Let's talk about stats and weapon ratios

[sox7d]

People keep saying "AC is broken" can someone ELI5 this? Half of people say that it's the best stat, others say it's worthless after like +50 or some shit.

How much of a difference does ATK make? Does anyone have any good evidence or DPS parsing concerning this?

Weapon ratio rating seem a bit fucked to me. On the wiki, they are ranked by their ratio, implying that 1 dmg = 1 dly. However, Wurmslayer (0.62) is technically as powerful as Swiftwind (0.62). Meanwhile, Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) only has two more damage than Jade Mace (9/18). I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[zanderklocke]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/i-feel-like-im-taking-crazy-pills.gif

[radditsu]

Ratio unless you are tanking. Fuck the rest

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Ratio unless you are tanking. Fuck the rest

To an extent. Mainhand speed is key due to flat damage bonus based on level. It applies more often. Offhand is pure ratio.

[Juevento]

I've noticed that you see bumps in dmg at different threshold attack levels. For example, if I get my attack above 1250, my dmg output goes through the roof compared with an attack rating slightly lower than 1250.

As for weapon ratio, I haven't done a full study on this yet, but my belief (supported by the evidence I've seen from my parses) is that for two weapons with the same dmg/dly ratios, the lower delay weapon will out damage the higher delay weapon. This is due to the non-linear scaling nature of baseline dmg of each weapon.

So for your example Swiftwind should out damage a wurmslayer because it's got more chances to swing and should output more base damage.

There are a bunch of crazy people who think this works differently, but I haven't seen any evidence contrary to my belief.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I've noticed that you see bumps in dmg at different threshold attack levels. For example, if I get my attack above 1250, my dmg output goes through the roof compared with an attack rating slightly lower than 1250.

As for weapon ratio, I haven't done a full study on this yet, but my belief (supported by the evidence I've seen from my parses) is that for two weapons with the same dmg/dly ratios, the lower delay weapon will out damage the higher delay weapon. This is due to the non-linear scaling nature of baseline dmg of each weapon.

So for your example Swiftwind should out damage a wurmslayer because it's got more chances to swing and should output more base damage.

There are a bunch of crazy people who think this works differently, but I haven't seen any evidence contrary to my belief.

I can't speak to +atk but for mainhand speed has a place in the preference calculation due to applying the flat damage bonus of 1 handers based on level more often.

[Juryiel]

I've noticed that you see bumps in dmg at different threshold attack levels. For example, if I get my attack above 1250, my dmg output goes through the roof compared with an attack rating slightly lower than 1250.

As for weapon ratio, I haven't done a full study on this yet, but my belief (supported by the evidence I've seen from my parses) is that for two weapons with the same dmg/dly ratios, the lower delay weapon will out damage the higher delay weapon. This is due to the non-linear scaling nature of baseline dmg of each weapon.

So for your example Swiftwind should out damage a wurmslayer because it's got more chances to swing and should output more base damage.

There are a bunch of crazy people who think this works differently, but I haven't seen any evidence contrary to my belief.

How does this work with things like haste? My first round as a melee so I never worried about this stuff before. Haste seems to be a percentage so shouldn't it in theory improve the ratio of a higher delay weapon more than that of a lower delay weapon?

[Ando]

Haste seems to be a percentage so shouldn't it in theory improve the ratio of a higher delay weapon more than that of a lower delay weapon?

No.

[Ciroco]

How does this work with things like haste? My first round as a melee so I never worried about this stuff before. Haste seems to be a percentage so shouldn't it in theory improve the ratio of a higher delay weapon more than that of a lower delay weapon?

Let's say you have a 9/18 weapon and a 18/36 weapon. Identical ratio, and if they're in your offhand, identical DPS.
Then you acquire 100% haste. The 9/18 weapon becomes 9/9, and the 18/36 weapon becomes 18/18. Still identical ratio.

[Ravager]

How does this work with things like haste? My first round as a melee so I never worried about this stuff before. Haste seems to be a percentage so shouldn't it in theory improve the ratio of a higher delay weapon more than that of a lower delay weapon?

Seems like it should, but if you do the math, they come out the same. Which means, rogues are paying way too much for the shitty Green Jade Axe. It's the same ratio as Crystalline Short Sword, but at level 50 it gives you -20hp (-35hp at 60) and quite a bit less push. The PR is really only useful for Trak, and rogues get so much PR anyway, equiping a better ratio off hand will always be preferable.

So, rogues, save yourself several thousand plat and get CSS if you can't afford Seb Dirk or better.

[Ciroco]

Weapon ratio rating seem a bit fucked to me. On the wiki, they are ranked by their ratio, implying that 1 dmg = 1 dly. However, Wurmslayer (0.62) is technically as powerful as Swiftwind (0.62). Meanwhile, Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) only has two more damage than Jade Mace (9/18). I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Ratio is just given on the Wiki because there are too many variables to list weapons in order of mainhand DPS. But if a Wurmslayer was equippable in offhand, it would be basically the same DPS as a Swiftwind (ignoring the haste and attack effects).

Swiftblade of Zek blows Jade Mace away because two extra damage on a weapon that fast is obviously far more powerful than 2 extra damage on a slow weapon.

[MaksimMazor]

Join TMO and loot rotting VP weapons.

[Juryiel]

Oh right, that was dumb, it improves the delay by a larger absolute amount but that doesn't matter as the relative ratios stay the same. Thanks.

[Ravager]

Join TMO and loot rotting VP weapons.

But TMO doesn't believe in handouts.

[MaksimMazor]

earn the right to loot said rotting weapons*

[Juevento]

But the best rogue weapons aren't from VP...

[Ravager]

earn the right to loot said rotting weapons*

Nice save.

[Cecily]

Here you go OP. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zpdYXrsDbofuQnDbkEKDDNgLjzQEOAUBMdQoqS-8fhE/edit?usp=sharing)

Punch in values in green boxes.

[MaksimMazor]

But the best rogue weapons aren't from VP...

Confirmed wrong

[Splorf22]

Have you parsed thornstinger vs ragebringer? Although I have to imagine that the aggro on thornstinger would be pretty annoying.

[MaksimMazor]

RB/RSSS combo is superior to all

[isiah]

Any stats with these blurts?

[Tikker]

I wouldn't mind seeing that parse, but BS damage is such a huge part of total rogue dps, I think epic would still pull ahead

[Juevento]

Backstab dmg is usually about 35-40% of rogue DPS.

I can post some parses later tonight.

[Cecily]

Thornstinger + Epic can potentially murder Epic + RSSS, doesn't happen often. Although they are a close weapon combo, RSSS is
preferred by people who have both, like myself.

[isiah]

Cecily, you mention TS + RB can murder the other respective combo. In which instances is this the case?

[MaksimMazor]

In an instance when a rogue is not backstabbing

[Clark]

Rb primary always!!

[Gaffin 7.0]

i prefer bloodpoint over ragebringer :rolleyes:

[Cecily]

Cecily, you mention TS + RB can murder the other respective combo. In which instances is this the case?

I'm pretty sure it happens when you get a lucky string of duelist max melee hits. I'm trying to find a parse on Phara Dar where I had TS equipped by accident and smoked everyone else by a huge margin.

Druushk in 29s, 35k @1223dps :: Cecily 4k @180dps (12.17%) :: Hujiko 3k @128dps (9.78%) :: Skew 3k @143dps (9.68%) :: Gunnter 3k @96dps (7.6%) :: Barlow 3k @104dps (7.59%) :: Kingore 2k @98dps (6.91%) :: Fundo 2k @85dps (6.46%) :: Remnence 2k @74dps (5.21%) :: Kautin 2k @68dps (5.18%) :: Lonegin 2k @75dps (5.06%)

Druushk actually. There you go folks, scientific proof that TS was better in this one fight. Huji was actually using a lame Jagged Blade of Mourning for 2nd place, with 3rd and 4th place being RB/RSSS rogues. The only conclusion you'll really get is that, besides epic, Kunark weapons suck. You'll see bigger damage gaps between weapons in Velious for sure.

[Ele]

And the fact duelist lasts for 1/3-1/2 the engage time.

[Gaffin 7.0]

fuckkk thornstinger

[Cecily]

I was fairly disappointed by how TS performed on extended fights. This is an avatared gabo with RB + Claws of Lightning vs 2x TS + RB without avatar early beta testing.

Eashen of the Sky in 232s, 116k @501dps :: Gabobrik 24k @106dps (20.39%) :: Cecily 13k @60dps (11.3%) :: Fundo 12k @55dps (10.16%)

Yeah Gabo has a far superior offhand and avatar, but Fundo and I just simply parsed miserably with that weapon setup. Nothing conclusive because buff conditions weren't ideal (don't think we had CoP buff either), but this parse was enough to make me bag TS for anything but solo.

------

Not sure on buffs for this fight.. but it's clear that RB + RSSS (fundo / me) performs much better on long fights.

Derakor the Vindicator in 287s, 186k @648dps :: Fundo 23k @83dps (12.59%) :: Gabobrik 23k @82dps (12.49%) :: Cecily 22k @76dps (11.58%)

[Gaffin 7.0]

common sense people, parses for weapons arent really needed till Luclin.

[Cecily]

Well I think it becomes a bigger issue in Velious. Do you use a 13 20 over Ragebringer mainhand? Durr yeah for Primal, but for a HoH? Do you use a 13 18 Serrated Dragon Tooth over Rage? I would think definitely yes for the 13 18, but don't have anything to back that up. And I would lean towards no for a 13 20.

Are a pair of post epics and 41% haste superior to a post epic + epic without vengeance gear? I don't know the answers to these questions and I think parsing is gonna be a way bigger factor in my gameplay.

[Gaffin 7.0]

The research is already out there if you dig for it. That takes the fun away though and I know you love to parse shit cecily, I did too time to time, its something to do.

[Gaffin 7.0]

Overall for boss fights nothing is going to top ragebringer even in Velious to answer your question with a Primal offhand

[MaksimMazor]

The 40* ATK from epic supersedes any other choice

[Cecily]

40*

[Cecily]

From what I remember, it was 41% haste, 1500 ATK, and a pair of better ratio weapons (15 20ish stuff) to bag RB. But was that 1500 from all worn atk gear or... ugh been a very long time and I have so little desire to research.

[MaksimMazor]

I'll be glad to bag my RB for Vulak/Tunare dagger combo, sign me up.

[Cecily]

That's what I'm saying, but you won't have any Veng X arms to cover you. Will AoB gear stack? That's something I'm really curious about.

[MaksimMazor]

From what I hear, yes

[Cecily]

GDI have to keep factioning goblins then.

[Gaffin 7.0]

AoB worn and click stacks. And yeah atk > other vel weps. RB and Primal is so deadly and only thing that will be close is the Vulak and Tunare combo. I still think it is a very minor upgrade though and end game weapons. Dagger is rare as fuck.

[Tikker]

I know we started offhand epic for primal

Epic Def didn't get bagged until luclin tho

That being said we never got a tuna re dagger until luclin and only saw maybe 2 vulak daggers ever

[Adolphus]

People keep saying "AC is broken" can someone ELI5 this? Half of people say that it's the best stat, others say it's worthless after like +50 or some shit.

How much of a difference does ATK make? Does anyone have any good evidence or DPS parsing concerning this?

Weapon ratio rating seem a bit fucked to me. On the wiki, they are ranked by their ratio, implying that 1 dmg = 1 dly. However, Wurmslayer (0.62) is technically as powerful as Swiftwind (0.62). Meanwhile, Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) only has two more damage than Jade Mace (9/18). I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I'll agree with everything that Cecily is saying about Rogue and weapon stats. And in general, weapon dmg and ratio is exponentially more important than any other stats in this game. For melees, a player can literally be naked with the exception of decent weapons and still fulfill their role in the group/raid when compared to fully geared min-max whores.

That's really a testament to Everquest's fundamental flaw with regard to the stat system more than anything else. This flaw being that Verant had no experience or understanding from which to draw from regarding MMO stat systems. EQ was quite literally the first game of it's kind, so the game design was really a shot in the dark and a "best guess" where the developers made things up on the spot as they went.

My take with regards to stats in a more specific sense:

AGI: almost completely worthless with the exception of aiding dodge skill (slightly)

DEX: almost completely worthless with he exception of helping procs and bow hits. Maybe some value for bards regarding songs (need actual proof I even accept this)

AC: completely worthless here, period (I don't care how it's justified by anyone, the result is the same: it's worthless). Logs and parsing show this to be true. It worked to a degree on live, but even then it was way underpowered from where it should have been.

ATTK: Still unknown how it works. Appears completely worthless.

WIS/INT: Additional Mana based on level

STA: Additional HP based on level

CHA: Affects charm and merchant prices (by laughably low amounts)

STR: Slightly affects hit dmg, Most useful for Rogues because it affects backstab to a significant degree. Also how much a player can carry.


TLDR: Weapon\s matter. Other stats have hardly any impact at all unless it's class specific stuff like cha/charm, str/backstab, dex/proc etc. And even then, not having stats isn't going to stop a player from fulfilling their role in a group/raid.

[Tikker]

ATK only really matters in comparison to mobs AC (at least on live)

you could really see that in Luclin where mob AC went thru the roof (in part to justify vengeance effect on armour)

[Leopaz]

Sigh, and I browsed each page hoping to see info about AC. Anyone wanna answer that part?

[Adolphus]

Sigh, and I browsed each page hoping to see info about AC. Anyone wanna answer that part?



<snip>

AC: completely worthless here, period (I don't care how it's justified by anyone, the result is the same: it's worthless). Logs and parsing show this to be true. It worked to a degree on live, but even then it was way underpowered from where it should have been.

<snip>



See ginormous thread below regarding AC problems with developer acknowledgement and responses

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148089

/resolved (hopefully)

[Clark]

The 40* ATK from epic supersedes any other choice

[sox7d]

I'd like to find 4 weapons along these lines and do a test to see if -1 dly = 1 damage.


Find a 2h with say... 30/40 and then parse its dps compared to a 2h with 30/38 or 30/42

then find a 2h with whatever, 35/45, parse it and compare it to a weapon with a damage delta of 2, (33/45...37/45) and see how both things measure up.


I feel like +1 damage is much more valuable than -1 delay, but the ratio golden rule says a 10/20 weapons= = 20/40 weapon, not factoring in main hand damage bonus

[Tecmos Deception]

Weapon ratio rating seem a bit fucked to me. On the wiki, they are ranked by their ratio, implying that 1 dmg = 1 dly. However, Wurmslayer (0.62) is technically as powerful as Swiftwind (0.62). Meanwhile, Swiftblade of Zek (11/18) only has two more damage than Jade Mace (9/18). I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I think you need to do general reading about eq melee, haste, etc.

[Cecily]

Yeah, I'm not explaining it.