Raid Suspension: Azure Guard

[Sirken]

Azure Guard is under raid suspension until 12:00 AM Eastern on June 2nd, for violating the following raid policy:
Class R guilds may kill a Class R, Class C, or FFA mob spawned at any time with the following restrictions:
Successfully killing a mob spawned under Class R puts that guild on lockout for that mob's next two class R spawns.

Azure Guard slew Trakanon on May 4th, and then partook in the May 20th Trakanon slaying, while they were still on lockout from Trakanon as that was the second class R spawn since their May 4th slaying.

Azure Guard's Loot from last kill will be deleted.

[Pint]

Can class R unanimously vote to waive azure guards suspension?

[arsenalpow]

BDA votes to waive it.

[bktroost]

Azure Guard checked your raid tracker before agreeing to assist Europa in the kill and we had no lockouts. A simple math check and some checking in would have told us how many Traks spawned since then. I was gone for a week and since there was no (lockouts) by our name I assumed there must have been a repop while I was out of state. We did it in the spirit of keeping all the guilds on the raid scene even when their mobs spawn in horrible timers, willingly giving away our chance at the next couple R Trakanons. I'm okay with whatever happens, but please do not take away Europa's Trak guts. They earned those and I would HATE to be the cause of anything happening to their first Trak guts drop.

[Powtle]

Since it did no harm to any R-guilds, why the Staff feels obligated to interfere?
Any R-guild petitioned?
Europa votes to waive it too.

[Artaenc]

Yea, I think it should be waived.

[jpetrick]

Indignation has no problem with what Azure Guard did and would like the suspension to be lifted

[Dentalplan]

Divinity is in favor of waiving the suspension

[Powtle]

None of A-Team officers has yet the right to post here alas but on Cobblestone behalf I'll say that A-Team votes for waiving the suspension too.

[Powtle]

I'd like to add that following the new Staff policy (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149040) I guess a R-guild filled a raid-dispute petition right?
I mean, why here the Staff would intervene on its own, but when there is a FTE KS or any other rule breaking a proper petition should be needed (in last resort)?
Well, maybe a R-guild petitioned, can we know?

[arsenalpow]

I doubt any guild petitioned. I'm sure there are mechanisms in place that send up a flag when a locked out guild kills a raid target that they are locked out on. The mitigating circumstances are that the lockout wasn't showing the proper guilds. That issue along with the rest of class R being in full support of AG should clear them of any punishment imo.

If the goal is to make guilds communicate with one another and solve any issues then let class R manage themselves.

[Sirken]

while its very admirable that you guys are willing to do this, you operate out of Class R, which means there are certain restrictions in place that may not apply to the more competitive class (Class C).

the entire reason that the lockout exists is to prevent guilds from just stock piling pixels without any actual competition.

and so in short, the lockout can not be waived or avoided.

[arsenalpow]

while its very admirable that you guys are willing to do this, you operate out of Class R, which means there are certain restrictions in place that may not apply to the more competitive class (Class C).

the entire reason that the lockout exists is to prevent guilds from just stock piling pixels without any actual competition.

and so in short, the lockout can not be waived or avoided.

Good thing they aren't stockpiling pixels then. They were assisting another guild (cooperation!) and were unaware that they were still locked out since Rogean had to manually reset the list since the non 7 day targets weren't updating properly (not their fault!)

You want us to manage ourselves and talk it out? We're doing that. You haven't heard a peep from class R (except me in your PM box) and instead you have to go play referee for IB and TMO every Saturday/Sunday.

[Powtle]

Ok so the lockout rule is 100% automatic and do not follow a single word from the Statute of Limitations on Raid Disputes (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149040) post.
It's a super-rule from the P99's constitution.

[Sirken]

Good thing they aren't stockpiling pixels then. They were assisting another guild (cooperation!) and were unaware that they were still locked out since Rogean had to manually reset the list since the non 7 day targets weren't updating properly (not their fault!)

You want us to manage ourselves and talk it out? We're doing that. You haven't heard a peep from class R (except me in your PM box) and instead you have to go play referee for IB and TMO every Saturday/Sunday.



I cleared the lockouts for Trak and Maestro, and set them to their correct Class effective right now.

Guilds should know if they're locked out and still follow it.

[arsenalpow]

stuff
And the tool to know if you're locked out was on the fritz. AG did some back of the envelope math and figured they were clear. I think it had been like two weeks since their previous kill so it's plausible to think they were ok to engage.

This wasn't a malicious calculated attempt to skirt the rules (oh hey IB, sup with that fish monster) it was a series of unfortunate circumstances that should be chalked up to an honest mistake. Plus you've been driving towards player based resolution and the players from class R agreed that it wasn't a malicious attack on the rules.

[Sirken]

And the tool to know if you're locked out was on the fritz. AG did some back of the envelope math and figured they were clear. I think it had been like two weeks since their previous kill so it's plausible to think they were ok to engage.

This wasn't a malicious calculated attempt to skirt the rules (oh hey IB, sup with that fish monster) it was a series of unfortunate circumstances that should be chalked up to an honest mistake. Plus you've been driving towards player based resolution and the players from class R agreed that it wasn't a malicious attack on the rules.

i see youre having that problem again where u just skip over what the other guy said and went back to smashing buttons on your keyboard,

I cleared the lockouts for Trak and Maestro, and set them to their correct Class effective right now. Guilds should know if they're locked out and still follow it.


Dearest Chest, if you do not want restrictions on you, then you should not be in the Restricted Class.

<3
Sirks

[Powtle]

Dearest Sirken you're not responding to our questions either. And keep quoting Rogean where it has nothing to do with the "no R-guild is complaining" issue.
When will you quote Derubael's pos (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149040)t? It's not applying here?

What's the problem when no R-guild is complaining about the issue?
Where do you respond to this Chest quote?
"Plus you've been driving towards player based resolution and the players from class R agreed that it wasn't a malicious attack on the rules."

[arsenalpow]

i see youre having that problem again where u just skip over what the other guy said and went back to smashing buttons on your keyboard,




Dearest Chest, if you do not want restrictions on you, then you should not be in the Restricted Class.

<3
Sirks

Since you dislike me and refuse to actually read what I say let me carefully clarify my position which happens to be the position of the rest of the class R guilds. I acknowledge the bolded portion of your Rogean quote. Azure Guard definitely killed Trakanon while assisting Europa while locked out. In the most black and white terms they are guilty of that infraction. However, there was a mitigating circumstance being that the lockout list was manually reset.

But Chest, they should have known they were locked out! Well how should they know, is there a system in place to assure them of their locked-outness? Yes, the system that wasn't functioning at the time. There's no log of this system either, there's no way for them to go back and calculate how many times Trak had died to figure it out themselves. I'm sure your records will indicate the length of time between AG Trak kills and one could assume that a guesstimate could be made by looking at that length of time it could have possible that AG was no longer locked out.

AG didn't maliciously break the rules. The system in place to govern their ability to engage the mob failed. That needs to be taken into account.

[Powtle]

What I don't get is why an FTE KS is not an automatic ban and this lockout infraction is.

[arsenalpow]

What I don't get is why an FTE KS is not an automatic ban and this lockout infraction is automatic?

That's an entirely different conversation. Let's not talk that in this thread.

[Powtle]

I don't see how it's offtopic. AG should not be banned if no R-guild complained, that's pretty simple.

[Derubael]

There are two reasons why the lockout system specifically needs to be enforced regardless of whether or not the other guilds in Class R would like to waive a petition:

1) Class R, being the "entry class" by its very nature has no limit to the number of potential participants on each target. By that I mean RandomnewguildX decides they want to kill a Trakanon - they are most likely going to go after a Class R Trak. Was <Insert New Guild Name Here> sitting outside the entrance to Seb getting ready to mobilize on Trakanon while AG and Europa engaged? No, probably not, but they could have been mobilizing somewhere, and there's no way to know what would have happened if Europa had needed to tag that dragon alone. We need to keep the Class itself open to the entire server when it comes to killing Class R mobs.

2) The lockout system is in place specifically because being in Class R is supposed to put you at a disadvantage - Class Restricted - we had really wanted to encourage some class mobility (even though we knew this would probably never happen) and clearly make "the more difficult class" the "more profitable class" due to its competitive and challenging nature. We had briefly considered making lockout violations something that could be waived if the other guilds agreed but quickly decided against it. That would quickly dissolve the lockout system entirely once everyone started making agreements with each other over who gets what, and then the entire system becomes less accessible for new guilds and removes a large part of the motivation for moving to Class C.

That is why the lockout system specifically gets enforced and can't be waived. In regards to the board being down/malfunctioning, AG could have easily checked with the staff before or even after the kill if they were worried that maybe they were crossing a lockout. I would rather have a guild come ask us how many times mob X has been killed since their lockout started when the board is down than to have them kill targets they aren't supposed to be killing.

[arsenalpow]

There are two reasons why the lockout system specifically needs to be enforced regardless of whether or not the other guilds in Class R would like to waive a petition:

1) Class R, being the "entry class" by its very nature has no limit to the number of potential participants on each target. By that I mean RandomnewguildX decides they want to kill a Trakanon - they are most likely going to go after a Class R Trak. Was <Insert New Guild Name Here> sitting outside the entrance to Seb getting ready to mobilize on Trakanon while AG and Europa engaged? No, probably not, but they could have been mobilizing somewhere, and there's no way to know what would have happened if Europa had needed to tag that dragon alone. We need to keep the Class itself open to the entire server when it comes to killing Class R mobs.

2) The lockout system is in place specifically because being in Class R is supposed to put you at a disadvantage - Class Restricted - we had really wanted to encourage some class mobility (even though we knew this would probably never happen) and clearly make "the more difficult class" the "more profitable class" due to its competitive and challenging nature. We had briefly considered making lockout violations something that could be waived if the other guilds agreed but quickly decided against it. That would quickly dissolve the lockout system entirely once everyone started making agreements with each other over who gets what, and then the entire system becomes less accessible for new guilds and removes a large part of the motivation for moving to Class C.

That is why the lockout system specifically gets enforced and can't be waived. In regards to the board being down/malfunctioning, AG could have easily checked with the staff before or even after the kill if they were worried that maybe they were crossing a lockout. I would rather have a guild come ask us how many times mob X has been killed since their lockout started when the board is down than to have them kill targets they aren't supposed to be killing.

I don't think contacting the staff is an option with a time sensitive scenario like this. You've both been pretty MIA lately, and it is what it is, but when the system to let you know if a lockout is active or not is malfunctioning there isn't another way to figure it out.

[bktroost]

Azure Guard understands the situation and the implication of redacting a sentence just because the rest of class R agrees to it. That sets a precedence that can easily be manipulated. We thank you for the short longevity of the sentence and realize that it is indeed possible for us to have figured out how often Trakanon popped had we the time to do so. I was out of town and usually handle inter-guild politics. When the request came to ally I quickly checked the raid page and replied with a "sure thing, we'll be there for you." We certainly didn't try to gain the system or manipulate anything in any way. This is us apologizing for not being better stewards of our resources.

Thank you Chest for arguing Class R and Class C raid scene policy discrepancies, but as Deru stated, the server staff favor the Class C guilds and permit them certain privileges we do not have as a reward for being the more competitive class. This is new information for us as a group and we'll have to consider this in the future when disputes arise.

[Funkutron5000]

I just want to say Kudos to AG for taking this with grace. It's rare that a guild gets slapped (with a pretty lame suspension, IMHO) and takes it on the chin without bitching. Tip of the cap, boys and girls. It's also pretty cool to see the Class R guilds rally around and try to fight it. The cooperation between you all is both respectable and admirable.

But, like Sirks and Deru said, if the rules are there for a reason and if they don't enforce them, the whole thing falls apart rather quickly.

[Derubael]

the server staff favor the Class C guilds and permit them certain privileges we do not have as a reward for being the more competitive class. This is new information for us as a group and we'll have to consider this in the future when disputes arise.

I think you misunderstood, or I'm misunderstanding your message here. The only privilege Class C is awarded is no lockouts. Other than that the two Classes are largely the same. The lockout mechanic is what differentiates and defines the two classes, and we don't want the option to waive that mechanic to be available for the reasons stated above.

[arsenalpow]

I just want to say Kudos to AG for taking this with grace. It's rare that a guild gets slapped (with a pretty lame suspension, IMHO) and takes it on the chin without bitching. Tip of the cap, boys and girls. It's also pretty cool to see the Class R guilds rally around and try to fight it. The cooperation between you all is both respectable and admirable.

But, like Sirks and Deru said, if the rules are there for a reason and if they don't enforce them, the whole thing falls apart rather quickly.

Well technically their logic is flawed. It's a slippery slope fallacy. No one disagreed that a rule was broken, what I'm arguing is that mitigating circumstances need to be taken into account. Everyone seems to agree that it's a pretty poor use of the disciplinary system considering the factors involved. A-Team was briefly suspended and the mitigating circumstances were used to waive the suspension.

Common sense needs to be the barometer here. Intent means something. The black and white letter of the law shit needs to stop. Black and white is fine for settling FTE disputes but this is an entirely different situation. The intent wasn't malicious and the system in place to determine lockouts was down. Yes, Rogean said "know if you're locked out" but outside of the raid policy page what means did AG have of determining their ability to engage Trak? They could have asked a staff member but with something that time sensitive it seems unlikely that a response would have been received in time.

[arsenalpow]

I think you misunderstood, or I'm misunderstanding your message here. The only privilege Class C is awarded is no lockouts. Other than that the two Classes are largely the same. The lockout mechanic is what differentiates and defines the two classes, and we don't want the option to waive that mechanic to be available for the reasons stated above.

Again, we aren't attempting to waive the mechanic to circumvent the system entirely, we want to waive this incident due to the extenuating circumstances that have been discussed ad nauseam.

[bktroost]

I think you misunderstood, or I'm misunderstanding your message here. The only privilege Class C is awarded is no lockouts. Other than that the two Classes are largely the same. The lockout mechanic is what differentiates and defines the two classes, and we don't want the option to waive that mechanic to be available for the reasons stated above.

I am referring to the advantage of being considered a competitive class and how that innately has an standard for entry. That standard provides them with an additional ability in raid disputes. As stated on the forums by yourself and Sirken in disputes past, guilds are encouraged to come to an equitable solution for all parties before involving GM staff.

I am personally unconvinced that class R should not have some form of standard for qualification-- there are any number of guilds that are incapable of killing Trak, Gore, or even Fayd-- but they are considered class R guilds by default. As you have already said, due to our nature that still means they would have to agree even if they are not physically present. I understand the dilemma, the cause for it and your reasoning behind your decision to allow this privilege to Class C. My comment was not intended to be a rhetorical attack by any means. Its just the way it is with our current set up.

[williestargell]

A kill while under Lockout will appear automatically in a report to GM's from my understanding, nobody needs to petition it for it to come to their attention.