Pet Commands and Pet Pulling Not Correct

[Ikonoclastia]

The issue with Chardok AEO and pet pulling has been bugging me ever since it came up. So I did a little research and this is what I found:

1. Chase range was definitely an issue which is not classically represented here. I believe that chase range prevented pulling the way that its used to pull most of Chardok to zone for AOE. I haven't been able to find evidence of this unfortunately.

2. Pet pulling is not correctly implemented. Pet pulling would not have worked on live because pet /attack command is just a /say pet attack as are all the other commands for pets other than follow and pet go away possibly. I cant' recall if you had to run back to where you left your pet to issue the follow and go away command but I think initially you did.

There was a /zone wide /pet kill %t command but that was done away with to be inline with the /say range.

Velious Era Comments - will search up some more evidence when I have time

shakana -- posted 05-15-2001 01:18 PM Datay, I'm not sure what abbrevations you are talking about...in this thread in particular or elsewhere?
Psych_, you don't need to target your pet in order to command it to do stuff (attack, back off, etc). You do however have to be within a certain distance range of your pet, he can't hear you if you are too far away.

LiLOLMe -- posted 05-15-2001 12:56 PM "/pet target" will target your pet. Hitting the F1 key twice will also. You don't have to have your pet targeted to issue commands. They just need to be "within range". Seems about 'voice' distance.

(Comment: the /pet commands are actually recognized on the server as /say commands that don't get broadcast. So a /say command then a /pet command acts like two /say commands and one gets filtered out.)

https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/macro-101.27806/page-2

I think the most important line though is this one:

The range at which a pet will respond to your commands has been doubled.
http://www.reocities.com/TimesSquare/bunker/9915/download/everquest_manual.doc <= Original Everquest Manual released in 1999.

This proves rather than the current zone wide pet commands, that there was a limited pet command range.

[Uuruk]

sweeping that under the rug

[Jimjam]

On reading the title of this thread, I was reminded of a type of pet pulling I had forgotten about.

Does anyone remember using a low level pet to split a cluster of mobs?

If you pulled a mob by attacking it with a weak pet, and that mob was able to kill the pet in one round of attacks, the mob would call not be able to call assist properly so wouldn't bring it's friends with it.

I remember this being in the game at least as late as POP, does anyone remember it being discovered/possible in classic/kunark/velious eras?

[Ikonoclastia]

On reading the title of this thread, I was reminded of a type of pet pulling I had forgotten about.

Does anyone remember using a low level pet to split a cluster of mobs?

If you pulled a mob by attacking it with a weak pet, and that mob was able to kill the pet in one round of attacks, the mob would call not be able to call assist properly so wouldn't bring it's friends with it.

I remember this being in the game at least as late as POP, does anyone remember it being discovered/possible in classic/kunark/velious eras?
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=1&mid=115807777760493578
Not sure if green pet pulling was in in classic though. May have been something added accidentally at some time during the expansions. Removed in 2006 though.

[lurk]

Pet pulling was a side effect of pets being made beta neutral.

In classic you could /pet kill phinigel or whatever to see if the mob is up but the range the pet would attack was pretty small.

I used to solo Overking in chardok by pet pulling. Interesting thing about that is the overking was out of range for the pet to attack, but if you used and eye of zomm to target a closer sarnark, hit pet attack, then back off and guard before he got there this puts pet in range to attack overking or even queen.

TLDR: the range for a pet to attack a mob is the range between the pet and the mob not between the PC and the mob.

[Swish]

Duck cancelling spells needs taking out... nobody shouting about that though are they?

[Ikonoclastia]

Duck cancelling spells needs taking out... nobody shouting about that though are they?
Duck cancelling casting? AFAIK always did. But you could do the same thing by moving a bit anyway. Most importantly it doesn't allow you to do what unlimited range pet commands do.

[mrmop520]

The range is definitely not unlimited. In PoSky we've run into issues where a parked pet on a different island is not able to attack from far off islands.

[Ikonoclastia]

The range is definitely not unlimited. In PoSky we've run into issues where a parked pet on a different island is not able to attack from far off islands.
well yesterday I parked a pet at a merchant near west commons zoneline, then ran all the way to zoneline at Freeport (this is in East Commons), used pet attack and he attacked so its close to zonewide, maybe PoS is huge can't remember.

Definitely a lot more than say distance atm.

[BlkCamel]

On reading the title of this thread, I was reminded of a type of pet pulling I had forgotten about.

Does anyone remember using a low level pet to split a cluster of mobs?

If you pulled a mob by attacking it with a weak pet, and that mob was able to kill the pet in one round of attacks, the mob would call not be able to call assist properly so wouldn't bring it's friends with it.

I remember this being in the game at least as late as POP, does anyone remember it being discovered/possible in classic/kunark/velious eras?

I did this on live pre-velious. Used green pet to pull Di'zok for my Jade Prod. A green pet to the mob was all that was required. Mob would not call assist when fighting a pet so low level it conned green to him. It was taken out eventually as mentioned but was always an option in Kunark and into Velious. It was not super effective though because pet was so low level it would die fast and if it died within range of enemies the new agro on the pet owner would pull the adds. You had to buff pet with everything you had just to make sure he lived through the pull.

[BlkCamel]

Here is notes mentioning the changes to the call for help command that was made in 2005 about a future patch, it mentions these are long standing issues that were going to be patched out.

http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3047

Another post in 2006 discussing this tactic proving it was viable prior to this time line

http://samanna.net/3u/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2072&p=32430

[BlkCamel]

just realized this is in server chat should be moved to bugs so an actual report/response can be made, I request mod to move or OP to re-post in bugs.

[Ikonoclastia]

just realized this is in server chat should be moved to bugs so an actual report/response can be made, I request mod to move or OP to re-post in bugs.
Yeah I put it in here to get some feedback prior to posting in bugs. See what people thought or whether the had other evidence which showed it to be incorrect.

[Jimjam]

I did this on live pre-velious. Used green pet to pull Di'zok for my Jade Prod. A green pet to the mob was all that was required. Mob would not call assist when fighting a pet so low level it conned green to him. It was taken out eventually as mentioned but was always an option in Kunark and into Velious. It was not super effective though because pet was so low level it would die fast and if it died within range of enemies the new agro on the pet owner would pull the adds. You had to buff pet with everything you had just to make sure he lived through the pull.

Ah, thanks for correcting my half-remembered details :D

Yea, should try getting this in to a bug thread, I doubt if this will be a priority update though.

[Deltaloko]

Green pet pulling lasted into at least PoP, and I think into OoW...

[pasi]

Green pet pulling was not a thing while pets alone could proximity aggro NPCs. The rationale for this should be very obvious.

In addition, use of green pet pulling required feign death.

For those not savvy on the trick.

1) You FD'd with a lower level pet.
2) You /pet attacked.
3) You either spammed /pet back or /pet hold (pet discipline) then /pet back

NPCs will not assist the aggroed NPC provided both
A) the pet is a low enough level
B) the pet does not attacks the NPC.

Pet discipline allowed you to stand up immediately after the pet aggroed because it ensured the pet would not attack back. Players without this AA would have to remain FDd and spam /pet back.

The NPC only gets assistance on the pet's attacks. If the player is FDed while the pet attacks and the pet is low enough level, the NPC will not get social assistance.

In combination with bestow divine aura, this allowed for pulling single NPCs virtually anywhere without adds. It also gave a lot of PvE value to a blood orchid katana for SKs.

[iruinedyourday]

Duck cancelling spells needs taking out... nobody shouting about that though are they?

I played this game since day one and always remember duck casting, I hear people say they think it wasnt classic, wich one us is cray?!

Ill swear up and down it was in. I mean I quit right after vel came out, and I Know it existed at some point, so that means it couldn't possibly be anything but classic, right? So why does anyone say its not classic?

[Ikonoclastia]

I played this game since day one and always remember duck casting, I hear people say they think it wasnt classic, wich one us is cray?!

Ill swear up and down it was in. I mean I quit right after vel came out, and I Know it existed at some point, so that means it couldn't possibly be anything but classic, right? So why does anyone say its not classic?
I'm certain it was in classic too however 14 years is a long time so basically you have to find some evidence it was.

In the first post I linked the EQ manual which clearly shows in 1999 pets could only be commanded to a certain range. It didn't specify how far though. Just that pet command range was doubled on release. But then there were posts from mid 2001 (prior to Luclin) which has multiple people saying it was about /say range.

That's pretty good evidence of the classic mechanic. Though at some point which I'm not sure of there was a global /pet attack command which was removed at some further point.

So basically if you could duck and cancel spells in Velious that of course like you said doesn't mean you could do it in Kunark or classic but if no evidence exists to show otherwise I don't think it's correct to say it wasn't classic IMO.

[BlkCamel]

Green pet pulling was not a thing while pets alone could proximity aggro NPCs. The rationale for this should be very obvious.

In addition, use of green pet pulling required feign death.

For those not savvy on the trick.

1) You FD'd with a lower level pet.
2) You /pet attacked.
3) You either spammed /pet back or /pet hold (pet discipline) then /pet back

NPCs will not assist the aggroed NPC provided both
A) the pet is a low enough level
B) the pet does not attacks the NPC.

Pet discipline allowed you to stand up immediately after the pet aggroed because it ensured the pet would not attack back. Players without this AA would have to remain FDd and spam /pet back.

The NPC only gets assistance on the pet's attacks. If the player is FDed while the pet attacks and the pet is low enough level, the NPC will not get social assistance.

In combination with bestow divine aura, this allowed for pulling single NPCs virtually anywhere without adds. It also gave a lot of PvE value to a blood orchid katana for SKs.


You did not have to have feign death, read the links provided. They discuss shaman doing this and although some suggest fd many do without, including myself. The big trick was positioning pet on guard a distance back then standing back as far as you can tot ell pet to attack and have him do it. Then after pet attack you run backwards this should put you out or range of agro and pull successfully, The mechanic is discussed in detail about NPC to NPC interaction and the GREEN assist mechanic not working properly with pets, whether intentional or not it is classic.

*** pet pull back was not mentioned previously but yes the proximity would agro mob and that would cause pet to not call for help when assisting on green pet, idea was so fippy wouldn't be ganked by 50 mobs but just 1. I didn't mention it because its a requisite to the pull, ie that's the point, gotta call pet back and he has to live so you don't get agro from adds

[BlkCamel]

I'm certain it was in classic too however 14 years is a long time so basically you have to find some evidence it was.

In the first post I linked the EQ manual which clearly shows in 1999 pets could only be commanded to a certain range. It didn't specify how far though. Just that pet command range was doubled on release. But then there were posts from mid 2001 (prior to Luclin) which has multiple people saying it was about /say range.

That's pretty good evidence of the classic mechanic. Though at some point which I'm not sure of there was a global /pet attack command which was removed at some further point.

So basically if you could duck and cancel spells in Velious that of course like you said doesn't mean you could do it in Kunark or classic but if no evidence exists to show otherwise I don't think it's correct to say it wasn't classic IMO.

the posts and links i provided give proof that pet attack command was based on range as well. Same mechanics you are discussing are issues present in discussions on Samanna the shamans crucible. They have extensive archives and probably could help alot of people looking for classic data.

[Erati]

I played this game since day one and always remember duck casting, I hear people say they think it wasnt classic, wich one us is cray?!

Ill swear up and down it was in. I mean I quit right after vel came out, and I Know it existed at some point, so that means it couldn't possibly be anything but classic, right? So why does anyone say its not classic?

duck canceling your spells instantly was certainly not classic sir

you would be screwed if you casted the wrong spell, esp if you are a healer type and needing to do a quick heal and you started like a CH for example....you could not interrupt your spell before the casting time finished

the only thing you could do is run around jump and do things to make sure your spell didnt go off, but you would still have to wait the full cast time duration

same goes for item clicky spells, if you accidentally clicked one when you didnt want, there was no stopping it

I remember I dueled a fellow wizard once and I accidentally clicked my 'lure stick' from VP which has a 12-15 sec cast time ( cant remember ) ...suffice to say...I lost that duel as I just stood there casting this ridiculously long spell unable to do anything else while they just shrugged and nuked me. Afterwards I explained what happened and was embarrassed but they just laughed.

Ducking to instant interrupt changed the game completely as it brought in much more timing and skills, you screwed yourself way to easy from a simple mis- click before.

[Nirgon]

Ive noticed we dont have flying mounts

[Uteunayr]

Personally, I have a memory during classic (Pre-Kunark) of being taught to make macros such as /pet attack, /pet back off, and /pet guard from a necromancer killing the bard in the WFP Inn.

Either way, shouldn't this be posted in the bug forum for the devs to consider?

[Nirgon]

Duck casting can go right now, no need for a bug post

8)

[kaev]

duck canceling your spells instantly was certainly not classic sir

you would be screwed if you casted the wrong spell, esp if you are a healer type and needing to do a quick heal and you started like a CH for example....you could not interrupt your spell before the casting time finished

the only thing you could do is run around jump and do things to make sure your spell didnt go off, but you would still have to wait the full cast time duration

same goes for item clicky spells, if you accidentally clicked one when you didnt want, there was no stopping it

I remember I dueled a fellow wizard once and I accidentally clicked my 'lure stick' from VP which has a 12-15 sec cast time ( cant remember ) ...suffice to say...I lost that duel as I just stood there casting this ridiculously long spell unable to do anything else while they just shrugged and nuked me. Afterwards I explained what happened and was embarrassed but they just laughed.

Ducking to instant interrupt changed the game completely as it brought in much more timing and skills, you screwed yourself way to easy from a simple mis- click before.

Mostly, yeah. But running around, jumping, & etc. did nothing directly to interrupt your cast. If you were sitting or ducked when when cast finished it would interrupt. Also, if you ended in a different location than you started there would be a channelling check based on the distance between where you started the cast and where you finished it.

I remember a druid on Tunare who loved to start casting a port and then run in a circle around those being ported, almost always ending up close enough to the start of cast location so the cast would channel successfully. I remember players starting casts of spells with flashy effects and then running past the newbs in GFay just to show off (lots of higher level spells had fancier effects than lower level.) And clerics used to sit to catch a med tick while casting CHeal.

[Daldaen]

Duck casting can go right now, no need for a bug post

8)

Can't wait for them to fix the broken serverwide OOC and EXTREMELY broken group EXP calculations on red. They make the server almost unplayable right now due to how unclassic it is. Ruining my immersion so hard :/.

[Nikon]

Either way, shouldn't this be posted in the bug forum for the devs to consider?

Yeah I put it in here to get some feedback prior to posting in bugs. See what people thought or whether the had other evidence which showed it to be incorrect.

[Jimjam]

Green pet pulling was not a thing while pets alone could proximity aggro NPCs. The rationale for this should be very obvious.
Good point, although I guess it could in theory be used for non-KoS mobs?

[iruinedyourday]

Mostly, yeah. But running around, jumping, & etc. did nothing directly to interrupt your cast. If you were sitting or ducked when when cast finished it would interrupt. Also, if you ended in a different location than you started there would be a channelling check based on the distance between where you started the cast and where you finished it.

I remember a druid on Tunare who loved to start casting a port and then run in a circle around those being ported, almost always ending up close enough to the start of cast location so the cast would channel successfully. I remember players starting casts of spells with flashy effects and then running past the newbs in GFay just to show off (lots of higher level spells had fancier effects than lower level.) And clerics used to sit to catch a med tick while casting CHeal.

I remember zero of proximity casting, and 100% of duck casting stopping spell cast in classic. I quit after kunark launched. I played on Rallos Zek.

[Ikonoclastia]

Well remembering stuff from 1999 is pretty tough so evidence is best imo.

Cancelling spells

Ducking is the best way to cancel spells before you finish casting them. Feb 1 - 2002 (Right after Luclin)

http://www.gamewinners.com/Cheats/index.php/Everquest

This is pretty useful to, it seems more than likely that it was included in Luclin or post Luclin patch:

Ducking while casting cancels the spell. Due to a recent change, ducking now immediately cancels your current spell cast. If you find yourself in the middle of a long cast, you can rapidly hit your duck key twice and be ready to cast another spells or sit down to meditate Feb 1 - 2002 (Right after Luclin)

http://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html

[iruinedyourday]

there is zero way it was introduced in luclin as I never played luclin.

[Ikonoclastia]

there is zero way it was introduced in luclin as I never played luclin.
You're memory must be incorrect. If you quit right after Kunark there should be some evidence that supports it being used in Kunark. I have searched and can't find anything to suggest it was even in Velious.

The link I provided which was posted in 2002, about a month after Luclin released shows someone mentioning "A recent change" and also states "You can now duck to cancel spell casting".

"A recent change" would suggest post Luclin or Luclin, but might include the end of Velious but I think it definitely rules out just after Kunark.

Of course its only one link.

[iruinedyourday]

You're memory must be incorrect. If you quit right after Kunark there should be some evidence that supports it being used in Kunark. I have searched and can't find anything to suggest it was even in Velious.

The link I provided which was posted in 2002, about a month after Luclin released shows someone mentioning "A recent change" and also states "You can now duck to cancel spell casting".

"A recent change" would suggest post Luclin or Luclin, but might include the end of Velious but I think it definitely rules out just after Kunark.

Of course its only one link.

I dont know what to tell you, I wouldn't have known how to do it if it didnt exist pre kunark. Again I playe don Rallos Zek, perhaps it was different there.

[Ikonoclastia]

I dont know what to tell you, I wouldn't have known how to do it if it didnt exist pre kunark. Again I playe don Rallos Zek, perhaps it was different there.
Yeah perhaps I should have said your memory might be incorrect. I thought it was in classic too.

[iruinedyourday]

It was probably a rallos zek only thing then.