Is mapping multiple buttons to a gamepad chearing?

[loramin]

It's been my impression that it is against the P99 rules to map your joystick/gamepad/keyboard buttons to multiple button presses (or mouse movements/clicks). In other words, if you map the "A" button on your controller to "2", that's ok, but if you map it to "2, 3, wait 5ms, 2 again" that's illegal automation.

However, I've scoured the rules and the forums, and the closest I can find to any sort of official response on the issue is this post from Rogean, which was directed more towards log parsers:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=722090&postcount=5

Can anyone point me to a GM post, line in the rules that I missed, or anything like that that shows that multiple-button mappings are prohibited? Or allowed for that matter; either way I'd just like to have some sort of clarification that I can point people to in the wiki.

[quido]

http://www.msu.edu/~oconne53/ikky1.jpg

[Champion_Standing]

I think if you are mapping buttons to things that are at least relatively possible with in game hotkeys you are fine. If you are trying to make a macro that automate something for you while you are AFK then you would be cheating.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

http://www.msu.edu/~oconne53/ikky1.jpg

Lmao

[loramin]

Thanks for that Jeremy, made me smile.

I think if you are mapping buttons to things that are at least relatively possible with in game hotkeys you are fine. If you are trying to make a macro that automate something for you while you are AFK then you would be cheating.

Right, that makes perfect sense. What I'm really looking for though is somewhere where someone like Rogean or Derubael said "this ____ is 'relatively possible' and allowed, but this ___ is a macro/cheating" so that I can put a reference to their quote the wiki.

If no GMs answer this thread, and no one knows of an existing place where the GMs spell things out, then I suppose I can assume that means there is no rule against multiple button mapping. However, it'd be really nice if it were clear exactly what is/isn't against the rules (thus my asking).

Ultimately what this all boils down to is, I don't want to encourage some n00b to map multiple keypress-es to a gamepad button if that's going to get the n00b banned, but at the same time I don't want to scare the n00b out of doing something that the GMs are perfectly ok with either.

[fastboy21]

not sure how it is preventable...everyone has programmable keyboards and mice these days.

[loramin]

Well you could also say "the GMs can't tell that I'm running a speed hack, so they can't prevent it" ... but when Derubael sees you moving faster than Selo's you're still going to get banned.

Similarly IF the GMs wanted to ban multiple-button-mapping they could just watch a bard twist the same song every 3.52 seconds ten times in a row and know that no human could possibly hit buttons that precisely.

I don't think there's any doubt that macroing on some level is prohibited. The official guidebook says:

Third Party Tools, Exploiting
We do not tolerate cheating on Project 1999. Any program that provides an unintended advantage or gleams access to information not otherwise available is very strictly prohibited. The question is just whether mapping the "A" button in your gamepad software to "2,3" counts as a "program that provides an unintended advantage".

[no chewie dont]

if you have to ask; its probably shady



imho

[Cecily]

Instead of posting how you're doing it, why don't you post exactly what you're doing with it.

[fastboy21]

Well you could also say "the GMs can't tell that I'm running a speed hack, so they can't prevent it" ... but when Derubael sees you moving faster than Selo's you're still going to get banned.

Similarly IF the GMs wanted to ban multiple-button-mapping they could just watch a bard twist the same song every 3.52 seconds ten times in a row and know that no human could possibly hit buttons that precisely.

I don't think there's any doubt that macroing on some level is prohibited. The official guidebook says:

The question is just whether mapping the "A" button in your gamepad software to "2,3" counts as a "program that provides an unintended advantage".

its not the same thing at all...speed hacks are doing something that you can't do in the game without cheating. macros are doing something that you could do in the game, but are too lazy to do manually. taken to the extreme it creates significant short cuts of effort...but creates no actual in-game ability you didn't have before.

for example...you could macro auto-fire for your bow, or back stab for your rogue so you don't have to keep clicking it.

you could macro f1 to target yourself, item ability, and then retarget old target, etc...1 click instead of 3 done instantly. etc.

[Ikonoclastia]

Maybe they're not spelt out in black and white to avoid rule lawyering. If you think it "might" be chearing you up it prolly is.

[loramin]

The problem is, it's not about what I think. This isn't an "I want to press a million buttons with a single button press, can I?" post.

My interest comes from the fact that there is at least one guide in the wiki that advocates multi-button-mapping, and since the wiki is maintained by us, "the community", I wanted to ensure new players aren't being misled in to cheating. However, just because someone (me, you, or any other player) thinks something is cheating doesn't make it cheating; the GMs have to think it's cheating, which is why I was looking for some kind of official answer from them.

Honestly, if the GMs don't want us to do something, I think it's realistic to expect them to say as much. So if I really can't find any official answer at all, I think that means we're all just being overly cautious and multiple-button mapping really is allowed.

[Rhuma7]

Youre being dumb about this, mapping hotkeys can be done within eq itself. You think monks click their epic every 6 seconds? No.


Dont automate the key presses and youre fine.

[Supaskillz]

Maybe they're not spelt out in black and white to avoid rule lawyering. If you think it "might" be chearing you up it prolly is.

I suspect this. Broad and somewhat vague rules allow for better enforcement of the spirit of the rule. The obvious problem with this approach is that there is a gray area players are left to guess. The best suggestion in such a case is err on the side of caution if you are not prepared to face the consequences.

[Mac Drettj]

Chears m8

[Messianic]

http://www.msu.edu/~oconne53/ikky1.jpg

+5 internets

[loramin]

Youre being dumb about this

Or maybe instead of looking for your personal opinion I'm trying to establish what the server rules actually are in an area that is clearly gray (as evidenced by the varied responses in this thread).

But thanks for chiming in.

[Ahldagor]

http://www.msu.edu/~oconne53/ikky1.jpg

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/e8/c2/47/e8c2476bcef3abae477133d5ae0b8f87.jpg

[Rhuma7]

Or maybe instead of looking for your personal opinion I'm trying to establish what the server rules actually are in an area that is clearly gray (as evidenced by the varied responses in this thread).

But thanks for chiming in.

Right click a macro button, there are 5 seperate fields of command lines one may use for a single button press, you can also link each button to another button when pressed, theoretically you can do *10* key presses/messages/commands WITHOUT ever using a 3rd party tool like autokey.

It is not an opinion... DO NOT AUTOMATE and you WONT BE BANNED.
You also shouldn't have posted this in server chat if you didn't want peoples "opinions" on the matter, theres a petition forum for directly talking with staff, that you failed to do, which is posted in the guidebook for p99, that you most likely failed to read also.

Retard.

[kylok]

Dont automate the key presses and youre fine.


The question is just whether mapping the "A" button in your gamepad software to "2,3" counts as a "program that provides an unintended advantage".

You do know that every single person on the red server has /who bound to a movement key, and that this can be done from inside the game itself right?

[loramin]

You do know that every single person on the red server has /who bound to a movement key, and that this can be done from inside the game itself right?

I know; lots of people on Blue bind Sense Heading to a movement key the same way.

There are reasons though why you'd want to use a gamepad to do things the EQ client can't. Take bard song twisting: you start song #1, then a second or two later you start song #2. You can't bind a single key to do that in the EQ client, but with the right gamepad you can save some wrist strain by mapping the "A" button to "1,2" (where 1,2 = "start song #1, wait a second, start song #2").

Is that prohibited? If so is it because the gamepad is doing something that a keyboard could not (ie. trigger two keypresses from the user pressing one key)? Or is it because of the 1-second delay in between the keys (which makes it qualify as "automation")? Or is there some other criteria involved? I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, I'm just trying to figure out whether the GMs want us doing it or not, and I had hoped someone would know of a written record indicating one way or the other (eg. a forum post from Rogean, a forum post from someone who just got banned for multi-button-ing, a Twitch transcript where Sirken says "I multi-button-map all the time!", etc.).

[Rhuma7]

I know; lots of people on Blue bind Sense Heading to a movement key the same way.

There are reasons though why you'd want to use a gamepad to do things the EQ client can't. Take bard song twisting: you start song #1, then a second or two later you start song #2. You can't bind a single key to do that in the EQ client, but with the right gamepad you can save some wrist strain by mapping the "A" button to "1,2" (where 1,2 = "start song #1, wait a second, start song #2").

Is that prohibited? If so is it because the gamepad is doing something that a keyboard could not (ie. trigger two keypresses from the user pressing one key)? Or is it because of the 1-second delay in between the keys (which makes it qualify as "automation")? Or is there some other criteria involved? I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, I'm just trying to figure out whether the GMs want us doing it or not, and I had hoped someone would know of a written record indicating one way or the other (eg. a forum post from Rogean, a forum post from someone who just got banned for multi-button-ing, a Twitch transcript where Sirken says "I multi-button-map all the time!", etc.).

/stopsong
/pause 1
/cast #

Might I also suggest you educate yourself on the 10,000 other commands that EQ uses?
https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/macro-101.27806/

[loramin]

Let me repeat myself: I'm NOT trying to argue with you about what is/isn't allowed. You have an opinion and that's great; we all know what opinions are like. I'm not looking for your opinion, I'm trying to find out if there is any existing written indicator of what the rules are.

Unless you can tell me where the GMs say "its ok to make a keypress trigger 1 and 2, but not 1 pause a second 2" or where they say "trigger all the keypresses you want, but it's illegal to have gamepads trigger mouse movement/clicks" or something similar, please stop lecturing me on rules that you clearly don't know either.

[Supaskillz]

Rhuma I am well aware of pause and just because he have a bad example doesn't mean his point is moot. Suppose you want to push 1 button to twist your bard songs indefinitely? This cannot be done in the client.

[Rhuma7]

Rhuma I am well aware of pause and just because he have a bad example doesn't mean his point is moot. Suppose you want to push 1 button to twist your bard songs indefinitely? This cannot be done in the client.

No shit and automation is against the rules. Which I've already stated three times in this thread. Which OP has repeatedly ignored and asked the same dumb question.

If you want /melody go play live.

[Supaskillz]

Automation is built into client to a degree as was your point. Poster is asking is any automation beyond that legal? Can you use this instead of client to perform automation? Can I use something to swap my weapons to for backstab as a rogue to minimize time I hold the worse ratio weapon but still get backstabs with it? This is not built into client but this is no more automation than my evade button to attack off hide attack on and is Not built into client.

[loramin]

Rhuma I am well aware of pause and just because he have a bad example doesn't mean his point is moot. Suppose you want to push 1 button to twist your bard songs indefinitely? This cannot be done in the client.

Well that seems to more clearly fall under "automation" (and thus is prohibited).

As for the bad example part ... you're right. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have gotten in to examples at all: they focus the discussion on "is this example allowed?" when I don't care about whether people think an example is allowed, I'm just looking for the rules. Also, I initially asked about "multiple button mapping" but really there are many other variations that aren't exactly that (eg. is it acceptable to map a gamepad button to "move the mouse over here and click"?) so I should have clarified my question more before I asked it. Lesson learned :)

Still, I don't think it's obvious what the rules are ... and I kind of think it should be. So I'm surprised there's no written record on this topic anywhere.

[Rhuma7]

Fact is I've tried to give you all the tools you would need to bind the hotkeys in game to your gamepad, which isnt needed because what you were trying to do can be done within eq and just use your keyboard. No you cannot use automated macros using ezmacros/autokey to press a on your gamepad to switch instruments and play your song then switch back for the next.

Its not an opinion its a fact and whether you choose to take my word for it or wait for a staff member to reply is up to you.

Im done with this thread.

[loramin]

No you cannot use automated macros using ezmacros/autokey to press a on your gamepad to switch instruments and play your song then switch back for the next.

Yet that is exactly one of the scenarios advocated by the wiki guide that started all of this:

Most programmable joysticks and keyboard devices can handle a simple mouse click. When you get to the point that you need or want to use two instruments, put one on the cursor, then with the other instrument in place hover the mouse over the secondary slot. Set up your key sequence to press the mouse button to switch the instrument in hand, cast the song, then switch it back when it has been completed. So at level 18 when you get a second AE damage song, you can alternate between a stringed instrument for the level 2 song and a brass instrument for the level 18 song. Take care not to move the mouse around during the sequence with the mouse clicks! So IF you're right then we've got a wiki guide that advocates cheating. But I can't put a warning in that guide "this is cheating; see this rule: ____" because no one can point me to this oh-so-obvious ruling that you just know.

[Ahldagor]

where'd jeremy's pic go? damn thing was best part of the thread

[Argh]

This is the latest thing I could find about third party program uses. This was posted about tristantio's(?) map app.

From a third party program standpoint, this is legitimate. Doesn't manipulate the client, just reads from log file. Not comparable to SEQ or MQ2 as it doesn't share those programs advantages. As I've stated previously, in most cases, so long as a program doesn't manipulate the client itself and is only reading from a log file, it can be used on this server.

From a classic standpoint, also legitimate. The technology to do this was clearly present at the time of Everquest's release.

Investigations GM gives it the thumbs up. Unless management chimes in and says otherwise, this is fine.*

So if you're going to use any third party software consider the points mentioned above: does it manipulate the client, and was it possible during the classic timeline.

[rangerlive]

It's been my impression that it is against the P99 rules to map your joystick/gamepad/keyboard buttons to multiple button presses (or mouse movements/clicks). In other words, if you map the "A" button on your controller to "2", that's ok, but if you map it to "2, 3, wait 5ms, 2 again" that's illegal automation.
//
Can anyone point me to a GM post, line in the rules that I missed, or anything like that that shows that multiple-button mappings are prohibited? Or allowed for that matter; either way I'd just like to have some sort of clarification that I can point people to in the wiki.


Using a gamepad(input device) to automate a combination of keystrokes is OK according to SOE, as long as you are at the keyboard.

"Sony Online Entertainment has always considered the use of programmable Game Pad devices are not a violation of our policies since they are an input device, however if the account is found to be gaining experience or skills while the owner is away from the keyboard by using the features of such devices, then we will take action as if the accounts are using a third party program. " (http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?t=404)

But then, multi-boxing was OK, too. So who knows on P99.

[Ambrotos]

Yet nothing you listed Retti is exploiting. Please learn the term please.

Also people used auto shoot in EQ. Not saying it was cool, but it isn't a 3rd party program that injects anything into the client.

[Rellapse40]

gotta excuse retti his mind has not been the same since his wife left him for a bbc

[rangerlive]

I think you are technically correct.

[Clark]

http://www.msu.edu/~oconne53/ikky1.jpg

lol

[fastboy21]

if it is cheating i certainly hope that the server staff would articulate it clearly before beginning to issue bans for it. from past experience, i have no reason to doubt that they would make every reasonable effort to inform the community of the expectations before handing out consequences.

having said that, i do not know of or even heard of a single person banned for the type of macro'ing that I believe the OP is discussing...that doesn't mean necessarily that it is or isn't against the rules, its just an observation from playing here for a long time.

everything in this thread is anecdotal or hypothetical, so nothing short of a GM jumping into this conversation is going to make the rules any clearer than they already are.

my only other suggestion is that if you are actually concerned about something you are doing or thinking about doing in game being a bannable offense then you might have more luck sending a PM to a GM/Guide for your specific situation and question. more likely to find out the information that is relevant to you that way than by a threaded discussion in the general forums.

[Champion_Standing]

My friend with only one good hand needs to set up special macros so he can play effectively instead of keyboard turning like a sloppy housewife.

Why do you people hate the differently abled so much?

[Glenzig]

My friend with only one good hand needs to set up special macros so he can play effectively instead of keyboard turning like a Romulan housewife.

Why do you people hate the differently abled so much?

Fixed.

[Tantrix]

All these people talking about macros being exploits, all while 90% of us are using keyboards that have been capable of the same thing for years. Lmfao.


On the flip side...playing EQ with a controller is the most offensive thing in this thread, not macros.

[Peon25]

On the flip side...playing EQ with a controller is the most offensive thing in this thread, not macros.
And here I was, wanting to move and cast spells with an old Atari joystick. =(

[Champion_Standing]

Fixed.

lol'd

[myriverse]

And here I was, wanting to move and cast spells with an old Atari joystick. =(
Paddles classic!

[Ravager]

I think you are technically correct.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/62/62f538b129e13afc6c7d9b9278b63f63f4c91e1f8fd1077c36 e088039bf538f8.jpg

[rangerlive]

http://i.imgur.com/XS5LK.gif
am i doing this right?

[Pyrocat]

you can also link each button to another button when pressed

How?

[Messianic]

ex·ploit
verb
gerund or present participle: exploiting
ikˈsploit/

make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).

"500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology"

synonyms: utilize, harness, use, make use of, turn/put to good use, make the most of, capitalize on, benefit from

use (a situation or person) in an unfair or selfish way.

"the company was exploiting a legal loophole"

synonyms: take advantage of, abuse

Let's use dictionary definitions for terms that have a different sense in different contexts and pretend we said something that wasn't an absolute waste of time.

[a_gnoll_pup]

pretty sure the rule on EQLive was 1 keystroke = 1 button pressed.

so if you're pressing more than one key across any clients, or more than one key period with one button press... it's probably not a good idea.

[rangerlive]

pretty sure the rule on EQLive was 1 keystroke = 1 button pressed.

so if you're pressing more than one key across any clients, or more than one key period with one button press... it's probably not a good idea.
The deciding factor wasn't how many keystrokes per button pressed.
It was whether the player was actually there pressing buttons.