What makes Rangers worse tanks than Shadow Knights or Paladins?

[sox7d]

Apparently AC is all bullshit, rangers can match it pretty easily anyway with tree weave and Tolan's cheap as fuck in lower levels. Does the hp/sta ratio really make that big of a difference? What am I missing?

What makes "tanks" better tanks than rangers?

[Dr3am]

I'm just guessing but part of it is most likely related to them being able to wear plate gear which has better overall tanking stats aside from the AC? I also read somewhere that wearing a shield caused the characters AC soft cap to go up and all armor is then considered under the soft cap. That won't matter for 2h wearing Knights, so my second theory is:

Ranger caps for defensive skills are low compared to the Knights (according to the wiki).

-Defense capped at 200 (according to the wiki) means they stop growing defense skill at level 40. Pally and SK cap at 200 until they get 51 and then it opens up.
-Dodge, Parry, Riposte are all lower than the Knight classes.

Early Tolans raises your AC value as you mentioned, but unless you are talking BP and Legs they are straight AC. Pally and SK can gear so many pieces that give them lots of STR (to block better with) and and STA. Just my theory though.

[Lojik]

Well if the wiki is right, defensive skills is a big reason. According to the wiki ranger defense maxes at 200, while paladin maxes at 252. Riposte 150 v. 200, dodge 170 v. 155, parry 220 v. 200? Not sure if anyone can confirm or refute these numbers. Also not sure about hp conversion pally v. ranger.

[Tecmos Deception]

All I know is a beta buffed 60 ranger got worked over pretty decently trying to kill the stupid level 40 paladin key dude in skyshrine. I mean, I'm no ranger pro, but I was clicking my DCOS and using dots and slow from epic procced and shit. And I think I ended the fight at like 50% hp and nearly oom.

[Splorf22]

1. Rangers have some 20% fewer HP than Shadowknights and Paladins
2. Rangers are ~100AC behind as well
3. 1 + 2 -> Cleric spends 40% more mana healing
4. Rangers can tank most xp group content just fine if there is a shaman around

[Thulack]

All I know is a beta buffed 60 ranger got worked over pretty decently trying to kill the stupid level 40 paladin key dude in skyshrine. I mean, I'm no ranger pro, but I was clicking my DCOS and using dots and slow from epic procced and shit. And I think I ended the fight at like 50% hp and nearly oom.

grats on playing a ranger correctly and not dying :D

[Tecmos Deception]

Lol. I tried to think of how I could have killed him without the lay hands, but I don't think I could have unless with some shenanigans about mobs that don't heal themselves if rooted and not in melee. Guess I could have interruptnuked a couple heals? Fuckin rangers :)

Shit. Forgot beta rangers have disciplines. That would have helped a little.

[Supaskillz]

Rogues tank better than rangers. Bring it rangers

[Erasong]

now i know ac on this server is kinda wonky and this might not count for shit but,

pretty sure there is a long write up about worn ac, shown ac, and actual ac and how chain ac stacks up vs plate. it doesnt.

[thugcruncher]

ranger roughly translates to lilbitchnig in old erudian

[Swish]

With C2 its not the end of the world for a cleric to heal a ranger MT, but most rangers are often trying to prove a point and pull quickly to justify their group place.

Often that becomes mana inefficient if they're getting constantly pounded on but they can do trivial content, stuff that's close to light blue etc.

[Lune]

Nothing OP, people are just a little lacking in analytical skills to draw their own conclusions other than "lul ranjur".

Rangers bring SK/Paladin snap agro and utility, with the addition of dps. There are a lot of groups out there with plenty of heals and slows to go around, and the limiting reagent in their leveling speed is DPS. Rangers are preferable to knights in those situations.

Of course this is all moot because monks are just an all around better choice than any of these classes for any role.

[Supaskillz]

Nothing OP, people are just a little lacking in analytical skills to draw their own conclusions other than "lul ranjur".

.

What? Sk's an pallies are far more efficient to ch than rangers. More hp, more ac, more dodge parry and riposte. Did you read any of the other posts?

I guess if fighting trivial mobs cleric mana is no concern.

Monks are sweet but as a rogue they are somewhat annoying as tanks in their ability to hold aggro. If I have a hybrid tank I have backstab everytime it pops and if evade fails it's no big deal. Monks I have to be careful or ping pong aggro.

[Brut]

Lower defense skillcap, race choices and chain equipment generally give them lower sta/hp/ac.

Can rangers battle-heal themselves that well anyway? I thought their best heal is like 180 or something lame. Sounds like same situation as SK that the 5.3second lifetap cast time isn't really worth it.

[thieros]

Sounds like same situation as SK that the 5.3second lifetap cast time isn't really worth it.

you crazy man! vampiric embrace(30hp procs) + lifetap weapson(khyldorn...87hp, epics...250hp) + 49 lifetap (280) every few minutes + drain spirit(226) on demand. sk self sufficient! we dont need clerics!

that being said, as a 60 cleric or a 60 torpshaman, any classes mentioned in this thread are fine: i've had rangers, sk's, pallies, monks tanking hs south/seb king & crypt. its all good man. rogues tanking crypt and hs south as well.

moral of the story, it doesnt matter, just dont be bad

[Peon25]

fast dual wielding weapons + riposte = fast death

[Daldaen]

I've Druid tanked crypt before. Fear my self Superior heals and uber Flame Lick tanking skills.

[thieros]

I've Druid tanked crypt before. Fear my self Superior heals and uber Flame Lick tanking skills.

pro

[Ciroco]

It's not so much the lower AC on chain as it is the crappy returns on post-softcap AC compared to other classes. Plus the lower skill caps that everyone has been mentioning.

[Tantrix]

1. Rangers have some 20% fewer HP than Shadowknights and Paladins
2. Rangers are ~100AC behind as well
3. 1 + 2 -> Cleric spends 40% more mana healing
4. Rangers can tank most xp group content just fine if there is a shaman around

This. Rangers simply can't mitigate dmg as well as the other two.

[Cecily]

Slow the mob and rangers tank just fine. The same snap agro as other hybrids, but with higher dps.

[iruinedyourday]

They keep casting that ranger gate spell and abandoning their group mates, that's what I think is their biggest problem.

[phacemeltar]

no one wants to group with a ranger after lvl 20

[iruinedyourday]

but what about the roleplay, what about the rolllleplayyy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

[fadetree]

It's the mitigation tables. Rangers tank fine for grind groups, takes some extra heals but adds dps and holds aggro like a mofo so the nukers can go nuts. Lets face it, the limiting ingredient in most grind groups is DPS, not heals. Should they tank over a knight? No. But if necessary, it works out fine.

[kaev]

It's the mitigation tables. Rangers tank fine for grind groups, takes some extra heals but adds dps and holds aggro like a mofo so the nukers can go nuts. Lets face it, the limiting ingredient in most grind groups is DPS, not heals. Should they tank over a knight? No. But if necessary, it works out fine.

This man is correct. Although if you're indoors (so no harmony) and runners are an issue it can work beautifully to have a paladin pulling & root cc'ing while a well-geared ranger tanks, assuming sufficient DPS of course.

[Lune]

What? Sk's an pallies are far more efficient to ch than rangers. More hp, more ac, more dodge parry and riposte. Did you read any of the other posts?

I guess if fighting trivial mobs cleric mana is no concern.

Monks are sweet but as a rogue they are somewhat annoying as tanks in their ability to hold aggro. If I have a hybrid tank I have backstab everytime it pops and if evade fails it's no big deal. Monks I have to be careful or ping pong aggro.

If you're in Sebilis, Chardok, HS, or any of the other high end group content, how often is your cleric going oom, really? The majority of groups in these places will have an enchanter or bard because they feel it's necessary, and have slows/support heals available. Put that shaman to work.

The vast majority of the group content people do with full groups on p99 is trivial content. The better groups are often the ones that kill faster. A ranger is unique in that they can provide knight-like snap agro while also providing DPS. A knight provides almost no DPS. When your cleric and shaman's mana isn't really an issue (Which is very often), a ranger is the better choice.

Should they tank over a knight?

Yes, usually. A knight's mitigation isn't superior enough that it justifies their near complete lack of dps. That's one of the reasons monk tanks are so awesome, too. You lose a bit of agro management, but you gain a lot of dps, and therefore a lot of efficiency.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Can rangers battle-heal themselves that well anyway? I thought their best heal is like 180 or something lame. Sounds like same situation as SK that the 5.3second lifetap cast time isn't really worth it.

The correct Ranger answer is:

You root the mob, step back to lead the Warrior to believe he finally got aggro off you, and then spam heal yourself with your shitty ranger heal while the warrior is feeling like a man for getting to tank.

[Cecily]

^ I've definitely faked it a few times.

[rangerlive]

It's the mitigation tables. Rangers tank fine for grind groups, takes some extra heals but adds dps and holds aggro like a mofo so the nukers can go nuts. Lets face it, the limiting ingredient in most grind groups is DPS, not heals. Should they tank over a knight? No. But if necessary, it works out fine.
Correct!

[webrunner5]

The correct Ranger answer is: You root the mob, step back to lead the Warrior to believe he finally got aggro off you, and then spam heal yourself with your shitty ranger heal while the warrior is feeling like a man for getting to tank.

This man knows what he is talking about. :) But on paper a Ranger IS a solo class. They have all the tools to do it, and that is what they are good at. Come Velious they will be over the top. :p

[Tasslehofp99]

Fear animal spells in velious for rangers, might be tempted to roll one between that and weaponsheild!

[fadetree]

Yah, weaponshield is nice for raids or named encounters. Panic animal - meh, you get tired of looking at rhinoceros ass. Its something to do while lfg though.

[Troxx]

In early eq (ie pre-pop) a reasonably geared ranger can tank ok for a full or partial group for most content. You won't be an efficient target to heal but you will be better than many classes and can hold aggro very well. In any real head to head comparison though .. No match for an equally geared warrior or knight.

Come velious and the removal of class xp penalties things will be better, but in the end. You can at least fear kite animals solo.

[Clark]

All I know is a beta buffed 60 ranger got worked over pretty decently trying to kill the stupid level 40 paladin key dude in skyshrine. I mean, I'm no ranger pro, but I was clicking my DCOS and using dots and slow from epic procced and shit. And I think I ended the fight at like 50% hp and nearly oom.

Damn glad I didn't roll a Ranger here. Made that mistake on live.

[Arteker]

1. Rangers have some 20% fewer HP than Shadowknights and Paladins
2. Rangers are ~100AC behind as well
3. 1 + 2 -> Cleric spends 40% more mana healing
4. Rangers can tank most xp group content just fine if there is a shaman around

u still thinking like a damm enchanter.

if u get a ranger paladin sk what u do is skip shaman and add a a rogue ,p

u know something like cleric enc (the puller) ranger and x3 rogues, and u all set:)

[Arteker]

Velious high end ranger is a absolute dps monster.

1: their atk natural get bosted.
2: their weapon skill get bigger.
3: they can stack up aura of battles items so bigger atk.
4: they get extra atk buffs.
5: hybrid spell casting help them to even nuke better btw mele swings and not lose dmg.
6: primal will add more atk to ranger.
7: Velious 2hs revamp make a ranger real dps become 2 hander usable to greater effect due to being the class with higher atk in game .

do not confuse actual lamenes of 2 hander in current game with what they become later in velious.

a high end 2 hander dps ranger in velious if not use as cannon fodder for weapon shield , something irrelavtrn with mallets and clikys uses, can be easily pull in more dmg than monks with 2handers and tripple atatck and closing in to rogues more than they would like .

[sox7d]

u still thinking like a damm enchanter.

if u get a ranger paladin sk what u do is skip shaman and add a a rogue ,p

u know something like cleric enc (the puller) ranger and x3 rogues, and u all set:)

Side-note/tangent: I had this group comp in MM 2 weeks ago. Two rogues (epic'd) were tabbed out half the fights, the cleric had an attitude, barely remembered to sit and the enchanter would try to mez things his pet was blatantly attacking without trying to call it off. We wiped a couple times. It was heart breaking

Couple days ago did ranger, monk, monk, bard. Chain pulled red cons in CoM and never had downtime.

A good composition can't beat experienced players.

[Cecily]

Two rogues (epic'd) were tabbed out half the fights

Epic rogue twinks are entitled, whiny, bad players.

[Frug]

Side-note/tangent: I had this group comp in MM 2 weeks ago.

...and the enchanter would try to mez things his pet was blatantly attacking without trying to call it off.

Mezzing something his pet was attacking is unforgiveable, but how would you suggest the chanter "call off" his pet?

[sox7d]

Mezzing something his pet was attacking is unforgiveable, but how would you suggest the chanter "call off" his pet?

yelling at the screen

[YendorLootmonkey]

Damn glad I didn't roll a Ranger here. Made that mistake on live.

I didn't think that when we got AM3/EQ and elemental bows.

[Cecily]

One of my fondest moments on live is finally getting my Stonewood Compound Bow made. I was a happy rogue. Took alot of gambling and Qeynos Afternoon Tea selling to make money to gamble with to finally be able to afford the materials.

[iruinedyourday]

One of my fondest moments on live is finally getting my Stonewood Compound Bow made. I was a happy rogue. Took alot of gambling and Qeynos Afternoon Tea selling to make money to gamble with to finally be able to afford the materials.

are you saying, you played those casino games people setup in like the EC tunnel? I have never tried that and always wondered who plays them haha

[Cecily]

Yeah. I'd play them, run them. Be up 30k and lose it all and more in the same day. It felt much quicker than selling the 500p a stack tea I was making with my GM brewing. Was certainly more exciting. All and all, if I had just simply saved my plat I could have probably knocked 2 months off the time it took to get that bow. But miss all that fun? It's what kept me going.

In retrospect, I should have made a ranger to see the bow in action. But the +10 atk was worth the 3 month time investment to me at the time.

[fadetree]

Am3 + EQ + Elemental bow was just sweet. Not overpowered, just finally what Rangers were supposed to be (imho) from the beginning. Not easy to get either, originally. I ground for months to get it.

[Alanus]

Paladins can be decent crowd control. On live during Kunark, I used to play "enchanter" quite a bit in Sebilis and KC. Root + stun aggro + paladin's damage mitigation and self heals made it work pretty well. Pre-velious (before celestial cleansing and experience penalty removal), paladins were very difficult to level up, though. Celestial cleansing was a godsend, though.

But to answer OPs question, it was a combination of better defense skills, more HP/AC, better armor for tanking.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I made so many millions of plat selling bows to scrubs without elemental access, lol. The bow staves themselves, which you could get 20 a day, would go for upwards of 100k.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Paladins can be decent crowd control. On live during Kunark, I used to play "enchanter" quite a bit in Sebilis and KC. Root + stun aggro + paladin's damage mitigation and self heals made it work pretty well. Pre-velious (before celestial cleansing and experience penalty removal), paladins were very difficult to level up, though. Celestial cleansing was a godsend, though.

But to answer OPs question, it was a combination of better defense skills, more HP/AC, better armor for tanking.

Properly geared, a ranger is a far better duo with a cleric than a paladin, though. If the ranger doesn't have a slower he ends up mitigating far more if he gets an earthcaller proc decently early into the fight. Combined with 41 haste and a DCOS and they actually make p goog clr partners :P

[Daldaen]

Ranger with Haste Cloak, Both Epics, and decent tank gear is a fantastic cleric/shaman duo partner. Any of the healers really, but with druid there is too much overlap.

I would farm the PoWater bows on EQMac for a decent profit. PoFire bows required raid drops (fiend guts), PoAir bows sucked cause PoAir alpha sucked (those spiders were god awful), PoEarth bow wasn't terrible but the vine generally required a raid and the bow staff was pretty rare.

[Clark]

It's the mitigation tables. Rangers tank fine for grind groups, takes some extra heals but adds dps and holds aggro like a mofo so the nukers can go nuts. Lets face it, the limiting ingredient in most grind groups is DPS, not heals. Should they tank over a knight? No. But if necessary, it works out fine.

[Zahr]

Pre-softcap ac + (post-softcap ac * post-softcap return rate) + shield ac

Pre softcap ac:

(defense skill level + player level)*1.88*(1+combatstability modifier)

combat stability modifer = ACLimitMod value from combat stability +2 from Physical Enhancement

1.88 = modifier, this was from pre-SoF

Warrior: 34.48%
Paladin/Shadowknight: 32.25%
Ranger/Cleric/Bard/Monk: 30.30%
Rogue/Shaman/Beastlord/Berserker: 25%
Druid/Necromancer/Enchanter/Wizard/Magician: 20%

This is from live, I have no idea if it's the same here. AC always has higher returns for war/pal/sk > ranger.

Rangers also don't get block, which is huge if you're aware (and I assume this server is the same) of how evasion is calculated per round.

every mob has 20 possible values it can hit you for - every single mob in the game has a 20 point damage spread, without exception.
this spread is determined by this formula: DB+DI*(1-20)
DB = damage bonus. a static number assigned to every mob. this number is reduced by the Shielding stat on gear.
DI = damage interval. a static number assigned to every mob. this is multiplied by (1-20) based on the mob's atk vs. your AC.

so, if we pretend that a mob has a DB of 10 and a DI of 10, you get the following:
10+10*(1-20)
min hit: 10+10*1 = 20
max hit: 10+10+20 = 210

if you assume 35% shielding you get:
min hit: 7.5+10*1 = 17.5
max hit: 7.5+10*20 = 207.5

warriors get a 5% reduction to DI inherent to the class (with higher innate reduction possible via AA, though the AA bonus reduction does not stack with Defensive) from whatever the final number (which basically translates to -1 DI, but not to drop under DI*1), and Defensive Disc and its variants give a 45% reduction to DI from whatever the final number is - meaning that a warrior in defensive is reducing the DI by half.

now, in EQ when you take all these factors, your AC vs. the mob's atk creates what's called your DI distribution - this is basically what percent of hits are where in the possible range of DI.
more AC = more hits will be lower in the DI spread.

AC number values - in-game display, rAC, and the softcap.
first and foremost, the thing most people don't seem to realize about AC is that the number listed in-game is 100% absolutely meaningless.
i'll say that again: your AC value in EQ is rubbish and is not in any way related to any actual calculation.
in in-game display of AC does not calculate the softcap on items/buffs/AAs, does not stop adding AC from agility past the hard cap, and adds AC to the display number based on your Avoidance mod2.
the more AC you have the higher that number will be in game, true, but that value in EQ is nothing but a "MOAR!!" number that doesn't translate into any kind of useful information.

your 'real AC' (or rAC) is derived thusly:
take your total 'true' AC (which is the AC on all your slots added together - or, if using magelo, the AC tab under Modifiers), subtract the amount of pre-softcap AC for your character, multiply the remainder by your softcap returns, then add that to you pre-softcap AC.

let's use my toon as an example. in magelo, my AC tab is 4000 AC.
assume that at level 90 the shadowknight AC softcap is probably somewhere around 750 (not positive on this, if anyone has the numbers let me know and i'll update this), and my shield has 281 AC - and if you didn't know, the AC from your shield is always 'pre softcap', so that gives us 750+281 = 1031 AC that 'pre' softcap.
with max AAs giving 55% bonus softcap (see below) that makes my softcap about 1598.
4000 - 1598 = 2402. so, i have 2402 AC subject to the softcap.
SK softcap is now about 40% (again, correct my numbers and i'll update this post). 40% of 2402 is 1442.
so, 1598+1442 = 3040ac. so, 3040 is my rAC just from gear.
(if you add up all the AC from all your buffs and then take 40% of that number and add it on top, that's your rAC with buffs)

[iruinedyourday]

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/archive/b/b5/20120914120348!Exploding-head.gif

[Alanus]

Ranger with Haste Cloak, Both Epics, and decent tank gear is a fantastic cleric/shaman duo partner. Any of the healers really, but with druid there is too much overlap.

I would farm the PoWater bows on EQMac for a decent profit. PoFire bows required raid drops (fiend guts), PoAir bows sucked cause PoAir alpha sucked (those spiders were god awful), PoEarth bow wasn't terrible but the vine generally required a raid and the bow staff was pretty rare.

I used PoWater bows to get my fletching to 300 on live. I was always the only one who did it, too. I made a ton of plat off of them.

Used to do it with Shaman box and Paladin. I would also farm the regrua for the crab claws or whatever they and make the bucket of crab meat. Would sell those for a ton as well.

[Alanus]

Properly geared, a ranger is a far better duo with a cleric than a paladin, though. If the ranger doesn't have a slower he ends up mitigating far more if he gets an earthcaller proc decently early into the fight. Combined with 41 haste and a DCOS and they actually make p goog clr partners :P

True. After celestial cleansing comes out, paladin + enchanter duo is hard to beat though.

[fadetree]

Pre-epic rangers can slow with a Swarmcaller, too. Cheap, good 2 hand DPS plus a slow proc. Hard to beat. I use mine until it procs, then switch to Woodsman's for serious bonking.

[webrunner5]

Come Velious, IF it ever comes out, classes will change a lot. Rangers are not going to tank anything in Velious trust me. And I am a big Ranger fan. A Paladin, which I am not a big fan of in Kunark will be NEEDED in Velious. They are great pullers if you know how to play them and they are good Tanks.

The old Tank, Cleric, Enchanter thingy is going to be VERY important in Velious. It is going to separate the men from the boys. You not only need DPS in that expansion you need lasting power. Which only a Cleric can make happen. It won't be a Shaman or a Druid healing you, it will be the Cleric healing you to save your ass. Velious is Hard Mode. What is easy now will be hard as hell later. You had better have a good puller, good Tank, good Healer, good slower or you will die. Simple as that.

[Tecmos Deception]

What content are you talking about, web? In my time on beta I've seen that yes, Velious stuff is harder than Kunark stuff. But if you compare apples to apples it really isn't THAT big of a difference... and it isn't as if most groups aren't already based on tank+cleric+enchanter foundation.

I mean, if you compare KC to SG then yeah, Velious is hell. But if you compare seb/HS to velks/DN... shit hits harder and some things are more resistant (basically just the 55+ nameds, of which there aren't many in Kunark to compare to, the trash mobs in these zones aren't more resistant than same-level mobs in Kunark)... but I don't think much of anything has more HP than Kunark mobs. And if you're talking about nameds in kael or skyshrine or whatever, then you need to be comparing that to stuff in the planes or chardok royals or whatever, content that isn't quite faceroll easy for the vast majority of the server now and that basically no one does without a raid; you can't look at raid-ish content on Velious and compare it to trash mobs in LCY and say "look how hard velious is!"

I think too much of the random memories of Velious are based on our situations back in the day. Too many of us were 13-year-olds who logged onto EQ for a couple hours to stare in awe at the screen after we got home from school; basically no one min/maxed shit, we thought agility was a good defensive stat, we were wearing banded while trying to XP at disco at level 50, etc etc etc.


No, ranger tanks with druid healers aren't going to be a good idea for high-50s mobs that hit for 300. But people don't even do crypt or HS north with ranger tanks + druid healers right now. Again, you can't point to something that doesn't work well now and that people don't do right now and say that because that doesn't work in Velious, whoa Velious is Hard Mode! :p

[Splorf22]

Sure, if you are 1-grouping the Royals and trioing the sebilite protector than Velious will be more of the same difficulty wise.

But how many people are actually doing this?

[fadetree]

Come Velious, IF it ever comes out, classes will change a lot. Rangers are not going to tank anything in Velious trust me. And I am a big Ranger fan. A Paladin, which I am not a big fan of in Kunark will be NEEDED in Velious. They are great pullers if you know how to play them and they are good Tanks.

The old Tank, Cleric, Enchanter thingy is going to be VERY important in Velious. It is going to separate the men from the boys. You not only need DPS in that expansion you need lasting power. Which only a Cleric can make happen. It won't be a Shaman or a Druid healing you, it will be the Cleric healing you to save your ass. Velious is Hard Mode. What is easy now will be hard as hell later. You had better have a good puller, good Tank, good Healer, good slower or you will die. Simple as that.

Yeah, for the most part I agree with this, but not entirely. I tanked in Kael and Velk's some back in the early days of velious on live. Did a lot of tanking various giant and orc campes. Doable, but not great. Tanked the helmet of the tracker guy outside Kael with a druid and a shaman. Was able to be a pretty good offtank/root parker. Weaponshield to get the cleric camped is always useful.

[tanknspank]

I don't know with who or when you were doing Disco in banded, but with good gear Velious content was still harder than Kunark. And in turn Kunark was harder than classic (where level range overlapped, 35-50).

[Tecmos Deception]

Sure, if you are 1-grouping the Royals and trioing the sebilite protector than Velious will be more of the same difficulty wise.

But how many people are actually doing this?

I wasn't asking rhetorically, haha. I really want to know what group content in Velious is so much harder than the group content of Kunark. I'm genuinely curious because I don't know Velious from live.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Sure, if you are 1-grouping the Royals and trioing the sebilite protector than Velious will be more of the same difficulty wise.

But how many people are actually doing this?

Most of TMO 5 mans royals and can 3 man prot :p

[Tecmos Deception]

I don't know with who or when you were doing Disco in banded, but with good gear Velious content was still harder than Kunark. And in turn Kunark was harder than classic (where level range overlapped, 35-50).

I never said Velious was easier or the same as Kunark. I'm just skeptical that that much of Velious is vastly harder than most of Kunark like web seemed to be suggesting it was.

[Tecmos Deception]

Most of TMO 5 mans royals and can 3 man prot :p

That plays into what Splorf was getting at though, because TMO is only a small fraction of the server's active population.


For real. Someone list the "groupable" camps in Velious that are so much harder than HS south/east, undead tower area in hole, king in seb, etc. Basically no one does those Kunark camps without a cookie-cutter group. What camps in Velious will chew up a typical tank+cleric+ench+sham+DPS+DPS group so much more easily than those Kunark camps?

[Supaskillz]

Most of TMO 5 mans royals and can 3 man prot :p

Don't need vp gear to trio prot. Done this many times and I am casual scum

[Pint]

Most of TMO 5 mans royals and can 3 man prot :p

Most 60s on the server can pull this stuff off, guild tag isnt relevant, in fact implying that most Tmo do do those things in wrong.

Camps harder than Kunark would be the plate cycle, giants near tormax, protectors under the arena, elementals in sirens, probably some of the actual sirens camps in sirens also. Pom maybe? Can halls of testing be one grpd in era? I think you could find things that are more difficult but you probably have to reach for it, run of the mill stuff is still going to be easy bc this game is just easy.

[Splorf22]

I think the vast majority of L60 players on this cannot 1-group the royals (including 50% or more of TMO, especially if we take away their Donals cheatmode).

Also Velious is way harder simply because there are many more high-level mobs. There are very, very few mobs in Kunark over L55, whereas those mobs are quite common in Velious. And they have 2-3x the HP.

[Pint]

I think the vast majority of L60 players on this cannot 1-group the royals (including 50% or more of TMO, especially if we take away their Donals cheatmode).

I don't agree with this, any 60 chanter can fill that role, any 60 planar geared warrior can tank it, any shaman can malo a pet and spot heal and any monk with sneak and fd can pull it no need for them to be 60. Donals bp makes it consistent but if you just add a second cleric or a soulfire to the warrior then it can still be pulled off. Royals are trainer raid targets meant to teach basic tactics like focused push, consistent dispell andtimed ae dodging, they are very basic encounters.

I know we like to think we are eq savants but in reality we just play more than the average person.

[Tecmos Deception]

I know we like to think we are eq savants but in reality we just play more than the average person.

I get a kick out of how with basically any other hobby in the world, when someone spends a shitload of time on it, they get admired for their dedication and perseverance that leads to great skill with that hobby. Sports, hunting, any kind of art or music, etc. This is true even for people who don't like or appreciate the hobby in question; they can still acknowledge that the person putting the time into it enjoys it and respect that. But with a video game, the more you play/the better you are, the more of a loser you are. And even the people who play a lot and are good at them think this.

[iruinedyourday]

I get a kick out of how with basically any other hobby in the world, when someone spends a shitload of time on it, they get admired for their dedication and perseverance that leads to great skill with that hobby. Sports, hunting, any kind of art or music, etc. But with a video game, the more you play/the better you are, the more of a loser you are. And even the people who play a lot and are good at them think this.

Little miniature d&d figure painters are pretty loosery.

[Xer0]

This man knows what he is talking about. :) But on paper a Ranger IS a solo class. They have all the tools to do it, and that is what they are good at. Come Velious they will be over the top. :p

over the top? maybe a bit of an exaggeration and the words you're looking for are "mildly improved upon"?

From what I've gathered ranges really didn't "grow into their bodies" until AA's were around-- the implementation of a few good bows doesn't really redeem the class.

Don't get me wrong on paper, Ranger is my favorite class... but eq had a pretty poor implementation at least at this point in the elf sim.

[Pint]

I get a kick out of how with basically any other hobby in the world, when someone spends a shitload of time on it, they get admired for their dedication and perseverance that leads to great skill with that hobby. Sports, hunting, any kind of art or music, etc. This is true even for people who don't like or appreciate the hobby in question; they can still acknowledge that the person putting the time into it enjoys it and respect that. But with a video game, the more you play/the better you are, the more of a loser you are. And even the people who play a lot and are good at them think this.

yea i mean its just my opinion and obviously i understand that the A-team is built around the assumption that im wrong, but to me this game is purely about time investment. anyone can learn to stop goofing things up if they do it enough times and they are willing to focus for brief periods of time.

[iruinedyourday]

yea i mean its just my opinion and obviously i understand that the A-team is built around the assumption that im wrong, but to me this game is purely about time investment. anyone can learn to stop goofing things up if they do it enough times and they are willing to focus for brief periods of time.

My dad is a hard core Lional trains collector. Hes got everything but 1 car that is actually 'fabled' to exist, some verison of a oil tank car that has a # on it that nobody has a photo of but some insist exist... shit is nuts.

I always thought he was pretty cool for having that hobby, and that it was a respectable world. So did my mom. Until we finally went with him to one of the train meets.

Oh.

My.

God.

My mother was a saint, she wouldn't say a single bad thing about anyone.

She could there though haha.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/Capture.PNG

So yea... I think its just that everyone plays games at some point, or see's people playing them. So its much more obvious that we are looser hobbiests...

The raelity is, if you have a hobby, youre pretty loosery.

WHO CARES WOOOOOO!!! cast cast cast pew pew pew cast pew cast :D

[Tecmos Deception]

yea i mean its just my opinion and obviously i understand that the A-team is built around the assumption that im wrong, but to me this game is purely about time investment. anyone can learn to stop goofing things up if they do it enough times and they are willing to focus for brief periods of time.

Oh no no. I definitely agree that time investment is the biggest factor in "success" on p99. What I was trying to get at is... isn't time investment the biggest factor in success with basically any hobby?

People on here like to say that there's no "skill" to the game... it's just all about how much time you sink into it. But time spent on something while trying to work toward some specific goal is basically the definition of practice, and practice is how you become skilled at some activity. But tons of people here are afraid to give anyone credit for being "skilled" at p99 either because they don't want to sound like a loser or because they don't want to feel like a loser themselves for NOT being "skilled."

In before people go off on a tirade about how I'm just saying this to give my life meaning :)

[Xer0]

So then I'm the only one irritated by the recurring mispelling of the word "loser"???


People on here like to say that there's no "skill" to the game... it's just all about how much time you sink into it. But time spent on something while trying to work toward some specific goal is basically the definition of practice, and practice is how you become skilled at some activity. But tons of people here are afraid to give anyone credit for being "skilled" at p99 either because they don't want to sound like a loser or because they don't want to feel like a loser themselves for NOT being "skilled."


No MMO's require true skills. They require something like skill, that you develop by playing the game-- but not real skills.

A skill is the ability to play the guitar, or to climb mountains efficiently-- fishing is a real life skill. Sitting around and pushing buttons when signaled to do so =/= skill.

Im the most skilled healer in the game, I can otally keep people at full health by sitting in between alt-3

[YendorLootmonkey]

Rangers are not going to tank anything in Velious trust me.

Sure we will. Level 60 rangers will tank plenty of raid targets.

For precisely 18 seconds before exploding into little ranger bits in a blaze of glory.

[iruinedyourday]

So then I'm the only one irritated by the recurring mispelling of the word "loser"???



No MMO's require true skills. They require something like skill, that you develop by playing the game-- but not real skills.

A skill is the ability to play the guitar, or to climb mountains efficiently-- fishing is a real life skill. Sitting around and pushing buttons when signaled to do so =/= skill.

Im the most skilled healer in the game, I can otally keep people at full health by sitting in between alt-3

that's nonsense! your just making up your own universal rules for life.

guitar requires no skill, its just some sandal wearing womanizer trying to get layed with minimal effort by sitting around plucking strings.

When you start eq you die, and suck... when you start the guitar you suck and your neighbors think you should die.

After a while you can crawl through a dungion on your own pickingup multiple drops because you slow this calm that camp out this or that, so many crazy things.

It totaly requires skill... a more useless skill than most things thats true.... but who cares.

The only thing I have to say that's bad about EQ is that when I play it and then go out and hang out with people in real life, my social ability is like erased from my brain and I have trouble controlling the volume of my voice... I feel like it numbs the brain in some way or another. I am sure they will do some tests one day and find out that playing MMO's or VR worlds literately does destroy your grey matter.

But until that test comes out, I'm gonna say im just playing in my basement withi my virtual d&d lional train toy soldiers and have every right to!

[rangerlive]

Sure we will. Level 60 rangers will tank plenty of raid targets.

For precisely 18 seconds before exploding into little ranger bits in a blaze of glory.
Surviving that particular sort of encounter usually depends on how well the handing-off of the target to the main tank goes, I'd say. Which requires some sort of skill, I think.

[Xer0]

that's nonsense! your just making up your own universal rules for life.

guitar requires no skill, its just some sandal wearing womanizer trying to get layed with minimal effort by sitting around plucking strings.

When you start eq you die, and suck... when you start the guitar you suck and your neighbors think you should die.

After a while you can crawl through a dungion on your own pickingup multiple drops because you slow this calm that camp out this or that, so many crazy things.

It totaly requires skill... a more useless skill than most things thats true.... but who cares.

The only thing I have to say that's bad about EQ is that when I play it and then go out and hang out with people in real life, my social ability is like erased from my brain and I have trouble controlling the volume of my voice... I feel like it numbs the brain in some way or another. I am sure they will do some tests one day and find out that playing MMO's or VR worlds literately does destroy your grey matter.

But until that test comes out, I'm gonna say im just playing in my basement withi my virtual d&d lional train toy soldiers and have every right to!

The difference between guitar and eq though is that you get better and develop a skill when playing an instrument, whereas in eq you just get better pixels and better pewpews. You yourself have no gotten better at the game via the development and sharpening of skill-- your character just got more powerful.. (outside of learning what aggro ranges are and being able to avoid mobs-- hardly requires skill, more memorization and attention)That's my biggest grief with RPGs in general, despite my love for the fantasy genre.

say what you will about all the 13 year olds spouting hatespeech in call of duty via xbox, but at least they're developing coordination and reaction time.

[iruinedyourday]

The difference between guitar and eq though is that you get better and develop a skill when playing an instrument, whereas in eq you just get better pixels and better pewpews. You yourself have no gotten better at the game via the development and sharpening of skill-- your character just got more powerful.. (outside of learning what aggro ranges are and being able to avoid mobs-- hardly requires skill, more memorization and attention)That's my biggest grief with RPGs in general, despite my love for the fantasy genre.

say what you will about all the 13 year olds spouting hatespeech in call of duty via xbox, but at least they're developing coordination and reaction time.

Solo challenge doggie. That requires skills! :)

*edit* wait is this thread about rangers? Soloing as a ranger, that takes skillz.

[Ciroco]

Sure we will. Level 60 rangers will tank plenty of raid targets.

For precisely 18 seconds before exploding into little ranger bits in a blaze of glory.

Precisely 20 seconds, I hope.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Surviving that particular sort of encounter usually depends on how well the handing-off of the target to the main tank goes, I'd say. Which requires some sort of skill, I think.

Depends on if your raid feels you're worth a mallet charge or two or not.

[Frug]

The difference between guitar and eq though is that you get better and develop a skill when playing an instrument, whereas in eq you just get better pixels and better pewpews.

So, when you practice guitar you get better at guitar, but when you practice EQ you get better at EQ and these are different?

Or are you saying that if you were suddenly given the game with level 60 gear you could do as well as someone who played to 60? (That is in fact, what you said.)

Yeah, no.

Guitar may be a HARDER skill (or more meaningful, or whatever), and EQ may be characterized as "pew pew" as you so delightfully like to denigrate it as, but it is still a skill. Useful? No. Difficult? Somewhat, but not really.

But still a skill.

[loramin]

So then I'm the only one irritated by the recurring mispelling of the word "loser"???
I am ... but then again I'm also irritated by your misspelling of the word "mispelling" ;)

Im the most skilled healer in the game, I can otally keep people at full health by sitting in between alt-3

By that logic anyone who can hit CTRL+S and ALT+3 would make an equally good cleric ... but obviously that's not the case. There's skill in deciding when to hit those buttons: if you do it too early you waste mana, and if you do it too late your tank dies. And that assumes you never have to heal anyone else in your group, that no one else in the zone is begging you for a rez, etc.

I'm not saying EQ takes lots of skill, but it definitely does take skill. And if you do something more interesting than a safe group (eg. soloing HS), it can actually take a decent amount of skill.

... still probably less skill than those miniature painters though; that shit is hard.

[Splorf22]

All I know, Pint, is that I have seen a lot of people wipe down at the royals with way more than 5 people. I'm not saying it takes elite gear, but as you say its a great training fight that takes a certain amount of coordination. Most of the players in the R guilds (and a decent fraction of those in the C guilds) prefer to just faceroll their keyboards.

[rangerlive]

Coordination, I think that's a better word to use than "skill".

[Tecmos Deception]

What the hell do you people think "skill" means?

Is anything short of performing complex brain surgery or writing a symphony "just a time sink"?

It takes skill to shoot a free throw. It takes more skill to be a star in the NBA. If it didn't take skill to shoot a free throw, then toddlers would be shooting 100%. Just because there is a difference in degree of difficulty doesn't mean the easier task does not require skill.

[iruinedyourday]

Im leveling an enchanter and went from 16-19 in the basement of Befallen solo... that takes skillllll! I am super proud of my gossamer robe.

I kind of want to put together a level 1-50 solo challenge.. or a 'lowest level named solo challenge' where the goal is kill a named with the lowest level class/base gear in the game.. By base gear I mean maybe at best no better than Sol Ro armor? with player crafted gear for jewelry? I dono... I also think god mode would be all cloth/finesteel/banded - no jewelry. Can you solo nejina as a level 5 necro? is it possible? A sort of P1999 world record thing. It'd all have to be honor based obvs.

anyway, that would def require skill...

I think it'd be fun cus soloing Befallen at 16 I felt there a was very little difference gameplay wise than soloing anything at 55, just variations of themes. At 15 a thermagotist can drop you in about 7 seconds if things go wrong haha

Hey, why'm I posting this in the ranger forum? Maybe they'll turn out to be the king of low level soloing.

I love it when a good thread comes together...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/50734/1375947-hannibal3.jpg

XD also Tecmos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8w8JUEo1pI


It takes skill to shoot a free throw. It takes more skill to be a star in the NBA. If it didn't take skill to shoot a free throw, then toddlers would be shooting 100%.

[Pint]

All I know, Pint, is that I have seen a lot of people wipe down at the royals with way more than 5 people. I'm not saying it takes elite gear, but as you say its a great training fight that takes a certain amount of coordination. Most of the players in the R guilds (and a decent fraction of those in the C guilds) prefer to just faceroll their keyboards.

fair enough lol

[Xer0]

So, when you practice guitar you get better at guitar, but when you practice EQ you get better at EQ and these are different?

Or are you saying that if you were suddenly given the game with level 60 gear you could do as well as someone who played to 60? (That is in fact, what you said.)

Yeah, no.

Guitar may be a HARDER skill (or more meaningful, or whatever), and EQ may be characterized as "pew pew" as you so delightfully like to denigrate it as, but it is still a skill. Useful? No. Difficult? Somewhat, but not really.

But still a skill.
No, Yeah.
YOU are not getting better at EQ.

Becuase of game progression your sprite is simply getting more powerful.


All you are doing is saving plat for better atl+1-8s, putting on better pixels for better stats to deal better damage. You, as a person are honing 0 skill.


What the hell do you people think "skill" means?

Is anything short of performing complex brain surgery or writing a symphony "just a time sink"?

It takes skill to shoot a free throw. It takes more skill to be a star in the NBA. If it didn't take skill to shoot a free throw, then toddlers would be shooting 100%. Just because there is a difference in degree of difficulty doesn't mean the easier task does not require skill.

itt comparing eq to brain surgery, pro basketball.
some things require such nominal amount of effort you can't rightfully call it a skill. Making peanut butter and jelly? is that a skill? By your all-inclusive definition, yes. But we don't pride ourselves (beyond the age of 13anyway) in how badass we can make a pb&j

And don't try to tell me it takes real skill to heal. All it requires is that you half assedly pay attention to health levels. and understand the simplest math (4 second cast, 3 second recast time etc).



I am ... but then again I'm also irritated by your misspelling of the word "mispelling" ;)



By that logic anyone who can hit CTRL+S and ALT+3 would make an equally good cleric ... but obviously that's not the case. There's skill in deciding when to hit those buttons: if you do it too early you waste mana, and if you do it too late your tank dies. And that assumes you never have to heal anyone else in your group, that no one else in the zone is begging you for a rez, etc.

I'm not saying EQ takes lots of skill, but it definitely does take skill. And if you do something more interesting than a safe group (eg. soloing HS), it can actually take a decent amount of skill.

... still probably less skill than those miniature painters though; that shit is hard.
:mad:
typographical errors are a thing, of this I am fairly certain.

Looser being used in place of loser 15 times =/= typographical error.

[fastboy21]

i can do things on my bard that some of the best geared bards on the server can't do...

why is that do you think?

[Xer0]

i can do things on my bard that some of the best geared bards on the server can't do...

why is that do you think?

must be your mad skill
lol

[fastboy21]

must be your mad skill
lol

yep. your notion that there is no skill in EQ is just wrong.

you can argue that most people that play eq either suck at it or don't need skill for what they choose to do.

But, go look at the elite players on this server (start with the solo artists, for example) and you'll easily see that their game play is not primarily driven by their pixels/gear. they have a skill.

i'm not sure why you can't get over that...its only a video game, sure...but there is some skill gaming. imo, if there no skill at all in gaming most of wouldn't enjoy playing them so much.

[fadetree]

I think there is definitely skill involved. Some classes bring that out more than others. When you've got a tough fight going with 4 merbs in camp, and everyone is just barely surviving, your skill in playing your character makes a difference. If you are standing around with a bunch of overgeared min maxers just grinding through loads of easy mobs, not so much.

[Tecmos Deception]

i'm not sure why you can't get over that

Rationalization.


No, Yeah.
YOU are not getting better at EQ.

Becuase of game progression your sprite is simply getting more powerful.


All you are doing is saving plat for better atl+1-8s, putting on better pixels for better stats to deal better damage. You, as a person are honing 0 skill.

So you and I should be equally successful at soloing a betabuffed enchanter through a Velious zone, right? Since we will have the same pixels? Since I've never honed a skill with all the days I've spent playing an enchanter in classic and kunark zones? Let's do it. I'll stream it!

[Whirled]

Anyone who knows how to REALLY play guitar would know that it requires much more skill than ANY game. To strum a few chords and call yourself a guitar player is like fixing a flat tire and calling yourself a mechanic.

ITT: So, from what I'm hearing I guess there's lots of shitty guitarists around here, lol

[fastboy21]

Anyone who knows how to REALLY play guitar would know that it requires much more skill than ANY game. To strum a few chords and call yourself a guitar player is like fixing a flat tire and calling yourself a mechanic.

ITT: So, from what I'm hearing I guess there's lots of shitty guitarists around here, lol

One, the question he raised isn't about the amount of skill...its whether there is skill AT ALL.

Obviously, there are different tasks that require different amounts of skill (talent and learned ability). Just because something is only a game however has nothing to do with the amount of skill needed to do it good or to perfection.

One of the most interesting observations about humanity is how much energy we put into developing skill sets that have no immediate application to our day to day survival...and require tremendous skill and time to master. I'm not claiming that EQ is such an endeavor, but anyone who has played a sport at top levels of competition knows that being only a game doesn't make the tasks any easier or less skillful to master.

I'd be interested in watching a heads-up-display-of-no-skill-required-competition between Tecmos and Xer0.

Its so obvious that playing EQ well requires a developed skill (call it natural reaction time, call it a learning curve, call it a knowledge base, etc.) that you almost have to think its trolling.

[Deltaloko]

As someone who played a bard on live from launch until depths of darkhollow, the game absolutely took skill to play.

When you look at the bard class, you have an incredibly large toolkit, and you had to learn how to apply that toolkit to all the various situations you would encounter as a raid bard.

Hell, there was a raid boss in BoT Towers that i would use deftdance + song of highsun to split, when they were supposed to be aggro linked and fought together.

There were quite a few nights in PoFire when there were 2 guilds in zone fighting over the namers that spawned in the field. By your argument, it was a simple 50/50 coinflip as to which of us would end up with a named, right? Except somehow our pulling team used to consistently beat the other guilds pulling teams and end up with most of the raid mobs.

Maybe because i was a raid puller for 6+ years, but pulling most certainly took skill. Especially when racing against other guilds in the open world content.

There were a lot of things that I was able to do that other bards did not know how to do, because i spent years learning how to play the class. Isn't that the definition of skill?

[Whirled]

I wasn't disputing anything other than the bad analogy of playing a video game =/= and the guitar argument. I will agree that the learning curve for EQ is very harsh if someone has never played before or never known ALL the little secrets that some (or most) know around here it would make any game difficult. I have played sports at higher levels in several forms (All Star baseball (no, not little league, lol), Volleyball for U.S. Army & free play in Ft. Lauderdale beach, dozens of static line, free, or chopper blast parachuting excursions (no I was not tandem) ..... but there's just no way any of that can equal pressing auto attack or clicking a button to root something.

YES; there IS some level of attendance one would need to keep timers on spawns, buffs, item recharging & all that EQ stuff that comes along in the package of the game but to consider it anything like a rough game of lacrosse is just ludicrous.

Natural reaction time = 1 can say the same just to drive a car....
Learning curve = agreed*

I think when u say knowledge base; you hit it more on the head.... it just requires the player to know the game inside and out (at least from people that seem to have knowledge of every little shred of what npc walks to what loc point, drops X item z% of the time & takes a shit @ every noon.) Some people have time for that... some don't.

P.S. = I played a bard on live for several years - did the whole carpal tunnel craziness before the /melody thing. Sorry but pressing 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 7, 7, still does not require much more skill than tapping a finger. Next we'll have Olympic sandwich making because people will think that it takes skill & some have gone to subway college to learn this ultimate skill, lol

[Supaskillz]

Eq is more about the plan than the execution. Execution is often easy, but that is one thing I like about this game. Strategy I enjoy. Lightning speed reaction times are not my strength

[Deltaloko]

Again, no one is arguing playing a game is equal in skill to playing olympic level sports.

But to argue that its not a skill at all is false.

"Sorry but pressing 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 7, 7, still does not require much more skill than tapping a finger"

You're right. And strumming a chord doesn't require much more skill than moving your hand and tapping a finger on a string.

When you strip away all thought process and knowledge required from an action, and boil it down to just its simple motor movements, anything sounds simple. "throwing a football is really just swinging your arm"

Why did you pick songs 1, 2, 5, and 7? When do you play songs 3 and 4 and 6 and 8? What songs did you pick for 3/4/6/8? What are you doing while twisting 1/2/5/7? Just standing stationary completely zoned out? Are you moving/positioning based on fight? Are you reacting to any fight mechanics? Are you helping coordinate the raid via chat or voice communication?

You seem to be under the impression that video games are always 100% rote memorization of a task, and other things are dynamic skills.

I can show you people "playing" a guitar that have simply mechanically memorized a motor movement to specific timing. They don't understand notes or music and if you asked them to deviate from what they're doing and personalize it at all, they could not.

I can show you people playing a video game that are reading and reacting and making decisions/judgement calls based on variable inputs. You put them in the middle of a raid and throw a whole new mechanic at them that they were not expecting and they could adapt to it and survive.

[fastboy21]

P.S. = I played a bard on live for several years - did the whole carpal tunnel craziness before the /melody thing. Sorry but pressing 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 7, 7, still does not require much more skill than tapping a finger. Next we'll have Olympic sandwich making because people will think that it takes skill & some have gone to subway college to learn this ultimate skill, lol

If that was the extent of what you were able to do on a bard then, yes, you had no skill.

[Whirled]

Lmmfao at your elitist attitude over a friggin game.
Yes; my example was what every bard BUT YOU did... what a tool.
Where were you when we needed that extra squad in Tiger Beach?
Just go lay down, lol

[Deltaloko]

If that was the extent of what you were able to do on a bard then, yes, you had no skill.

I'd have to agree there. I was generally our puller/pull coordinator, our tank coordinator, our heal coordinator, and our CC coordinator. I was usually in about 10 chat channels during a raid. Had to keep up manual twists while directing most of the raid around the various mechanics.

The Bertox event comes to mind, I remember being on a 1280x1024 monitor, with chat boxes filling all but probably 320x200 in the middle, for ~2 hours.

[Deltaloko]

google skill definitions:

the ability to do something well; expertise.

a particular ability.

and wikipedia:

A skill is the learned ability to carry out a task with pre-determined results often within a given amount of time, energy, or both

from websters:

the ability to do something that comes from training, experience, or practice

the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance

dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks

a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability

By virtually every defition of skill, playing a game like EQ requires skill.

[Whirled]

LOL, whatever dude; there's no way to talk to some people because they will never be wrong. More importantly tho; why waste all this time with such skill when you all could be doing something much more fulfilling like curing cancer, saving lives, building better infrastructure, etc...?

Oh; I get it, this set of awesome skills only goes so far... in Everquest only.

Google up 1 trick pony while you're researching today.

[Splorf22]

Of course there is skill involved in playing EQ, but if you think the amount of skill required to play EQ is comparable to playing sports like basketball or volleyball, you are fucking insane. In fact when I originally wrote that sentence I was using the word 'elite', and then I realized it just didn't apply to EQ.

[fastboy21]

Lmmfao at your elitist attitude over a friggin game.
Yes; my example was what every bard BUT YOU did... what a tool.
Where were you when we needed that extra squad in Tiger Beach?
Just go lay down, lol

LOL, whatever dude; there's no way to talk to some people because they will never be wrong. More importantly tho; why waste all this time with such skill when you all could be doing something much more fulfilling like curing cancer, saving lives, building better infrastructure, etc...?

Oh; I get it, this set of awesome skills only goes so far... in Everquest only.

Google up 1 trick pony while you're researching today.

I stand corrected. I thought you just didn't understand our points before reading these two little posts you made.

Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a EQ nerd living in his mommy's basement not doing anything with their life playing an elf simulator? Good one.

Here's another one: you're immature and don't know how to discuss something with someone who disagrees with you without being a prick.

[Deltaloko]

"there's no way to talk to some people because they will never be wrong."

I mean, in this case, we're objectively correct. By every single actual definition of the word skill, this meets the qualifications.

"More importantly tho; why waste all this time with such skill when you all could be doing something much more fulfilling like curing cancer, saving lives, building better infrastructure, etc"

We all play the game because we enjoy it. Saying "why do you play everquest when you could be curing cancer" is probably one of the dumbest things i've ever heard on these forums. Why do *you* play this game(or post on the forums, for that matter), when *you* could be doing something much more fulfilling?

As for one trick pony?

Websters says its "one that is skilled in only one area".

Saying a skill you have is only applicable to one area is not the same as saying someone is only skilled in one area.

I have plenty of strong skills outside of video games, so by definition i'm most certainly not a one trick pony.

You took this very personal at some point. You need to relax.

[Deltaloko]

Of course there is skill involved in playing EQ, but if you think the amount of skill required to play EQ is comparable to playing sports like basketball or volleyball, you are fucking insane. In fact when I originally wrote that sentence I was using the word 'elite', and then I realized it just didn't apply to EQ.

Pretty much every single person posting here has agreed with you, many of them in several different posts. Who is this directed at?

[Whirled]

Wrong again, but the know it all & holier than thou behavior that you exhibit is truly remarkable - is it part of the skill set for EQ or just you?
You must be a great hit at parties...not*

I never said anyone lived in anyones basement but if that's where you're at... so be it my dungeon dwelling friend... make sure you're nice to mom cuz you only get one =P

Oh, I understand plenty d00d; especially when it's a know it all bastard trying to make himself sound important about a decade & a half old game & calling it skill greater than all, lol

[Deltaloko]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/assets/FallaciesPosterHigherRes.jpg

Whirled, you should read this.

At this point, if i were playing logical fallacy bingo with your posts, i'd have won about 6 times over.

[yorumi]

It's rather fun watching someone totally self destruct when they can't handle the fact that the entire world doesn't think exactly like themselves.

I was curious about something back around page 4 i think. It was mentioned rangers become quite a bit more powerful with the 2 hand update. I'm just wondering how rangers parse compared to monks and rogues, say before and after this update? I know rangers arn't going to beat them or likely equal them but how close do they actually get?

[Whirled]

Oh look! ^Another ass who thinks knows everything. You need to log out & do something much more important than waste such skill sets. Your lame attempts at childish rudeness show the true skills you really have.

Honestly; I came here to inform you that your lame analogies don't work but instead you keep the defensive stance and play the gif game now. Carry on kiddies, I'm out of here, lol

[Deltaloko]

so you DIDNT read the logical fallacies list, then?

[fastboy21]

Oh look! ^Another ass who thinks knows everything. You need to log out & do something much more important than waste such skill sets. Your lame attempts at childish rudeness show the true skills you really have.

Honestly; I came here to inform you that your lame analogies don't work but instead you keep the defensive stance and play the gif game now. Carry on kiddies, I'm out of here, lol

something tells me you'll be back, soon.

[Deltaloko]

It's rather fun watching someone totally self destruct when they can't handle the fact that the entire world doesn't think exactly like themselves.

I was curious about something back around page 4 i think. It was mentioned rangers become quite a bit more powerful with the 2 hand update. I'm just wondering how rangers parse compared to monks and rogues, say before and after this update? I know rangers arn't going to beat them or likely equal them but how close do they actually get?

Also curious about this, I don't ever remember a bit 2h update for rangers, but I didn't play one back then.

[Brut]

What is with this stuff about rangers becoming top tier dps come Velious? The 2hander buff goes to all the other classes too, warriors/monk with their triple 2hander swings will still have a huge edge. Pally/SK with a 2h wep will be no different from a ranger with one.

The attack buffs rangers get in Velious are group buffs, so they're not just the rangers sole benefit. Greater Wolf Form is 10 more ATK than Share Wolf Form. Anyone can get Aura of Battle gear. Anyone can get Avatar. Rangers wont be having some 200atk on everyone else.

Plus Velious still has a problem of very few ranger-only weapons. They'll still be 4th on the list of desired 1hander drops after warriors/rogues/monks/probably even bards.

[webrunner5]

Boy looks like I stirred up a Hornets Nest with my Ranger statement. :D I guess my statement "over the top" was a bit of overstatement. :rolleyes: But they get better in Velious. And they become a how should I say it, a good, and fun solo class and tracker.

I am 67 years old as some of you know on here and have the time since I am retired to play EQ, hell 18 hours a day, if I wanted to. And at times I do. :o So I have played EQ in one form or anther since the game started. Which means on here, EQmac before it went tits up,the Sleeper server, Live you name it. I have easily over 80 to 90 characters on all my accounts between them. It is my hobby. So I sort of know a little about this game. I am old so I have probably lost some memory of what is what like to play some of these zone, expansions. But I have NOT been out of the loop. I was a Main Cleric healer in one of the top guilds on Torvo on live and I know what it took to make it happen and who could not, class wise, skill wise. Because I HAD to heal their ass. And I was good at what I did.

But I must admit I could not do it well enough at my age anymore. But there is some VERY talented people on here that play that I have a ton of respect for, probably envy truth be known, that can make stuff happen. A LOT of them play Enchanters on here, and you guys know who they are, are just scary good at what they can do. So I am proud to be a part of this community. And am glad to learn something new from you guys that is interesting. EQ is a very special game, at least to me. :)

[Tecmos Deception]

I am 67 years old

God damn! :)

[Deltaloko]

I am 67 years old

props to you for doing what you love! thats awesome!

[Lojik]

Do you qualify for some sort of Everquest Pension, where Sony just gives your live character free loots each month?

[Cecily]

That's called Veteran Rewards.

[koros]

Ranger with a Baton of Flame and a Salindrite Dagger/Claw of Lightning with the atk upgrades towards the end of Velious should be top tier dps. Above a war, and ~10-20% below a monk or ~20% behind a rogue with equal gear.

Rogue relative dps declines vs other classes due to backstab damage not increasing, while monks lose a good bit of their relative ratio advantage (although they get moved to a slightly improved hit table). Meanwhile ranger atk/weapon skill/double attack increases and weapon ratios massively improve vs Kunark.

[Ciroco]

A lot of the rhetoric about Rangers in Velious is exaggerated, but I have to say, reading through the patch notes has me pumped.

[Deltaloko]

"Above a war, and ~10-20% below a monk or ~20% behind a rogue with equal gear."

Wouldnt that make them tier 2 dps, with tier 1 being rogue/monk?

[iruinedyourday]

I am 67 years old as some of you know on here and have the time since I am retired to play EQ, hell 18 hours a day, if I wanted to.

Dude!! You fight dragons, insted of golf courses.. amazing!

youre like this guy:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6937/jamescosmoarticle.jpg

[fadetree]

I personally don't care what dps tier I'm in, I just enjoy rangering. We do get better in Velious, but not enough to displace the traditional favorites, many of whom also get better. The removal of the exp penalty, addition of panic animal, and some melee and spell ATK upgrades put us in a much better position. I'm looking forward to it. Part of what I like about rangers is the difficulty, so if they got too much better I probably wouldn't enjoy it as much.

[koros]

"Above a war, and ~10-20% below a monk or ~20% behind a rogue with equal gear."

Wouldnt that make them tier 2 dps, with tier 1 being rogue/monk?

Shrug, I guess it's how you want to define tier. Still better than nearly every class. Also, this isn't factoring in casting DPS which will be 10-20 dps vs some targets. Also I don't know if anyone has parsed Trueshot + BFG but that's very likely to beat anything else period.

[Daldaen]

While BFG may look cool or have a cool proc. It's damage absolutely blows.

Windstriker stays the best bow through Velious. The Sleeper's Tomb Bows and AoW bow are better, but it will be awhile before those become available.

[koros]

While BFG may look cool or have a cool proc. It's damage absolutely blows.

Windstriker stays the best bow through Velious. The Sleeper's Tomb Bows and AoW bow are better, but it will be awhile before those become available.

I'm not talking about using it in the range slot.

[Daldaen]

How does it function in the Primary slot as a bow exactly? I don't remember being around many people with them during Velious.

[koros]

How does it function in the Primary slot as a bow exactly? I don't remember being around many people with them during Velious.

It can double attack and gets haste and checks against archery skill for damage.

[fadetree]

AND gets boosted by TS, naturally.

[Daldaen]

Interdasting. Didn't know it was functional in the main hand. I see why they took it out now.

[Pint]

So you and I should be equally successful at soloing a betabuffed enchanter through a Velious zone, right? Since we will have the same pixels? Since I've never honed a skill with all the days I've spent playing an enchanter in classic and kunark zones? Let's do it. I'll stream it!

Hey I'll accept that challenge, sounds like a good time to me.

Also sorry for derailing this thread, as a ranger main from live rangers are the tits.

[Ciroco]

While BFG may look cool or have a cool proc. It's damage absolutely blows.

Windstriker stays the best bow through Velious. The Sleeper's Tomb Bows and AoW bow are better, but it will be awhile before those become available.

Purely damage wise, there will be many bows better than Windstriker. Wind Saber already is if you shell out the cash for good arrows.

[webrunner5]

I personally don't care what dps tier I'm in, I just enjoy rangering. We do get better in Velious, but not enough to displace the traditional favorites, many of whom also get better. The removal of the exp penalty, addition of panic animal, and some melee and spell ATK upgrades put us in a much better position. I'm looking forward to it. Part of what I like about rangers is the difficulty, so if they got too much better I probably wouldn't enjoy it as much.

This person knows what he is talking about. A Ranger is a HARD class to play without dying. You know and I know they, like a lot of classes, they are squishy. I have said on here before they are a cat and mouse class. And they are the cat. They have so many good tools if you know how to play one its scary. It takes skill to play one and I mean a lot of skill, but it is so rewarding to do it. It is not some class you just sit there and spam a spell or hit a button with. You have to think, its like a chess game, and that is what is exciting about them. They will be fun as hell to play in Velious.

I had a duel epic one on live, probably got the epics in the Velious expansion, I don't remember, long time ago, and it was a killing machine solo. Not a fast killing machine, but it got the job done. Snare is a GOOD thing, it makes some stuff happen that you can only do on a few classes. But with snare and their bow, if you know how to play one, you hardly get hit over 40% of the fight. And you will kiss their butts to track for you in Velious.

[Trosh]

I dunno if any1 has written this, or if the server admins have done something funky with the AC algorithms, but the way AC worked for the longest time is based on the type and class.
You take total ac, and then depending on your class only a certain percentage of it actually counts.
Warriors get 90% effectiveness
other plate is 75% or 80%
chain 50%
leather 25%
cloth 10%

so a warrior with 1000 AC effectively has 900 AC, where a wizard with 1000 AC effectively has 100, and a Ranger's 1000 AC would only be 500

the only thing that is counted as "Hard AC" meaning it has 100% effectiveness are certain buffs and shields. This allows Pallies and SK's to have a nice boost because they use shields, and most priest classes can as well to help if they are bad at dealing with heal agro.

Like I said in the beginning tho, this was how Sony did AC for the first years, leading up well past PoP. It has been changed at some point on live servers as avoidance tanking is almost more important then AC, and I'm not positive when they made the swap - whether before or after titanium.

[webrunner5]

I dunno if any1 has written this, or if the server admins have done something funky with the AC algorithms, but the way AC worked for the longest time is based on the type and class.
You take total ac, and then depending on your class only a certain percentage of it actually counts.
Warriors get 90% effectiveness
other plate is 75% or 80%
chain 50%
leather 25%
cloth 10%

so a warrior with 1000 AC effectively has 900 AC, where a wizard with 1000 AC effectively has 100, and a Ranger's 1000 AC would only be 500

the only thing that is counted as "Hard AC" meaning it has 100% effectiveness are certain buffs and shields. This allows Pallies and SK's to have a nice boost because they use shields, and most priest classes can as well to help if they are bad at dealing with heal agro.

Like I said in the beginning tho, this was how Sony did AC for the first years, leading up well past PoP. It has been changed at some point on live servers as avoidance tanking is almost more important then AC, and I'm not positive when they made the swap - whether before or after titanium.

Very interesting observation, and a correct one also. But there is a lot of other factors in classes, like damage mitigation, dodge, parry, skill caps etc., that effect how good a class is or not taking damage toe to toe. A Warrior is just hands down the best to just get beat on. And a Ogre one at that. There is a reason there is Tanks and why others are not.

The original Devs really did a sort of scary good job of figuring out a lot of crazy things in this game at the start. Some smart people for sure. They got some things wrong, but a hell of a lot of it right.

But I think, on here, that AC is sort of broken until you get past 43, 44ish and I think then it does matter. Pretty big time. But maybe Nilbog, Rogean know more than we remember, and I am sure of that, at least for me. :D Good post.

[Trosh]

Yeah, I read the first couple pages, and they were oozing with the skill comparisons, so I figured I would address the AC question in original post. AC is huge, because rangers will get hit 2x harder then warriors, but so are skills because they will also get hit like ~20% more frequently.

[webrunner5]

Yeah, I read the first couple pages, and they were oozing with the skill comparisons, so I figured I would address the AC question in original post. AC is huge, because rangers will get hit 2x harder then warriors, but so are skills because they will also get hit like ~20% more frequently.

That is part of the problem that I have no clue why in the original game, was that Rangers have and can keep agro like hell. And they have Taunt, WHY do they need that clicky skill?? But they are a bitch to heal as a healer because they are squishy, and they are taking agro off the Tank who needs to keep it to keep the group alive. But your numbers will change you have stated in Velious. They are closer to a Warrior DPS wise and stats wise, and will put out more damage. But as you said they wear chain at best and Warriors wear plate. And in reality a Warrior is just something to beat on, not a DPS champion. Same way with a Paladin. But a Warrior in Zerker mode is just plain scary DPS wise, but risky stuff for him and the group. As a healer like I was, I, at times, to save the group, you had to let the Warrior stay in Zerker mode to save the group. But is was some heart pounding stuff as the healer trust me. I NEVER wanted to let anyone die in a group. It was my job to keep them safe.

I guess the original Devs, like I have said, wanted them to be a solo class, and that is what they should be. Who knows? This is a interesting crazy game. :)

[iruinedyourday]

I guess the original Devs, like I have said, wanted them to be a solo class, and that is what they should be. Who knows? This is a interesting crazy game. :)

Im sure I'm not the only one but i wish they made them be able to turn into a wizzard class with archery. That woulda been fun, if they came up with like a bard/wizard mechanic for archery.

[koros]

That is part of the problem that I have no clue why in the original game, was that Rangers have and can keep agro like hell. And they have Taunt, WHY do they need that clicky skill?? But they are a bitch to heal as a healer because they are squishy, and they are taking agro off the Tank who needs to keep it to keep the group alive. But your numbers will change you have stated in Velious. They are closer to a Warrior DPS wise and stats wise, and will put out more damage. But as you said they wear chain at best and Warriors wear plate. And in reality a Warrior is just something to beat on, not a DPS champion. Same way with a Paladin. But a Warrior in Zerker mode is just plain scary DPS wise, but risky stuff for him and the group. As a healer like I was, I, at times, to save the group, you had to let the Warrior stay in Zerker mode to save the group. But is was some heart pounding stuff as the healer trust me. I NEVER wanted to let anyone die in a group. It was my job to keep them safe.

I guess the original Devs, like I have said, wanted them to be a solo class, and that is what they should be. Who knows? This is a interesting crazy game. :)

Rangers weren't that squishy in classic. The main issue was skillcap misalignment from 50-60 vs pure melee mixed with a ridiculous exp penalty. Also, as casting time on higher level spells increased, they became more ineffective vs just meleeing while in combat.