GM Available for Discussion on What are actually considered camps?

[lordlandric]

Was hoping there might be a Gm available to go over what is actually considered a camp in the game/p99 blue server. Had some issues tonight with someone in rathe mountains over a large area they were claiming to camp. The were claiming to be camping the area from the lake rathe zone in to all the way back by findel grobs tower . Basically the whole mountain and lower area surrounding . It was a 53 wanderer to who all the mobs were green. they were ae snaring all the giants skellies and such as they popped running all around and bringing them to Cynthia's camp. basically Pling her friend as she quoted. Now as far I know I thought an entire area of roaming mobs is really not a camp. I understand if it was a static mob spawing in an area such as findel grobbs tower or the bandit camp on the mountain then yes that is a camp. Am I wrong? Just looking for some advice on this. Yes they were upset we killed a skellie that was by us as she was running around gathering them. Been playing eq since just after its release in beta back in the 90ies. Never heard of that area being a camp. Any advice please would be appreciated. There might be another conflict tomarrow if she is pling there again. Btw we were a 33 mag and 30 chanter so the mobs are blue to us for exp. Thank you much appreciated and please excuse the spelling errors if any lol.

[Bboboo]

Norrath has many zones.

[abacab-bansdontwork]

A camp is whatever I let you have.

[Uteunayr]

The full rules are listed here: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132299

"Project 1999 Staff will not be defining what constitutes a camp. Instead, Project 1999 Customer Service Staff will arbitrate spawn disputes on a per-case-basis. We greatly encourage players to find their own resolution to spawn disputes, as the solution provided by the staff will at best be a win-lose situation, and possbily a lose-lose situation. No two decisions, even at the same 'camp', are guaranteed to be the same, as we will take into account multiple factors in making a determination on a 'camp'."

And then, more specifically to your situation:

"That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders cleared. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up."

What this means is that you can camp as much as you want, until someone else comes in. Once someone comes and wants some, you must split the camps you are taking. You can keep a camp to yourself, but you must be close to (probably within range of to be safe) the spawn point. While you're there, someone else can go to another mob's spawn point and claim that one as their camp.

You would probably not be considered camp stealing to take roaming mobs. Unless the person is sitting there at the spawn point of the roaming mob, one isn't camping it. Generally (although not exactly), roaming mobs are not camped. So, I do believe you would be in the right to grab some of the roaming Giant Skeletons and killing them, so long as you did not try to steal a mob they had engaged first.

[Ambrotos]

If it moves in a open zone it's a fair game and not a camp.

[quido]

can I camp every static in a closed zone? is that a camp?

[lordlandric]

thanks uteunayr . well that is basically what happed. We were in the back by the tower killing findel grobb and the first skellie we grabbed she apparently had snared and was out of view running around gathering more. so didn't realize it til she ran back and explained. feel bad about taking the mob that's when it all exploded. I didn't think you could camp the entire area of roamers. I never had an issue like that before. everyone had there groups and ran and pulled something back to there group and helped kill yard trash back in the day. I appreciate the answer and yes I read the server rules hehe.

[lordlandric]

thank you ambrotos I thought that's how is was. it wasn't trying to get something like the ac to pop in south ro. its all just random mobs walking all over that area except the bandits on top of that mountain which I understand would be a static camp.

[radditsu]

A camp is an overly explained constuct with an precise definition because neckbeards cant get along and be human beings. I blame the earth slowing its rotation by .0000000006 meters a day causing the humans chemical brain balance to slowly degrade.



We are living in Southland Tales time.

[JayN]

everything is FTE, most players respect each others camps

[Ambrotos]

thank you ambrotos I thought that's how is was. it wasn't trying to get something like the ac to pop in south ro. its all just random mobs walking all over that area except the bandits on top of that mountain which I understand would be a static camp.

I think even with the changes to AC camp in south ro the staff deemed it a fte mob also. It was unclassic how it was spawning before and Nilbog fixed it iirc.

[Uteunayr]

I think that's right for South Ro, since it spawned in... I want to say 3 separate locations as a wanderer? The old rules from back then were taken down though in favor of the Play Nice Policy post Derubael posted, so it's hard to link it up to how it worked back then (from my position, anyway). The OOT one is the stable non-wandering AC, and that one I believe is campable.

[Ambrotos]

Correcto.

[lordlandric]

Thanks again for all your help. I hope there wont be any issues tomarrow night there when I come on to play. Unless she is there pling then there might be again unfortunately :( . This is the first time I have ever had any issues or even posted about something lol. just wanted to make sure I understood the rules and was playing within the guide lines

[Karkona]

Thats a weird place to power level, the only rare there is Ocullys Ogrefiend but, have no idea if he can be forced to spawn or is just on one of those long timers. Nobody can claim a whole mountain or an island right? Like Seafuries, nobody can have all of them because they say so.

[Ambrotos]

There are tons of areas for people to exp at. Even as a player if I see someone has a far off section of a zone to themselves and they are killing everything without a problem I just move on. I wouldn't want someone moving in on my area after being there for a while, doing just fine.

In the end it's a lot easier to just do that and find some place else to exp. Lot better than getting pissed and get in a ksing war with someone else. Then everyone gets hammered if a guide shows up.

You can always petition and hope to get a guide to respond. Depending on the time you might not be able to, I know the staff does respond to petitions as soon as they can when they see them come in. Deleting petitions takes longer than settling issues in game tbh.

Sometimes it's better just to move on. There are rules, but sometimes it isn't worth it to ruin yours and their night.

Up to you tho!

[Ahldagor]

are the server rules starting to eat the server now?

[Erica]

In 58 1/2 levels I've only ran into camp issues twice. People for the most part seem to respect camps, though might sneak pulls from someone elses when they can't find anything else up. But confronted they stop usually.

(While in KC) A GM told me that a camp is whatever you can see from where you are sitting. IE Hand room is only a camp of 4 mobs and if you have been clearing WL, it is still FFA. LCY is that main room, plus the next room with the well in it but nothing behind the doors in that room. Obviously wouldn't apply to DL, or you could camp a huge section of the zone, going by what you can see. They also told me you can't pull through someone elses camp, so according to them I could set up my camp right outside the hand room, and they would not be allowed to pull anything but the 4 hands.

I know the GMs are busy and aren't paid, but it would be nice if the rules in general, especially on some things like this were gone into in more detail with specific examples. Seems like the rules change slightly GM to GM when it comes to camps.

[iruinedyourday]

There are tons of areas for people to exp at. Even as a player if I see someone has a far off section of a zone to themselves and they are killing everything without a problem I just move on. I wouldn't want someone moving in on my area after being there for a while, doing just fine.

In the end it's a lot easier to just do that and find some place else to exp. Lot better than getting pissed and get in a ksing war with someone else. Then everyone gets hammered if a guide shows up.

You can always petition and hope to get a guide to respond. Depending on the time you might not be able to, I know the staff does respond to petitions as soon as they can when they see them come in. Deleting petitions takes longer than settling issues in game tbh.

Sometimes it's better just to move on. There are rules, but sometimes it isn't worth it to ruin yours and their night.

Up to you tho!

^^This! :) I have found 99% of the people I talk to that are at a camp are actually really cool and generous and not jerks and will say either, 'going to be here a while, this is my night off from work' or 'sure lets share' or 'Ill take off after this pull'. Eq is a funny game like that, its typically anti social, because you are not leaving your house and are living a life in a virtual world but ironically that's exactly what it is, a virtual world. If you talk to someone, they respond the same way someone would in real life.

its so weird haha. But I digress, you do have to reach out to people here and respect their space too.

Also if you are in Rathe trying to kill things, you are at an amazing central location to head in virtually any direction to find a level appropriate strange camp that you never camped in classic! Goblins in the lake, head north to runnyeye, oh man there is a huge game out there that is secret and safe if you just snoop around. Take moments like this to smell the roses. :D

[Cecily]

(While in KC) A GM told me that a camp is whatever you can see from where you are sitting. IE Hand room is only a camp of 4 mobs and if you have been clearing WL, it is still FFA. LCY is that main room, plus the next room with the well in it but nothing behind the doors in that room. Obviously wouldn't apply to DL, or you could camp a huge section of the zone, going by what you can see. They also told me you can't pull through someone elses camp, so according to them I could set up my camp right outside the hand room, and they would not be allowed to pull anything but the 4 hands..

This devious how can I fuck someone over within the rules thinking is why this game sucks, on both a grouping and raiding level. Quit being a douche. Respect other people's camps. Most players consider Hands / WLs a singular camp, regardless of GM interference. Trying to restrict a group of 6 players to 4 mobs is just inhumane.

[Erica]

This devious how can I fuck someone over within the rules thinking is why this game sucks, on both a grouping and raiding level. Quit being a douche. Respect other people's camps. Most players consider Hands / WLs a singular camp, regardless of GM interference. Trying to restrict a group of 6 players to 4 mobs is just inhumane.

Why would you read that and assume it is something that I actively do, or want to do? I was pointing out that the definition of a camp the GM gave me is very flawed. Restricting a camp to what you can see, in a place with a ton of walls is not good. I am totally in favor of hand/WL and surrounding areas being one camp, but according to what the GM said it is not.

[Cecily]

That's the point. If you call a GM in to mediate a camp dispute, you'll likely get a resolution far less in your interest than just moving on or waiting for the camp to open. Camps are player defined, not GM defined. Learn what these are, and hope people agree to not be jerks about it.

[Swish]

Don't be lawyered off anything unless its a static spawn that someone was already sitting at when you turned up.

Unfortunately the sheen soon wears off the "help each other" mentality if there's pixels involved. TunnelQuest is srs business and not to be taken lightly on blue. Thankfully there's other servers if the bickering, sniping and lawyering gets to you ;)

[Cecily]

This thread wouldn't happen red.

[Daldaen]

Other servers where you can cross Norrath and not run into a single other person. Because bad rule sets lead to no one wanting to play on those servers.

[Swish]

Other servers where you can cross Norrath and not run into a single other person. Because bad rule sets lead to no one wanting to play on those servers.

That's just like...your opinion, Daldaen :)

[Daldaen]

Numbers don't lie friend.

Red is always 1/3rd or less than the population of blue. It's quite empty and you don't run into anyone :/. Especially since the entire server is /anon and /role. People are afraid to interact with others.

But... Since we are talking. I figured I'd share with you my favorite GIF:

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/x/image/1392/70/1392703243961.gif

No one is ^ this level of rustled in this thread... But hot damn are the RNF ForumQuesters at Maximum Rustle.

[Swish]

You're right numbers don't lie. Red was regularly 1/10 of blue a few months ago, so 1/3 of blue is quite the achievement.

There's always people in gfay/crushbone, field of bone and such. If you started a troll/ogre or an erudite I'd see your point about not seeing anyone for a while :p

[Daldaen]

1/3 was me being extremely generous. Currently it's about 1/5.

But if Red fixed all it's non-classic elements, it would be way more happening:

No PvP Yellow Text.
No global OOC
Standard Group EXP Bonuses, not this bogus that red has
Item Loot
No Item Clicky Recharge

Every time I get on red I end up logging after 5 minutes because of how unclassic it is. It ruins my immersion to see yellow text followed by 20 people saying PRAS in non-classic global OOC.

[Ravager]

This thread wouldn't happen red.

That's because nothing happens on Red.

[NegaStoat]

Don't be lawyered off anything unless its a static spawn that someone was already sitting at when you turned up.

Unfortunately the sheen soon wears off the "help each other" mentality if there's pixels involved. TunnelQuest is srs business and not to be taken lightly on blue. Thankfully there's other servers if the bickering, sniping and lawyering gets to you ;)


Every single fucking thread on blue that has some form of a problem, be it KSing, poopsocking, or ninja looters has 2-3 reds on it going "roll red pathetic blubies, we don't have these problems there you pathetic blubies." I don't think I have EVER seen a blue comment like that on the red forums, yet it literally happens EVRY SINGLE FUCKING BLUE THREAD. I'm sure I'll be flamed with all sorts of "mad blubie" comments for this.

If it's really gotten this bad, feel free to link those posts in the petition/exploit forum and we will take care of it.

Few, if any, red players should be coming over here to do that now outside of RnF. If you see it in Server Chat, and it's unprovoked, let us know.

[Cecily]

PvP is a more civilized way to deal with camp disputes than we have here. Just it's EQ... not a great PvP game.

[Rellapse40]

rarely i agree with retti

but he is spot on

[Clark]

A camp is whatever I let you have.

lol

[Clark]

But if Red fixed all it's non-classic elements, it would be way more happening:

No PvP Yellow Text.
No global OOC
Standard Group EXP Bonuses, not this bogus that red has
Item Loot
No Item Clicky Recharge

It ruins my immersion to see yellow text followed by 20 people saying PRAS in non-classic global OOC.

[Rellapse40]

blue players want a more classic red server

they play on a less classic server than red

lol

spell duck much?

[iruinedyourday]

blue players want a more classic red server

they play on a less classic server than red

lol

spell duck much?

I cant wait for someone to find proof that duck casting was in classic.

[Rellapse40]

Gluck

[Swish]

1/3 was me being extremely generous. Currently it's about 1/5.

But if Red fixed all it's non-classic elements, it would be way more happening:

No PvP Yellow Text.
No global OOC
Standard Group EXP Bonuses, not this bogus that red has
Item Loot
No Item Clicky Recharge

Every time I get on red I end up logging after 5 minutes because of how unclassic it is. It ruins my immersion to see yellow text followed by 20 people saying PRAS in non-classic global OOC.

Turn off ooc/put it into a minimized window.

ez pz.

[webrunner5]

Unfortunately this game sort of reflects real life. There is some really nice people you meet and some people that are not the nicest people you ever met.

I think there are sort of more people that play P1999 in some of the top Guilds that fit in the latter.

[Ikonoclastia]

Unfortunately this game sort of reflects real life. There is some really nice people you meet and some people that are not the nicest people you ever met.

I think there are sort of more people that play P1999 in some of the top Guilds that fit in the latter.
The reverse asshole filter. Never met so many drama queens, losers and asshats then when I joined the raiding scene on live.

People who are decent and want to "play" the game drop from guild because of the shit atmosphere while people who loot whore, spend 30+ hours a week at "the job" stay until the guild is made up primarily of the assholes.

And then of course you have the inevitable RMT, bank thefts, training, etc etc that comes from having guilds full of ftards.

Yes I'm bitter.

Played EvE Online for 10 years and same thing happens in corps n alliances so it's an mmo game design problem I guess.

[Tasslehofp99]

The reverse asshole filter. Never met so many drama queens, losers and asshats then when I joined the raiding scene on live.

People who are decent and want to "play" the game drop from guild because of the shit atmosphere while people who loot whore, spend 30+ hours a week at "the job" stay until the guild is made up primarily of the assholes.

And then of course you have the inevitable RMT, bank thefts, training, etc etc that comes from having guilds full of ftards.

Yes I'm bitter.

Played EvE Online for 10 years and same thing happens in corps n alliances so it's an mmo game design problem I guess.

Its just the human element to these games.

[t0lkien]

Its just the human element to these games.

Yes. There is no way to design away people being assholes without removing all the meaningful interaction from games (i.e. every modern MMO in existence now).

If you want gameplay freedom, it will always include the ability to be an asshole. Kind of like life.

[tanknspank]

The reverse asshole filter.
The players who take the game the most seriously are the ones who will be the most successful in terms of top content. Since they take the game seriously they're the ones most likely to value pixels>people or get worked up over pixels issues.

Which EVE power block were you aligned with? Former TEST then N3 player here.

[Uteunayr]

Yes. There is no way to design away people being assholes without removing all the meaningful interaction from games (i.e. every modern MMO in existence now).

If you want gameplay freedom, it will always include the ability to be an asshole. Kind of like life.

I don't know just how much I agree with this. Certainly, there are always going to be assholes, but the problem that occurs is the centralization of assholes in endgame due to the job-like nature of it.

End game in most MMOs are fairly similar, but EverQuest did the build up levels in a very different way by early design, and it creates what, in my opinion was, the best structure to date in a MMO for creating some decency and putting consequences on assholish behavior.

Assholes exist in real life, there is certainly that element, but it happens significantly more when people are able to act independently of one another, and not rely upon one another for means of survival or for means of attaining goals. So long as people actively view that they need others, assholish behavior which removes their potential to gain the help of others, puts them at a significant disadvantage, and is discouraged.

This is what I loved about much of the early and build up to EverQuest... Before you have a guild, before you have a raiding organization or whatever you wish to look at it as, each person is in a game world where death has major consequence, where travel is difficult, where each person needs others to really make their way through this game with any relative ease. The game servers were each, individually, small enough, and leveling was arduous enough that your name had attached to it a certain reputation. Being an asshole gave you a reputation, and you could start to feel the negative consequences of that behavior through reduces ports, reduced rezzes, and the like. This made the game ultimately harder.

What removes this is when you do what WoW has done and you instance off everything, and let people random queue into whatever you want. Or when you do what EQ did and let NPCs replace the function of people, allowing each player to act independent of the rest of the player base. Or, what simply happens as an EQ world gets older, people join up into raiding guilds and groups, and can be assholes to those not in that group because each guild is a self-contained organization that can provide for every aspect of what the player requires, freeing them up to terrorize or be assholes to the rest of the player base.

Most games, you get assholes from the start. EverQuest at least pushed it off until you were looking at raiding and the endgame. I'd like to believe that there is a way to structure a game which takes advantage of this player interdependence all the way to endgame, rather than it ending when you look at raiding. It may come with the cost of there being no raiding, or being another type of endgame content.

But like I said at the start, I don't know how much I agree or disagree with the idea that it is inevitable. If it is possible to keep reputation costs mattering at high level, then I think it will be possible. However, if there is no way to keep one's reputation mattering at higher level, then it probably is inevitable. Classic EQ had the advantage of a very short timeline relative to Project 1999, so we have significantly more clustering and xenophobia created between guilds as they cluster and build up, ultimately leading to the type of negative and crappy behavior that we see as rampant. I don't have an answer in mind as to how to keep reputation as important, or rather how to keep players relying upon each other, when they are able to join together into guilds and become self-contained units. And I definitely don't have an answer as to how to do it for as long as it would be needed here. Hence, I am not sure how much I agree or disagree yet.

[fastboy21]

its inevitable.

the freedom that makes EQ great is what allows folks to be jerks. its what allows folks to be genuinely "good" to each other as well. this is why i really like EQ. take the freedom away from the players to be good or bad to one another and you wind up with a cookie-cutter bland mmo (like the ones we've been playing for the last dozen years).

muscling someone out of a camp (or into respecting one) by being a jerk isn't against the rules. at least, in and of itself, it isn't against the rules. training, KSing, etc would be (go play on red) against them. its classic. if there weren't folks /ooc'ing about trains and KSs it wouldn't be real EQ.

I.E. Being a jerk is allowed in EQ...it can suck, but its a dimension of EQ that makes it more real---and ironically, enhances the quality of relationships you can form with your actual friends in game.

[Cecily]

Fantastic post, Uteunayr. I've always felt that reputation being largely meaningless here was unfortunate, and I agree it does boil down to the isolated guild communities. When you're only concerned with the welfare of your group, "because we can" tends to guide action.

[Messianic]

It ruins my immersion to see yellow text followed by 20 people saying PRAS in non-classic global OOC.

This made me lol pretty hard. Because even though I spend very little time on red and haven't seen this, briefly sifting through the PvP forums makes it completely believable.

[Lagaidh]

If it moves in a open zone it's a fair game and not a camp.

Which frustrated many a Quillmane drama. It's there for every one of my alts to enjoy as they go through the 20s.

[Millburn]

Which EVE power block were you aligned with? Former TEST then N3 player here.

This sounds like Martyr's Vengeance, did you join S2N or a different alliance in N3?

[Nirgon]

1/3 was me being extremely generous. Currently it's about 1/5.

But if Red fixed all it's non-classic elements, it would be way more happening:

No PvP Yellow Text.
No global OOC
Standard Group EXP Bonuses, not this bogus that red has
Item Loot
No Item Clicky Recharge

Every time I get on red I end up logging after 5 minutes because of how unclassic it is. It ruins my immersion to see yellow text followed by 20 people saying PRAS in non-classic global OOC.

But if there's no YT how will I know when someone dies to shower them with hatred/racism