Melee PvP on Project Red99

[Combobreaker]

Is truly atrocious, it always has been - I pushed for a fix back during Beta on the melee range problem however it has eluded a proper solution, hopefully we can change this fairly easy? fix.

There is currently NO face-check on melee pvp. You can literally stand ~10yards away, about-face & continue to swing regardless of range/distinction.

For example, rogues don't need to be facing the back of an enemy target - they just have to be placed BEHIND them. (WHICH IS BAD FOR GOOD PVPS).


Is there anyway to check the current melee range restrictions and compare them to the NPC range? I ask this because you are REQUIRED to face the npc aswell as be within close range (This is easier because mobs usually run to a set destination in front of you for engagement).

[Softcore PK]

You never had to be facing them to get backstabs in. On live, I mean. You'd get them as you ran through.

That said, the way things work here for melee in general is definitely off.

[Potus]

I remember Rogues not having to face me to backstab, which was horseshit and definitely a bug, yet Verant never got around to fixing it (big surprise there).

Being 10 feet away and not even facing someone and wailing on them is so not right, though. Also hit rate is way too high in PvP.

[Not Salem]

Agree it's to easy to hit people on this server

[Combobreaker]

You never had to be facing them to get backstabs in. On live, I mean. You'd get them as you ran through.

That said, the way things work here for melee in general is definitely off.

IF they never fixed it early on then I guess it's whatever, not a HUGE advantage since rogues are squishy anyway.


HOWEVER!!!!


the 10 yard melee range for pvp needs to change, please

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Hit rate is through the roof.

If you had that kind of hit rate in pve you would be a farming god.

[no chewie dont]

hit rate seems reasonable but the 360 degree hit box is the problem
hit box on beta seemed legit from what i remember

[Ezpk]

hit rate seems reasonable but the 360 degree hit box is the problem
hit box on beta seemed legit from what i remember

I'd say there's easily a 10 yard range for melee pvp when standing still, it's pretty bad

[Softcore PK]

Hitbox was always 360 degrees on live. It's a little too big, though.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Had rune 5 and 1100hp. Got pk'd by a rogue in FV - 1 miss throughout the whole fight. That's a little over the top. Even on a clothie

[Nirgon]

Since they're fudging ac/atk in pve to fit the current formula... expect this to be broken.


Way I'd think to go about it is get logs on live with chars of varying level ranges melee'ing each other with gear obtainable on P99 -> get that behavior duplicated here -> tweak pve values from there (should turn out to be actual values).

Until then, its neva gonna be right unless flat miss chances etc are just coded into pvp..

It's not horrible but its very high

[Potus]

Any one have some classic pvp screens/logs? Should be able to get a rough estimate of how often people were hitting.

I remember people missing a lot and I was a fragile clothie.

[Nirgon]

Depends if they had shielding / buffs etc..

This should all parse out the same on live with the same items/levels with 0 AA.

[hivemind]

hit rate seems reasonable but the 360 degree hit box is the problem
hit box on beta seemed legit from what i remember

I cannot personally comment on the hit rate in any meaningful way, but I recently submitted a bug very much in line with the OP. Chewie underlines what I see as the main component of this melee PVP bug: you do not need to be facing your target whatsoever to perform melee attacks on them in PVP (stark opposite of PVE).

I did a little testing a few weeks ago to try to understand how exactly auto attack worked in PVP. From my testing, I discerned there is essentially only two conditions that needs to be met in order for you to perform auto attacks against a target:

1) Auto attack on
2) your character model in range (10 yards-ish?) to your target

Your target can be standing 10 yards directly behind you, and if you have them targeted and turn on auto attack, you will start swinging at them all the while seeing a spam of errors in your combat log that "You cannot see your target". You continue getting these errors as you swing (and hit or miss) them.

So, when meleeing on this server during PVP, it is best to think of yourself as having a 10 yard radius of influence (or however large the actual range is), and anything that comes within that 10 yard radius you can attack (regardless of which direction you are facing).

Definitely not how I remember classic PVP... and the fact that your combat log gets spammed with "You cannot see your target" as you are swinging (and hitting) them makes the situation seem even more suspect.

[Nirgon]

Joust backstab worked because of this on live. You did not have to face.

[Colgate]

and the fact that your combat log gets spammed with "You cannot see your target" as you are swinging (and hitting) them makes the situation seem even more suspect.

probably a product of this being the titanium client

[Potus]

Joust backstab worked because of this on live. You did not have to face.

Pretty sure joust backstab worked because the client got confused about the rogue not being behind and facing the target.

Kind of the same way it gets confused about casters stopping and casting spells, it takes an extra half second for the server to register where the player character is in the world.

Both were bugs but Verant/Sony never got around to ever fixing it.

[Nirgon]

One thing is for sure. I will absolutely concede this after testing backstab jousting.


The range where you can hit a player is about 4-5x too long. It is absolutely way too big and trivializes jousting/chasing mechanics in pvp.


I'd be happy to demonstrate this for a dev with a rogue in game.


On live from classic even into Kunark, it has always been the case that rogue backstab checks 2 things and only 2 things when hitting another player:

1 - am I behind the target
2 - am I in range of the target




Potus's eyes only:
This does make pvping on casters easier because melee can reach you from too far away here, at least with special attacks (hi bash) and definitely backstab you way too easily.

[hivemind]

Pretty sure joust backstab worked because the client got confused about the rogue not being behind and facing the target.

Kind of the same way it gets confused about casters stopping and casting spells, it takes an extra half second for the server to register where the player character is in the world.

Both were bugs but Verant/Sony never got around to ever fixing it.

This. It is in no way classic for melee to be able to hit players with auto or special attacks while not facing the target. Joust backstab worked in classic if you could time the backstab perfectly while running through the player. Eh... but I never played a rogue during classic, and I was playing on 56k anyway... so my perception of jousting in general during that time is a bit odd.

Nearly positive you should not be able to freely auto attack players that are standing directly behind you. Not during classic, not during now... shit is buggy as hell. Gives melee a huge advantage, especially when coupled with the seemingly massive melee attack range of players.

[Nirgon]

So if you never turned to face them how did it work? It should be possible without turning to face but the range (like I said) is 5x too large.

[Combobreaker]

^

[Crazycloud]

Hit box SUPER broken. Was chasing someone down and he was hitting me while running (not facing me) from (VERY) far away. He just had auto attack on and ran away.

This was never like this on live. Yes you were able to joust backstab and it actually took skill on live. But here the hit box needs a lot of work.

[Potus]

It's not that much better against NPCs, when you run directly away from a mob it will hit you with magical extendo arms -- makes strafe running even more necessary.

[Technique]

Ranges are calculated simply using the size of either the attacker or defender, whichever is larger. There are no hitboxes for this purpose.

Melee range is the same for both players and NPCs of a given size. Melee and backstab range are the same.

For anyone who thinks these ranges are "4-5x too long", the classic range function mentioned in this (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163476) thread produces the same or even longer ranges in some cases.

[Nirgon]

Ya that's great and everything but you can backstab from 5 character models away here. I could barely do it when I played people's rogues on live from time to time. It was extremely hard.

Here? Heh.

[Technique]

There's an old decompiled client function in that thread I linked that produces the same or even longer max ranges as the one being used on this server.

Where's your proof to show that these ranges are 5x too long?

Oh—you don't have any, just more exaggerations and addled anecdotes.

[Nirgon]

My prof sir?

We had a good chuckle as Kringe demonstrated the backstab range in burning woods on red.... he inched further and further out (not facing the target which is fine) from behind the target and landed them up to about 4-6 character models away.

None of us present agreed there was anything right with it.

I realize this change may make buttons harder to push.


Even longer range you say? Is 10 character models sufficient? How about 15?

[Technique]

None of us present agreed there was anything right with it.Your opinion on what's right or not means jack shit. You need proof from Live to dispute what's currently in place on p99, clown.

If this GoD-era change:

AUGUST 11, 2004

PvP Changes.
* Melee attacks have a 50% increased range. This does not affect thrown weapons or archery.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20040811.htmlis accounted for, it should be possible to reconcile the current range on Live with that decompiled client function and the EQEMu default and come to a conclusion.

[Ezpk]

bump for relevance

[Nirgon]

Great changes, Technique super mad

[Crazycloud]

Great changes, Technique super mad

mad and dumb

[Technique]

Mad, huh...when I was the only one to post evidence that the classic range was possibly shorter, which prompted the change to make it shorter.

You must have that brain rot they're always talking about.

[Nirgon]

yes you come off as an angry (read: mad) person most of the time




oh and the changes are great so far minus a few cc spell tweaks we mentioned


In another thread you mention sitting damage is correct in pvp. Last night, I hit a sitting lvl 60 druid for 1 damage with my epic. Doesn't look right to me shoulda been like 40dmg. I have no evidence that a lvl 60 wizard hitting a 60 sitting who is sitting should not to 1 dmg. Guess we should leave it alone!

[Crazycloud]

Mad, huh...when I was the only one to post evidence that the classic range was possibly shorter, which prompted the change to make it shorter.

You must have that brain rot they're always talking about.

mad and dumb

[Nirgon]

He's got some on point posts here and there. He also keeps us from getting too carried away with requests without evidence. I'll keep em. Bugs and Flames wouldn't be the same without him.

[Pikrib]

oh and the changes are great so far minus a few cc spell tweaks we mentioned


In another thread you mention sitting damage is correct in pvp. Last night, I hit a sitting lvl 60 druid for 1 damage with my epic. Doesn't look right to me shoulda been like 40dmg. I have no evidence that a lvl 60 wizard hitting a 60 sitting who is sitting should not to 1 dmg. Guess we should leave it alone!

CC spell tweaks? Some of this CC shit is REALLY broken atm.

I thought sitting damage was working fine a while ago and now maybe it got broken when AC changes were put in.

[Nirgon]

Yeah I saw Rushx get blinded, but I'm sure it was after a malo.

I'm very reluctant to start up a huge fix it now thread, we just got the patch of a life time. Everything reported should be very easily fixable, I'm happy to give it a rest for a little while.

Also, Haynar seems to have the ability to make DB tweaks for changes and it doesn't require bouncing the server, so I feel good about it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

He got dispels working, buffs jumping up to open slots (most of the time, appears to be some weirdness there) and a ton of other majorly classic systems that didn't even exist before in place. Who knows maybe classic stamina (aka endurance to some) will get fixed next :).

Maybe I'll move on to whittling or collecting baseball cards after Haynar has crushed the classic shitlist. It will be a happy day and I will look back with fond memories on my times having heated discussions with other men in their late 20s to mid 30s on how EQ mechanics worked.

[Technique]

In another thread you mention sitting damage is correct in pvp. Last night, I hit a sitting lvl 60 druid for 1 damage with my epic. Doesn't look right to me shoulda been like 40dmg. I have no evidence that a lvl 60 wizard hitting a 60 sitting who is sitting should not to 1 dmg. Guess we should leave it alone!I made that (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1670218&postcount=48) post over a month ago. Your observation was from last night. Guess what happened in the meantime: a major patch. You know what usually happens with a major patch? Unintentional changes.

It should be looked into and fixed.