Dexterity for casters? Request for information

[Adolphus]

Background:

I enjoy figuring out how to min/max characters in Everquest. Despite the fact that stats mean far less in classic Everquest than almost any other online game, there are still ways to obtain some added benefit from gearing/rolling characters correctly.

I recently decided to roll a Wizard. I understand the obvious need for INT and mana for this class. However, after doing calculations on the equipment wiki, I determined that Wizard is not too difficult to hard cap at 255 INT, starting with a base of only 100 INT. And this is only in Kunark. Considering Velious is on the way, I'm assuming that INT will be hardcapped extremely easily. That leaves room for another bonus upon character creation. And thus my question . . .

Question:

Dexterity. I've read on the wikipedia that Dexterity affects concentration for casters. That means recovery from interrupts. This seems like a big deal as a statistic. If it turns out that Dexterity has a large impact on a caster's ability to recover from interrupts, it seems like this would be the natural secondary statistic to work for many casting classes.

Does anyone have any data on Dexterity relative to casters? Logs or code to show how this works, how effective it is etc? Input from the dev team would seem the most helpful and best outcome here, if lucky enough to have a response. Thanks in advance.

[koros]

Background:

I enjoy figuring out how to min/max characters in Everquest. Despite the fact that stats mean far less in classic Everquest than almost any other online game, there are still ways to obtain some added benefit from gearing/rolling characters correctly.

I recently decided to roll a Wizard. I understand the obvious need for INT and mana for this class. However, after doing calculations on the equipment wiki, I determined that Wizard is not too difficult to hard cap at 255 INT, starting with a base of only 100 INT. And this is only in Kunark. Considering Velious is on the way, I'm assuming that INT will be hardcapped extremely easily. That leaves room for another bonus upon character creation. And thus my question . . .

Question:

Dexterity. I've read on the wikipedia that Dexterity affects concentration for casters. That means recovery from interrupts. This seems like a big deal as a statistic. If it turns out that Dexterity has a large impact on a caster's ability to recover from interrupts, it seems like this would be the natural secondary statistic to work for many casting classes.

Does anyone have any data on Dexterity relative to casters? Logs or code to show how this works, how effective it is etc? Input from the dev team would seem the most helpful and best outcome here, if lucky enough to have a response. Thanks in advance.

If has no effect whatsoever.

[Thulack]

If has no effect whatsoever.

and you also have to take in consideration when min/maxing the fact if you do stack something that is easily able to be capped then with gear it leaves you plenty of slots for hp,mana,resist gear.

[Adolphus]

If has no effect whatsoever.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Statistics#Dexterity_.28DEX.29

"Affects: Concentration (resistance to spell interrupts), Bard Song missed notes; Melee skill-ups, Procs, Crits (allegedly)"


http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47336

"High dexterity increases melee proc rate in a major way. It also greatly affects how well you channel thru spell interruption. I am really surprised people don't mention it as one of the more important stats for a casting class."


There is enough here to tell me that there is a possibility that Dexterity does affect interruption on spell casting. Just saying "If has no effect whatsoever" without presenting any evidence adds nothing to this thread. Not trying to be an asshole, just want serious closure on this question. Parsing, logs, developer posts etc would be needed to answer this definitely.

[koros]

It has no effect, if you want to believe some bogus posts feel free, but it's completely skill based. It's been well understood that it doesn't affect channeling since the very early days of EQ.

[Adolphus]

It has no effect, if you want to believe some bogus posts feel free, but it's completely skill based. It's been well understood that it doesn't affect channeling since the very early days of EQ.

I don't want to believe anything. I want to find out the truth. It's on the wikipedia page for p1999. People have stated that it works on the forum here. That post is no more or less valid than your currents posts in this thread because you don't have any more evidence to support your claim than he did.

[Ikonoclastia]

On live it affected channelling through interrupts... whether it does on here I'm not sure. Very easy to google with 1999-2002 as filters to see that.

[Adolphus]

On live it affected channelling through interrupts... whether it does on here I'm not sure. Very easy to google with 1999-2002 as filters to see that.

So far we have someone saying it absolutely affects nothing, while you're saying it affects interrupts on live (adding to the current statements and wikipedia I linked earlier).

I wish we could find a definitive answer for p1999! We're going to need a developer response to this, unless we have someone that can parse or log this on a caster class. I don't have a caster class yet, unfortunately, or I'd do it myself.

[Nefarum]

Your question about dex doesn't really matter because no stats are relevant for a caster except hp, mana, and resists. Yes it's easy to cap your int, but you will still want to max out your starting int so you can keep it capped easily while devoting equipment slots to resist gear and +hp/+mana gear.

The short answer is max out your starting int (maximize mana) then put the rest into stamina (to increase hp).

[Ciroco]

Why doesn't it matter? He wants to know if dexterity affects channeling. It's a good question.

[Nefarum]

I say it doesn't matter because any effect that putting points into dex would (maybe) have would barely affect anything, and be basically negligible overall. Concentration barely matters at high levels anyways, especially on raids, and if mobs are hitting you at a high level you're going to die very fast.

Hp, mana, and resists matter in a tangible way, so if you're looking to min/max following what I said above is the way to go.

[Ciroco]

Okay, then I want to know if dexterity affects channeling for the sake of knowing.

[Nefarum]

Fair enough. Don't know the answer to the dex question. Figured id help the OP with his min/maxing though.

[Jimjam]

Put your points in to strength. When your sat in a group grinding for 6+ hours solid you're going to be encumbered and the more str you have the less loot you need to destroy ;).

[iruinedyourday]

Op's signature makes me feel like that's what is reaction is like eveytime he reads a reply here.

[Ikonoclastia]

Dexterity

This determines how hard you hit with your bows, how quickly you learn weapon and rogue skills, and how often a magic weapon will process it's skill. This is a good skill to have for fighters, especially rangers and rogues, and of only limited use for magic users.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/Creation.htm

Dexterity: Dexterity affects how quickly you learn weapon skills, and how often weapons will do their special. Since Shadow Knights get a number of weapons which proc, and some spells which do this also, there is a definite advantage to putting some points into this statistic. It will also help to increase their channeling skill so they are not interrupted as often when hit while casting.
http://eqthieves.com/class-shadowknight-creation.htm

Both Player comments but this pretty much clinches it, its a supplement for the original EQ manual:

Dexterity:
This is your hand/eye coordination and is used in combat accuracy and spell casting capability. This is used in calculating your missile combat skills and aids in determining if you are interrupted when you are hit while casting a spell.
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/com1/playg.html

Edit: theres most likely 3 checks, agility (avoids getting hit and interrupting), dexterity (you do get hit and determines if you are interrupted), channeling (if you are interrupted whether you continue casting the spell). So they're likely not wasted though the degree's to which each helps I have no idea

[Iumuno]

It was a myth. As far as I remember it was debunked.

[Synthlol]

AFAIK, Dexterity is the statistic which governs the skill-up rate of the Channeling skill.

[Nuggie]

Dexterity for casters is classic. The things we did before we knew better...

[Adolphus]

Appreciate the responses but so far we have "it works" and "it doesn't work" which doesn't resolve the issue. Anyone with logs or parsing, or developer response is needed. Also, I'd be happy to do the parsing myself but I haven't any caster classes.

I suppose I will have to level up and do the parsing, but that will take quite some time sadly.

[Tecmos Deception]

Parsing this would be a nightmare.

[Adolphus]

Parsing this would be a nightmare.

I know it, hence my desire for someone with actual information/evidence to resolve. But I suppose it might be done with Soloist's Icy Wand? At least I'd only have to get to level 12 to try it

[Messianic]

It's an interesting question and worthy of investigation. However, you'll get vastly more benefit out of hp/mana/int/resist gear than you will ever get out if dex. I chime in only to point out that hp gear is incredibly valuable for a wizard early on and mana gear is more valuable than int gear early on.


Thought experiment: if you could ignore int/mana/hp gear to get a 50% better channeling rate, would you?

Nope. And evidence indicates the difference can't be that much.

[Adolphus]

It's an interesting question and worthy of investigation. However, you'll get vastly more benefit out of hp/mana/int/resist gear than you will ever get out if dex. I chime in only to point out that hp gear is incredibly valuable for a wizard early on and mana gear is more valuable than int gear early on.


Thought experiment: if you could ignore int/mana/hp gear to get a 50% better channeling rate, would you?

Nope. And evidence indicates the difference can't be that much.

While this is true, INT is easy to max. If we're talking a level 60 epic wizard with MAX INT, good resist gear etc, then the proper place to work on might be DEX if it helps with channeling through interrupt.

Also, for the power solo classes like Shaman and Enchanter it becomes even more important. Getting interrupted is a big deal I imagine. Significant reduction of that would be a worthwhile investment.

[fastboy21]

the reason nobody knows is because nobody has cared enough to do the testing it would require.

the reason nobody has cared enough to do the testing is that during regular game play it doesn't affect things enough to concern most players.

if the op, or anyone else, is interested in finding the answer the only way its gonna happen is if you parse it out yourself. which, by the way, would not only be extremely difficult and time consuming but also nearly impossible to do.

if i was going to parse it, i would start with a bard with max dex at lvl 60. start tapping your songs and see how frequently they miss a note. do this several thousand times. then repeat with as low a dex as you can get. compare.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

It has no effect, if you want to believe some bogus posts feel free, but it's completely skill based. It's been well understood that it doesn't affect channeling since the very early days of EQ.

Incorrect answer. The only thing that has been well-understood since the very early days of EQ is that eventually in threads like this people start posting Excel spreadsheets.

[HippoNipple]

I found this equation explaining the relationship between dexterity, channeling skill and chance to regain concentration.

http://formula.algebra.com/cgi-bin/plot-formula.mpl?expression=2log%28%287%5E3%29%29%2Blog %28%287%5E%282x%29%29%29=log%28%287%5E%283x-5%29%29%29&x=0003

[Pyrocat]

A+ post bro, good job, never stop posting, ur a funny dude, you bring value to this community, gold star, post of the year

[Messianic]

While this is true, INT is easy to max. If we're talking a level 60 epic wizard with MAX INT, good resist gear etc, then the proper place to work on might be DEX if it helps with channeling through interrupt.

Nope. HP or pure mana gear is most likely more valuable. If you're level 60 and getting hit during a relevant fight, dying is more of an issue than channeling.

And as my thought experiment shows, how much precise benefit could you reap? If you channel 2/4 times and with Dex gear channel 3/4 times yet cost yourself 400 mana in pure mana gear or 200 hp in pure hp gear, was it worth it? Probably not, unless you spend your entire life casting through hits. Which wizards don't. And even Shaman - the only real case to be made given their method of soloing very high level mobs - are going to benefit more from max hp/ac/mana gear than that extra channel every now and then.

Also, for the power solo classes like Shaman and Enchanter it becomes even more important. Getting interrupted is a big deal I imagine. Significant reduction of that would be a worthwhile investment.

You're thinking about this in terms of either no improvement in channeling or an improvement in channeling. That's an incorrect way of thinking about it.

You're comparing +dex -Hp/mana/etc vs base dex and +HP/mana/etc.


Like I said, it's a worthwhile question since we don't know the math, but it's trivia in practice.

[Nisrak]

And as my thought experiment shows, how much precise benefit could you reap? If you channel 2/4 times and with Dex gear channel 3/4 times yet cost yourself 400 mana in pure mana gear or 200 hp in pure hp gear, was it worth it? Probably not, unless you spend your entire life casting through hits. Which wizards don't. And even Shaman - the only real case to be made given their method of soloing very high level mobs - are going to benefit more from max hp/ac/mana gear than that extra channel every now and then.


For classes like an enchanter, I think giving up 200hp for 25% more channeling (by your example) would be worth it in a group setting. 1 regained mez can easily make the difference in a harry situation.

[fastboy21]

For classes like an enchanter, I think giving up 200hp for 25% more channeling (by your example) would be worth it in a group setting. 1 regained mez can easily make the difference in a harry situation.

having 200 extra hp can easily make the difference too.

the question is whether having 200 hp makes a bigger or a smaller difference than more channeling. the 25% more you reference has no actual data to back it up, as far as i know. without data to back it up it makes very little difference what my feeling is, but I doubt you'd see that much of an increase in regular play if you did parse it out.

on my chanter channeling is rarely an issue at all in group settings. typically, in a hairy situation what matters more is my timing (i.e. when i hit the button) on my stuns. this ability isn't affected by any stat that you can modify because its twitch play more than anything.

like i said in my earlier posts, if you have such a strong intuition that dex will make a meaningful difference---enough to justify losing mana/hp---then you should invest the time to parse the data out. then share it with us.

[Clark]

A+ post bro, good job, never stop posting, ur a funny dude, you bring value to this community, gold star, post of the year

o.O

[Briscoe]

...its a supplement for the original EQ manual:


http://www.angelfire.com/nt/com1/playg.html

Some highlights from this link include:

Agility:
This is your physical dexterity

Charisma:
This is a combination of the physical beauty and charm of the character and is used primarily to calculate how various NPC factions react to the character. The higher the charisma, the less likely they will be adversely effected by actions that will lower the characters standing with a group

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Come on people, I want to see parse spreadsheets. I'm getting blue balls here, man.

[thieros]

i feel like i channel through push a lot more @ 60 on my SK than i do @ 60 on my shammy or @ 60 on my cleric.

i realize this post is worthless because ive provided 0 facts, simply speculation, but it answers a question ive always wondered of why my sk channels better than my casters. it helps me sleep at night.

[webrunner5]

Dex on A Melee matters for procs. It is a REAL big difference on a Ranger for their bow crits. On a Caster it does not do shit. Put your extra points in strength so you can carry shit unless you are rich and have 8 Tink Bags. End of story. Go play your toon instead of this silly ass min max shit.

[Frug]

> On a Caster it does not do shit.

This is every bit as useful as saying "it helps channelling". Without a parse or a dev's word... meaningless.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

parse parse parse parse parse

http://buddingculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/blutarsky.gif

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Did we give up when charisma turned out to have no effect on JC skillups for chanters?
No.
Did we give up when we realized the mosscovered twig was just a fuckup by the devs they hoped we would forget?
No.

So why would we forget dexterity and its significant, and [erhaps game-changing role, for casters?

I say, we have to put all our points in DEX.

Who's with me??

[Clark]

Come on people, I want to see parse spreadsheets. I'm getting blue balls here, man.

Lol

[Bohab]

Concentration barely matters at high levels anyways, especially on raids, and if mobs are hitting you at a high level you're going to die very fast.

It matters for enchanters that charm krups & soul harvesters

[Whirled]

Wizards should get critical spell hits ( a dex check?)

am I in b4 "not classic"?

WTS Fresh Fish 500pp cuz the wiki says so....
http://wiki.project1999.com/Fresh_Fish