The Running of the Giants

[Hasbinbad]

Ok, I think this might do it.

Everything that I said about the other system, except instead of a duel we have a weekly race to clear FG's from a full pop with a single group.

This is something that any guild who wants to raid should be able to do. It's hard, but it's doable.

If we can iron out a timekeeping method, this gives us all of the advantages of the duel system but it has 2 main advantages over it as I see things so far.

1.) It is simple.
The other system does sound like a great idea, but it is very complicated. Already I am looking at spending several hours this weekend drafting some sort of clear document that everyone is going to have to then review and hash out over the next week(s).. A wise person or two said to keep it simple, and the other system seems like a self-replicating bureaucracy nightmare when viewed from a certain point of view. I would still be down for it, but simple is better!

2.) It is PVE.
Yet still fiercely competitive. It would satisfy the killers and the carebears alike. It forces you to work together and develop more intense strategies which you can then implement in a PVE environment free from those pesky twitch reflexes you might not have spent years playing FPS acquiring.

We would have to have witnesses of course, and like I mentioned some sort of trusted or failsafe timekeeping method, but that aside, I think this would rock.

I think similar rules can apply like you can't use the same people twice consecutively? This might be modified to say that one person may be in two consecutive races but after that they must sit - this promotes long term planning and staggering the 'top' players in the lineup. Maybe something like no more than 1 of any given class? Maybe you can have 2 of one class but the other 4 need to be unique? I don't really think there needs to be much other tweaking to the ruleset.

This would allow for some GREAT PVE competition because you would have to plan for not only getting through FG's with one group, but racing through them ASAP!

The greatest thing is that this can also be seen as a built-in 'trial by fire' for new guilds wishing to join the rotation!! If they wipe in their hurry or can't do it within a certain time limit (to be determined, i guess? figure out our slowest times and round up?), then they don't get in that week. Like I said, this is something a raid guild should be able to do. We certainly did it several times around the time that we killed nagafen for the first time. I believe Trans has done it with fewer than 6 (amirite?)?

If there is a lot of rabble roused about the difficulty, we could always modify it to 2 groups, but that just wouldn't be as hard or as fun, and wouldn't really serve as a test for newcomers.

Ideas?

[Hasbinbad]

..and your guild gets loot for doing this.

..and we get a little more competition going on FG's to practice! Gives us a new reason to do so! Isn't that what we want? New reasons to relive classic content? This way doesn't change the content at all but gives us new ways to play with it!

Ideas?

[darkkor]

I think a good modification would be that no one can go twice in a kill group until everyone in the guild has gone once. This would allow even the most kickass guild to eventually use some of it's "lower tier" players and thus not able to "hold" a spawn by winning this competition indefinitely. It also wouldn't allow 1 group to grow super solid by doing it over and over and becoming too uber at it. Making sure the entire guild has to go also appeases some peoples feeling about putting the fate of their ability to raid in the hands of only 6 fellow guild members. It also makes sure the competition measures the entire guilds skill and not just it's "best" 6 players.

In the end though, no matter how fun/cool, I think this is more work than is needed for guilds to get raid spawns. I think keeping it classic as possible is the best. This is also a little harder than it seems on paper. Keeping track of who went and making sure it's legit. The timing needs to be legit. There needs to be unbiased witnesses...it's a lot really. Although if a huge majority of both guilds really wanted to do this, say, 1 week out of every month or something, that would be pretty cool. If they wanted to always do it that would be cool too. I just can't see everyone wanting to go through all of this every time, ya know?

[Hasbinbad]

I think a good modification would be that no one can go twice in a kill group until everyone in the guild has gone once.. ..It also makes sure the competition measures the entire guilds skill and not just it's "best" 6 players.
Good points.. I think something in the middle might be best?

In the end though, no matter how fun/cool, I think this is more work than is needed for guilds to get raid spawns.
FG's don't take very long and we do them anyway.

The timing does need to be legit.
..as far as witnessess.. I think 1 or 2 representatives from the other guilds would be fine.. Just to make sure there was no foul play. Which brings up the idea about seeing how the other guild does things, but the answer to that is always going to be 'yeah, but who can do it better/faster?'

[Taluvill]

Ok, I think this might do it.

Everything that I said about the other system, except instead of a duel we have a weekly race to clear FG's from a full pop with a single group.

This is something that any guild who wants to raid should be able to do. It's hard, but it's doable.

If we can iron out a timekeeping method, this gives us all of the advantages of the duel system but it has 2 main advantages over it as I see things so far.

1.) It is simple.
The other system does sound like a great idea, but it is very complicated. Already I am looking at spending several hours this weekend drafting some sort of clear document that everyone is going to have to then review and hash out over the next week(s).. A wise person or two said to keep it simple, and the other system seems like a self-replicating bureaucracy nightmare when viewed from a certain point of view. I would still be down for it, but simple is better!

2.) It is PVE.
Yet still fiercely competitive. It would satisfy the killers and the carebears alike. It forces you to work together and develop more intense strategies which you can then implement in a PVE environment free from those pesky twitch reflexes you might not have spent years playing FPS acquiring.

We would have to have witnesses of course, and like I mentioned some sort of trusted or failsafe timekeeping method, but that aside, I think this would rock.

I think similar rules can apply like you can't use the same people twice consecutively? This might be modified to say that one person may be in two consecutive races but after that they must sit - this promotes long term planning and staggering the 'top' players in the lineup. Maybe something like no more than 1 of any given class? Maybe you can have 2 of one class but the other 4 need to be unique? I don't really think there needs to be much other tweaking to the ruleset.

This would allow for some GREAT PVE competition because you would have to plan for not only getting through FG's with one group, but racing through them ASAP!

The greatest thing is that this can also be seen as a built-in 'trial by fire' for new guilds wishing to join the rotation!! If they wipe in their hurry or can't do it within a certain time limit (to be determined, i guess? figure out our slowest times and round up?), then they don't get in that week. Like I said, this is something a raid guild should be able to do. We certainly did it several times around the time that we killed nagafen for the first time. I believe Trans has done it with fewer than 6 (amirite?)?

If there is a lot of rabble roused about the difficulty, we could always modify it to 2 groups, but that just wouldn't be as hard or as fun, and wouldn't really serve as a test for newcomers.

Ideas?


Love this idea --- Really promotes everything we are going for. My only QQ with this is that this is a great idea to add to a list of games we could do.

I think i just outlined this in another post, but here goes again hehe: (all just examples BTW= P

This FG idea for week one. Transcendance wins, IB loses. Ib picks the next game.

IB picks PvP. We /ran 1-6 and get a 4. 4 man pvp tournament (you have a week to prepare)

IB wins PVP and Transcendence picks a scavenger hunt. (Dont know how this would work, but yeah.

And etc. etc. etc.

Would make things interesting. I think a single game would promote repetitiveness and a single strategy that would dominate over everything (Ex: 4 Rogues, warrior and cleric) and would just be continually utilized over everything.

My 2cents

[darkkor]

Good points.. I think something in the middle might be best?

True, it might not be possible for every single person in a guild to partake in this due to schedule or whatever and it would be stupid for one guild to forfeit because the only guy that hasn't gone yet can't log on.

Something like a majority % of the guild must take part + whoever wants to. Then just go through them until everyone has gone then people can start going back for seconds.

The main reason I said everyone at first stems from my personal view on having other people decide whether I get to raid or not. In other methods it's me and my guild, in this method my fate is in the hands of only a few people and not in mine at all.

It's also not a measure of a guilds sum of skill, which is what raiding is, so I think whatever you do to be able to raid should reflect that as well.

Once again, everyone has got to want to do all of this stuff. Most people are going to want to do it the way it was on classic because it's a huge part of the game, racing to spawns. Almost everyone remembers doing it and liked it to a certain extent. But like I said, if everyone really wants to do this stuff, it's definitely a cool idea, not trying to knock it at all, just trying to look at the big picture of the entire raiding community.

Makes me think, you guys got any solid feedback on what % of each guild is actually down for these game type competitions instead of classic racing?

[Hasbinbad]

Love this idea --- Really promotes everything we are going for.. ..utilized over everything. My 2cents
I'm really glad you like this idea! It came to me as if in a dream! XD

I read your reply and I do like the idea of a revolving set of games, but that is more rules to write and the point of this was to keep it simple. This simple contest fulfills a lot of different functions at once (raid targets, loot/xp, practice, fun, trial for new adds to the rotation, etc.), win/win imho!

[Hasbinbad]

True, it might not be possible for every single person in a guild to partake in this due to schedule or whatever and it would be stupid for one guild to forfeit because the only guy that hasn't gone yet can't log on.
The beauty of FG's is that they spawn every 8 hours. It can be done any spawn before the deadline for the week. We'd have to agree on priority for a guild doing FG's for their race, but FG's are on such farm status by both raiding guilds that this isn't a problem as I forsee it (how many times have FG's been fought over? none?).
EDIT: Also, especially as an up and coming raid guild, FG's are a major target anyway. This is something you need to do anyway to farm loot to be more dragon/planar ready. It can be done on your schedule with a minimum of coordination from the other concerned guilds (1 or 2 witnesses from each involved organization).

The main reason I said everyone at first stems from my personal view on having other people decide whether I get to raid or not.
This is a totally valid concern of an up and coming raider, and I think that you should ask around and see if FG's are as hard as you may think. Also, remember that this system is modelled around a duel-for-pick ethic, which means that even if you lose, you still get at least one if not 2 or 3 raid targets.

It's also not a measure of a guilds sum of skill, which is what raiding is, so I think whatever you do to be able to raid should reflect that as well.
While this is true, it seemed like the major gripe of the involved parties with the duel system was that it was not PVE. This is at least a PVE solution, with many advantages as I see it over the other system, which has been accepted as at least a major contender in any agreement raid guilds might come to.

[Hasbinbad]

Which brings up the idea about seeing how the other guild does things, but the answer to that is always going to be 'yeah, but who can do it better/faster?'

Last week's winner has to go first? This allows the others to have a chance to see the strategy and make it more fair? I'm sure IB wouldn't have a problem volunteering to take the lead on this if it's accepted (oh noez, yew ish going to steal mai leet FG strat?!?).

[Gildiss Gram]

I like how everything you suggest has a rotation in it.

[Hasbinbad]

I like how everything you suggest has a rotation in it.
Well, I would personally prefer FFA KS, but I'm trying to compromise in a way that is both fair and fun while promoting competition that is left out with the current straight rotation.

[Ektar]

Yeah why does everyone keep knocking hasbin for his rotation seeking. It's what he was commanded to do :p

[Pheer]

I like how everything you suggest has a rotation in it.

You mad bro?

[Gildiss Gram]

http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp103/shmokay/42-youve-activated-my-trap-card.jpg


No I like rotations. We don't have to try or anything we just get the raid mobs and do thangs. Don't have to sweat a thing.

[Pikle]

I do like this idea, but I think a few of the issues were brought up were valid ones. I understand we are working on the idea and would like to throw in my 2 cents.

Simplicity is an issue with me also. First off, you need to have witnesses from another guild or unbiased group? Then you need to have a set rotation on the FG's. I'm sure Divinity or whoever will want to try the FG's asap just in case they pull off something. Then there is connection issues. Having a race would be a great idea but this server isn't completely stable (which is understandable since no one is paying shit). So if someone disconnects or maybe the server kicks a bunch of people to login or char select? How would we set these rules up? Who knows, maybe IB has their cleric get kicked and they wipe. That would give advantages to the rest of us time wise, but they would end up arguing that obviously it wasn't their fault...

This also eliminates FG's for lesser guilds who might want to get up a few groups and take them. Let's say in a month or so we have at least 5 guilds that want to attempt the timed trial? That's 40 hours where the FG's are completely camped, considering people will still do this in the off hours. And people will want to practice more. This makes the FG's the most important area in the game.

You also have to set up people to monitor which players go which attempt... To allow people to not use their top DPS consecutively someone else would have to monitor them. Now my guild would be fair for the sake of gaming, but since we are already having all these issues with raiding fairness I could see a few people trying to take advantage of this system.

Just like you guys said, any system can be exploited.

Now I really do like this idea, it does allow for the PVE competitiveness that we all love. And it allows for anyone to attempt if they want. Of course this system does reward better equip. So the already high lvl raiding guilds will have a complete advantage over any up and coming guild. No matter how skillful a group is, if their main tank has 25% less health and their main healer has 25% less mana... they probably won't be able to win a timed trial unless something bad happens to the top guilds.

Now I do think as reasonable people we could figure out a way to make this system work :) Or at least a system that everyone (85% of people) could agree on (you can't make everyone happy, haha).

[Pikle]

Sorry for double posting but i did come up with a few solutions. We could always allow each guild to run another time if they have connection issues (but this comes up with another issues, someone could /q if they weren't making good time just to get another chance)

I do think a good idea is the First place team gets to choose which spawn they want, then the Second place team gets to choose the next and so on. With just classic up though, it kind of eliminates having too may guilds involved and getting spawns, but soon we won't have that issue. Let's keep working on this idea! My guild would actually have a lot of fun with this. I'm willing to be part of a committee that helps out and keeps time or whatever we need to do.

A decent idea for keeping time would let the few unbiased witnesses keep official time and the guild running the gauntlet themselves. If we have 2 witnesses and 1 Group leader keeping time I would assume they could come up with a solid time. The time would only start when everyone in the group and the witnesses are ready to go. A start command would be given and the clock would obviously start then. And would not stop until the last SG falls dead. Also if a witness goes LD it doesn't matter, the time keeps going on. If there are any connection issues, the time isn't paused, it continues normally.

[Zithax]

I like how everything you suggest has a rotation in it.

Well since the GM staff has said any compromise other than their enforced rotation would have to be agreed upon by both IB and Transcendence, something involving a choice rotation is the only option on compromise your guild will even consider, so it's all we have to work with. We have suggested FFA like it has always been on EQLive, but pushover/power hungry people don't like this option.

That said, I like both of hasbinbad's proposed ideas, this one being the more favored.

[Taluvill]

Love all the ideas coming here, and i completely agree with what you said about my post hasbin.

because FG's are on a 24/hour spawn rotation, we would definitely have to go and be killing fg's week one for week 2 or even week 3's rotation. especially when there becomes 3-5 guilds involved.

What about doing a 1 group phinny race as well, from zone in to zone out? He's on a 12 hour timer, might be easy to get multiple guilds through

[Sadad]

Both this and your Champions idea are interesting, but it still ultimately results in a rotation. It might add a little spice to the current situation, but ultimately just makes the rotation more complicated.

This is a tough situation. I recognize that you are trying to hammer out a compromise here, and I respect that. The more we talk about it, it seems we have a few options. Either we have a rotation decided by mini games, we go FFA, or we have a race to mobilize. To me, none of these are at all superior to our current situation.

Anyway, I just wanted to chime in and say that this is a decent idea. In a forum full of hyperbole, I thought your post deserved that.

[Hasbinbad]

Both this and your Champions idea are interesting, but it still ultimately results in a rotation. It might add a little spice to the current situation, but ultimately just makes the rotation more complicated.
I recognize this as truth, and in fact this was the plan.
I personally do not mind doing some legwork as far as figuring out the details of a complex rotation like this.

But I think the main point of both of these propositions was to give the winning guild some form of control over the rotation. This simulates competition for spawns in some small way while at the same time ensuring nobody is left out.

I know the ideas boil down to a rotation, and in a perfect world I wouldn't like either of these solutions. Given how the p1999 staff has limited us, and given the gamebreaking dedication to camp spawns for ludicrous amounts of time that Trans has shown, I don't see any better option.

[Hasbinbad]

In a forum full of hyperbole, I thought your post deserved that.

This is the best compliment anyone has ever paid me on a MMO forum, thanks! :D