The troubles with modern MMO's...

[Dunes]

Okay guys, this is off topic, and dangerously close to being a Rant post (which I try to avoid). However I would be interested in your thoughts on what it is about modern MMO’s that drive old-time MMO’ers like us nuts. Alternately, I would be interested in specific features that you feel make a game great. My hypothesis is that we will have similar likes and dislikes given that we all know/love EQ and for the most part curse modern MMOs.

Ill start, and even if this thread goes nowhere, I think Ill still feel better for shouting out in despair and rage at the current gaming scene (okay… not really, but I am pretty perturbed by it all :o)

Things I dislike about modern MMO’s:

Lack of interesting itemization - What ever happened to wielding a sword or mace that you can identify, by name, by appearance alone? Randomly generated loot with nonsensical stats have dominated MMO’s since vanilla WoW. Rare world drops are great motivators (vanilla WoW got this right), but known “camps” and rare spawns are an excellent motivator to explore and occupy your time. If your willing to commit to something (a camp), you have a shot at getting the item you’ve been dreaming about. Modern MMO’s require you to blitz content repeatedly hoping for “RNG_SWORD_A” with strength on it instead of intelligence…
Item Appearance - Other aspects of itemization is the look of items and armor – when every single player of a certain class at a certain level looks identical, something is wrong. The games guilty of this are too numerous to list (Age of Conan, Elder Scrolls Online, etc etc), but it’s a major sticking point for me. I don’t care about graphics all that much (I'm playing a 15yr old MMO…), but there is a certain pride in the differentiation of a player through unique gear. I don’t mean arbitrary, cosmetic changes in appearance either (all chain looks the same, all cloth looks the same, etc) – each individual item that is equipped needs its own color scheme at the very least!
Multi-classing/Hot-swap “Respec” – Whats happening here? Are we, as a culture, unable to make a decision and commit to it? Do we really need to be able to fundamentally and completely change our class/skills/attributes on the fly on the same character? Trion games are the biggest culprit of this (Rift, ArcheAge, etc), but there are plenty of other examples to varying degrees (WoW, etc). A player should take the time to master a class through the leveling process, so that when you see a max level tank, you know that person has ground through the levels and should know what they are doing. When you can respect from healer, to rogue, to tank in the same afternoon, it’s a sad day for MMO’s.
No Death Penalty – Who cares if you die? Sure it costs some time, and maybe a bit of currency, but there’s no real penalty for being a bad player or not paying attention to detail. Eating a death in EQ is brutal, and its tempered by the availability of %xp res’es. But there’s still a damn good incentive to survive too.
No Grouping – I admit to soloing in EQ once in awhile, but is it my preferred play style? No. Can all classes in EQ solo? No. Players of the majority of classes find themselves LFG because they need to. Forced interaction isn’t necessarily a bad thing either, although it does make quick pick up-and-play harder. Modern MMO’s have made grouping a quest-completing convenience at best, and the majority of the group members don’t even talk to each other
Too Linear – I don’t need hand holding. If I want to be a fool and wander outside of the noobie area at level 2 and get destroyed, that’s my own fault.. but I want that option. That’s how we learn after all, and the fear makes the game more fun too. Modern MMO’s have mostly made it very difficult, if not impossible, to get ahead of yourself. Neverwinter Online is a major culprit in this area – the entire game plays on rails. Every character you “roll up” is going to replay the exact same content at the exact same level. Supposedly its “massively” (from MMO), but if you cant wander and explore (and die), then what kind of RPG is that?


Now, there are a few things that I like about modern MMO’s, but it’s a short list:

Integrated intelligent voice chat – I think DDO was the first one (I could be wrong), but this is a really nice feature that brings a group closer together. No longer is a PUG as random when your talking to everyone, and it eliminates a lot of misunderstandings and hard feelings.
Graphics – Sure, I'm not all about the graphics, but its hard to say they are a bad thing either. Standing on a cliff-side trail and looking out at an ocean and feeling it, in a wide open RPG is a wonderful thing.
Atmospheric Details – People wander around and stay busy in a believable way. Sure, there is a lot of room for improvement (actual AI rather than predetermined pathing and actions), but its fun to hang out in a tavern, talk to your group members and see NPC’s laughing and toasting.
Engaging Boss Encounters – Games have come a long way from “Raid vs Dragon” or “Raid vs Dragon + minion spawns”. The evolving dynamics of an encounter are entertaining, especially with the more fluid your actions are and how many degrees of motion you’ve got (ability to jump to avoid a leg trip, etc).


I know this is a TL;DR for a lot of folks, and I apologize. I think we all secretly hope that the next great game developer will read our comments and take them to heart, but sometimes its worth venting for the sake of venting.

[Bboboo]

The problem with modern MMOs is that they are single player games.

Don't need a wall of text for that.

[iruinedyourday]

my only problem is they are not classic everquest.

[Thulack]

my only problem is they are not classic everquest.

[Rhambuk]

lack of interaction.

hated sitting in orgrimar surrounded by 100+ other players ec style and no one knows anyone theres no chat or banter theres no emotes towards people. everyones just doing their own thing

[myriverse]

There tends to be more unique-looking items in the newer MMOs. Back in the day, most things just looked the same.

[Dunes]

I should add that the game that prompted me to collect my thoughts (per aptly described wall of text above) was ArcheAge. I had high hopes for the game until I read this:

"After reaching level 10, you can combine any three Skillsets to make a unique Class. You can swap Skillsets in and out to change Classes as often as you like, with no predefined path to follow. Experiment and discover Classes to fit any situation, and all with the same character!"

Looking more and more like P99 is one of the last refuges for classic MMORPG gaming goodness. Its sad that the new generation of gamers is so ADHD and flaky that you cant put any real obstacles in front of them without them getting frustrated and cutting off their revenue stream to the game company.

[sox7d]

ITT: every orc hill group conversation ever

[Glenzig]

Too much in game information. This has lead to extreme player laziness and in some cases just outright stupidity. Good example. In Vanguard, you were given an in game map as well as a nice yellow shield above any npc's head who was ready to give out a quest. On top of that, they gave you a wall of text describing exactly what they wanted you to do. There was a tertiary feature just incase you couldn't keep up, they would add a nice little red dot on the map and a red line on your compass to let you know where to go.

There were certain quests in the game that gave only a very vague explanation, or a little bit of a riddle as to what to do next. Most of those quests didn't have the poi dot on the map. You should have read all of the complaints about how broken and impossible to complete those quests were. "I spent AN HOUR last night looking for that ground clickie!!! Please fix this quest!!"

They were always my favorite quests to do and to find. Most people just can't put that much thought into something I guess.

[Swish]

lack of interaction.

hated sitting in orgrimar surrounded by 100+ other players ec style and no one knows anyone theres no chat or banter theres no emotes towards people. everyones just doing their own thing

During the classic WoW there was plenty of chat in Orgrimmar on my server, maybe you Americans were too immersed in ez pixels to think about interacting with others :p

[Rhambuk]

Ha this was late wotlk and beyond, with the group/raid finder. there was no need to talk you could go through 5-6 dungeons and people wouldn't say a word

[iruinedyourday]

I always thought WoW had too much art. Like in EQ usually any seemingly unique content was something important. A named mob? Special. A cave? A dungeon(tbh once Kunark launched even in EQ, I felt they started to break this particular rule). In wow, everything had a name, nothing seemed to matter.

Anytime I went someplace cool, it was just as important as a flat open single poly in EQ.

So nothing really seemed to matter to me.

In eq, everything you do matters.

Walking into Mistmoore, was mind blowing. The difference between that special dungeon zone and the zones that you explore before hand is extreme. In wow the level 1 trash mobs are in as equally detailed and cool looking zones as the high end dungeons, so the reward to explore & progress was moot to me.

[sox7d]

Ha this was late wotlk and beyond, with the group/raid finder. there was no need to talk you could go through 5-6 dungeons and people wouldn't say a word

You don't even NEED the other people in 5-man leveling instances.

I did 1-80 with my girlfriend, me prot war, she was a healing monk. Every instance I just ran through doing thunderclap/vengeance and keeping agro while she followed and healed. Vengeance just killed everything single-handedly and my hit points never went below 70% with 1/4th of the zone beating on me at a time. It was a joke. The game stopped being "can we defeat this dungeon" and just turned into "how fast can we get this instance down?"

Got that first viking one from WotLK down to 8 minutes.

[Clark]

my only problem is they are not classic everquest.

:D

[sox7d]

Meanwhile on Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2ayzo0/new_wow_legendary_for_the_old_school_players/

Barf.

[Swish]

Meanwhile on Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2ayzo0/new_wow_legendary_for_the_old_school_players/

Barf.

http://i.imgur.com/IEZd7Hf.png


-50 dkp

DID U C WUT DEY DID DER? http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/4d.gif

[hillgiantchamp]

Eq feels more natural and not like your in a video game. I like the feel of naturally wondering mobs running through forests or open fields. Most modern MMOs have the same mobs in little groups everywhere that all have HP bars and names above their head, saying its level. It just doesn't feel as natural as eq can be. I like the mystery of not knowing what level the mob is or exactly its hit points unless targeted etc. Makes it more of a challenge and the mob your fighting doesn't look like a cartoon with damage numbers coming off its head and health bars everywhere just making everything feel like a video game and not a natural surrounding. I do agree a game that is more challenging and forces you to ask questions or seek help from others is much more fun them a game that walks you through one story line and holding your hand the whole way.

[hillgiantchamp]

Not having a map is great to. Makes you learn your surroundings and really feel a sense of attachment to the world your playing in. makes game play feel more realistic and natural. Not spending a majority of your time mindlessly following dots and arrows on a map not actual looking at the content your travelling on. Classic eqers had to find landmarks etc to get around and therefore be more immersed into the RPG

[Sirken]

My hypothesis is that we will have similar likes and dislikes given that we all know/love EQ and for the most part curse modern MMOs.

Secrets and I started a pretty good discussion on this topic monday night, but as usual, we got distracted (link- http://youtu.be/8FlvNheQ0Ew)

the only thing id disagree with is the in game voice chat. a lot of the time its xbox live community types, especially if i had to deal with nerds from PUGs. for guilds sure it would be nice. but other than that, i dont need my grinding immersion ruined by highpitched mouthbreathing neckbeards that weren't hugged enough as a child.

then again, maybe im just jaded.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

The problem with modern MMOs is that they are single player games.


^^^

I played SWTOR when it came out. I've seen the horror.

[Clark]

Secrets and I started a pretty good discussion on this topic monday night, but as usual, we got distracted (link- http://youtu.be/8FlvNheQ0Ew)

the only thing id disagree with is the in game voice chat. a lot of the time its xbox live community types, especially if i had to deal with nerds from PUGs. for guilds sure it would be nice. but other than that, i dont need my grinding immersion ruined by highpitched mouthbreathing neckbeards that weren't hugged enough as a child.

then again, maybe im just jaded.

Agreed.

[Xer0]

TL

Im going to have to disagree with the itemization; There are very few uniquely modeled items in EQ and those are usually very specifically geared to a particular class, or only usable by a select few.

Mind you when I refer to moden MMO's I very specifically have WoW in mind; Not present day, but vanilla.

The itemization on WoW was awesome, eq (at least classic) has an extremely limited item pool, if you're making a character there are only about 3 or 4 pieces per slot but budget range-- because face it if you can't scrape together 10k what does it matter how sweet that sword looks?

Not only were the weapon models far more diversified, but the stat arrangements were also far more varied; I like the model of giving A standard item and having a "dice roll" determine at random what stats will pop up on it when looted. Specifically regarding this, I remember after Gates of Discord came out I was rolling some sort of wisdom class and I found myself searching the bazaar for affordable and usable items, and I came up with a lot of the same stuff that I was using on my druid-- very first live toon during Velious. That to me is just off.

I also liked the animations in Wow-- watching my undead rogue reach up and parry+ riposte, rather thanw atching for text was nice.

probably get flamed to hell for this, but WoW, in it's early years, did a LOT of things right.

[Daywolf]

I know this is a TL;DR for a lot of folks, and I apologize. I think we all secretly hope that the next great game developer will read our comments and take them to heart, but sometimes its worth venting for the sake of venting.Actually I was scanning for the actual reason, I would say that those are but only results.

For your likes, I don't think graphics really matter, but maybe you are unaware of the use of graphics style in modern mmo's which is linked to the actual reason.

Here is what's been going on, psychologists told publishers/investors how to make a compulsive game that makes LOTS of money and the publishers tell the devs how to make the game.

Where does that LOTS of money come from if every freakin modern mmo is now f2p? Well from a very narrow few, targeted ages 18-25 years old (no less for legal reasons... but their money is welcomed too), that are categorized as gullible to the point of not being able to control their bank accounts.

To attract the 18-25yo crowd to find the "whale" (they call them whales) amongst them, they typically design the art style of the game to be "cartoony".

Once they get them in, it becomes a balance of a "skill game" vs a "cash game". Usually starting out as a skill game, where you are not very compelled to spend cash yet. But once the whale is hooked, they start spending $1000's into the cash game to continue progressing at an enjoyable rate or access special things to make them feel good for the moment, and even to take them away again if not maintained with their cash flow (a classic trap).

There are many-many tricks to do this, such as progression gates, token layers, antes and many other tricks to catch the whale and empty their bank accounts. Some of these tricks they learned from animal experiments, others through studying well known cons from the annals of psychology.

Games stopped being designed purely as the skill-game, fun for the many is not the target at all any longer. The target is the few that spend LOTS of money, the underdeveloped compulsive spenders, those are the people that the games are designed for.

[Ahldagor]

Secrets and I started a pretty good discussion on this topic monday night, but as usual, we got distracted (link- http://youtu.be/8FlvNheQ0Ew)

the only thing id disagree with is the in game voice chat. a lot of the time its xbox live community types, especially if i had to deal with nerds from PUGs. for guilds sure it would be nice. but other than that, i dont need my grinding immersion ruined by highpitched mouthbreathing neckbeards that weren't hugged enough as a child.

then again, maybe im just jaded.

console babies are what ruined gaming

[Dunes]

Mind you when I refer to moden MMO's I very specifically have WoW in mind; Not present day, but vanilla.


I agree! I mentioned somewhere in the wall the vanilla WoW was okay (actually, it was pretty good once you get past the over-the-topness of it all). Pretty much everything following Vanilla WoW is where things unraveled. Keep in mind that vanilla WoW was released just 5 years after EQ did (2004ish). It still tried to tread the line between mass-market appeal and catering to people like us.

Regarding models, yes, EQ had very limited models for weapons and armor. But you still had red plate, black plate, grey plate, etc etc. You can look at a player and generally have a decent idea of what they are wearing. The newest MMO's (those made in the last decade), with some exceptions for end-game content, have chain model, plate model, leather model, etc with very limited changes in appearance as you level.

Anyway, EQ is by no means perfect (blasphemy!), but there is something about the struggle, the grind, the companionship, and the loss that makes classic EQ far superior to any of the modern MMOs.

[tanknspank]

Agreed on your dislikes.

On grouping, I do think it should be the preferred mode of the game, though I think some minimal soloing should be possible for all classes. (If we speak in EQ terms, maybe bind would being stronger for mid level melees)

Some other things I'd add to dislikes is:

Lack of Freedom - EQ gives you the freedom to use the tools you have in all kinds of crazy ways. Want to switch your spells "in combat"? If you can get the mob off your back for a few seconds, you can. Want to start casting something then someone else lands invisibility on you? You can. Want to equip an item from Sebilis on your level 1 alt, you can. Want to start a high level quest at level 1? You (mostly) can.

This freedom of using the tools the game gives you generated so many interesting tactics. Combined with the slower pace, a lot of times it makes it possible to salvage a defeat into a victory. Those are the memorable, exciting fights. Not doing the same dance over and over until everyone gets it right with little chance to recover from mistakes / bad luck.


Balance - Dislike balance, what? Yes. Balance is good when it's in the sense of "every class has a reason to be played". Nowadays it's become "every healer must heal equally", "every DPS must DPS equally", "every class must have the same CC/interrupts/debuffs". It kills uniqueness and makes the tools bland.

Does a part of me want my druid to be more group desired? Sure. But I LOVE the fact that it has a different toolset than my cleric or my SK, and the reduced group desirability is made up by flexibility and solo ability.


Quests - There's so much I dislike about quests I could write an entire post just on them. Let's set aside the quest hubs / tracks though. On a more basic level I dislike the non-repeatability of quests. I dislike that quest items are just quest items and only drop when you have the quest active. I dislike the volume of them, which in turns make them bland and unmemorable. I dislike the fact that if you're 0.1 level below a set number you can't start a quest even if you're playing with friends who are on it. I dislike the fact that every quest has to give rewards for every class (not always, but a lot of the times you get a choice of cloth/plate/chain).

Integrated intelligent voice chat
I disagree with the integrated part. I've never seen an integrated voice comm that is as good as a separate client, or even decent. Personally I'd like to see gaming companies team up with TS / Vent / whatever and link the external voice client into the game. For example make it so you can set a server/room link in your group's properties and make it possible for members to launch/join using a single click from in game. Once joined make it so the game displays members / active speaker in a window from the associated voice client.

Graphics
I think a lot of newer MMOs go overboard with graphics. Some abstraction and cartooniness is good. Good, smooth models and some effects are OK, but don't go overboard with detail to the point of making my eyes bleed. In this same category keep the spell effects simple and distinctive. I love how in EQ I can visually see the enchanter mez or the druid snare. In most other MMOs it's all a mess of particles even just from 5 people.

Engaging Boss Encounters
To a point, but I think scripting encounters is being overdone. Everything has become a dance that has to be done in specific ways with specific amounts of dps/HP/healing.

[indiscriminate_hater]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/568/346/274.jpg

[fahlen]

Its sad that EQ is so far away from what would be remotely considered acceptable to the MMO community these days, that I'm just hoping for a game to even compare to vanilla WoW. Sure, it had a ton of flaws. But so did EQ. A lot of those "flaws" keep us logging in day to day.

[iruinedyourday]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/568/346/274.jpg

holly shit that is amazing.

[fastboy21]

beware korean mmos...there is something seriously messed up with korean gamers that truly frightens me.

[Mblake81]

my only problem is they are not classic everquest.

Verses of Victory (http://wiki.project1999.com/Verses_of_Victory)

[Byrjun]

Im going to have to disagree with the itemization; There are very few uniquely modeled items in EQ and those are usually very specifically geared to a particular class, or only usable by a select few.

I disagree with your disagreement.

Somehow, EverQuest made items more recognizable than any other MMO even with extremely limited resources.

How many armor sets can you recognize with just one plate texture? Crafted, Indicolite, Cobalt, Singing Steel, Lambent, Totemic, Jaundiced Bone, Ethereal Mist, Rubicite, Valorium, Mrylokar's, Woven Shadow, Ro, Cleric Sol Ro, Thorny Vine, Blood Ember, and a few dozen more. And that's not counting all the highly recognizable single pieces like Mithril. You can usually even figure stuff out if it's undyed. Leather pants on a priest class are probably Gatorscale, plain chain chest is usually a fungi depending on class and the rest of their gear, etc.

I often compare EQ to DAoC since it came out a couple years after EQ, and marks the point where a lot of things started going wrong with MMOs (even though I still love DAoC).

DAoC had some really beautiful armor textures for the era (2001):

http://i.imgur.com/c0UplEw.jpg http://i.imgur.com/pHkktL1.jpg http://i.imgur.com/wpZJ0ki.jpg

But could you recognize what any of that stuff was? Nope. Only if it was class specific:

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110606165806/camelotherald/images/9/95/Warrior.jpg

That guy's a Warrior. The problem with this class specific "epic" armor was even though it looked amazing, it was inferior to high end crafted sets, which you needed if you wanted to max your stats for pvp. And the crafted sets all had the "generic" textures like the ones above. Plus you could dye anything any color.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I disagree with your disagreement.

Somehow, EverQuest made items more recognizable than any other MMO even with extremely limited resources.

How many armor sets can you recognize with just one plate texture? Crafted, Indicolite, Cobalt, Singing Steel, Lambent, Totemic, Jaundiced Bone, Ethereal Mist, Rubicite, Valorium, Mrylokar's, Woven Shadow, Ro, Cleric Sol Ro, Thorny Vine, Blood Ember, and a few dozen more. And that's not counting all the highly recognizable single pieces like Mithril. You can usually even figure stuff out if it's undyed. Leather pants on a priest class are probably Gatorscale, plain chain chest is usually a fungi depending on class and the rest of their gear, etc.

Except all of these used EXACTLY the same texture only in different color. Warriors Crafted and Warriors Indicolite use exactly the same texture only in different color. Bronze and Fine Steel was also exactly same texture. Until Velious special textures, there were only 3 sets of textures per race. The only reason these sets were recognizable is because there were so few of them. If you saw a Light Blue Plate - you new that only 1 set in game is a plate of this color. But this situation only lasted until more sets started to appear, and armor coloring.

WoW by contrast had dozens of different of textures right of the start, which is now up to a hundred. WoW does use different approach - the texture looks the same for all races, rather than race specific like in EQ, but at the same time total number of textures far greater.

Same goes for famous weapons - they were only famous when there were too few of them. No one will needs/wants SSOY when Velious is out (I doubt anyone uses it now in the proper level range). After 2-3 expansions there is going to be so many unique items around you won't ever remember them all.

And as far as WoW "random" green items go - they are basically WoW version of bronze and fine steel you had in EQ, which during early days some people still used all way up to the dragon raids. During WoW early days there too were famous items (Sulfuros anyone?), but 3 expansions down the road they were forgotten cause they became obsolete, just like EQ epics will get first matched with Velious and then obsolete with Luclin. Its natural. The game HAS TO progress. If there is no progression it will die.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I always thought WoW had too much art. Like in EQ usually any seemingly unique content was something important. A named mob? Special. A cave? A dungeon(tbh once Kunark launched even in EQ, I felt they started to break this particular rule). In wow, everything had a name, nothing seemed to matter.

Anytime I went someplace cool, it was just as important as a flat open single poly in EQ.

So nothing really seemed to matter to me..

This is the most ridiculous complain about WoW I ever heard. So the game sucked cause zones were not blunt square boxes with no land features what so ever like West Karana? There are thousands named npcs in EQ which do absolutely nothing. Every guard in every city is named, instead of being just "a guard" even though there is no quest attached to him and he doesn't even respond to hails. And in WoW this is a reason for complain? WoW has shit load more uniqueness in this regard than EQ ever did.

[Dunes]

WoW has shit load more uniqueness in this regard than EQ ever did.

I think most people would agree that WoW (Vanilla WoW) was a good game. Sure, I tend to agree that the oversaturated color palette and over-the-top armor/weapon models and textures were geared to appeal to a younger audience and gain mass market appeal. I also admit to having enjoyed playing through Vanilla WoW, and discovering all the hidden flourishes the developers hid away in the game.

My primary complaint with WoW was that you knew exactly where you were going next after you finished up a hub (the fact that you could even "finish" an area was another problem). Done with Elwynn Forest? Move to Westfall. Done there? Move to Duskwood. Once done there, move to Redridge. Etc etc. The fact that you could solo through all of the content using quest hubs was my other complaint. It played a little too much like a single player game, although admittedly, its one I would have bought and played if it were a single player game :confused:

Anyway, the original intent of this thread was not to debate the merits of WoW vs EQ. It was meant to look at the evolution of MMO's after vanilla WoW and try to understand why so many of us keep coming back to EQ after 15 years :D

[pogs4ever]

So the game sucked cause zones were not blunt square boxes with no land features what so ever like West Karana?

actually, the Karanas are one of the reasons I love EQ so much; while people who actually enjoy those zones is a minority. It makes the world seem realistic and vast in that it should mostly be empty space; and the first trip across antonica is one that most of us remember. It made finding the ogre shaman camp actually feel like you found something and want to tell your friends, and go check out. Theme park style of new mmo's killed this feeling for me.

other than that, risk/reward/thinking outside the box/rate of progress is why i like eq>everything else.

also, i loved playing original EQ when like everlore was the place to get info, and it was half false (i really used to believe in the lake rathe monster) and therefore you had to just figure it out yourself, nowadays there is a guide for everything.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I think most people would agree that WoW (Vanilla WoW) was a good game. Sure, I tend to agree that the oversaturated color palette and over-the-top armor/weapon models and textures were geared to appeal to a younger audience and gain mass market appeal. I also admit to having enjoyed playing through Vanilla WoW, and discovering all the hidden flourishes the developers hid away in the game.

My primary complaint with WoW was that you knew exactly where you were going next after you finished up a hub (the fact that you could even "finish" an area was another problem). Done with Elwynn Forest? Move to Westfall. Done there? Move to Duskwood. Once done there, move to Redridge. Etc etc. The fact that you could solo through all of the content using quest hubs was my other complaint. It played a little too much like a single player game, although admittedly, its one I would have bought and played if it were a single player game :confused:

Anyway, the original intent of this thread was not to debate the merits of WoW vs EQ. It was meant to look at the evolution of MMO's after vanilla WoW and try to understand why so many of us keep coming back to EQ after 15 years :D

Well WoW graphical style is a taste thing (not the biggest fan but I love Blood Elves), but overall - gameplay is more important. Out of all the games I saw, I still claim Luclin models as #1 favorites (for most races). As far as WoW solo everything - that was the designers original intent - game supports all modes - solo, group and raid. And I actually like this approach. How many people in EQ DESPERATELY tried and still trying to solo despite the fact that game is not designed this way (and some clases clearly OP in this regard over others)? Nothing wrong with WoW offering you 3 types of gameplay to choose from. This is freedom. If I have 4 hours of free time to burn - I do raids, if Only have 30 min, I will run a small solo quest. works great for my limited time.

As far as quest guiding goes- well yeah having quest goal clearly marked on your map kind of ridiculous, and defeats the point of actually searching for the quest. But giving players general suggestion - you should go to zone X next cause it suits your level range is fine, cause otherwise players will do what they do in EQ - they go to alla or to the forums and start asking where is the best place to XP at lev X. Same crap.

[indiscriminate_hater]

actually, the Karanas are one of the reasons I love EQ so much; while people who actually enjoy those zones is a minority. It makes the world seem realistic and vast in that it should mostly be empty space; and the first trip across antonica is one that most of us remember

my fondest memory of classic was running my troll SK (first and only toon) to south karana. wading through the swamp, trudging through feerrott jungle, climbing over rathe mountains, swimming through lake rathe, and bolting across the plains to arrive at a gigantic tree house filled with human-sized birdmen.

fucking beautiful.

[phacemeltar]

I think most people would agree that WoW (Vanilla WoW) was a good game.

no pet weapons = shit
no class specific armor at lower levels = shit
so much underdeveloped area = shit
total ripoff of the best selling mmo at the time = shitty move


wow.. i just dont get why people say its so good (although the pvp system was pretty cool at some points) i remember thinking they were going to add actual content to the game-world during xpac, and being disappointed when they only added a new island + a few mobs and called it a day.

[tanknspank]

How many armor sets can you recognize with just one plate texture? Crafted, Indicolite, Cobalt, Singing Steel, Lambent, Totemic, Jaundiced Bone, Ethereal Mist, Rubicite, Valorium, Mrylokar's, Woven Shadow, Ro, Cleric Sol Ro, Thorny Vine, Blood Ember, and a few dozen more.
I love things being this recognizable. And that there's not an overwhelming number of them so you can actually know most items. It makes them stand out more than if there's 10 similar variations of gear for X class/slot.

Early WoW had this in some limited fashion. There's some weapons/shields and a few armor pieces that stood out and those were awesome, but a lot of the rest was very forgettable. And I'm not just talking about random greens. So many blues, or even purples, look the same as those random greens, or have differences small enough that they don't stand out.

Except all of these used EXACTLY the same texture only in different color.
Limited texture area was a limitation of 1999. When EQ was developed they had to be very restricted in how much texture they used for global things (like PC gear/models/pets) as these had to be loaded in all zones. WoW came about 5.5 years later which (especially at that time) meant massive improvements in both software techniques and hardware.

I'm not saying EQ shouldn't have more textures, particularly as expansions go on, but if they are sparingly used and with unique colors, that would help items stay recognizable.

WoW by contrast had dozens of different of textures right of the start, which is now up to a hundred. WoW does use different approach - the texture looks the same for all races, rather than race specific like in EQ, but at the same time total number of textures far greater.

Same goes for famous weapons - they were only famous when there were too few of them.

I think WoW wasted too many texures/models on greens and at the same time had too many generic blue+ items. With fewer blue+ items and making the greens look the same and more bland it would have made the blue+ items more recognizable.

I feel fewer, more famous items makes for more interesting itemization than a wide variety of forgettable ones. I remember replacing my combine weapon with a SSoY on my warrior, or later getting a Primal then a BoC on my warrior. I remember progressing from Gossamer Robe to FBR to Oracle to Cryosilk on my wizard. I remember my epics, and Shissar bane, my first FBSS, GEBs, brown chitin protector, my Ifir, and a dozen other memorable gear changes.

I played a lot of WoW. In fact I've played WoW for more years (and more /played hours) than I did EQ. And yet I have far fewer memories of the gear I've used there, most of it blending into a forgettable stream of slight upgrades.

My primary complaint with WoW was that you knew exactly where you were going next after you finished up a hub (the fact that you could even "finish" an area was another problem).
This has been my main problem with WoW and pretty much every MMO since. EQ had the freedom to be unexpected. The lack of instancing means everyone else indirectly adds change to your play session. What camps are open, what your group comp will be, etc. The camp model in a way makes each camp be its own mini dungeon with its own quirks, dangers, items. In Guk alone I could play 6 nights in a row and be in a different camp. Then there's Unrest and HHP, just off the top of my head.

In WoW at a given level range I was always on one of 2-3 paths and repeatedly doing the same 2-3 dungeons that consisted of the same rooms, in the same order, with the same bosses that we fought exactly once per run. And because questing was so superior to grinding mobs it was always more beneficial to follow the tracks than just roam, exploring and finding interesting little camps to do. Everything was always ordered too. There was no braving the dangers of a trip from FP to Lake Rathe for the Gnoll camp, or to Unrest across DC.

As far as WoW solo everything - that was the designers original intent - game supports all modes - solo, group and raid.
I wouldn't have a problem with that. I do think all play modes should be viable. The problem was that unless you did dungeons, grouping was counterproductive.

All the limitations it set (quest level, quest sequence, no quest items dropping unless you are on the quest) added a lot of overhead to playing with others outside dungeons to the point that you were better off soloing. If you ran into someone, odds were you were on different stages of the quest chain and one of you had to help the other catch up if you wanted to meaningfully group. If your partner had to AFK for a bit you couldn't just keep loot a few extra quest items and hand them to them when they got back. If your partner was 1 level lower you could end up getting a quest they couldn't yet.

I do think an ideal MMO supports all playstyles, but the rewards from raids/group should be commensurate with the overhead in people wrangling they take. For raids this is never an issue because they typically take place at max level (xp being meaningless) and are typically the source of BiS gear. Grouping however is an activity that needs to happen side-by-side with soloing both at max level and on the way there. And you can't just say "ok, grouping will give good gear, soloing will give good XP" because then both styles of players will feel forced into having to do the thing they don't favor (due to time, likes or whatever).

you should go to zone X next cause it suits your level range is fine, cause otherwise players will do what they do in EQ - they go to alla or to the forums and start asking where is the best place to XP at lev X. Same crap.
More info like that is fine. EQ however has self-correcting mechanisms for that - lack of instancing / relatively slow respawn / group composition. Zone X might be the best XP in a level range, but if it's over-camped you'll actually get better XP in a non-best zone with plentiful mobs to kill. Or that best XP might require having CC or harmony, and your group doesn't so you find a place that yields better XP due to less risk/problems in handling the camp with the classes you have.

my fondest memory of classic was running my troll SK (first and only toon) to south karana. wading through the swamp, trudging through feerrott jungle, climbing over rathe mountains, swimming through lake rathe, and bolting across the plains to arrive at a gigantic tree house filled with human-sized birdmen.

fucking beautiful.
I have a couple like that. The first time I was ~5 in ECom (which was super-crowded as it was a new server) and one of our group members led us to Misty Thicket. Another one was (a different character/server) a group member telling us about the gnolls in Lake Rathe and us undertaking the journey there for the loots (staff and skull!) and uncrowded XP. Then from there we eventually moved on to KFC as well.

[Whirled]

I know some people that play vanilla WoW also. They constantly try to get me to play & I'm trying to tell them I barely have time to log into this game. Some games lose their luster quickly while others just leave that nugget of fun in the back of your heart/mind where u want the next quest step, that next level...another pixel...

[August]

Well, rambling responses inc:

1) Death penalty. The death penalty in EQ sucks. It's such a harsh penalty that the actual cause of the penalty needed to be rare. This meant that encounters had to be approached with a lot more caution - and that they couldn't be *too* hard. For progressive raiding, this is a bit of a problem. I probably wiped 250+ times to Ragnaros before our guild got him down. If that had been EQ, Ragnaros would have had to have been much less difficult - you can't CR that many times when you have to rez. And in reality, it's just a substitute - step. If you're raiding in EQ, you probably have the zone cleared. You probably have clerics nearby with click sticks. The reality is that it's just extra time you have to take to try again. Rezzing with a penalty (which is also a money siphon - brilliant) with your gear makes the game let you spend more time in enjoyable activities (actually playing) than sitting around. Unpopular opinion of mine for sure - don't get me wrong - I LOVE the death penalty in most aspects of classic EQ, but it just doesn't really fly with progressive raiding (at least in classic era when only one class had rez).

2) Itemization. WoW had way more itemization than EQ did, and had more textures than EQ did. You all just know all the items in classic EQ because there's *so few of them*. Concerning unique graphics - in vanilla wow I can think of a TON of items that had their own special graphic.

3) Class homogenization - probably my biggest pet peeve. They did this so you don't have to spend more time 'leveling' replicate characters as well as keeping you more interested in the focus of the game: The end game. EQ to me was about the journey up. WoW was about what you did once you got there. To that end...

4) Leveling - Dungeon Finder facilitated getting to the end game quicker - period. In a game where leveilng isn't important, are we that surprised that they made it even easier / anonymous.

5) Instancing - Face it guys, EQ would have been instance if made today. You can only put so much static content mobs into a world for a given population. We already see this in p1999 - rotations, forced respawns, this is all because we don't have instancing. No instances is great for the 'i want everything and nobody else should get it' attitude, but if you want to appeal to a common userbase, you need to make the content you spend millions developing available to anyone. There's nothing wrong with a few static mobs (like they did in Vanilla WoW) - but the world has to be a LOT bigger, or there has to be limited population, to do away with instances all together.

6) Auction house / Bazaar - Again, it's all about instancing. When resources are very plentiful and you have a huge economy with 50k+ on a server, shouting in a zone just doesn't work. I love the charm of a tunnel, but in any modern MMO with large playerbases, it's not going to cut it.


I know I used WoW a lot, but that's the game that ultimately pulled me away from EQLive. I was in PoT when FoH left Veeshan for good. I was the recipient of a LOT of stuff from people leaving as they 'were never coming back'. A lot of the things that EQ had trouble with, WoW corrected up front. It was a very good game originally - no class homogenization, dungeons were not in a dungeon finder, gear was well stratified and there were plenty of 'epic' quests that rewarded unique loot (including your class-sets 0.5, 1, 2, 3). Hell, it wasn't even really outlined how to get to max level at first (I grinded 52-60 in felstone field, what what).

[Swish]

http://memecrunch.com/meme/4BS1H/p99/image.jpg?w=679&c=1

[Daywolf]

http://memecrunch.com/meme/4BS1H/p99/image.jpg?w=679&c=1
Yeah that's what I'm taklin about. They don't want people like me. I even got banned from mmorpg doh com (years ago) for kindly explaining what a scam most of it is now (they get ad revenue from f2p's obviously). But I don't usually mention it so much any longer, I mean if you are that stupid (not directed at you) than you prolly deserve it :rolleyes:
hmm linky... http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130626/194933/The_Top_F2P_Monetization_Tricks.php

[Ifaerl]

One of the things I hate the most about modern MMO's is generally the community.

I feel this is the result of how quick and easy it is to level a new toon, the ability to rename your characters, and the ability to transfer servers. There is no motivation for people to treat other players with respect. Everybody turns into a bad troll, robs guild banks, etc. because they know that whatever they do has no way to stick to them. When you put time into your character on a game like classic EQ, you are also building your reputation. People remember when you treat them nicely and with respect.

[Whirled]

One of the things I hate the most about modern MMO's is generally the community........... People remember when you treat them nicely and with respect.

[Lagaidh]

Ha this was late wotlk and beyond, with the group/raid finder. there was no need to talk you could go through 5-6 dungeons and people wouldn't say a word

Yep. Earlier on there was some community on the Khaz Modan server. I think I played from `06ish to 2010. I remember running "instances" and nobody would really speak, unless it was to go apeshit on the person that hadn't run the instance 1000 times yet and didn't have it down perfectly.

It was the time to exit. Thank Brell P99 was there.

[Lagaidh]

probably get flamed to hell for this, but WoW, in it's early years, did a LOT of things right.

Nah. No flaming I bet.

It was painfully clear to genre fans, and any programmer paying attention that a large chunk of the original feature set in WoW was a direct result of player complaints in EverQuest. Lower down time, the ability to accomplish something worthwhile in a moderate play session, easier interface for player crafting and piles of more nits.

I remember responding to that positively when I got to play one of the beta rounds (was it 2004?), however, I found the game to easy...

I believe there's a terribly fine balance between a sense of accomplishment and raw frustration that MMOs have to try and reach. The trend has been to less frustration, and players like P99ers miss the sense of accomplishment. Classic EQ (imo) erred a tad on the side of frustration, but it was a slight enough dose that one tries again and the eventual triumph is all the sweeter.

Neat shit to remember for sure.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Nah. No flaming I bet.

It was painfully clear to genre fans, and any programmer paying attention that a large chunk of the original feature set in WoW was a direct result of player complaints in EverQuest. Lower down time, the ability to accomplish something worthwhile in a moderate play session, easier interface for player crafting and piles of more nits.


A dozen of WoW early devs played EQ, so yeah a lot of early WoW was borrowed from late EQ. Specially looking back at what they changed over the years, they use to have lots of little things that today clearly indicate early EQ influence - its of those - you must have this little reagent to cast this low lev spell, even though the reagents is so trivial to acquire you really don't need other than to piss player off when during his 3456789th time using the spell he forgot to restock. It wasn't as much as challenging, but rather tedious.

For example having a soul shard to cast Voidwalker was retarded, cause at some point every warlock had a soulshard bag which had 24 shards in it, and even if you had none, getting a soulshard was so easy from any green mob- it was hardly a needed requirement. So they removed it which was smart.

On other hand, I miss the need to quest for the Voidwalker and other pets - I felt it was the integral part of leveling up as warlock - it felt as accomplishment.

Over the years WoW had moved away from many EQ-like features, and set up their own trend. Not all of it was good, but their recent changes to Talent system are definitely good move, and it should see more improvement with the next expansion.

Some parts of the game did got a lot easier than they should be. I feel that overall the difficulty of the solo progression is fine, if only you wouldn't be getting this much XP for the quests. For example your newbie zone runs lev 1-10 - by the time you complete all the quests - you are lev 12. The next zone runs 11-20, but you finish it already being lev 24 - so when you enter next tier - you are facing mobs that are already green, which greatly reduces the challenge and therefore enjoyment of progression. I know that Blizz keeps lowering XP curve to help newcomers level up and catch up faster, but kills all the things they done before.
I would feel really comfortable if XP was cut in half so mobs always sit just a bit above me in level. Group instancing also got a lot easier - you hardly ever need full group to do level appropriate instances - At lev 20 I can solo the Chasm and most of Deadmines with most classes (easily with Hunter or Paladin, and more challenging but doable with warlock or shaman). At most it only takes 3 chars to do most group content of appropriate level, as long as it includes tank and a healer. I really wish that group content was harder, and raids would be at least at 2-4 groups.

But oh well.
I have been working on my own server for a while (more of planning that actually coding) with a goal to be somewhere between classical EQ ideals and modern WoW realities. Hopefully something will come out of it one day.

[Lagaidh]

I enjoyed Burning Crusade and a majority of Lich King, but as said upthread, attitudes really changed with the instance tools. I was still in a guild for raiding. I don't know if there was or became a way to do pick up raids with a UI tool as there was for dungeon instances.

I did pop back in for Cataclysm, but my class had been changed and played like other classes I didn't care to play. At that point, I found this.

[hillgiantchamp]

I never played wow because I didn't have time and was always commited to eq since its be finning and then quit playing game until I found this server. After reading this thread it makes me want to try it. Would be cool if there was a classic wow server so I could get the full experience.

[Kika Maslyaka]

you can download WoW trial just to take a look around - its free to play up to lev 20, after which you won't get XP, but you can go anywhere, explore and try taking on mobs above your level, or try to solo group dungeons. You will be able to do quests up to lev 23.

[August]

I enjoyed Burning Crusade and a majority of Lich King, but as said upthread, attitudes really changed with the instance tools. I was still in a guild for raiding. I don't know if there was or became a way to do pick up raids with a UI tool as there was for dungeon instances.

I did pop back in for Cataclysm, but my class had been changed and played like other classes I didn't care to play. At that point, I found this.

There was the raid finder.

To paint the picture, you basically got queued into a raid (that also had 10, 25-man, heroic versions, and i believe there's now 'extreme'?) that was basically heroic-level tank and spank. Most mobs instead of 3-6 abilities had 1 or 2.

What's more, if your raid wiped, the whole raid got buffed by like 5% stats or something, so eventually everyone was so OP you could clear the mobs.

I popped back during MoP launch to this travesty, and quit promptly after running my first 'LFR'

[Whirled]

Is there a forum rule against linking the vanilla wow page here or should that be done in a PM?

[Kika Maslyaka]

none that I know off. But I bet that vanilla WoW emu is also a PvP server...

[Whirled]

none that I know off. But I bet that vanilla WoW emu is also a PvP server...

Yisss one is flagged PVP but you can probably gain most lvls without seeing too much if you stick to uncontested areas

[Destron]

I heard that wow emu was scamming people...stealing CC's or someshit.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I heard that wow emu was scamming people...stealing CC's or someshit.

ummm if its free to play, whats there to scam? except possibly email

[kruptcy]

ummm if its free to play, whats there to scam? except possibly email

Lots of people reuse PWs, if someone signs up with their email address and they create a pw there is a fair chance that is their pw for their email itself or paypal or at least other game accounts.

Not saying they are doing this, it's just a risk.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Lots of people reuse PWs, if someone signs up with their email address and they create a pw there is a fair chance that is their pw for their email itself or paypal or at least other game accounts.

Not saying they are doing this, it's just a risk.

just make a dummy email on google and use that. And yeah don't reuse passwords for anything important.