Why I don't like to group

[Troy]

Spent 7 hours playing today and gained 1 yellow total, half of which I gained solo before I found any groups. Dungeons = too dangerous to bother with unless you know your group members and the dungeon very well.

[Anaiyah]

Spent 7 hours playing today and gained 1 yellow total, half of which I gained solo before I found any groups. Dungeons = too dangerous to bother with unless you know your group members and the dungeon very well.

I agree completely.

At this rate this server is going to turn into even more of a clusterfrak of solo classes. I myself am utterly guilty of soloing my way to 50 because group xp is NEVER even comparable. Even in a great group chain pulling a decent solo camp will gain far more xp. Makes no sense.

[fugazi]

I agree completely.

At this rate this server is going to turn into even more of a clusterfrak of solo classes. I myself am utterly guilty of soloing my way to 50 because group xp is NEVER even comparable. Even in a great group chain pulling a decent solo camp will gain far more xp. Makes no sense.

As much as I hate to agree with you on this, you're right. I can't say I've leveled one character very high yet, but grouping past 2 seems like a waste most of the time. The amount of kills needed to get the same xp when soloing or duoing just seems impossible most of the time. There just ain't a lot of mobs around in most places or otherwise require too much time to pull to cause a gap between grouping and soloing.

A good fix would be to give groups of 4 or more a bit of an xp bonus. Everyone solo's >>

[Bigtime]

If all you want to do is solo why not play a single player game?

[PunkrawkBbob]

If all you want to do is solo why not play a single player game?

I agree with Bigtime entirely. The point of the group isn't to be the fastest route to 50, but it is definitely a hell of a lot more fun. Plus you get to meet people who are quality who you can be in a guild with and do higher end raids. Good luck getting experience in group situations for raids if all you do is solo all the way to 50.

[valorborn]

I really love grouping but I'm having trouble finding groups in CB at least. I have been on for about 8 hours today and have yet to find a group 12+ in CB to join. I have a 7 paladin but finding groups with him as been real hit or miss. When Tiff can play it'll be different though as we can just grab whoever is available as there's been a lot of people LFG today just not enough healers.

And that is really compounded by the fact that there are a lot of mages and Plvers that frequent CB.

I did check out BB on my erudite and it only had about 6 people in it, none of which seemed to be grouping.

If the pets where the old school pets it would be better for low leveling grouping I think, all we really need are more people rolling clerics/druids to fill out the tanks/dps who are LFG.

Another issue with people soloing is that they end up training a lot. I've never trained the zone as I always try to gate, IMO its safer as it is faster, but a lot of the soloers pull to odd places, or even just train groups to clear the camp.

[Iceyhot]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

thoughts?

[eqdruid76]

I agree with Bigtime entirely. The point of the group isn't to get any experience at all, but it is definitely a hell of a lot more pointless. Plus you get to meet people who absolutely suck who you can be in a guild with and fail consistently at higher end raids. Good luck pressing 3 buttons for raids if all you do is solo all the way to 50.

Fixed, utterly.

[alexandervaccaro]

does project 1999 have group exp bonus?

[Reiker]

When I was leveling my mage, I used to group with pretty much the same people from 30+, guys that really knew what they were doing. The group exp blew away what I could do solo, even 40+ (hell, especially 40+). Sometimes none of our crew would be on and I'd solo at the best exp spot in the game and be sad at the slow exp rate compared to our normal group.

RIP Emo Kids.

tldr: group exp is fine, find good players that can hold those tough camps.

[Nedala]

ever been at a royals aoe grp?

do it, and then tell me grp exp would suck. (if you are not a mage or necro that is, of course you will get more exp solo, as a solo class).

Btw tell a warrior grouping is pointless :D

[yaeger]

I can see why the Devs have a hard time deciding what's class and what is not, it's not easy finding out data. Nerfing solo classes would cause a huge community backlash.

Not true, I've checked it with debugging repeatedly. In fact what happens is:

Example mob worth 1000 xp.

One person killing one mob gets 1000xp.

Six people killing six mobs get 6600xp (which equates to 1100xp per player before normalization).

If all six players are the same level and are class/race combinations without any XP modifier then all six players will get 1100xp each.

However, if the group is again the same level, but has some penalties etc, it works out like this:


Race Class Per Mob For Six
--------- ------- ------- -------
Human Cleric 162 974
Ogre Warrior 174 1042
Halfling Rogue 142 851
Erudite Wizard 180 1083
Barbarian Shaman 171 1026
Half-elf Ranger 271 1624
--------- ------- ------- -------
Total 1100 6600

So except for the Human Cleric and the Halfing Rogue, all members of the group earn more XP for killing 6 mobs while grouped than they did killing one mob solo.

The benefits of solo'ing vs. grouping depend on a lot of factors, but from a raw XP perspective, if the group can consistently kill 6 mobs in the amount of time the solo'er kills one mob, the group will earn faster XP over time.

So basically a group will earn a bonus (10% more experience with a full group). Depending on your group makeup, even with the group experience bonus, you can earn LESS experience killing 6 mobs, than a solo player will achieve by killing a single one.

However, according to:


------------------------------
June 11, 2003
------------------------------

** Experience System Change - Grouping **

We've made some improvements to the way experience is rewarded in EverQuest.
These improvements are aimed at positively reinforcing the
act of grouping. After all, this is a Massively Multiplayer game.

Prior to this update groups gained a 2% to 20% experience bonus for
having two to six members.

As of today this bonus has increased to range from 20% to 80% for
having two to five members. When a group adds a sixth member, the 80%
bonus remains, but the experience gained is only divided by 5 before
being distributed. The sixth group member no longer causes the
experience gain to be divided by 6.

Meaning in classic EQ a full group would have a total of 20% experience with the bonus scaling as you gained more members.

I'm sure there are other reasons that solo classes can gain such a clear-cut advantage in experience that haven't been addressed. Things like mages old-style bolt spells that would strike terrain and have z-axis requirements. Also, in classic I remember roots would override snares. Perhaps, pet heals never got reset back to their previous values, previous hate values, etc.

I'm hesitant to put more on the devs shoulders, but the whole unbalanced group vs solo thing seems to be really hurting the community.

[UrsusMajor]

I think another reason for slower xp grouped vs. solo is rate of pull. As has been shown above, it can take 6+ mobs killed in a full group to equal 1 mob killed solo.

This means that your group most likely needs to be pulling yellow to red con mobs and needs to be pulling them constantly. The only problem with this is red cons can be extremely difficult if a camp isn't broken and with the slightest misstep can cause a wipe. So many groups instead go for DB - Yellow mobs. The problem then arises of not enough mobs to keep a constant stream coming as they go down so fast.

I know when my druid grouped in Unrest, grouping was always much slower than soloing. It was easier than soloing and more fun but xp really sucked.

Another good example and yes I know this weekend was a 25% xp bonus but my necro went being level 40 with 2.5 yellows to hitting level 60 this weekend. This was just xping Sat-Sunday. I hit 46 at about 5pm est. Without the xp bonus I'd say I'd probably just have hit level 45.

How does that compare that to high level grouping?

[President]

Another good example and yes I know this weekend was a 25% xp bonus but my necro went being level 40 with 2.5 yellows to hitting level 60 this weekend. This was just xping Sat-Sunday. I hit 46 at about 5pm est. Without the xp bonus I'd say I'd probably just have hit level 45.

:confused:

[eqdruid76]

Solo xp > group xp, but groups allow one to be lazy and more careless. Hence, groups are preferred, and it's easier to make up data to support grouping than it does for soloing.

Anyway, how much chain pulling actually occurs pre-Kunark? Seafuries if you're REALLY lucky. Everywhere else is too crowded.

Grouping will start to be worth it in Overthere and Dreadlands.

[RKromwell]

I spend a lot more time sitting on my ass solo, I would much rather be in a group.

[Ponden]

If you can't find a group or find that groups are really bad. Maybe you should take on the initiative of being the tank or healer and possibly change the way groups are ran.

Or you can be a dps and keep crying. Either way, nothing is wrong with grouping.

[Nedala]

i always group, i grouped all the way to 50 on my druid and it didnt seem slow at all, this was before the group exp nerf. After the nerf i leveled (still leveling) on my ench and it feels really slow, but it gets better, my exp bar now(lvl 30+) moves as fast as it did from lvl 10-20 , ....doesnt seem to get slower. Also on my lvl 50 druid my exp bar moves as fast as on my 30ish enchanter(after i ate some 0% rezzes).

Im still sure something is not right there, because i dont feel like theres a leveling curve at all after lvl 10....and no, i dont think exp in higher level should be slower, but it should be faster in lower levels :)

[yaeger]

Solo xp > group xp, but groups allow one to be lazy and more careless. Hence, groups are preferred, and it's easier to make up data to support grouping than it does for soloing.

It's a wrong assumption that grouping is preferred so people can be lazy and careless. I'm surprised you even mentioned it. Like all things it depends on the people.

You have an opinion, that's fantastic. How about using examples and evidence to back up your opinion. It's not always 'making up' evidence if the sources are trustworthy.

This isn't the first post about this issue, that should tell you that's it's a pretty common concern within the community.

[eqdruid76]

It's a wrong assumption that grouping is preferred so people can be lazy and careless. I'm surprised you even mentioned it. Like all things it depends on the people.

You have an opinion, that's fantastic. How about using examples and evidence to back up your opinion. It's not always 'making up' evidence if the sources are trustworthy.

This isn't the first post about this issue, that should tell you that's it's a pretty common concern within the community.

Aye, so is bickering about it and ultimately coming to NO conclusions.

What it comes down to is that in a lot of cases, it's REALLY tough to group with some of the buffoons who play on this server, not necessarly because they're bad, but because they're unequipped with the social skills to get along with 5 other players for more than 10 minutes before they start nerdraging. A lot of the time, it is simply easier and less stressful to solo than to put up with those clowns.

I mean, you think Abacab is the only guy around here who enjoys griefing everyone around them? False. More than half the population do it on an hourly basis. For jollies.

If you're lucky to roll with a good crew of groupies, then huzzah for you. Don't piss them off.

[eqdruid76]

I've had some good grouping experiences levelling up, primarily with the same dozen or so players. Otherwise, the playing field is filled with legions of whiney crybabies, griefers and control freaks. And then there's Maude....

[yaeger]

That's why a lot of people are angry over this issue. It only takes 1 person in a group to mess it up for everyone. Not only that, but things have a way of getting very ugly, very fast in some cases wiping everyone.

There's all this extra risk, but where's the benefit to counter-balance it? A couple posts ago I gave evidence from patch notes and people doing exp calculations that group exp may not be what it once was during Classic.

In classic, solo players would usually get more experience than grouped because it was a consistent, relatively safe way to gain experience. You wouldn't have to sit around for 20 mins trying to find a replacement healer.

Now solo players are stating that they can earn around TWICE the experience that a group member can, even if the group can chain pull with a perfect group composition.

Something's off, we'd be neglectful if we didn't try to find out what's wrong with the system, and why these discrepancies exist.

[Ralexia]

I find that I die a lot less in a group. With most groups having 2 healers, it is pretty hard to die. Most people are smart enough to root park so overpulled melee mobs aren't too difficult. I'm a mid 30s monk, so soloing is quite dangerous due to beginning fights at 50% or 75% health.

One thing I need to point out to people: You don't need to have 6 people to have an effective group! Duo's work well frequently and 3 or 4 person groups shine. Some of the most effective groups I've had are Monk(tank), magician(dps) or other dps, shaman/clr/dru x2. You'll pull non-stop and people seem more social in small groups. This works best when all you're pulling are dbs.

[Reiker]

Now solo players are stating that they can earn around TWICE the experience that a group member can, even if the group can chain pull with a perfect group composition.

Something's off, we'd be neglectful if we didn't try to find out what's wrong with the system, and why these discrepancies exist.

No, there's plenty of people who play solo classes who rightfully believe that group exp can be way faster than solo. You all just choose to ignore those people so you have something to cry about.

[Nedala]

I read a lot, about really bad people running around everywhere and messing up grouping, in this thread.
I really dont die a lot in groups and im never soloing. I also group with a lot of different people because im leveling my enchanter very slowly. But in all the time leveling a druid to 50 and an ench to 30 all the way in groups i didnt manage to group with more than a few bad person. *shrug*

[yaeger]

No, there's plenty of people who play solo classes who rightfully believe that group exp can be way faster than solo.

If that were true we'd see more mages, druids, necros and such in groups instead camped out solo all over the place.

Sure, if the stars align and the moon is full, the group that chain pulls and AOEs might edge out a solo player. But it's not a typical group setup.

Again, evidence please.

[Reiker]

If that were true we'd see more mages, druids, necros and such in groups instead camped out solo all over the place.

Sure, if the stars align and the moon is full, the group that chain pulls and AOEs might edge out a solo player. But it's not a typical group setup.

Again, evidence please.

Right, cause I'm fulfilling some sort of anti-solo agenda by making up lies about my grouping experiences. Hold on while I level 2 more mages to 50, one soloing and one grouping and mspaint some charts and graphs for you.

The thing is, most people roll mages/druids/necros so they can solo. But for the convenience, not the extra exp. Many people have jobs and social lives and can't commit 6 hours a day finding / maintaining a group. This is the benefit of solo classes, not experience.

And it's not a "stars aligning" thing. The crux of my sorta perma group (although it was more like a small guild of "skilled enough" players with which we could find members) was a mage and a paladin. I don't even remember ever grouping with an enchanter or cleric, we usually had the paladin and a druid or shaman on heals. A good puller (the paladin) was all we needed, as stuff dies fast enough solo and if you know what you're doing there's never more than 1-2 mobs in camp. Our groups were sub-par as far as class makeup goes, and it was still way faster than soloing. I could plow through high DBs in a large ZEM zone solo and the exp rate was painful compared to what I could get in a group.

Stop the penis envy and play the game.

[Troy]

My mage routinely killed 5 mobs every 6 minutes all the way up through level 50. Show me a group killing 30+ mobs every 6 minutes anywhere Reiker...

The problem is that the only places worth grouping in are hard, and just one death wastes at least an hour of time if not more. Or one person going LD or having to leave for whatever reason. It's just not worth it unless you're in a zone with a lot of players and at a good camp and the camp is broken and no one has to leave for 3+ hours and you don't have to go AFK at all. Otherwise you might as well solo.

[Reiker]

Like, I said, soloing is more convenient. A group takes more time and effort but in the end is more rewarding. Also, you should stop dying if it wastes so much of your time. Just a piece of advice.

[yaeger]

Like, I said, soloing is more convenient. A group takes more time and effort but in the end is more rewarding.

I don't see the greater reward, in either loot or exp. Nobody else does either.

[Reiker]

I don't see the greater reward, in either loot or exp. Nobody else does either.

Then I guess I just have to resort to the tired "you suck at EverQuest" because grouping is obviously faster.

[Tseng]

I don't see the greater reward, in either loot or exp. Nobody else does either.

ur doing it wrong

[Troy]

I dare anyone to show me a group getting a level every 2-2.5 hours at lvl 40+, hell even 30+ because that's what a solo mage can do with no risk at all.

[Sarkov]

Does a duo count? My wife & I (mnk/shm) beat that by a lot... did 41-43 in ~3.5 hours in lguk today. (granted the bonus helps).

[yaeger]

Well in reference to my earlier example, I'll do a number cruncher. Take it how you will. I'm going to assume that..

My mage routinely killed 5 mobs every 6 minutes all the way up through level 50. Show me a group killing 30+ mobs every 6 minutes anywhere Reiker...


is telling the truth, that he frequently did and could kill 5 mobs every 6 minutes.

The group would have to kill at least 30 mobs every 6 minutes, that's pulling and killing a mob every 12 seconds for 6 minutes without resting or medding.

I don't know many clerics, druids, shaman, wizards, enchanters, whatever that can take on 30 mobs in a 6 minute time frame without letting up and not run out of mana.

How long can the mage keep this up? Can he med while his pet kills and keep going after the 5 mobs/6 mins? Can the group continue to kill a mob every 12 seconds for hours and hours?

You want us to believe that a group can knock out more experience, that might be true if 6 mages grouped together. But please, provide numbers, examples, something we can grasp other than vague assurances.

[Troy]

Ditching the bonus that's 2.2 hours per level, not beating it by any means.

[Reiker]

It's pointless to crunch numbers when you don't even know the algorithm that P99 is using for experience.

[kenzar]

I agree with Bigtime entirely. The point of the group isn't to be the fastest route to 50, but it is definitely a hell of a lot more fun. Plus you get to meet people who are quality who you can be in a guild with and do higher end raids. Good luck getting experience in group situations for raids if all you do is solo all the way to 50.

Why would u want to hang around at the low levels? all the fun stuff is at 46+! getting there asap should be the point imo.

most people played this game before and dont require "group experience" to know what they will be doing in a raid situation. and sometimes what you will be doing in a group wont necessarily be what you are doing in a raid.

as for grouping will help u find a guild to to higher end raids with, unless u are grouping with IB/DA/WI/Div you arent going to be doing any higher end raids really, maybe trash clears with guilds other than them, if you can call that raiding.

IMO, its a 3 step process:
1. power through 1 - 50 as fast as fucking possible. solo or group whichever is fastest.
2. join a guild that clears planes and get gear. if thats all you want to do then stay at this step. if you want to down planar bosses then....
3. take that gear and app to a real raiding guild, IB/DA/WI/Div

[yaeger]

It's pointless to crunch numbers when you don't even know the algorithm that P99 is using for experience.

It's not pointless, look at page 2 of this topic where I quoted one of the developers on this very subject.

[Reiker]

It's not pointless, look at page 2 of this topic where I quoted one of the developers on this very subject.

Then your math is bad. You're saying that a full group would have to kill 30+ mobs every 6 minutes to compete with a soloer. If a group was killing 30 mobs / 6 minutes, and a soloer killing 5 / 6 minutes, the full group would be receiving approximately 10% more exp than the soloer and that's not factoring things such as better zone ZEM, less downtime, etc.

[yaeger]

Then your math is bad. You're saying that a full group would have to kill 30+ mobs every 6 minutes to compete with a soloer. If a group was killing 30 mobs / 6 minutes, and a soloer killing 5 / 6 minutes, the full group would be receiving approximately 10% more exp than the soloer and that's not factoring things such as better zone ZEM, less downtime, etc.

Serious.. you didn't even read the post?

[kenzar]

Soloing doesnt require you to sit and wait for a group, please account for that in your math.

[Troy]

Was factoring in downtime and ZEM. I'm assuming xp penalties will cancel out the ZEM, but even if they don't you'd still have to kill 20+ mobs per 6 mins and even that I've never seen.

[abbadox]

A good fix would be to give groups of 4 or more a bit of an xp bonus. Everyone solo's >>

I am all for this. A group exp bonus would be great. I think with the knowledge we all have of EQ, how to obtain plats, loots, gear -- we all can level pretty quickly soloable.

But grouping you have to worry about.
1: Finding one in a preferrable zone
2: adeqate usefulness of other group members (healer, tank, dps, nuker etc)
3: And exp flow.

THe side things one worries about is if they can get a group, what is their time frame to play.

Playing it Solo allows for groupless adventures w/out having to think about grouping. But in the long run I think doing raids, there is going to be too many soloable classes and not enough of the other class that can take the damage.

[Reiker]

Serious.. you didn't even read the post?

Yeah you got me, I just calculated numbers and percentages without reading the post you referenced. In fact it seems highly likely that you did a straight divide by six instead of adding the 10% exp bonus that Bum mentioned. Didn't you read the post, dude? The post man, did you read it? There's a post. About group experience calculations. You should read it.

[yaeger]

Yeah you got me, I just calculated numbers and percentages without reading the post you referenced. In fact it seems highly likely that you did a straight divide by six instead of adding the 10% exp bonus that Bum mentioned. Didn't you read the post, dude? The post man, did you read it? There's a post. About group experience calculations. You should read it.

Fine.. I'll help you.


Not true, I've checked it with debugging repeatedly. In fact what happens is:

Example mob worth 1000 xp.

One person killing one mob gets 1000xp.

Six people killing six mobs get 6600xp (which equates to 1100xp per player before normalization).

If all six players are the same level and are class/race combinations without any XP modifier then all six players will get 1100xp each.

However, if the group is again the same level, but has some penalties etc, it works out like this:

Code:

Race Class Per Mob For Six
--------- ------- ------- -------
Human Cleric 162 974
Ogre Warrior 174 1042
Halfling Rogue 142 851
Erudite Wizard 180 1083
Barbarian Shaman 171 1026
Half-elf Ranger 271 1624
--------- ------- ------- -------
Total 1100 6600

So except for the Human Cleric and the Halfing Rogue, all members of the group earn more XP for killing 6 mobs while grouped than they did killing one mob solo.

The benefits of solo'ing vs. grouping depend on a lot of factors, but from a raw XP perspective, if the group can consistently kill 6 mobs in the amount of time the solo'er kills one mob, the group will earn faster XP over time.

[Reiker]

Was factoring in downtime and ZEM. I'm assuming xp penalties will cancel out the ZEM, but even if they don't you'd still have to kill 20+ mobs per 6 mins and even that I've never seen.

Really, once you consider the ENTIRE picture (hybrid penalties are a huge variable and can negatively effect your exp of course, but not all classes have a penalty and mages/necros do) it comes out to be more like 2-3 mobs a minute which is completely doable.

[Reiker]

Fine.. I'll help you.

I'll help you out too since I know you've been too busy with burger flipping to learn the maths.

One person killing one mob gets 1000xp.

Six people killing six mobs get 6600xp (which equates to 1100xp per player before normalization).

If all six players are the same level and are class/race combinations without any XP modifier then all six players will get 1100xp each.

This means that a group gets a bonus 10% exp. You seem to have left that out bro.

[yaeger]

This means that a group gets a bonus 10% exp. You seem to have left that out bro.

That wasn't left out at all. Even with a 10% bonus to exp, a typical group would still need to kill 6 mobs for every soloer mob. Take away the bonus and maybe the number is 7 mobs. Etc. Etc.

Depending on the class and race of the group members and solo player will change the data. But it's pretty easy to understand.

[Troy]

Really, once you consider the ENTIRE picture (hybrid penalties are a huge variable and can negatively effect your exp of course, but not all classes have a penalty and mages/necros do) it comes out to be more like 2-3 mobs a minute which is completely doable.

Welcome to the let's pull numbers out of nowhere game. 2-3 a minute is 12-15 every 6 minutes, at best 3x that of the soloer.

Maybe if you have no hybrids and a ZEM of 2 or greater that's possible, otherwise not a chance.

[Lazortag]

Sometimes the loot is better in groups. There are some camps your mage is just never going to be able to break, that have awesome loot. Then again, mages can do seafuries, which beats everything. Fuck.

[Reiker]

That wasn't left out at all. Even with a 10% bonus to exp, a typical group would still need to kill 6 mobs for every soloer mob. Take away the bonus and maybe the number is 7 mobs. Etc. Etc.

Missed this post bro.

Then your math is bad. You're saying that a full group would have to kill 30+ mobs every 6 minutes to compete with a soloer. If a group was killing 30 mobs / 6 minutes, and a soloer killing 5 / 6 minutes, the full group would be receiving approximately 10% more exp than the soloer and that's not factoring things such as better zone ZEM, less downtime, etc.

I'll clarify because now I realize your country's education system has failed you. I'll use fake numbers because they'll be easier to grasp. I'll keep them relatively low also in case you can't count that high.

Mage killing 5 mobs (10000 exp each) every 6 minutes (more on this later) = 50000 exp.
Group killing 30 mobs every 6 minutes = 55000 exp

In your scenario, the group earns 10% more exp than the soloer. Because most likely you left out the 10% exp bonus. Not sure how to keep this simpler!

Welcome to the let's pull numbers out of nowhere game. 2-3 a minute is 12-15 every 6 minutes, at best 3x that of the soloer.

Maybe if you have no hybrids and a ZEM of 2 or greater that's possible, otherwise not a chance.

The problem here is you guys are taking that 5 mobs / 6 minutes too seriously. Mage soloing kind of goes in peaks and valleys, and unless everyone here only plays EQ for 6 minutes at a time is meaningless. The best question here is how many mobs can a mage kill over an hour straight? Better yet, 10 hours? Sure you may be able to summon a pet, buff, start a timer, and kill 5 mobs before 6 minutes. But eventually you'll have to re-summon or heal your pet. You'll have to rebuff your pet. You'll have to run a bit to find mobs. You'll have to wait on respawns. Groups are being undersold and a mage's ability to solo is being glorified in an attempt to prove a point. I'm trying to be the voice of reason.

But that's the problem, reason on P99 is about as welcome as a stripper in a nunnery.

[Noselacri]

Well, the thing is that if you're no longer hugely amused by the various dungeons, soloing can be a much more pleasant experience. I get the impression that the soloers are mainly people who enjoy classic but haven't been waiting 8 years for it; i.e they're the ones who have been drifting from classic server to classic server on emu, or they're the ones who haven't been missing it so much they could cry but still find it mildly entertaining. They're also often people who still play Live, or have up until recently. In groups, I see mostly people who a) haven't played for 8 years or b) just want to experience the old days for sheer nostalgia. They aren't the ones who long for high-end raiding, or the ones who have been playing the game on and off all along. For that reason, joining a group often means playing with people who aren't hardcore gamers or haven't been for a decade. Seems that the min-maxing experts who know everything and can play their classes to perfection are either out there soloing, or are playing with their RL friends and pay little attention to those around them. Basically, joining a group almost always means playing with at least a couple of bad players.

That's no problem in and of itself. All games have bad players, and it was no different back in the day. However, what's different is the fact that most soloable classes can get similar or sometimes much better exp from soloing, without having to deal with people who consistently cause wipes or play their classes poorly. They rely only on themselves, and if they know what they're doing, it's simply much less of a hassle than grouping in a dungeon. If you don't specifically miss the grouping aspect, and if you aren't overly interested in meeting more internet strangers - after all, we gamers have met thousands upon thousands, and it sort of loses its appeal - well, then grouping isn't all that attractive. Add to that the fact that soloing tends to be a good deal more safe, offers many more options, can be much more profitable than regular exp grouping, and allows you to do whatever you please and go AFK for 15 minutes when you feel like it.

And that's the thing, really. The benefits of soloing are supposed to come at the price of less but safer exp and a lack of interaction. However, the guy who played back in anno 1999 when he was 18 and had a blast joking around with strangers and staying up until 2AM and so on, he's now a grown man with a wife and a crying kid in the next room. He doesn't care as much about bullshitting with other youngsters, and he doesn't need to play in an environment where having to leave the computer for 20 minutes is a problem. And unlike the EQ he remembered, this version actually rewards him much more for refraining to group. Suddenly soloing isn't something to do when there are no groups available, or the only way for classes that aren't highly desirable in groups. It's the best way to level up and by far the most convenient way to play for him. And since many, if not most players, are now more like him than the energetic teenagers they were when they started playing ten or eleven years ago, it's no wonder more and more players prefer the spectre island over Lower Guk.

Other than that, there has been a simple change of mentality in gaming over the years. Back then, Everquest was a modern game and we didn't really question it. Now, after most of us have played WoW or EQ2 or whatever, and after MMORPG gaming as a whole has shifted to an entirely different atmosphere, EQ turns out to be a brutally punishing and unforgiving game. Dying while camping bouncers in Oggok means a loss of exp and a 10 second corpse run. Dying at the bottom of SolB means a loss of exp, a corpse run of potentially hours, and quite likely a further loss of exp as you die once or twice trying to recover. These are things we put up with back in the day, both because grouping was the more effectively way to level and because that's how games were. Now, neither of those two are the case. What seemed like a fact of life back in the day, the hour-long CR or the hours of going from dungeon to dungeon trying to find a group, those aren't really acceptable in today's gaming industry. It's no longer an accepted element of the game, it's a thing that constantly pisses you off. And when the exp then isn't even better, it's sort of hard to justify grouping. You'd have to just love grouping for the sake of grouping, despite the disadvantages that it tends to come with. Virtually all of EQ1's gear is tradeable, anyway.

Until grouping becomes substantially better exp than soloing, we'll see hordes of people playing necros, mages and druids, and we'll see ridiculous amounts of soloing. We can't change the fact that most of the players have grown older and live lives that make soloing more convenient than grouping, but if they want to solo, it should be for that reason; not because it's twice as fast as Guk.

[yaeger]

Not sure why the antagonism, but I've bolded the quote for you.

Not true, I've checked it with debugging repeatedly. In fact what happens is:

Example mob worth 1000 xp.

One person killing one mob gets 1000xp.

Six people killing six mobs get 6600xp (which equates to 1100xp per player before normalization). In this area the 10% experience is applied in the calculations as 1000 * 6 * 1.1(10% experience bonus) = 6600xp.

If all six players are the same level and are class/race combinations without any XP modifier then all six players will get 1100xp each.

However, if the group is again the same level, but has some penalties etc, it works out like this:


Race Class Per Mob For Six
--------- ------- ------- -------
Human Cleric 162 974
Ogre Warrior 174 1042
Halfling Rogue 142 851
Erudite Wizard 180 1083
Barbarian Shaman 171 1026
Half-elf Ranger 271 1624
--------- ------- ------- -------
Total 1100 6600

So except for the Human Cleric and the Halfing Rogue, all members of the group earn more XP for killing 6 mobs while grouped than they did killing one mob solo.

The benefits of solo'ing vs. grouping depend on a lot of factors, but from a raw XP perspective, if the group can consistently kill 6 mobs in the amount of time the solo'er kills one mob, the group will earn faster XP over time.

The number I came up with (6 kills for every solo kill) was not arbitrary.

And sure, they have peaks and valleys. But how many groups can break, kill, and even find 30+ even con mobs to kill every 5 mins. That's very unlikely and IF a group COULD kill 30 mobs in 5 mins.. where would they continue to get mobs from to keep even with the soloer?

The ease of play definitely goes to the soloer. Experience too. Hell, just about everything.

[Troy]

The problem here is you guys are taking that 5 mobs / 6 minutes too seriously. Mage soloing kind of goes in peaks and valleys, and unless everyone here only plays EQ for 6 minutes at a time is meaningless. The best question here is how many mobs can a mage kill over an hour straight? Better yet, 10 hours? Sure you may be able to summon a pet, buff, start a timer, and kill 5 mobs before 6 minutes. But eventually you'll have to re-summon or heal your pet. You'll have to rebuff your pet. You'll have to run a bit to find mobs. You'll have to wait on respawns. Groups are being undersold and a mage's ability to solo is being glorified in an attempt to prove a point. I'm trying to be the voice of reason.

But that's the problem, reason on P99 is about as welcome as a stripper in a nunnery.

Did it myself for at least 5 hours straight. I didn't mean 5 mobs in a single period of 6 minutes, I meant 250 mobs in 5 hours. Lost my rhythm with a crash to desktop.

[Reiker]

And sure, they have peaks and valleys. But how many groups can break, kill, and even find 30+ even con mobs to kill every 5 mins. That's very unlikely and IF a group COULD kill 30 mobs in 5 mins.. where would they continue to get mobs from to keep even with the soloer?

The ease of play definitely goes to the soloer. Experience too. Hell, just about everything.

I'm still not sure why you're sticking with your 30+ number as a group killing 30+ mobs every 5 minutes would be earning WAY more experience than a soloer.

As I stated, when you factor all the variables, a group would need to kill about 3 mobs every minute (at the high end) to compete. I was able to do this back in October/November (much less gear available) at SolB royals with no cleric and no CC and with no downtime.

[yaeger]

I'm still not sure why you're sticking with your 30+ number as a group killing 30+ mobs every 5 minutes would be earning WAY more experience than a soloer.

As I stated, when you factor all the variables, a group would need to kill about 3 mobs every minute (at the high end) to compete. I was able to do this back in October/November (much less gear available) at SolB royals with no cleric and no CC and with no downtime.

Prove it.. use da math. We know all the class and race experience penalties. I've provided proof to back up my 30+ number. You do the same.

[hueylewis187]

It's different now tiki , try it out with lightblues giving barely any xp.
Shared hybrid penalty. . . highest lvl in the group gets most the xp.
You can't group with any 50's and get much xp anymore.

Wayyyy different than back at server release. Much more competition for mobs also.

only the 5 or 6 solo classes go faster "much faster" than a great group in the perfect spot. I see solo classes grouping all the time. Especially together. Counted 11 out of 12 people in paw that were mages today. ....

[Tork]

Grouping for me is why I enjoy EQ - sometimes even horrible PUGs are fun in weird, random ways that result in negative xp. When everything goes well, grouping is amazing fun.

But yah, no question - solo classes have it easier in that they have they option to group OR solo.

[Taluvill]

Then I guess I just have to resort to the tired "you suck at EverQuest" because grouping is obviously faster.

For once, I actually agree with Tiki here. Grouping is much faster, and, pre-manastone it was basically all that I did. I got my manastone at 34 duoing the camp with a 29 Druid. Grouping in Sol A was much better than anything I could have asked for soloing.

When I got my manastone, Keeping the BB docks clear and the BB house clear was awesome exp, as BB has a newbie exp bonus. With a Manastone (not a usual item), I can hit loads of exp while I was LFG on the global channels. Once I was able to get into a Sol B Royals group though (usually didn't take too long because the same good players kept camps and invited the same good players)
the exp was MUCH better. Grouping Exp is much better.


tldr: Unless I'm quadding with regen and my manastone, grouping is much faster. and even quadding with my manastone, soloing was still slower most of the time (depends on the group members and the particular camp.)

[Taluvill]

I'm still not sure why you're sticking with your 30+ number as a group killing 30+ mobs every 5 minutes would be earning WAY more experience than a soloer.

As I stated, when you factor all the variables, a group would need to kill about 3 mobs every minute (at the high end) to compete. I was able to do this back in October/November (much less gear available) at SolB royals with no cleric and no CC and with no downtime.

This. It's not that hard.

Edit: and 30 mobs in 5 minutes is rediculous. absolutely ludicrous. any group would blaze past any soloer.

[eqdruid76]

I just realized...

Most of these figures are based off levelling in Oasis.

[Taluvill]

RIP Emo Kids.


Did karsten keep a toon with guild leadership over that?

[Troy]

For once, I actually agree with Tiki here. Grouping is much faster, and, pre-manastone it was basically all that I did. I got my manastone at 34 duoing the camp with a 29 Druid. Grouping in Sol A was much better than anything I could have asked for soloing.

When I got my manastone, Keeping the BB docks clear and the BB house clear was awesome exp, as BB has a newbie exp bonus. With a Manastone (not a usual item), I can hit loads of exp while I was LFG on the global channels. Once I was able to get into a Sol B Royals group though (usually didn't take too long because the same good players kept camps and invited the same good players)
the exp was MUCH better. Grouping Exp is much better.


tldr: Unless I'm quadding with regen and my manastone, grouping is much faster. and even quadding with my manastone, soloing was still slower most of the time (depends on the group members and the particular camp.)

Druids are extremely slow at soloing, of course grouping will be faster for you. Keep in mind that a mage can solo at like 5x the rate of a druid.

[Taluvill]

Druids are extremely slow at soloing, of course grouping will be faster for you. Keep in mind that a mage can solo at like 5x the rate of a druid.

Granted. The only soloing a druid should really be doing is quadding, and I've found that even that is slow unless I have my manastone.

Edit: When I quadded, the population was a LOT lower than it is today, but I would only really quad while I was LFG. A lot more of the camps were open and available.

[Sareil]

I do remember quadding as a wizard on live. This was in PoP, but on the Velious Wyverns. It was never as good of xp as grouping was (or remotely as safe), but it was close, and the plat I got from it faaaar exceeded anything I could get grouping.

[Eternal-Elf]

When EverQuest first came out grouping was a great way to see more difficult parts of the game than you could see by yourself. That is what made it such a social game. You could rely on your party members to heal, DPS, CC, or do whatever to get you farther into the dungeon than you'd ever gone before, or into a zone that was dangerous alone.
However, now that 98% of the population has seen and done everything this game has to offer there is no incentive to "adventure". There is only the incentive to poopsock your way to level 50 and hope to get into a guild where you can continue to poopsock your way to getting items you would have deleted on live.

This game is very fun, but there is nothing new. I seriously envy the players that are experiencing it for the first time.

eh

[zianlo1]

[QUOTE=Noselacri;129165]
And that's the thing, really. The benefits of soloing are supposed to come at the price of less but safer exp and a lack of interaction. However, the guy who played back in anno 1999 when he was 18 and had a blast joking around with strangers and staying up until 2AM and so on, he's now a grown man with a wife and a crying kid in the next room. He doesn't care as much about bullshitting with other youngsters, and he doesn't need to play in an environment where having to leave the computer for 20 minutes is a problem. And unlike the EQ he remembered, this version actually rewards him much more for refraining to group. Suddenly soloing isn't something to do when there are no groups available, or the only way for classes that aren't highly desirable in groups. It's the best way to level up and by far the most convenient way to play for him. And since many, if not most players, are now more like him than the energetic teenagers they were when they started playing ten or eleven years ago, it's no wonder more and more players prefer the spectre island over Lower Guk.
[QUOTE]

This is myself and my g/f...Overall, awesome post. Stupid quote btw is not working for me....

[fugazi]

Add a slash so it becomes [/quote..], thats how you close a quote ;)

Anyways, after reading through the entire discussion and weighing up all the options I still think that adding a small boost to group xp would be good. We're all poisoned by WoW and aging, and most us could use a nudge here.

[Qaedain]

The most reliable mid-40s solo camp for a Mage is spectres in Oasis, I think. The five ground-level spawns can be cleared before repops, consuming sufficiently little mana to keep this cycle going indefinitely.

I don't know how long the respawns are, but 9-11 minutes feels right.

Reasonably speaking, a Mage requires about 2-3 minutes of meditating to regenerate enough mana to come out ahead relative to what is required for the next pull, rebuffs, etc.

In other words: in the 2-3 minutes it takes for a Mage to kill one mob and prepare for the next--that is, real grinding, not simply draining your mana bar to kill as quickly as possible--a group could easily bring in 2-3% exp. I did it tonight at BNB myself.

Ceteris paribus, grouping is faster.

[Braveguard]

Crowding is the only issue I see. It's harder to find a good spot for a group of six. I've been playing a druid with a mage partner and we both gain faster exp together than we do solo (although the edge probably goes to me... might be bigger but I tend to push the envelope more). We almost don't stop when grouped. Her pet and my buffs allow us to pretty much keep going non-stop... IF there are available pulls. I'm familiar enough with the old world zones that we've done well enough so far but I see that changing as we level up and run into more contention.

Fortunately for me, I'm only leveling the druid so I can have a runner. I'll probably switch to a paladin (yeah, Im sick in the head that way). At that point, my grouping priorities change a lot. I have enough exp to solo a pally effectively but I like dungeons and grouping in dungeons and the loot in dungeons. Of course, you don't play a hybrid if leveling is your chief aim. :)

[Messianic]

Solo XP i've found is much better than full-group exp in nearly every circumstance.

Duo XP is better than any 6-man i've found, with the right group and camp.

[azeth]

Not that I assume you all are not considering it, but I find one of the real perks to soloing or duoing goes undermentioned. Not having to look for a group, or grind based on 4-5 other peoples schedules, I have found, is the real bonus to solo/duo experience versus group experience. When we leveled Meepo & Kashi it's not that grouping with 4 other people in a solid SolB Royals group (etc..) would have been that much worse experience per kill, it's that we can drop the same amount of mobs as a full group because we coordinate easily and do not have to wait for anyone.

[Rasterburn]

Some classes are so effective at soloing that it's a hard sell to get them to join a group and take an XP hit. For example: wizards, mages and especially pre-SOE necros (most OP'ed class in the game) have almost no incentive whatsoever to group, since they can quite easily solo their way to the top levels without any outside help. The same can be said for druids. Anybody who has watched a skilled wizzy or a druid quad-kiting in Cobalt Scar... getting four times the solo XP (and money) for roughly the same mana cost as they would expend on a single-mob pull... can easily understand why those classes might prefer to hunt solo. Just as you would understand after watching a pre-nerf necro (like my old main) soloing Lodizal in Iceclad. :p

[yaeger]

------------------------------
May 27, 2003
------------------------------

** Experience System Change - Grouping **

We've made some improvements to the way experience is rewarded in all
of EverQuest. At its core, the idea is to positively reinforce
grouping. There should never be any penalty to adding "that sixth
person over there," whatever class they may be, into your group. That
is exactly the type of behavior that should be rewarded.

In a massively multi-player game, any mechanic that penalizes those who
group is one that we need to take a serious look at. While there are
definite benefits to forming "well balanced" groups in terms of damage,
tanking, healing, and support, there shouldn't be an active penalty to
those who cannot find groups of "optimal" balance.

As it stands in EverQuest, groups gain a 2% to 20% experience bonus,
which we refer to as the "group bonus", for having two to six members.
In practice, however, this has never been much of a bonus, even in the
case of a full group, given that the experience was already being
divided six ways.

In the past, we had also attempted to reward people for adventuring in
the more challenging Planes of Power zones by making those zones give a
better rate of experience.

As of this update, groups now gain 20% to 80% "group bonus" experience
for having two to five members.

Full, six-person, groups now see an additional bonus. Their experience
is only divided five ways, yet they still gain the 80% "group bonus."
For those who think in terms of pie charts, it amounts to a larger
piece of a larger pie.


This is the earliest patch note that I could find where it refers to group experience. PoP is where I think they finally got balance down excellently between classes and between group/solo.

Though, it talks about previously having a +2% to +20% experience bonus for groups. Currently we only experience a +10% experience bonus with a full group.

Did I miss a patch note? Are we getting less exp than we should be with full groups?

[Messianic]

Anybody who has watched a skilled wizzy or a druid quad-kiting in Cobalt Scar...

That place was kind of an anomaly, though...I did that from 51-55 and it was, as you say, incredible exp and loot. I quad kited in the Scarlet desert after The Cobalt Scar, and although it was really good as well, it wasn't nearly as good xp or as easy as CS.

The problems with wizard quad kiting as a justification that they're uber soloers are as follows:

1) You can't sow yourself. Jboots become a necessity unless you want to waste a lot of time and mana (if you gate somewhere to get it) finding sows every 35 minutes. Jboots are still slower than high level sows.
2) Until 51 (Pillar of Frost), your AE spells are kinda junky in terms of mana efficiency- only a tad over a 1-1 mana-dmg ratio. Pillar of Frost is a sharp break from that and is nearly a 1-3 ratio. Atol's shackles (lvl 51 snare) is also a much better snare than bonds of force (lvl 29 snare).

Quad Kiting is still better solo xp than nearly any other option a wizard has available, but it really doesn't take off until post-50. Necros/Druids/Magi (or a well-geared monk killing blues in a good ZEM dungeon, for that matter) are far more efficient soloers, overall.

[Rasterburn]

It all depends upon your equipment. If you have the gear, as well as the skill to quad as a wizzy, then there are numerous zones where you can have lots of fun.

My alt was a wizzy, back during the Velious days. And the preferred gear was as follows:

(1) J-Boots (easy to get for a wiz).

(2) Staff Of Temperate Flux (insta-clicky from inventory, used for drive-by pulling at full running speed). Solo-able quest reward. Final stage is in Lake Rathe.

(3) Pillar Of Frost or Pillar Of Lightning AoE (depends upon mob resists).

(4) Atols' snare, but the lvl 29 snare works almost as well if you have J-Boots or a SoW pot.

(5) A brain boost buff. Clarity, KEI, whatever.

Procedure:

Pull all four mobs using Rod at full run speed. Run them into a tight circle. Get out ahead of them and then cast snare once (it's an AOE snare and you'll snag all four mobs at the same time). Then just blast them to bits. Lather, rise, repeat.

Favorite zones:

(1) Cobalt Scar (best $$$)
(2) The Grey (Luclin; need fishbone earring due to no air)
(3) Western Wastes

[Messianic]

It all depends upon your equipment. If you have the gear, as well as the skill to quad as a wizzy, then there are numerous zones where you can have lots of fun.

My alt was a wizzy, back during the Velious days. And the preferred gear was as follows:

(1) J-Boots (easy to get for a wiz).

(2) Staff Of Temperate Flux (insta-clicky from inventory, used for drive-by pulling at full running speed). Solo-able quest reward. Final stage is in Lake Rathe.

(3) Pillar Of Frost or Pillar Of Lightning AoE (depends upon mob resists).

(4) Atols' snare, but the lvl 29 snare works almost as well if you have J-Boots or a SoW pot.

(5) A brain boost buff. Clarity, KEI, whatever.

Procedure:

Pull all four mobs using Rod at full run speed. Run them into a tight circle. Get out ahead of them and then cast snare once (it's an AOE snare and you'll snag all four mobs at the same time). Then just blast them to bits. Lather, rise, repeat.

Favorite zones:

(1) Cobalt Scar (best $$$)
(2) The Grey (Luclin; need fishbone earring due to no air)
(3) Western Wastes

I'm aware of all this. The point was that until 51, quad kiting is nowhere near Necro/mage solo speeds. Even with Clarity and sow, quad kiting before 51 is slower than a necro/mage, particularly slower than a necro.

[Messianic]

Oh - In Velious - Rangers rival necros in solo efficiency when fighting animals (snare+Animal fear+beatdown).

[Overcast]

And you getting to 50 first because...


..... :)

No hate, just sayin'..

[Messianic]

And you getting to 50 first because...


..... :)

No hate, just sayin'..

I don't understand =)

[Rasterburn]

I'm aware of all this. The point was that until 51, quad kiting is nowhere near Necro/mage solo speeds. Even with Clarity and sow, quad kiting before 51 is slower than a necro/mage, particularly slower than a necro.

I disagree, although I will admit that my mid-level quads were mostly in Luclin zones. Although prior to Luclin, there were some quad kiting opportunities for wizards in Great Divide (giants) and I did quad there from time to time. Also possible to quad in Eastern Wastes in the mid levels. It all depended upon how much competition there was for the pulls.

For instance, one of my wizzy alts liked to quad zelniaks and shrooms in Dawnshroud Peaks (Luclin). Very easy pulls and great XP for the 30-40 levels. After level 40, I'd move over to the Tenebrous Mountains on Luclin and quad the sonic wolves there. Lots of mobs and lots of XP per hour. Also nearly no competition, since that zone is rather remote if you can't port to it (and wizards can).

Those zones would get you from 30 to 51... and then it was time to head off to the Cobalt Scar gravy train. :D

[Overcast]

I don't understand =)

Well, didn't mean first - I meant. What's the big rush to '50', why so much major concern over XP?

It just seems to be like rushing to a brick wall at a dead end. Once Kunark's out, cool, but...

I guess each person likes to play different. But I see lots of complaining about XP and soon it will be even more 'when it Kunark coming out' complaining.

Is what I was saying - nothing personal at all towards anyone, hehe

[gintu01]

I love how 9 pages of bullshit is listed as solo vs group when it's really Mage vs group. Not everyone wants to play a mage, or a druid or necro for that matter. Mages are easy to solo with, and comparing their xp with group xp is just rediculous.

Plus in what zone 30+ can you EVER kill 5 mobs every 6 minutes consistantly...everything is camped to shit.

[Rasterburn]

Overcast... I think it's also a matter of mana efficiency.

Let's say I'm a wizard. I have a limited mana pool. I can expend that mana in a group, nuking a single mob that the group pulled, and then sit on my ass and med during the next pull. Essentially useless to the group.

Or... I can go off on my own and expend that same amount of mana (more or less) on killing four mobs at once, all by myself. And I'll still spend the same time sitting on my butt medding up as I would in the group.

So on the one hand, I get a major XP hit for nuking in a group. And on the other hand, I get about eight times the XP by quad kiting (as opposed to group XP). All for the exact same mana and downtime costs.

See what I mean..? It's just more sensible for a wizzy to quad, if you're trying to level up and get some money. :)

[Overcast]

I was just rambling pre-coffee mostly. lol

But yeah.. I know XP does seem better solo. Regardless of mechanics, it just does.

I thought I recalled - from live, the same issue coming up and some changes being done to group XP to 'promote more grouping'. I might be wrong though, it could have been much later in the game on Live.

But on the Wizard, I played one for a while. I found it was best to just toss a nuke or two in a group, increasing DPS just a bit each mob, keeping 75+ mana, then if things got 'dicey' I could pick a target and pretty much destroy it.

I've been going back and forth between the Shaman and SK. In both cases the groups I was in the - XP was decent enough in a group to warrant not soloing, but it does require a good group and an area with enough mobs to make a group worth it..

Won't debate the XP group vs. solo thing, because for many classes (not all) solo will always be better XP. I'd even dropped groups in PoP and further with the Necro, because often I could solo what the group was killing - if I had room.

[Harmonicdeth]

Well, the thing is that if you're no longer hugely amused by the various dungeons, soloing can be a much more pleasant experience. I get the impression that the soloers are mainly people who enjoy classic but haven't been waiting 8 years for it; i.e they're the ones who have been drifting from classic server to classic server on emu, or they're the ones who haven't been missing it so much they could cry but still find it mildly entertaining. They're also often people who still play Live, or have up until recently. In groups, I see mostly people who a) haven't played for 8 years or b) just want to experience the old days for sheer nostalgia. They aren't the ones who long for high-end raiding, or the ones who have been playing the game on and off all along. For that reason, joining a group often means playing with people who aren't hardcore gamers or haven't been for a decade. Seems that the min-maxing experts who know everything and can play their classes to perfection are either out there soloing, or are playing with their RL friends and pay little attention to those around them. Basically, joining a group almost always means playing with at least a couple of bad players.

That's no problem in and of itself. All games have bad players, and it was no different back in the day. However, what's different is the fact that most soloable classes can get similar or sometimes much better exp from soloing, without having to deal with people who consistently cause wipes or play their classes poorly. They rely only on themselves, and if they know what they're doing, it's simply much less of a hassle than grouping in a dungeon. If you don't specifically miss the grouping aspect, and if you aren't overly interested in meeting more internet strangers - after all, we gamers have met thousands upon thousands, and it sort of loses its appeal - well, then grouping isn't all that attractive. Add to that the fact that soloing tends to be a good deal more safe, offers many more options, can be much more profitable than regular exp grouping, and allows you to do whatever you please and go AFK for 15 minutes when you feel like it.

And that's the thing, really. The benefits of soloing are supposed to come at the price of less but safer exp and a lack of interaction. However, the guy who played back in anno 1999 when he was 18 and had a blast joking around with strangers and staying up until 2AM and so on, he's now a grown man with a wife and a crying kid in the next room. He doesn't care as much about bullshitting with other youngsters, and he doesn't need to play in an environment where having to leave the computer for 20 minutes is a problem. And unlike the EQ he remembered, this version actually rewards him much more for refraining to group. Suddenly soloing isn't something to do when there are no groups available, or the only way for classes that aren't highly desirable in groups. It's the best way to level up and by far the most convenient way to play for him. And since many, if not most players, are now more like him than the energetic teenagers they were when they started playing ten or eleven years ago, it's no wonder more and more players prefer the spectre island over Lower Guk.

Other than that, there has been a simple change of mentality in gaming over the years. Back then, Everquest was a modern game and we didn't really question it. Now, after most of us have played WoW or EQ2 or whatever, and after MMORPG gaming as a whole has shifted to an entirely different atmosphere, EQ turns out to be a brutally punishing and unforgiving game. Dying while camping bouncers in Oggok means a loss of exp and a 10 second corpse run. Dying at the bottom of SolB means a loss of exp, a corpse run of potentially hours, and quite likely a further loss of exp as you die once or twice trying to recover. These are things we put up with back in the day, both because grouping was the more effectively way to level and because that's how games were. Now, neither of those two are the case. What seemed like a fact of life back in the day, the hour-long CR or the hours of going from dungeon to dungeon trying to find a group, those aren't really acceptable in today's gaming industry. It's no longer an accepted element of the game, it's a thing that constantly pisses you off. And when the exp then isn't even better, it's sort of hard to justify grouping. You'd have to just love grouping for the sake of grouping, despite the disadvantages that it tends to come with. Virtually all of EQ1's gear is tradeable, anyway.

Until grouping becomes substantially better exp than soloing, we'll see hordes of people playing necros, mages and druids, and we'll see ridiculous amounts of soloing. We can't change the fact that most of the players have grown older and live lives that make soloing more convenient than grouping, but if they want to solo, it should be for that reason; not because it's twice as fast as Guk.

QFT ^^ Truth in many circumstances....

[Aetherial]

Really, once you consider the ENTIRE picture (hybrid penalties are a huge variable and can negatively effect your exp of course, but not all classes have a penalty and mages/necros do) it comes out to be more like 2-3 mobs a minute which is completely doable.

Not going to get too deep into this but in all the years I played EQ, In the best groups I ever remember being in, I do not recall consistently pulling 2-3 MOBS a minute... that's a mob every 20-30 seconds.

On the other hand, even as the best soloer uber necro/mage in the world I can't see doing that pace either.

Sooner or later, the MOBs in the pullable area run out. Also, solo or group sooner or later you will have to med/heal/buff (I guess an unbuffed mage pet or necro pet doing all the killing would eliminate this).

I guess what I am saying is that there is some exageration going on about kill rates on this thread I think.

.... or I just suck; also a possibility.

[Rasterburn]

I guess what I am saying is that there is so exageration going on about kill rates on this thread I think.

.... or I just suck; also a possibility.

Well... my old main was a DE necro and yes, there is a certain amount of exaggeration happening here. :p

What I said about quad-kiting for wizzies was accurate, though.

Regarding necro pets... they aren't usually "un-buffed." We have our own pet buff spells (AC and haste buff), along with at least three different ways to heal the pet during combat.

[Aetherial]

Well, the thing is that if you're no longer hugely amused by the various dungeons, soloing can be a much more pleasant experience. I get the impression that the soloers are mainly people who enjoy classic but haven't been waiting 8 years for it; i.e they're the ones who have been drifting from classic server to classic server on emu, or they're the ones who haven't been missing it so much they could cry but still find it mildly entertaining. They're also often people who still play Live, or have up until recently. In groups, I see mostly people who a) haven't played for 8 years or b) just want to experience the old days for sheer nostalgia. They aren't the ones who long for high-end raiding, or the ones who have been playing the game on and off all along. For that reason, joining a group often means playing with people who aren't hardcore gamers or haven't been for a decade. Seems that the min-maxing experts who know everything and can play their classes to perfection are either out there soloing, or are playing with their RL friends and pay little attention to those around them. Basically, joining a group almost always means playing with at least a couple of bad players.

That's no problem in and of itself. All games have bad players, and it was no different back in the day. However, what's different is the fact that most soloable classes can get similar or sometimes much better exp from soloing, without having to deal with people who consistently cause wipes or play their classes poorly. They rely only on themselves, and if they know what they're doing, it's simply much less of a hassle than grouping in a dungeon. If you don't specifically miss the grouping aspect, and if you aren't overly interested in meeting more internet strangers - after all, we gamers have met thousands upon thousands, and it sort of loses its appeal - well, then grouping isn't all that attractive. Add to that the fact that soloing tends to be a good deal more safe, offers many more options, can be much more profitable than regular exp grouping, and allows you to do whatever you please and go AFK for 15 minutes when you feel like it.

And that's the thing, really. The benefits of soloing are supposed to come at the price of less but safer exp and a lack of interaction. However, the guy who played back in anno 1999 when he was 18 and had a blast joking around with strangers and staying up until 2AM and so on, he's now a grown man with a wife and a crying kid in the next room. He doesn't care as much about bullshitting with other youngsters, and he doesn't need to play in an environment where having to leave the computer for 20 minutes is a problem. And unlike the EQ he remembered, this version actually rewards him much more for refraining to group. Suddenly soloing isn't something to do when there are no groups available, or the only way for classes that aren't highly desirable in groups. It's the best way to level up and by far the most convenient way to play for him. And since many, if not most players, are now more like him than the energetic teenagers they were when they started playing ten or eleven years ago, it's no wonder more and more players prefer the spectre island over Lower Guk.

Other than that, there has been a simple change of mentality in gaming over the years. Back then, Everquest was a modern game and we didn't really question it. Now, after most of us have played WoW or EQ2 or whatever, and after MMORPG gaming as a whole has shifted to an entirely different atmosphere, EQ turns out to be a brutally punishing and unforgiving game. Dying while camping bouncers in Oggok means a loss of exp and a 10 second corpse run. Dying at the bottom of SolB means a loss of exp, a corpse run of potentially hours, and quite likely a further loss of exp as you die once or twice trying to recover. These are things we put up with back in the day, both because grouping was the more effectively way to level and because that's how games were. Now, neither of those two are the case. What seemed like a fact of life back in the day, the hour-long CR or the hours of going from dungeon to dungeon trying to find a group, those aren't really acceptable in today's gaming industry. It's no longer an accepted element of the game, it's a thing that constantly pisses you off. And when the exp then isn't even better, it's sort of hard to justify grouping. You'd have to just love grouping for the sake of grouping, despite the disadvantages that it tends to come with. Virtually all of EQ1's gear is tradeable, anyway.

Until grouping becomes substantially better exp than soloing, we'll see hordes of people playing necros, mages and druids, and we'll see ridiculous amounts of soloing. We can't change the fact that most of the players have grown older and live lives that make soloing more convenient than grouping, but if they want to solo, it should be for that reason; not because it's twice as fast as Guk.

That has got to be one of the top 10 posts I have ever read on any message board on any subject. You are bang on, on every point.

I wasn't a teenager in 1999 (I was 35) but now that I am married with a young child, there are definitely realities of what I can afford to invest in the game and whether or not I have room in my life for an excruciating CR :)

It would be great to group once in a while, that is why I chose an enchanter, but it will only be for the brief comraderie and variety of experience... and maybe one day to get to some difficult places I probably can't get to solo.

[Aetherial]

Well... my old main was a DE necro and yes, there is a certain amount of exaggeration happening here. :p

What I said about quad-kiting for wizzies was accurate, though.

Regarding necro pets... they aren't usually "un-buffed." We have our own pet buff spells (AC and haste buff), along with at least three different ways to heal the pet during combat.

I mentioned unbuffed because that would mean no mana required for buff refresh. I was trying to come up with a fastest-kill, most efficient scenario to make a point

even wizzie or druid quad kiting has down time, and do they kill 4 mobs every minute they are fighting? They would have to, at least!, to to net out at 2-3/ minute.

I can't think of a quad-kiting place with a fast enough respawn to go steady at 2/3 mobs / minute.

[Rasterburn]

I can't think of a quad-kiting place with a fast enough respawn to go steady at 2/3 mobs / minute.

Well, there's no such place for a full group to pull that fast, either. Even a godly group is gonna end up clearing the place and then you gotta wait for re-pops.

Everybody has downtime, whether it be a group or solo. Same for everybody, in that regard.

Cobalt Scar was a great place for quads, mainly because the respawn timer on the mobs roughly coincided with your downtime if you had a brain buff. When I hunted there, and assuming that I wasn't competing with a bunch of druids for pulls (grrr), I could usually just keep pulling a new quad every five or ten minutes. Or to be more accurate, I could usually do two quads back-to-back, then med up for about ten minutes, and then run out and pull another two quads. And by the time I finished medding up after that, the first two groups of wyverns had re-popped. So really, the only major factor in the entire deal was downtime for medding... which as I say, would be an equal factor whether you solo'ed or grouped.

[Aetherial]

This. It's not that hard.

Edit: and 30 mobs in 5 minutes is rediculous. absolutely ludicrous. any group would blaze past any soloer.

I cannot think of a zone where you could do 30, level appropriate, solo pulls in 5 minutes, *maybe* W. Freeport doing snakes/rats/bats.

The zones just don't have that many Mobs in a relatively compact area.

[Rasterburn]

Exactly right. There isn't any such place to keep pulling at that rate... not in the old world. Now, if we were all level 16-ish and if this were the Luclin era, then I'd say that a group is definitely gonna be faster than soloing if you head into a zone like Paludal Caverns. Lots of mobs and fairly fast respawn rate. Huge XP bonus, too.

Everywhere else... no, not possible. You can clear it fast, sure. But after that, you'll be sitting there waiting for re-pops. Meanwhile, a solo player doesn't have to worry about that factor, since he or she will be pulling the mobs in a cycle and the first mobs pulled will likely re-pop by the time the last mobs have been killed.

[Aetherial]

The most reliable mid-40s solo camp for a Mage is spectres in Oasis, I think. The five ground-level spawns can be cleared before repops, consuming sufficiently little mana to keep this cycle going indefinitely.

I don't know how long the respawns are, but 9-11 minutes feels right.

Reasonably speaking, a Mage requires about 2-3 minutes of meditating to regenerate enough mana to come out ahead relative to what is required for the next pull, rebuffs, etc.

In other words: in the 2-3 minutes it takes for a Mage to kill one mob and prepare for the next--that is, real grinding, not simply draining your mana bar to kill as quickly as possible--a group could easily bring in 2-3% exp. I did it tonight at BNB myself.

Ceteris paribus, grouping is faster.

No no no there MUST be some other way, you only have 5 Mobs every 9-11 minutes. You need to be able to find a place where you can do 2-3, level appropriate MOBS / Minute steadily.

Thank you for making my point... some kill rate claims for groups AND for solo'ers are just ridiculous here.

[Aetherial]

Oh - In Velious - Rangers rival necros in solo efficiency when fighting animals (snare+Animal fear+beatdown).

Reality fear-kiting as a ranger is not like you described.

I did do that. I was nowhere near the efficiency of a necro, not to mention the fact that I had to find qualifying animals.

The reality... fear breaks, or is resisted or you are interrupted. In each of these cases the MOB gets a few seconds to beat on you. You lose health, as a ranger I can tell you that you last marginally longer than a cloth class. That means you need to self-heal, our heals were bad, our mana pool was tiny... which also means you need to med. Even if I never got hit, our mana pool was so small that self-buffs and fear, snare spell casts meant I had to med every handful of MOBS.

Also, even in very good gear at the time, I am not killing any animal worth decent exp too quickly. You still have to hunt blues. Reds and yellows will resist fear too many times.

[Aetherial]

Well, there's no such place for a full group to pull that fast, either. Even a godly group is gonna end up clearing the place and then you gotta wait for re-pops.

Everybody has downtime, whether it be a group or solo. Same for everybody, in that regard.

Cobalt Scar was a great place for quads, mainly because the respawn timer on the mobs roughly coincided with your downtime if you had a brain buff. When I hunted there, and assuming that I wasn't competing with a bunch of druids for pulls (grrr), I could usually just keep pulling a new quad every five or ten minutes. Or to be more accurate, I could usually do two quads back-to-back, then med up for about ten minutes, and then run out and pull another two quads. And by the time I finished medding up after that, the first two groups of wyverns had re-popped. So really, the only major factor in the entire deal was downtime for medding... which as I say, would be an equal factor whether you solo'ed or grouped.

I do not believe this. In a balanced group, depending on the relative strength of what you are hunting, you can med up during fights, or sit one out, or use minimal mana on the easier fights...

A group can go more steadily without much downtime, in the grindier zones.

That is not to say they exp faster. I believe certain classes exp faster solo. The one HUGE advantage is not waiting on a group, waiting for people to be ready in a group, waiting on AFK for biobreaks, or waiting on a replacement healer/slower/tank which are necessary in some areas...

[Tallenn]

There are other reasons that soloing > grouping than just no experience bonus.

One of them is the extreme over crowding in places where 40-50s group- which is just Sol B and L Guk; because face it, nobody goes to Kedge or Perma to level 40-50. When there are that many people in those two zones, two things will happen: First, most groups will be sitting and waiting for pops more often than they are fighting, and second, when one group has a pull they can't handle, it's virtually guaranteed to wipe not just that group, but others as well.

The other one is that some people that play this game just plain suck at it. You have tanks that can't hold agro, healers that watch TV or surf the web, DPS that attack the wrong (i.e. mezzed) targets, snarers that forget to snare until the mob starts running, and all sorts of other crappy behavior happening every day in dungeon groups. When you solo, the only person that can get you killed is you, and the only person you can kill is you (notwithstanding jerks that train over other people. I know that I NEVER die while soloing unless my client crashes mid-fight. Apparently the AI isn't smart enough to figure out that a 40 druid doesn't do so well meleeing against a 35 giant. But that's ok; I accept that risk, because it's still FAR less risky than getting into most groups.

The biggest problem with soloing 40-50 right now is lack of targets. But the fact is, groups face the same issue, so grouping wouldn't solve that. After all, it's not like there are camps in Sol B and L Guk that are going empty because nobody wants to group, is it? Even with all the crying about how much better it is to solo than group, there doesn't seem to be any lack of groups in those dungeons.

The problem isn't solo vs group, IMO. The problem is lack of content for the 35+ crowd. There just isn't enough content for this many people leveling in the higher levels. I don't know if this was a problem in classic, because Kunark had already been out a couple of months by the time I got my first character to 35, but it's definitely a problem here.

[Weekapaug]

It was. But way more crowded. Was one of the problems with the old world, really. You spent a lot of time on lists for groups just for exp.

Kunark fixes that for the most part.

[Messianic]

Those zones would get you from 30 to 51... and then it was time to head off to the Cobalt Scar gravy train. :D

So where do Wizards do their uber-soloing from 1-50 pre-Luclin? =P

[Shiftin]

I love to group. As a rogue, it's pretty much required barring a fungi tunic or rubi BP and dual SBDs at 28.

The problem is the lack of places or actual grouping opportunities once you hit 20 and before you get to the 30s. I spent 6 hours basically LFG yesterday with 15 minutes in a group that broke up shortly after I arrived.

I spent my teens in oasis and had many an awesome group at orcs and crocs. There were some morons but those of us who had prior experience with the game gently corrected them and they either got better or were asked to find another group.

What i did notice in visiting UGuk, Highkeep, Unrest and Mistmoore in my attempts to find a group yesterday was that the server is camped to #@$() with people powerleveling. I zone in, get excited because there are 20 or so people in the zone, only to realize 5 of them are level 40+ powerleveling 1 or 2 other people and even when others of my level zone in LFG there's no place for us to camp.

I'm hoping this was some sort of anomaly with the bonus exp weekend because it's terribly frustrating.

[Aetherial]

The problem isn't solo vs group, IMO. The problem is lack of content for the 35+ crowd. There just isn't enough content for this many people leveling in the higher levels. I don't know if this was a problem in classic, because Kunark had already been out a couple of months by the time I got my first character to 35, but it's definitely a problem here.

A comment from one of the Devs back in the day was that he could walk naked solo through SolB or Lower Guk and never die... the idea was that there was basically 2 viable end-zones (pre Kunark) and Mobs died within seconds of popping, pretty much 24/7.

[Aetherial]

I love to group. As a rogue, it's pretty much required barring a fungi tunic or rubi BP and dual SBDs at 28.

The problem is the lack of places or actual grouping opportunities once you hit 20 and before you get to the 30s. I spent 6 hours basically LFG yesterday with 15 minutes in a group that broke up shortly after I arrived.

I spent my teens in oasis and had many an awesome group at orcs and crocs. There were some morons but those of us who had prior experience with the game gently corrected them and they either got better or were asked to find another group.

What i did notice in visiting UGuk, Highkeep, Unrest and Mistmoore in my attempts to find a group yesterday was that the server is camped to #@$() with people powerleveling. I zone in, get excited because there are 20 or so people in the zone, only to realize 5 of them are level 40+ powerleveling 1 or 2 other people and even when others of my level zone in LFG there's no place for us to camp.

I'm hoping this was some sort of anomaly with the bonus exp weekend because it's terribly frustrating.

sadly, I was suspicious of the viability of a primarily group-dependent character and had to eliminate Rogue for this very reason.

[Rasterburn]

So where do Wizards do their uber-soloing from 1-50 pre-Luclin? =P

I said where. Several of the Velious zones are excellent. Also a few zones on Kunark, but the XP is kind of crappy there in comparison.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

When I was leveling my mage, I used to group with pretty much the same people from 30+, guys that really knew what they were doing. The group exp blew away what I could do solo, even 40+ (hell, especially 40+). Sometimes none of our crew would be on and I'd solo at the best exp spot in the game and be sad at the slow exp rate compared to our normal group.

RIP Emo Kids.

tldr: group exp is fine, find good players that can hold those tough camps.

But have you done it recently? It was with the group exp change (where exp was pooled then redistributed, instead of everyone getting solo exp together) that soloing REALLY started to pass grouping in exp rate.

[Arclanz]

sad but true. Group xp sux. Group loot also sux. Every group has one or more loot whore(s). Oh, and most of the times I've died on this server were due to grouping.

See Yaeger's posts on page 8. This server should implement the 2003 group-xp patch.

[Locker]

Grouping for me is why I enjoy EQ - sometimes even horrible PUGs are fun in weird, random ways that result in negative xp. When everything goes well, grouping is amazing fun.

But yah, no question - solo classes have it easier in that they have they option to group OR solo.

Tork mom, camped!

(Sorry old nameless joke...)

[RKromwell]

Reality fear-kiting as a ranger is not like you described.

I did do that. I was nowhere near the efficiency of a necro, not to mention the fact that I had to find qualifying animals.

The reality... fear breaks, or is resisted or you are interrupted. In each of these cases the MOB gets a few seconds to beat on you. You lose health, as a ranger I can tell you that you last marginally longer than a cloth class. That means you need to self-heal, our heals were bad, our mana pool was tiny... which also means you need to med. Even if I never got hit, our mana pool was so small that self-buffs and fear, snare spell casts meant I had to med every handful of MOBS.

Also, even in very good gear at the time, I am not killing any animal worth decent exp too quickly. You still have to hunt blues. Reds and yellows will resist fear too many times.

This times 100.

I spent a lot of time in Eastern Wastes because I could solo there. That being said I would have to stay near the bridge to Ice Clad and pray I didn't get a lot of resist. I also couldn't do it on my own, I had to have crack or KEI to do so. Can Rangers solo, sure. Most would rather have a group though.

[minhjn]

I love to group. As a rogue, it's pretty much required barring a fungi tunic or rubi BP and dual SBDs at 28.

The problem is the lack of places or actual grouping opportunities once you hit 20 and before you get to the 30s. I spent 6 hours basically LFG yesterday with 15 minutes in a group that broke up shortly after I arrived.

I spent my teens in oasis and had many an awesome group at orcs and crocs. There were some morons but those of us who had prior experience with the game gently corrected them and they either got better or were asked to find another group.

What i did notice in visiting UGuk, Highkeep, Unrest and Mistmoore in my attempts to find a group yesterday was that the server is camped to #@$() with people powerleveling. I zone in, get excited because there are 20 or so people in the zone, only to realize 5 of them are level 40+ powerleveling 1 or 2 other people and even when others of my level zone in LFG there's no place for us to camp.

I'm hoping this was some sort of anomaly with the bonus exp weekend because it's terribly frustrating.

i agree with all of this

[Cyph]

I love to group. As a rogue, it's pretty much required barring a fungi tunic or rubi BP and dual SBDs at 28.

The problem is the lack of places or actual grouping opportunities once you hit 20 and before you get to the 30s. I spent 6 hours basically LFG yesterday with 15 minutes in a group that broke up shortly after I arrived.

I spent my teens in oasis and had many an awesome group at orcs and crocs. There were some morons but those of us who had prior experience with the game gently corrected them and they either got better or were asked to find another group.

What i did notice in visiting UGuk, Highkeep, Unrest and Mistmoore in my attempts to find a group yesterday was that the server is camped to #@$() with people powerleveling. I zone in, get excited because there are 20 or so people in the zone, only to realize 5 of them are level 40+ powerleveling 1 or 2 other people and even when others of my level zone in LFG there's no place for us to camp.

I'm hoping this was some sort of anomaly with the bonus exp weekend because it's terribly frustrating.

Is this kind of behaviour against the rules? I would hope so.

[azeth]

Is this kind of behaviour against the rules? I would hope so.

power leveling?

[Shiftin]

i agree with all of this

Thanks Rhezzin. Always nice playing with you.

Is this kind of behaviour against the rules? I would hope so.

No, it isn't, as long as the players are being played independently by two separate people. It's terribly difficult to prove that they aren't as an outside observer, but I have been sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that boxing powerleveling was happening on several occasions and petitioned the players.


Last night I managed to luck into a mistmoore yard trash group. There was a list to get into the group that I waited about 30 minutes on, and we constantly had people asking to be added to the list.

These people could have made their own group and one of us moved to graveyard but an orge SK was being powerleveled there and they were taking so many mobs that they started pulling from tunnel and tunnel entrance trash, so there were barely enough for us to kill most of the time.

[HippoNipple]

^^^

I hate power levelers for that reason - probably just because I'm jealous and have never been power leveled, except the random buff when a high level runs by.

[Aetherial]

^^^

I hate power levelers for that reason - probably just because I'm jealous and have never been power leveled, except the random buff when a high level runs by.

No, it isn't just because you haven't been PL'd.

I just don't people taking over campes from entire group(s) of people just to help their "friend" ;) There are only so many level approproate zones and it is not like you can go to the higher (death) or lower (no exp) zone ranges.

[HippoNipple]

No, it isn't just because you haven't been PL'd.

I just don't people taking over campes from entire group(s) of people just to help their "friend" ;) There are only so many level approproate zones and it is not like you can go to the higher (death) or lower (no exp) zone ranges.

Thank you sir now I know why I hate them!

[Seeatee]

to get from 1 - 50 as fast as absolutely possible with as little hassle as possible yes soloing is probably fastest.

however it is my opinion that it completely bypasses the whole point of playing EQ, and 80% of the awesome content.

last night me and my regular group went to sol a, it was a rocking group, we talked, had fun, got decent exp, at about midnight right before we were going to log , we decide to try and pull 2 gnome bots, we got a few adds including singe, things went south fast, and we all died, I was bound in oogok, and the rest in FP or lavastorm, a handful of see invis mobs popped between us and our corpses, the CR was a nightmare and took an hour , keeping everyone up past their bed time who had work the next morning.

THAT is what EQ is all about, hard as nails, balls deep in trouble, no win situation, and coming together and working as a team to accomplish something that you shouldn't be able to accomplish otherwise.

sure I lost some exp, sure at the time we were all pulling our hair out, but that is also probably the most fun, and the most truly classic experience I have had so far on this server, you just don't get to experience awesome shit like that soloing.

:cool:

[Troy]

Thanks Rhezzin. Always nice playing with you.



No, it isn't, as long as the players are being played independently by two separate people. It's terribly difficult to prove that they aren't as an outside observer, but I have been sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that boxing powerleveling was happening on several occasions and petitioned the players.


Last night I managed to luck into a mistmoore yard trash group. There was a list to get into the group that I waited about 30 minutes on, and we constantly had people asking to be added to the list.

These people could have made their own group and one of us moved to graveyard but an orge SK was being powerleveled there and they were taking so many mobs that they started pulling from tunnel and tunnel entrance trash, so there were barely enough for us to kill most of the time.

Funny thing? I was the group leader, played for roughly 24 hours straight in MM clearing yard trash and the Ogre was the nicest PL'er we ran into. There was another one (ahem Divinity - PL'ing a MAGE!? WTF?) that just came in and started pulling from our camp and anything else they could find in the zone. I really wanted to just quit the game at that point but after a few hours the mage outleveled me and they left. I was getting extremely bitchy at the time though: I've had 6 people at a camp for 18 hours and some clown thinks he can just come in and take mobs from it without even asking because they've been up for 10 seconds?

On the plus side, the people in my group seem to be getting smarter as I level up. I only died once during these 24 hours from people focusing DPS on the rootparked melee add instead of the caster nuking me to death! :cool:

Maybe when I get to 40 or so there will be no more PL'ers in the way of actual groups?

[Troy]

Also, for those looking to compare group vs. solo XP: I played for 24 hours in MM with a good ZEM and was chain pulling for at least 20 hours of that. In that time I gained 5 levels (23-28). This is as an uber-twink wielding Dragon Claws + EBW + FBSS, but in a full group the whole time.

My mage, completely untwinked, went from 22 to 29 solo at SK centaurs in ~10 hours with no ZEM and no group bonus and not chain pulling anything.

[Arclanz]

Troy go post that on the group xp thread thingie :P

[Enderenter]

I don't think there's that big of a discrepancy between solo and group xp, there are just several factors that often cause group xp to be worse if you are a player who knows what you are doing:

1. What I like to call "Lowest Common Denominator" syndrome. The players in the group all play as lazily/poorly as the worst player in the group, because they don't want to carry the group or just don't care.
2. Waiting in line for groups when most dungeons are full. (far less convenient to wait 30 minutes to an hour to find a group than to just start killing stuff on your own)

However, group xp's downside (vs solo) is somewhat mitigated by the following negative factors:

1. Good solo spots are almost always taken at 40+, (Oasis/Feerott/OoT Specs, HGs etc) and often don't open up for many, many hours.
2. Most classes in classic, no matter how twinked, cannot solo efficiently past level 30.

Ultimately, I agree with Reiker on the point of solo vs. group (assuming all players involved are reasonably skilled, knowledgeable, or just able to follow simple instructions) being convenience vs efficiency. Obviously, some classes in classic are just ridiculously good at soloing for xp, (Mage, Necro, Chanter etc) and some classes are just ridiculously bad at it (Rogue, Warrior). But even in the case of Mages, (who are by all accounts incredibly overpowered at solo on P99, far more than they were on classic) put 6 Mages in a group together, and if there are enough mobs to kill, the XP will be better than a solo mage.

[Shiftin]

Funny thing? I was the group leader, played for roughly 24 hours straight in MM clearing yard trash and the Ogre was the nicest PL'er we ran into. There was another one (ahem Divinity - PL'ing a MAGE!? WTF?) that just came in and started pulling from our camp and anything else they could find in the zone. I really wanted to just quit the game at that point but after a few hours the mage outleveled me and they left. I was getting extremely bitchy at the time though: I've had 6 people at a camp for 18 hours and some clown thinks he can just come in and take mobs from it without even asking because they've been up for 10 seconds?

On the plus side, the people in my group seem to be getting smarter as I level up. I only died once during these 24 hours from people focusing DPS on the rootparked melee add instead of the caster nuking me to death! :cool:

Maybe when I get to 40 or so there will be no more PL'ers in the way of actual groups?

Thanks for having me, it was a very well managed group in the 3 or 4 hours i was there. I didn't deal with the Ogre, I just remember you saying they were taking some of the pulls and us having some brief downtime because of it.

Congrats on all your levels, that's ridiculous for one day. I hope to see you around again.

[mjavor]

As a healer, I get frustrated with the loot rules or lack thereof. While I am sitting and medding to ensure we have the least amount of downtime possible, there was the one Ogre that kept looking everything in sight.
The very rare time I was ahead on mana and did get up to loot, the mob was ninja looted.

Then we got an uncommon drop, I rolled 96, the Ogre rolled 97.

Haven't grouped since, too frustrating. No loot problems when you solo. =)