Channeling is broken

[Dullah]

I assume this is affecting both servers, but something has been changed with channeling to allow a chance for a normal hit to guarantee interrupt. On live standing in a corner meant a mob/player had to bash you or get in the corner behind you to keep you from channeling.

I started noticing this powerleveling with a level 60 caster in low level zones when a mob would land a single <10 dmg hit on me and interrupt me. Its most obvious when standing in a tight corner, without levitate and being interrupted 3-4x in a row by mobs that can barely damage me.

Its not right. Channeling afaik should be tied directly to how far you are from the place you were originally standing when you start casting a spell. The farther you were moved, the more susceptible you become to interrupts. The higher your channeling, the more you could be moved and still regain concentration.

[Daldaen]

This is correct. Channeling should do a check at beginning and end of casting and check the change in distance. Making corner tanking very viable since you can't move. Forcing a bash to interrupt.

On this server though melee hits are interrupting when in a corner. Ill try to pull some evidence from old guides on channeling in a bit.

[Haynar]

Red has some code in there that melee hits contribute to interrupts. It does not look like player melee against player is doing actual push.

Blue and red are doing stuff different for channeling.

H

[Mac Drettj]

noticed people regaining concentration from bashes yesterday also

this broke a patch or two ago and was fixed I believe, might have undone

[Dullah]

Ya melee is supposed to push, not just randomly interrupt. Should be the same for pvp and pve.

Right now both standing in corner tanking mobs/players and starting a spell in a corner and running around with a player hitting you and running back (corner casting) will still mean you get interrupted. Both of those scenarios should be a guaranteed cast permitted you don't get stunned.

[Mac Drettj]

Ya melee is supposed to push, not just randomly interrupt. Should be the same for pvp and pve.

Right now both standing in corner tanking mobs/players and starting a spell in a corner and running around with a player hitting you and running back (corner casting) will still mean you get interrupted. Both of those scenarios should be a guaranteed cast permitted you don't get stunned.

agreed

[Haynar]

I know how push is coded for mobs on pc. It may not be there for pc on pc. Since i wrote the push code, i dont remember adding for player vs player.

Will look at bash, since i am one who keeps breaking it.

H

[Colgate]

melee push in pvp 100% works btw

[Zalaerian]

melee push in pvp 100% works btw

Yes. Have raptured and locked down players to zero movement and melee push has caused them to zone

[Technique]

Apparently a bug appeared at some point following the introduction of channeling AAs causing them to actually decrease channeling chance, which was fixed in this patch:
June 13, 2006

Corrected a problem with channeling that was causing you to channel through damage (not bash, kick, stun, or movement) 100% of the time if you didn't have any channeling AAs. Interrupts from damage are now back to working how they did previously and your chance to channel through damage is based on your channeling skill.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20060613.htmlFollowing are comments on channeling by lead designer Rashere post-patch:
Let me see if I can clear it up. Answers to your questions below. trop78 wrote:
Change alway confuses me. Let me see if I understand this then.
If I get kicked and no movement take place by an even con mob your saying that I have some flat chance at interupt and no channeling check take place?



For the purposes of channeling, kick is basically a bash. It just has a flat (high) chance to interrupt casting. Channeling doesn't get used when kicked. No change here.


If I get bashed and no movement takes place by an even con mob I have a chance to get stunned and if I am not stuned then I get interupted?



If you get bashed, your casting is basically interrupted at that point unless you're an Ogre (which are immune to bash). A bash that doesn't stun has a flat chance (a very high one) to interrupt spell casting. Channeling isn't used at all for a bash. You may also get stunned by a bash, which strangely enough can actually be beneficial for continuing to cast spells since stun resist gear will make the stun fail, but a non-stunning bash can't be mitigated. Again, this is unchanged from how it has worked in the past.


If I get hit by bash/kick and I am not stuned/interupted by the bash/kick I still have to make an interupted check based on the damage/movement?



If you get bashed, whether you are stunned or not, you're probably going to be interrupted. Channeling does nothing on a bash. It's a straight chance to interrupt even if it doesn't stun you. No change here.


If I get hit by a normal swing and no movement take place then I make a channeling check to see if I am interputed.



This is where the bug was. Before the patch, you always succeeded in your channeling check if you didn't have any channeling AAs. Now its back to working how it used to, which is based on your skill, but caps at 90%. One thing to note here is that your chance to channel is better if you are casting spells lower level than yourself, which is generally when you'd hit that cap. This is just going back to the way things were before the bug was introduced, not changing the system to something else.


If I get hit by a normal swing and movement takes place I have to make 2 channeling checks one for the hit and one for the movement it generates?



Not quite. If you move more than what is allowed, you just fail the cast. No channeling check takes place there. Moving too much during the casting process simply interrupts your spell unless you're a bard. If you didn't move far enough for it to matter, then you'd make the channeling roll to see if you continue casting. Again, no change here.


Not totally sure I understand the change, I kind of knew what it use to do before this fix anyway.



The only difference from now to before the patch is that your channeling roll no longer automatically succeeds if you don't have any channeling AAs, but instead works as it did previously and your chance to channel is based on your skill. It's basically just back to the way it was before the bug was introduced.


I also have another question each hit generates a channeling check so if a mob quads on me and hits me 4 times. I know make 4 channeling check vs each hit and a channeling check vs the movement they generated? So my chance of passing any one check is 90%, but the chance of passing all 4 is what 64% or something. Going to be hard to channel spell if 2 or 3 mobs hit you that for sure.



Correct, for each hit you take, you make the roll. The more you're getting hit, the harder it is to continue casting a spell. Nothing changed here either except that your channeling check no longer automatically succeeds.


Does the cap of 90% apply to green mobs also, if I have 4 or 5 level 40 mob hitting my level 70 chanter your almost saying I have no chance to cast on them.



The only way that the level of the NPC hitting you gets factored in is that lower con NPCs have a harder time hitting you in the first place. But if you take damage while casting a spell, you have to make a channeling roll to continue casting regardless of what it was that hit you. At that point, it doesn't care where the damage came from. The only "level" that factors into the equation at all is a bonus that gets applied if you are casting spells whose required level to cast them is lower than what you are currently. This is how the system was originally built.

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20061011111439/http:/eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=239994&view=by_date_ascending&page=3

Also, a comment on the movement threshold below which it was still possible to channel a spell:
Redi_Wolf wrote:
I also trust Prathun's description of movement interrupts; I'm surprised, though, because it's inconsistent with my anecdotal experience of a more probabilistic thing. That is, he says it's "X distance = interrupt," whereas my experience has seemed... softer. You move a little, maybe you get interrupted, maybe not. You move a lot, odds are, interrupt. You run in a big circle and come right back, and if you're close enough, you just might channel. How big is X distance, anyway?

You're right. I just took another look at it and there is some wiggle room in there. If you move more than a few inches, but less than what it takes to automatically break the spell (which is about 1 foot), you get a channeling check to keep the spell. So to answer the other person's question, if you moved a little, but not enough to automatically lose the spell, and got hit at the same time, that would be two channeling checks you'd have to succeed to keep the spell. That'd be why sticking your back up against a wall helps you get spells off easier.

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20061011111439/http:/eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=239994&view=by_date_ascending&page=3

[Haynar]

In a corner, you only got interrupted by stun, kick or bash.

So damage/normal hits does not make sense to apply if u didnt move.

[Dullah]

Ya, pretty sure those interrupts from non-movement hits was a change that came after velious.

Only thing I can say for sure, is standing in a corner getting chain interrupted casting 3 sec or faster spells isn't right, and thats how its currently working. I shouldn't be able to kill a cleric on a melee if he is in a corner casting Remedy. Not until he's oom at least.

[Mac Drettj]

One experience specifically:

I'v been in a corner on my 60 cleric with one 60 monk using epic fists only chain interrupting remedy /celestial

[Dullah]

Channeling works by loc and skill combined. If you end up in the same spot at the end of cast as the beginning, you will cast through it. So the corner is your friend! Try this. Say, above Kaesora in FOB, go to corner, cast CH, run around building back to corner, and spell will hit! This does not prevent interrupts due to bashes or stuns.

http://www.paullynch.org/eqblog/?p=30

[Nirgon]

http://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html

Learn how to avoid interruption. One of the most frustrating things that can happen is being continually interrupted until everything wakes up and your group dies. Two factors affect interrupts: damage taken and total distance moved. Rune and Berserk spells will help prevent interrupts due to damage taken. Most of the time, however, creatures interrupt your spell casting by pushing you around. If a creature pushes you backwards, try to take a tiny step forward to counter the motion. If many creatures are hitting you at once, try spinning in place; this sends constant motion requests to the server and helps maintain your position.

[Mac Drettj]

interdasting

[Dullah]

Learn how to avoid interruption. One of the most frustrating things that can happen is being continually interrupted until everything wakes up and your group dies. Two factors affect interrupts: damage taken and total distance moved. Rune and Berserk spells will help prevent interrupts due to damage taken. Most of the time, however, creatures interrupt your spell casting by pushing you around. If a creature pushes you backwards, try to take a tiny step forward to counter the motion. If many creatures are hitting you at once, try spinning in place; this sends constant motion requests to the server and helps maintain your position.
http://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html


Well, we do know at some point channeling did have something to do with just getting hit, not just the push related to getting hit, but this person doesn't seem to understand the mechanics here.

Rune and berserk spells will help prevent interrupts due to damage taken

No, rune and berserk prevent damage, thus preventing push. You're not supposed to be able to interrupt a runed caster without bash/stun because you can't push them.

Just to note, this page is a post 2002 era (see bottom).

[Nirgon]

From Technique's post:


The only "level" that factors into the equation at all is a bonus that gets applied if you are casting spells whose required level to cast them is lower than what you are currently


Wonder if there is more to casting spells where the required spell level is much lower than the character level.

Perhaps lower resist rate applied to lower level spells too? Would explain why shock of lightning/chaotic feedback wasn't resisted in pvp and things like voltaic draught had major problems.

Just my 2cp.

[Mac Drettj]

Meaning a lvl 8 spell has a better chance of landing AND successfully channeling versus say a level 40 spell of the same type?

[compulsion]

Not contributing any "classic" input since r99 is only remotely classic, but as far as server history goes...

During red beta, you could literally channel through 50+ hits nearly every time. If you remember all of Lovely's screenshots of channeling ice comets through 2+ mobs and melee damage, etc. As a fix, we got the custom code where it was 5%(?) less chance to channel per melee hit, and the channeling chances were really good through classic and early Kunark.

The better haste and better weapons for melees later in Kunark really compounded the melee hit ratio problem, and the flat 5% could probably have been adjusted down slightly to keep balance, except...

Some months ago there was some sort of adjustment made to channeling chances for both servers, and I believe that it compounded with reds custom code to significantly decrease our channeling rates. Casting root with a level 55 I was getting interrupted 50% of the time from 2-3 melee hits. I was interrupted very often by only 1 hit, and if I took more, 5-7, I would almost never channel.

If the old code was a flat 90% chance to channel, no matter how many hits were taken like it seemed to be in red beta, and it was dropped to a flat 60% chance(or calculations were adjusted to put it in a similar range), our chances on red would be ~45% after 3 hits currently, where it used to be ~75%. When you consider that melees on red hit 90% or more of the time, your odds of channeling a 3-4.5 second spell are low to non existent.

As an example, a few weeks ago when I was running around on a 56 epic rogue and found a solo cleric(epic'd and near full EM), he only channeled 1 of 3 remedies and died when my backstab recycled. Similarly on a druid, I ran to a corner with DS up to out heal the damage of a dual wielding ranger and instead had to zone and cheetah since I couldn't channel even 1 sup heal. As someone who usually mains a caster, having played that rogue, I have absolutely zero desire to play a(higher level and better geared) caster for PvP.

[Nirgon]

Meaning a lvl 8 spell has a better chance of landing AND successfully channeling versus say a level 40 spell of the same type?

Landing yes, channeling not sure.

No idea where I'd even be able to find evidence for that... but its the only thing I can come up with that explains why.

Chance to channel a spell in pvp is brutally close to classic, maybe a little too much on the chance to interrupt side but... its dayum close.

[Smedy]

Not contributing any "classic" input since r99 is only remotely classic, but as far as server history goes...

During red beta, you could literally channel through 50+ hits nearly every time. If you remember all of Lovely's screenshots of channeling ice comets through 2+ mobs and melee damage, etc. As a fix, we got the custom code where it was 5%(?) less chance to channel per melee hit, and the channeling chances were really good through classic and early Kunark.

The better haste and better weapons for melees later in Kunark really compounded the melee hit ratio problem, and the flat 5% could probably have been adjusted down slightly to keep balance, except...

Some months ago there was some sort of adjustment made to channeling chances for both servers, and I believe that it compounded with reds custom code to significantly decrease our channeling rates. Casting root with a level 55 I was getting interrupted 50% of the time from 2-3 melee hits. I was interrupted very often by only 1 hit, and if I took more, 5-7, I would almost never channel.

If the old code was a flat 90% chance to channel, no matter how many hits were taken like it seemed to be in red beta, and it was dropped to a flat 60% chance(or calculations were adjusted to put it in a similar range), our chances on red would be ~45% after 3 hits currently, where it used to be ~75%. When you consider that melees on red hit 90% or more of the time, your odds of channeling a 3-4.5 second spell are low to non existent.

As an example, a few weeks ago when I was running around on a 56 epic rogue and found a solo cleric(epic'd and near full EM), he only channeled 1 of 3 remedies and died when my backstab recycled. Similarly on a druid, I ran to a corner with DS up to out heal the damage of a dual wielding ranger and instead had to zone and cheetah since I couldn't channel even 1 sup heal. As someone who usually mains a caster, having played that rogue, I have absolutely zero desire to play a(higher level and better geared) caster for PvP.

yep that's exactly it, the 5% needs to be removed, it was a quick fix early on but right now it's more or less fucking casters hard who are already gonna have a struggle vs the gear coming in velious.

[compulsion]

Chance to channel a spell in pvp is brutally close to classic, maybe a little too much on the chance to interrupt side but... its dayum close.

Not even remotely close. On live I could rely on gate channeling even if I got caught by a rogue or monk. On here I have to juke and dodge just to channel one against a Paladin. On live I never had a problem keeping my shaman up with sheal; overall geared shaman and clerics were tough as hell to bring down. On here they can be pushed defensive or locked down by a single melee and YT'd in a few seconds when they get trained.

The differences are the most obvious in PvE, where stuff that I camped easily on live can be really tricky on here when one mob does 60% of my health when 1-2 melee hits interrupts 2-3 root attempts in a row.

There is a reason that monks, rogues, and warriors are wildly over represented on this server while guilds have to search for active wizards and druids(the top killers on SZ). Velious is only going to make this worse.

[Burgerking]

Red has some code in there that melee hits contribute to interrupts. It does not look like player melee against player is doing actual push.

Blue and red are doing stuff different for channeling.

H

This is actually two separate issues.

Stun and regains

and

Melee pushback.

Here the problem with stun is that it is allowing a player to regain if the casting spell is longer than the stun duration.

For Example:

I cast a five second spell, you bash 1 second into the spell, I'm stunned for 2 seconds but the spell still can regain because the casting bar is still going.

Once stunned you should never regain the spell you are casting.

As for melee pushback it seems to be set far to high here than it was on live. Like 75% higher than it was on live. To the same effect spell pushback is set far too low and regains are almost at 95%. On live spells with pushback like shock of lightning, poison dots, etc were much much more reliable in interrupting casting. Also when a player is rooted they cannot be pushbacked. Here you can still be pushed while rooted. I remember people used to buy bark potions to channel gates for the root effect.

Dullah is also correct in the fact that there is something in melee attacks that seems to be interrupting even when you're position doesn't change. This can easily be tested by first fixing root. Root should lock you in your location and you shouldn't move at all. Once that is fixed you can test melee pushback interrupting casting, if it does something is off.

[derpcake]

Given the high hit rates for melee classes and the extremely large hitboxes R99 has, it seems logical that channeling is better then on classic also.

[derpcake]

yep that's exactly it, the 5% needs to be removed, it was a quick fix early on but right now it's more or less fucking casters hard who are already gonna have a struggle vs the gear coming in velious.

Have to agree.

Situation being what it is, when BD gear comes out, casters are going to be worthless when it comes to doing damage in pvp. People sitting on stacks of blue diamonds isn't going to help that either.