Class XP Penalties

[bspa0700]

I know it has been discussed before, but one point that I never see brought up is this.

Yes, class and racial xp penalties are classic, and so is sharing them with the group. However, the playerbase knowing about it while in effect is not. Nobody was ever shunned from a group in classic because nobody knew the mechanic existed. And once it was removed, obviously it was fine then too.

I'm just curious on the thought of removing the mechanic in P99. It seems like many classes have an unnecessarily hard time getting groups, just in the name of a mechanic that nobody ever knew existed during this era of EQ. Re-living it without the knowledge isn't an option, so why relive it at all?

Just curious as other's thoughts.

Thanks.

[Ciroco]

Actually I'm pretty sure people knew about racial exp penalties, but I agree that I never got the comments about being an exp-hogging hybrid.

[Bboboo]

Class experience penalties will be removed in Velious. The worst exp penalty will be at 20% for the master race and Trolls, 15% for Ogres and 5% for Barbarians.

[bspa0700]

Actually I'm pretty sure people knew about racial exp penalties, but I agree that I never got the comments about being an exp-hogging hybrid.

It was known that the race/class penalties existed. It was not known that this penalty was shared with the group.

[Clark]

Buddy and I rolled ranger and bard on live early 2000. We thought everyone got the same xp rate as us for least a year I bet. Good times. :)

[drelk001]

lol, my fiancee and I made D&D type toons, we only played on certain days and only played with each other. well, when we had gotten to about level 9, she started yelling at me because I was playing without her.... I was level 11, she was level 9. I was a magician, she was a ranger :) itwas awesome

[Daywolf]

I never had an issue with it on live, played my ranger all the way up and 90% in groups, not pugs but friends/guildies always insisting I join their groups. I have a ranger here, but past lvl18 I've mainly soloed (by choice), and have only gone into a dungeon /w or w/o a group for a no-drop item etc. I still don't read that bit on the wiki game mechanics page, but people seem to insist it's there... somewhere, about gimping the group or whatever. But if you are out in the wild, you're better off with a ranger, and probably better exp than being with some other class five or ten levels above you... especially when I'm spanking all the best mobs in the zone before you even realize :D

[Swish]

Class experience penalties will be removed in Velious. The worst exp penalty will be at 20% for the master race and Trolls, 15% for Ogres and 5% for Barbarians.

Remember though pals it's not going to happen on Velious launch night, its patched in further along the timeline.

[khanable]

wasn't class xp penalty listed in the manual?

[Daywolf]

wasn't class xp penalty listed in the manual?

Self, not group. And the wiki states con to the highest lvl group member, mentioning no respect to race or class, just the con.

[kaev]

The class XP penalties and the "punish the group" method of implementation became fairly widely known not too long after Kunark release, due to testing published online at 3rd party sites. I remember quite clearly the rapid decline in availability of pickup groups for my paladin and ranger characters at the time. People were quite irrational about it, gimping their groups to kill half as fast ("cleric oom, med break") rather than include a paladin or sk tank.

[Swish]

People were quite irrational about it

To an extent people still are here :( I found switching from an iksar SK (now my tunnel mule) to a DE SK has helped me find groups more noticeably.

[Naprox]

The irrational part is that people think Velious will be released anytime in the foreseeable future.

What ever happened to enjoying the journey instead of racing to the finish line?

[Tecmos Deception]

Yes, class and racial xp penalties are classic ... Nobody was ever shunned from a group in classic because nobody knew the mechanic existed.

I bet few tanks were shunned from groups during Kunark because they tried to stack agility gear for leet-avoidance-ninja tanking either, because most people didn't know what a shitty idea it was at the time. But does that mean the staff should modify the code to make stacking agility a viable tanking method on p99? Of course not.

[myriverse]

The class XP penalties and the "punish the group" method of implementation became fairly widely known not too long after Kunark release, due to testing published online at 3rd party sites. I remember quite clearly the rapid decline in availability of pickup groups for my paladin and ranger characters at the time. People were quite irrational about it, gimping their groups to kill half as fast ("cleric oom, med break") rather than include a paladin or sk tank.
And people knew something was up way before that. There are posts on the EverQuest newsgroup going back to before Kunark (at least August 1999) that explain the effects on groups. It was quite known.

People just weren't so concerned with efficiency back then. We were more interested in having a good time with anybody.

[Fiyero]

What I find interesting here (and something that never really dawned on my until recently either) is that Iksar Monks have a 44% penalty (worse than any hybrid except certain SK races), yet Iksar monks don't generally get shunned from groups.

Obviously that's due to the perception that they're more worth the penalty than a Paladin, Ranger, or SK, but still an interesting point.

[Swish]

What I find interesting here (and something that never really dawned on my until recently either) is that Iksar Monks have a 44% penalty (worse than any hybrid except certain SK races), yet Iksar monks don't generally get shunned from groups.

Obviously that's due to the perception that they're more worth the penalty than a Paladin, Ranger, or SK, but still an interesting point.

In terms of a monk's group role (pulling etc), a ranger isn't a bad substitute at all.

There just needs to be more decent rangers around :p

[Rattle Squirrell]

Since Kunark was released here.....and the class xp penalty and all that was known and bitched about on live.......

Wasn't Velious released much faster than it is being released here? I mean if it was a year or whatever after kunark that people stopped having ex ppenalty on live. and we have to wait 12 years for velious here.....

sux

[Swish]

Wasn't Velious released much faster than it is being released here? I mean if it was a year or whatever after kunark that people stopped having ex ppenalty on live. and we have to wait 12 years for velious here.....

sux

ooooh....

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/apply-cold-water-to-the-burned-area.jpeg

[Rattle Squirrell]

ooooh....

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/apply-cold-water-to-the-burned-area.jpeg

Just saying man. March 25, 2011 Kunark says it was released here?

Velious was released on live a little more than 6 months after Kunark. We have waited for over 3 years.

You want "classic" xp penalty? Than take it away. They didn't wait that long on live.

[Swish]

Just saying man. March 25, 2011 Kunark says it was released here?

Velious was released on live a little more than 6 months after Kunark. We have waited for over 3 years.

You want "classic" xp penalty? Than take it away. They didn't wait that long on live.

True on all counts. I suppose the difference is Verant/SOE had a team of devs working full-time. P99 relies on the work of volunteers, and we're (generally) grateful for what they do.

There's always more than can be done to help beta test for it, if that floats your boat. If they shut down blue/red for a week they'd have a lot more people logging in to the beta to help. That's what I'd do, and in the long term everyone benefits.

[Tecmos Deception]

Taking bets on how long until nilbog shows up to tell rattle to stfu! :)

[Rattle Squirrell]

Taking bets on how long until nilbog shows up to tell rattle to stfu! :)

lol im not even saying it like that. Im just saying that everything falls back on these forums to most over-used word. "Classic."

XP penalties are CLASSIC no arguement there.

Having them for 4 years is not Classic.

Just sayin

[justin2090]

Velious is holding up the hybrid pen patch. It would of probably been best to subtract Velious from the classic timeline and release patches as per the timeline. Meaning that Hybrid penalties would of been done away with 2 years ago. Also, any Velious related items/mob nerfs would be on their on timeline.

Velious is a lot of work and I get that but it shouldn't hold up other stuff in the game. Especially hybrid penalties.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Velious is holding up the hybrid pen patch. It would of probably been best to subtract Velious from the classic timeline and release patches as per the timeline. Meaning that Hybrid penalties would of been done away with 2 years ago. Also, any Velious related items/mob nerfs would be on their on timeline.

Velious is a lot of work and I get that but it shouldn't hold up other stuff in the game. Especially hybrid penalties.

^^^^

[Daywolf]

Taking bets on how long until nilbog shows up to tell rattle to stfu! :)
Maybe, but this has no "classic" result seeing how few actually roll/play hybrids here. To say that is classic is not classic, since the result here is far from classic. Maybe the mechanic is correct, but the outcome is far from accurate making it not classic. I program and script, and I know that sometimes you need to get your head out of the numbers and just look at the results.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Maybe, but this has no "classic" result seeing how few actually roll/play hybrids here. To say that is classic is not classic, since the result here is far from classic. Maybe the mechanic is correct, but the outcome is far from accurate making it not classic. I program and script, and I know that sometimes you need to get your head out of the numbers and just look at the results.

yup

[sox7d]

BUT WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE

[Rattle Squirrell]

BUT WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE

4 years after the expansion released and no one plays hybrids. Grouping is severely limited to hybrids.....

Bards kite whole zones cuz it's impossible to get group and then you have flame wars on that too.....


What line are you speaking of?

[sox7d]

Devs are well aware of this issue and understand it completely. If you don't like their decision, make your own server.

[Tecmos Deception]

lol im not even saying it like that. Im just saying that everything falls back on these forums to most over-used word. "Classic."

XP penalties are CLASSIC no arguement there.

Having them for 4 years is not Classic.

Just sayin

Your "just sayin" is as cliche as Swish's baby goat headbutt classic gif.

Recreating "the classic experience" is impossible. That's why the staff aren't really trying to do that. They are giving us the classic mechanics and telling us to go to town (which was actually a pretty big part of the classic experience by itself).

If staff changed a classic mechanic to try to simulate an accurate timeline or to account for today's players every time someone like you wanted them to, p99 would suck.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Your "just sayin" is as cliche as Swish's baby goat headbutt classic gif.

Recreating "the classic experience" is impossible. That's why the staff aren't really trying to do that. They are giving us the classic mechanics and telling us to go to town (which was actually a pretty big part of the classic experience by itself).

If staff changed a classic mechanic to try to simulate an accurate timeline or to account for today's players every time someone like you wanted them to, p99 would suck.

I personally don't play a hybrid (other than bard, which I don't care about just a fun class).

This isn't a personal request.....and Im not asking them to change everything, everytime someone whines. Im just saying I do see a huge problem with the current grouping system when hybrids are involved, and a serious lack of hybrids due to the current xp set up.

I don't care IF they change it. Just saying it doesn't make alot of sense to me.

Just utilizing the forums to chat about stuff man. Not expecting them to come to my house and take notes on how I want the server ran.

[Daywolf]

What line are you speaking of?prolly the one he snorted :rolleyes:

The bright side is, I can get most ranger-only gear for pretty cheap right now :D apart from some very rare raid stuff anyway.
And even though there are few rangers around to buy my trueshot longbows, there are even less fletchers around (often usually rangers) so can still get a good price on those TS bows once they realize they cant find anyone else selling them. And still, ranger tracking is golden, beats my drui tracking by far, which makes for easy money collecting hides, even leveling tailoring. And with less rangers in the game, means less competition in outdoor zones.

So I have no BIG complaints, but still the result is far from classic even if the code is technically accurate. However, mostly the down side is I see no reason to roll any other hybrid on this server. Oh well, at least ranger is one of my fav classes so soloing is perfectly fine for me.

[Glenzig]

I don't know if I see a lack of hybrids on the server. I definitely see plenty of Iksar and Ogre sk's.

[Rangerdown]

The xp penalty is by far the least annoying part of playing hybrid. As a ranger, Of all the things I'd want to see changed, it doesnt even make the list.

[indiscriminate_hater]

you guys keep saying there are a "serious lack of hybrids" - do you have any numbers to back this up? try doing some /who all count queries at different times of day. i personally haven't noticed a noticeable difference in the amount of hybrid vs purebred toons.

i HAVE noticed that hybrid toons tend to be more twinked, but that makes sense, and isn't necessarily unclassic

[Daywolf]

I don't know if I see a lack of hybrids on the server. I definitely see plenty of Iksar and Ogre sk's.
http://wiki.project1999.com/Project1999:About
There are more SK's in the game compared to ranger and pally, but only a 2% dif. Still, hybrid is pretty much devastated on this server, between 4%-6% of pop. I played on tunare from launch, it was a running joke how many hybrids were in the game. They were everywhere. Tunare had a crazy amount of elf rangers for sure, since it was the tunare server and all. Classic.

[indiscriminate_hater]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Project1999:About
There are more SK's in the game compared to ranger and pally, but only a 2% dif. Still, hybrid is pretty much devastated on this server, between 4%-6% of pop. I played on tunare from launch, it was a running joke how many hybrids were in the game. They were everywhere. Tunare had a crazy amount of elf rangers for sure, since it was the tunare server and all. Classic.

keep in mind this probably shows all of the random level 1 characters people have on their accounts, including EC mules, lore corpses, etc.

edit: whoops no it's by level

[Rattle Squirrell]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Project1999:About
There are more SK's in the game compared to ranger and pally, but only a 2% dif. Still, hybrid is pretty much devastated on this server, between 4%-6% of pop. I played on tunare from launch, it was a running joke how many hybrids were in the game. They were everywhere. Tunare had a crazy amount of elf rangers for sure, since it was the tunare server and all. Classic.

Theres that proof you requested

[indiscriminate_hater]

Theres that proof you requested

this only gives breakdown on this server, not classic servers.

not proof

[Rattle Squirrell]

this only gives breakdown on this server, not classic servers.

not proof

Oh jeez....

[Glenzig]

Theres that proof you requested

As long as no one has created any new characters in the last 13 months, then yeah that's good proof.

[Daywolf]

Theres that proof you requested
Well yeah, it's unarguably low pop. The thing of it is, people don't realize it effects everyone. I mean speaking regarding ranger, they are king of outdoor groups. When I played my cleric on early live, I always liked having a ranger in the group when doing outdoor camps. But with the lack of rangers here, and being a class less-wanted, you have more of the population consolidating into dungeons. Notice the over camping of dungeons? And there were even more people on live servers early on, yet with less people here dungeons are over-camped for a reason. So really the formula changes the whole dynamic of the game and everyone suffers.

[Rattle Squirrell]

As long as no one has created any new characters in the last 13 months, then yeah that's good proof.

In the last 13 months what has been the motivation to roll more hybrids? They change something Im not aware of ?

[holsteinrx7]

exp penalties were clearly marked as warnings in both of my strategy guides. strategy guides are classic. so are wikis.

[Daywolf]

As long as no one has created any new characters in the last 13 months, then yeah that's good proof.
There are two samples up there, with a ~2 year difference. What has changed in the past year to suddenly cause hybrids to even out? Statistical facts speak louder than a biased guess ;)

edit: in fact between the two samples, the newer one looks more of a decline... what would have changed since then?

[indiscriminate_hater]

even if there were a much larger proportion of hybrids on classic servers, what does that show? you can speculate all you want about the knowledge of hybrid exp solo/group penatlies being responsible for the low proportion of hybrids here, but it doesn't help.

i think a more likely reason is directly tied to the argument that hybrids suck up more exp. people want more efficient leveling, and hybrids just aren't that efficient, even if the exp penalty was gone. if you want a hyper-efficient leveling group, you have cleric, enchanter, monk, warrior, rogue, rogue, or something similar. why the hell would you add the miserable ranger dps or the half-assed damage mitigation of paladins/sks? the utility that hybrids brings is better and paired with much more useful group function in the purebred classes. now that this "knowledge" is more commonplace, is it any wonder why people choose to play hybrids less here, or why groups would choose a warrior over an SK, all other considerations being equal?

tl;dr stop trying to make this server EZ mode EQ. shit's fucking classic, and if you don't like it, you can git

[Rattle Squirrell]

tl;dr stop trying to make this server EZ mode EQ. shit's fucking classic, and if you don't like it, you can git

I do like the personal ownership people seem to have when others express opinions that do not go hand in hand with their own. "You can git out"

Taking away an Exp penalty to a class is not making the server easy mode. Sorry I don't have a crayon to break this down anymore than I already have.

[kaev]

...
tl;dr stop trying to make this server EZ mode EQ. shit's fucking classic, and if you don't like it, you can git

Stupidest post of the day right there. XP penalties are not "hard" mode, they're just a mildly annoying delay that idiot munchkins use to deny people groups. Meanwhile 100+ mob bard kites (NEVER seen on classic live, wasn't possible due to connections) plus the fucked up AE Chardok PL cartel selling levels for pp are fucking 1000% more EZMode than anything on classic live ever was.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Stupidest post of the day right there. XP penalties are not "hard" mode, they're just a mildly annoying delay that idiot munchkins use to deny people groups. Meanwhile 100+ mob bard kites (NEVER seen on classic live, wasn't possible due to connections) plus the fucked up AE Chardok PL cartel selling levels for pp are fucking 1000% more EZMode than anything on classic live ever was.

Speak the truth!

[justin2090]

Stupidest post of the day right there. XP penalties are not "hard" mode, they're just a mildly annoying delay that idiot munchkins use to deny people groups. Meanwhile 100+ mob bard kites (NEVER seen on classic live, wasn't possible due to connections) plus the fucked up AE Chardok PL cartel selling levels for pp are fucking 1000% more EZMode than anything on classic live ever was.

I think the non-bard/chardok aoe on live was due to the fact that we were all noobs. Maybe there were a few people on live that could think outside the box but for the most part we stuck to tank and spank.

[sox7d]

As a 46 ranger, I laugh at threads like this. I've literally never had to wait more than 15 minutes to find/create a group in CoM throughout the last 6 levels. I think the only people that have denied me would have denied any dps from their 3-4 man groups and have only gotten maybe one comment because I'm a ranger. The people who cry that they can't find groups are probably just miserably annoying, stiffs or suck at their role.

Let the people who are scared off by the penalty stick to their rogues, shamans, chanters and clerics. More raid loot for me.

[loramin]

I say ditch the XP penalties, but not because they are/aren't classic. Clearly they are classic because Kunark had them, but clearly they aren't, because it only took classic EQ a year and a half to ditch the penalties; this server has been around a lot longer than that.

I say ditch them, classic or not, because everyone will have more fun with them gone. Really it's just that simple: ditch the penalties, get a more diverse server, and a more diverse server is more fun for everyone. Even if you never make a hybrid yourself, increased diversity means you get to see more variety in the people you group/raid/trade with.

I think everyone on the server would have more fun if there was more class diversity, and anytime you can change the server in a way that makes it more fun for everyone ... why not?

[Daywolf]

exp penalties were clearly marked as warnings in both of my strategy guides. strategy guides are classic. so are wikis.
Yeah but personal penalty. It comes down to division of xp as related to total xp points requirement for the class. So the penalty doesn't matter if the hybrid is a few levels lower than the non-hybrids in the group. However, the lower hybrid is often going to dish out less DPS at the lower level, yet getting equal xp, so still less desirable. This means, to really be desirable for a group, the hybrid needs to be twinked, even more than the other classes in the group. And any such group that considered twinking to be needed, well probably are twinked themselves, so the hybrid still falls short and less desirable. So you get the results in that chart, not only a low population of hybrids, but in decline.
http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Group_Level_Requirement_for_Experie nce

[kaev]

I think the non-bard/chardok aoe on live was due to the fact that we were all noobs. Maybe there were a few people on live that could think outside the box but for the most part we stuck to tank and spank.

LOL. Really. On 56k modem connections with P2+Voodoo3 at best for cpu+video running the Kunark client. Yeah. Sure.

There were most definitely players then who understood the game quite well enough to do these things if they had been technically possible (I was not one of them, heh.)

[indiscriminate_hater]

Stupidest post of the day right there. XP penalties are not "hard" mode, they're just a mildly annoying delay that idiot munchkins use to deny people groups. Meanwhile 100+ mob bard kites (NEVER seen on classic live, wasn't possible due to connections) plus the fucked up AE Chardok PL cartel selling levels for pp are fucking 1000% more EZMode than anything on classic live ever was.

bard kiting would have been much harder, but still possible. chardok, etc. AOE was still very possible. the key back in classic was not having any of the swarm showing up in your screen. anyone that ever tried running through the tunnel looking at the ground or the sky vs. straight ahead can confirm this.

sorry to burst your bubble but just because you personally didn't do something on classic doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that it wasn't possible. drop your rose-colored glasses

[Rattle Squirrell]

bard kiting would have been much harder, but still possible. chardok, etc. AOE was still very possible. the key back in classic was not having any of the swarm showing up in your screen. anyone that ever tried running through the tunnel looking at the ground or the sky vs. straight ahead can confirm this.

sorry to burst your bubble but just because you personally didn't do something on classic doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that it wasn't possible. drop your rose-colored glasses

This guy just wants to watch the world burn, and argue with everything, and anything he can.

[Glenzig]

There are two samples up there, with a ~2 year difference. What has changed in the past year to suddenly cause hybrids to even out? Statistical facts speak louder than a biased guess ;)

edit: in fact between the two samples, the newer one looks more of a decline... what would have changed since then?

I actually am fine with them removing the hybrid penalty early if that's what they wanted to do. I think it would be a positive thing in the long run. I was just saying that you can't quote a 13 month old population chart to prove what percentage of people play which classes currently. It may be the best data available, but it doesn't apply to the argument of current server population.

[Daywolf]

why the hell would you add the miserable ranger dpsfur wut? Tracking, sow, harmony, DS for MT, CC, sneak (to keep aggro down assisting MT). But if you stay in cramped dungeons all the time, then no it wouldn't matter. And that is part of why I think dungeons are over-crowded with so few people on this server, cant make really worthwhile outdoor camps. Yes there are outdoor camps, but the balance tips heavily to dungeons here. A missing component.

[Glenzig]

fur wut? Tracking, sow, harmony, DS for MT, CC, sneak (to keep aggro down assisting MT). But if you stay in cramped dungeons all the time, then no it wouldn't matter. And that is part of why I think dungeons are over-crowded with so few people on this server, cant make really worthwhile outdoor camps. Yes there are outdoor camps, but the balance tips heavily to dungeons here. A missing component.

I don't know. I think this might just be partly your own biase. The best drops are typically from dungeons, the best zem's are in dungeons, so I'm going to lean more toward those factors rather than assume that they aren't camping outdoor zones because of lack of rangers. Kind of a stretch.

[indiscriminate_hater]

fur wut? Tracking, sow, harmony, DS for MT, CC, sneak (to keep aggro down assisting MT). But if you stay in cramped dungeons all the time, then no it wouldn't matter. And that is part of why I think dungeons are over-crowded with so few people on this server, cant make really worthwhile outdoor camps. Yes there are outdoor camps, but the balance tips heavily to dungeons here. A missing component.

since you're cherry-picking my quote, i'll go ahead and pick part of it for you too, since apparently you missed it:

"the utility that hybrids bring is better and paired with much more useful group function in the purebred classes"

[justin2090]

LOL. Really. On 56k modem connections with P2+Voodoo3 at best for cpu+video running the Kunark client. Yeah. Sure.

There were most definitely players then who understood the game quite well enough to do these things if they had been technically possible (I was not one of them, heh.)

Hold on a sec swarmin OT on my iphone. Good thing this game doesn't require a beast machine to play amiright.

[Daywolf]

I actually am fine with them removing the hybrid penalty early if that's what they wanted to do. I think it would be a positive thing in the long run. I was just saying that you can't quote a 13 month old population chart to prove what percentage of people play which classes currently. It may be the best data available, but it doesn't apply to the argument of current server population.
I don't see why it doesn't apply, it's a solid statistical trend, well documented right there, irrefutable. It gives two data points years apart. Nothing has changed in the past year to reverse the tend and is either holding - but more likely further in decline as the statistics would suggest. The next measurable statistical change will be with Velious unless something happens between now and then.

[Daywolf]

I don't know. I think this might just be partly your own biase. The best drops are typically from dungeons, the best zem's are in dungeons, so I'm going to lean more toward those factors rather than assume that they aren't camping outdoor zones because of lack of rangers. Kind of a stretch.
If the dungeon is excessively overcrowded compared to outdoor zones, then you are waiting longer for a group in the dungeon rather than getting xp, on average regarding pugs. So it may be nice to have the ZEM, but doesn't help if you are not in a group or are stuck in a camp waiting for the desirable xp camp to have an opening for you.

Better drops... maybe at cap levels, but not always true while leveling. At cap it matters not regarding xp modifiers, just based on the performance of the hybrid in the group. But if leveling groups suffer the hybrid to find other spots, well there are less hybrids at cap, and which the statistics show (even not bothering to roll them). The real issue isn't item drops while leveling, but the xp of the group. This server is over four years old, item drops are less relevant now compared to launch here when they were more so.

[Lune]

As a 46 ranger, I laugh at threads like this. I've literally never had to wait more than 15 minutes to find/create a group in CoM throughout the last 6 levels. I think the only people that have denied me would have denied any dps from their 3-4 man groups and have only gotten maybe one comment because I'm a ranger. The people who cry that they can't find groups are probably just miserably annoying, stiffs or suck at their role.

Let the people who are scared off by the penalty stick to their rogues, shamans, chanters and clerics. More raid loot for me.

Give it a try in Sebilis

[sox7d]

Give it a try in Sebilis

Played a wizard in Sebilis. Same sentiment.

[Glenzig]

I never realized wizards were actually hybrids. Very strange.

[Fiyero]

I never realized wizards were actually hybrids. Very strange.

They're not, they're just as much or less desirable than hybrids.

[Rekrul]

Daywolf,

F U and F your warrior cleric and wizard druid.

[Rekrul]

learn to play the goddamn game is what i mean

[Daywolf]

Daywolf,

F U and F your warrior cleric and wizard druid.
Hah! Drunk again?

[Glenzig]

They're not, they're just as much or less desirable than hybrids.

Well how are we going to fix that gosh darn it?!

[kaev]

Well how are we going to fix that gosh darn it?!

no doubt the plan is to break shit even worse with TheWizardsRevenge[tm]. (Aka the original Manaburn implementation and the resulting single-group dragon ganksquads. You didn't think all those wizards being PLed up as Velious approaches were an accident, did you?)

[sox7d]

Whatever, the point stands, if the devs listened to every whiny thread on these forums there'd be no MQ'd epics, no powerleveling in newb zones, no bard swarming, no chardok AoE, no exp penalties for hybrids and a server wipe.


Is that really the kind of server you want to play on?

[Gregor]

Whatever, the point stands, if the devs listened to every whiny thread on these forums there'd be no MQ'd epics, no powerleveling in newb zones, no bard swarming, no chardok AoE, no exp penalties for hybrids and a server wipe.


Is that really the kind of server you want to play on?

The irony is this would all change the server for the better.

[sox7d]

The irony is this would all change the server for the better.

I seriously hope you're joking.

[Rattle Squirrell]

I seriously hope you're joking.

can you explain the benefits or 60's hogging newb zones with power leveling?

Explain why hybrid penalties being in the game 4 years after they should be.

Explain why the ability to BUY your epic makes it "awesome server"

Explain how the mass charging of people to be able to participate in your faggy Chardok AoE Group benefits ANYONE. (other than the people charging)

Are you serious ?? lol

[sox7d]

can you explain the benefits or 60's hogging newb zones with power leveling?

Explain why hybrid penalties being in the game 4 years after they should be.

Explain why the ability to BUY your epic makes it "awesome server"

Explain how the mass charging of people to be able to participate in your faggy Chardok AoE Group benefits ANYONE. (other than the people charging)

Are you serious ?? lol

Here we go again...

[Rattle Squirrell]

Here we go again...

is that some cheap way of giving absolutely zero reason all those things you mentioned wouldn't make the server better if they were stopped??

[Gregor]

Whatever, the point stands, if the devs listened to every whiny thread on these forums there'd be no MQ'd epics, no powerleveling in newb zones, no bard swarming, no chardok AoE, no exp penalties for hybrids and a server wipe.


Is that really the kind of server you want to play on?

Lets see:

-MQ's were never intended anyways.
-Powerleveling in newb zones causes grief to the entire zone for the sake of 1 greedy player
-Bard swarm kite is just stupid, most people will never see a single bard LFG from 20-60 because of it
-Chardok AoE, again grief to all that are there legitimately, 2k Staff of Shielding? lmao
-no exp penalty for hybrids is a no brainer, hybrids are not stronger then purists so why are they penalized? Especially paladin and ranger.....
-server wipe because kunark for 4 years has thrown everything for a loop

[Rattle Squirrell]

Lets see:

-MQ's were never intended anyways.
-Powerleveling in newb zones causes grief to the entire zone for the sake of 1 greedy player
-Bard swarm kite is just stupid, most people will never see a single bard LFG from 20-60 because of it
-Chardok AoE, again grief to all that are there legitimately, 2k Staff of Shielding? lmao
-no exp penalty for hybrids is a no brainer, hybrids are not stronger then purists so why are they penalized? Especially paladin and ranger.....
-server wipe because kunark for 4 years has thrown everything for a loop

You know damn well that if there was a server wipe half the server would be on suicide watch.

These people devote FAR too much time to shit-socking dragons to ever think of losing their pixels.

[sox7d]

is that some cheap way of giving absolutely zero reason all those things you mentioned wouldn't make the server better if they were stopped??

I just think it's funny that the ONLY people that complain about that kind of things are people who've made their accounts in the last year. You come onto this server like you own it and demand everything to be changed when the people who've been here for a long time are fine with it. We're not the cancer, you are.

[Glenzig]

I'm just wondering what sort of percentages of population for classes like ranger or paladin would be viewed as acceptable population saturation. Where would that sweet spot be that would be constituted as satisfactory for optimum server health?

[Whirled]

Hmmm...
True, change WOULD be the ultimate challenge that some seem to say they want.
http://www.2knowmyself.com/fear/Fear_of_change

[Rattle Squirrell]

I just think it's funny that the ONLY people that complain about that kind of things are people who've made their accounts in the last year. You come onto this server like you own it and demand everything to be changed when the people who've been here for a long time are fine with it. We're not the cancer, you are.

lol not everyone that enjoyed playing EverQuest had to forumquest too. I have been playing for quite a bit bro. have several chars that in the end game shit.

I even have a bard that took advantage of the mass pulling and stuff (think it's fun as shit)

Just saying man.

[Rattle Squirrell]

I just think it's funny that the ONLY people that complain about that kind of things are people who've made their accounts in the last year. You come onto this server like you own it and demand everything to be changed when the people who've been here for a long time are fine with it. We're not the cancer, you are.

And by the way I didn't come in here saying I demanded shit to be changed. Was just offering my opinion on certain things just the way you are. If the GM's did decide to change something and you got pissed, would it be you DEMANDING they change it back or just expressing your feelings towards the change?

[Swish]

The Chardok AOE racket has (some) highly toxic ppl involved it must be said.

Maybe its disgruntled rogues that can't pickpocket no mo?

[Rattle Squirrell]

The Chardok AOE racket has (some) highly toxic ppl involved it must be said.

Maybe its disgruntled rogues that can't pickpocket no mo?

LET US PICKPOCKET !!!

[Rattle Squirrell]

I'm just wondering what sort of percentages of population for classes like ranger or paladin would be viewed as acceptable population saturation. Where would that sweet spot be that would be constituted as satisfactory for optimum server health?

Im not anywhere close to having that kinda information lol. I see where you're shooting and you're accuracy is dead on for what you're asking.

I have no answers for that man, unfortunately.

[Whirled]

I'd play my ranger more if I knew there wasn't a penalty....just sayin...

[Glenzig]

Im not anywhere close to having that kinda information lol. I see where you're shooting and you're accuracy is dead on for what you're asking.

I have no answers for that man, unfortunately.

I'm not sure if you can state with any sense of finality that there is a shortage of hybrid classes at the moment then. If you don't know how many of a thing you need, how do you know that there is a shortage?

[Rattle Squirrell]

I'm not sure if you can state with any sense of finality that there is a shortage of hybrid classes at the moment then. If you don't know how many of a thing you need, how do you know that there is a shortage?

I do feel I can say with full confidence that more people would be willing, have fun, and seriously enjoy hybrid classes ALOT more if there wasn't a penalty.

I can also say with full confidence that it would remove the negative from inviting a hybrid to your group if there was no longer a penalty for doing so.

Do I have a set number for you on where we are today on hybrids VS where we should be ? Nope......

However I can say that I know in my mind at least, there alot more people would be willing to play a hybrid if there wasn't such a large penalty for doing so.

[Glenzig]

I'd play my ranger more if I knew there wasn't a penalty....just sayin...

Oh I'm definitely braking my ranger out as soon as the penalty is gone. Without a doubt.

[Whirled]

http://memeguy.com/photos/images/harrison-ford-ranger--84392.jpg

Ranger Appreciation week in the hopes for a better ranger tomorrow!

[fadetree]

Yeah, I'm pretty much parked until the penalty is gone. You'll find me occasionally sniping a fish or two in Kedge but thats about it.

In reference to the earlier debate, I'm down with what rattle was saying, with the exception of server wipe.

[Scrubosaur]

Hybrid penalty was probably one of the best concepts around when EQ started. The fact that in order to be effective end game you needed a TANK - aka warrior, a HEALER - aka cleric, and DPS - aka rogue, it helped steer people in the right direction when creating a character at EQs beginning. I love the idea that if you wanted to play a character that has a mix of skills then you had to pay the exp penalty price. I am sure it all relates back to DnD dual classes, where your exp is split between each class (or something like that). Of course by the time Velious came out there was probably already a good chunk war/clr/rog playing the game to warrant easing up on the hybrid penalty.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Hybrid penalty was probably one of the best concepts around when EQ started. The fact that in order to be effective end game you needed a TANK - aka warrior, a HEALER - aka cleric, and DPS - aka rogue, it helped steer people in the right direction when creating a character at EQs beginning. I love the idea that if you wanted to play a character that has a mix of skills then you had to pay the exp penalty price. I am sure it all relates back to DnD dual classes, where your exp is split between each class (or something like that). Of course by the time Velious came out there was probably already a good chunk war/clr/rog playing the game to warrant easing up on the hybrid penalty.

You know, I never even thought to relate it back to D&D. That is eye opening to say the least.

I do still feel the server is established far beyond any need for hybrid penalty even with the great points you made towards steering towards the core classes in the beginning.

Thanks for that information though, never even thought of it that way and now I do =)

[feste]

Devs are well aware of this issue and understand it completely. If you don't like their decision, make your own server.

Although technically true I dun like this response. Its just like saying "search feature dumbass"

[Rattle Squirrell]

Agreed

[fadetree]

You know, I never even thought to relate it back to D&D. That is eye opening to say the least.

I do still feel the server is established far beyond any need for hybrid penalty even with the great points you made towards steering towards the core classes in the beginning.

Thanks for that information though, never even thought of it that way and now I do =)

Yep, its definitely related to D&D. The mechanism itself isn't really a bad idea, but it didn't get translated right. In D&D, you really did have a huge advantage as a hybrid. In EQ, not so much. I actually think some amount of penalty is the right way to go for EQ hybrids, but 40% is ridiculous. 5% would be a better match with the actual in game advantages.

And in all cases, it shouldn't be applied to the group, but to the players exp after distribution. The idea that we form long term groups and are desperate to stay even with our groupmates just didn't work out to be true. This is the real invitation killer, if the exp reduction was perceived to be just applied to us, we wouldn't be so shunned. Even though, its been pointed out many times that the group exp is not hurt nearly as much as people think, but yeah anyways.

[Daywolf]

I'm just wondering what sort of percentages of population for classes like ranger or paladin would be viewed as acceptable population saturation. Where would that sweet spot be that would be constituted as satisfactory for optimum server health?Probably double at least. So maybe 4-6% I'd reckon, at around lvl50-lvl60. Would be better than devastated population levels anyway... 2% at cap??? srsly

I'm not sure if you can state with any sense of finality that there is a shortage of hybrid classes at the moment then. If you don't know how many of a thing you need, how do you know that there is a shortage? Oh... I thought you were asking a serious question. Usually you make sense (or close to it hehe) and often agree with your posts (well...), but you make absolutely no sense here. At least you are not a flat out troll like that sox7d guy, throwing out BS, flames and trying to derail the thread to other issues as usual. I'm guessing he's from red.

2% only shows something is seriously broken... If this had been live, they would have done something to fix the problem already, as they eventually did. What's the point in making a class if no one plays it? Three classes in fact. Unfortunately, the problem - or the result, was multiplied here on p99, devastating three classes making the "classic" experience... well not really classic. And like I've mentioned, imo hard to dispute, effects everyone in the game to some degree even if they just don't realize it... or don't care. That's pretty common these days though, some sort of generational thing.

[sox7d]

Sidenote: it's rather bullshit in DnD as it is. My 5 druid/5 fighter is severely underleveled compared to the uninhibited 7-different-prestige-class-dips-from-every-supplement power gamers in my group.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Yep, its definitely related to D&D. The mechanism itself isn't really a bad idea, but it didn't get translated right. In D&D, you really did have a huge advantage as a hybrid. In EQ, not so much. I actually think some amount of penalty is the right way to go for EQ hybrids, but 40% is ridiculous. 5% would be a better match with the actual in game advantages.

And in all cases, it shouldn't be applied to the group, but to the players exp after distribution. The idea that we form long term groups and are desperate to stay even with our groupmates just didn't work out to be true. This is the real invitation killer, if the exp reduction was perceived to be just applied to us, we wouldn't be so shunned. Even though, its been pointed out many times that the group exp is not hurt nearly as much as people think, but yeah anyways.

jeez, that was exactly what I was explaining to my girlfriend about the hybrids. The penalty almost seems like it seriously outweighs even the fun factor.

[sox7d]

jeez, that was exactly what I was explaining to my girlfriend about the hybrids. The penalty almost seems like it seriously outweighs even the fun factor.

This game isn't about fun. No one finds pressing "Q" and looking at numbers inherently fun. The fun is in the constant stream of accomplishment.


Leveling a ranger with an experience penalty is just that much more of an accomplishment. That's why I'm not complaining.

60 ranger in EQ > 60 anything in EQ > 60 in vanilla WoW > 60 in WoW currently

It's all arbitrary.

[scythic]

I'm a Ranger and am for the exp penalties. I haven't had issues finding groups and am proud of the badge of honor having a leveled Hybrid bears.

[sox7d]

Seriously, I'll probably quit once they become flavor of the week.

[fadetree]

I'm a Ranger and am for the exp penalties. I haven't had issues finding groups and am proud of the badge of honor having a leveled Hybrid bears.

That's true enough. When I see a 60 ranger or knight, I am seriously impressed. When I see a 60 anything else...not so much.

But that doesn't mean that the %'s are appropriate. I mean thats like strapping cinderblocks onto your arms and legs, because you want people to be impressed when you walk around, and then saying thats the way it oughta be.

The %'s are out of line in my opinion with what they were intended to offset. As I said, I am not against a penalty, but the amount currently in place, plus its affects on grouping, are not appropriate. Since we are constrained to be classic, we can't really start modifying the %'s in a way that didnt happen in classic. So, of th epossible alternatives, I am for an 'early' removal of the exp penalties.

[loramin]

Sidenote: it's rather bullshit in DnD as it is. My 5 druid/5 fighter is severely underleveled compared to the uninhibited 7-different-prestige-class-dips-from-every-supplement power gamers in my group.

Everquest was (loosely) based on Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, ie. v1.0 of the rules. You're referring to v3.0/3.5, where multi-classing works very differently.

The main difference is that a 6th level fighter/wizard in AD&D had most of the advantages of both a 6th level fighter and a 6th level wizard, whereas in 3rd edition that same fighter/wizard would have the powers of a 3rd level fighter and a 3rd level wizard. As you note, it's much better to just be a 6th level wizard in that edition. In AD&D though multi-classing (which didn't allow for druid/fighters BTW) was incredibly powerful, so they needed an experience handicap to balance it.

The Mystic Theurge prestige class in 3.5 is kind of close to a AD&D wizard/cleric, if that helps.

[sox7d]

Everquest was (loosely) based on Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, ie. v1.0 of the rules. You're referring to v3.0/3.5, where multi-classing works very differently.

The main difference is that a 6th level fighter/wizard in AD&D had most of the advantages of both a 6th level fighter and a 6th level wizard, whereas in 3rd edition that same fighter/wizard would have the powers of a 3rd level fighter and a 3rd level wizard. As you note, it's much better to just be a 6th level wizard in that edition. In AD&D though multi-classing (which didn't allow for druid/fighters BTW) was incredibly powerful, so they needed an experience handicap to balance it.

The Mystic Theurge prestige class in 3.5 is kind of close to a AD&D wizard/cleric, if that helps.

I think you're misinterpreting multi-classing and theurge-like prestige classes. A level 10 character that is 5 druid/5 fighter uses roughly as much exp as a lvl 15 character that is pure or prestiged.

[kaev]

Yep, its definitely related to D&D. The mechanism itself isn't really a bad idea, but it didn't get translated right. In D&D, you really did have a huge advantage as a hybrid. In EQ, not so much. I actually think some amount of penalty is the right way to go for EQ hybrids, but 40% is ridiculous. 5% would be a better match with the actual in game advantages.

And in all cases, it shouldn't be applied to the group, but to the players exp after distribution. The idea that we form long term groups and are desperate to stay even with our groupmates just didn't work out to be true. This is the real invitation killer, if the exp reduction was perceived to be just applied to us, we wouldn't be so shunned. Even though, its been pointed out many times that the group exp is not hurt nearly as much as people think, but yeah anyways.

The problem is the XP penalty is just stupid, it doesn't matter even slightly once you've hit 60 (50 originally.) All it does is delay your trip to max level, once you're there it is nothing. If your class/race is superior to a class/race competing for the same role, the delay doesn't matter at all in the end, if your class/race is not superior to competing class(es) then WTF is the penalty for? It is simply stupid shitty design, there is no other way to describe it.

Likewise, btw, the lack of a decent intrinsic warrior agro mechanism (lolTaunt), which was the root of so much Warrior angst later in the timeline. They fixed Rogue agro before Kunark, (wonder if can still find the newsgroup threads on how awful it was to be a Rogue before Evade went in.) But Warriors were left hanging with nothing but Raid MT as a clear class role for quite a few expansions.

Contrary to the endlessly repeated claims of certain spamposters here, the strengths of EQ were in spite of the stupid shit, not because of it. But go ahead and cling to your beliefs, I'm sure they're quite comforting on those long lonely nights.

[Daywolf]

The problem is the XP penalty is just stupid, it doesn't matter even slightly once you've hit 60 (50 originally.) All it does is delay your trip to max level, once you're there it is nothing. If your class/race is superior to a class/race competing for the same role, the delay doesn't matter at all in the end, if your class/race is not superior to competing class(es) then WTF is the penalty for? It is simply stupid shitty design, there is no other way to describe it.Yeah but the result is that there are far less players taking a hybrid to cap, or even rolling them coincidentally. Agreed it doesn't matter once at cap, but it matters enough to decimate hybrid populations to even reach cap. I don't think a big component to that is simply the class xp hit, but being that it impacts group xp which does the damage. Knowing this, the classes become decimated as they are, few roll them.

And the only way to really offset this problem, is not to "learn to play" (as someone spewed out irrationally) but to completely twink the hybrid so they can play in higher level groups (5+ levels). But even then, pugs are not usually doing gear checks, and even considered a bit stupid to do so. Then if that 5+ group is also twinked, then the hybrid twink still falls short. A dilemma, is it worth twinking a hybrid that much? How many hybrid characters were simply PL'ed up rather than spending huge amounts of plats on gear? Presents problems, and the results are well documented.

[loramin]

I think you're misinterpreting multi-classing and theurge-like prestige classes. A level 10 character that is 5 druid/5 fighter uses roughly as much exp as a lvl 15 character that is pure or prestiged.

At first when I read your post I thought you were bonkers because in 3.5 every time you level you pick a class. Which class you pick has nothing to do with the experience it took to get that level, so a 5 druid/5 fighter is definitely the same XP as any other level 10, not a level 15.

But then I remembered that 3.5 had two forms of "multi-classing": the way I just described, and then those wacky multi-class rules they introduced at the very end of the edition. I didn't realize that you were talking about those rules because you'd normally call that a 5th level fighter/druid, not a fighter 5/druid 5. But in any case, those were definitely closer to AD&D's multi-classing, as was the Mystic Theurge prestige class, because both give you a way to have a caster/something else, while not having to lose half your caster levels.

Still, my point remains: Everquest was based on a different edition of D&D, so you can't really compare your 3.5 5th level druid/fighter to an EQ ranger or an AD&D druid/fighter (among other things because there were no druid/fighters in AD&D).

[Baldur]

So the class penalties definitely affect the amount of hybrids on the server. I just recently started playing with about 5 other friends at the same time and those that rolled hybrids have since rolled different classes.

And it wasn't because they were harder to play, or they didn't like them, it was because they couldn't keep up with the rest of us that didn't roll hybrids. We try to play together, but don't always, and the hybrids just fell way behind. And it was quicker for them to start a different class than try and keep up.

It really is not fun when you want to play a certain class like a hybrid but the exp penalty causes you to change. All the arguments against removing the class penalties seem a bit weak to me. You can't make the classic timeline argument since we are way past when Velious should have been released. And the slippery slope argument falls short in my book too. Just because you remove class penalties doesn't mean you have to make any other changes that came after Velious. And the feeling of accomplishment argument made me chuckle. I see level 60 SKs and Rangers and think they must be a masochist.

[fiveeauxfour]

Maybe this can be used to gauge population statistics?


http://p1999.dmsimard.com/db/Classes

[Daywolf]

Maybe this can be used to gauge population statistics?


http://p1999.dmsimard.com/db/Classes
So after 4yrs, there are 28 rangers at lvl cap? hehehe

[fiveeauxfour]

There are 1.6k people who were counted as anonymous. Thus, while discrete numbers might be slightly incorrect, the overall %'s next to everything I do believe are representative.

[Daywolf]

There are 1.6k people who were counted as anonymous. Thus, while discrete numbers might be slightly incorrect, the overall %'s next to everything I do believe are representative.
Oh yeah that DB... hides anon etc. But speaking for rangers, there isn't really any reason to go anon, not like for druid. Pretty much any hybrid there is very little reason to turn on anon/rp. I think in most cases 70% of the time anon's will be druids that just aren't into abandoning their camps to port people around for a few plats. 28 rangers and prolly half of them stopped playing years ago to play something else hah

[fiveeauxfour]

A ranger should go anon/rp so that he may rp a warrior.

[iruinedyourday]

A ranger should go anon/rp so that he may rp a warrior.

:D:D:D

[Daywolf]

A ranger should go anon/rp so that he may rp a warrior.
Ranger should be played as a ranger, the class has strengths, even at cap, quite useful in groups. But that's beside the point, there were swarms of hybrids on live, but few here. Anon is pretty pointless for hybrids so it's not a matter of most capped hybrids using anon. It's poor game design that became amplified here, taking away from the classic experience of EQ since the fix hasn't yet been implemented and for years.

I haven't said what the emu devs should do about it, just pointing out the facts. But clearly it's broken.

[Doors]

No class exp penalties on red.

[fiveeauxfour]

I haven't said what the emu devs should do about it, just pointing out the facts. But clearly it's broken.

I really do like what you said here in this last statement because I think it is exactly what the "opposing side" of the debate is critical of. You say that there were hoards of hybrids on live. True. Then you say its poor game design, but this is a subjective matter.

Regardless of this, the point is that whether or not it's a poor game design, there were hoards of hybrids on live, or even if everyone on live understood about min/maxing but just decided to play what they want, your entire argument results in a single conclusion. You say that you aren't saying what the P99 people should do to remedy the situation, then state that it's broken. Something broken usually demands repair from diligent owners, and your repair is implicit throughout what youre trying to say. Remove the penalty.

This server is not classic eq. It never will be classic eq. We need to all stop living like (excuse the douche literary reference) Emma Bovary-- meaning that the ideal of a classic experience is possible if I can just clench my anus as hard as I did 15 years ago when I enter Fear. Accept the game how it is, adapt, roll with the punches, meet new people, have a good time, and perhaps stir some fond memories from times past.

My opinion on the matter is that I'm playing this game free of charge. I'm not sure if the P99 staff is paying for this monetarily (perhaps they get donations), but they are certainly paying for this server in some fashion. Play the game until its no longer fun, then move on, and perhaps along the way we can stop being douches to each other.

Blah blah blah, lets all bicker some more ;)

[Daywolf]

I really do like what you said here in this last statement because I think it is exactly what the "opposing side" of the debate is critical of. You say that there were hoards of hybrids on live. True. Then you say its poor game design, but this is a subjective matter.

Regardless of this, the point is that whether or not it's a poor game design, there were hoards of hybrids on live, or even if everyone on live understood about min/maxing but just decided to play what they want, your entire argument results in a single conclusion. You say that you aren't saying what the P99 people should do to remedy the situation, then state that it's broken. Something broken usually demands repair from diligent owners, and your repair is implicit throughout what youre trying to say. Remove the penalty.

This server is not classic eq. It never will be classic eq. We need to all stop living like (excuse the douche literary reference) Emma Bovary-- meaning that the ideal of a classic experience is possible if I can just clench my anus as hard as I did 15 years ago when I enter Fear. Accept the game how it is, adapt, roll with the punches, meet new people, have a good time, and perhaps stir some fond memories from times past.

My opinion on the matter is that I'm playing this game free of charge. I'm not sure if the P99 staff is paying for this monetarily (perhaps they get donations), but they are certainly paying for this server in some fashion. Play the game until its no longer fun, then move on, and perhaps along the way we can stop being douches to each other.

Blah blah blah, lets all bicker some more ;)
Why does that confuse you? One can look at a development issue objectively, analyze and compartmentalize the results of the findings. Weather they fix it or not, well isn't my point, but just that it exists. Even in the very basic role of game development, such reports are submitted by alpha and beta testers, not including how things should be fixed, but just recognizing that a problem exists in the system or in the general design even.

The difference here is we have a sample to compare to, that being the live servers. Many here, even though "15 years ago" and many years thereafter, did their time on the live servers and well enough remember how things operated within the system and the design elements in place, as well as how it all interacted effecting the whole.

The bottom line of all that is that the statistics shows that there is a major flaw effecting the results of this server in comparison to not only the original live servers, but clearly a flaw for any game project which implements multiple class structures into the design of the game. For if a game developer works tirelessly to add classes to a game, shouldn't they be played? Clearly yes, or it simply becomes a waste of development time to implement and yet benefits nobody, even hurting player populations in the game.

I simply point out the flaw, one that if corrected somehow may benefit not only the developers but as well for the game community and the population health of the server. May be "blah blah blah" to you, but I consider it a serious matter, whether I play the game or not, play a hybrid or not. One can learn from example, be it a good example or a bad example. Not only if a flaw is located, but how one handles it as well, and the repercussions of such corrections or neglections.

[fiveeauxfour]

I'm far from confused.

[fadetree]

Well, its all moot in terms of what could possibly done here. The only route for change is the removal of the penalties, as happened on live. The question becomes when. The absolute insistence that it has to happen in terms of sequence as it did on live, ie., Velious and then some, I think ignores the fact that the timeline is all screwed up in other ways, namely duration.
I can see an extremely slight possibility that they may decide to remove the penalties sooner, but I don't feel very hopeful. I really do think that the penalties are doing way more harm than good at this point. In terms of duration, we are WAY past where they came to the same realization on live.

[Xadion]

Every hybrid can bring a lot to the group if they are actively at the keyboard- most only classes if someone is kind of ehhhh there will only result in a 10-20% net decline in usefulness - but an ehhh hybrid is like almost worthless- but an active hybrid is insanely helpful to a group.

Bard, Ranger, SK, Pal, Shaman, something group - all active and attentive can outpace almost any other group.

Do be warned, I am a ehhhh hybrid 90% of the time :-P -- that is why I soloed to 60 :-)

[Duncon]

Sooo… now that everyone agrees the xp penalties should be removed we can discuss the mechanics. I have this faded distant memory of all the hybrids getting a level or two when the penalty was removed as they kept their current XP but their XP table was changed. Is this how it worked? Is this how it should work?

Personally I would rather have my level remain unchanged when the penalty is removed.

[Glenzig]

Hybrid penalty should be applied to all classes until day one release of Velious, then all class penalties should be removed. Good way to motivate everyone to beta test Velious.

[fadetree]

Every hybrid can bring a lot to the group if they are actively at the keyboard-

Sure, I don't think anyone is arguing that. I and others are just saying that the penalty amount is way off in regard to what it was supposed to counterbalance. And, also that since it happened on live already from a duration standpoint, there is an argument to be made that it should be changed before velious releases.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Raise your hand if you would legitimately be upset if P99 devs decided to lift the class XP penalties prior to Velious.

Nobody? Thought so

Make it so

http://wegeekgirls.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/make-it-so-captain.jpg

[fadetree]

I give it a 99.99% chance of *not* happening. But ya never know. They did decide to change a few other particularly egregious things non-classically. Although, like I said, you could make the 'classic' argument for this, at least in terms of duration.

[Ele]

Raise your hand if you would legitimately be upset if P99 devs decided to lift the class XP penalties prior to Velious.

Nobody? Thought so

Make it so

/raise :mad:

[indiscriminate_hater]

Raise your hand if you would legitimately be upset if P99 devs decided to lift the class XP penalties prior to Velious.

Nobody? Thought so

Make it so

i, for one, would get my jimmies rustled if this happened

[Daldaen]

I assume trolling is going on but.. Anyone care to explain that stance?

Basically it boils down to this:

Hybrid penalties were in until a month into Velious.
We are still at the end of Kunark.
Therefore hybrid penalties should stay here.

Now there is the argument that 4 years Kunark isn't classic, etc. But if you want to play that card, there are tons of things that were updated during Velious/Luclin/PoP that occurred 4 years after Kunark that aren't being discussed. Simple changes like... Kunark evacs being castable from anywhere? Necromancer spells losing nighttime requirement. Druid spells losing outdoor requirement. DoT Damage not decreasing when mob is moving. Snare and root stacking. Skill cap increases like hybrid melee or Druid track. Etc.

Lots of other things happened and it's tough for them to do one fix out of its era/timeline without the others. So it's just best to leave it in and have it removed during Velious on this server.

If they do remove it, I'm gonna be posting so hard for snare and root stacking as well as Kunark evacs castable from every zone.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Basically it boils down to this:

Hybrid penalties were in until a month into Velious.
We are still at the end of Kunark.
Therefore hybrid penalties should stay here.

Now there is the argument that 4 years Kunark isn't classic, etc. But if you want to play that card, there are tons of things that were updated during Velious/Luclin/PoP that occurred 4 years after Kunark that aren't being discussed. Simple changes like... Kunark evacs being castable from anywhere? Necromancer spells losing nighttime requirement. Druid spells losing outdoor requirement. DoT Damage not decreasing when mob is moving. Snare and root stacking. Skill cap increases like hybrid melee or Druid track. Etc.

Lots of other things happened and it's tough for them to do one fix out of its era/timeline without the others. So it's just best to leave it in and have it removed during Velious on this server.

If they do remove it, I'm gonna be posting so hard for snare and root stacking as well as Kunark evacs castable from every zone.


Classic was and is amazing. However, the things you just requested are not going to make the game unplayable or boring....

Plane of Knowledge? Ya that was EZ mode that made the game less enjoyable.

Casting evac from a non Kunark dungeon? Doubt it's goingto shut the server down.

[Daywolf]

If they do remove it, I'm gonna be posting so hard for snare and root stacking as well as Kunark evacs castable from every zone.
Yeah but... people didn't quit playing the game due to that. In this case, it was not just a feature being added/tweaked, but a fix that kept people from quitting the game. If you are intent on playing a hybrid, and I have known many that do only that, yet then you are not welcomed into groups in a game that pretty much does forced grouping, well people go elsewhere. How does that compare to root/snare stacking? I don't think anyone ever left the game over that.....

Hybrid penalty should be applied to all classesThat's always been my general happy thought ever since around launch here, to just make every level of every class equally a double hell level. Cant do it at this point, more of a day-1 thing, but would slow down the zone/camp progression resulting in more socializing. Then I'd make quests a little more relevant for xp, but not quest grinding through the levels, just a bit better than it is. More of a hybrid server thing of course, even if the rest much like p99. But I know you are just being flippant. Sadly, most of the established community here seems to break down to the sort that wants to play a challenging game the easiest way through it haha. So you generally get the hybrid hate from groups I guess.

[Daldaen]

Classic was and is amazing. However, the things you just requested are not going to make the game unplayable or boring....

Plane of Knowledge? Ya that was EZ mode that made the game less enjoyable.

Casting evac from a non Kunark dungeon? Doubt it's goingto shut the server down.

Eh as stated already people ask for ports from EC to south Ro and Lavastorm. 2 zone runs are tough, yet PoK makes the game less enjoyable :/.

Having a central hub where everyone can trade, tradeskill, train, buy new spells, do quite a few quests, bank and form groups was very nice for the unity of a server. Especially with MGBs for low level toons.

[Baldur]

Lots of other things happened and it's tough for them to do one fix out of its era/timeline without the others.

I'm hoping by tough you mean it's tough because then people will inundate them with other requests outside the timeline? Because from a dev standpoint it shouldn't be tough at all, and it's not tough to do it without the others, you just make that change and no others. Not tough at all...

[Daldaen]

Why should they make this one and not the others though. What makes this worthy and not other fixes?

[fadetree]

Yeah, Dal's hit the nail on the head. Thats why I gave it a 99.99% chance of not happening.

And yeah, the guys saying that things that are classic but dumb/no fun/broken need to be changed, go back and read through the 5 zillion threads that have beaten this to death. The main takeaway is that this server is not intended to be ( your version of ) fun, its intended to be classic ( as possible, there's some things they couldn't deal with ). Period.

[Daywolf]

Why should they make this one and not the others though. What makes this worthy and not other fixes?
Because like what I already replied/explained to you regarding this, people didn't stop playing over root/snare. It's not about making the game easier for you, but fixing a flaw that cause people to loose interest in the game. Generally it's "if you only like a hybrid class then gtfo". It's like you just want it easier with root/snare, while others just don't want to be excluded from the game/groups entirely. This is something SOE devs realized and fixed, once people caught on anyway and started out casting hybrids. If this had never been fixed on live, likely populations would have shifted to generally how it has here on p99 with unplayed classes. That's a major flaw that just eats up dev time.

At least they bothered to fix it. Look at what happened to Creature Handler in SWG. It had problems, their fix was to offer a respec to another class, then they said "oh look, no one plays CR any longer, lets just delete the class". Well yeah, rather than bothering to fix it, and SWG devs were notorious for that, they just deleted the class stealthily rather than bothering to fix it and spending the dev time to do it. That's an example of a really bad example with how to do with a major flaw. But they were too busy crafting the secret patch, NGE, which outright killed the game. It's about disconnect with the player-base, bad development, waste of development time. Always a bad thing, then you loose players.

[fadetree]

There is an argument to be made based on magnitude, which is what day is saying I think, plus a timeline argument of duration, but...still I don't see them doing this. And they would have to go through lengthy justifications on all the other things, as dal mentioned.

[Baldur]

Why should they make this one and not the others though. What makes this worthy and not other fixes?

There have been lots of posts throughout this thread that I think have answered your question, but I'll try to answer it again.

The class exp penalties are detrimentally affecting peoples experience in the game with other players. Being refused a group because of the class you chose is not a fun experience. Not being able to keep up with your friends because you chose a hybrid and they did not is not fun. So much so that a couple people have linked stats backing this up in that hybrids are the least played classes on the server.

Having root and snare stack is just a nicety for classes that have both spells and doesn't detrimentally affect your play experience with other players. Someone isn't going to deny you a group because your root and snare don't stack. Or because enchant metals take a jacinth, or pretty much any other change that happens with Velious or post Velious.

[Zaela]

Balancing is about responding to how players are actually playing the game.

"Timelining" balance changes seems like a weird decision to me. Non-balance related content changes, sure. But balancing on a timeline is anti-balancing. It's balancing it for the people who were playing in 2000, not the players on p99 who are playing right now.

2cp

[Rattle Squirrell]

Why should they make this one and not the others though. What makes this worthy and not other fixes?

as stated numerous times above........this change would *in my opinion* bring more players to the server, and keep the ones here.....here.

not only that....when they take away the exp penalty I think we are going to see a huge increase in the lower level zones again, and since they are already pretty full at peak hours you may see alot of zones that are completely unutilized right now start filling up too with new players.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Balancing is about responding to how players are actually playing the game.

"Timelining" balance changes seems like a weird decision to me. Non-balance related content changes, sure. But balancing on a timeline is anti-balancing. It's balancing it for the people who were playing in 2000, not the players on p99 who are playing right now.

2cp

No idea what you just said. If most peoples defense is that "it wasn't fixed until velious" and velious was released 6-7 months after Kunark. It doesn't seem like 4 years later is a suitable time to fix something that was obviously wrong.....

[Daldaen]

There have been lots of posts throughout this thread that I think have answered your question, but I'll try to answer it again.

The class exp penalties are detrimentally affecting peoples experience in the game with other players. Being refused a group because of the class you chose is not a fun experience. Not being able to keep up with your friends because you chose a hybrid and they did not is not fun. So much so that a couple people have linked stats backing this up in that hybrids are the least played classes on the server.

Having root and snare stack is just a nicety for classes that have both spells and doesn't detrimentally affect your play experience with other players. Someone isn't going to deny you a group because your root and snare don't stack. Or because enchant metals take a jacinth, or pretty much any other change that happens with Velious or post Velious.
Hybrid penalty may or may not help.

I'm a Druid, we regularly get turned away from groups because we can't heal like a cleric, DPS like a rogue or CC like an enchanter. And we don't even have an exp penalty. You're on a server of min-maxers. Removing an exp penalty may get you a few groups... But people will still reject rangers because they view them as a mediocre class. You can hold aggro but won't tank as well as a knight or heal as well as a paladin or DPS as well as a rogue or pull as well as a monk** (unless outdoors, then F monk pullers).

If anything, it will end up with warriors never getting group invites since knights have real snap aggro and tank just as well in a group. Which would have a certain irony to it. Remove hybrid penalty so all classes get group invites. New class gets left on outside cause in classic they were designed poorly for their intended group role.

[Zaela]

No idea what you just said.

Just saying. If people are refusing to group with certain classes flat out, that's a balance issue. It should be addressed now because of those people, not later because of some magic timeline. Balance and game design should trump classicness when it comes down to it. As it sometimes does (non-classic nerfs).

[Daldaen]

Just saying. If people are refusing to group with certain classes flat out, that's a balance issue. It should be addressed now because of those people, not later because of some magic timeline. Balance and game design should trump classicness when it comes down to it. As it sometimes does (non-classic nerfs).

These are pretty damn few and far between.

Pet aggro / non-weapon Dual Wield when pet spam was being used to down PoSky
Ivandyrs Hoop recharging/unresistability to instagib dragons

What really should've been nuked earlier than it was:

Invis pulling - that was just dumb as hell

What really should still get nuked:

SoulFire clickable by all classes
Donal's shouldn't be 20s and chain able on a single target

... But that wouldn't be classic so it's in. Honestly, the pet aggro/DW were fixed and Ivandyr's should be unnerfed to be rechargeable and just make it not be clickable on a few raid mobs.

[Daywolf]

I'm a Druid, we regularly get turned away from groups because we can't heal like a cleric, DPS like a rogue or CC like an enchanter. And we don't even have an exp penalty.
er more like druid is just so over saturated and most groups just don't want two of them in the same group, especially with lack of stacking here. Running my capped cleric on live, it was always a good thing having a druid around. Either a druid or a ranger anyway, always tried to add one to my group. Also my pref was to have a ranger that played like a ranger in my group, MA and CC can be quite valuable in many situations if done right, not to mention outdoor pulling skills. Since there are few rangers here, makes sense dungeon overcrowding is so prevalent on this server, effecting everyone.

[Daldaen]

I pretty much never want a druid in my group if I have the choice. Think that's a pretty common stance. Other classes can do the job better "Jack of all trades" classes sound good in theory but not so great in practice. Not to say I wouldn't invite a druid but definitely not my preference.

This and no, not every group has a Druid.

ESPECIALLY 50+. Karnors, perhaps there are Druids. Sebilis and HS, very rarely. A Druid getting into a king or crypt or HS South group is quite rare. However my non-60 cleric alt with 500k less in gear has no problem getting in those groups.

I dunno... I just feel like "these guys won't invite me to their group because I slow down their exp" isn't a compelling argument for a change that isn't in era (although is within the timeframe if you are simply counting days from Kunark launch to this fix, and ignoring the expansion that was released inbetween)

[Daywolf]

I pretty much never want a druid in my group if I have the choice. Think that's a pretty common stance. Other classes can do the job better "Jack of all trades" classes sound good in theory but not so great in practice. Not to say I wouldn't invite a druid but definitely not my preference.
And since most everyone is crowded into dungeons for lack of efficient outdoor groups (having no rangers), it makes it easier to choose a shammy over a druid if that's your pref. If groups were spread out more, then you would take what you can get in many situations. I think that if the server pop grows, overcrowding will get even worse. Anyway I'm more of a fan of DS on the MT and evaq for groups, so tends to be more my preference anyway. And yes, on live with my cleric, KC groups were more my thing, and a druid friendly spot.

[Baldur]

So to me being rejected from a group because your class doesn't bring anything to the group that other classes don't bring better is WAY different than being rejected from a group because you slow down their exp.

Also the remedy for exp penalty is way easier to do than fixing no one wanting druids in their group. What you're talking about is class balance and effectiveness. Exp penalty is just that, a penalty that is shared by the entire group. Not sure if you're trying to conflate the two here or what your point is.

[Swish]

Raise your hand if you would legitimately be upset if P99 devs decided to lift the class XP penalties prior to Velious.

Nobody? Thought so

Make it so

http://i.imgur.com/Nm4qnhb.gif

[iruinedyourday]

http://i.imgur.com/Nm4qnhb.gif

Yea remove them so what, I loose my respect for a lvl 60 ranger? I dont think so...

I prefer the class to be for the cool people who dgaf about penalties and stuff...

My 2 cents.

[loramin]

Yea remove them so what, I loose my respect for a lvl 60 ranger? I dont think so...

I prefer the class to be for the cool people who dgaf about penalties and stuff...

My 2 cents.

Really? So rather than have more diversity, and getting to see something different every now and then when you group, you'd rather keep the same popular classes we have now and have ... a few hipster classes?

[Glenzig]

And since most everyone is crowded into dungeons for lack of efficient outdoor groups (having no rangers), it makes it easier to choose a shammy over a druid if that's your pref. If groups were spread out more, then you would take what you can get in many situations. I think that if the server pop grows, overcrowding will get even worse. Anyway I'm more of a fan of DS on the MT and evaq for groups, so tends to be more my preference anyway. And yes, on live with my cleric, KC groups were more my thing, and a druid friendly spot.

But I thought you said that druid population was oversaturated? If there are that many druids, and the admittedly smaller portion of rangers that are "not allowed" in dungeon groups, then there should be more than enough people left to fill out these outdoor groups you keep going back to.

[Daywolf]

But I thought you said that druid population was oversaturated? If there are that many druids, and the admittedly smaller portion of rangers that are "not allowed" in dungeon groups, then there should be more than enough people left to fill out these outdoor groups you keep going back to.
What? More than enough what left? I see a lot of people just waiting it out in dungeons, or in lower level camps waiting for appropriate level camps to open up.

Outdoor groups can be fairly poor without tracking. There are some groups, like camping giant spawns etc, but roving mobs are a problem. Outdoors that was usually the work of the ranger, such as in OT or DL etc, pick and choose proper level mobs, which also allows multiple groups to be in close location if varying levels.

With lack of tracking in the game, it's often more efficient to just solo or duo rather than get into a full group hunting roving mobs, let alone waiting for maybe hours to get in an over crowded dungeon at the right camp. And for the over pop of druids, that's usually the case, a lot of solo, which they do well anyway.

[iruinedyourday]

Really? So rather than have more diversity, and getting to see something different every now and then when you group, you'd rather keep the same popular classes we have now and have ... a few hipster classes?

yea

[Daywolf]

http://i.imgur.com/Nm4qnhb.gif
Yeah but anyway you cut it, it's "not classic". Be it either the mechanics or the game pop environment.

This short documentary explains it in meticulous detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4PzpxOj5Cc

[Glenzig]

I've said it already, but, I'm all for lifting the hybrid penalty early if the devs decide they want to. I just don't think it will make the impact that you think it will make. People pack into dungeons because that's where the best loot typically is, and the XP rates are better than outdoor zones. They even discriminate as to which dungeons at certain levels are better. There are a lot of dungeons that are almost completely unused. Befallen is a good example of this. One of the best Zems in the game, but no real chance for good sellable loot. I really honestly think that if they go ahead and lift the hybrid penalty early, its just going to be more of the same dungeon groups with a ranger instead of 2 rogues. There would probably be more rangers soloing in outdoor zones, but I can't see why people would all of a sudden be clamoring to get in a group with them. Sorry I just do t see your argument being that valid.
That being said. I would support hybrid penalties being lifted early. But I'm not going to stew over it if they aren't.

[Daywolf]

I've said it already, but, I'm all for lifting the hybrid penalty early if the devs decide they want to. I just don't think it will make the impact that you think it will make. People pack into dungeons because that's where the best loot typically is, and the XP rates are better than outdoor zones. They even discriminate as to which dungeons at certain levels are better. There are a lot of dungeons that are almost completely unused. Befallen is a good example of this. One of the best Zems in the game, but no real chance for good sellable loot. I really honestly think that if they go ahead and lift the hybrid penalty early, its just going to be more of the same dungeon groups with a ranger instead of 2 rogues. There would probably be more rangers soloing in outdoor zones, but I can't see why people would all of a sudden be clamoring to get in a group with them. Sorry I just do t see your argument being that valid.
That being said. I would support hybrid penalties being lifted early. But I'm not going to stew over it if they aren't.

I pref xp over loot, myself. It's not like I can't just go to EC and buy the gear I actually need. And again, people packed into just a small number of zones, this is not the norm, there is a reason, which I've addressed. If we had a pop like as on early live, this problem would be screaming out at you. This only retards population growth. Well as long as you are happy getting your loots in the over camped dungeons with a low pop server, but too bad this server wasn't more balanced to retain more of a population.

[Glenzig]

I pref xp over loot, myself. It's not like I can't just go to EC and buy the gear I actually need. And again, people packed into just a small number of zones, this is not the norm, there is a reason, which I've addressed. If we had a pop like as on early live, this problem would be screaming out at you. This only retards population growth. Well as long as you are happy getting your loots in the over camped dungeons with a low pop server, but too bad this server wasn't more balanced to retain more of a population.

I agree with you. I favor XP more than loot. But it appears that we are in the minority.

[Daywolf]

I agree with you. I favor XP more than loot. But it appears that we are in the minority.
Rlly? because with say a lvl20 ranger, un-twinked, solo, I can make more than 1kpp in an evening, in outdoor zones, and even getting a bit of xp enough to be headed towards leveling. Even with a lvl30 in unrest basement, nothing remotely close to that.... or even lvl40. Trade secret, but 1kpp sometimes more, with opportunity for far more, no duping involved. Soooo.... maybe the vast majority of people that play this game never really played it before? I mean if waiting long periods of time to get into a group and then random for a 100pp item once or twice an evening is more important than xp, I'm at a loss for why so many players flock to dungeons, at least enough to overload every dungeon around faydark. I know there are quest items... but usually those just rot.... Rlly? they are there for the loot? I'll buy some of that loot :D

[Glenzig]

I'd hate to have seen your response if I had disagreed.

[Xadion]

Sooo… now that everyone agrees the xp penalties should be removed we can discuss the mechanics. I have this faded distant memory of all the hybrids getting a level or two when the penalty was removed as they kept their current XP but their XP table was changed. Is this how it worked? Is this how it should work?

Personally I would rather have my level remain unchanged when the penalty is removed.

I am sure the nilb-elithia patch police can find it- but I don't think or remember getting the penalty exp back- that would have been literally like 8+ levels for a 50+ player- we did get exp back and what I do remember (about 20-40% of a level) given back because something was not calculated correctly, but I could be wrong- but I most deff remember reading something and then logging on with more exp than yesterday... I was also a human SK on live from April 99 til GoD/OOW era

[Rattle Squirrell]

I'd hate to have seen your response if I had disagreed.

LOL I was thinking the exact same thing

bahaha

[fadetree]

If they agreed to remove the penalties early I would not care if they gave me 'extra' exp or not, as long as I didn't lose any relative position to the the level I'm in.

[Rattle Squirrell]

18 page post.......wonder if a Dev or something will ever chime in and stop us from spinning our wheels.

Tell us it sounds like a good idea, or just tell us to fuck off they don't care it's their server.

Either way lol

[Daldaen]

18 page post.......wonder if a Dev or something will ever chime in and stop us from spinning our wheels.

Tell us it sounds like a good idea, or just tell us to fuck off they don't care it's their server.

Either way lol

I'm sure a dev has chimed in on the 10+ posts identical to this in the past 3-4 years.

[Tulnavara]

I'm sure a dev has chimed in on the 10+ posts identical to this in the past 3-4 years.

Just like they don't answer red variance or server wipe post #2141 any more. It's been answered enough times already. Give it a rest.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Just like they don't answer red variance or server wipe post #2141 any more. It's been answered enough times already. Give it a rest.

Just typed fuck off like 20 times in like 10-12 seconds.

Wouldn't be a huge waste of time....

[iruinedyourday]

I'd hate to have seen your response if I had disagreed.

lol I read his comment a couple times trying to figure out why he disagreed with you agreeing XD

man #1 sayz: I agree.

man #2 sayz: orlly? well this is why ur wrong.

man #1 sayz: I uh....

[sox7d]

Some men just want to watch the world rustle.

[fadetree]

lol +1 internetz

[iruinedyourday]

Some men just want to watch the world rustle.

:D

[kaev]

Some men just want to watch the world rustle.

That's terribly sexist dude. I'm pretty sure that at least two of the thousands of trolls I've encountered were RL female, maybe three. And think of the trannies man, think of the trannies!

[Grizzled]

The hybrid exp penalty was one of the disappointments for me, from p99. Its one thing to try and recreate with a classic approach. but it is another thing to replicate some serious mistakes in the games evolution. Mana stones never should have been in the game. They were broken then and were broken when put in p99. Hybrid penalties do effect groupings, I experienced this on live as well as p99.

These mistakes were done by a development team working a new concept. As well as a player base grasping a new concept. These things were removed for a reason.
Fast forward to P99. Development team working an old concept and a player base that can play the game blind folded. There is a large difference between the 2 timelines.

Mana stones and hybrid penalties for classic sake....... is like smashing your thumb with a hammer, for the sake of nostalgia. It doesnt make sense to repeat a mistake.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Mana stones and hybrid penalties for classic sake....... is like smashing your thumb with a hammer, for the sake of nostalgia. It doesnt make sense to repeat a mistake.

worst analogy ever?

[iruinedyourday]

worst analogy ever?

yes. That's gotta be one of the worst analogies I've ever heard.

-Sugar, its like a box of chocolate. Your banana bring pants lost and found.

[Daywolf]

I'd hate to have seen your response if I had disagreed.Well it's true, played my ~mid-lvl ranger yesterday for the evening, focusing on making plats. Turned about 1.3kpp the evening, far more than I'd make in a dungeon at the level. The only thing is it helps that there are only like 12 other ranger in the game at the same level hehe, and none on I'm sure. There were like 10 people in the main zone I was running, at most, and only one ranger at lvl43 for a while and not bothering my hunt, he was just working on xp. Pretty much run the zone picking what I want, getting those very rare drops. I could never do that on live back then, always competition, would have been four or five other rangers around the same level at least.

[Glenzig]

Well it's true, played my ~mid-lvl ranger yesterday for the evening, focusing on making plats. Turned about 1.3kpp the evening, far more than I'd make in a dungeon at the level. The only thing is it helps that there are only like 12 other ranger in the game at the same level hehe, and none on I'm sure. There were like 10 people in the main zone I was running, at most, and only one ranger at lvl43 for a while and not bothering my hunt, he was just working on xp. Pretty much run the zone picking what I want, getting those very rare drops. I could never do that on live back then, always competition, would have been four or five other rangers around the same level at least.

I wasn't arguing your play style though. I was saying that you're in the minority with the way you prefer to level. Your post bears evidence to that.

[Hogfather]

I do a lot of grouping in the mid level through the night shift.

At least in our time zone we don't give a shit about penalties, can you do the role is much more important. I've lost more exp on unrezzed deaths and CR downtime from retarded pure classes than has been sucked up by hybrid penalties.

If anything hybrids on p1999 seem to generally be more competent than pures, especially for tanking ... though warrior taunt sucks and I'm an enchanter so I'm gonna be biased there.

For example: Djinosaur is an Iksar SK right, one of the heaviest XP sinks, but he's fucken good at what he does and support players readily join his groups.

[Daywolf]

I wasn't arguing your play style though. I was saying that you're in the minority with the way you prefer to level. Your post bears evidence to that.
What...? wasn't levleing my ranger. In fact I have never had plans to cap a ranger here, at least not until after vel if I decide to at that point. But point is, dungeons are not exactly the best place to go for xp, mainly because they are overpopulated. Yet, that's what people do, due to the better xp mod there. But they go anyway, then get frustrated. And then loot, maybe lguk or something as you level, but even then you are not going to be making off like a bandit every evening. People in dungeons are more worried about xp, or there simply would not be an issue with hybrids. If they were worried about loot, then more people would be taking advantage of the lack of good trackers in the game, hunting the mobs that drop more than one would get in a dungeon group. But yeah, if it were about loot in dungeons, what issue would there be with adding hybrids to the groups? It's about xp.