People that never played classic EQ

[Velerin]

I was just curious about people that play p1999 but never played classic EQ back in the day (too young, never tried, etc.).
What brought you here? What do you like about it? How different was it going from more ez mode MMOs to this. "An even con monster! That should be an easy solo!"

I played eq from 1999-2004/5 or so. Never really could get into another mmo, stopped playing anything for years, and then found this server last year and loving it.

[Xorekle]

Yeah, other mmo's are kind of...junky. Darkfall is ok, EVE is ok, rest so far, are all EZ mode. Some are fun for a while, but still easy.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I brought a friend of mine here. Never played classic.

Say hit to Dubecrisk, 36 Mage.

[Shortin]

Hit

[Esheon]

I started just after Ykesha came out, so I technically never played "Classic". Even so, it was still a lot harder than any MMO I've played since. My start time is probably why I hate Luclin so much, though... Soooo much time spent in PC.

A couple of games came close to post-PoP EQ at the beginning, but got knocked down real fast... EQ2 and Vanguard had group content in the newbie zones & more difficult travel at launch, and Commonlands/Antonica had more group content than solo content... now it's all solo & all fast travel. (Well, Vanguard was until it closed down.) The last expansion I played in EQ2 (Odus), I soloed to cap, never grouped except in instances, and could tank most of those instances on a frickin rogue (Ratonga Swashbuckler).

Other MMOs never even tried to be difficult... WoW, MxO, SWG, SWtOR, LotRO (even though I have a lifetime sub I never play anymore), they all started easy and stayed easy.

Project 1999? I have my fair share of "d'oh" moments (especially in forgetting to re-mem spells after death), but I'm lovin' it.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

"Hi"

[Stormlight]

I began playing after Luclin, and love classic. I love the giant world where everything isn't less than 5 minutes away. There is still content completely unknown to me, and I love that. For example, Kithicor Forest. About all I know about that place is it's freakin scary at night, and there's an epic fight there. So much to still explore. And the game doesn't just hand you stuff, and it's unforgiving. I have to work to progress, and I enjoy the feeling of accomplishment while still enjoying the experience. Class/race restrictions, size restrictions, deity restrictions are all great. I could ramble, but I'll stop.

[captnamazing]

Barely played during luclin to PoP time cause i was a wee lad
I came back cause this is the best MMO

[Eliseus]

I started just after Ykesha came out, so I technically never played "Classic". Even so, it was still a lot harder than any MMO I've played since. My start time is probably why I hate Luclin so much, though... Soooo much time spent in PC.

A couple of games came close to post-PoP EQ at the beginning, but got knocked down real fast... EQ2 and Vanguard had group content in the newbie zones & more difficult travel at launch, and Commonlands/Antonica had more group content than solo content... now it's all solo & all fast travel. (Well, Vanguard was until it closed down.) The last expansion I played in EQ2 (Odus), I soloed to cap, never grouped except in instances, and could tank most of those instances on a frickin rogue (Ratonga Swashbuckler).

Other MMOs never even tried to be difficult... WoW, MxO, SWG, SWtOR, LotRO (even though I have a lifetime sub I never play anymore), they all started easy and stayed easy.

Project 1999? I have my fair share of "d'oh" moments (especially in forgetting to re-mem spells after death), but I'm lovin' it.

Please show me all your characters in all of those games that have completed all of the end game (which is the majority of the game). Thank you. Apparently auto-attacking the majority of content is hard.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Ya I fail to see how EverQuest is difficult in any sense.

The only hard part is finding the time to devote to level on an extremely snail-pace scale of exp/

[Stormlight]

I think people call it "hard" because it's a simple way to describe it, even though it doesn't do a very good job. EQ doesn't pander to you the way most MMOs do, so you have to work more. People actually care if they die in EQ. Experience loss and travel time mean you have to be more careful when you're deep in a dungeon. This type of thing is what they mean when they say it's hard. Hardcore is a more appropriate term probably.

[Nirgon]

Some people are bad @ the game.

Some worse than others.

Skill involved?

[Velerin]

hah, this "hard" discussion comes up everytime. Fighting in eq is not hard, end game is not hard, even the slow progression is not hard. However, it's basically the only game I've ever played where death is such a huge consequence and actually scary (talking about actually in 1999 not now playing). We know so much about the game now, death is much more avoidable. I remember on live my first main was a necro and I was stuck on 34/35 for like 2 weeks (no more book!, death, back to book, no more book!, death repeat). Now I rarely die outside of raids.

[stormlord]

I think people call it "hard" because it's a simple way to describe it, even though it doesn't do a very good job. EQ doesn't pander to you the way most MMOs do, so you have to work more. People actually care if they die in EQ. Experience loss and travel time mean you have to be more careful when you're deep in a dungeon. This type of thing is what they mean when they say it's hard. Hardcore is a more appropriate term probably.
I have another way of describing it. Did anyone here play the old nintendo games from the 80's and early 90's? The ones where you'd play and die repeatedly, trying to figure out the way to beat a level? And you had to redo the WHOLE level when you died? That's kind of like what EQ is for an MMO.

It's kind of like throwing a noob into an arena with other veteran opponents and strong but hungry lions. The noob WILL die oftener than if they were up against noob opponents and weak (but presently well fed) lions. If one supposes that the strategies one can learn in the arena are the same irregardless of veteran or noob opponents then one is much closer to defining what EQ is trying to do. In effect, all that one can learn to avoid death is squeezed into a much smaller space, so the time a player has to learn them in order to prevent death is very small. This means the inevitable result is a lot of deaths.

Peolpe who don't like these games will descrbie them as "If you didn't die you'd beat the game in a week." These people want challenge which is based on intelligence, not threat.

So when people say EQ is hard they mean the THREAT is higher, thus, the need to be aware of what's going on is higher. They do not mean the game requires more intelligence.

Of course, EQ can be very tedious when camping something. That's probably when EQ shows its worst. When camping becomes a science, all threat is gone, and thus the whole reason for EQ being fun is also gone. EQ's threat meter is highest when you're delving into a dungeon and moving around, not staying in one place. And this is even more true if you're going to NEW places, as opposed to ones you already know well.

To like a game like htis one must want THREAT, not necessarily intellectual challenges. I'd compare this to climbing cliffs WITHOUT gear versus just playing basketball. While basketball is probably more intellectually and socially challenging, climbing cliffs without gear is more of a THREAT.

I am saying the principle difference between this game and modern MMO's is death has a much higher consequence. You can lose hours of time in terms of experience and travel time. There're even cases where you'll be unable to retrieve your corpse without a lot more help then is currently available to you. The game does not have more things to learn, but the threat level is increased.

Thbis is kind of like hte "hardcore" characters in Diablo 2. Death was permanent.

[Glenzig]

Golf is harder than football. Football is more dependant on strength and agility and fast reflexes, for that reason some may say that it takes more skill than Golf. But golf is just harder.
Its far more simplistic than football. Hit a ball into a hole in as few swings as possible.
But it is way harder to hit that stupid ball I to that stupid hole than it is to throw a football 40-50 yards, or catch said pass.
Its just harder. Its just one of those things.
That's how EQ is for me verses other MMOs. Its just harder.

[stormlord]

Golf is harder than football. Football is more dependant on strength and agility and fast reflexes, for that reason some may say that it takes more skill than Golf. But golf is just harder.
Its far more simplistic than football. Hit a ball into a hole in as few swings as possible.
But it is way harder to hit that stupid ball I to that stupid hole than it is to throw a football 40-50 yards, or catch said pass.
Its just harder. Its just one of those things.
That's how EQ is for me verses other MMOs. Its just harder.
There's also the aspect that to gain good experience in EQ you generally have to group up with others. This could also be what some players mean when they say "harder". Note that "good experience" isn't necessarily the group experience bonus, but the reduction in deaths because of having more utility or having access to a rezzer or porter or having someone who knows what they're doing. . Saved time = more experience.

But just working with others doesn't mean the game is more intellectual chalenging. A solo game can have just as mcuh intellectual challenge as a group game. I see no reason to discriminate. Although maybe group games come more naturally because w'eve worked with each other for millions of years.

[stormlord]

But I think my ultimate oipinion is most players say EQ is "hard" because of the temporal losses suffered after dying. Whether it's the experience or the lost time due to your bind point being far away from where you died or it's your corpse stuck deep inside a dungeon or you didn't /loc before you died.

We all know that feeling when we die: "DAMN!" That's why we think it's hard. We feel that familiar pain and then the "Why didn't I do XYZ? I'm stupid!! F*** it!" Takes a while to cool down. Sometimes go afk. The ones who stay long term are the ones who WANT this feeling. They want the THREAT.

We're the oens who respond wel to being slapped on the wrist by the teacher. Without the slap, we just lose interest. I don't think we're masochists. I think we're lazier than normal and need the slap. Maybe I"m being too optimistic? Going back to the analogy I made earlier to people who climb cliffs without equipment, maybe the THREAT makes things feel more immersive to us? Meh, I still think it wakes us up.

I think we're the same kind of players who want negative consequences in games too. We want to be slapped when we fail. Again, it's the whole threat thing. We want bad choices to increase the threat. It's not all about learning with us, otherwise these games we play would have too much downtime/dying.

[Fael]

I've afk liched myself to death probably 10 times on my necro.

Is it hard to not lich yourself to death? Does it take skill? :(

The penalty for failure is ten times harder than any other game. Particularly when it happens while I'm in hs north by myself, and it's noon on a Tuesday, and I have to go naked and without water into hs to find a sperm to get the key then go find my corpse and drag it to the zone line. Then I got to wait for someone to zone in for a Rez which won't happen for hours to try to talk someone to come help me out.

That's what makes eq hard. It's not forgiving on those who make imprudent decisions, which is almost everyone.

Dolic

[quido]

I never played EQ or any MMO before P99. I knew people who were into EQ and then WoW, but I always just preferred less committal games like D2 and Counterstrike. My friend suggested P99 to me in its infancy, and since I didn't have anything to do for a number of weeks, I said "fuck it." I guess I haven't really looked back much since.

I like how on a server like this you have to wear your reputation. Games like CS and D2 have too many anonymous jackasses.

[Xorekle]

No instancing, makes a true mmo; starting to feel this more and more. Your reputation lives and dies with you, quite literally, nothing to go hide it in.

[radda]

the game was hard, plain and simple. thats why we like it. its simple in design and its fun fighting a force.

i always enjoyed getting jumped as a kid, with my friends, from the neighborhood trash.
it was challenging and i made the best of it.

[scythic]

I think part of the difficulty of the games also comes from amassing gear. We don't get a new gear for collecting 6 flowers from the ground. It takes time, luck and a group of friends. This gets watered down over time by twinking and such but when the game is pure, on a fresh server, it gets pretty difficult.
MMO's take a different kind of skill. I would say that patience is a skill. I would say social skills are a large part of EQ. Game knowledge is a huge part of being a good EQ player as well.

[Esheon]

Please show me all your characters in all of those games that have completed all of the end game (which is the majority of the game). Thank you. Apparently auto-attacking the majority of content is hard.

Snark aside...

In WoW and MxO, I mostly just did PvP, though I did tag along in a few raids. In SWG I was a crafter with property on most planets in the game.

In EQ2, there wasn't much raiding to start, but my Conjuror did have a prismatic. Guild fell apart in DoF (drama, ugh), so some friends and I went to WoW for a while. I came back shortly before TSO came out, and got Conjuror/Paladin/Shaman/Swashbuckler with Mythical epics. During TSO, I was single-grouping WoE and handing the loot out to guildies to get them ready for the 4-group raids. Then when SF came out you pretty much had to drop a lot of your previous raid loot and get the SF heroic stuff so you had the new stats they'd added. As stated, I was tanking high-end SF group instances on a Swashbuckler, and we had gotten through about half of the SF raid content. I took a break from gaming in general and did some John Denver hippy stuff for a while, and I haven't been back to EQ2 since (though I keep meaning to log in and see what they did with Velious).

LotRO didn't have much in the way of raid content either. Well before MoM, the Balrog was a regular farm for us... We could single-group him, so much like I later did in EQ2/WoE, we brought a second group of under-equipped guildies and let them loot everything. My main, Eshwulf, was considered to be one of the best Minstrels on the Elendilmir server around that time. When MoM came out, we did the whole "race to the top" thing again, and I hit The Watcher a few times before the guild died off (drama strikes again).

Vanguard had no raid content at all until after I left the game. I did however have a capped paladin and shaman, both in full Ichta armour, which was as end-game as it got back then.

In SWtoR, I currently have a capped Operative (heal spec) in a mix of Arkanian & Verpine gear. I've done all 55 HMFPs and a several of the HMOps. I haven't gotten very lucky on the gear drops so far, so I've bought Verpine instead of looting Underworld... I'm at the point now where if I replace any more of the Arkanian I'll lose my set bonus, so the only decent upgrade is for me to win some raid loot rolls. Of course, I've been letting SWtoR slide in favor of P99 now...

So, while I may not have completed "all" of the endgame content (why go back and raid Faydwer when I have VP and epics to finish?), I have been just behind the hardcore guilds in most of the games I've played. I think I'm qualified to say which games are easier than others.

As others in this thread have stated, "hard" or "difficult" aren't really the best words to use, but they're the ones that come to mind. The game itself is not difficult to PLAY (In fact, I find it kind of relaxing compared to other, faster-paced games). Primarily, when I say the EQ is "hard", I'm primarily talking about two "game mechanics"...

1.) Limited Soloability
In just about any game on the market, you can easily solo to cap level on any class in the game. Some games even give you a pet or mercenary to follow you around and HELP you solo. Also, in many games only instanced content is group-required.

In Classic EQ, this just doesn't happen. Sure, a few classes can solo very well, but even then they're mostly doing outdoor zones with room to run around. If you want to explore a dark dungeon deep within the earth, you need some friends to come along.

2.) Penalty for Failure (or Stupidity)
Most games have little to no death penalty. In SWtoR and LotRO, I have no problem suiciding my character just to get somewhere faster... all it costs is a little cash for repairs. Back when I played WoW, you ran back to your corpse as an invincible ghost. In games like that, I do stupid stuff without even thinking of it. It's a feeling of "what the heck, it doesn't matter if I die".

By contrast, death in EQ has consequences. Even in the easiest circumstances (epic clicky cleric standing behind you), you still lose some experience and have to wait for rez effects to wear off. Most of the time people aren't so lucky... maybe your group's cleric only has a 50% rez, or you're being healed by a shaman who has NO rez, or you randomly died while running from one place to another and you can't convince a cleric to go out there and rez you. The mere fact that these consequences exist promotes a different style of play.

Oh, and 3.) The Endurance bar keeps impatient idiots from jumping around constantly when they get bored.

[Waedawen]

Mobs and dungeons DEMAND you 'Look Before Y Leap', consequences for death, player versus player competition (for environmental resources as WELL as dominance)

Put these ingredients into a crock pot and you get a good game

[Eliseus]

So I'm trying to compile a list of things between WoW, and project 1999. Let's also be fair and assume are talking about classic WoW, and not current WoW (even though a lot of stuff in current WoW is actually "harder") since we aren't talking about current EQ.

Leveling up

Everquest - Takes longer, hell levels, lots of jobs benefit from being in a group. Lose EXP upon death, can delevel. Little effort involved in the leveling process besides auto-attacking for the most part, unless you are a job like bard, or shaman (and even then, can put up buffs and call it a day).

WoW - More solo friendly to lvl for all jobs, fastest way to level is actually grouping and doing dungeons. Lose exp. Can't delevel. In terms of leveling, significantly faster than EQ. Classic rotations were very complex, except jobs like hunter who could macro a significant amount of their skills, but you still push more buttons than most if not all EQ classes.

Combat

EQ - most jobs involve just auto-attacking. I mean really, lets face it, a tank can just auto-attack. Melee can just auto-attack, you have a few other stuff you can use, but realistically, it's auto-attack quest. Again, stuff like bards and other classes will do more, but jobs like cleric just rotate CH rotations. On top of the zerg fest that exists in EQ, that strategies that were already very minimal, are almost (if not completely) non-existent.

WoW - combat leveling up can be 1 button (in classic as you got higher, it was more difficult to get away with this in higher level zones). Any serious content was several buttons, for all classes. There was not just 1 or 2 mechanics to watch out for on encounters, but several. Could not just auto-attack anything / send in a pet afk.

PvP

EQ - lawls

WoW - Amazing

Loot

EQ - Compete against other for claims on stuff, compete against guild members for loot.

WoW - Except for the World bosses who dropped loot that wasn't as good as raid loot (iirc) it was just compete against guild member for loot. Loot tables are significantly larger than EQ loot tables. Lockouts for raid encounters are 7 days guaranteed.

Factions

EQ - Factions are crazy in EQ and could in some instances be completely destroyed and never gained back. Faction grinding in EQ has got to be some of the grindiest stuff I've ever done / seen.

WoW - You couldn't really "destroy" your faction. If you were alliance you were alliance. If you were horde, you were horde. Some of the neutral factions you could lose rep with. Gaining rep in comparison was a complete joke except for a couple of reps (insane in the membrane anyone?).

Money

Making money in both games imo is a joke, so won't even really touch that, I do know it's "harder" for others to make money in both, but assuming you have troubles making cash in 1, you would have troubles in the other. Both games have stuff that NPCs for decent amounts. Both have stuff that sells to players for decent amounts. I do know that WoW has the auction house which could be portrayed as an easier way to make cash since you can throw stuff up and log out. So I guess technically EQ has WoW beat in terms of difficulty here.

Skilling up

EQ - Crafting can be dreaful, some mats more annoying to come by. Combat skills are pretty annoying.

WoW - Crafting has always been pretty easy in WoW. Most mats are readily available and a joke to get. Had to clear certain raid encounters to even have a chance to learn how to create certain recipes. Combat skills were easy to lvl up, but seemed to significantly slow down closer to cap.

Maybe I missed a lot, but just from this, I wouldn't say EQ is just straight up "harder". I base a lot of my opinion on what is hard off of end game when I compare games because that is where a lot of the action goes on. The action I care about at least, and in terms of combat/end game, WoW is definitely significantly harder than EQ, hands down, but I could see why someone would think EQ is harder. There is a lot of aspects in EQ that wasn't necessarily hard, but very grindy, so the game definitely feels more rewarding in some aspects (like reputation), but harder? I wouldn't necessarily say it was harder. Maybe I don't know what I'm saying though, I view myself as someone that is just good at all games though, and I find it extremely easy to be someone that is good at EQ.

Also note that I haven't completely given a 100% in either classic EQ of classic WoW, but I do know the things I have listed to be true, so some stuff may be missing.

[Tovin]

An additional thought that wasn't mentioned above:

Skill is extremely meaningful in EQ. As a result, the game attracts hardcore players who like to know that their skills enable them to be a more effective player. What do I mean by this?

When I played EQ back in 1999 there was a HUGE range of game knowledge and skills. There were enchanters who took forever to mezz, monks who waiting for a mob to die before bringing the next (or perhaps lacked the ability to split), clerics who couldn't time a CH, and myriad other skill deficiencies. An unskilled group was not nearly as effective as a skilled one.

Additionally, skill opens a lot of doors in EQ as EQ gives you the opportunity to challenge yourself. Is it easy to zerg rush dragons with a 72 person raid? Of course. I don't think that's where people derive most of their fun. I think they derive fun from taking a group of 6 people and attempting to 1 group raid content. The same can be said for duoing a Named mob designed for a group. It's fun because your skill is often the difference between winning / dying. In the end, "challenge" in EQ is based on your play style -- and the game permits all levels of challenge.

[Redanger]

I had never played EQ until P99. Today I have a 60 shaman. It's a long rant... but this server has really infused me with the realization of why I miss the MMOs of old.

P99 has given me one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had - and I have played a lot of them.

A friend of mine who used to play EQ found the server and mentioned that I should give it a try. I really had no idea what I was getting myself into. The combat was so... slow. A monster equal level to me would send me running to the guards.

But I persevered because my friend was with me. And I found something that is missing from today's button mashing MMOs. Time to actually talk to your party. This is a crazy element to me. These days running a dungeon in WoW you literally join a queue, click 'accept', aoe down some mobs for 20 minutes and then go on your way - never to see these people again. Sometimes not a word is exchanged.

I found that grouping with certain people who synergized with my Shaman gave me an experience that today's MMOs cannot give. I was able to make friends so easily on P99 compared to other games. No one shit talked me not a single time when I told them I was new and I had no idea where I was going or what the fuck I was doing.

The things that really stick out to me that you just don't see anymore:

-There is an absolutely *ridiculous* synergy that exists from having different classes in a group. I swear - the first time I grouped with an Enchanter changed my life.

I was a terrible level 14 or so Shaman trying to fight some spiders in Guk and I met Mano, the Enchanter. I joined his guild <Azure Guard> in like 2012 before they even had a single raid-level player because he seemed overly willing to help me learn how to play EQ. I'm still in that guild.

And then I got Clarity for the first time... that spell changes how the game is played. I was addicted to crack. I didn't understand why people were "/ooc LF Crack pls". But now I did.

And before you know it we became a well oiled machine... Malo on the pet, Slows on the kill target. Ever since I first tried it - charm fighting with a hilariously overbuffed pet that will MURDER YOU if not handled perfectly - it has been my favorite way to play the game.

I leveled probably 10x faster with a single party member than I would have on my own because of group synergy and the fact that this random dude was so willing to help me. And he was grateful that I was willing to stick with him, because he was leveling insanely fast too. I have never had such a symbiotic experience in any game I've ever played.

-Grouping is a NECESSITY to get things that are worthwhile done. Forcing players to have to rely on each other creates a community. I have never played a game where I went out of my way to help others who were weaker than I except this one. I don't even know why I would spend time helping strangers when they asked. I guess I felt like I should pay it forward, as there were many strangers who helped me on my journey to 60.

-Player reputation matters! The server is small enough that you remember people's names but large enough that it is not a ghost town. This is a wonderful thing really. If someone is a dick to you on a cross-server group in today's MMOs you will never see them again and they can continue acting like an asshat. On P99 if someone tarnishes their reputation enough they might have to go so far as to reroll because no one will want anything to do with them. It keeps people accountable and friendly. Better to make friends now for when you need to form a raid group to complete your epic, ya know?

-Knowledge is the most powerful tool in EQ, and there are so many deep nuances to every zone and most classes are fairly deep. It was amazing to me what I could do as a Shaman once I learned the layout of a zone, and once I figured out how to canni-dance. And honestly, a lot of it is not documented - even today. It's in player's heads. People just *know* things that other people don't. This is so much different than current MMOs. I swear I feel like I have played the next WoW expansion before it's even been released everything is datamined and published so hard.

-Absolute Immersion. It's really a great thing that travel is not so easy on P99. Getting on my flying mount and pointing in whatever direction I need to go really doesn't make me feel connected to the game. And it sure as hell doesn't feel like I'm exploring things. EQ really sucks you in because of all of the danger that exists in the world and it just feels alive having to do things like avoid guards because I'm a big ugly Troll.

--

All of these things really make EQ on P99 for me. The discovery of new things. The fact that grouping is rewarded so heavily. The fact that there is enough time to actually have a conversation with people in your group and actually get to know them. And then since the community is just the right size you will actually see them again in the future.

---

Shoutout to Slitherfizzler and Mano. My two friends who really got me into this server. I really thought I would never find a reason to stay up all night and go to work exhausted over a video game like I did with school as a teenager ever again... but P99 did.

[new player]

I couldn't imagine starting out playing this game recently. This game is extremely hard in my opinion.

[Ganjar]

I would never say classic EQ was hard, however corpse runs and experience loss made me wanna take the Fetal Position and cry.

Gates of Discord was balls to the wall hard, not so much classic EQ.

[Hogfather]

EQ is brutal, grindy and unforgiving. Skill requirement depends on class and context.

[Laugher]

I was just curious about people that play p1999 but never played classic EQ back in the day (too young, never tried, etc.).
What brought you here? What do you like about it? How different was it going from more ez mode MMOs to this. "An even con monster! That should be an easy solo!"

I played eq from 1999-2004/5 or so. Never really could get into another mmo, stopped playing anything for years, and then found this server last year and loving it.


What brought me here ironically was my guidlie Zealen on Prexus around LoY. Dude was an iksar necro but lvled like it was 2000; never invested time in newer xpacs just kept on keeping on in the ones he had. Did most of my leveling pre-velious before Depths of Darkhollow/double xp highkeep instance weekened happened (ikr not classic)

[Cyph]

I'm the opposite; only played EQ back in '99 and none of the expacs. I've dabbled in other MMOs but frankly, nothing has kept my interest for long.

[webrunner5]

This game, P1999, IS hard if you never played it before. But if you have been playing EQ for years it is not hard. Now if you want to play 20 alts and try to get all of them to 60, well it would be really hard.

When I started in early 2000 I didn't know shit. So it was hard as hell, because nobody knew shit. Different story here now.

[Tulnavara]

Now if you want to play 20 alts and try to get all of them to 60, well it would be really hard.

You're confusing difficulty and time consumption.

[Eliseus]

You're confusing difficulty and time consumption.

That's the whole point I've been getting at that seems to blow right over everyone's head. YES EQ will take you MUCH longer than most, if not all MMOs, to get anywhere. NO IT IS NOT HARD.

There is this human flaw for nostalgia that usually consists of "when life was better". There is this idea for a lot of people who played EQ that it was "hard" in comparison to other MMOs, therefore it was better. So their nostalgia gets the better of them. I do admit, there may be certain aspects that could be considered "harder", which was pointed out in my previous points, but overall, no, EQ is not harder. And trying to point out how long it takes for some of you to level because auto-attacking x mob over and over while you pick your nose with the occasional running to zone line because some idiot/idiots in your group don't know how to play does not constitute any level of difficulty that is superior to the complexity of mechanics that exist in modern day MMOs. It just doesn't and if you think so, well, you are probably bad at playing games in general.

[iruinedyourday]

I think once you've mastered it its not hard. Like anything that is hard.

But man turn EQ on for the first time, not knowing how or where to go and nothing is there to tell you what to do?

Hard.

I can beat ninja gaiden, doesn't mean that game is easy.

[Kimja]

I played classic ERA, and it was my first MMO experience. EQ is what made me love MMOs, and nothing has ever come close to the challenge that EQ provided. I met so many friends in EQ that I still talk to today.

P99 is no different. I love community here, and although the raid scene is a bit skewed, this server is by far the SECOND best MMO I've ever played (sorry devs, classic EQ beats you)!

[Oooruk]

You need to remember that when EQ first launched almost all the players had never played an mmo before. There was no consolidated source of information like there is today (the wiki), people were on dial up connections, it was 1999 and the internet wasn't even totally accepted by mainstream society.

Imagine rolling as a level 1 character in this environment. Imagine rolling a shaman, getting to level 5 and trying to figure what spells you need to buy or that you can even BUY new spells. Every single game mechanic needed to figured out and learned, every single class and their role needed to be figured out and learned. People who say EQ "isn't hard" take all of this for granted today. Back then a very small proportion of the population even used the internet, let alone knew how to play games. Today peoples grandparents are playing games on tablets.

Then along comes DAoC (which is way, way harder and more competitive than EQ could ever have hoped to be. In fact no pve game even holds a candle to daoc in terms of "hardness"). In DAoC I pretty much intuitively what each class would do, how to play the game, how to spec (to a certain extent), so starting seemed "easier".

Now comes WoW. I had mastered how to play MMOs by this point. At launch I knew what every classes role was and how to spec them, how to gear them, how to work the economy, how to form a group, how to lead a raid, all of this from launch. Yes some of the encounters were "difficult" but once you'd beat them they became "easy".

In conclusion, what I *think* people mean by difficulty is that when EQ was out none of us knew what we were doing and had to learn how to play games. When WoW launched we were MMO masters and could easily burn through content.

[forensic]

EQ is hard because there is a lot more to it than just "the mechanics". Learning to play EQ is about learning hundreds of different idiosyncratic bugs about everything. It's about learning to find your way without maps or wikis or websites.

Remember back when there were no maps for EQ, or when the maps that people made would be very inaccurate? The EQAtlas maps are still inaccurate in many ways for many zones.

This makes EQ harder than games that had database websites at launch like WOW. I remember DAOC had all the game's math publicly known and published on easy to use websites in beta.

EQ is hard because you had to figure it out yourself. p99 is still hard because you still have to figure out many things yourself. EQ gives you lots of room to be a terrible player or to dominate the game.

For instance, you can totally fuck yourself over in EQ by picking a bad race/class combo, choosing bad stat allocation, and then using the wrong gear. It's very easy for a newbie to gimp themselves.

Twinks can make the game Easy Mode by using high level items at low levels. But people who don't twink or don't have the knowledge of the best ways to twink can gimp themselves and be useless.

In EQ you can play your character so poorly that no amount of time investment will allow you to level. Your lost xp to gained xp ratio can be more than 1 because you're not able to effectively manage aggro, or avoid adds, or strafe-run to the zoneline to avoid deaths.

In WOW, by comparison, there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO NOT TO WIN. In WoW it doesn't matter how bad you are, you will still gain levels and win the game. WoW holds your hand which is what makes it easy.

Wow's actual encounter mechanics at the high end are better designed, but this doesn't make wow harder, because those mechanics are easy in all games. EQ is not hard because it has difficult combat mechanics, it's hard because it has difficult game mechanics as a whole, is riddled with bugs, and doesn't hold your hand or teach you anything.

In EQ you're on your own and without a lot of effort and knowledge it's easy to be a perma-noob. In 1999 there were many many people who would play for a year and never made it past level 20.

In wow, everyone makes it to max level. It's just a matter of time. There is no strategy involved.

Which brings me to my final point... EQ is about strategy far more than tactics. WOW might make you dodge the AE of some raid boss and so on according to a script laid out by the devs, but in EQ most wins are determined before the fight.

Some classes have major tactical skill involved, where good tactical play means the difference between winning and losing: enchs are my favorite example of this. If you're not a twinked ench with dominating gear, there are very sensitive timings to everything and not timing it right is the difference between death and victory.

To say that all of EQ is autoattack is to show that you haven't played all the classes. The autoattack amount varies greatly.

Back in wow I wrote a macro to play my rogue (before they nerfed this in-game feature) and all I had to do to be maximally effective was spam 1 button. In addition, since the game was wow and everything is hand-holded, there are few bugs, everything is on a clear questline, etc, there was nothing else to do either. Group composition in wow doesn't really matter because Blizzard designed it to not really matter--you can make do with anything. The instances that you go questing for are always the perfect level range and no amount of skill or planning can allow you to take on content that is harder for your level and so on.

Anyway to say that EQ is easier because the COMBAT mechanics are SOMETIMES simpler is to totally miss the point of what makes EQ hard. It's not just combat mechanics but everything else that you do in the game from travel, to pulling, to group composition, to twinking/not-twinking, to choosing where to level, how to level, managing your group, managing your time, avoiding XP loss, etc.

If you want to see how hard EQ is just get any person whose first MMO was WOW and throw them into EQ *WITHOUT* giving them any advice or inside knowledge. Throw them into the game blind without the help of any wikis or twinking or expert advice or clarification. See how they do.

I've done this experiment and it's always crash and burn... they don't make it to level 2 before saying "Wow games used to be HARD"

[Non Quixote]

To say that all of EQ is autoattack is to show that you haven't played all the classes. The autoattack amount varies greatly.
Agreed, if all someone is doing in EQ is autoattacking, they're almost certainly doing it wrong.

I didn't get into EQ at the launch, in fact I didn't subscribe until Luclin came out, so P99 is the closest that I've been to "classic" EQ. I did play classic WoW, beginning a few months before BC went live. Admittedly I wasn't a dedicated WoW player, I only logged in when I was bored with EQ or tired of LFG. Still, I played that WoW account for about a year, left and then re-subbed in the middle of WotLK, then drifted in and out until just a few months ago. EQ on the other hand I played for almost 8 years straight, from 2001 to 2009.

I found the levelling in WoW PvE to be butt easy. Bread crumb quests that rewarded great xp for minimal effort, along with rewarded gear that was at least good enough to get you through a few levels plus fair to decent coin. The few "group" quests in WoW were easy enough for you and a friend or two to power through in a few minutes.

You could push more buttons in WoW if you wanted to, but most just macro'd a one button rotation that worked pretty well for most classes.

Tie into a mob or mobs that are beating you into jelly? That's okay, just run away because in WoW they'll give up after a few dozen yards. Heck, even if you die it isn't like there's any real penalty.

I could go on, but I'd just be repeating what most have already said. There's a reason that WoW was referred to as the "kiddy pool" of MMOs almost from launch.

[Eliseus]

EQ obviously isn't just auto-attacking, the point is, the bad players in other MMOs can still be good at EQ because there isn't any complexity to the combat that requires more than auto-attacking. But again, to not sound like a broken record, I'm giving an aspect of a game that isn't hard, yet you guys keep going in full blown circles that lvling in EQ is hard, when it's not, and you base that off the idea that you can lvl faster in WoW, therefore EQ is hardest game ever! It is laughable to say the least. I'll bite though and break down how most your parties and will be.

Warrior - auto attack
Monk - auto attack, maybe a kick, mostly auto attack
Rogue - auto attack, back stab
Mage - send in pet, maybe nuke
Wizard - nuke, rest for 100 years
Shaman - buff, afk, maybe heal, maybe debuff
Druid - buff, afk, maybe heal, maybe nuke
Enchanter - buff, debuff, cc
Bard - auto attack, twist songs (probably the closest job you get to modern day MMOs in terms of consistently needing to do something).

sorry, don't want to continue list, getting too repetitive with how simple EQ is.

Now, I love EQ, and it is really still my favorite MMO of all time, but that is because of Nostalgia, and has nothing to do with it's difficulty, now does it suck when I die in EQ? You bet, but being a good player, I would assume you don't die, just like when I play other MMOs I don't die. You guys act like EQ is harder because of stuff like death, like it is part of your lvling experience that you must act idiotic and put yourself into some kind of situation where you have to die. Don't be bad. Etc... etc... blah blah blah, same old arguments that you guys won't concede too know matter how illogical your guys are blah blah I'm the best blah blah blah

[iruinedyourday]

Enchanter - buff, debuff, cc, Stare at your screen unblinking so haste pet doesnt turn around and wipe group

nobut, When I play EQ its like, pacify pacify, root, mez, stun, AOE MEZ, charm, agro root, malo, AGRO, root backup, BACKUP! stun PATCH HEAL, root, malo, slow, pacify, pacify, melee, slow, root loot, random, pacify, root root, slow, agro malo slow, STUN AOE MEZ TWITCH FAST! TWITCH! heal, root heal, agro..

shit is fucking gnarly!!!

or, its like, root, dot, watch re-runs of Sliders and TNG.

Both are awesome.

[Nubben]

Warrior - auto attack
Monk - auto attack, maybe a kick, mostly auto attack
Rogue - auto attack, back stab
Mage - send in pet, maybe nuke
Wizard - nuke, rest for 100 years
Shaman - buff, afk, maybe heal, maybe debuff
Druid - buff, afk, maybe heal, maybe nuke
Enchanter - buff, debuff, cc
Bard - auto attack, twist songs (probably the closest job you get to modern day MMOs in terms of consistently needing to do something).


Put together a group with any six of these playing like this and see how it goes. Your over simplification of EQ is laughable.

[Kytross]

Grouping in EQ is fairly easy, but grouping in any MMO is fairly easy. Soloing in EQ is difficult, even for classes built for it.

EQ soloing requires solid resource management (Mana, Health) because the resource pool is small. There is generally enough mana to kill 2 dark blues, one at a time, with damage spells and no resists or fizzles. With level earned gear there's enough health for a melee to kill 2 dark blues, one at a time, without getting healed, and no adds. Other MMOs give you more resources.

EQ only allows 8 spells to be memorized at a time. Pick them before the fight and choose them well, it's quite difficult to mem during solo play. Other MMOs let you cast any spell at any time.

EQ requires you to manage aggro in the zone. In other MMOs there was always somewhere to fight without getting adds. There is nothing like the Griffons in the commons in WoW or other solo focused MMO.

[Eliseus]

Put together a group with any six of these playing like this and see how it goes. Your over simplification of EQ is laughable.

Can't tell if serious.

[Schwing]

It's true. Depending on what you're doing, this game demands timing unheard of in games like WOW. In WOW, I might be a top player in a top guild, but my timing only determines if I'm doing an extra hundred dps per second or not. In this game, your timing is the difference between life and death, and you want to walk that line as close as you can for maximum exp/mana efficiency. It requires far more attention. I'm not saying this game is hard, but I am saying that if any game in this genre is hard, it's this one.

[forensic]

EQ obviously isn't just auto-attacking, the point is, the bad players in other MMOs can still be good at EQ because there isn't any complexity to the combat that requires more than auto-attacking. But again, to not sound like a broken record, I'm giving an aspect of a game that isn't hard, yet you guys keep going in full blown circles that lvling in EQ is hard, when it's not, and you base that off the idea that you can lvl faster in WoW, therefore EQ is hardest game ever! It is laughable to say the least. I'll bite though and break down how most your parties and will be.

Warrior - auto attack
Monk - auto attack, maybe a kick, mostly auto attack
Rogue - auto attack, back stab
Mage - send in pet, maybe nuke
Wizard - nuke, rest for 100 years
Shaman - buff, afk, maybe heal, maybe debuff
Druid - buff, afk, maybe heal, maybe nuke
Enchanter - buff, debuff, cc
Bard - auto attack, twist songs (probably the closest job you get to modern day MMOs in terms of consistently needing to do something).

sorry, don't want to continue list, getting too repetitive with how simple EQ is.

Now, I love EQ, and it is really still my favorite MMO of all time, but that is because of Nostalgia, and has nothing to do with it's difficulty, now does it suck when I die in EQ? You bet, but being a good player, I would assume you don't die, just like when I play other MMOs I don't die. You guys act like EQ is harder because of stuff like death, like it is part of your lvling experience that you must act idiotic and put yourself into some kind of situation where you have to die. Don't be bad. Etc... etc... blah blah blah, same old arguments that you guys won't concede too know matter how illogical your guys are blah blah I'm the best blah blah blah


You are literalizing the button presses. It does not matter how many buttons you push, what matters is how challenging it is to push the right buttons at the right time.

You are pretending that there is no knowledge or understanding required in order to do those behaviours. You've confused the end point with the start points.

Let's describe Texas Hold 'Em poker the way you describe EQ.

Texas Hold 'Em is sooo easy! Nothing happens! You don't even have to deal your own cards. You just bet, bet, pass, fold. It's such an easy game and nothing happens. There is so much downtime where people just stare at the table.

Whack-a-mole is way harder than Texas Hold 'Em. You ever seen someone play Whack-a-mole? They have to CONSTANTLY HIT THINGS. NON STOP. They NEVER stop hitting. Texas Hold Em is easy and stupid because there are FEWER ACTIONS BEING TAKEN.

So to summarize... you're so dumb that you think that because wow has more buttons to push it is a harder game. it's not. It's way easier. EQ is about strategy and tactics, careful planning, and teamwork. WOW is about mindless button mashing which 99.9% of the time allows you to win the game.

Part of what makes EQ hard is to idiosyncratic design and the bugs. So be it. It's still hard. On many dimensions. A master of the game may not mash the buttons... but that doesn't mean there is no skill or knowledge or careful decision making being applied. in EQ there usually is...even for the most seemingly boring class like a Wizard or Rogue.

[Nubben]

Warrior - auto attack
Monk - auto attack, maybe a kick, mostly auto attack
Rogue - auto attack, back stab
Mage - send in pet, maybe nuke
Wizard - nuke, rest for 100 years
Shaman - buff, afk, maybe heal, maybe debuff
Druid - buff, afk, maybe heal, maybe nuke
Enchanter - buff, debuff, cc
Bard - auto attack, twist songs (probably the closest job you get to modern day MMOs in terms of consistently needing to do something).


Can't tell if serious.

Here's this group in a simple camp:

Shaman: Buffs are done.
Druid: Everyone has their buffs now.
Enchanter: Good to go.
Mage: I'll pull. Incoming an orc legionnaire.
Warrior, monk, and rogue begin to autoattack
Wizard nukes mob 3 times, mob dies
Mage: Wow that was fast, incoming an orc legionnaire.
Another legionnaire and an orc oracle add
Warrior and rogue start autoattacking one mob. Monk starts autoattacking another
Enchanter: Mezzing an orc oracle!
Monk autoattacks orc oracle, breaking mez
Enchanter: Who broke mez? Oracle on me, need help!
Warrior runs over and starts autoattacking
Enchanter: Taunt it! And can anyone heal me?
Druid and Shaman are both afk
Mob that warrior and rogue were attacking turns to attack rogue
Warrior: What's taunt? Is it the same as autoattack?
Enchanter gets low HP aggro and all the mobs run over to him. An enchanter has been slain by an orc oracle!
Mobs turn to rogue. A rogue has been slain by an orc legionnaire!
Druid returns to keyboard, has enough mana to toss a heal on the Warrior. A druid has been slain by an orc legionnaire!
Shaman: I'll slow this orc, that way he won't hit you for as much!
Monk: My mob is dead, I'll help you with yours now.
Wizard returns from AFK and casts one nuke.
Mage's pet paths across the room and 2 more mobs add. Pet dies. Mage dies.
Mobs go after Shaman. Shaman has been slain by an orc centaurion!
Monk and warrior keep autoattacking. Monk has been slain by an orc legionnaire! Warrior has been slain by an orc centaurion! Wizard has been slain by an orc oracle!

[Non Quixote]

At least one poster keeps getting hung up on basic combat mechanics as an example of how "hard" modern MMOs are. I'll be the first to admit that modern MMOs are more twitchy than P99, and most classes have a larger toolkit, but does that really qualify them as "harder"? Isn't having a larger toolkit better than entering combat with the bare essentials? Having said that, most modern MMOs allow you to macro things so easily that you end up back at one button or maybe two that you spam during combat. To say that P99 players hit AA and then take a nap or surf the Web makes me wonder if the poster has even played the game.

It would seem that because the word "hard" is undefined and nebulous it can be applied ambiguously to most MMOs, depending on your point of view.

Assuming no twinkage and no PLing, we can all agree that P99 leveling is far, far more grindy than the vast majority of modern MMOs. Does that make it harder, or just more of a grind? P99 leveling certainly demands more patience and determination. You won't get max level in a few weeks. And most classes will have a difficult to impossible time getting there on their own. Contrast this to modern MMOs.

WoW has gotten to the point that you can literally find epic PvE gear lying around as groundspawn (Timeless Isle). Not so the case with P99. Sure, you can buy gear in the EC tunnel, but with what? I've been playing for a couple of months now and I have about 500pp to my name, and my main is sporting a full set of banded. Anything much better is out of my financial reach.

Death. This one facet of the game, far above all others defines P99 as "harder" than modern MMOs in at least this category. Death in modern MMOs is a slight annoyance, nothing more. On P99 it can be, and often is, at least time consuming and dangerous to recover from (relatively speaking).

Travel. Flying mounts and/or portals everywhere in modern MMOs. Need I say more?

My litmus test on the difficulty or brutality of a game is: could an average 12 year old play it with at least moderate success and not rage quit out of frustration? By moderate success I mean accomplish things like reach max level and participate in groups and raids competently. Could anyone possibly call a game "hard" when the answer to this question is "yes"?

Maybe a better description for the difference between modern MMOs and P99 is that P99 is more brutal and unforgiving overall, requiring a great deal more patience and tenacity to gear and level up.

[iruinedyourday]

Here's this group in a simple camp:

Shaman: Buffs are done.
Druid: Everyone has their buffs now.
Enchanter: Good to go.
Mage: I'll pull. Incoming an orc legionnaire.
Warrior, monk, and rogue begin to autoattack
Wizard nukes mob 3 times, mob dies
Mage: Wow that was fast, incoming an orc legionnaire.
Another legionnaire and an orc oracle add
Warrior and rogue start autoattacking one mob. Monk starts autoattacking another
Enchanter: Mezzing an orc oracle!
Monk autoattacks orc oracle, breaking mez
Enchanter: Who broke mez? Oracle on me, need help!
Warrior runs over and starts autoattacking
Enchanter: Taunt it! And can anyone heal me?
Druid and Shaman are both afk
Mob that warrior and rogue were attacking turns to attack rogue
Warrior: What's taunt? Is it the same as autoattack?
Enchanter gets low HP aggro and all the mobs run over to him. An enchanter has been slain by an orc oracle!
Mobs turn to rogue. A rogue has been slain by an orc legionnaire!
Druid returns to keyboard, has enough mana to toss a heal on the Warrior. A druid has been slain by an orc legionnaire!
Shaman: I'll slow this orc, that way he won't hit you for as much!
Monk: My mob is dead, I'll help you with yours now.
Wizard returns from AFK and casts one nuke.
Mage's pet paths across the room and 2 more mobs add. Pet dies. Mage dies.
Mobs go after Shaman. Shaman has been slain by an orc centaurion!
Monk and warrior keep autoattacking. Monk has been slain by an orc legionnaire! Warrior has been slain by an orc centaurion! Wizard has been slain by an orc oracle!

Lol

[Eliseus]

The arguments some of you try to come up with are laughable at best, and the best part is you guys only choose to respond to what you want to see and skip 90% of the other things pointed out. On top of it all, for sake of comparison, I thought it would be best to compare project 1999 to classic WoW, not this project 1999 to 2014 WoW (granted, it is still faster to lvl in classic WoW than project 1999, it was significantly slower than current WoW). You guys also base all your thoughts off the leveling system, which is sad in the first place that some of you are really that bad at leveling (which probably explains why you think EQ is so hard). I'll bite though for Non Quixote since he seems to be the only one trying to make some kind of comprehensive response.

Assuming no twinkage and no PLing, we can all agree that P99 leveling is far, far more grindy than the vast majority of modern MMOs. Does that make it harder, or just more of a grind? P99 leveling certainly demands more patience and determination. You won't get max level in a few weeks. And most classes will have a difficult to impossible time getting there on their own. Contrast this to modern MMOs.

Agreed, but not hard, hence the point where I was mentioning you can get away with almost doing nothing in parties.

WoW has gotten to the point that you can literally find epic PvE gear lying around as groundspawn (Timeless Isle). Not so the case with P99. Sure, you can buy gear in the EC tunnel, but with what? I've been playing for a couple of months now and I have about 500pp to my name, and my main is sporting a full set of banded. Anything much better is out of my financial reach.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magician

Are you telling me that that getting gear like the pre-planar gear on this list requires anymore work than just sitting at a spawn spot? Let's not forget that in EQ, you can get some decent pieces of gear just being at a certain camp exping while lvling.

Death. This one facet of the game, far above all others defines P99 as "harder" than modern MMOs in at least this category. Death in modern MMOs is a slight annoyance, nothing more. On P99 it can be, and often is, at least time consuming and dangerous to recover from (relatively speaking).

This is where one would define EQ as harder, and I agree, could be more dangerous, but let us assume for a minute, you were supposedly good enough to do the hardest raiding in WoW. It would be safe to assume you are doing your best to prevent death. Which completely negates this argument as a whole, since you aren't dying. Dying just shows to me that you are bad, or bit off a little more than you can chew. Let us also not forget that at one point during classic WoW there was EXP loss upon death. So is this harder? One would say so, since I'm just going to assume your average player is bad, BUT, it is a design in the game that can technically be completely ignored and never seen.

Travel. Flying mounts and/or portals everywhere in modern MMOs. Need I say more?

I could see how someone would assume this is more dangerous given the leash mechanics and the gryphon masters in WoW, but isn't really deamed more dangerous to travel the world in EQ given you can get a SoW and just outrun basically everything, and if you are running through dangerous stuff in the first place, it's your own fault. Basically stupidity, not anything to do with the difficulty of the game.

My litmus test on the difficulty or brutality of a game is: could an average 12 year old play it with at least moderate success and not rage quit out of frustration? By moderate success I mean accomplish things like reach max level and participate in groups and raids competently. Could anyone possibly call a game "hard" when the answer to this question is "yes"?

I was playing the game when I was 10, so I would assume yes.

Maybe a better description for the difference between modern MMOs and P99 is that P99 is more brutal and unforgiving overall, requiring a great deal more patience and tenacity to gear and level up.

Which is something I tried pointing out in a lot of previous posts that were completely ignored. I think people need to stop thinking EQ is "harder" but maybe more rewarding, but even then I don't know, because if I had a max level character in WoW with all mounts/pets/best gear etc... I almost feel like my character would be more rewarding than an EQ character.

Don't get me wrong, like I have said before, I love EQ and it is probably my favorite MMO, but I think to say harder is an overstatement. On top of it all, every argument revolves around the leveling system which isn't the only aspect of the game. For example, there is tradeskills which I would deem harder in EQ than WoW, well maybe not so much harder, but significantly more time consuming, which again, we should probably find another word than "hard".

Anyways, could keep doing on, but it seems that there is no reason to an already decided mind.

[Schwing]

I think it's harder just because of all the bugs, stuff clipping through walls, and mobs that are your level being significantly more powerful than you. As far as raid content? WOW easily wins; after all, everything is instanced and tuned for 10-, 25- and 40-man raid groups. The 10-mans are much harder than anything in this game, simply because there's no limit to who you can bring along.

But outside of that, I just can't concede that WOW is any more difficult/annoying/time-consuming/whatever you want to call it. This game takes patience that's on another level.

[forensic]

let us assume for a minute, you were supposedly good enough to do the hardest raiding in WoW. It would be safe to assume you are doing your best to prevent death. Which completely negates this argument as a whole, since you aren't dying. Dying just shows to me that you are bad, or bit off a little more than you can chew. Let us also not forget that at one point during classic WoW there was EXP loss upon death. So is this harder? One would say so, since I'm just going to assume your average player is bad, BUT, it is a design in the game that can technically be completely ignored and never seen.

Massive logic failure

"Dying just shows to me that you are bad"

And so? Those "bad" players are still players who are experiencing the game as hard. Those bad players die in EQ and go backwards in levels and fail to level up. They fail to complete content. They fail to kill a boss or beat a dungeon so they tuck tail and go somewhere easier. They fail in multiple ways--not just failing to level. They fail to level efficiently. They fail to complete content.

People fail in EQ all the time. People fail in WOW all the time. But a lot more people fail in EQ classic than in WoW classic. This is because Blizzard intentionally removed a lot of the pain points from EQ. They added countless hand holding features. Maps, compass, different corpse recovery, different group requirements, solo content, quest hand holders, and more.

WOW is proved to be easier precisely because fewer people fail.

You are trying to reason that failed players do not count as players for the purpose of your analysis, which is absolutely retarded. Failed players cannot be excluded from the analysis because it's the volume of failed players that proves or disproves the difficulty of a game.

Ultimately these are video games... they aren't meaningful achievements in life. Beating a boss in a video game is always a pitiful achievement and is not impressive in reality. But some games are easier than others and people who played both classic EQ and classic WOW find it very easy to recognize that WOW is just straight up easier on many dimensions.

If you remove WOW expansions from the analysis, then the comparison is even CLEARER. Original WOW was FUCKING EASY INCLUDING THE RAIDS. Upper Black Rock Spire was a fucking cakewalk compared to even Blackburrow in EQ. Molten Core was just a zergfest snorefest compared to even the newbie dungeons in EQ. In EQ people have to learn massive amounts of game idiosyncracies and group min/max strategies in order to actually beat the content. Most players find this too challenging so in EQ MOST PLAYERS SKIP MOST OF THE CONTENT BECAUSE IT'S TOO HARD.

Classic EQ is the game where MOST PLAYERS would create Druids and then solo/duo in outdoor easy mode zones just to be able to level AT ALL, while avoiding the hard indoor zones COMPLETELY.

Classic WOW is the game where no one really has to learn any group mechanics in order to beat the hardest content in the game--which in classic WOW was UBRS and Molten Core. I participated in successful Molten Core raids in Classic WOW where the majority of the players suffered from basic incompetence at their class, didn't know anything about the game, and barely even understood basics like how pulling works or how aggro works. People would zerg rush the mobs and as long as there were a few people who knew what they were doing the raid could be successful.

I've been in countless WOW raids where the difference between success or failure was just whether people were willing to go left or right when the raid leader starts telling them to go left or right. It's really pathetic how easy it is, and how people can still fail when it's so easy, but even worse.... how they always end up winning despite incompetence.

There is a foolproof way to beat any WOW content... you just wipe and then do it over and over again until you get lucky and all the noobs you're playing with don't completely fuck up. Then you get your loots. No one has any incentive to get better because the "fail until you win" strategy is quite effective.

Classic WOW was like this. In Burning Crusade they introduced harder content... but BC isn't classic. When they introduced 10man heroic instances they introduced harder content... but Heroic instances aren't classic.

In Classic WOW a complete moron who is truly and fully incompetent by EQ standards, who in EQ could complete basically no content and would be a liability in a group rather than a benefit, can literally complete 100% of the WOW content.

Most players in EQ don't do all the content. They stick to the Oasis/LOIO/etc easy mode progression and skip all the hard stuff. This is because they suck too much to do the hard stuff. In WoW, most players suck even more than EQ players, and yet they complete 100% of the content. Because WOW is just easy on every dimension.

[Eliseus]

I couldn't even read all of your post fully with the massive contradictions to your own arguments.

Oh, let alone how easy WoW raiding was, considering it took a while before anyone could kill C'thun and the ridiculous amount of nerfs it had to go through in comparison of difficulty to the already low % of players that could clear original naxx testifys to your lack of knowledge in WoW. I applaud you there for effort in essay form, though, again, you contradict yourself a decent amount and show mo knowledge at all.

[forensic]

I couldn't even read all of your post fully with the massive contradictions to your own arguments.

I'm just right and everyone knows it. You're the only one who actually thinks this.. and it sounds like you never even played classic WOW


Oh, let alone how easy WoW raiding was, considering it took a while before anyone could kill C'thun

1. that's not classic WOW
2. most people in EQ didn't even raid. 99.9% of EQ players never even looked at the sleeper. In WOW it's quite different.. you have keyboard turners raiding the hardest content and succeeding. This is just a fact. I've seen almost every MMO since The Realm in 1996 and the average player finds WOW to be very easy, but most people like this easiness. The average player finds EQ to be frustratingly and prohibitively hard and they can't even complete basic content. Most people who played EQ never even completed newbie dungeons. In WOW it's quite the opposite.. and that's because WOW content is easier to complete.


and the ridiculous amount of nerfs it had to go through in comparison of difficulty to the already low % of players that could clear original naxx testifys to your lack of knowledge in WoW.

Not classic WOW. Sorry. Already addressed this in the post you didn't read.

I applaud you there for effort in essay form, though, again, you contradict yourself a decent amount and show mo knowledge at all.

The contradictions you're incapable of pointing out because you admit you didn't read it. LOL. How can you find flaws in something you didn't read? You are seriously terrible at forum trolling.

[Eliseus]

Did you just compare any content to the sleeper? What forum trolling, such an overused statement now.

On that note, did you say naxx and aq40 aren't classic WoW? I'd also like to know where your statistics are.

threads like

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4079845598?page=1

For example, "the life of the casual players" (remember, that the hardcore of WoW is supposedly only 1% and this is according to Blizzard) that didn't involve being able to successfully do raid content, either all these people are wrong or you are.

Here is some more reads for how molten core really was for anyone that actually cares to know the truth, not made up stuff.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/08/15/wow-archivist-the-classic-molten-core-experience/

Please refrain from calling someone a troll when you yourself of obviously being a troll.

[Schwing]

I would just like to note that there was nothing hard about mc. As long as one person had a general idea what mobs/bosses did the other 39 could be braindead and it was still a breeze.

[Eliseus]

That can be said about....... anything.

[kruptcy]

I have only read the final page of bickering without going backwards to the previous pages of bickering. On this final page, there was no mention of downtime and mana regen on EQ vs. Vanilla WoW. I think this, coupled with the fact that an average enemy in vanilla WoW took roughly 1/4th as long to kill solo, and EVERY class in WoW was able to solo level to max level without twinking should be addressed in your arguments.

[Schwing]

That can be said about....... anything.

No, it can't. MC is the only raid that can be compared to EQ raiding, in my opinion. Though there was an imposed limit of 40 players, that was far too high, even in starter gear. The only difficult fight was just a gear check for basic fire resist gear that you could gradually remove the more raid loot you received. I'd say Nagafen and Voxx were a lot harder and when you wiped you couldn't just spirit form back in and try again within ten minutes.

[Eliseus]

Well the issue with those comments has been addressed. There has been many times mentioned that EQ isn't "hard" based on things like that, it is just time consuming. For example, I camp the bandits in lfay as a lvl 15 mage. Send my pet, throw out like 8 nukes to completely deplete my mana and kill it all. Afk till repops, go make a sandwhich or something. There isn't any real skill involved in the afk process lol. This is actually where a lot of the issues arise on the difficulty of EQ vs other MMOs is the lvling process and how fast is can be done in other games, without any regard into how HARD actually is the lvling process on a skill basis.

[kruptcy]

So how exactly do you define the difficulty of an MMO?

[Nubben]

You're just proving forensic's point with this post. You're right, camping the LFay bandits as a level 15 mage would not be hard. But do you know what is hard? Going deep into something like Befallen at level 15. So of course EQ can be easy if you take the easiest path through the game. Camping 1-3 spawns in the safety of an outdoor zone is not in any way indicative of EQ's difficulty level.

[Eliseus]

No, it can't. MC is the only raid that can be compared to EQ raiding, in my opinion. Though there was an imposed limit of 40 players, that was far too high, even in starter gear. The only difficult fight was just a gear check for basic fire resist gear that you could gradually remove the more raid loot you received. I'd say Nagafen and Voxx were a lot harder and when you wiped you couldn't just spirit form back in and try again within ten minutes.

That's all fine and dandy, and I completely agree (though I do admit I'm better than the average player at probably all games I play). I do have to say though that this assumption is obviously false, even more so given the evidence I showed where most peoples memories would contradict your opinion on the difficulty of classic, well, in this case, MC specifically since you guys try to hold onto MC only counts as classic. Nagafen and Voxx hard? I don't even, what? Zerg fest on 32k hp mobs was hard? 1 group of mages sending in pets was hard? What? Please explain more. My ignorance may be getting the better of me, but in terms of what people considered "classic", it wasn't till Vealious that people had any real struggle with raid encounters and stuff wasn't limited to 32k hp, but, since you guys are trying more and more to limit the discussion to try and prove you are right, that wouldn't even be relevant.

I would have to say that eventually end game won't even matter in the conversation anymore in terms of difficulty, or anything else at that and will strictly be revolved around the lving process. Even then, the skill required to maximize the performance of your character is still much higher in WoW. Eventually all aspects of WoW in this argument are going to be removed though for some of you to try and keep arguing that EQ is harder by trying to argue that you lvl up only off quests, never touched a single mob, and did it naked and can max dps with 1 button in WoW. When we eventually do hit this road, I will concede that EQ is harder, but not off the pretense that it is true, but based off the fabrication that some of you EQ fanboys have created to not deter your love for EQ (which your love is perfectly fine, but some of you are so inept, you don't realize how wrong you actually are).

[Grizzled]

My self and a friend of mine had this conversation the other week. Our conversation consisted of the things we had to do versus what we could do. I played a bard, he played a wizard. All the camps that were good for exp or loot were always taken on live. You eventually get to the point you dont even try anymore. So now you have to get creative. This is were the real difficulty and skill come into play. To go out and do things no one else does. One easy thing we did was after bard pulls a single drop mezz and let it auto rehit. notify wizard when the mezz hits and count to 5. this is when he starts casting his nuke. His 6 sec nuke will hit 1 sec before mezz repops. The mobs graphical animation goes from arm down at sides to at a 90 degree angle. Basically it barely moves. We cleared alot of LDON dungeons this way. Wizard never left his mount.

The wizard appropiately gear was able to speed kite HoH hallways. he could never get a basements, so he said screw it. He never used snare. and he would clear every mob not in a basement that doesnt summon.

The second one wizard did was speed kite veksar. The goblins in the front were done the same way as hoh hallways, except shamans got nuked down before the kite. This involved ladders and narrow ledges.

Once you get accustomed to EQ's play style, the game is not hard. But it does make others seem easy. Skill in EQ comes from things you have to do out of need.

Of the classes bard was the most difficult. AoE dot kiting took skill, until the range AA affected it. Yeah it got nerfed. The drums from BoT would let you run around a pack of mobe so fast there swings fell behind you, this was the easy mode. Mass charm kiting took a bit to learn but after that was easy. Being able to tailor you self to each groups needs took quite a bit to learn. Timing chain pulling, trying to convince tanks they need to assist the bard when the mob is at 10% so they get a 2nd mob on them. Getting boned on raid gear because war/clr/pal/sk, armor was more usefull on them. But hey look at this awesome flute that dropped. "Why would i want that? So i can invis better? No thanks i have my epic"

Everything about EQ becomes easy with patience and practice. Newer MMO's skip that and go right to "whack-a-mole" button spamming.

[Glenzig]

What's harder? Creating a modern art painting? Or the Mona Lisa?

[Eliseus]

You're just proving forensic's point with this post. You're right, camping the LFay bandits as a level 15 mage would not be hard. But do you know what is hard? Going deep into something like Befallen at level 15. So of course EQ can be easy if you take the easiest path through the game. Camping 1-3 spawns in the safety of an outdoor zone is not in any way indicative of EQ's difficulty level.

I was giving an example of the mana regen comment for krupt. I'll bite though, why would you ever put yourself in a dangerous situation and claim the game is harder because of that? So you are claiming EQ is harder because you are dumb? If I was lvl 15 in WoW, I wouldn't go walk into MC, then complain that no one knows how hard this game is until you try to run past a golem in MC @ lvl 15.

[Eliseus]

So how exactly do you define the difficulty of an MMO?

Well that is the biggest issue in the argument. How do you define what is considered difficult or not. Maybe it is hard for someone to sit there forever regening mana, they just don't have that patience, so yes, EQ would be the hardest game in your life (personally, I still think FFXI has EQ beat there, but that is another argument for another day). I like to base my idea of difficulty on what is required of me to maximize the potential for my character. That is why I point out stuff like even though you lvl faster in WoW, it still requires more out of you vs EQ to be succesful in it. Sure there is bad players that can still lvl, but it is the same idea as just getting a PL in EQ, but that is why I also mention maximizing the potential of your character. There is a huge gap in performance between a bad player and a good player in WoW. The severity of this gap is a lot less in EQ, except a job like enchanter (which I've already pointed out).

I also base it off of the mechanics presented to you, for example, commonly referred to as twitch mechanics, but not limited to. These are present at ALL levels in WoW, and even more so in End Game. In classic EQ, in comparison, are basically non - existent, and this is me being generious, I don't think they are existant at all. So excuse my ignorance here, because lvling to max lvl didn't have anything, and due to the nature of end game stuff and being zerged, it didn't matter if anything did have said mechanics.

There is a few other things, but those are the big ones.

[forensic]

I was giving an example of the mana regen comment for krupt. I'll bite though, why would you ever put yourself in a dangerous situation and claim the game is harder because of that? So you are claiming EQ is harder because you are dumb? If I was lvl 15 in WoW, I wouldn't go walk into MC, then complain that no one knows how hard this game is until you try to run past a golem in MC @ lvl 15.

TO BEAT THE GAME YOU HAVE TO FINISH ALL THE CONTENT

IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE ALL THE CONTENT YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED THE GAME

In EQ classic when you created your character there was a screen that would tell you "This class/race/religion combination is HIGH difficulty" or "LOW difficulty" etc.

Most EQ players found EQ SO HARD that they would skip 99% of the content and stick to easy zones and easy classes. They did this because EQ is HARD, not because it is easy.

In EQ you had a way to change the difficulty of the game, just like in Doom or Quake or every other retro game.

Mages camping outdoor spawns have always been easy mode and everyone knows it.

So you are intentionally setting the difficulty dial down to "easy", FAILING to complete the REAL content (which occurs in dungeons: Blackburrow, Qeynos Catacombs, Crushbone, Befallen, Minotaur Caves, Runnyeye, Unrest, Najena, HHK, Splitpaw Lair, Upper Guk, Lower Guk, Cazic Thule, Kedge Keep, Permafrost, Solusek) and then claiming that because YOU AVOIDED ALL THE ELITE CONTENT THE GAME IS EASY.

Playing an easy mode mage and avoiding all the hard content is probably still harder than playing an easy mode mage in WOW and avoiding all the hard content. WoW is just a game of mash the buttons until you win.... and if you die just keep mashing and the random number generator will work out in your favour eventually.

"Camping" isn't even EQ classic anyway. Camping is an invention by people who found the game too hard. EQ is meant to be CRAWLED. The proper way to play EQ is to crawl a dungeon with a 6 person group when the mobs are mostly blue to you with occasional whites, yellows, and reds.

No shit if you exploit bugs in the game (camping easy outdoor spawns) you can win. In Doom if you use cheat codes or exploit the wall pathing hacks you can make the game boring there too. If you exploit simple bugs in WOW that game gets even MORE easy and boring.

You haven't beat EQ classic unless you've killed every MOB in every dungeon at an appropriate level. Many many people have beat WOW this way, far far fewer have beat EQ. This is because EQ is hard and people are scared of it.

I had a group in upper guk on my level 15 enchanter the other day. We had a group of 6: Warrior, Cleric, Shaman, Enchanter, Monk, Mage or something like that. We were all veterans of the game who had multiple level 60s who have raided and so on. But after trying upper guk and getting lost in the dungeon or wiping due to very difficult encounters being mobbed by frogloks and so on the warrior started complaining: "I could be getting double the XP in Oasis right now where the crocs that /con KOS are too bugged to actually aggro you. Oasis crocs are such easy and fast XP, but crawling or even camping Upper Guk is so hard. Why do you guys want to do this? I want to go back to EASY MODE BECAUSE THIS DUNGEON IS TOO HARD."

So the warrior left and his shaman and mage buddies left with him. EQ was TOO HARD for them. They FAILED to complete level appropriate content and had to tuck tail and run away to a BUGGED CAMP in and EASY MODE outdoor zone.

Crocs are an exploit. Deepwater crocs /con KOS and should gang up and murder anyone trying to kill caimens.

If you go exploit the game to make it easy mode...

If you choose EASY MODE ACCORDING TO THE CHARACTER CREATION SCREEN class/race/religion combos...

then you can't complain that the game is set to easy mode.


Even still. Camping Oasis crocs is still harder than button mashing lions in the Crossroads in WOW. Equating whack a mole with skill is very stupid as demonstrated by the difference in skill between Texas Hold Em and Whack-a-mole. More whacking DOES NOT MEAN more skill.

Game knowledge is a HURDLE and camping a spawn still requires GAME KNOWLEDGE for instance the knowledge to EXPLOIT SPAWN POPS!!! This is an exploit in a game that was designed to be crawled.

[Eliseus]

So in order to beat a game, you must do stupid things? That is what your post says. No wonder people like you think lvling is hard in EQ. You intentionally make your life harder. Based off this knew found information I'll concede. You are right, EQ is harder when you are an idiot.

Edit: Also, the players create the game, you can argue what EQs intentions were all you want. That doesn't mean that is what is going to happen. My intentions are you will stop being ignorant, but that doesn't mean that is how life works. To try and justify the difficulty off of an assumed intention of a random player would be and is absolutely absurd.

Keep finding even more stuff to laugh at. Camping outdoor mobs is now considered an exploit? I'm sorry, I love to have a discussion about everything and anything with people, but your post I wouldn't even find appealing to someone who does think EQ is hard. I'm probably wrong though.

[jwilda]

Since this has basically broken down into a WoW vs EQ comparison, this is what makes EQ "harder" in my eyes:

WoW has tools that tell you what to do, or how to play the game. These include, but are not limited to: DBM, Decursive, Healbot, etc..

If you used DBM during raids (who didn't?), you no longer have to think about what you are doing, you are just reacting to a message telling you to run this way, or telling you not to stand in green slime, or to duck and cover because something is going to blow up.

Decursive tells you when somebody is poisoned, cursed, etc. You just click a now discolored box and it casts the spell for you. You don't even have to fucking think about what you're doing! You are just reacting to something changing on your screen.

Healbot displays all the health bars in your raid/party. You don't even have to know who the main tank is! Just click the health bars that aren't at 100% and the addon does the rest.

You don't have to think to be successful at WoW, you just have to react based on what you are being told by a program that is doing the work for you.

EQ requires you to be much aware of your group/raid/zone/etc. It requires you to make hotkeys to target your MT, ST, MA, and so on.

It required you to do frustrating tasks just to get all of your spells (hello PoP parchment and OoW rune turn ins).

Basically, EQ required much more dedication to get the most out of your character, and it was much more rewarding as a result.

[forensic]

Look buddy.

You would not have access to all of this EQ game knowledge and easy mode exploits in the first place if other players had not created and discovered these exploits and taught you how to do them.

WOW is absolutely full of exploits that make the game even easier. I was one of the first people on my WOW server to main tank a molten core raid. I was the 2nd warrior on my server to have full valor armor. So being a pioneer in that game I learned a shitload of bugs that most WOW players never learned of, certainly never figured out themselves, and these days have never heard of.

WHY haven't most wow players heard of the countless wow bugs that make wow even easier?

Because THEY DON'T NEED THEM

In EQ, people find the game SO HARD that they seek out and exploit countless bugs to make it easier. These bugs become known as game essentials and are spread far and wide until the point where the majority of players are playing in a way that is unrecognizable compared to ClassicEQ because those players have game knowledge of bugs that were unknown in ClassicEQ.

You are saying that with maximum knowledge of all the quirks, all the bugs, all the idiosyncracies of EQ, where you avoid the normal progression and don't play cold but rather read the Wiki to learn all of the tricks to make the game easy... then the game becomes easy. But all of that reading takes a lot of effort. In WOW people don't have to read 500 pages of information on how to exploit the quirks of the game in order to win. In WOW brand new players who have NEVER played an MMO join the game and just go for it without ever reading anything, learning about any wow exploits, or learning any non-intuitive tactics like camping.

They also don't stick to easy outdoor zones, but find it quite simple to form a group and complete 100% of the ClassicWOW content including low and mid level dungeons.

In ClassicWOW there WERE and ARE tons of exploits to make the game easier. For instance in 2004 I leveled a mage from 1 to 60 in 2.5 days /played, or about 4 days real time. I then geared up the mage to max equipment in another few weeks. I completely dominated the game using all the knowledge that my elite guild had GENERATED as they tested and probed the game to FIND the bugs that people like you don't find but only use and then claim you're good because you stole someone else's tactics off an internet forum.

Let's see you try to beat EQ without the benefit of all the knowledge you stole from Fires of Heaven and other elite EQ guilds that taught everyone else how to play the game.

EQ is hard because take two virgin newbies and sit them down on two different PCs and watch what happens. The newbie on EQ will fucking crash and burn and never recover. Without the benefit of forums and cultural knowledge from other players that newbie will likely quit before level 20 as a total failure--maybe because his stat allocations were bad, because his class choice was bad, his gearing was bad, because he doesn't know the EASY MODE spots to camp, because he constantly gets ganked by pathing reds and is unable to have forward XP momentum due to XP loss.

The newbie in WOW will have an easy prance to max level. She will complete all the dungeons along the way and will never have to even type anything to any other person. She can literally just go outside a dungeon and spam group add or wait for an invite, then complete the dungeon in silence, get her loot in silence, etc. This is because WOW doesn't require the extensive cultural knowledge of bugs and exploits and min/max stratgies that were passed down from the original elite EQ guilds to all you NEWBS WHO JUST USE THE SHIT WE CAME UP WITH AND NEVER CAME UP WITH IT YOURSELF.

You think you're good at the game because you can copy the strategies of other people who were good at the game.

Guess what? The people who are good at the game can fucking beat level appropriate content in level appropriate gear.

You think you beat the game because you get to max level. But everyone knows that is ridiculous. You haven't beat DOOM just because you can get to the end on easy mode. You have to play on Nightmare difficulty or you're a newb. You have to actually beat all the doom bosses if you want to say you beat doom.

EQ is so hard that very very few people even try to beat it. Those that DO beat it usually rely on stealing the strategies from players who were far more skilled than they are.

[Eliseus]

In terms of the UI, absolutely EQ is probably the hardest MMO in the planet with it's UI. I get where you are going with the DBM comment, because it has been a crutch in WoW's "easy mode" comments, but at the same time, you would assume more people would be clearing the hardest content with said program, but it is on the contrary because it still requires precison movement.

The reason it turned into an EQ vs WoW was because it was originally EQ vs modern MMOs since most MMOs now and days derive from the mentality to create a game for casual play, but people kept comparing to WoW, and considering I have extensive knowledge in WoW, I figure I would just compare EQ to WoW, and what better comparison than what some would consider the hardest MMO ever and the easiest MMO ever.

[forensic]

So in conclusion, come back when you've beat the following dungeons at appropriate levels in level appropriate gear:

Qeynos Catacombs
Blackburrow
Crushbone
Befallen
Minotaur Caves in Steamfont
Upper Guk
Gorge of King Xorbb
Unrest
Najena
HHK
Runnyeye
Splitpaw Lair
Cazic Thule
Lower Guk
Kedge Keep

and for kunark:

Kurn's
Dalnir
Kaesora
Mines of Nurga
Temple of Droga
Karnor's
Old Seb
Chardok
Howling Stones
City of Mist
Veeshan's Peak


all of this shit is way harder than anything in WOW. It just is. Kunark raid content is still harder than BC or WOTLK content. I would know because I've beaten all of it. In EQ the game knowledge that was necessary to generate and discover was tremendous. in WOW this hurdle was significantly easier to surmount.

If you haven't beaten Dalnir or Qeynos Catacombs you can't say that you've beaten EQ. It's fucking ridiculous that you want to avoid the content and then claim the game is easy. MMORPGs are sandbox games that allow you do choose a difficulty level, just like most games where you can set the difficulty level.

Setting the difficulty level to HARD in Mortal Kombat or DOOM is not "stupid" it is called "What you have to do if you want to claim you've won."

Come back when you've even noticed just how hard fucking Runnyeye is

[Eliseus]

Look buddy.

You would not have access to all of this EQ game knowledge and easy mode exploits in the first place if other players had not created and discovered these exploits and taught you how to do them.

WOW is absolutely full of exploits that make the game even easier. I was one of the first people on my WOW server to main tank a molten core raid. I was the 2nd warrior on my server to have full valor armor. So being a pioneer in that game I learned a shitload of bugs that most WOW players never learned of, certainly never figured out themselves, and these days have never heard of.

WHY haven't most wow players heard of the countless wow bugs that make wow even easier?

Because THEY DON'T NEED THEM

In EQ, people find the game SO HARD that they seek out and exploit countless bugs to make it easier. These bugs become known as game essentials and are spread far and wide until the point where the majority of players are playing in a way that is unrecognizable compared to ClassicEQ because those players have game knowledge of bugs that were unknown in ClassicEQ.

You are saying that with maximum knowledge of all the quirks, all the bugs, all the idiosyncracies of EQ, where you avoid the normal progression and don't play cold but rather read the Wiki to learn all of the tricks to make the game easy... then the game becomes easy. But all of that reading takes a lot of effort. In WOW people don't have to read 500 pages of information on how to exploit the quirks of the game in order to win. In WOW brand new players who have NEVER played an MMO join the game and just go for it without ever reading anything, learning about any wow exploits, or learning any non-intuitive tactics like camping.

They also don't stick to easy outdoor zones, but find it quite simple to form a group and complete 100% of the ClassicWOW content including low and mid level dungeons.

In ClassicWOW there WERE and ARE tons of exploits to make the game easier. For instance in 2004 I leveled a mage from 1 to 60 in 2.5 days /played, or about 4 days real time. I then geared up the mage to max equipment in another few weeks. I completely dominated the game using all the knowledge that my elite guild had GENERATED as they tested and probed the game to FIND the bugs that people like you don't find but only use and then claim you're good because you stole someone else's tactics off an internet forum.

Let's see you try to beat EQ without the benefit of all the knowledge you stole from Fires of Heaven and other elite EQ guilds that taught everyone else how to play the game.

EQ is hard because take two virgin newbies and sit them down on two different PCs and watch what happens. The newbie on EQ will fucking crash and burn and never recover. Without the benefit of forums and cultural knowledge from other players that newbie will likely quit before level 20 as a total failure--maybe because his stat allocations were bad, because his class choice was bad, his gearing was bad, because he doesn't know the EASY MODE spots to camp, because he constantly gets ganked by pathing reds and is unable to have forward XP momentum due to XP loss.

The newbie in WOW will have an easy prance to max level. She will complete all the dungeons along the way and will never have to even type anything to any other person. She can literally just go outside a dungeon and spam group add or wait for an invite, then complete the dungeon in silence, get her loot in silence, etc. This is because WOW doesn't require the extensive cultural knowledge of bugs and exploits and min/max stratgies that were passed down from the original elite EQ guilds to all you NEWBS WHO JUST USE THE SHIT WE CAME UP WITH AND NEVER CAME UP WITH IT YOURSELF.

You think you're good at the game because you can copy the strategies of other people who were good at the game.

Guess what? The people who are good at the game can fucking beat level appropriate content in level appropriate gear.

You think you beat the game because you get to max level. But everyone knows that is ridiculous. You haven't beat DOOM just because you can get to the end on easy mode. You have to play on Nightmare difficulty or you're a newb. You have to actually beat all the doom bosses if you want to say you beat doom.

EQ is so hard that very very few people even try to beat it. Those that DO beat it usually rely on stealing the strategies from players who were far more skilled than they are.

Again, I played EQ when I was 10, and back then only Kunark was out. I definitely had limited knowledge back then in terms of both strats I could find, and just because I was 10. And the way I played back then, I still play the same when I play on project 1999. You almost imply that it is a requirement to play EQ like you are dumb. I'm having a hard time though trying to figure out how to respond to you anymore due to the raging thoughts of inaccurate information, it actually hurts my head trying to comprehend everything going on in your post. I am pretty dumb though. On top of it all, you are making comparisons to games not even relevant at all to the discussion.

[forensic]

I guarantee you've never stepped foot into Dalnir.

You even admit that you didn't play ClassicEQ. You don't know what you're talking about. I remember classicEQ and I remember the hordes of shitty players who would pick the easiest classes possible and only do the easiest, most broken and exploitable content.

They would usually pick Druid or Mage. The easy mode classes. They would never set foot into a dungeon and would buy their gear instead of earning it. They would miss 90% of the content and never kill let or alone see most bosses.

Stepping foot into dungeons that are the essence of playing the game is not being stupid. It is PLAYING THE GAME.

You are now saying that actually playing the game and beating the content is a sign of stupidity. I'm not saying you should be stupid... I'm saying you should try your hardest to beat the actual content that exists that you are afraid of because you suck.

You might as well just not pick up the game in first place.

<sarcasm> What's the SMARTEST way to BEAT THE GAME? Just buy a level 60 character with max gear on ebay!!! Now I've beaten the game and it was so easy!! I haven't seen ANY of the content...but because I'm max level I won and the game is easy!</sarcasm>

Buying a character to get to max level is not a sign of skill or a sign that the game is easy. Just like SKIPPING the game to get to max level is not a sign that the game is easy but rather that the player is a very boring and timid person who probably lives a boring and lame life.

You do realize this is a game that is supposed to be fun right? If you're not having fun you're a loser.

[Eliseus]

So, your argument is EQ is harder if you make it harder. I thought we already established this.

[forensic]

My argument is that EQ is harder across the board.

Especially if you actually try to BEAT THE GAME by COMPLETING THE CONTENT rather than eBaying your way to max level...

It's not stupid to BEAT THE GAME

It's not stupid to COMPLETE THE CONTENT

Leveling to 60 on an easy mode class is not the same as beating the game, just like getting to the end of DooM on the "I'm too young to die" difficulty setting is NOT beating the game.

You are the type of person who played DooM on "I'm too young to die" but also researches all the DooM exploits and bugs, and then downloads mods and hacks, and probably even uses cheat codes (idspispopd, idkfa) and then says the game is easier than Angry Birds.

You are a joke and everyone is laughing at you

[Eliseus]

My argument is that EQ is harder across the board.

Especially if you actually try to BEAT THE GAME by COMPLETING THE CONTENT rather than eBaying your way to max level...

It's not stupid to BEAT THE GAME

It's not stupid to COMPLETE THE CONTENT

Leveling to 60 on an easy mode class is not the same as beating the game, just like getting to the end of DooM on the "I'm too young to die" difficulty setting is NOT beating the game.

You are the type of person who played DooM on "I'm too young to die" but also researches all the DooM exploits and bugs, and then downloads mods and hacks, and probably even uses cheat codes (idspispopd, idkfa) and then says the game is easier than Angry Birds.

You are a joke and everyone is laughing at you

lol

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Rating this thread 1 star due to this autism-fueled TLDR taking up pages 5-8.

You should feel bad. You wrecked a pretty good thread.

[Glenzig]

Am I in R&F?

[Whirled]

Am I in R&F?

thread needs more wut gun

[LulzSect]

EQ classic is the easiest game I've ever played in my life. Doom Nightmare, now there's a real challenge.

[Non Quixote]

Not worth getting all worked up about. Anyone who has played EQ Classic (or P99) and "modern" MMOs knows what the reality is. But I still get a chuckle out of folks trying to convince me that their game is "harder" than Classic EQ. So by all means...

[Non Quixote]

EQ classic is the easiest game I've ever played in my life. Doom Nightmare, now there's a real challenge.Pfft. Try Hello Kitty on Angry Cupcake mode!

[Non Quixote]

Let us also not forget that at one point during classic WoW there was EXP loss upon death.Never happened. At one point during Beta there was xp loss, but it was removed before live. I'm starting to wonder if you ever really played either game.

[Eliseus]

Never happened. At one point during Beta there was xp loss, but it was removed before live. I'm starting to wonder if you ever really played either game.

Yeah you are right, my bad on the exp loss. I've never played either game, I brought all the arguments to you anon forum trolls like forensic based off nothing at all and fictional stuff that doesn't exist. Molten Core is fake. Naggy and Vox are fake. None of the classes are real etc blah blah. The exp loss comment is also 100% relevant to the difficulty of the either game, it is the make it or brake it point that determines what side of the fence is really harder. Thank you for pointing this out to me, I never realized something like this could happen. I feel so stupid now, GAHH!!!!!!

[LulzSect]

At least you admit it.

[forensic]

Yeah you are right, my bad on the exp loss. I've never played either game, I brought all the arguments to you anon forum trolls like forensic based off nothing at all and fictional stuff that doesn't exist. Molten Core is fake. Naggy and Vox are fake. None of the classes are real etc blah blah. The exp loss comment is also 100% relevant to the difficulty of the either game, it is the make it or brake it point that determines what side of the fence is really harder. Thank you for pointing this out to me, I never realized something like this could happen. I feel so stupid now, GAHH!!!!!!

Why am I "anon"? I'm not anon! That's really offensive that you say I'm anon.

[Sk00ba5t3v3]

I started on Tallon Zek the day the game came out and quit during Luclin. Just as I quit WoW during Burning Crusade...I cant stand expansions that take place on a "moon" it totally kills the sandbox experience in my opinion.

[mtkoan]

TL;DR

Eliseus: I'm really sarcastic and very, very good at video games. For this reason, EQ is not hard. If you think EQ is hard, it is because you are not good at video games (like I was when I was 10). Did I mention I'm really good at video games. Everyone who plays P99; you sit on a throne of lies.

forensic: I am unreasonably upset by Eliseus' parade. I make some good points that EQ is a hard game, but by engaging in a clearly ridiculous argument actually downgrade my own standing.

me: I wish EQ Classic/P99 would give me my soul back, I was kind of using it. It has an incredible amount of depth for a video game, as has been pointed out many times.

[forensic]

I'm not actually upset, I just think vigorous forum trolling is part of the EQ classic experience. It makes me nostalgic when the MMO cool kids tell me I'm lame and that I have no "standing"

eq classic forums had 4 types of people:
1. Trolls who say wrong stuff that is provocative (that guy)
2. Trolls who are right who share brilliant insights in a hostile manner (me)
3. Cool kids who kibitz from the sidelines, judging the trolls and instigating further debate
4. Carebears who want everyone to cut the hostility, completely failing to understand why people go on forums in the first place (to be dicks)

[daasgoot]

An additional thought that wasn't mentioned above:

Skill is extremely meaningful in EQ. As a result, the game attracts hardcore players who like to know that their skills enable them to be a more effective player. What do I mean by this?

When I played EQ back in 1999 there was a HUGE range of game knowledge and skills. There were enchanters who took forever to mezz, monks who waiting for a mob to die before bringing the next (or perhaps lacked the ability to split), clerics who couldn't time a CH, and myriad other skill deficiencies. An unskilled group was not nearly as effective as a skilled one.

Additionally, skill opens a lot of doors in EQ as EQ gives you the opportunity to challenge yourself. Is it easy to zerg rush dragons with a 72 person raid? Of course. I don't think that's where people derive most of their fun. I think they derive fun from taking a group of 6 people and attempting to 1 group raid content. The same can be said for duoing a Named mob designed for a group. It's fun because your skill is often the difference between winning / dying. In the end, "challenge" in EQ is based on your play style -- and the game permits all levels of challenge.

[mtkoan]

3. epically Cool kids who kibitz from the sidelines, judging the trolls and instigating further debate (mtkoan)
4. Carebears who want everyone to cut the hostility, completely failing to understand why people go on forums in the first place (to be dicks)

FTFY

[nothsa]

The way I look it at, just starting out, your naked, with a shitty weapon usually starting in a zone with little monsters that can 3 hit kill you. There you are.. No game is as harsh as that these days.

[Kye1709]

The way I look it at, just starting out, your naked, with a shitty weapon usually starting in a zone with little monsters that can 3 hit kill you. There you are.. No game is as harsh as that these days.

[waspycheetah]

Hi there, what brought me to EQ was a genuine interest since I was a kid. EQ always seemed like such a vast, fun world. I'm really glad p99 is a thing since I never got to experience it in its heyday. If anyone would wanna play with me (i'm a lowbie, started today basically) I'm a Monk by the name of Gutra!