Unguilded / Other-guilded Toons Past the Zoneline when Mob in Window, Thoughts

[Fael]

I am looking for gm/community feed back on this issue, because I feel that the rule discourages playing the game, and encourages needless poopsock.

As I understand it, the current raid scene has the follow relevant rules:

1. Guilds may not have any more than two representatives present at a raid spawn location.

2. To encourage competitive racing, guilds may not camp players out in the vicinity of raid targets.

3. Players may have multiple toons in multiple guilds and raid with each guild.

Guilds have been hammered for interpreting the definition of vicinity too narrowly. This interpretation obviously has some connection with the issue of managing / enforcing the rules, but It is onerous not to allow people to level or farm in any these zones period, regardless of whether that character is involved in the raid at all.

Accordingly, now guilds are afraid to have ANY member past the zone in, regardless of whether or not they take part in the kill, or /q and log on to an appropriately located player.
This is particularly an issue to me when you note the difference int he language between "camping out in the vicinity of a raid target" and the rule that only two representatives may be present "at a raid spawn location." The rules themselves cannot really be construed to mean that a lvl 57 unguilded player cannot legitimately be camping the fungi king, or crypt, or w/e when trak is in window, or even a guilded character that will not be involved in the kill.

So my question is this. How do people and guilds feel about members farming & experiencing in zones like seb. and kc when a raid mob is in window?

Why would it matter if they do not participate in anyway? What about someone who is on a non-guilded characters or characters in another guild (that competition knows belongs to a member of a competitor guild)?


In my opinion, there has been tremendous mission creep in this area, largely because the GM's have been very careful not to make definitive statements that would otherwise remove the ambiguity.

Dolic

[Thulack]

It just makes it easier in the long run to not allow guildies to be in zones with mobs in window even if they don't plan on attending the raid. It's a 16 hour a week(if that) restriction to a zone. It's not a burden on people.

[Daldaen]

Players beyond entrance is a small issue in the current raid scene. If your alt is unguilded and not participating in the kill, no one is going to complain. If they are guilded and don't partake it's unlikely anyone will petition unless you were clearing mobs on the path to the mob (which would assist in a raid effort), etc.

Guilds just make it a policy so that they cover all their bases.

People duck casting CotH for 16 hour windows is dumb though and should be fixed.

1. Ban Mage trackers outside of Trakanon... The trains if you banned CotHing to track would be retarded.
2. Reduce variance on raid mobs. Cause not classic. Like 3hr +/- is better than 8. Hell doing away with variance completely may be worthwhile at this stage. Or making it a very small window (30min or so) so that people don't have pinpoint precision on when to Run and such.
3. Code it so that when the first FFA, Class C or Class R mob spawns, all from that tier spawn. Forces people to rush, prioritize targets and not be sloppy. Being sloppy makes you lose a mob and other mobs while you recover corpses or regroup. Players who like competition can split their raid force to handle 2 mobs simultaneously which would force them into better play to be able to pull that off.

[Fael]

Don't tell me it's not a burden. Trak spawns every 3 days and preventing players to do things in the premier non raiding zone several times a week for 16 hours at a time is really stupid particularly When the raid itself is a coth race. There is no tactical advantage for a small group of guildies being down at crypt or king, let alone unguilded characters.

It's rules for the sake or rules with little thought as to why.

[Clark]

Don't tell me it's not a burden. Trak spawns every 3 days and preventing players to do things in the premier non raiding zone several times a week for 16 hours at a time is really stupid particularly When the raid itself is a coth race. There is no tactical advantage for a small group of guildies being down at crypt or king, let alone unguilded characters.

It's rules for the sake or rules with little thought as to why.

[arsenalpow]

Remove FFA cycle all together. Make all mobs rotate C/R/C/R etc etc and make full respawns FFA only that way there isn't a sock and guilds can choose to move on mobs that are less desirable to avoid congested encounters.

[iruinedyourday]

There is no tactical advantage for a small group of guildies being down at crypt or king

well to be fair, i agree there is no tactical advantage to a small group at king when trac is in window... but maybe the GM's don't want to spend their time making sure that everyone that guild had in the zone was actually doing something like crypt or someshiz, and not like hiding at a spawn ready to jump on the kill... Im not trying to be argumentative, I'm just expressing some alternate reasoning.

[iruinedyourday]

Remove FFA cycle all together. Make all mobs rotate C/R/C/R etc etc and make full respawns FFA only that way there isn't a sock and guilds can choose to move on mobs that are less desirable to avoid congested encounters.

I agree with this... I dont think that FFA provides anything really interesting. Like it takes some seriously brains brawn and experience to be a good FFA guild.. the rest is just blind luck.

I would rather the guild webpage told me to log on on Thursday at 8pm to do our rotation on trak, rather than me telling the SO 'i uh, cant do anything around the house or hang out wit hyou for like 16 hours randomly throughout the week so i can play my stupid nerd game'

but, I am a filthy casual that likes pixels so maybe I am the worst person on earth :)

[Thulack]

Don't tell me it's not a burden. Trak spawns every 3 days and preventing players to do things in the premier non raiding zone several times a week for 16 hours at a time is really stupid particularly When the raid itself is a coth race. There is no tactical advantage for a small group of guildies being down at crypt or king, let alone unguilded characters.

It's rules for the sake or rules with little thought as to why.

So basically you just want this removed so you guys can do King and Hiero during those 2 16 hours windows a week where you have a chance at Trak. Sure why not.

[harnold]

Just poop your pants and hope nobody smells

[Fael]

So basically you just want this removed so you guys can do King and Hiero during those 2 16 hours windows a week where you have a chance at Trak. Sure why not.

Absolutely. I believe that a persons freedom to play the game should not be limited without a compelling reason. There is no compelling reason for denying a person the right to camp heiro or king, experience at disco or chef, or kill bugs at ng. Give me a compelling reason where there is no tactical advantage for being beyond the zoneline when there is a coth race in effect. In fact, it probably is a tactical disadvantage.

And i say this as someone who does not camp king very often, but who was off today and highly irritated that I had people ragging me for having an unguilded toon at king.

KC might be a different story when its Class C, but not in class FFA, where there is a poop sock coth race.

RULES RULES RULES. End the madness. I agree with the above poster-- at this point variance should be 2 hours. Show up, get ready, may the best or luckiest player win.

Dolic

[arsenalpow]

No. I will NOT support your advocacy of the loot vending machine. I will not agree to a/b solution in which I either wait 9 months for a VS staff because of rotation or join a class C guild.

Making repops FFA runs the risk of having your expected R target delayed by up to 7 days because it was sniped during a sim repop. You still have your R target at the same position in the rotation, but then the entire rotation gets delayed.

then don't fucking join a class R guild where we prefer a rotation system, join up with the 15% population of the server that's purposefully held the end game hostage just to make sure the other 85% couldn't have it.

the server will eventually die because of the mindset of the class C guilds, the hardcore raider doesn't keep this server alive, the casual playerbase does yet that same casual playerbase is looked down upon for organizing over 10 guilds into fucking getting along and rotating content. Something 2 guilds couldn't do for almost 4 years which caused the entire raid system to be implemented.

The FFA portion where it forces the two playstyles to interact turns into a giant shitshow every single time. Especially during the last FFA mob of the week where 5-6 guilds can sit and watch pixel grass grow hoping their mage coth ducking gets luckier than the other mages coth ducking.

remove the FFA cycle from mob rotations or make it so all FFA mobs for the week spawn simultaneously to avoid the overly congested raid targets. Don't force me into a shithead asshole playstyle if i want to see content

[Thulack]

Absolutely. I believe that a persons freedom to play the game should not be limited without a compelling reason. There is no compelling reason for denying a person the right to camp heiro or king, experience at disco or chef, or kill bugs at ng. Give me a compelling reason where there is no tactical advantage for being beyond the zoneline when there is a coth race in effect. In fact, it probably is a tactical disadvantage.

And i say this as someone who does not camp king very often, but who was off today and highly irritated that I had people ragging me for having an unguilded toon at king.

KC might be a different story when its Class C, but not in class FFA, where there is a poop sock coth race.

Dolic

Can't tell me you never sacrificed anything to raid at some point. Hunting there is just another sacrifice to add to the pile.

[arsenalpow]

Absolutely. I believe that a persons freedom to play the game should not be limited without a compelling reason. There is no compelling reason for denying a person the right to camp heiro or king, experience at disco or chef, or kill bugs at ng. Give me a compelling reason where there is no tactical advantage for being beyond the zoneline when there is a coth race in effect. In fact, it probably is a tactical disadvantage.

And i say this as someone who does not camp king very often, but who was off today and highly irritated that I had people ragging me for having an unguilded toon at king.

KC might be a different story when its Class C, but not in class FFA, where there is a poop sock coth race.

Dolic

If there's a TMO group at king then those 6 people shouldn't be able to engage Trak. They can switch over to another character at the entrance. That's a very simple solution to the problem. At that last late window VS someone was bitching at me in particular for allowing a level 52 wood elf warrior from BDA to xp at LCY. I told him if VS spawned then he should just stay at LCY. Problem solved.

[Fael]

Can't tell me you never sacrificed anything to raid at some point. Hunting there is just another sacrifice to add to the pile.

I am ok to make sacrifices if I can see some viable justification for it.

"If there's a TMO group at king then those 6 people shouldn't be able to engage Trak. They can switch over to another character at the entrance. That's a very simple solution to the problem. At that last late window VS someone was bitching at me in particular for allowing a level 52 wood elf warrior from BDA to xp at LCY. I told him if VS spawned then he should just stay at LCY. Problem solved." -- Chest

A-fucking-men. Now where are you in game so I can come slay you?

Dolic

[holsteinrx7]

Remove ffa. Make class c red pvp for mobs tome of discord

[Tasslehofp99]

All of this Class R/C/FFA shit won't matter when velious is out.

[Thulack]

All of this Class R/C/FFA shit won't matter when velious is out.

How long you think TMO/IB gonna keep shit on lock before stuff gets rotated? I think shorter then 6 months.

[Fael]

I don't see why a third guild couldn't step up and raid. Lots of targets to be had. BDA is large. Taken is large. Jesus, Chardok has produced 1,000s of level 60s in the last year alone. Its not like there is a great dearth of 60 clerics and warriors. Thats all you need to kill a lot of quality stuff.

Dolic

[arsenalpow]

I don't see why a third guild couldn't step up and raid. Lots of targets to be had. BDA is large. Taken is large. Jesus, Chardok has produced 1,000s of level 60s in the last year alone. Its not like there is a great dearth of 60 clerics and warriors. Thats all you need to kill a lot of quality stuff.

Dolic

jesus christ, why do I have to keep repeating this??

TMO and IB are throwbacks to a time where the raid scene was an absolute shit show. You guys would tear each others fucking throats out if it were still allowed. The guilds in class R do not want to play like that. The size of our guilds is IRRELEVANT. The amount of 60s we have is IRRELEVANT. The only thing that matters is that we don't want to sit and stare at a spawn point for 15+ hours. It's stupid. We shouldn't be restricted to inferior content because of that. The fact that 10 guilds would rather rotate 1/3rd of the mobs (minus VP) instead of dealing with you jackasses and all the forumquesting/petitionquesting/socialogical warfare you bring to the table should speak volumes.

[toosweet]

The guilds in class R do not want to play like that
Batphones a 2am FFA VS?

[Daldaen]

The guilds in class R do not want to play like that
Batphones a 2am FFA VS?

BDA didn't show up until there were only 2~ hours in window or so, in fairness.

Whereas TMO, IB and Taken had been there for quite some time longer.

I don't think they have a problem showing up for 2 AM dragons... more a problem of sitting for no dragon for 15 hours. Which is what you must be willing to do to get any FFA target. Especially one like VS and Trak. Where you have a CotH mage and Bladestopper warrior or 2 CotH mages ready with groups pre-formed and prepared to engage for the entire 16 hour window.

[Swish]

Remove ffa. Make class c red pvp for mobs tome of discord

Again supporting pvp on blue... closet red player right here ^^

Also this thread TL;DR - lets make more rules on blue...there's not enough :p

[Thulack]

I don't see why a third guild couldn't step up and raid. Lots of targets to be had. BDA is large. Taken is large. Jesus, Chardok has produced 1,000s of level 60s in the last year alone. Its not like there is a great dearth of 60 clerics and warriors. Thats all you need to kill a lot of quality stuff.

Dolic

No one wants to raid like you guys. Think that has been made very clear over the years. Racing for targets isn't what a lot of people did back in classic and don't enjoy it. Sorry your too caught up in your own little world to realize that.

[Daldaen]

If variance were removed or reduced it 30-60min +/-, you would see a lot more Class R guilds competing on FFA targets.

You want competition, push for the above change.

[Joyelle]

I don't see why a third guild couldn't step up and raid. Lots of targets to be had. BDA is large. Taken is large. Jesus, Chardok has produced 1,000s of level 60s in the last year alone. Its not like there is a great dearth of 60 clerics and warriors. Thats all you need to kill a lot of quality stuff.

Dolic

I don't think the roster size of the guild is necessarily indicative of their desire to raid in the same style that TMO/IB do. I'm sure there are only really a handful of people from each Class R guild that have the free time and pixel motivation to do so. If one of them decided to make the jump to Class C they would likely lose a decent portion of their membership. It's been said several times that we do not want to play the way you do. We have better things to do with our time.

[jpetrick]

If variance were removed or reduced it 30-60min +/-, you would see a lot more Class R guilds competing on FFA targets.

You want competition, push for the above change.

[arsenalpow]

I don't even think shaving the variance down to almost nothing would help. It's still a matter of dealing with crazy people. The CT experience in Fear is awful, trains in KC over VS are appalling. Inny in Hate is terrible. It's lie cheat steal kick scream until the mob is down.

[Daldaen]

I don't even think shaving the variance down to almost nothing would help. It's still a matter of dealing with crazy people. The CT experience in Fear is awful, trains in KC over VS are appalling. Inny in Hate is terrible. It's lie cheat steal kick scream until the mob is down.

PoHate/Fear are retarded. People just zerg down the boss while hoping their train doesn't kill them.

If your guild has more than 10 mobs on hatelist you should just get chain death touched.

VS trains aren't too bad, but they certainly exist. People generally just root mobs and move on.

But if the window were only 30 minutes, you could clear all the trash in advance (save CT) and not have those trainfests.

[kaev]

I don't think the roster size of the guild is necessarily indicative of their desire to raid in the same style that TMO/IB do. I'm sure there are only really a handful of people from each Class R guild that have the free time and pixel motivation to do so. If one of them decided to make the jump to Class C they would likely lose a decent portion of their membership. It's been said several times that we do not want to play the way you do. We have better things to do with our time.

We are deeply sorry and feel great pity for those of you who have nothing better to do with your time. Sucks to be you. :(

[Ravager]

PoHate/Fear are retarded. People just zerg down the boss while hoping their train doesn't kill them.

If your guild has more than 10 mobs on hatelist you should just get chain death touched.

VS trains aren't too bad, but they certainly exist. People generally just root mobs and move on.

But if the window were only 30 minutes, you could clear all the trash in advance (save CT) and not have those trainfests.

Making the variance shorter would still be a shit show. Sev, an outdoor dragon with like 6 or 7 guilds going after it at once illustrated that. It's just how FFA is. The game mechanics just can't entertain 200+ people going after the same mob. The only reason class C is relatively peaceful is there's only two guilds butting heads. If two or three class R guilds decided to go C like they claim to want, and if those two or three guilds put in as much time as the current class C guilds do poopsocking mobs, it'd be a shit show every single spawn.

[arsenalpow]

Making the variance shorter would still be a shit show. Sev, an outdoor dragon with like 6 or 7 guilds going after it at once illustrated that. It's just how FFA is. The game mechanics just can't entertain 200+ people going after the same mob. The only reason class C is relatively peaceful is there's only two guilds butting heads. If two or three class R guilds decided to go C like they claim to want, and if those two or three guilds put in as much time as the current class C guilds do poopsocking mobs, it'd be a shit show every single spawn.

class C wants competition, until that competition deprives them of pixels, because deep down they only want pixels

[Lisset]

Remove FFA cycle all together. Make all mobs rotate C/R/C/R etc etc and make full respawns FFA only that way there isn't a sock and guilds can choose to move on mobs that are less desirable to avoid congested encounters.

Quit making me agree with you, Chest.

[arsenalpow]

Everyone knows that the reason that the levels of "competition" for content is due to so many high level raid capable guilds. That's an absolute given. We've been in this exact situation for years. The issue now is managing the situation and unfortunately a raid system has to be in place because IB and TMO would take every last fucking pixel if the opportunity was available. That's why we are where we are today. It's the core of those two guilds and their complete inability to respect a raidforce. The mentality that if the mob is alive then it's still fair game is complete bullshit.

[radditsu]

Oh god what the hell is this?

[YendorLootmonkey]

Oh god what the hell is this?

The Everquest version of this:

http://i.imgur.com/bfZw48V.gif

[Culkasi]

Remove FFA cycle all together. Make all mobs rotate C/R/C/R etc etc and make full respawns FFA only that way there isn't a sock and guilds can choose to move on mobs that are less desirable to avoid congested encounters.

Yes - this! So many times this!

[quido]

Let's just make it C / R / R / R / R / R then repeat since you guys have most of the people anyways.

[Ravager]

Let's just make it C / R / R / R / R / R then repeat since you guys have most of the people anyways.

First time Jeremy ever wrote anything sensible.