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Duuvyenx
09-07-2010, 05:06 PM
I am returning to serve and protect the kingdom... Are there alot of rangers on the server?

Wizerud
09-07-2010, 05:15 PM
Galvatar, is that you?

To answer your question, they seem to be fairly scarce. They don't even have Panic Animal yet.

Noselacri
09-07-2010, 05:40 PM
There are barely any rangers because it is by far the worst class in the game.

Ingrum
09-07-2010, 05:57 PM
Not worst, just useless. Oh well I guess that means the same thing actually.

Not enough Rangers in my opinion as I seriously haven't seen "Ranger Down!" in a month or so.

ShadowWulf
09-07-2010, 06:20 PM
Yendor makes rangers look good. Especially when im healing him :cool:
Then I rolled a ranger and died 8 times from lv 1-5....

YendorLootmonkey
09-07-2010, 06:28 PM
Yendor makes rangers look good. Especially when im healing him :cool:
Then I rolled a ranger and died 8 times from lv 1-5....

To be fair, I should point out that all of those were from falling off the platforms in Kelethin.

oldhead
09-07-2010, 06:37 PM
There are barely any rangers because it is by far the worst class in the game.

a class is only as bad as its player.


From a min/maxer POV rangers are bad. Since 90% of this server is min/maxer there are very few rangers.

I'd never turn a ranger down to hold out for a so called better dps class.

Gorgetrapper
09-07-2010, 07:32 PM
I'd turn down a ranger solely for the fact that they don't provide much to the group and they give you a -40% penalty for everyone.

ShadowWulf
09-07-2010, 07:38 PM
Lets be fair, are they the best tank? No, but the server is short of tanks. If you have a good healer backing one up, and he knows his job, ive seen and grouped with some damn fine ranger tanks. Root swords and spam casting help alot in this aspect, as does knowing the class.

Ill group with em, they need love, xp be damned.

Troy
09-07-2010, 07:52 PM
I'm usually the tank in groups (if there is no SK) on my 30 ranger, works just fine but I am extremely twinked. My uberness will probably decrease significantly by level 40 or so.

Sparkin
09-07-2010, 08:14 PM
One thing that I don't see discussed much here is the minimalization of snare on this server due to the easy mode mob mechanics. Mobs simply don't run away on this server they way they did on live. In original EQ snare was HUGE, and since rangers were one of the few classes on live that had it that was always considered an asset they gave to a group. If you didn't snare in Guk, SolB, wherever, you were eventually going to get trained and die when something got away. Here its a non-issue since mobs flee from battle with like 1/4 the speed (i don't know exactly, but it was a big difference.)


Anyways, play your ranger, F the haters. Harmony is still a big + in certain zones anyways. Rangers don't do anything the best (aside from pulling in harmony friendly zones), but they do a number of things better than most. The lack of rangers and abundance of min / maxers here makes them more appealing imo.

YendorLootmonkey
09-07-2010, 08:20 PM
I'd turn down a ranger solely for the fact that they don't provide much to the group and they give you a -40% penalty for everyone.

FU buddy, you just went on my "Do Not Buff w/Feet Like Cat" list.

RKromwell
09-07-2010, 10:14 PM
One thing that I don't see discussed much here is the minimalization of snare on this server due to the easy mode mob mechanics. Mobs simply don't run away on this server they way they did on live.


Truth. Also root doesn't break snare the way it did on live.

Bubbles
09-08-2010, 01:33 AM
To be fair: when running at ~10% health is the *only* time mobs on this server aren't sprinting at warp speed, so it evens out. :)

I personally have seen nothing wrong with rangers, they add good dps, bring a lil' utility, a lot of track, and are a SOW option 39+. Ranger Life is a good life.

Noselacri
09-08-2010, 07:49 AM
a class is only as bad as its player.

Yeah, and for a ranger to be of equal worth to any other given class, the ranger's player has to be better than the player of the class in question. Statements like yours are worseless, and I always chuckle a bit when it comes up, because it does so in any and every discussion about rangers. It was the same thing back on the eqclassic forums. There can be no possible argument against the fact that the ranger class is, from an objective point of view, significantly worse than any other class. That "pro ranger player" could play another class and contribute more. Also there is very little skill involved in EQ's game mechanics, and it's not as if a druid can become a better healer than an equally leveled/geared cleric just because the player is more "skilled", unless we're comparing him to a clinically retarded person.

There is almost no conceivable situation wherein a ranger is better than one or more of the classes that do things better than them. Their DPS is the worst of all the traditional DPS classes, and even worse than warriors (when they don't have to use sub-par ratio tank weapons) with the possible exception of groups that have both clarity and bard mana song available. They are far worse tanks than the three other taunt classes, and probably worse than monks as well except that monks can't hold aggro very effectively. Their spells are acquired so late that most of them are almost worthless already; SoW can be provided by two of the most common classes, and can pretty much be replaced by a soloable quest that almost everyone does anyway. Snare can be provided by SK, necro, wizard, druid, bard, and even clerics/shaman of Innoruuk can cast clinging darkness which, while a pretty bad snare, does its job to prevent mobs from sprinting through half the dungeon (which they don't even do here). Until later on, Rangers even have horrible skill caps, and many of the ranger-specific weapons have procs that make them a liability: root, slow, high-aggro stun nukes etc.

It doesn't mean rangers can't do anything. They're ok DPS, they can sort of tank exp groups to an acceptable extent, they have some decent utility, and they aren't useless. It's just that there's almost no possible combination of classes a group can have that makes the ranger a desirable member, so usually it's a compromise rather than a valuable addition. And groups would always pick the rogue, wizard, druid etc. over the ranger unless it was a friend or guildie. That's what makes ranger the worst class in the game, and no amount of useless rhetoric such as quoted above will change that fact.

Tallenn
09-08-2010, 11:18 AM
One thing that I don't see discussed much here is the minimalization of snare on this server due to the easy mode mob mechanics. Mobs simply don't run away on this server they way they did on live. In original EQ snare was HUGE, and since rangers were one of the few classes on live that had it that was always considered an asset they gave to a group. If you didn't snare in Guk, SolB, wherever, you were eventually going to get trained and die when something got away. Here its a non-issue since mobs flee from battle with like 1/4 the speed (i don't know exactly, but it was a big difference.)


Anyways, play your ranger, F the haters. Harmony is still a big + in certain zones anyways. Rangers don't do anything the best (aside from pulling in harmony friendly zones), but they do a number of things better than most. The lack of rangers and abundance of min / maxers here makes them more appealing imo.

To be fair, the reason it's not an issue here is not that mobs flee very slowly- it's that they don't flee until below 10% hitpoints, and in some cases, even lower. On live, mobs that flee when low always did it as soon as they dropped below 20%; ALL of them. In other words, they either didn't flee at all, or started to run as soon as their hitpoints dropped below 20%.

Yes, this has been brought up in the bug forum.

Starwynd
09-08-2010, 12:17 PM
I am returning to serve and protect the kingdom... Are there alot of rangers on the server?Absolutely not, lol - I've only ever seen once when I did a /w all ranger that it was more than it could be listed. Most rangers on the server don't go past 30 as I've seen. You'll see many rangers starting off, but most will quit before getting far. Trying to find a replacement for myself in groups (of course trying to help fellow rangers) is impossible, so I will usually look for friends or a random replacement.

Getting groups as a ranger is not hard as long as you create some good bonds. Beyond what your class can offer, a person adds to the group socially. I'm over with the days where pushing myself to earn max level and every AA possible. In my groups, I enjoy adding not only a class function, but also enjoy my time with my groups. If you make an enjoyable player to be with, the exp penalty and DPS just flies over people's heads. You have some really uptight players who only care about rushing to 50 who may be against grouping with a ranger, but hey, that's their problem.

No doubt, rangers are a challenge to get to 50 and those who complain about X-class just aren't capable of taking a challenge themselves. They can moan and ridicule people all they want, but the most important part about playing a game is to enjoy the class you're playing and not because of superiority.

Aetherial
09-08-2010, 03:34 PM
My ranger was my main from the first week of the game until about level 75, and about 1500 or so AA's in there...

All along I always knew, for sure, that Rangers were the worst of the classes from a combination of group desirability vs. soloability perspective. and 2) it was F*cking ridiculous that rangers incurred a huge exp penalty. (thankfully that changed).

The only exceptions were when you hit sweetspots in level, with the headshot AA and you could solo efficiently... but that was long after classic.

I always had respect for players that stuck it out as a ranger to 50, and especially between 50 to 60.

Aadill
09-08-2010, 03:38 PM
I always had respect for players that stuck it out as a ranger to 50, and especially between 50 to 60.

I CANNOT WAIT HOLY CRAP LEVEL SIXTY HERE I COME.

Aetherial
09-08-2010, 03:40 PM
I CANNOT WAIT HOLY CRAP LEVEL SIXTY HERE I COME.


Can't remember if it was 60 or 62 but one of those levels you could get AA's, get Headshot, and go to Nurga (droga?) and headshot stuff and rack up AA's...

Aadill
09-08-2010, 03:42 PM
Yeah but I can't wait to do 50-60 on P99. The first 50 were fantastic.

YendorLootmonkey
09-08-2010, 06:20 PM
and many of the ranger-specific weapons have procs that make them a liability: root, slow, high-aggro stun nukes etc.


The Ebony Bladed Swords have NEVER been a liability for me. In fact, groups with warrior tanks love them. Now, I wouldn't go equipping them to fight red cons where I'm going to draw a bunch of resist aggro, but I would expect any decent ranger to know that and have backup weapons. Again, it's more about the player than the class...

Having said all that, no idea why we are stuck with a 40% XP penalty. I like being able to function in multiple capacities (DPS, crowd control, puller, buffs/spot heals, emergency food/water forager, etc) in a group as the situation changes, but not being able to be the master of any one particular role and being stuck as the game's "MacGyver" class isn't worth that penalty, when you've got Enchanters/Mages/Necros pretty much soloing on EZ mode with little to no penalty... :P

On the other hand, I like having a low ranger population count. Because when you see a level 50 (or level 60 in Kunark) ranger, you know they've been through a lot, they can play the fuckin' game, and they're bad-ass players. Or mind-bogglingly retarded because a smart person would have quit by level 30 and went and rolled a solo class to farm phat lewts. It's one extreme or the other, really. ;)

Dantes
09-08-2010, 07:19 PM
Yeah, Ebony Bladed Swords make everyone's job easier. They aren't a liability because you just put the meat shield closest to the mob. And if you don't have a tank, then your group sucks anyway. Your ranger can be like the canary in a coal mine. He dies = you gate. :p

Noselacri
09-08-2010, 11:03 PM
Proccing root is bad because it's a relatively high aggro spell and you'll have no control over it. If you really want to use root to help the tank, you're better off casting it. With two weapons that proc root, you can and will proc it multiple times in a row and then have it break and end up tanking. It also makes the weapon useless for things like aggro kiting and mob positioning, and if you still have them by the time you start raiding, the proc amounts to nothing but a mini enraging blow on a DPS class. You're better off getting a Short Sword of Morin and a Dragoon Dirk.

Anyway, the point is that many of the ranger-specific weapons have iffy procs on them. Ebon Bladed Sword is the vanilla high-end tradeable ranger weapon, and it turns out to have a proc that severely limits its use. The PoF axe's proc is a stun, the last thing you want as DPS. Even their main-hand epic procs a slow, and while slow procs can definitely be useful, they should come from specialized weapons like Swarmcaller and Truncheon of Doom, not the weapon you'll want to be using in all situations. It's just really dumb that the three primary gear waypoints - top-level dungeon, plane raid, and Kunark epic - all have procs that will often work against the ranger and can easily make the weapon worse than if it didn't have that proc. It's one of the countless design flaws of the class, and one of the main reasons for all those lovely "ranger down" jokes.

YendorLootmonkey
09-08-2010, 11:18 PM
Proccing root is bad because it's a relatively high aggro spell and you'll have no control over it. If you really want to use root to help the tank, you're better off casting it. With two weapons that proc root, you can and will proc it multiple times in a row and then have it break and end up tanking.

As someone who has actually used dual EBS's from 25 to 40, I have never had any problem with them. Rarely have the mob turn on me once root breaks. Rarely. Even after a string of 4 procs in 30 seconds. If it does happen to turn on me... I cast root and step back. Problem solved. Small price to pay for very useful weapons.

Also very useful for soloing, not only because the direct damage, but because you can back off after it procs and heal yourself if needed without having to try to channel your own root and use up mana on casting the spell yourself.

I carry a SSOM/Silvery War Axe for times when the mobs are too high level or too MR to avoid resists.

To your other points, I never had an Earthcaller proc on live turn a mob on me... and by that time I had Jolt/Cinder Jolt anyway.

jeffd
09-08-2010, 11:51 PM
the server is short of tanks.

given the massive amounts of twinked-out SKs and paladins hanging out in the EC tunnel lately, the reverse will probably be the case soon.

Noselacri
09-09-2010, 12:04 AM
You have to admit that there's something odd about almost every single one of the iconic ranger weapons through vanilla and Kunark having procs that are decidedly anti-DPS. A root proc might have been interesting for a class that can't spam-cast it at will. These are the kinds of things that should be on specialized weapons, like Swarmcaller, not on the weapons that are supposed to be the main milestones in your career.

Anyway, anecdotal evidence is fun, so here's mine: I played a ranger twice, once as my very first character up to level thirty-something eleven years ago and then as my main from Luclin to GoD.

In the former case, I did get two EBS and had just as much trouble as I had benefit of them. If root doesn't cause significant aggro here, that's a quirk of the server, because proccing root half a dozen times throughout a fight should certainly earn you aggro on par with what a warrior without extremely good gear produces. Until they get their SSoYs (or if they were smart enough to use Obs Shard, which wasn't widely considered a tank weapon back then) you absolutely would out-aggro a warrior with two EBS, and then you had to keep the mob rooted. It's a weapon with possible benefits, not something you should rely on as your primary all-purpose weapon, and that means the top-level dungeon ranger weapon is a situational tool rather than something to aspire for. It's not as if you're much better off with a pair of yaks, either.

The second time around, I did my epics even though it was Luclin by then, and I don't know how you can possibly claim that you never got aggro from your slow-proccing main hand weapon. That's absurd. Unless you only ever grouped with endgame warriors and always made sure to engage mobs after a safety delay and bla bla, all those things that certainly will reduce the risk but also kind of suck to have to do due to your class-defining item. I'm thinking you want your class to look a bit better than it really is, and will blindly defend any presented shortcoming and flaw to the point of silliness. Everyone knows that slow is pretty much the highest aggro spell type in the game, and the Earthcall proc does not have inherently reduced aggro. It was a commonly accepted fact that the ranger epics provided an excellent off-hand and a situational slow tool (that a common drop from KC did just as well), making it the only class whose epic wasn't a "for life" staple (until replaced in later expansions, of course). I certainly went out of my way to sidegrade my main-hand to something with a similar ratio and without a potentially crippling proc as soon as I could. To say that the slow proc won't cause problems is false or ignorant. Basic knowledge of game mechanics and a clearer memory would bring us closer to the truth; and Jolt isn't in the game until Velious, anyway.

RKromwell
09-09-2010, 12:40 AM
Jolt came out during RoK. It was a level 55 spell. During SoV they added Cinder Jolt at 55 and moved Jolt down to 51.

Sparkin
09-09-2010, 02:18 AM
Root isn't a very high aggro spell, so if you had aggro problems with the proc I'd guess they were moreso from the damage. But yeah, up to level 30 isn't a great sample size. Nobody used EBS's back in original anyways because snare broke root and no snare made trains.

Anyways, the ebony sword isn't the top ranger dungeon-obtainable weapon, nor is the Yak. Its the EBW, which has no aggro proc.

Earthcaller proc had some aggro issues, but it wasn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be (not that you'd know well starting a ranger in Luclin.) Most rangers used their epic main 95% of the time from Kunark to Velious until they got primal or better to replace it. I mostly considered the proc a boon in exp groups cause if you landed the proc you could tank any exp mobs anyways until the tank got aggro back (if you even drew aggro in the first place). Thats assuming I wasn't tanking anyways for the exp group which I did often.

It wasn't preferable for raiding cause yeah it could draw you unwanted aggro on a boss once in a while. But raiding wasn't that big a part of the game back then anyways, so it wasn't a big deal. If you were willing to accept the fact that the proc might get you killed on a raid very rarely, you'd have seen that it was actually useful even on raids. There were rare times when shamans had trouble landing slow on bosses where rangers managed to get earthcall procs on. That's more useful than any amount of dps you could do (within reason).

Overall, the ranger epic was easily one of the best. Both weapons were used much longer than those of most other classes. I situationally used EC until like the 10th or 11th expansion when I finally quit for good.

Cyph
09-09-2010, 02:52 AM
The XP penalty is something I never really understood the purpose of, not for classes anyway. Regarding the lack of tanks on the server, I've noticed that too, as I usually end up tanking for the group (let's hope this isn't the case later on :))

YendorLootmonkey
09-09-2010, 05:40 AM
To say that the slow proc won't cause problems is false or ignorant. Basic knowledge of game mechanics and a clearer memory would bring us closer to the truth; and Jolt isn't in the game until Velious, anyway.

Perhaps you are the one with the memory issues and lack of knowledge of game mechanics, as has been pointed out above, Jolt was definitely a Kunark spell, and I definitely had it by the time I had my epics, so no... the Earthcaller proc wasn't a big deal to me. Played a ranger from near release to GoD as my main, re-rolled one here, because the class isn't as bad and the weapons aren't as bad as everyone is trying their damnedest to make them out to be. Even if we don't have Jolt, we have Grasping Roots as an aggro management tool. Failure to use it when necessary is just piss-poor playing and is probably one of the reasons for all of the "ranger down" jokes.

YendorLootmonkey
09-09-2010, 06:37 AM
Anyway, anecdotal evidence is fun, so here's mine: I played a ranger twice, once as my very first character up to level thirty-something eleven years ago and then as my main from Luclin to GoD.


Also, to point out... if you played up to level 30-something years ago, you were probably okay tanking mobs unless you were doing that in the Kunark/Velious era. But you wouldn't have had epics at level 30-something so I suppose you're drawing more on your later experience.

In which case, after Luclin release, if you recall... unless you were one of those stubborn ones who held onto the "rangers should be melee DPS!" concept, the paradigm shifted to archery DPS for rangers with the introduction of AAs, in which case you kept Swiftwind in hand for the haste, Earthcaller in your main just for the stats unless you had something better stat-wise, and plinked the shit out of mobs with no aggro risk with EQ/AM3 for max DPS.

For raids, rangers had basically three primary roles...

1) Ranged DPS, in which case you maxed DEX gear for crits with EQ/AM3/Trueshot and resist gear in case your bow range did not exceed AE range (I just made Starwynd drool).

2) Weaponshield tanking (to let warriors establish initial aggro on high-DPS mobs)

3) Add kiting (more circumstantial on the encounter than the first two)

None of which involved issues with melee weapons at all except for (2), where you wanted the mob on you anyway.

But since we will never see Luclin here, we will never have the first role except for maybe the duration of our Trueshot disc in Kunark.

Also, and I will admit memory may not serve me correctly on this, but I thought I remembered in classic, a high level ranger was generally considered to be bad-ass and didn't yet have the HP/AC/mitigation issues that were revealed with the Kunark expansion. So I don't know if the mechanics changed drastically with Kunark release and were never rolled back properly here, or maybe I just remember incorrectly on this point.

Retan
09-09-2010, 04:58 PM
OMG... when you left Ayonae Ro the whole server fell apart (figuratively) I am soooo glad you came back. I will be your shamaness again if you will have me. Is the whole A-team coming back as well? I see Emmdano, wasn't the Paladin named Luidas Hannibal, and there was a monk name Katrash or something? I'm so excited, I cant wait to see you guys again, toodles for now loverboy =) :D

Duuvyenx
09-09-2010, 05:13 PM
I would not dream of anyone else buffing me =) I have not spoken with the rest of the team yet, but once they find out about this project, i'm sure we will hit it in full force. Katraz was our monk. Goodbye for now my lil tundra rose.

Lill-Leif
09-10-2010, 03:18 AM
Im thinking of creating ranger, they seem like a fun class to play. For how long can I solo with EBS and some standard chain armor?

Bubbles
09-10-2010, 03:35 AM
Im thinking of creating ranger, they seem like a fun class to play. For how long can I solo with EBS and some standard chain armor?

*giggles*

RKromwell
09-10-2010, 03:49 AM
Im thinking of creating ranger, they seem like a fun class to play. For how long can I solo with EBS and some standard chain armor?


If you fight non-casters, you can solo for a long time. NPC Casters will hurt you so bad...

Sparkin
09-10-2010, 03:24 PM
Im thinking of creating ranger, they seem like a fun class to play. For how long can I solo with EBS and some standard chain armor?

I recommend using a PGT for soloing 10-15+ or so. You can't beat the proc at those levels with any amount of damage, it really makes it a relative breeze. Its still a decent proc for soloing in the high teens but the returns start to diminish then.