Melee PVP Buff During Classic

[Bazia]

Is the increased damage and hit rate melee bonus implemented during classic due to the fact 80% of the server were druids and wizards ever going to be repealed?

Melees are gods on this server.

[Potus]

Melee hit box needs reduced significantly.
Melees need to be facing their target when attacking.
Melee hit rate needs massively reduced, should be missing a good 40-60% of the time, instead it's like 1-5%.
Melee damage needs reduced significantly, 2handers should not be hitting as hard this era, nor should guys be max damaging on most hits.

[Colgate]

Melee hit box needs reduced significantly.
Melees need to be facing their target when attacking.
Melee hit rate needs massively reduced, should be missing a good 40-60% of the time, instead it's like 1-5%.
Melee damage needs reduced significantly, 2handers should not be hitting as hard this era, nor should guys be max damaging on most hits.

yes
no
yes but not that much
think you're the first person in the history of red99 to say that 2handers here are too strong

[heartbrand]

Two handers do the exact same damage as one handers. I tested this before with a wurmslayer vs a Skarlon sword (both 25 damage) and their damage was identical. There's no two hand damage bonus until velious. (It just happens to be the weapons with the highest damage tend to be two handers but not due to an innate buff to them). In fact, for pve, two handers are fucking awful.

[Nirgon]

yes
no
yes but not that much
think you're the first person in the history of red99 to say that 2handers here are too strong

^

2handers appear to have some kind of bonus because AC just doesn't work in PvP.

Prof? Came back from AFK porting into Tox... melee damage received from Ragingclues:

132
132
132
132
132
132
132
132
132

dead

HMMM

[Potus]

There's something definitely wrong with 2handers in PvP, they should not be hitting for max damage so often. Come Velious it will get even worse.

[Bazia]

can interrupt get looked at, literally hit 2-3 times and spell interrupted

between everyone walking around raid hasted with max worn haste u aint getting shit off unless u pvping way above in DL or OT and your enemy is a drooling retard

[Smedy]

^

2handers appear to have some kind of bonus because AC just doesn't work in PvP.

Prof? Came back from AFK porting into Tox... melee damage received from Ragingclues:

132
132
132
132
132
132
132
132
132

dead

HMMM

melee damage in overall is far to high, discing warriors hitting you each swing for 480 without crippling blow with a 36damage 2hander, seems classic..... wait for warriors in velious with this code, 7000hp , hitting for 7-800 without crippling (in disc mode) and around 2k crippling gonna be real guud and classic

[Crazycloud]

Hit rate is an issue.

As a tank im always getting hit for full dmg and never missed on.

[Haynar]

Will play with 2 handers and look at miss rates.

H

[Nirgon]

The damage on the 2handers appears to be fine so far. It's just people think they are problematic because melee rarely miss and hit at the top of their range most of the time (basically the power of a thousand avatars u feel). Just in case I confused anything with my above post.

[Crazycloud]

2hand dmg def is fine. I hit with my 2handers at times in pvp for 40-60 which sucks but w.e... prob my fought for not being raid buffed like 90 % of the server.

As Nirgon said tho it feels like melees have avatar on 24/7 just by having regular shaman buffs.

[Technique]

Three parses I ran on the beta server:

60MNK-1206ATK-255STR-BOSTAFF(40DMG) vs. 60ENC-145DEF-655AC-255AGI
--- DMG: 399762 @ 58 sdps (58 dps in 6839s) [100%]
------ Attempts: 5000 -- Hits: 4037 -- Misses: 858 -- Defended: 105 -- Accuracy: 82.5%
http://i.imgur.com/8GVVZ2i.png


60MNK-1206ATK-255STR-BOSTAFF(40DMG) vs. 60WAR-252DEF-1147AC-198AGI (geared, facing away)
--- DMG: 264252 @ 48 sdps (48 dps in 5489s) [100%]
------ Attempts: 5000 -- Hits: 3200 -- Misses: 1800 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 64%
http://i.imgur.com/byCwdyq.png


60MNK-1206ATK-255STR-BOSTAFF(40DMG) vs. 60WAR-252DEF-654AC-1AGI (naked, facing away)
--- DMG: 546625 @ 101 sdps (101 dps in 5435s) [100%]
------ Attempts: 5000 -- Hits: 4449 -- Misses: 551 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 89%
http://i.imgur.com/VIL0yAR.png

AC is working. Hit chance is clamped at 90%.

[Colgate]

looks like halfway through those tests you hit a point at which your damage suddenly slows down, maybe endurance is working according to the server but doesn't show on the client?

think i've heard someone mention this before, that after raiding for a while their damage starts bottoming out as if their character was out of endurance and all their hits are for like 10 damage

[Technique]

I just checked the full logs and I was out of food and hungry for all three fights. Didn't think it would have an effect, but if that's happening then at least all three parses are equally skewed.

[Potus]

90% hit rate is absurd. That along with hitting for max damage every time is why melees are EZ mode here.

[Colgate]

90% hitrate from a raidbuffed monk on a naked player facing away from you with 1 agility is absurd? are you high?

[Potus]

Did you see the part where it's 82.5% on a clothie?

You shouldn't hit 90% on anyone. You don't even hit that accurately on a green mob 20 levels below you.

Melee broken as fuck, deal with it.

[Technique]

90% hit rate is absurd. That along with hitting for max damage every time is why melees are EZ mode here.I don't know if p99 is using the stock function and rules for determining hit chance, but it'd probably be reasonable to adjust it in a way that base hit chance would be 50% when the attacker's weapon skill equals the defender's defense skill, with bonus agility granting a further reduction.

And enough already with the "max damage every time" horseshit. Even without the AC changes on the beta server, you guys aren't getting hit for max anywhere near every time.

[Potus]

You're right, it's probably more like 82.5-89% of the time you're hitting for max.

[Haynar]

Beta had damage reduction for pvp moved to a different model for the AC calcs.

Is miss rate totally messed up? Or is it mainly hitting max too much?

H

[Crazycloud]

Haynar,

I'm a OG PVPer from live. The hit rate and hitting for max is both messed up.

I'm a paladin. I can have rogues take me from 100% to 40% within seconds getting hit for max hits with no misses.

On live i was a ranger I would run to a corner wall turn my back against it and have rogues hit me and have my DS do eat them alive. If i would try that here I would die duo to how glitchy max hits are and no misses.

[pingpong]

Haynar thanks for your contributions. Don't we need some evidence besides just memory and hearsay before changes are made on this server?

[Bazia]

the melee buff wasnt hearsay I played a melee on this server during classic when the melee buff was implemented I did increased damage in PVP and had a largely increased hit rate

[Technique]

Aside from the custom channeling code, what "melee buff" is actually in place on this server?

If a "melee buff" exists it'd have to be Null's doing, so let's see a quote from him stating that such a thing was ever implemented. Otherwise you're just imagining it.

[Nirgon]

If we get those pve channeling adjustments in I think the custom code on top of it will become a bit much

Kick (55+ war or not) should have a bit more interrupt or push associated however it is decided to do that

[Buhbuh]

I think max hits happen fairly often here, although we're all max geared toons with over 1200 atk power buffed (was nowhere near that on live at this time. Had shit gear).

With primal your accuracy was insanely high and in high damage most of the time.

Hit rate and melee box seem moderately higher than normal. I'd try dropping it by like 10% at first. That may be enough.

If all of that goes in simultaneously with the resist patch, it'll probably balance things pretty well overall.

Don't expect to not see this situation reemerge come primal, though. You become supercharged and awesome.

[Buhbuh]

You'd really need to consider implementing the 2h dmg bonus if you nerf bat hit accuracy, hit box, and melee max hits/ something to do with atk power all at once.

[Bazia]

I will find the patch notes give me a min, it was well known during classic

alot of people must remember, but being tight-lipped :)

[heartbrand]

Pretty sure the melee buff was called Kunark. Melees were awful on this server during classic.

[Nirgon]

Its actually a little hard trying to channel something as simple as a yonder right now with a hasted melee on you. I feel like if you try for 3 of em, one should go off.

Methinks the change was good for classic but not so much now.

I dunno, I'd wait till this other fix for hit rate/range goes in first.

[Pudge]

wow

2 handers hit too often? really? and they do TOO MUCH damage? - you guys trying to get haynar to do anything now.

"ya they do too much damage. i know because one time i was an afk and buffless caster, and this monk with best in slot gear and probably buffed to 255 str and dex, he HIT ME repeatedly and it did max damage like 7 times in a row! now that you've seen this impressive sample size, and know this happened, please nerf!"


i'll have to think of a "bug" to report soon. first to post = shit gets changed it appears

[Nirgon]

Post some logs Pudge. No one wants 2 handers to be terrible. Tstaff hits max so much.

[Crazycloud]

Has nothing to do with 2handers. Its a buff issue. Any monk/rogue with shm buffs will fuck your shit up.

[Tacitus]

pras nirgon

[heartbrand]

There should be no difference between one handers and two handers until velious.

[Mac Drettj]

Pudge logs are last dated 2012

[Technique]

There should be no difference between one handers and two handers until velious.There were two changes to the 2hander damage bonus during Kunark, the last being this:
SEPTEMBER 19, 2000

In addition, two-handed weapons have had their damage-bonus modified. The damage-bonus for low-delay two-handed weapons (27 or below) created a problem similar to the weapons above and has been reduced. The damage-bonus has not changed for normal-delay (28-39) two-handed weapons. The damage bonus for high-delay two-handed weapons (40+) has been increased.http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000919.html (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000919.htmlIt's)
Code: http://codepad.org/NjMM455HThis has been in place on r99 for well over a year now.

[Pudge]

Pudge logs are last dated 2012

Hah! This did make me lol

[heartbrand]

There were two changes to the 2hander damage bonus during Kunark, the last being this:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000919.html (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000919.htmlIt's)
This has been in place on r99 for well over a year now.

Test a skarlon sword vs a WS. They do the exact same DMG.

[Technique]

Test a skarlon sword vs a WS. They do the exact same DMG.Since epics are now live, these should have been updated. Live on pvp as of now.



Max skill level for tradeskills is 250, up from 200.
Two Handed weapons receive a delay bonus.
Monk Weight is 14 for lvls 1-54, 18 for lvls 55-59, and 22 for lvl 60s


Either you tested them prior to this or you weren't comparing min/max hits for both weapons.

[Pudge]

I did this the day after the patch, just because the bonus seemed miniscule:
Hi, a 60 warrior hitting a sitting 58 sk with:

oggok cleaver (44/60): 277 damage

weighted axe (45/150): 312 damage

should this be the way that damage bonus works? seems like a really weak increase in damage, for being over twice the delay. the extra 90 delay yielded only 35 damage. actually even less than 35 damage because the axe has 1 higher damage than cleaver. so... working as intended? or no? about 1 damage per 3 delay

[Latege]

That seems just about what it should be based on the code.


else if (RuleI(Combat,TwoHandedDmgBonus) == 2)
{
if (Weapon->Delay <= 27)
return (GetLevel() - 22) / 3; // Just 1h bonus + 1.

int32 base;
if (GetLevel() > 50)
base = ((GetLevel() - 7) / 3);
else
base = ((GetLevel() - 25) / 2);

if (Weapon->Delay <= 39)
return base;
else if (Weapon->Delay <= 42)
return base + 1;
else if (Weapon->Delay <= 44)
return base + 3;
else
return base + (Weapon->Delay - 31)/3;
}

I don't know if it rounds up or down, but Oggok Cleaver should have a 20.66 damage bonus, and Weighted Axe should be 57.33. If it rounds all the numbers down before adding then it will be 20 vs 56 or so.

[Pudge]

Based on the code above it looks to me like the bonus on a level 60 with an oggok cleaver should be:

Base: ((GetLevel(60) - 7) / 3) =
______________________ 53/3 = 17.666

Final: return base + (Weapon->Delay - 31)/3 =
_______________________ 17.666 + (60 - 31)/3 =
____________________________ 17.666 + 9.666 = 27.333

And for a weighted axe should be:

Base: ((GetLevel(60) - 7) / 3) =
______________________ 53/3 = 17.666

Final: return base + (Weapon->Delay - 31)/3 =
______________________ 17.666 + (150 - 31)/3 =
___________________________ 17.666 + 39.666 = 57.333

That is a difference of exactly 30. The difference in my test was 35, but the regular damage of the weighted axe is 1 point higher, so I'm guessing that's what accounts for it (without having the code in front of me, I bet the basic calc for max damage is 5*damage).

So.. 2h damage bonus working as intended! (Unless something changed since may 2013. I know my numbers are old.)

[Technique]

base is an integer and I'm guessing the second expression is coerced to an int, so damage bonus for the cleaver and axe would be 26 and 56, respectively.

At any rate, the problem with melee isn't 2hander damage (it's accurate to the era) or frequency of max hits (they're not), it's the base hit chance, independent of all other factors, which is simply too high.

[Buhbuh]

Agree, hit rate massive, AC fix should help the rest.

[Nirgon]

Sitting damage wasn't right at least in PvE.

Sitting targets I believe are guaranteed to be hit atm, not necessarily for max.

That needs to change to be a max hit for a sitting target being hit in both pvp/pve.

[Technique]

It's already correct, in PvP anyway.Alecta: Attacks on sitting defenders will now hit for your normal maximum hit instead of the theoretical maximum for your damage table.

[Burgerking]

Haynar,

I'm a OG PVPer from live. The hit rate and hitting for max is both messed up.

I'm a paladin. I can have rogues take me from 100% to 40% within seconds getting hit for max hits with no misses.

On live i was a ranger I would run to a corner wall turn my back against it and have rogues hit me and have my DS do eat them alive. If i would try that here I would die duo to how glitchy max hits are and no misses.

EXACTLY I played Sullon as a shaman fought Ruin rogues(BIS gear that made kunark shit laughable)

Never was hit like this, in the 5 seconds I go for Bane of Nife I've already lost 1200-1500 without even a disc being blown. I have 900 AC on a shaman that's about as high as my class can get and I'm getting torn apart like I'm wearing paper.

Melee hit box about 50% larger than it was on live.
Melee hit rate set far too high
Melee dmg set far too high
Melee pushback causing spell interruption is like 75% more than it was on live a hasted rogue or warrior rocking one handers can shut down every spell.

All my spells are over 5 seconds making my class almost unplayable vs melee's currently. Not gonna lie PvP is not a lot of fun right now.

[Potus]

EXACTLY I played Sullon as a shaman fought Ruin rogues(BIS gear that made kunark shit laughable)

Never was hit like this, in the 5 seconds I go for Bane of Nife I've already lost 1200-1500 without even a disc being blown. I have 900 AC on a shaman that's about as high as my class can get and I'm getting torn apart like I'm wearing paper.

Melee hit box about 50% larger than it was on live.
Melee hit rate set far too high
Melee dmg set far too high
Melee pushback causing spell interruption is like 75% more than it was on live a hasted rogue or warrior rocking one handers can shut down every spell.

All my spells are over 5 seconds making my class almost unplayable vs melee's currently. Not gonna lie PvP is not a lot of fun right now.

Yeah it's not accurate for the period. Melees should not be shredding casters so easily right now. That's end game Velious, with guys decked out in primal velium and fully buffed, with +100HP items in every slot and laughing at casters doing 2/3 dmg still on their spells.

[Burgerking]

Yeah it's not accurate for the period. Melees should not be shredding casters so easily right now. That's end game Velious, with guys decked out in primal velium and fully buffed, with +100HP items in every slot and laughing at casters doing 2/3 dmg still on their spells.

Never was hit like this in luclin, never was hit like this period. As a matter of fact I'd be hard pressed to think of any MMO where melee's hit me this hard on high AC healer class.

[Potus]

Hit rate should not be like this at all. I agree. I was just saying in general melee pvp balance, they shouldn't be this good at this period, and they're even too good right now versus end game velious when dudes are decked out in velium weaps and super buffed to the limits and casters didn't even have spell focus gear.

Hit rate is outrageously broken and needs a heavy nerf bat.

[Nirgon]

Friendly reminder its a work in progress

[Potus]

Friendly reminder its a work in progress

Haynar is doing the lord's work <3