Why I am forever centrist

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

http://www.europeandailynews.org/2014/04/14/sweden-new-law-to-make-it-easier-to-prosecute-those-who-insult-immigrants-politicians/
I'm sorry that reporting on Muslim rape gangs that have single handedly increased the odds of women getting assaulted by 5000%, is cramping your self hating "progressive" mojo.

[Estolcles]

Fuck Sweeden.

[Lune]

you'll find a comfy home in liberal fascism kogutab; spectral syncreticism is the next step up from centrism

Fuck Sweeden.

they are so tolerant that they tolerate intolerance, i.e, muslims

[MrSparkle001]

"I do not think it takes very many prosecutions before a signal is transmitted in the community that the internet is not a lawless country – the sheriff is back in town, said Andreas Norlén, during an unchallenged debate the issue in parliament."

Fucking ridiculous. Yeah fuck Sweden.

[paulgiamatti]

I agree that this is potentially very problematic, but the article linked paints a distorted picture of what the actual amendment entails. This isn't something that will help prosecutors go after your average Swedish citizen that decides to make slanderous statements online, but rather something that will help prosecutors have a case against people who are widely published and are in a position where they can very easily slander someone. It's not green-lighting a police state where Swedish authorities can now suddenly go after anyone who says anything bad about anyone online. It's an amendment that acknowledges internet publications are just as valid as any other type of publication, that defamation is very much a part of that too, and that there needs to be a way to curtail and prosecute people who are in a position of power, and who can benefit greatly from slandering their detractors.

The European Daily News article makes it sound like it's simply an attack on civil liberty and freedom of the press - and I agree that these things should be defended at all costs. But bear in mind that this is an article with a sensationalistic byline specifically intended to draw up controversy, and probably not representative of the actual amendment itself. Keep in mind that the people who describe the amendment as a "new law to make it easier to prosecute those who insult immigrants, politicians" could very well be in the business of defamation themselves, and could have very good reason to not want this amendment to pass.

I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but I am saying we should always be skeptical of articles like this and read up on the actual amendment itself, because these kind of articles almost always come from a biased publication. Defamation can actually be a very harmful thing, and it can ruin careers and cost people untold amounts of money.

Here's a recent article on defamation that I thought was pretty interesting:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/on-the-mechanics-of-defamation

[Archalen]

Sam harris should be more careful about his words. He sometimes is indistinguishable from a dumb blonde fox news commentator when it comes to foreign policy. When he put his sentence in context, I found it virtually no better.

[Glenzig]

Sam harris should be more careful about his words. He sometimes is indistinguishable from a dumb blonde fox news commentator when it comes to foreign policy. When he put his sentence in context, I found it virtually no better.

Funny. I thought the exact same thing.

[mitic]

thats a huge troll site imo

[paulgiamatti]

Sam harris should be more careful about his words. He sometimes is indistinguishable from a dumb blonde fox news commentator when it comes to foreign policy. When he put his sentence in context, I found it virtually no better.

Yeah, I can't say I disagree. I was actually thinking after I read his article on defamation that it's not very difficult to misinterpret what he was saying, and he sort of makes himself a target for defamation in that regard. That doesn't excuse the people doing the defaming, but he could certainly be more deliberate in his wording.

I think it was more a statement about self-defense against people who are dead set on killing someone, than it was about religious fanaticism. Sam Harris isn't just a political commentator but he's also a neurologist, so a lot of what he writes about concerns human behavior and things like psychopathy and sociopathy, and how belief plays its part in people who kill others for no discernible reason. It was more a statement that says, "If someone believes they absolutely have to kill you, you might have to kill them in self-defense."

[paulgiamatti]

Also, I just stumbled on an interview posted today in which he acknowledges that a lot of what he wrote in "The End of Faith" is very easily taken out of context, and he admits that was partly his mistake as an inexperienced writer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIGX2mo6CuQ#t=3m49s

[Sidelle]

Talking shit on the internet = classic.

[paulgiamatti]

Also, on the topic of Sam Harris, if you haven't seen this interview yet you're in for a treat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

This whole thing came as quite a surprise to me after watching Argo, which I actually thought was a great film and a very accurate depiction of a late 1970s theocratic Iran. Needless to say, I think much less of Ben Affleck after seeing this.

[Estolcles]

Needless to say, I think much less of Ben Affleck after seeing this.

You mean you weren't thinking less of him when he made "Gigli"?

[paulgiamatti]

Well, Argo redeemed him a little bit. Now he's back down to Gigli-level.

[Sidelle]

Also, on the topic of Sam Harris, if you haven't seen this interview yet you're in for a treat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

This whole thing came as quite a surprise to me after watching Argo, which I actually thought was a great film and a very accurate depiction of a late 1970s theocratic Iran. Needless to say, I think much less of Ben Affleck after seeing this.
It's wrong of me but I was secretly hoping Ben's head would explode. Goddamn, talk about mad. Lol
You mean you weren't thinking less of him when he made "Gigli"?
Lol

[Patriam1066]

Also, on the topic of Sam Harris, if you haven't seen this interview yet you're in for a treat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

This whole thing came as quite a surprise to me after watching Argo, which I actually thought was a great film and a very accurate depiction of a late 1970s theocratic Iran. Needless to say, I think much less of Ben Affleck after seeing this.

Argo is as accurate a depiction of Iran as the Lion King is of how a pride of lions operates.

I hate to defend it because it's a shit hole, but I ever meet the makers of that movie or the last season of Homeland, I will kick them in the Nuts for their blatant propaganda.

Persians have never been, and will never be, stupid. We have many shortcomings, like how I had a full beard at age 11 and the white kids called me Moses, but we aren't caricature-like Arabs who scream Allahu Akbar and then set off a C4 vest. Islam is a very small aspect of the culture... Unfortunately the government uses Jizzlam as a CYA tactic to hide the fact that the IRGC is nothing more than a military dictatorship.

Let my people go

[Patriam1066]

It's wrong of me but I was secretly hoping Ben's head would explode. Goddamn, talk about mad. Lol

Lol

My favorite place in Iran (that I visited). I don't know why Affleck is so offended, but I can't stand how Maher thinks everyone in the Middle East is garbage. Like we're all misogynists and homophobes who take nothing from life but what we're told by our Imam or sheik.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mTVcaJ6-zq4/UR5w5iX20JI/AAAAAAAACc4/x3p2C6j_6k4/s1600/8tEc6Yt.jpg

[Faron]

but we aren't caricature-like Arabs who scream Allahu Akbar and then set off a C4 vest.

Do you scrutinize every tv/movie character you see to make sure that it is a vanilla blend of only the best things about a nationality/race/ethnicity?

[Patriam1066]

Do you scrutinize every tv/movie character you see to make sure that it is a vanilla blend of only the best things about a nationality/race/ethnicity?

watch last season of Homeland. It isn't about "vanilla," it's blatant anti-iranian propaganda.

And no, I dont, but when Israelis make a show to make my race look like savages, expect scrutiny.

Do you troll every post that has nothing to do with you? Thank you, come again

[Faron]

watch last season of Homeland. It isn't about "vanilla," it's blatant anti-iranian propaganda.

And no, I dont, but when Israelis make a show to make my race look like savages, expect scrutiny.


So the answer is yes. Everything in tv/film is fair game unless it hits too close to home or you, then it becomes propaganda. Got it.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Argo is as accurate a depiction of Iran as the Lion King is of how a pride of lions operates.

I hate to defend it because it's a shit hole, but I ever meet the makers of that movie or the last season of Homeland, I will kick them in the Nuts for their blatant propaganda.

Persians have never been, and will never be, stupid. We have many shortcomings, like how I had a full beard at age 11 and the white kids called me Moses, but we aren't caricature-like Arabs who scream Allahu Akbar and then set off a C4 vest. Islam is a very small aspect of the culture... Unfortunately the government uses Jizzlam as a CYA tactic to hide the fact that the IRGC is nothing more than a military dictatorship.

Let my people go

My favorite place in Iran (that I visited). I don't know why Affleck is so offended, but I can't stand how Maher thinks everyone in the Middle East is garbage. Like we're all misogynists and homophobes who take nothing from life but what we're told by our Imam or sheik.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mTVcaJ6-zq4/UR5w5iX20JI/AAAAAAAACc4/x3p2C6j_6k4/s1600/8tEc6Yt.jpg

watch last season of Homeland. It isn't about "vanilla," it's blatant anti-iranian propaganda.

And no, I dont, but when Israelis make a show to make my race look like savages, expect scrutiny.

Do you troll every post that has nothing to do with you? Thank you, come again

http://www.africaw.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=337&d=1301761076

I'm not a fan of Israel, but that doesn't change the fact that your race is the very group that makes them look like savages. The sooner you realize that, the sooner something might be done to change it before the rest of the first world gets sick enough of your bullshit and simply annihilates every last one of you.

[paulgiamatti]

Ugh Kagatob, you're the exact reason why people like Ben Affleck have a knee-jerk response to brand anyone who criticizes Islam a racist bigot - because there actually are racist, bigoted idiots like you.

As for Argo's accuracy, I mean, I can accept that I don't have as good of an idea of what Iran is actually like compared to someone who lived and grew up there. I don't want to come off like I'm condemning Iran or the Iranian people - just their theocratic despots and the bad ideas perpetrated by Islamism such as apostacy, martyrdom, jihad, the disempowerment of women, and so forth.

There are actually Muslims fighting for moderate reform within Islamic communities in places like Iran and Iraq, which isn't a thing you can say lightly - these people risk their lives. You don't get to be a neckbearded, fedora-donning atheist in these places, because you'll be killed for being an apostate. The most change they can hope for is change from within by moderate reformers.

[Lune]

Paul, it's more about culture than it is about race or religion, Kaga just doesn't frame it that way. And a culture is a perfectly valid thing to dislike, because it's an extremely powerful system of guidance for behavior and it's actually possible to identify.

Even 'moderate' muslims are still extremely religious, with cultural idiosyncrasies that are going to be outright offensive to your typical 'neckbearded, fedora-donning atheist' like myself. Every nation gets the government it deserves. Show me a majority-Islamic society that I can respect, and I'll change my mind.

[Patriam1066]

Paul, it's more about culture than it is about race or religion, Kaga just doesn't frame it that way. And a culture is a perfectly valid thing to dislike, because it's an extremely powerful system of guidance for behavior and it's actually possible to identify.

Even 'moderate' muslims are still extremely religious, with cultural idiosyncrasies that are going to be outright offensive to your typical 'neckbearded, fedora-donning atheist' like myself. Every nation gets the government it deserves. Show me a majority-Islamic society that I can respect, and I'll change my mind.

So I assume then, that you agree with everything that your government does. After all, you get the government you deserve. As for Iran, I'd like you to google Mohammad Mossadeq. We had a government we deserved. Thanks

The world you guys live in is very small and defined by a few narrow variables like religious belief and government system. The real one is multifaceted and influenced by millions of actions and decisions.

I have Kagatob ignored so I ahve no idea what he said, but if its anything like what you just posited here, I honestly don't understand how you both could perceive the world this way.

Finally, there is no such thing as Islamic culture. In Azerbaijan, most people are Muslim, and they drink beer on weekends and try to get laid in bars. In Syria, people kill each other as a blood sport. Bangladesh, Iran, Azerbaijan, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and the Maldives have NOTHING in common with one another. But hey, they're all Islamic, so I guess nothing else is going on that could possibly explain their differences. They must all be mirror images of each other.

Not sure why I even post here, there really is no point. But if there are degrees of perception, on a scale of 0-10, 0 being batshit and 10 being in possession of objective knowledge of everything that takes place in the universe, you're at about a 1. You're not perceiving the world correctly.

Maximally, 30% of Iran's population supports the government. Honestly, I'd say its more around 20-25%... the problem is, that 20-25% has all of the oil, guns, money, tanks, etc....

It's not easy to simply click your heels together like in the Wizard of Oz and get "the government you deserve." People in Iran are resigned to their fate because they'd rather live an imperfect life than watch their family and nation perish. If you think about it, that makes them way more rational than many people on this Earth. The religious are always portrayed as those who care about the afterlife more than this one, and yet, in this case, as in many, their concerns about quality of life on this plane of existence supersede your belief that they should've done something, which would have to be militant, to eliminate things like misogyny and intolerance that you consider evil. By all means Lune, if you wish to defeat Islam in Iran, I welcome someone trying. But thinking that this is about a weakness of culture is simply misguided at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

There are a lot of people who would give their lives to change Iran... I'm at about 50/50 whether I'm one of them. I wouldn't, however, wish a conflict like what's happening in Syria upon them, even if it meant after 10-20 years of warfare that they might have utopia. The people who would inevitably die are more important than whatever values a person has, after all, if the highest aim of those values isn't to protect human life, than what are they worth anyway?

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

I have Kagatob ignored

I win forumquest. Yay!

[Nihilist_santa]

Blame the USA for Iran. The C.I.A. waged a propaganda war and had the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh thrown out and the Shah placed in power.

[Lune]

So I assume then, that you agree with everything that your government does. After all, you get the government you deserve. As for Iran, I'd like you to google Mohammad Mossadeq. We had a government we deserved. Thanks

The world you guys live in is very small and defined by a few narrow variables like religious belief and government system. The real one is multifaceted and influenced by millions of actions and decisions.

I have Kagatob ignored so I ahve no idea what he said, but if its anything like what you just posited here, I honestly don't understand how you both could perceive the world this way.

Finally, there is no such thing as Islamic culture. In Azerbaijan, most people are Muslim, and they drink beer on weekends and try to get laid in bars. In Syria, people kill each other as a blood sport. Bangladesh, Iran, Azerbaijan, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and the Maldives have NOTHING in common with one another. But hey, they're all Islamic, so I guess nothing else is going on that could possibly explain their differences. They must all be mirror images of each other.

Not sure why I even post here, there really is no point. But if there are degrees of perception, on a scale of 0-10, 0 being batshit and 10 being in possession of objective knowledge of everything that takes place in the universe, you're at about a 1. You're not perceiving the world correctly.

Maximally, 30% of Iran's population supports the government. Honestly, I'd say its more around 20-25%... the problem is, that 20-25% has all of the oil, guns, money, tanks, etc....

It's not easy to simply click your heels together like in the Wizard of Oz and get "the government you deserve." People in Iran are resigned to their fate because they'd rather live an imperfect life than watch their family and nation perish. If you think about it, that makes them way more rational than many people on this Earth. The religious are always portrayed as those who care about the afterlife more than this one, and yet, in this case, as in many, their concerns about quality of life on this plane of existence supersede your belief that they should've done something, which would have to be militant, to eliminate things like misogyny and intolerance that you consider evil. By all means Lune, if you wish to defeat Islam in Iran, I welcome someone trying. But thinking that this is about a weakness of culture is simply misguided at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

There are a lot of people who would give their lives to change Iran... I'm at about 50/50 whether I'm one of them. I wouldn't, however, wish a conflict like what's happening in Syria upon them, even if it meant after 10-20 years of warfare that they might have utopia. The people who would inevitably die are more important than whatever values a person has, after all, if the highest aim of those values isn't to protect human life, than what are they worth anyway?

Never once did I say that muslim is a single, homogenous culture. It's a religion spread over several disgusting, loosely related cultures, but that religion tends to imprint certain sets of values on all of them.

You're making my point for me. The "70% of Iranians who don't support the government" don't have the courage or the will to improve their system? Then they don't deserve a better system. Just like here in America, where we are being buttfucked by our politicians, our electorate is still fucking lazy and ignorant enough to say "Man, those fucking politicians, look at them buttfuck us!"....... and then proceed to re-elect every single one of them. That's the government we deserve. Diffusing responsibility throughout a society does not abrogate that responsibility. I am responsible for this situation as much as anyone else.

But thinking that this is about a weakness of culture is simply misguided at best, willfully ignorant at worst.

Why? Why are some societies perpetually corrupt and dysfunctional? Why is every single South American administration one inept, corrupt criminal enterprise after another? Why are Iceland/Canada/Japan etc so comparatively happy, stable, just, one generation after another? Why don't you have the intellectual honestly to admit that some cultures are better at civilization than others? Is that reality just too unpalatable for you, so you reject it?

You think I don't perceive the world correctly because I don't look at it like you do. That's the definition of bigotry.

[Patriam1066]

Never once did I say that muslim is a single, homogenous culture. It's a religion spread over several disgusting, loosely related cultures, but that religion tends to imprint certain sets of values on all of them.

You're making my point for me. The "70% of Iranians who don't support the government" don't have the courage or the will to improve their system? Then they don't deserve a better system. Just like here in America, where we are being buttfucked by our politicians, our electorate is still fucking lazy and ignorant enough to say "Man, those fucking politicians, look at them buttfuck us!"....... and then proceed to re-elect every single one of them. That's the government we deserve. Diffusing responsibility throughout a society does not abrogate that responsibility. I am responsible for this situation as much as anyone else.



Why? Why are some societies perpetually corrupt and dysfunctional? Why is every single South American administration one inept, corrupt criminal enterprise after another? Why are Iceland/Canada/Japan etc so comparatively happy, stable, just, one generation after another? Why don't you have the intellectual honestly to admit that some cultures are better at civilization than others? Is that reality just too unpalatable for you, so you reject it?

You think I don't perceive the world correctly because I don't look at it like you do. That's the definition of bigotry.

1. Comparing what would have to be a violent insurrection in Iran to voting in America is completely disingenuous. We could vote out our politicians. The ones in Iran, they are the people behind the scenes instructing Assad on his actions. They would make Syria look like a trip to Disneyland compared to what they would do to hold onto their power. The people of Iran have the courage to live in shit rather than to die for a cause that is going to get half of them killed at best, or is futile at worst.

2. I don't disagree with this. But you used South America here, and that's my point. South America isn't one entity. Venezuela and Argentina are getting worse. Uruguay and Chile are getting better. It isn't so simple, just like in the "Islamic world." Other than that, I agree with your premise. My main argument was to say Iran is fucked, but not because the people there are fuckheads, its because their government is the fuckhead element of the society, who also happen to be in possession of everything in the nation.

3. I'm the bigot because I'm telling you that you're wrong about the country I've lived in based upon what you've watched on CNN and what I've experienced in my life? I guess you have a point there in theory, but in practice, I don't see it.

I have said in other threads that people bring their biases and life experiences into arguments, and that these things are unavoidable, so you would be correct to say that I give Iran the benefit of the doubt. But fighting against that regime wouldn't be courage, it'd just be rash. Especially when the Ayatollah is old as fuck and MIGHT (small chance) be replaced by a reformer. There really is no appetite for people to go to war right now... Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan loom in the collective psyche of the Iranian people. No one wants to see their country ripped apart, especially when there is a chance for reform.

The government you deserve part though...
I really don't think there has ever been a society since the beginning of time where the political / noble / ruling class treated people correctly. Maybe there is a situation where everyone would be represented and treated justly, but I just don't see it. I also don't think the threshold would be "everyone." I'd love to see a government with 80% approval. Russia comes to mind, but that's probably because their media tells them what to think.

[paulgiamatti]

Paul, it's more about culture than it is about race or religion, Kaga just doesn't frame it that way. And a culture is a perfectly valid thing to dislike, because it's an extremely powerful system of guidance for behavior and it's actually possible to identify.

Even 'moderate' muslims are still extremely religious, with cultural idiosyncrasies that are going to be outright offensive to your typical 'neckbearded, fedora-donning atheist' like myself. Every nation gets the government it deserves. Show me a majority-Islamic society that I can respect, and I'll change my mind.

I agree with all of this, except that Kagatob's statements were anything but flatly racist. As Sam Harris points out, jihadists only account for a small percentage of all Muslims who embody the center of the concentric circle, but it's the Islamists that make up the vast majority and who hold very much the same kind of beliefs as the extremists - beliefs such as killing people for apostacy, or for offending the religion in any way being a good thing. The moderates are only a small fringe element of Islam as a whole - moderates fighting for reform in this day and age is akin to throwing a bucket of water at a cresting tsunami of jihad.

So yes, I completely agree - it's about the cultural ideology of Islam. Culture can either be a very healthy, life-affirming great thing or it can be a toxic, shit-spewing cesspool of hate and bad ideas.

[paulgiamatti]

But I mean, it's not black and white either. Western culture isn't exactly a wonderland itself, as I'm sure we all know.