Class R

[kotton05]

Can we at least test this idea out? It's a hell of a write up. This gives class R two guaranteed VP dragon on sim repop. It's better than class C getting all VP dragons and a total of 4 FFA targets outside of VP.

Class r wants vp merbs now.. Shouldn't it be class r wants to move to class c... wasn't that the incentive of making VP class c only?

[runlvlzero]

does the R stand for retarded?

[Oleris]

I personally can't wait until everything is FFA in velious. I personally don't enjoy the rotation that class R guilds agreed to in January. That being said, I think there might be 2 class R guilds that could possibly get FTE on a dragon in VP and have the numbers to kill it.

I've always felt that class R guilds were the feeder system for class C (where people get experience on some raid mobs before making the jump). I think removing FFA or class R kills would increase competition and make the game more enjoyable.

[Kelven]

I personally can't wait until everything is FFA in velious. I personally don't enjoy the rotation that class R guilds agreed to in January.

Anyone saying something along these lines hasn't been on this server very long.

[Oleris]

Anyone saying something along these lines hasn't been on this server very long.

I started in 2011 and I was around when the server was dominated by 1 guild. I truly believe the content from velious will make it hard to monopolize content in both kunark and velious during repops and earthquakes. When everything had no variance this only added to that. I just don't enjoy waiting my turn to kill dragons. However, this is what I signed up for when I decided on a class R guild and I don't regret it a bit. Some of my fondest memories of everquest was raiding previous expansion content that was neglected by the top guilds on the server. I would imagine that dragons that give medallions for sleepers tomb will be first priority for the first 3-6 months followed by sleepers tomb mobs once enough people are keyed. The only thing I am worried about if everything is FFA a year from now is top guilds killing all factions in velious for loot.

[Oleris]

I should add that sirken said that everything will be FFA on velious launch until they are able to determine if lockouts will be necessary. I would not that burden if I was a GM and I am confident that if lockouts are necessary things will rotate twice between class R and FFA instead of class C, R and FFA shortly after Velious launch.

[TMBLOW]

I personally can't wait until everything is FFA in velious. I personally don't enjoy the rotation that class R guilds agreed to in January. That being said, I think there might be 2 class R guilds that could possibly get FTE on a dragon in VP and have the numbers to kill it.

I've always felt that class R guilds were the feeder system for class C (where people get experience on some raid mobs before making the jump). I think removing FFA or class R kills would increase competition and make the game more enjoyable.

I personally think you are an idiot.

[Oleris]

I personally think you are an idiot.


If content gets monopolized I could see a Class R and FFA rotation between velious content outside of Sleepers Tomb and Necklace mobs within a year. All kunark mobs would still be FFA, outside of fear/hate revamps in the future. A kill in Sleepers would promote a guild to the FFA cycle. In kunark this might sound like punishment outside TMO/IB right now, but with the increase of raid mobs I could see ToV supporting several guilds every single repop.

[TMBLOW]

If content gets monopolized I could see a Class R and FFA rotation between velious content outside of Sleepers Tomb and Necklace mobs within a year. All kunark mobs would still be FFA, outside of fear/hate revamps in the future. A kill in Sleepers would promote a guild to the FFA cycle. In kunark this might sound like punishment outside TMO/IB right now, but with the increase of raid mobs I could see ToV supporting several guilds every single repop.

IF????

[jcr4990]

Raid targets being FFA sounds completely awful. Guilds like IB/TMO will do everything in their power to control as much raid content as humanly possible. We're talking about people that have entire squads of lvl 52 chars camped out fully buffed waiting for 4 AM batphone to kill nag/vox. Does anybody really think FFA Velious won't be absolutely retarded?

I'm all for FFA in theory. But in practice it's going to suck unless your guild tag says "Inglourious Basterds" imo.

[mitic]

come red, its all FFA there! :)

[Lictor]

If content gets monopolized I could see a Class R and FFA rotation between velious content outside of Sleepers Tomb and Necklace mobs within a year. All kunark mobs would still be FFA, outside of fear/hate revamps in the future. A kill in Sleepers would promote a guild to the FFA cycle. In kunark this might sound like punishment outside TMO/IB right now, but with the increase of raid mobs I could see ToV supporting several guilds every single repop.

It's cute that you think said guilds won't come back to kunark/old world. Have you been here long?

[BurgyK]

How many new raid targets in velious? How long will each kill take? No guild could monopolize anywhere close to half. And keep vp class c. What the shit.

[kotton05]

The amount of targets in velious changes the entire game. No more Zerg tactics, like 4-5 times the targets to go after. If one guild could monopolize it all I'd be shocked. It'll be nothing like we're experiencing now.

[Raev]

Class r wants vp merbs now.. Shouldn't it be class r wants to move to class c... wasn't that the incentive of making VP class c only?

I didn't really like Artaenc's quote.

However, what I don't understand is why Class C, nominally the class that is all about guaranteed competition, is all about getting protected from Class R.

How about we just make everything that was C FFA?

[Lojik]

I didn't really like Artaenc's quote.

However, what I don't understand is why Class C, nominally the class that is all about guaranteed competition, is all about getting protected from Class R.

How about we just make everything that was C FFA?

Can class C guilds join rotation then too?

[Lojik]

The amount of targets in velious changes the entire game. No more Zerg tactics, like 4-5 times the targets to go after. If one guild could monopolize it all I'd be shocked. It'll be nothing like we're experiencing now.

I mean this might be true, I wouldn't be surprised either way. If population gets higher and old players come back, guilds very well may be able to keep stuff on lockdown. Is there going to be variance on most targets in Velious?

[Heebo]

I didn't really like Artaenc's quote.

However, what I don't understand is why Class C, nominally the class that is all about guaranteed competition, is all about getting protected from Class R.

How about we just make everything that was C FFA?

Sure. Put TMO and IB on the class R rotation and make everything else FFA. Sounds good.

[Raev]

Sure. Put TMO and IB on the class R rotation and make everything else FFA. Sounds good.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable solution (when combined with a FFA/C rotation on normal spawns + every mob FFA on repops incl VP).

[BurgyK]

Yeah good luck to the lower tier r guilds.

[Daldaen]

Add TMO/IB to the rotation. Remove class rotations. Rotate like so:

Rotation Merb - FFA Merb - Rotation Merb - FFA Merb - Repeat

Sim Repop full rotation.

[Heebo]

Instead of making you realize you're capable of killing anything class C can, this experiment had taught you that if you cry loud enough Rogean will but that pixel titty in your mouth to shut you up. The class R argument of separate classes for different play styles just doesn't hold water. Two years ago TMO wasn't putting in 1/10th of the effort some class R guilds are today. If you want to kill a VP dragon just go do it. Stop trying to lobby your congressman. It's a game - treat it like one.

[Daldaen]

Sim Repop full FFA* Cursed lack of edits.

[Heebo]

Add TMO/IB to the rotation. Remove class rotations. Rotate like so:

Rotation Merb - FFA Merb - Rotation Merb - FFA Merb - Repeat

Sim Repop full rotation.
I'd suggest repop FFA. They're literally the only fun part of raiding anymore.

[Daldaen]

I'd suggest repop FFA. They're literally the only fun part of raiding anymore.

Yea... because the 'competition' this server has is staring at a wall for 16 hours (stupid non-classic variance) hoping your mage CotHs in and you get FTE <12 seconds after the mob spawns.

This is why your above quote is laughable:

It's a game - treat it like one.

Yea... Name one other game where you will stare at a wall for 16 hours straight doing literally nothing but waiting for a mob to spawn... The fact that some people do this, regularly every week, and find it fun is mind boggling.

But this is RNF, so common sense isn't allowed. Only tit pix of hacked celebrities and GIFs.

[Heebo]

Yea... because the 'competition' this server has is staring at a wall for 16 hours (stupid non-classic variance) hoping your mage CotHs in and you get FTE <12 seconds after the mob spawns.

This is why your above quote is laughable:



Yea... Name one other game where you will stare at a wall for 16 hours straight doing literally nothing but waiting for a mob to spawn... The fact that some people do this, regularly every week, and find it fun is mind boggling.

But this is RNF, so common sense isn't allowed. Only tit pix of hacked celebrities and GIFs.
Hey, I'm with you. I can't believe the tactics being used today. They're a result of an enormously overbearing set of unclassic rules imposed on this server. The solution is more content (velious) not more rules and bylaws to hand yourselves VP dragons.

[Loke]

http://c4.diapers.com/images/products/p/hp/hp-008_1z.jpg

[Heebo]

http://c4.diapers.com/images/products/p/hp/hp-008_1z.jpg

^^^^^^^^^

[Lojik]

Hey, I'm with you. I can't believe the tactics being used today. They're a result of an enormously overbearing set of unclassic rules imposed on this server. The solution is more content (velious) not more rules and bylaws to hand yourselves VP dragons.

Lol what. The raid scene was horrendous before these rules. People who wanted "competition" simply zerg joined TMO. The problem is and always was the lack of content, which you allude to in the very next sentence.

[Raev]

Hey, I'm with you. I can't believe the tactics being used today. They're a result of an enormously overbearing set of unclassic rules imposed on this server. The solution is more content (velious) not more rules and bylaws to hand yourselves VP dragons.

Because 96 hour variance is classic

[TMBLOW]

Instead of making you realize you're capable of killing anything class C can, this experiment had taught you that if you cry loud enough Rogean will but that pixel titty in your mouth to shut you up. The class R argument of separate classes for different play styles just doesn't hold water. Two years ago TMO wasn't putting in 1/10th of the effort some class R guilds are today. If you want to kill a VP dragon just go do it. Stop trying to lobby your congressman. It's a game - treat it like one.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111227100711/supernatural/images/9/9b/Watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png

Two years ago TMO didnt put in extra effort because no one else was capable of trying to even put a dent into the raid scene with 96 HR variance and 24/7 on-call batphone raid forces parked at each zone. There literally was no chance in hell.

Nice try tho, I know it sucks now that the playing field is somewhat leveled and TMO regularly loses mobs its easy to complain about how the rules are boggin you down and Class R are a bunch of whiners lol.

Damn rules making a playing field more fair for all!

There is ZERO reason the COMPETITIVE class should have any spawns 'reserved' for them like Dald said. Every mob that is listed as Class C should be FFA.

Class C by their nature wins most of the FFA anyway, and its what they crave....competition and beating the other guy to the punch.

The sole reason Class C has their own allocated mobs is simply because there was too much pixel loss on the line which is unacceptable.

[Heebo]

Because 96 hour variance is classic

?

[Raev]

?

I just find it amusing that you are whining about how the current system is not classic, when for years we had . . . another system that was not classic.

The simple reality is that Kunark (and probably even Velious) is just too easy. The only real competition is on repops; everything else is just a test of neckbeardery.

My original proposal was that repops be FFA and normal spawns be rotated (all guilds). I'm feeling pretty prescient with that proposal at this point.

[Heebo]

I just find it amusing that you are whining about how the current system is not classic, when for years we had . . . another system that was not classic.

The simple reality is that Kunark (and probably even Velious) is just too easy. The only real competition is on repops; everything else is just a test of neckbeardery.

My original proposal was that repops be FFA and normal spawns be rotated (all guilds). I'm feeling pretty prescient with that proposal at this point.

I never said 96 hour variance was classic. I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring it up as that was exactly my point - unclassic rules being put into place to try to solve the raid scene when only new content can do that.

[TMBLOW]

I never said 96 hour variance was classic. I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring it up as that was exactly my point - unclassic rules being put into place to try to solve the raid scene when only new content can do that.

well at least there's a raid SCENE now instead of TMO retirement pixel packages

before the changes, raiding still happened, just no one was allowed to see it

[quido]

It was only a matter of time. The question is: how retarded will the staff let blue become?

[Lazie]

It was only a matter of time. The question is: how retarded will the staff let blue become?

We all knew it was coming. Ride the Class R gravy train till trak gives up enough teeth...Then ask VP to be changed to FFA.

[Kich867]

Apologies for my ignorance and slight derailment but, what exactly does Class C and Class R stand for? I've tried searching the forum however it limits my search to just "Class" since C and R are too short to query on, which gives me rather unhelpful results.

[kotton05]

Change the current variance to +/- 4 hours imo. With the extended window code where if it falls into the last little bit the spawn timer rerolls.... Since it's hard for guilds in class r who field 60 or so during late mob windows to track (which is a cop out)

But jeremy I think we're already at full retard.

[TMBLOW]

We all knew it was coming. Ride the Class R gravy train till trak gives up enough teeth...Then ask VP to be changed to FFA.

We all knew it was coming. Ride the classically long variance to lock down every raid mob for 2 years utilizing the biggest neckbeards on the server. Then complain that 1/3 of the mob respawns outside of VP is too much to 'give away'.

[TMBLOW]

We all knew it was coming. Ride the unclassically long variance to lock down every raid mob for 2 years utilizing the biggest neckbeards on the server. Then complain that 1/3 of the mob respawns outside of VP is too much to 'give away'.

[kotton05]

We all knew it was coming. Ride the classically long variance to lock down every raid mob for 2 years utilizing the biggest neckbeards on the server. Then complain that 1/3 of the mob respawns outside of VP is too much to 'give away'.

... That's not what he said. We're fine with the rotation you psycho.

[TMBLOW]

... That's not what he said. We're fine with the rotation you psycho.

I know, I am showing how easy it is to reframe things and give false impressions

[TMBLOW]

VP becoming FFA on repops would add a wrinkle of FUN

if class C is honestly scared about Class R taking VP pixels.....

[kotton05]

Yea but the thing is vp is meant to make a guild choose between c or r.

[Lazie]

We all knew it was coming. Ride the classically long variance to lock down every raid mob for 2 years utilizing the biggest neckbeards on the server. Then complain that 1/3 of the mob respawns outside of VP is too much to 'give away'.

It's just funny to me at this point. I have less time to play right now so it's not impacting me in a big way. However, if the guilds that put in effort for FFA spawns outside of VP knew that for the most part they put in more effort than goes into VP kills (CotH ducking) they would already be in VP. Because once they spend a month in there and figure out the tactics they will get kills in there. They rather kill themselves for FFA mobs though.

[Gwence]

the only competition that eq has ever had is the internal competition that each player has with him/herself to be able to show up to a raid and hopefully not suck.

sadly, probably 75% of players lose this battle consistently

this is why a successful raid team (especially in Kunark 32k zerg fest) only needs a really good raid leader/puller and 1 really good tank, and a couple decent healers. Along with 30-40 other people that understand how to turn on auto attack, or click a spell gem.

sad truth is if you have 10-12 people that are outstanding in a raid of 40-50 players you can beat anything in the game without breaking a sweat.

the best guilds have a higher ratio of intelligent capable players : warm bodies that just show up and turn on auto attack. But even still there's no competition outside of whether or not each individual will perform at their highest level.

If velious is coded correctly when it launches I find it hard to believe anyone will be able to lock it down, NToV alone was a multi-day raid for the best of the best guilds back in 2000 or 2001 whenever Velious came out. Even with the added experience that players have presently it will still be several hours of clearing to be able to clean that out.

[Argh]

It's never gonna happen, and it shouldn't happen.

[TMBLOW]

Yea but the thing is vp is meant to make a guild choose between c or r.

well the system is set up awfully then....

the way VP is now is solely because thats the only way TMO/IB would fall on the grenade that is these raid changes, they keep their playground

it has nothing to do with server health, growth or the populations enjoyment of the game/raiding scene....Choosing you are Class C or R as Chest always points out, is about playstyle, its not about the mindset of 'I want to experience this game + or - VP"

[Rais]

Want vp mobs? Move up in raid class. Easy solution. Anything else won't happen. I have my faith in Sirken, Deru and Rogean about this.

[quido]

If Class R people want to experience VP, they have their options:

- Join a Class C guild
- Have their existing guild upgrade to Class C
- Go do it on another server

[TMBLOW]

Want vp mobs? Move up in raid class. Easy solution. Anything else won't happen. I have my faith in Sirken, Deru and Rogean about this.

no one wants them that bad :P

I think many are missing the entire point but its RnF

lets see some gifs/boobs/asses and LOLz

[bigsykedaddy]

I think it's a perfectly reasonable solution (when combined with a FFA/C rotation on normal spawns + every mob FFA on repops incl VP).

I just think you want your bo staff. If every mob is FFA including VP i'll make sure we go for Nexona first.

[bigsykedaddy]

If Class R people want to experience VP, they have their options:

- Join a Class C guild
- Have their existing guild upgrade to Class C
- Go do it on another server

QFT

[TMBLOW]

If Class R people want to experience VP, they have their options:

- Join a Class C guild
- Have their existing guild upgrade to Class C
- Go do it on another server

Then lets see the devs hash out how a Class C guild demotes it self back to R

thats one of the biggest hurdles and why no one will move up. Show us how to move back n forth if it doesnt fit the guild, then you will see someone test the water.

Til then, its a bunch of rhetoric and the death of any guild that makes the jump.

[quido]

How is it death? You can still compete for FFA mobs like before, and then you can compete for Class C mobs too.

Oh wait, you just want to get more by doing less. I almost forgot.

[Lazie]

Then lets see the devs hash out how a Class C guild demotes it self back to R

thats one of the biggest hurdles and why no one will move up. Show us how to move back n forth if it doesnt fit the guild, then you will see someone test the water.

Til then, its a bunch of rhetoric and the death of any guild that makes the jump.

That is not the reason guilds won't move up. For some it is different play styles. For others it's just lack of knowledge about the effort. For instance if guilds that put in a ton of effort for FFA VS...instead put that effort into say..PD...They would find it isn't much different once you spend time in the zone and learn the mechanics of pulling in there.

[TMBLOW]

That is not the reason guilds won't move up. For some it is different play styles. For others it's just lack of knowledge about the effort. For instance if guilds that put in a ton of effort for FFA VS...instead put that effort into say..PD...They would find it isn't much different once you spend time in the zone and learn the mechanics of pulling in there.

I forgot that Lazie was in a Class R guild and knows exactly why they have chosen not to move up.

Please enlighten us some more about Class R's leadership decisions for their guilds.

[TMBLOW]

How is it death? You can still compete for FFA mobs like before, and then you can compete for Class C mobs too.

Oh wait, you just want to get more by doing less. I almost forgot.

its death when after a month of trying that, most your members are burned out or decide its not 'worth it'.

then what.

[quido]

So compete for one mob a week or whatever. That's about what you're getting currently anyways right?

You could always throw in an argument for a reduced variance. I get the feeling most people in Class C are tired of the windows as they are.

[Nukehard]

We all knew it was coming. Ride the Class R gravy train till trak gives up enough teeth...Then ask VP to be changed to FFA.

Ikr, pretty sad if you ask me... If you want VP go kill a fucking class c mob and become class c, so simple frunds. Pras clan borf, class c frunds.

[TMBLOW]

So compete for one mob a week or whatever. That's about what you're getting currently anyways right?

You could always throw in an argument for a reduced variance. I get the feeling most people in Class C are tired of the windows as they are.


So you dont even have an answer to the question I posed which you felt didnt deserve to be posed due to your wonderful and insightful list.

My point exactly.

Until there is a way for class R guilds to 'sell' to their members a trip to Class C as something that wont be permanent and binding because they can do XYZ if it doesnt work out.

It will never happen.

But continue to cite the fact its about free easy kills and handouts why they dont change.

[Lazie]

Here is an idea for repops. Keep the mobs in VP Class C...Put the 2 kill bag limit in place for Class C guilds in VP on repops.... This puts 2 mobs on repops Class R guilds can choose or not choose to go after (Practice in VP). If they choose not to then Class C still kills them when the bag limit timer runs out. However keep the penalty that they have to go to Class C if they kill one of those mobs.

[BurgyK]

^

[TMBLOW]

Here is an idea for repops. Keep the mobs in VP Class C...Put the 2 kill bag limit in place for Class C guilds in VP on repops.... This puts 2 mobs on repops Class R guilds can choose or not choose to go after (Practice in VP). If they choose not to then Class C still kills them when the bag limit timer runs out. However keep the penalty that they have to go to Class C if they kill one of those mobs.

again, Class R doesnt want VP handouts lol

I think most would like the opportunity to test the waters, but still have a way to not throw their guild charters out the window bc they engaged a VP dragon and won

if there's language somewhere that leadership can show its members if stuff doesnt work out whether be burnout/turnover/failure/cant compete etc etc that they can return to Class R and thusly return to building their progression at the slower pace it experienced before graduating to C....

it will happen.

[Lazie]

again, Class R doesnt want VP handouts lol

I think most would like the opportunity to test the waters, but still have a way to not throw their guild charters out the window bc they engaged a VP dragon and won

if there's language somewhere that leadership can show its members if stuff doesnt work out whether be burnout/turnover/failure/cant compete etc etc that they can return to Class R and thusly return to building their progression at the slower pace it experienced before graduating to C....

it will happen.

What ? Go read the raid forums. THat is exactly what they asked for except they want VP to change from Class C to FFA on the sim repops so they don't have to swap classes if they kill them. My proposal is fair. It gives 2 Class C mobs left untouched for the duration of the bag limit. Heck 2 repops a month =4 kills for any guild that takes that path. It's pretty rewarding for anyone making the step up. But it has the penalty of being Class C and no longer eligible for the rotation.

[Pint]

Hey, I'm with you. I can't believe the tactics being used today. They're a result of an enormously overbearing set of unclassic rules imposed on this server. The solution is more content (velious) not more rules and bylaws to hand yourselves VP dragons.

Yea we can't believe ppl are stooping to these levels either, bring back 5 day variance, tactics from that era were awesome!

[TMBLOW]

What ? Go read the raid forums. THat is exactly what they asked for except they want VP to change from Class C to FFA on the sim repops so they don't have to swap classes if they kill them. My proposal is fair. It gives 2 Class C mobs left untouched for the duration of the bag limit. Heck 2 repops a month =4 kills for any guild that takes that path. It's pretty rewarding for anyone making the step up. But it has the penalty of being Class C and no longer eligible for the rotation.

Its an interesting idea but

this is what is funny about your Class C mindset, killing VP mobs and becoming Class C is referred to as a PENALTY. As a negative!!!

The attitude is: ha ha ur now class C, suck it no more handouts lolz

The attitude should be: damn, they beat us to the dragon. GG

Having VP be FFA on repops would allow for some amazing RnF....

[Heebo]

Yea we can't believe ppl are stooping to these levels either, bring back 5 day variance, tactics from that era were awesome!

I never said 96 hour variance was classic. I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring it up as that was exactly my point - unclassic rules being put into place to try to solve the raid scene when only new content can do that.

[Lazie]

Its an interesting idea but

this is what is funny about your Class C mindset, killing VP mobs and becoming Class C is referred to as a PENALTY. As a negative!!!

The attitude is: ha ha ur now class C, suck it no more handouts lolz

The attitude should be: damn, they beat us to the dragon. GG

Having VP be FFA on repops would allow for some amazing RnF....

No in this case Killing in Class C is a positive. Changing to Class C is a positive now also. For instance when a Class C guild has a bad week they still kill 3 or 4 mobs that week. On top of those numbers you are now guaranteed 2 kills per repop in VP. It also wouldn't make amazing RNF. Class R guilds would simply wait until TMO/IB had killed their 2 in there and then kill what was left. It's a pointless change to go FFA on repops in VP. Make it carry weight. Have those mobs there alive begging to be killed and have a price for killing them

[botrainer]

Class R made this deal months ago, if they woulda seen that without VP the game isnt as fun they shoulda held out for some sorta VP rotation or kept talks at a stall.

Dont go back on your word now, means you cant be trust and would be no better then ISIS.

[arsenalpow]

Class R made this deal months ago, if they woulda seen that without VP the game isnt as fun they shoulda held out for some sorta VP rotation or kept talks at a stall.

Dont go back on your word now, means you cant be trust and would be no better then ISIS.

You're a fucking moron. Class R didn't dictate anything. Rogean came down from on high and decided what would happen, period. Class R didn't get what we wanted, neither did C, it was what the staff wanted.

[TMBLOW]

. Class R guilds would simply wait until TMO/IB had killed their 2 in there and then kill what was left. It's a pointless change to go FFA on repops in VP.

that happens once.

then the Class R guild becomes Class C and cannot engage the final 2 charity VP dragons til the timer has passed as per your suggestion thusly being forced to be on FFA terms of engagement all the time 24/7

I will quit trying to bring logic into RnF when it comes to VP because it will be met with the same trolly responses.

VP being FFA only on a Sim-Repop would add a fun and challenging wrinkle to any guild's goals/agendas we currently have on the server. There is literally no downside to it.

Except.

The fact that class R guilds may possibility could maybe have a chance, albeit a small one, to acquire.......'gasp'..........

VP loot. OMG THE HORROR.

So. If wanna see things change up, see guilds move up tiers and more competition in VP. There's only two choices.

Make VP FFA on Repops or clearly define what would go into allowing a Class C guild step back down to Class R.

Until then, no Class R guild will even bother wasting any thoughts about VP ( til maybe Velious ) which is exactly what those in Class C want to see: their VP playground intact.

what was this thread even about lol

[iruinedyourday]

I'd suggest repop FFA. They're literally the only fun part of raiding anymore.

100%

First time I found out there was a merb my guild was locked out of, during a repop.. Well that was pretty fricken stupid I thought.

[Servellious]

Lol what. The raid scene was horrendous before these rules. People who wanted "competition" simply zerg joined TMO. The problem is and always was the lack of content, which you allude to in the very next sentence.

FE was formed and killed VS 10 days later being formed. IB has come back to the server and is killing dragons and raid mobs. Its about being organized and putting in the effort not begging server gm's for more rules.

[botrainer]

Ok then, I say to end ALL ROTATION! And once weekly, randomly semi pop everything. While also adding a Draco / trakanon repop randomly between the weekly full repops. No more tracking rules since no one knows when it spawns. Give us the element of surprise back.

Guilds can select which targets they value more and set up there (true people with more level 60s and 2 52's will rule the market) but with full repop as the only option of seeing raid mobs, it allows a window for each guild to target mobs. Removes ALL the tracking, and the poopsocking.

Only rules you leave in place are bag limits, 2 out of vp, unlimited in VP. No Training, and NO stall tanking (aka stall tanking with BP clr / warrior until force shows up to actually kill, really retarded to watch just a warrior, clr and maybe bard stand there for 10 mins as the force logs in, zones in and trys to form up for the actual kill.

Semi repops are the best way to allow both class R and C to get into VP. Puts more classic back into it when there is some sort of race. Its Everquest, not ever-track.

[Tasslehofp99]

It's never gonna happen, and it shouldn't happen.

this, join class C if you want to raid VP...its simple AND you will get access to more spawns.

[Freakish]

These class R guilds will get destroyed trying to compete on Trakanon.

[Mockba1980]

Its about being organized and putting in the effort not begging server gm's for more rules.

Indeed

[SyanideGas]

mewmewmew pixels.

[TMBLOW]

this, join class C if you want to raid VP...its simple AND you will get access to more spawns.

you guys are really sad.

Of course this is what you cling to because it keeps the warm bodies joining the ranks of TMO/IB which keeps the pixels flowing

VP is not some magic place, people are locked out bc of a key not brain function

Stop saying 'try harder' and stop loling at the thought that VP dragons will be killed by a guild tag other than TMO/IB

Class C is a playstyle ( competative 24/7 for every raid mob avail C/FFA )
Class R is a playstyle ( restrictive, having cool downs after successful kills )

The reason the puppets cling to their "join Class C to VP" mantra is because it keeps the pixels flowing for THEM.

If VP were FFA on a REPOP ( this means maybe 1-3 times at most a month lol ) you 'might' once in a while, on occasion, see a guild other than IB/TMO step foot in there.

So its really not even that big of change!!

But for the mere fact that it jeopardizes Class C VP pixels, even if its a 2% chance that a non IB/TMO guild downs a VP dragon.....the outcry would be incredible.

So what game exactly do you guys want to play? It certainly doesnt involve much competition, nor are any of your suggestions involve much of viable change in dynamics.

and like I alrdy said, Class R guilds WOULD join Class C like you said....if there was a clearer direction in how to reverse that process if it fit their members. Without that, it is like I said guild suicide.

[wycca]

There's no denying that using the word "raid" in the same sentence as a mob that has 32k hp is just stupid.

Nevertheless, if you want VP - go to C. There's nothing preventing anyone from dropping the rotation and getting more trak teeth - which is a significant and real barrier to entry. It's also entirely a side effect of being in the rotation. Past that, it's all organization & desire. If you don't got it, don't expect all the rewards to fall in your lap. It's everyones choice on how they play, but you can't expect every playstyle to have the same rewards.

The argument to make all repops FFA and to eliminate the FFA category from normal mobs is a good one - that's why I proposed it in the FAP forum months ago. It's a smart way to allow some competition (which believe it or not a majority of the R guilds want), without the stupidity of Cothduck-quest and poopsocks that Class C and FFA consists of.

On the flip side, this is all moot shortly. Velious being FFA is going to allow things to sort out, and I'll tell you that EVERY guild (yes every guild) is woefully unprepared for Velious. It's anyone's game....as long as people have some vision and are willing to put in some work. What's likely to happen is the guilds who don't do anything to make their future better (ie prepare for Velious) and don't get the resources ready (ie trackers & coth bots) in advance are going to be outclassed. Then they'll whine later about how unfair it all is....when they could've been spending the last 5 months (and the next 4 months) working to make their lot better. Yes, beta is a great resource, and people that don't have an ounce of foresight to see how insanely amazing having it available as a tool to hone your competitiveness for the next several years is...just needs to be banned from complaining.

While I respect and consider friends much of the R guild leadership that I talk to and have worked with, I am absolutely appalled at the utter lack of focus they've given Beta & prepping for Velious, and it's going to hurt their guilds' success immensely. Even C guilds have been making poor use of beta. So yea, Velious is gonna be a popcorn show, guilds will fold, new ones will be born, and don't say I didn't tell ya. It's quite possible that the guilds that simply show up (IB, TMO, and Taken) will end up doing well merely by dint of showing up, but there's room for a smart guild who is prepared to be a winner too...except nobody is taking advantage of that path. Total lack of foresight.

[Hitpoint]

and like I alrdy said, Class R guilds WOULD join Class C like you said....if there was a clearer direction in how to reverse that process if it fit their members. Without that, it is like I said guild suicide.

Pretty sure the process is: Don't kill a class C mob for 1 month, then petition a GM to move you to class R. Pretty clear direction imo.

[Raev]

effort

Effort/Dedication being the usual code words for "staring at my computer screen doing nothing".

Also Cobble my prediction for a long time has been that the 10ish R guilds will just melt away when Velious comes, forming 1-2 new C guilds and 7-8 true R guilds. Most R guillds have small cores of people who do 90% of the work and they don't really care because they have all the pixels they can get anyway. When Velious comes and their warm bodies are training them in ToV and missing CH chains and generally fucking up its going to get tiring real fast. That combined with the presumably smaller focus on FTE in Velious and the huge amount of gear.

[Anichek]

Yea but the thing is vp is meant to make a guild choose between c or r.

I disagree, Merkk - VP was the piece that Class R still wanted, but didn't get, as part of the decision that was made by Rogean.

As part of the compromise, both sides (C and R) weren't going to walk away happy. VP and the FFA cycle were those points for R, # of dedicated spawns to R was the point for C.

I'm surprised that my posts in Raid Discussion took this long to gain some RnF footing - the point of my posts was to try to inspire some conversation to continue to improve and stablize the raid scene on multiple fronts. Tracking, CotH ducking, socking, FFA "competition", lack of "progression" from R to C (which will NEVER work, because it is a difference in approaches to the game).

If nothing else, the second post regarding trackers and engagement bans for all characters in zone is reasonable and controls CotH ducking, kiting, etc.

[jcr4990]

ITT: Class C raid members that forgot C stands for "Competitive"

Explain to me why a rotation of Class R / FFA / Class R / FFA on every mob in the game is a bad thing. You guys DO want Competition right? Or do you just want free/easy pixels in VP? Reading this thread its kinda feeling like the latter is true.

[Shinko]

If Class R people want to experience VP, they have their options:

- Join a Class C guild
- Have their existing guild upgrade to Class C
- Go do it on another server

[toosweet]

Welfare guilds always wanting more.
The server owes its to them right?
They got kids they need to feed and somebody(not them) needs to be held accountable.

[Jfertal]

I'll cut you

[Ravager]

Just make it so that once a Class R guild gets 15 Trakanon kills they become Class C. >=D

Going rotation only, that would take two years and by then you've already bled half of your vp keys to ib/tmo.

[Raev]

ITT: Class C raid members that forgot C stands for "Competitive

No no, in their minds its really class P for Pixels and class W for welfare.

I do wish Sirken had not deleted all those posts by Unbrella and Doraf extolling the virtues of EverQuest competition. I think I could even challenge the Clear v Clear thread.

On second thought, probably not. That was genius.

[Detoxx]

You class r guilds keep claiming that we are worried about our pixel flow in vp, but don't even realize that 4/6 dragons in there have loot that sucks. Your incessant bitching and crying 10 months ago killed this server and any semblance of classic eq that was left. You truthfully don't deserve what you get now, and definitely don't deserve free shots in vp.

I could even look past all that but then I think about taken sitting in kc with 55 people for vs. Ib had 10, tmo had 10. The LAST thing we need is 60 people sitting at vp entrance coth ducking. Step up or shut up ffs.

[Ravager]

You class r guilds keep claiming that we are worried about our pixel flow in vp, but don't even realize that 4/6 dragons in there have loot that sucks. Your incessant bitching and crying 10 months ago killed this server and any semblance of classic eq that was left. You truthfully don't deserve what you get now, and definitely don't deserve free shots in vp.

I could even look past all that but then I think about taken sitting in kc with 55 people for vs. Ib had 10, tmo had 10. The LAST thing we need is 60 people sitting at vp entrance coth ducking. Step up or shut up ffs.

Pretty sure it was TMO monopolizing the end game for years that killed the server and the rotation revitalized it. Unless you think a 400 pop at peak hours is healthier than 1k. If raiding here sucks so bad to you now, why are you here?

[Detoxx]

Pretty sure it was TMO monopolizing the end game for years that killed the server and the rotation revitalized it. Unless you think a 400 pop at peak hours is healthier than 1k. If raiding here sucks so bad to you now, why are you here?

1. Thats completely false. Population has been at over 1k since summer of 13.
2. Because its free and I have friends here that I happen to enjoy playing with.
1a. The servers population has been decreasing lately, even with your carebear reform.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

You class r guilds keep claiming that we are worried about our pixel flow in vp, but don't even realize that 4/6 dragons in there have loot that sucks. Your incessant bitching and crying 10 months ago killed this server and any semblance of classic eq that was left. You truthfully don't deserve what you get now, and definitely don't deserve free shots in vp.

I could even look past all that but then I think about taken sitting in kc with 55 people for vs. Ib had 10, tmo had 10. The LAST thing we need is 60 people sitting at vp entrance coth ducking. Step up or shut up ffs.

The number of people sitting at the zone in is irrelevant, because FTE is what matters. Perhaps you guys should stop worrying about other guilds' numbers and actually concentrate on getting FTE. Step up or shut up ffs.

P.S. Don't even try to act like TMO wouldn't be shitsocking with 60 people -right in- VS's room if the rules were not in place. I have seen you fuckers do it many times.

[Detoxx]

The number of people sitting at the zone in is irrelevant, because FTE is what matters. Perhaps you guys should stop worrying about other guilds' numbers and actually concentrate on getting FTE. Step up or shut up ffs.

P.S. Don't even try to act like TMO wouldn't be shitsocking with 60 people -right in- VS's room if the rules were not in place. I have seen you fuckers do it many times.

Lol ok buddy. Its ok to poop sock if you aren't tmo. Duly noted. And you are 100% wrong. Ask old FE members how often we sat in vs lair. Was slim to none. Take your jabs though, it sure is tough to get fte when you are coth ducking. It has nothing to do with luck. At all. Seriously. You guys are so pro, but have no balls to step up to class c at stake of losing your free handouts.

[Ravager]

Lol ok buddy. Its ok to poop sock if you aren't tmo. Duly noted. And you are 100% wrong. Ask old FE members how often we sat in vs lair. Was slim to none. Take your jabs though, it sure is tough to get fte when you are coth ducking. It has nothing to do with luck. At all. Seriously. You guys are so pro, but have no balls to step up to class c at stake of losing your free handouts.

Who is FE? The guild you guys always wanted to step up and compete with then merged with? Also, those guys you merged with were the biggest poopsockers around.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

Lol ok buddy. Its ok to poop sock if you aren't tmo. Duly noted. And you are 100% wrong. Ask old FE members how often we sat in vs lair. Was slim to none. Take your jabs though, it sure is tough to get fte when you are coth ducking. It has nothing to do with luck. At all. Seriously. You guys are so pro, but have no balls to step up to class c at stake of losing your free handouts.

Oh, did I say FE? I didn't think I did. Also, I don't think you understood the point of my post. Apparently reading can be difficult at times.

Please explain how another guild's members sitting at the zone in is preventing you from getting FTE. Go ahead, i'll wait for you to think of an answer.

[Detoxx]

Who is FE? The guild you guys always wanted to step up and compete with then merged with? Also, those guys you merged with were the biggest poopsockers around.

No, FE is just one of a couple guilds that split off from bda because they realized that you guys suck and were being lead by a 14 year old that can't stop holding a grudge so he's constantly a dickhead.

[Detoxx]

Oh, did I say FE? I didn't think I did. Also, I don't think you understood the point of my post. Apparently reading can be difficult at times.

Please explain how another guild's members sitting at the zone in is preventing you from getting FTE. Go ahead, i'll wait for you to think of an answer.

I brought up FE to make a point against your statement that tmo would be poopsocking vs if it was 10 months ago. Ya, I guess following your own statements is just as hard as reading.

And yes, you are correct. FTE is all that matters. But having 60 people at zone in is contradicting and hypocritical to your guys stance on raiding when it was being revised. "We don't want to track, we don't want to poop sock, we don't want to batphone." All bullshit in the name of free pixels because there you sit... tracking, batphoning, and poopsocking. "Class c and class r are just different raiding styles, that's all!" Bullshit

[Eponymous Anonymous]

I brought up FE to make a point against your statement that tmo would be poopsocking vs if it was 10 months ago. Ya, I guess following your own statements is just as hard as reading.

What the hell does FE have to do with this? I said TMO.. T M O. That's the guild you're in (check in-game if you don't believe me). I can type it with more spaces between the letters if that will help you understand.

"We don't want to track, we don't want to poop sock, we don't want to batphone."

News flash Action Jackson, we did all that stuff 10 months ago. The difference is we did not want to do it at the neckbeard level that you guys did. Spawn windows were exponentially longer 10 months ago also. If they were that long still I can almost guarantee that class R guilds wouldn't be doing it.

Back then, the hardcore (Class C) guilds asserted that the casuals (now labeled class R) didn't want to put forth the effort and that's why we shouldn't get dragons. While that may have been true to some extent, now you guys are crying because we are putting forth that effort, and now you are the ones who don't want to compete with it. If anyone is being hypocritical here it's you guys.

[Nuktari]

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/730195/82997661.gif

[dustysr06]

class R should not get VP mobs, nor be allowed to kill them on repops- chest can 'define' class C and R all he wants, saying its play-style but im fairly sure i remember server staff indicating class R was there to prepare for class C

the server has always been this way, its a naturally occurring in every game... you have more casual guilds where its more hardcore members eventually move on to more hardcore guilds, and said casual guild continues to bring in more warm bodies to fill those voids. i dont like the term 'feeder' but i have full faith and confidence in guilds like Taken and BDA to 'compete' in and outside of VP- because of the 'practice' they've had in class R... rotation has done its job- now if you want more content, its time to move up to the next class imo?

[Detoxx]

What the hell does FE have to do with this? I said TMO.. T M O. That's the guild you're in (check in-game if you don't believe me). I can type it with more spaces between the letters if that will help you understand.

Wow. Read what I said. I said ask old FE members how much we poopsocked vs to make the point that we never did. If you can't understand what I'm trying to say, then god help you.

News flash Action Jackson, we did all that stuff 10 months ago. The difference is we did not want to do it at the neckbeard level that you guys did. Spawn windows were exponentially longer 10 months ago also. If they were that long still I can almost guarantee that class R guilds wouldn't be doing it.

Back then, the hardcore (Class C) guilds asserted that the casuals (now labeled class R) didn't want to put forth the effort and that's why we shouldn't get dragons. While that may have been true to some extent, now you guys are crying because we are putting forth that effort, and now you are the ones who don't want to compete with it. If anyone is being hypocritical here it's you guys.

Please tell me what exactly you were batphoning before the raid rules? Chardok Royals? If you did batphone before, it was for nothing important. Also, sitting at kc entrance with 55 people plus is pretty neckbeard so you're just talking in circles here. You win.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

sitting at kc entrance with 55 people plus is pretty neckbeard so you're just talking in circles here.

You think 10 people autorunning against the wall at the entrance isn't as neckbeard as 55+ people sitting at the entrance not doing that?

You win.

I know.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

class R should not get VP mobs, nor be allowed to kill them on repops- chest can 'define' class C and R all he wants, saying its play-style but im fairly sure i remember server staff indicating class R was there to prepare for class C

the server has always been this way, its a naturally occurring in every game... you have more casual guilds where its more hardcore members eventually move on to more hardcore guilds, and said casual guild continues to bring in more warm bodies to fill those voids. i dont like the term 'feeder' but i have full faith and confidence in guilds like Taken and BDA to 'compete' in and outside of VP- because of the 'practice' they've had in class R... rotation has done its job- now if you want more content, its time to move up to the next class imo?

I agree with this.

[Llodd]

Well whatever. Staff wanted people to experience Everquest which includes dragons and what not.

Only got yourselves to blame for the way it worked out. If only you had thrown the casual scum a bone when you had the chance instead of trying to pretend like it was still the cutthroat 1999 experience after 4 fucking years you'd still have your precious monopoly.

Unlucky. You fucked up.<insert deal with it gif here>

[arsenalpow]

No, FE is just one of a couple guilds that split off from bda because they realized that you guys suck and were being lead by a 14 year old that can't stop holding a grudge so he's constantly a dickhead.

You're so ignorant. FE split off because they basically tried to stage a coup and when that didn't work they wanted to fundamentally change BDA to fit their image of a guild. They didn't get their way so they left.

Am I constantly being a dickhead or am I maintaining my integrity by sticking to my guns? You can hate me all you fucking want but the one thing you can be fucking sure of is that I've maintained the same fucking position the entire time. That's called integrity. Something TMO wouldn't understand. Something FE wouldn't understand. I don't bow to pixels out of convenience. We stay the course at BDA. I know that's a wild fucking concept but hopefully someday you'll figure it out.

[Detoxx]

Well whatever. Staff wanted people to stop bitching and crying, so after 3 years of listening to it, they finally caved.

Ftfy. Btw, ever wonder why they were always leaning in favor of class c during all that? They knew it was bullshit, imo.

[Llodd]

Ftfy. Btw, ever wonder why they were always leaning in favor of class c during all that? They knew it was bullshit, imo.

Well maybe if you keep up your bitching for 3 more years they'll cave to you too.

Clueless.

[Sirken]

couple things.


1. We arent changing the R/C/FFA cycle to anything else.
2. VP mobs will remain Class C only mobs for as long as its the top endgame zone.
3. I will talk to the staff about a concrete way for guilds to be able to move from C to R, however this has to be done very carefully to prevent top guilds from moving down to R.


This system was created and implemented with the expectation that most of the FFA mobs would go to Class C. The idea was never to "take away" from Class C so much as it was to try and allow more non Class C players to experience raid content, as well as a stepping stone to join Class C when ready. Thus making Class C more tempting to newer, up and coming guilds, as Class C will still have a larger piece of the pixel pie, will not suffer from lockouts, will have exclusive rights to VP and the best loots in Kunark era, and is given more room by staff to work out their own disputes (as it is the non restricted class).

not everyone may agree with this, but this is the position of the staff.

[Raev]

Detoxx, straight question here. The whole point of Class C is to compete, yes? So why are you guys so concerned with keeping stuff like VP Class C and not FFA? What would you say to a system where:

1. Repops straight FFA, 2 bag limit outside of VP
2. Normal spawns alternate FFA/R outside of VP, pure FFA inside
3. All guilds are in the Class R rotation, which becomes GM enforced.

In other words there is no C/R distinction, just some guilds are more successful with the FFA targets than others.

[arsenalpow]

Because they don't really want to compete. They'll find a new way to game the system every chance they get, they'll absorb competition, and they LawyerQuest their way to uncontested spawns.

[Thulack]

Because they don't really want to compete. They'll find a new way to game the system every chance they get, they'll absorb competition, and they LawyerQuest their way to uncontested spawns.

Come velious the bitching will be cause TMO/IB have toons camped out at every mob and still end up getting a majority of the loot. Anyone that thinks that anything will change come velious is very naive.

[Oleris]

Come velious the bitching will be cause TMO/IB have toons camped out at every mob and still end up getting a majority of the loot. Anyone that thinks that anything will change come velious is very naive.

From what Sirken said today, you can't camp at spawns still in velious. So, unless someone can figure out how to survive dragging a train in ToV it will be a pain to go to dragons.

[arsenalpow]

From what Sirken said today, you can't camp at spawns still in velious. So, unless someone can figure out how to survive dragging a train in ToV it will be a pain to go to dragons.

it will be more difficult to sock velious only because you can't earfuck a dragon when it has more than 32k hp, but as long as kunark/orig has 7 day spawns those will be easy to pick off with a camped out force and TMO/IB will definitely go after that stuff when it suits them. They've said PD and Hoshkar will be targets they chase even into velious.

[Detoxx]

They've said PD and Hoshkar will be targets they chase even into velious.

No we havent. Hoshkar has nothing that transcends kunark, and not even close to worth it. PD/Druushk are the only targets I see as viable after velious.

[portbitch69]

The whole point of Class C is to compete, yes? So why are you guys so concerned with keeping stuff like VP Class C and not FFA?


they want to ccompete against you on everything, not just ffa targets... class c guilds want more class c guilds, not more ffa targets. and as usual class r guilds want more hand outs

[Tasslehofp99]

class R should not get VP mobs, nor be allowed to kill them on repops- chest can 'define' class C and R all he wants, saying its play-style but im fairly sure i remember server staff indicating class R was there to prepare for class C

the server has always been this way, its a naturally occurring in every game... you have more casual guilds where its more hardcore members eventually move on to more hardcore guilds, and said casual guild continues to bring in more warm bodies to fill those voids. i dont like the term 'feeder' but i have full faith and confidence in guilds like Taken and BDA to 'compete' in and outside of VP- because of the 'practice' they've had in class R... rotation has done its job- now if you want more content, its time to move up to the next class imo?



This guy gets it.



You want VP dragons before velious? Take a chance then and make the leap. Otherwise just wait your turn in the class R loot vending machine line.

[Pokesan]

those dragons are mine by right because i spend 80 hours per week playing a video game

[Sirken]

those dragons are mine by right because i spend 80 hours per week playing a video game

watch it pal. those dragons belong to lady angel nilbog

[Hitpoint]

Pretty sure the process is: Don't kill a class C mob for 1 month, then petition a GM to move you to class R. Pretty clear direction imo.

Is this not the way it currently works?

[Doors]

Same shit different year. Every time blues toxic behavior ends up in RNF a thousand people shrug their shoulders and ignore it, yet flame the fuck out of anyone who champions red. I laugh every time I read posts from people on this server saying red is toxic when you have hundreds of people on blue whose sole purpose playing here is deprive everyone else of enjoyment. Same goes for any staff stating that red is more difficult to GM than blue. I don't see how staffing a server with 10x the server pop and raid rules bordering on insanity could possibly be easier or less toxic.

TMO uses the competitive argument but in all honesty, if they actually wanted competition they're playing on the wrong server. If any of these so called hard core raiders had any balls they would join Jeremy and others on red.

All you need to do is scan this thread for Detoxx's posts then apply his behavior and attitude to a few hundred people playing in TMO and IB to see which server truly houses the trash and this thread is proof of the problems blue is plagued with. And no new set of raid rules will ever fix the problem.

People tend to forget these raid rules were put in place because a single guild was cock blocking 95% of the playerbase from accomplishing anything simply because their enjoyment came from depriving others of having fun. Logging in at 4am on bat phones, 72 hour variance, FTE with 40 plus on VS, intentional training with VS faction, the list goes on. These aren't talents or skills acquired from playing the game but rather having no life and more time than the average player. Even if Soandso knew game mechanics, or were skilled at their class, it didn't matter. That's why this server will never actually have any type of real competition and the best players in this community gravitate away from here or just never played on blue in the first place.

But keep eating that shit sandwich and buying the hype that blue is where its at. Take a nice big bite and enjoy. When Velious hits everyone here is going to be really, really dissapointed. The same people that log in every week to slay the same raid mobs for 4 consecutive years aren't going away in Velious and they've been preparing alt armies with their spare time and money for a reason. The only thing your average player that makes up 95% of this servers playerbase will be killing will be the shit that doesn't matter and is left up by the no lifers. By the time you actually finish a sleepers key years down the road he's going to be woken up by the same toxic shit bags that have been denying people raid mobs in Kunark for 4 years and it will be done simply for the fact that these people do not want you to enjoy your time spent playing here.

[JPMorgan]

Same shit different year. Every time blues toxic behavior ends up in RNF a thousand people shrug their shoulders and ignore it, yet flame the fuck out of anyone who champions red. I laugh every time I read posts from people on this server saying red is toxic when you have hundreds of people on blue whose sole purpose playing here is deprive everyone else of enjoyment. Same goes for any staff stating that red is more difficult to GM than blue. I don't see how staffing a server with 10x the server pop and raid rules bordering on insanity could possibly be easier or less toxic.

TMO uses the competitive argument but in all honesty, if they actually wanted competition they're playing on the wrong server. If any of these so called hard core raiders had any balls they would join Jeremy and others on red.

All you need to do is scan this thread for Detoxx's posts then apply his behavior and attitude to a few hundred people playing in TMO and IB to see which server truly houses the trash and this thread is proof of the problems blue is plagued with. And no new set of raid rules will ever fix the problem.

People tend to forget these raid rules were put in place because a single guild was cock blocking 95% of the playerbase from accomplishing anything simply because their enjoyment came from depriving others of having fun. Logging in at 4am on bat phones, 72 hour variance, FTE with 40 plus on VS, intentional training with VS faction, the list goes on. These aren't talents or skills acquired from playing the game but rather having no life and more time than the average player. Even if Soandso knew game mechanics, or were skilled at their class, it didn't matter. That's why this server will never actually have any type of real competition and the best players in this community gravitate away from here or just never played on blue in the first place.

But keep eating that shit sandwich and buying the hype that blue is where its at. Take a nice big bite and enjoy. When Velious hits everyone here is going to be really, really dissapointed. The same people that log in every week to slay the same raid mobs for 4 consecutive years aren't going away in Velious and they've been preparing alt armies with their spare time and money for a reason. The only thing your average player that makes up 95% of this servers playerbase will be killing will be the shit that doesn't matter and is left up by the no lifers. By the time you actually finish a sleepers key years down the road he's going to be woken up by the same toxic shit bags that have been denying people raid mobs in Kunark for 4 years and it will be done simply for the fact that these people do not want you to enjoy your time spent playing here.

Site needs a thumps up option.

[Thulack]

This guy gets it.



You want VP dragons before velious? Take a chance then and make the leap. Otherwise just wait your turn in the class R loot vending machine line.

No thanks. The loot might aswell be compared to planar gear when it comes to 50% of the content in this game. What does VP gear really help you at? Soloing? Sure so a few classes that are good at soloing can get alittle better. Nah not worth it. VP gear good for raiding? Sure gives you more stats. Is it needed to raid anywhere? Nope. I dont see what the huge deal is about VP other then saying "Yay i beat the end game zone of Kunark 15 years after it came out!!" You guys want a pat on your back for that?

[Thulack]

Class R is a mindset, and here is your proof.

Yes not wanting a shitfest in a video game is a mindset. I'm not going to deny that 1 bit.

[dustysr06]

Same shit different year. Every time blues toxic behavior ends up in RNF a thousand people shrug their shoulders and ignore it, yet flame the fuck out of anyone who champions red. I laugh every time I read posts from people on this server saying red is toxic when you have hundreds of people on blue whose sole purpose playing here is deprive everyone else of enjoyment. Same goes for any staff stating that red is more difficult to GM than blue. I don't see how staffing a server with 10x the server pop and raid rules bordering on insanity could possibly be easier or less toxic.

TMO uses the competitive argument but in all honesty, if they actually wanted competition they're playing on the wrong server. If any of these so called hard core raiders had any balls they would join Jeremy and others on red.

All you need to do is scan this thread for Detoxx's posts then apply his behavior and attitude to a few hundred people playing in TMO and IB to see which server truly houses the trash and this thread is proof of the problems blue is plagued with. And no new set of raid rules will ever fix the problem.

People tend to forget these raid rules were put in place because a single guild was cock blocking 95% of the playerbase from accomplishing anything simply because their enjoyment came from depriving others of having fun. Logging in at 4am on bat phones, 72 hour variance, FTE with 40 plus on VS, intentional training with VS faction, the list goes on. These aren't talents or skills acquired from playing the game but rather having no life and more time than the average player. Even if Soandso knew game mechanics, or were skilled at their class, it didn't matter. That's why this server will never actually have any type of real competition and the best players in this community gravitate away from here or just never played on blue in the first place.

But keep eating that shit sandwich and buying the hype that blue is where its at. Take a nice big bite and enjoy. When Velious hits everyone here is going to be really, really dissapointed. The same people that log in every week to slay the same raid mobs for 4 consecutive years aren't going away in Velious and they've been preparing alt armies with their spare time and money for a reason. The only thing your average player that makes up 95% of this servers playerbase will be killing will be the shit that doesn't matter and is left up by the no lifers. By the time you actually finish a sleepers key years down the road he's going to be woken up by the same toxic shit bags that have been denying people raid mobs in Kunark for 4 years and it will be done simply for the fact that these people do not want you to enjoy your time spent playing here.

Aren't u in holo? Lols

[Doors]

Aren't u in holo? Lols

You mean the guild that invites anyone and epics people on a weekly basis? Yeah.

[Hailto]

to see which server truly houses the trash

http://i.imgur.com/KbYMbV4.jpg

What server do you play on again?

[Doors]

What server do you play on again?

Sorry I took my fungi back after you quit playing. Keep slinging mud though forumquest funner than the game sometimes.

[Hailto]

Sorry I took my fungi back after you quit playing. Keep slinging mud though forumquest funner than the game sometimes.

How many fungis did you farm with your mid 50s ranger?

[dustysr06]

You mean the guild that invites anyone and epics people on a weekly basis? Yeah.

Na i meant Nilly v2.0- the guild that recruits as many warm bodies as possible to zerg 15 year old pixels with 50+ at every raid, thus cock-blocking anyone else who wishes to actually have healthy competition on an already overly-toxic server. Founded by the longest of neckbeards who fought so hard to get rid of Nilly in the first place.

But as hailto pointed out, you are a major scumbag already- so sounds like you're right at home with your other griefer guild-mates.

[Visual]

enforce a class system on Red imo. Why should we be the only ones to suffer

[SyanideGas]

Doors how you livin bro? Long time friend.

[Reguiy]

I love all the TMO tears in this thread crying because lord rogean made them play by the same rules as everyone else.

[Cecily]

Same shit different year. Every time blues toxic behavior ends up in RNF a thousand people shrug their shoulders and ignore it, yet flame the fuck out of anyone who champions red. I laugh every time I read posts from people on this server saying red is toxic when I STOLE HALITO'S FUNGI TUNIC.

[Lojik]

Doors stole little Hal's fungi?

[Colgate]

Na i meant Nilly v2.0- the guild that recruits as many warm bodies as possible to zerg 15 year old pixels with 50+ at every raid, thus cock-blocking anyone else who wishes to actually have healthy competition on an already overly-toxic server. Founded by the longest of neckbeards who fought so hard to get rid of Nilly in the first place.

But as hailto pointed out, you are a major scumbag already- so sounds like you're right at home with your other griefer guild-mates.

you're in a guild that fields 20+ people at raids and is allied with a guild that fields almost 40 at raids

lul

[Detoxx]

God, get this red shit out of here. Who the fuck cares

[Colgate]

no

deal with it

8)

[Juryiel]

I keep seeing this 'Incentivize Class C' stuff both here and from the raid forum. Apparently GMs really want to get more guilds to move to class C as some sort of worth-while goal, but so far their attempts of keeping VP class C and having class C get more loot hasn't paid off. I have the solution.

Here's a complete step by step guide to accomplishing that:

1. Make competition between guilds fun.

Most people aren't going to want to play in a 'competitive' class when competitive means FTE poopfest. Yes, FTE poopfest is definitely effort, and maybe it should be rewarded with all sorts of VPs, but for most people, all the VPs in the world aren't enough to get them to be part of that.

If competition between guilds is made to be fun somehow guilds will just go to class C when they feel they are able. Obviously a bunch of guilds now COULD go to class C, but they don't even though there are VPs on the line, which must mean that the class C play style is not even close to neutral in terms of fun for these guilds. Now, I'm not sure how you can accomplish step #1 there, but if it's not possible, then I ask, why even try to incentivize people to play in ways that are not fun but instead come down to poopfest FTE, especially considering how GMs have also claimed they don't really want people to play that way? The type of 'effort' people generally want to put into EQ is mostly PVE rather than various forms of PVP, specifically because EQ mechanics. This is not to say that class C shouldn't have exclusive VP access. If GMs want to reward the type of effort it takes to be class C, by all means. But for most people, desire for loot will not trump desire to play in ways that are fun - and that's a good thing - so this method of incentivizing wont' really get very far.

This is actually very similar to telling people from blue to go play on red. Even with all of the exp boosts, and all of the content guilds could be taking on red, they won't go. They would sooner run out of content on blue and quit.

So in both cases this 'incentivizing' is misguided, and at best translates to an effort to get people to log into a 15 year old game to do something that isn't having fun. Good luck with that effort.

TL;DR
Blah blah Class R blah blah Class C blah blah VP.

[SyanideGas]

I keep seeing this 'Incentivize Class C' stuff both here and from the raid forum. Apparently GMs really want to get more guilds to move to class C as some sort of worth-while goal, but so far their attempts of keeping VP class C and having class C get more loot hasn't paid off. I have the solution.

Here's a complete step by step guide to accomplishing that:

1. Make competition between guilds fun.

Most people aren't going to want to play in a 'competitive' class when competitive means FTE poopfest. Yes, FTE poopfest is definitely effort, and maybe it should be rewarded with all sorts of VPs, but for most people, all the VPs in the world aren't enough to get them to be part of that.

If competition between guilds is made to be fun somehow guilds will just go to class C when they feel they are able. Obviously a bunch of guilds now COULD go to class C, but they don't even though there are VPs on the line, which must mean that the class C play style is not even close to neutral in terms of fun for these guilds. Now, I'm not sure how you can accomplish step #1 there, but if it's not possible, then I ask, why even try to incentivize people to play in ways that are not fun but instead come down to poopfest FTE, especially considering how GMs have also claimed they don't really want people to play that way? The type of 'effort' people generally want to put into EQ is mostly PVE rather than various forms of PVP, specifically because EQ mechanics. This is not to say that class C shouldn't have exclusive VP access. If GMs want to reward the type of effort it takes to be class C, by all means. But for most people, desire for loot will not trump desire to play in ways that are fun - and that's a good thing - so this method of incentivizing wont' really get very far.

This is actually very similar to telling people from blue to go play on red. Even with all of the exp boosts, and all of the content guilds could be taking on red, they won't go. They would sooner run out of content on blue and quit.

So in both cases this 'incentivizing' is misguided, and at best translates to an effort to get people to log into a 15 year old game to do something that isn't having fun. Good luck with that effort.

TL;DR
Blah blah Class R blah blah Class C blah blah VP.

Can get on board with what you just said.

[sulpher01]

Why does everyone skip over the obvious solution.... both class C and R seem to agree that the only fun time on this server competition wise is during the simulated repops. Why not just make the only repops the simulated repops? Just do more of them.

[arsenalpow]

Why does everyone skip over the obvious solution.... both class C and R seem to agree that the only fun time on this server competition wise is during the simulated repops. Why not just make the only repops the simulated repops? Just do more of them.

Because they're manually done and not having a timed repop is not classic (even if there's variance.

I think you're right though, each side likes repops because it's an actual race as opposed to socking with coth duckers.

[Fanguru]

When you want a customer to get hooked on something, you let them try it first.

Maybe class R would be more interested in VP if we could go for a target on a rare occasion without risking the jump to class C.

I don't understand class C reluctance, some of their members keep saying half the dragons in there don't even drop anything they need.

It's a shame staff made it pretty clear VP will remain C only, and class C guards VP just to avoid losing any ground and keep looking down on filthy casuals.

[arsenalpow]

When you want a customer to get hooked on something, you let them try it first.

Maybe class R would be more interested in VP if we could go for a target on a rare occasion without risking the jump to class C.

I don't understand class C reluctance, some of their members keep saying half the dragons in there don't even drop anything they need.

It's a shame staff made it pretty clear VP will remain C only, and class C guards VP just to avoid losing any ground and keep looking down on filthy casuals.

The reluctance to join class C is due to being forced to raid against the sociopaths that are TMO/IB.

[Fanguru]

I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I was talking about the class C reluctance to give up any single dragon in VP to class R.

[sulpher01]

Because they're manually done and not having a timed repop is not classic (even if there's variance.

I think you're right though, each side likes repops because it's an actual race as opposed to socking with coth duckers.

It's not like it would be hard to work out though... soon as the last mobs dead start the global respawn timer.

[arsenalpow]

It's not like it would be hard to work out though... soon as the last mobs dead start the global respawn timer.

The staff has been pretty clear that they aren't going to code any changes to the rotation system. The current repops are triggered whenever Rogean feels like it. It's not going to change.

[Whirled]

ITT: Nerds thinking playing video games takes balls.

[sulpher01]

The staff has been pretty clear that they aren't going to code any changes to the rotation system. The current repops are triggered whenever Rogean feels like it. It's not going to change.

Seems kinda silly since they made the changes in the first place... first shots the best I guess?

[kotton05]

The reluctance to join class C is due to being forced to raid against the sociopaths that are TMO/IB.

Your constant bashing just shows that you're the sociopath. Most of us are pretty chill TMO and IB alike. I suggest doing some more QnA on reddit, white nighting and holding onto that old raid scene bitterness comes very natural with you. Now go collect your handouts... Move along move along >_>

[arsenalpow]

Your constant bashing just shows that you're the sociopath. Most of us are pretty chill TMO and IB alike. I suggest doing some more QnA on reddit, white nighting and holding onto that old raid scene bitterness comes very natural with you. Now go collect your handouts... Move along move along >_>

The new raid scene developed due to the monopolization of content by first TR/IB then TMO. The raid scene would still be like that if it weren't for staff intervention. It took fucking staff intervention to make you guys stop acting like jackasses and even now the idiocy spills out. Here's some examples:

The complete frothing outrage directed at class R and me personally because you didn't like a staff mandated solution that you brought on yourselves.

Lampooning class R when we established a rotation in days and maintained it for almost a year now. Something your kind couldn't do, which caused the staff to intervene.

The scumbag flaming of Catherin after the autofire debacle after TMO/IB pretended that they never once ever were autofiring and Catherin was the true villain, give me a break.

The constant beating Taken is getting over coth ducking when TMO/IB is happily doing it and being successful doing so.

The back alley trade offs when it comes to discipline issues between IB and TMO compared to screaming for the book to be thrown at class R guilds anytime something happens. (Nagafen, Lord)

Screaming for competition then absorbing the competition.

Do I need to keep going? I'll keep calling a spade a spade, just because you don't like the truth doesn't mean it's not true.

[kotton05]

What are you even talking about? You paint us as some foreign creatures. You bring up points that are irrelevant from a time way more toxic. By all means let the hatred flow.

Acting like you had much to do with the rotation. FE was the cause of the change and you're just riding the wave caused by them. As for joining the competition you still have no idea behind why that happened. Stay bitter.

[arsenalpow]

What are you even talking about? You paint us as some foreign creatures. You bring up points that are irrelevant from a time way more toxic. By all means let the hatred flow.

Acting like you had much to do with the rotation. FE was the cause of the change and you're just riding the wave caused by them. As for joining the competition you still have no idea behind why that happened. Stay bitter.

So I make relevant points, you issue a blanket dismissal and then cherry on top is saying FE was the impetus for the raid scene changes. You're beyond delusional. Thanks for making my point for me.

[Hitpoint]

The scumbag flaming of Catherin after the autofire debacle after TMO/IB pretended that they never once ever were autofiring and Catherin was the true villain, give me a break.

Anyone who actually was actually caught autofiring would have taken a huge beating on here.

The constant beating Taken is getting over coth ducking when TMO/IB is happily doing it and being successful doing so.

Nobody is happy doing this. Proof: Class C does not coth duck class C mobs. We're forced to for FFA ones.

The back alley trade offs when it comes to discipline issues between IB and TMO compared to screaming for the book to be thrown at class R guilds anytime something happens. (Nagafen, Lord)

Don't act like it's shady or something. EQ has agro mechanics that aren't always intuitive and are very volatile. Accidents or recklessness can easily cause raid interference that cost mobs for another guild. If class C was petitioning every little infraction, GMs would be pissed. Not to mention we've been flat out told that this is how raid disputes must be handled.

You were approached about that Nagafen before it ever went to GMs. And you basically got a slap on the wrist, so I don't know why you'd even bring it up.

Screaming for competition then absorbing the competition.

Stealing members from opposition, better recruiting, orchestrating mergers. This is part of competition in this game unfortunately.


Responses in bold.

[kotton05]

You're just too much. While I love you I gotta say you're a fire giant for not seeing how if it wasn't for FE rocking the boat You'd not have ur class system.

Your jimmies are so rustled over olden times you're blind. It's blah blah blah class c hatred from you 24/7. What have we done lately that has effected you? All your hatred I spent up latent bitterness. Let it go.

[Heebo]

You're just too much. While I love you I gotta say you're a fire giant for not seeing how if it wasn't for FE rocking the boat You'd not have ur class system.

Your jimmies are so rustled over olden times you're blind. It's blah blah blah class c hatred from you 24/7. What have we done lately that has effected you? All your hatred I spent up latent bitterness. Let it go.

http://cdn04.cdn.justjaredjr.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2013/12/frozen-let-it-go-full-scene-watch-now.png

[Whirled]

I like music... but that song is painful on every level of existence.

[Clark]

http://c4.diapers.com/images/products/p/hp/hp-008_1z.jpg

lol

[Hitpoint]

Now we're being petitioned for something that we didn't do, and Derubael says the community should decide our punishment and fate. Yea, I'm sure IB and all of class R will hear us out. I can't possibly think of a more inappropriate way to handle this.

[arsenalpow]

You're just too much. While I love you I gotta say you're a fire giant for not seeing how if it wasn't for FE rocking the boat You'd not have ur class system.

Your jimmies are so rustled over olden times you're blind. It's blah blah blah class c hatred from you 24/7. What have we done lately that has effected you? All your hatred I spent up latent bitterness. Let it go.

Sinking to the lowest level isn't rocking the boat, it's putting pixels before integrity. Not to mention FE was getting curbstomped in VP until IB came back and double your raid force. FE had what 1 dragon kill in VP in a year then not another until the PD room campout sockfest?

There's no bitterness, I'm not sure why you're a broken record. Ball don't lie and I'm only speaking the truth, just embrace it instead of distorting it.

[nyclin]

gm staff should just put everything on an enforced rotation since you're all a bunch of whiny crybabies

what would be the real downside? it's not like anyone invested enough in the game to cry over raid rotations would quit.

enforced rotation + more frequent sim repops, with full documentation of rules rather than the clusterfuck of forum-post precedents that currently exist. whiny class R players get their loot, whiny class C players can quit if they don't like it, and rnf posters can bathe in the ensuing deluge of tears.

[kotton05]

If only there was a case study thread over petition rulings to have as a set guide.

[kotton05]

Also lol at showing someone the spawn point to watch then using twisted screen shots without time stamps to say we was there when he spawned.

Cat is lawyering hard where is the ss when sev spawned and our trackers there... Oh don't have those do ya?

[nyclin]

the fact that there's a case study thread to establish the current rules set kind of highlights my point about the rules being a clusterfuck, hth

[kotton05]

True that^

[Ravager]

I'd rather the clusterfuck be on the boards than in the game like it was before.

[Sirken]

VP (in regards to Class R and Class C) were discussed last night, enjoy - http://youtu.be/HUGQszYyf6o

[nyclin]

tl;dw gimme a timestamp sirken

[Fanguru]

Not sure where this number of 30 Taken being ready for VP comes from, but it is wrong.

[kotton05]

VP (in regards to Class R and Class C) were discussed last night, enjoy - http://youtu.be/HUGQszYyf6o

Enjoyed listening!

[Juryiel]

Interesting perceptions:

1. Class R rotation takes too long to allow new guilds who are not at the top of class R to gear enough and go to class C. Without the guilds who are at the top of class R moving to class C, the rotation is too long and you don't get enough shots to gear up.

2. New guilds also can't start at class C because without the necessary players / gear they will always lose out to TMO/IB so the theoretically larger number of targets would not play out in practice.

So new guilds with class C mentality will either be slowed down by the class R rotation if they go for class R mobs, or by already established class C guilds if they go for class C mobs. I think the sim repop argument for going to class C is compelling once you have a large established player base that is on at all hours, but random unexpected spawns for smaller guilds are not easy to get even in the 2 hours TMO/IB spend in VP. Rotation helps in that you know when you're up, and you know approximately when the mob will spawn, whereas with a sim repop and a small guild, they may just have no one on and get nothing.

If class C guilds mainly cared about PVP race competition much more so than amassing loot, then an acceptable solution would be to distribute mobs between class R and class C in a way proportional to the number guilds that are in these classes. This would speed up new guilds aiming to get to class C in gearing up, and when they do transition to class C, class C would get more mobs since the number of class R guilds goes down and the number of class C guilds goes up. Of course, there's a big IF at the beginning of this solution. But the rotation only takes so long because it's only 1 of every 3 spawns that goes to the rotation, and that rotation contains the vast majority of server guilds so of course gearing up with the current distribution of mobs will be slow. The distribution could be adaptive, and then guilds' real motives would be revealed.

Another solution would be to force-move class R guilds to class C after some criteria have been met (number of active players, etc), such that they can succeed well-enough against established guilds especially during sim repops. Have some requirement to be in class R basically (but anyone who wants could be in class C). Probably dangerous for server population if those guilds are really opposed to the PVP race thing though, unless the criterion is set appropriately.

Interesting, I wonder if anything will come of these considerations and discussions going on fairly widely across the server.

[Nukehard]

Not sure where this number of 30 Taken being ready for VP comes from, but it is wrong.

If so many ready for VP why don't they go class c? :p sound scared to me!

[Lazie]

Interesting perceptions:

1. Class R rotation takes too long to allow new guilds who are not at the top of class R to gear enough and go to class C. Without the guilds who are at the top of class R moving to class C, the rotation is too long and you don't get enough shots to gear up.

2. New guilds also can't start at class C because without the necessary players / gear they will always lose out to TMO/IB so the theoretically larger number of targets would not play out in practice.

So new guilds with class C mentality will either be slowed down by the class R rotation if they go for class R mobs, or by already established class C guilds if they go for class C mobs. I think the sim repop argument for going to class C is compelling once you have a large established player base that is on at all hours, but random unexpected spawns for smaller guilds are not easy to get even in the 2 hours TMO/IB spend in VP. Rotation helps in that you know when you're up, and you know approximately when the mob will spawn, whereas with a sim repop and a small guild, they may just have no one on and get nothing.

If class C guilds mainly cared about PVP race competition much more so than amassing loot, then an acceptable solution would be to distribute mobs between class R and class C in a way proportional to the number guilds that are in these classes. This would speed up new guilds aiming to get to class C in gearing up, and when they do transition to class C, class C would get more mobs since the number of class R guilds goes down and the number of class C guilds goes up. Of course, there's a big IF at the beginning of this solution. But the rotation only takes so long because it's only 1 of every 3 spawns that goes to the rotation, and that rotation contains the vast majority of server guilds so of course gearing up with the current distribution of mobs will be slow. The distribution could be adaptive, and then guilds' real motives would be revealed.

Another solution would be to force-move class R guilds to class C after some criteria have been met (number of active players, etc), such that they can succeed well-enough against established guilds especially during sim repops. Have some requirement to be in class R basically (but anyone who wants could be in class C). Probably dangerous for server population if those guilds are really opposed to the PVP race thing though, unless the criterion is set appropriately.

Interesting, I wonder if anything will come of these considerations and discussions going on fairly widely across the server.

It wouldn't be as hard as he made it out. If you wanted to go Class C right now and get keyed up for VP it's pretty easy if you are smart and somewhat patient. Trakanon is hard to go after on Sim repops when you go after VP first due to competition and with VS being the Top priority outside of VP.

All a guild would have to do is be ready to kill FFA/Class C Trakanons on repops till they get 20 to 25 teeth. He drops 2 to 5 a kill so technically you could have 20 keys in 4 kills if you are lucky but I'd say he drops 3 on average so kill 8 Trakanons. Boom. VP capable for most the dragons in there as long as you have the proper resist gear and key the right people. Kinda surprised more guilds don't do that honestly.

The bonus to also killing those Trakanons of course is the Class specific BPs and other drops he has to gear your guild. SO even when you get those 20 to 25 keys. Keep Trakanon as the priority on repops. Technically you would never have to kill an actual competitive Trakanon to advance to VP.

[Juryiel]

It wouldn't be as hard as he made it out. If you wanted to go Class C right now and get keyed up for VP it's pretty easy if you are smart and somewhat patient. Trakanon is hard to go after on Sim repops when you go after VP first due to competition and with VS being the Top priority outside of VP.

All a guild would have to do is be ready to kill FFA/Class C Trakanons on repops till they get 20 to 25 teeth. He drops 2 to 5 a kill so technically you could have 20 keys in 4 kills if you are lucky but I'd say he drops 3 on average so kill 8 Trakanons. Boom. VP capable for most the dragons in there as long as you have the proper resist gear and key the right people. Kinda surprised more guilds don't do that honestly.

The bonus to also killing those Trakanons of course is the Class specific BPs and other drops he has to gear your guild. SO even when you get those 20 to 25 keys. Keep Trakanon as the priority on repops. Technically you would never have to kill an actual competitive Trakanon to advance to VP.

I absolutely agree that it is easy for larger class R guilds to go class C. I guess I don't see how killing unexpected trakanon sim repop would be easy for a smaller guild with class C ambitions. Maybe if sim-repops were known and such a guild could ahead of time have its force be ready etc, but otherwise I don't see it. And a non-sim repop trak will probably be gotten by TMO / IB. And it's not just trak, it's mobs in general. Yes, Taken and BDA can do well in class C, but my guess is Genocidal Tendencies would not have done well for quite a long time until they were leveled / geared more, even in the 2 hours it takes for you guys to do VP or other high priority targets during sim repops.

I also think the video illustrates clearly the class R class C differences. Someone said in that video "Guilds could move to class C and get 4-5 dragons a week!" as if that was some sort of perk, and my immediate thought was "Oh god, I have to kill 4-5 dragons a week if I go to class C? " Plenty happy with the amount we get now as class R even though by class C standards it's so little. Yes, I do really like raiding, especially killing mobs we haven't killed before with the guild I'm in, but farming 4-5 dragons of the same set of 15-20 a week seems way too much for me and I bet many class R.

[Lazie]

I absolutely agree that it is easy for larger class R guilds to go class C. I guess I don't see how killing unexpected trakanon sim repop would be easy for a smaller guild with class C ambitions. Maybe if sim-repops were known and such a guild could ahead of time have its force be ready etc, but otherwise I don't see it. And a non-sim repop trak will probably be gotten by TMO / IB. And it's not just trak, it's mobs in general. Yes, Taken and BDA can do well in class C, but my guess is Genocidal Tendencies would not have done well for quite a long time until they were leveled / geared more, even in the 2 hours it takes for you guys to do VP or other high priority targets during sim repops.

I also think the video illustrates clearly the class R class C differences. Someone said in that video "Guilds could move to class C and get 4-5 dragons a week!" as if that was some sort of perk, and my immediate thought was "Oh god, I have to kill 4-5 dragons a week if I go to class C? " Plenty happy with the amount we get now as class R even though by class C standards it's so little. Yes, I do really like raiding, especially killing mobs we haven't killed before with the guild I'm in, but farming 4-5 dragons of the same set of 15-20 a week seems way too much for me and I bet many class R.

All you need is one CotH mage and one anchor camped at Trak's ledge no matter how big your guild is. You are gonna have plenty of time to get your guild there and coth them down to kill that Class C Trakanon. You might have to be faster for the FFA ones though on repops.

[Juryiel]

All you need is one CotH mage and one anchor camped at Trak's ledge no matter how big your guild is. You are gonna have plenty of time to get your guild there and coth them down to kill that Class C Trakanon. You might have to be faster for the FFA ones though on repops.

I don't mean the race part, you need people to be available to play. Most smaller guilds don't have enough people available at all hours of the day even on batphone for the random repop. They only have enough people during their peak time, and only on some of the days of the week.

[Lazie]

I don't mean the race part, you need people to be available to play. Most smaller guilds don't have enough people available at all hours of the day even on batphone for the random repop. They only have enough people during their peak time, and only on some of the days of the week.

If you clear the juggs which you will have time to do and have the right potions for Trakanon. You can kill him with 15 to 20 people. Just gotta make sure you have the right classes for it. This is obviously a strategy for the guilds that aspire to kill in VP.

[Man0warr]

If Trakanon is FFA during a Sim repop, I guarantee a guild of 15-20 isn't going to beat a guild like Taken or BDA to engage - unless a more juicy target like VS or CT is also FFA.

[Juryiel]

If you clear the juggs which you will have time to do and have the right potions for Trakanon. You can kill him with 15 to 20 people. Just gotta make sure you have the right classes for it. This is obviously a strategy for the guilds that aspire to kill in VP.

I think you're making all sorts of assumptions of what an aspiring young class C guild can do. I'm talking about specifically the examples that came up in the video - GT and Dolj or whatever - as small guilds with class C ambitions, but slowed down by the class R rotation. I don't think those guilds can do what you claim, so those guilds would be either slowed down by the class R rotation or TMO/IB, regardless of the class they chose to be in.

[Lazie]

If Trakanon is FFA during a Sim repop, I guarantee a guild of 15-20 isn't going to beat a guild like Taken or BDA to engage - unless a more juicy target like VS or CT is also FFA.

Uhm... I said you only needed 15-20 to kill him. Which is true. I've never seen BDA or Taken try an engage with 15 to 20 so I doubt your claims on pulling it off until you do.

[Lazie]

I think you're making all sorts of assumptions of what an aspiring young class C guild can do. I'm talking about specifically the examples that came up in the video - GT and Dolj or whatever - as small guilds with class C ambitions, but slowed down by the class R rotation. I don't think those guilds can do what you claim, so those guilds would be either slowed down by the class R rotation or TMO/IB, regardless of the class they chose to be in.

No. I am not. If the leadership is sound. I know for a fact the leadership in Dolj was terrible.

[Juryiel]

Also I should say, many class R guilds already ally to kill their class R rotations including Trak, so I imagine even many of them would not fare well with 2 hours at a random time of day which, to TMO / IB may be an eternity, but a guild with a max raid force of 25 when they know ahead of time a mob will pop is probably not going to happen. So again, I think you assume all guilds have forces available at all times of day. That is just not true for many guilds.

[Lazie]

Also I should say, many class R guilds already ally to kill their class R rotations including Trak, so I imagine even many of them would not fare well with 2 hours at a random time of day which, to TMO / IB may be an eternity, but a guild with a max raid force of 25 when they know ahead of time a mob will pop is probably not going to happen. So again, I think you assume all guilds have forces available at all times of day. That is just not true for many guilds.

Again. It's only because of inexperience in that area that they struggle. You could put one good raid leader that has experience in any of the smaller guilds and pull it off. It's all about the desire of the guilds. Again I said this would only work IF they were aspiring to be competitive in VP. Which isn't your typical Class R guild.

[Man0warr]

Also, no Class R guild aspires to be Class C or they already would be. They LIKE the rotation and how it works (for the most part).

I did hardcore, cutthroat raiding for a long long time. Most want nothing more than what we do now - a couple planar clears a week at predictable times, and 1 to 3 big targets a week that we can plan around.

If people in the guild want more, then they end up RMTing their Trak keys and go spend a couple months in TMO/IB until the next ban wave.

But BDA at least is pretty upfront to applicants on what to expect with our raiding.

Totally different mindset/play style. If GMs do as some suggested in that stream last night and force Class R guilds to Class C, you will literally kill guilds and hurt the server population.

[Lazie]

Also, no Class R guild aspires to be Class C or they already would be. They LIKE the rotation and how it works (for the most part).

I did hardcore, cutthroat raiding for a long long time. Most want nothing more than what we do now - a couple planar clears a week at predictable times, and 1 to 3 big targets a week that we can plan around.

If people in the guild want more, then they end up RMTing their Trak keys and go spend a couple months in TMO/IB until the next ban wave.

But BDA at least is pretty upfront to applicants on what to expect with our raiding.

Totally different mindset/play style. If GMs do as some suggested in that stream last night and force Class R guilds to Class C, you will literally kill guilds and hurt the server population.

Yeah. I was just addressing what Derubel said. Guilds aspiring to compete in VP and Class C new to the server etc. It isn't as hard as he made it sound if they really are aspiring to play that hard.

[Juryiel]

Again. It's only because of inexperience in that area that they struggle. You could put one good raid leader that has experience in any of the smaller guilds and pull it off. It's all about the desire of the guilds. Again I said this would only work IF they were aspiring to be competitive in VP. Which isn't your typical Class R guild.

Inexperience in what area? If you send out a batphone and 10 people log on because its your off peak time you won't be getting trak. Even if you get 15, if they are not all level 60 with decent gear / dps you probably won't be getting trak. This is a common scenario in class R.

[Man0warr]

Uhm... I said you only needed 15-20 to kill him. Which is true. I've never seen BDA or Taken try an engage with 15 to 20 so I doubt your claims on pulling it off until you do.

Eh? We killed him with like 25 in early AM last week and it was a breeze, and that was with some non-essential classes like necros and paladins.

We could easily kill Trak with 18 of the correct classes if we had no pressure and could clear all the juggs - do you think being in Class C somehow makes you a better player? Having some Crown of Riles doesn't change much from what we have available.

[Juryiel]

Yeah. I was just addressing what Derubel said. Guilds aspiring to compete in VP and Class C new to the server etc. It isn't as hard as he made it sound if they really are aspiring to play that hard.

The VP specific part makes sense, but the claim was that even outside VP guilds could move to class C for other targets. Obviously a guild ready to compete in VP would be able to do as you say with trak.

[Lazie]

Eh? We killed him with like 25 in early AM last week and it was a breeze, and that was with some non-essential classes like necros and paladins.

We could easily kill Trak with 18 of the correct classes if we had no pressure and could clear all the juggs - do you think being in Class C somehow makes you a better player? Having some Crown of Riles doesn't change much from what we have available.

I meant with the juggs of course. Because a competitive guild there wouldn't give you time to clear them. No I know I'm a better player if I was naked without gear than most.

[Man0warr]

Even with Juggs up we'd be fine - as long as you are all 60 and hug the wall with Lev you can bypass them all except maybe 1, then you just have an enchanter Dictate.

We weren't talking about competing with TMO/IB in this scenario though, as we were discussing FFA Trak during a Sim repop when you guys would be in VP.

If it wasn't a sim repop, and it was just a plain old FFA Trak, TMO/IB would win 95% of the time just from your multitude of mages.

[Lazie]

Even with Juggs up we'd be fine - as long as you are all 60 and hug the wall with Lev you can bypass them all except maybe 1, then you just have an enchanter Dictate.

We weren't talking about competing with TMO/IB in this scenario though, as we were discussing FFA Trak during a Sim repop when you guys would be in VP.

If it wasn't a sim repop, and it was just a plain old FFA Trak, TMO/IB would win 95% of the time just from your multitude of mages.

False. You would have Protector and 2 juggs with that method.

[Lazie]

And there is a better use for that chanter than having it just dictate one mob.

[Detoxx]

Even with Juggs up we'd be fine - as long as you are all 60 and hug the wall with Lev you can bypass them all except maybe 1, then you just have an enchanter Dictate.

We weren't talking about competing with TMO/IB in this scenario though, as we were discussing FFA Trak during a Sim repop when you guys would be in VP.

If it wasn't a sim repop, and it was just a plain old FFA Trak, TMO/IB would win 95% of the time just from your multitude of mages.

Hate to break it to you, but there is no way any class R guild would be able to beat TMO/IB on a competitive trak engage. At least for a while. Weve engaged and killed trak with 9 people while cothing down the rest and training away the juggs.

This is much different that calmly pulling out your juggs one at a time, no pressure, no risk. Just take your time and kill the 2 juggs and protector. This isnt meant to be a slight or knock, its just reality.

[nicemace]

Hate to break it to you, but there is no way any class R guild would be able to beat TMO/IB on a competitive trak engage. At least for a while. Weve engaged and killed trak with 9 people while cothing down the rest and training away the juggs.

This is much different that calmly pulling out your juggs one at a time, no pressure, no risk. Just take your time and kill the 2 juggs and protector. This isnt meant to be a slight or knock, its just reality.

you say that like you think it requires some kind of skill or that its hard to do.

the reality is that your 'skill' is in your ability to recruit people so you have an available force "immediately" on pop or whatever and that majority of your guild is well geared through the benefit of you guys having a nice lead so doing stuff like this is trivial.

dont delude yourself into thinking youre executing some kind of crazy unheard of strats that no one else is doing.


im not ragging on what ya do though dude, you guys see success and thats all the matters.

[Lazie]

you say that like you think it requires some kind of skill or that its hard to do.

the reality is that your 'skill' is in your ability to recruit people so you have an available force "immediately" on pop or whatever and that majority of your guild is well geared through the benefit of you guys having a nice lead so doing stuff like this is trivial.

dont delude yourself into thinking youre executing some kind of crazy unheard of strats that no one else is doing.


im not ragging on what ya do though dude, you guys see success and thats all the matters.

:rolleyes: Yeah try it with just green people you recruit to bolster numbers. See how that works.

[skipdog]

you say that like you think it requires some kind of skill or that its hard to do.

the reality is that your 'skill' is in your ability to recruit people so you have an available force "immediately" on pop or whatever and that majority of your guild is well geared through the benefit of you guys having a nice lead so doing stuff like this is trivial.

dont delude yourself into thinking youre executing some kind of crazy unheard of strats that no one else is doing.


im not ragging on what ya do though dude, you guys see success and thats all the matters.

I'm sorry but the idea that none of the class R guilds can mobilize a force with a batphone is just ridiculous.

The idea that TMO/IB dominate because of numbers is seriously laughable. Do you guys not see how many class R guilds have huge amounts of people during earthquakes even at odd hours? Almost all of the class R guilds have batphones and huge rosters too.

He's right though. No class R guilds right now could beat TMO/IB in an actual race to Trak and it has nothing to do with numbers - it is because they are very practiced and can execute very fast and clean. If you don't see that, you are being delusional and should probably stop believing everything your leadership tells you.

[Lazie]

blue is so shit looool people are brainwashed into misery of lvling on this clusterfuck just to be a warm body for 3 years to get 1 trak bp

I leveled one character from 0 to 60 and had a Robe of the Azure sky, Cloak of Peity, Dragon Hero Bracer, Staff of Null, Bo Staff of Trorsmang, Shield of Rainbow Hues, Skullcrusher of Kragg, and various other sky loots in under a year of raiding. Your idea of what a person can earn in a raiding guild is flawed. I mean if you put in the time you get rewarded.

[Lazie]

I leveled one character from 0 to 60 and had a Robe of the Azure sky, Cloak of Peity, Dragon Hero Bracer, Staff of Null, Bo Staff of Trorsmang, Shield of Rainbow Hues, Skullcrusher of Kragg, and various other sky loots in under a year of raiding. Your idea of what a person can earn in a raiding guild is flawed. I mean if you put in the time you get rewarded.

I also forgot to mention the various spells and things my alt got. I mean...honestly. Only item I really had to buy for my character was a Fungi. The rest of it I got raiding/camping and he pretty much has all he needs for the start of Velious. A few more items wouldn't hurt but aren't needed.

[arsenalpow]

I leveled one character from 0 to 60 and had a Robe of the Azure sky, Cloak of Peity, Dragon Hero Bracer, Staff of Null, Bo Staff of Trorsmang, Shield of Rainbow Hues, Skullcrusher of Kragg, and various other sky loots in under a year of raiding. Your idea of what a person can earn in a raiding guild is flawed. I mean if you put in the time you get rewarded.

dat path of least resistance

[Reguiy]

I leveled one character from 0 to 60 and had a Robe of the Azure sky, Cloak of Peity, Dragon Hero Bracer, Staff of Null, Bo Staff of Trorsmang, Shield of Rainbow Hues, Skullcrusher of Kragg, and various other sky loots in under a year of raiding. Your idea of what a person can earn in a raiding guild is flawed. I mean if you put in the time you get rewarded.


Step 1: Set up a mini fridge and microwave within arms reach of your computer.
Step 2: Take a trip to Costco and buy an many hotpockets as possible (Note: only do this once and buy as many hotpockets as possible as multiple trips will result lost time you could be tracking.
Step 3: Join TMO or IB
Step 4: Forfeit any sort of social life, sleep schedule and/or hobbies you may have and spend every waking hour you're not at work sitting at your computer and tracking/raiding/sucking guild leader's epeens.
Step 5: Fulfill your life goal of obtaining a Crown of Rile on everquest emulated server

[Lazie]

dat path of least resistance


Least resistance ? You mean the one where I competed with other guilds for the mobs ?So the path I should have chosen is the one where your guild officers refuse to compete and never see the mobs period ?

Or in other words the path of self-inflicted resistance.

[Lazie]

Step 1: Set up a mini fridge and microwave within arms reach of your computer.
Step 2: Take a trip to Costco and buy an many hotpockets as possible (Note: only do this once and buy as many hotpockets as possible as multiple trips will result lost time you could be tracking.
Step 3: Join TMO or IB
Step 4: Forfeit any sort of social life, sleep schedule and/or hobbies you may have and spend every waking hour you're not at work sitting at your computer and tracking/raiding/sucking guild leader's epeens.
Step 5: Fulfill your life goal of obtaining a Crown of Rile on everquest emulated server

It's rather easier than all that. Honestly the windows are 16 hours guys. Mobs rarely go their full windows. Do the math.

[Cecily]

Step 1: Set up a mini fridge and microwave within arms reach of your computer.
Step 2: Take a trip to Costco and buy an many hotpockets as possible (Note: only do this once and buy as many hotpockets as possible as multiple trips will result lost time you could be tracking.
Step 3: Join TMO or IB
Step 4: Forfeit any sort of social life, sleep schedule and/or hobbies you may have and spend every waking hour you're not at work sitting at your computer and tracking/raiding/sucking guild leader's epeens.
Step 5: Fulfill your life goal of obtaining a Crown of Rile on everquest emulated server

No. That looks about right.

[nicemace]

I'm sorry but the idea that none of the class R guilds can mobilize a force with a batphone is just ridiculous.

The idea that TMO/IB dominate because of numbers is seriously laughable. Do you guys not see how many class R guilds have huge amounts of people during earthquakes even at odd hours? Almost all of the class R guilds have batphones and huge rosters too.

He's right though. No class R guilds right now could beat TMO/IB in an actual race to Trak and it has nothing to do with numbers - it is because they are very practiced and can execute very fast and clean. If you don't see that, you are being delusional and should probably stop believing everything your leadership tells you.

thats not what i was saying. sure if you wanna call getting a force on at any time in a timely manner, skill.... well then go ahead, but ill let you in on a little secret. its not skill. its simply a bunch of people who are able to structure their lives to allow for them to do so, im not saying this is a bad thing, its just a fact that some people cant do that kind of shit anymore, there isnt anything difficult about it.

let me put it this way. if you had 2 teams with the exact same classes, the exact same numbers, the exact same levels and the exact same gear and the exact same coth setup... youre trying to say that TMO/IB would beat out the other guilds 9 times out of 10? thats laughable lol. the only difference is gear and their ability to mobilize. of course they are gonna win all the times because they have a straight up advantage. im not talking zerg numbers, im talking just straight up getting /enough/ numbers there to get started. again. if you wanna call this skill, then yeah sure ill give you that they can organise well, but any man and his dog can do it provided they have the time and the resources.

and ps im not part of a competing guild. but was part of DA back in the DA/IB days so im well versed in all the raiding bullshit.

[Servellious]

thats not what i was saying. sure if you wanna call getting a force on at any time in a timely manner, skill.... well then go ahead, but ill let you in on a little secret. its not skill. its simply a bunch of people who are able to structure their lives to allow for them to do so, im not saying this is a bad thing, its just a fact that some people cant do that kind of shit anymore, there isnt anything difficult about it.

let me put it this way. if you had 2 teams with the exact same classes, the exact same numbers, the exact same levels and the exact same gear and the exact same coth setup... youre trying to say that TMO/IB would beat out the other guilds 9 times out of 10? thats laughable lol. the only difference is gear and their ability to mobilize. of course they are gonna win all the times because they have a straight up advantage. im not talking zerg numbers, im talking just straight up getting /enough/ numbers there to get started. again. if you wanna call this skill, then yeah sure ill give you that they can organise well, but any man and his dog can do it provided they have the time and the resources.

and ps im not part of a competing guild. but was part of DA back in the DA/IB days so im well versed in all the raiding bullshit.

No TMO or ib would win 10/10 minus Coth ducking like they have been. Keep making excuses it's what people who can't win do. But I understand society is all about everyone winning these days anyway. Winners find a way losers make excuses

[Cecily]

It's having the gear to do it. I don't mean VP stuff. I mean sky, JC, 1 group stuff.
It's having the people to do it. Raids operate on a 24/7 basis here and that's super hard to manage.
It's having the knowledge of how to do it. Strats that are basic raiding now were pioneered and perfected for P99's raiding environment and changed on the fly as mechanics and rules changed.
And finally, it's doing it. This has been what we now refer to as class R's biggest hang up.

So I guess raiding skill, if you wanna call it that, is preparation, understanding, and execution. Mainly due to experience, the raiding guilds are better at all of these things, but more casual guild have had alot of time to get the big one done, preparation, since the P99 timeline is so borked.

I do think it's a shame that not more guilds are willing to participate in class C, but FFA provides a unique opportunity for smaller guilds to show up the people who are apparently pros at this raid thing here and there. It makes me so happy every time Taken or BDA steals a mob from class C.

[Raev]

youre trying to say that TMO/IB would beat out the other guilds 9 times out of 10? thats laughable lol.

If the target is an outdoor dragon, then no. If its a more complicated encounter, then I would say 10/10 except for the fact that after 5-6 tries the R guild would start figuring some stuff out.

I don't think TMO/IB really have vastly superior players, but they have a lot more experience.

[Detoxx]

If the target is an outdoor dragon, then no. If its a more complicated encounter, then I would say 10/10 except for the fact that after 5-6 tries the R guild would start figuring some stuff out.

I don't think TMO/IB really have vastly superior players, but they have a lot more experience.

I was simply talking about trakanon. Hes an easy dragon, and any class r guild can kill him, sure. But throw in snap decisions, no time to clear anything, engaging with less than 10 people more often than not and you got yourself a whole different ballgame.

[nicemace]

my mistake then. i thought the majority of raiders were more than neanderthals lol. i mostly agree with what cecily said. what you guys do works, im not saying you shouldnt be able to do with it. but strutting around saying it like youre these exceptional players with mad skillz that no one else holds is utterly false. you guys succeed cause youre in the right environment to succeed in, anyone can do that.

[Alarti0001]

Class r wants vp merbs now.. Shouldn't it be class r wants to move to class c... wasn't that the incentive of making VP class c only?

Lets make a TMOClassR guild... problem solved.

[Cecily]

I really would like to do what dolojarnuganimar was trying do in class R, but like not suck at it.

[Juevento]

Lets make a TMOClassR guild... problem solved.

Umm Asgard fills that role nicely.

[toolshed]

Your incessant bitching and crying 10 months ago killed this server and any semblance of classic eq that was left. You truthfully don't deserve what you get now, and definitely don't deserve free shots in vp.

haha wow man take this game pretty seriously huh?

[Cecily]

my mistake then. i thought the majority of raiders were more than neanderthals lol. i mostly agree with what cecily said. what you guys do works, im not saying you shouldnt be able to do with it. but strutting around saying it like youre these exceptional players with mad skillz that no one else holds is utterly false. you guys succeed cause youre in the right environment to succeed in, anyone can do that.

Yes and no. I honestly think the raiding guilds have a higher percentage of extremely competent players. Do I honestly think that we're better than them b/c of what we do? Absolutely not. But I'll espouse that view every chance I can b/c it makes them mad. And making BDA and Taken leaders mad is a worthy cause since they hate us so much.

[Alarti0001]

Umm Asgard fills that role nicely.

Not even close. Goodbye rotation!

[Duckwalk]

http://http://www.baka-raptor.com/Plagiarism/frink.jpg

No you can't play with it, you won't enjoy it on as many levels as I do.

Monopolization of/preventing access to a 15 year old game because people don't want to play it the same way you are is dumb.

[Visual]

fly like an eagle