Raid scene: Variance Socking

[texwilly]

Soooo, I have been watching the discussions on the "raid" scene issues ever since the variance increase. The staff thought that if they increased variance, it would help deter socking. On the contrary, it made the socking worse in the end run.

I'm part of a high end Class C guild and really don't play much because I'm requested to sock my character fully buffed at different locations throughout most of the week. What this increased variance has in effect done to my gaming experience is that it has relegated my character to being logged out unless a mob has been bat-phoned. Joining a raid guild has in effect, reduced my ability to play my character. So, now i reroll a second main to be able to compete with other FFA mob spawns when multiple things are in window. I'm foreseeing the future here that I will need a 3rd main soon for Velious spawns vs. Kunark spawns vs. other FFA repops. And finally, I will need a 4th main to just play the game with friends.

My experience raiding Velious/PoP/GoD/DoN/OOW on live with Altruistic Valorians on Morell-Thule/Erollissi Marr, was that we had a rotation with the other top guilds on the server. We were fairly competitive at different times, the leading guild on the server for different stints (elite for our server, if you will).

This leads me to what I believe broke this server's ability to maintain the "classic" raid experience I was accustomed to. We have a server reminiscent of the days when i played live, but stuck in the same spot for too long (no Velious). I think that is the obvious issue that most of us agree on, lack of content to spread out in. Again, server staff thought to keep things competitive, we should increase variance to get people to go play their characters and only mobilize when a dragon spawns. All of the solution discussions seem to have lead to a consensus that guilds want a shorter variance so that we don't have to sock for so many hours. The intention of the increased variance was to eliminate socking, not elongate it.

TL:DR. Has much thought been given to, DARE I SAY, increasing the variance significantly to get people to stop camping out at the zonelines fully buffed? Derubael has recently and CLEARLY stated that he does not approve of guilds having groups prepped outside of raid target zones ready to be COTHed. Significant additions to the variance (+- 72hrs or more) would make it much more difficult for raid guilds to poopsock every single spawning dragon.

On live, I clearly remember knowing much less about when mobs would be repopping as we track carefully here. I never "socked" a mob on live in about 3 years of solid raiding (again, fairly competitive), and had to look up the term "poopsock" when i began P99 a couple of years ago. I have followed most of the posts and have not seen this option fleshed out by CSR or guild leaders very clearly.

To start the conversation, I would like to highlight a few benefits to this idea.

1. Should drastically reduce socking.
2. Should maintain competition.
3. Should allow smaller guilds to grow into competitive raiders naturally (IE: they could focus target mobs, sacrificing many other targets for key progression pieces (think Zlandicar/Klandicar)).
4. FTE races would be significantly reduced. Stalling tactics would be difficult while waiting for enough guild members to get to the zone and buff/med. (Remember the days when you would be prepping for a dragon, only pulling it when you thought your team was ready, pushing the limits to beat your opposing guild? This is good competition).
5. Increased tracking times (a big negative, but it was a necessary evil on Live as i remember it).

I propose this independently, without the voice of any guild, strictly from my personal detest of the current raiding environment. I am always a devil's advocate and asked the question to myself "Maybe the GM's just didn't go far enough with the idea?". This FTE-race sock-fest is horrible.

[Clark]

all increasing variance does is increase the amount of time people track and poop sock. you cannot deter this behavior with time added.


I'd disagree, at least it wouldn't be as heavy a sock.

[texwilly]

I hear your argument, but as the other big "Stop the Socking" post has eluded to in the last few minutes, a discussion has turned into every mob being on a random repop cycle. A huge variance, in effect, does just that. I do not think we as a guild would sock or try to sock all 6 mobs in window. We simply do not have enough characters to do it.

Also, I'm looking for constructive feedback if we can. I really don't post much and felt confident enough in this idea that it should be evaluated.

Finally, this idea is super against the grain and moral code of most raiders because we all hate socking and we think variance is what fucked us in the first place.

[Daldaen]

1. Yes it will reduce some socking. People still will sock, and camp out though. They did back when variance was 96 hours.
2. No. It will keep Class C competing. All Class R will drop out entirely.
3. Nope. See 2.
4. Nope. See 1. They will continue to track entire windows with FTEers and trackers in zone.
5. Yep, see 4.

Increasing Variance is just a way that rewards neckbeards, alienates most/all of Class R and reverts to the broken system we had a year ago.

But I'm guessing you know this? You joined in 2011. You know what it was like with really long variance.

[texwilly]

I do Dald, but this FTE race/no way for class R to move up/socking has become extreme even in this servers era. These were unforeseen consequences. I honestly preferred the 96 hour variance. We can no longer attempt to make this a "classic raiding experience", we've been in Kunark for too long.

I should address your comments:

If everything is in window simlutaneously, it is much more difficult to sock everything, I think smaller guilds have a better fighting chance. Further, I would recommend simulated repops remain with bag limits.

[jpetrick]

You're an idiot if you think more variance helps smaller guilds. Less variance helps smaller guilds. If I have 24 people active in primetime and the variance is 3 fucking days. How is my guild getting a mob? Now if the variance is 1 hour and my guild can sit and be ready for a mob how much of a chance do I have at a mob?

[texwilly]

Whoa whoa whoa. I want an increased variance because i fucking hate the raid environment. I have no resources. I have 1 level 60 and 1 level 36. Now that we are through with the pleasantries, let's assume I am a random guy unaffiliated with a guild (probably the closest representation I have).

You and jpetrick have the same ill-fated thoughts about this being a death sentence to smaller guilds. Now my logic may be flawed because there arn't enough raid target without Velious in the picture, but I believe that the 15ish "raid-merbs" being in window simultaneously would provide for more opportunities for smaller guilds to jump into the action.

The reality is, unless a class R guild wants to sell their souls, they will never jump to Class C. PERIOD. They cannot progress in this environment. If you think that 24 guys in "primetime" will allow you to compete directly with IB and TMO, your thinking is flawed. My idea is that if we spread everyone out again, you could focus on certain targets and beat the wolves. Maybe IB and TMO have too many resources already for this to be effective in the Kunark era?

[Velerin]

I think everyone skipped over one of the most important parts of the OPs post.



I'm part of a high end Class C guild and really don't play much because I'm requested to sock my character fully buffed at different locations throughout most of the week. What this increased variance has in effect done to my gaming experience is that it has relegated my character to being logged out unless a mob has been bat-phoned. Joining a raid guild has in effect, reduced my ability to play my character. So, now i reroll a second main to be able to compete with other FFA mob spawns when multiple things are in window. I'm foreseeing the future here that I will need a 3rd main soon for Velious spawns vs. Kunark spawns vs. other FFA repops. And finally, I will need a 4th main to just play the game with friends.



He is not even having fun being able to play his main because of the "competition" on this server. I bet their are lots of class C people like him that want to play their main, run around, have fun (enjoy playing a game!) but feel forced to do this to compete.

I just think its so funny that a "hardcore" raider back in 1999 would be considered a "casual" here (running around doing stuff on his main, figuring out quests, showing off his armor to newbies, hears about a dragon pop and figures out a way to get to the spawn as soon as he can)
Hardcore here is parking your mains and not even being able to play them...

[texwilly]

EXACTLY.

[Magnar]

I think everyone skipped over one of the most important parts of the OPs post.



He is not even having fun being able to play his main because of the "competition" on this server. I bet their are lots of class C people like him that want to play their main, run around, have fun (enjoy playing a game!) but feel forced to do this to compete.

I just think its so funny that a "hardcore" raider back in 1999 would be considered a "casual" here (running around doing stuff on his main, figuring out quests, showing off his armor to newbies, hears about a dragon pop and figures out a way to get to the spawn as soon as he can)
Hardcore here is parking your mains and not even being able to play them...

^^This. So totally this. Raiding on P99 isn't real EverQuest, and anyone who thinks it is needs their head examined, and needs to take a few clicks on the Wayback links to see what real raiding was like.

Lets use some logic here for a second...what in the hell is the point of constantly camping all of these bosses, arguing with each other, and spending so much time and aggravation fighting with each other if your characters are logged out the entire time you have them with the exception of logging in to kill a boss? Just to keep the other guy from doing the same thing? That's stupid, and you all know it.

[Lazie]

you want more variance because you are in TMO or IB and you have the luxury of resources that the smaller guilds do not have and thus actually reduce the amount of competitors for pixels.

When faced with actual competition, TMO absorbs guilds to gain these resources.

Resources being players who can log in around the clock with multiple toons and be available to track targets for long durations.

longer variance = bigger guilds have the advantage over smaller guilds with less resources

I am in TMO and said reduce the variance. Eventually you will have to stop blaming us.

[texwilly]

I used to think raiding was to get elite gear to go back and attempt difficult encounters with friends. The endless cycle of raiding to raid better dies when you have no more progression. I will probably fall back into the shadows and watch from the sidelines, hoping some savant will discover the "correct" solution for the server.

A new blue server (green maybe?) on a correct timeline would be the best thing P99 staff could ever do. Why they resist this idea is beyond me (resources?).

[Magnar]

I used to think raiding was to get elite gear to go back and attempt difficult encounters with friends. The endless cycle of raiding to raid better dies when you have no more progression. I will probably fall back into the shadows and watch from the sidelines, hoping some savant will discover the "correct" solution for the server.

A new blue server (green maybe?) on a correct timeline would be the best thing P99 staff could ever do. Why they resist this idea is beyond me (resources?).

Another server would just be ruined by the same raid mentality as here.

[texwilly]

Classic timelines and lack of alternate characters drastically would effect the raid scene. It could stall out at the same phase here if we wait too long on Velious, but 1.5 + years before velious would be launched should provide enough time to finalize the development of the code and tested on the existing blue and red servers. This is worthless discussion, though, in my honest opinion.

[Velerin]

I used to think raiding was to get elite gear to go back and attempt difficult encounters with friends. The endless cycle of raiding to raid better dies when you have no more progression. I will probably fall back into the shadows and watch from the sidelines, hoping some savant will discover the "correct" solution for the server.

A new blue server (green maybe?) on a correct timeline would be the best thing P99 staff could ever do. Why they resist this idea is beyond me (resources?).

Just another filthy casual that can't compete. /sarcasm

As much as the extended timeline of the server is the problem, I really think its the sheer amount of accounts (when account buying/selling was legal) that this extended timeline caused. When "competition" requires having people parked at each raid encounter. There's no way for an up and coming guild of new p99ers to compete with established groups of alt armies.

[baalzy]

Remove variance entirely.

PvP (no level limit) gets enabled automatically for all flagged guilds that are in-zone or an adjacent zone (easy enough to flag a raider/non raider guild) 30 minutes before the mob spawns. Whichever guild manages to engage and kill the mob while the other guilds are attacking them is the winner.

Unflagged guilds / untagged characters get hefty account suspensions / permabans for repeat offenders if they interact with the raid encounter or provide support to a PvP flagged character.

[baalzy]

Alternatively, for the 'no pvp ever' crowd. Auto-port any raid guild tagged character (logged in or not) that is within 3 zonelines of a raid encounter to random port rings/spires on mob pop (PoH would just kick them out of the zone) and let the guild with the most successful mobilization squad win.

Ban interference from untagged/flagged people.

[texwilly]

Anyone else feel a ridiculous sense of hopelessness for this raid scene? I mean i am already regretting posting this because so many conversations have already taken place. The community bitches and whines no matter what and the end result is always new levels of debauchery by neckbeards. I agree that the multiple accounts is the culprit in this day and age.

I don't think this is fixable anymore.

[Sampten]

If the server population is too large to support the limited raid content that is classic, Kunark, and you could argue that you could throw Velious in there, then you're left with 2 options:

Option 1: All guilds (C+R) develop a "up next" list and you follow that to the T. If It's XXX guild's week for Inny, then everybody else backs off. This somewhat becomes problematic because of the lengthy respawns, but it at least stays "classic". Will it please "C" guilds? No. Will it please "R" guilds? Maybe...who knows. I imagine they still are left with the decision of whether or not to jump to "C" status or stick with what they're regulated to raid based on the "C/R" raiding that's currently in place.

Option 2: You say "screw classic" and instance specific Raid zones. VP becomes instanced. Hate and Fear become instanced. You'd probably want to instance ToV and you could make the argument of instancing Kael due to Vindy/Statue/Idol/AoW being "hot targets". You'd then also need to instance ST as once there's enough keys, that'll be perma-down.

If you really look back at EQ, the raid content took off at PoP. There was so much content that it could support many guilds raiding. Your "R" guilds were way behind the "C" guilds, and while the "C" guilds focused on PoP (and SSRA/VT), the R guilds were able to really hammer home Kunark, Velious and Luclin. By the time the "C" guilds hit the Elementals, the "R" guilds were starting to work their into PoP.

Really, what a lot of this drama boils down to is that there are too many raiders for the content, and Velious won't actually fix that. While "R" guilds may find Vindy up regularly (8hour respawn), KT, Statue/Idol/AOW will be perma-down, as will TOV and NTOV. The mobs that drop ST keys will be also perma-socked because guilds are going to need to get ST keys.

[Velerin]

Yeah, rule changes can't fix mentalities. A new server with better timelines and no account sharing/trading would be the best bet but that would essentially kill the current server which would cause mass neckbeard suicides, followed by bad p99 press, followed by neckbeard moms worldwide suing Rogean and co.

[texwilly]

This feels constructive and in agreement with most if not all players...but is this something Derubael, Sirken, Rogean, and Nilbog would even consider? I havn't followed those direct discussions much because it always seemed untouchable given the vibes senior staff have made.

I would think it would be a breath of fresh air for staff members to not be dealing with as much raid-whining for a year or so until the "green" server catches up.

[kaev]

Another server would just be ruined by the same raid mentality as here.

It takes time to achieve the level of ruin we have now. I don't think a "classic" timeline would allow for quite as much ruin. (But let us not forget the cockblocking that shat up some of the live servers back in the day. P99 did not invent the use of the word "competition" as a synonym for "do everything legal plus anything and everything else you think you might be able to get away with to shit all over your neighbors, PvE my ass!" mentality.)

There is a higher density of, hrrm, let's call them "extremists", that's not too pejorative? in our community than there was on live. There is also a lot better detailed knowledge about game mechanics and content than there was on live. I have no doubt that free accounts plus this extensive knowledge would be as heavily exploited by said extremists on a new server as they have been to date, but even so they wouldn't have the time (and the period of legal account trading) to take things to the level they're at now. In particular, limiting the Kunark to Velious delay to only the historical 9 months would probably have a pretty large effect.



Still, it's worth noting that on many/most live servers Lower Guk was paved with people camping single spawns for the last 2-3 months before Kunark dropped. The first year of content might should be compressed into a six-month span if the goal is to avoid the "ruin" that is the current p99 raid environment. Hell, given the way people play here, 6 months classic, then 6 months Kunark, then 12 months of Velious, and then introduce custom high-end raid content after that, if you want to achieve a substantial reduction in the friction between the extremists and the casuals.

[falkun]

Tex, most of the people arguing with you (metallikus, arsenalpow, erati, daldaen, myself) came to these conclusions a while ago. You must be incredibly new to TMO/the raid scene, your suggestions and logic are from your join date, 2011.

[texwilly]

No, I've been here. I think that the current attempts at fixing this are hopeless due to the people having the conversations. We are employing the old "history knows best" policy on why variance is bad. I'm attempting to think outside of the popular thought process due to the evolution of the server and raid situation that exists NOW, not 2 years ago when variance was changed last.

Make your assumptions about what guild I am from or how new to raiding i am, it's completely irrelevant to attack the person, better to attack their ideas. I have yet to hear compelling argument against increased variance besides the number of existing raiding alternates available to guilds (a valid contest).

I am not convinced of the effect on "class R" guilds and increased variance. They cry that it hurts them, but in the extreme +-XX hour variance, it could in fact benefit them if TMO and IB are not socked at every upcoming spawn as they are now.

A final thought. Pretty much every change to date, made by the same people arguing over how to fix it this time, has resulted in extraordinary manipulation of rules and debauchery. If this were a government or big business, they would be fired and fresh people and ideas would be brought in. I do not want to be one of those people, but I find it interesting that server GM's thought long and hard about increasing variance the first time and perhaps were on the right track, they just weren't quite ready at that evolution of the server.

PS, thanks falkun for your Bard kiting guide. Made my twink much easier to get off the ground on the learning curve.

[jpetrick]

You and jpetrick have the same ill-fated thoughts about this being a death sentence to smaller guilds. Now my logic may be flawed because there arn't enough raid target without Velious in the picture, but I believe that the 15ish "raid-merbs" being in window simultaneously would provide for more opportunities for smaller guilds to jump into the action.


Uhh just because the mobs have overlapping windows doesn't mean they all will spawn at the same time. Class C guilds have more than enough players and characters to cover tracking all the spawns (lets not forgot 6 of those spawns are in the same damn zone). Lets say my 24 are sitting in for VS. A window with 1 hour variance would give us the same shot as any other guild there assuming each guild is employing the same tactics. Your logic is completely fucked.

[texwilly]

Let's say 10 mobs are in window. You think IB/TMO have 20 dedicated neckbeards to cover FTE and tracking? Sometimes we have to rustle up folks for 3 spawns...I'm presuming that even the trackers would rotate between accounts, this provides opportunities for other guilds, no?

You are extreme on one side, i guess I am extreme on the other? Both are based on assumptions.

[jpetrick]

How about the thing where no one wants to sit around for hours on end. I'm sure class c doesn't like their whole Saturday/Sunday being used to sit on 16 hour windows. Why the fuck can't we have 1 or 2 hour windows so people can do other things with their free time? I have never once seen a compelling reason from a GM answering this question. FFA is already a shitshow with 16 hour windows. Sure shorter windows will make that worse. Guess what though?! You don't have to contest FFA mobs if you don't want to.

[Rivthis]

I said it somewhere else,

Randomize the repop so it isnt locked at 1 week or whatever it is now.


A raid mob might spawn 3 times in 1 week or not once in 2 weeks.

Back when I raided on live we actually sent out trackers to find out what was before a raid would start, or do a bat phone if we accidentally found something up and a raid wasn't planned.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I said it somewhere else,

Randomize the repop so it isnt locked at 1 week or whatever it is now.


A raid mob might spawn 3 times in 1 week or not once in 2 weeks.

Back when I raided on live we actually sent out trackers to find out what was before a raid would start, or do a bat phone if we accidentally found something up and a raid wasn't planned.

I've always supported the completely random timers like this . Without the c r ffa system however r would never see another mob like this unless they tracked non stop and prepped for only 1 or 2 targets at a time. I guarantee class c would simply maintain ranger tracking at important targets with as much uptime as possible. Might even keep an fte person logged at pd just due to the importance of it. We already have permanent vp toons.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Complete removal of variance would cause a zerg fte fuckfest worse than we have seen even on low window vs pre extended Windows, but it would be the option most friendly to casual and hard core raider alike. Just have the mob spawn with someone targeted like it used to be and play fte lottery .

[baalzy]

Complete removal of variance would cause a zerg fte fuckfest worse than we have seen even on low window vs pre extended Windows, but it would be the option most friendly to casual and hard core raider alike. Just have the mob spawn with someone targeted like it used to be and play fte lottery .

Certainly would be less consuming on each individuals time. Guilds would know when to stay the hell out of Hate if they don't want to be accidentally trained and arent interested / capable of doing Inny. For example.

I still like the idea of setting everyone in random zones. Or even just insta-poofing everyone in zone (including anyone who happens to be logged) to the succor point and then watching the resulting trainwreck to see who can get FTE without then dumping a train on themselves / someone else and eating a raid suspension.

[Lazie]

Complete removal of variance would cause a zerg fte fuckfest worse than we have seen even on low window vs pre extended Windows, but it would be the option most friendly to casual and hard core raider alike. Just have the mob spawn with someone targeted like it used to be and play fte lottery .

You're wrong. I love you, but there are rules that would stop this...2 tracker rule who can't fte etc. All you need at that point is "IF guild has more than 3 players at spawn in zone they forfeit their opportunity".

[HeallunRumblebelly]

You're wrong. I love you, but there are rules that would stop this...2 tracker rule who can't fte etc. All you need at that point is "IF guild has more than 3 players at spawn in zone they forfeit their opportunity".

I'm not saying it's the only answer. I'm saying it is an answer and a very simple (and classic) compromise. Turns raiding into a slot machine but at least then it wouldn't be time consuming.

[Lazie]

I'm not saying it's the only answer. I'm saying it is an answer and a very simple (and classic) compromise. Turns raiding into a slot machine but at least then it wouldn't be time consuming.

It's Kunark and it's almost over. We have a system of races now that is the funnest part of the game for most of us. Drop the Variance as much as possible and let people race before Velious releases.

[Daldaen]

It's Kunark and it's almost over. We have a system of races now that is the funnest part of the game for most of us. Drop the Variance as much as possible and let people race before Velious releases.

This.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

It's Kunark and it's almost over. We have a system of races now that is the funnest part of the game for most of us. Drop the Variance as much as possible and let people race before Velious releases.

This is true. Can't really complain.

[nicemace]

or just do what most servers did on live. new content is FFA. once more than 1 guild is killing new content start it on rotation. lower guilds earn their 'shot' at entering rotation by killing pre determined targets. so easy, no drama, no retardation. then server repops are a FFA race fest.

this psudo competition is pretty silly. it really isnt even competition when you get down to the details of it all.

[G13]

or just do what most servers did on live. new content is FFA. once more than 1 guild is killing new content start it on rotation. lower guilds earn their 'shot' at entering rotation by killing pre determined targets. so easy, no drama, no retardation. then server repops are a FFA race fest.

this psudo competition is pretty silly. it really isnt even competition when you get down to the details of it all.

It's insanity

Not competition

the sock has been going for years on this server. The sock has become this server's worst enemy. It has become this entity, this Thing. It can no longer be controlled, consuming many lives in it's wake. Burning down players left and right. Back when we were creating the sock because of fags and their egos, I knew it would turn into this monster. It's never going to stop. Some ahole always has to find some way to get over on some other ahole and pee in his wheaties. It's just Human Nature.

This server isn't even remotely Classic anymore. It's become this mutant version of EQ where if you don't dedicate your entire life for precious pixels you suck at this game.

Pride/Ego is a helluva drug

[Diro]

It's insanity

Not competition

the sock has been going for years on this server. The sock has become this server's worst enemy. It has become this entity, this Thing. It can no longer be controlled, consuming many lives in it's wake. Burning down players left and right. Back when we were creating the sock because of fags and their egos, I knew it would turn into this monster. It's never going to stop. Some ahole always has to find some way to get over on some other ahole and pee in his wheaties. It's just Human Nature.

This server isn't even remotely Classic anymore. It's become this mutant version of EQ where if you don't dedicate your entire life for precious pixels you suck at this game.

Pride/Ego is a helluva drug

This is the fuckin truth. I just don't understand how the class c guilds even remotely have fun spending god knows how many hours waiting for pops. The worst part is they don't even need those drops.

[uygi]

Casting my vote for spawns-per-month system instead of windows! Always been my preference, forcing people to prioritize. The big guilds (IB, TMO and, yes, BDA too) can't cover everything. You're forced to prioritize, and the more competition there is for a given mob the more you should maybe shift focus a little instead of jumping into an arms race over it...

[texwilly]

Casting my vote for spawns-per-month system instead of windows! Always been my preference, forcing people to prioritize. The big guilds (IB, TMO and, yes, BDA too) can't cover everything. You're forced to prioritize, and the more competition there is for a given mob the more you should maybe shift focus a little instead of jumping into an arms race over it...

Yeah. I'm happy that this thread is starting to bear some fruit. I can't be the only person that fucking hates perma-logging my "elite" character. I like the idea of complete randomness on variance, my original thought was put mobs on a +-1 week variance, i changed it to +-72 so that it wouldn't be so threatening. As mentioned above, I really think that so many mobs in window is beyond the neckbeardedness we currently see. If you notice, IB and TMO have the same 5 or so people doing 90% of the tracking/FTEing.

More mobs in window will result in one of 2 things: we will need some goatee's to start growing neckbeards (IE: more basement dwellers to track endlessly) or we will start prioritizing targets and abandoning lesser targets. The latter would be my hope and would be the closest to classic that I remember.

I said it somewhere else,

Randomize the repop so it isnt locked at 1 week or whatever it is now.


A raid mob might spawn 3 times in 1 week or not once in 2 weeks.

Back when I raided on live we actually sent out trackers to find out what was before a raid would start, or do a bat phone if we accidentally found something up and a raid wasn't planned.

This is totally how i remember it. Raid time was predetermined at 5:00pm PST or whatever, we started tracking at 4:30 to figure out what we would kill. If nothing was up, we would work on epic encounters, faction, strats, whatever.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

This is the fuckin truth. I just don't understand how the class c guilds even remotely have fun spending god knows how many hours waiting for pops. The worst part is they don't even need those drops.

Everyone wants a blood orchid from druu for one toon or another, half of PDs table is fantastic, still have rogues needing RSS from xygoz, still a few monks who'd like bo staff from nex (and it sells well too if you're selling loot rights), my own goddamn warrior needs a shissar and god knows how many people want the boots, and my shaman still needs a PE hammer. Still some select drops that are very good out of these places.

VS legs are still in super high demand as are wizard staves, faydedar shields are hnngg, vox drops prayers, nagafen drops bladestoppers (and cofs are nice :3 ), gore drops prayers, tal isn't a super big deal but it's a long pull and we have OT hammers, sev green scales are always needed, trak has teeth / donals, ct has strings / aon / soul leech / gloves, inny has mage staffs (and eyes, lol), draco has bcg, and maestro has hand but that hasn't really been a priority in a long time given it's a fairly common drop and green scales are less so.

Am I missing anything?

[JackFlash]

It's insanity

Not competition

the sock has been going for years on this server. The sock has become this server's worst enemy. It has become this entity, this Thing. It can no longer be controlled, consuming many lives in it's wake. Burning down players left and right. Back when we were creating the sock because of fags and their egos, I knew it would turn into this monster. It's never going to stop. Some ahole always has to find some way to get over on some other ahole and pee in his wheaties. It's just Human Nature.

This server isn't even remotely Classic anymore. It's become this mutant version of EQ where if you don't dedicate your entire life for precious pixels you suck at this game.

Pride/Ego is a helluva drug

Truth

[Raev]

It's insanity

Not competition

the sock has been going for years on this server. The sock has become this server's worst enemy. It has become this entity, this Thing. It can no longer be controlled, consuming many lives in it's wake. Burning down players left and right. Back when we were creating the sock because of fags and their egos, I knew it would turn into this monster. It's never going to stop. Some ahole always has to find some way to get over on some other ahole and pee in his wheaties. It's just Human Nature.

This server isn't even remotely Classic anymore. It's become this mutant version of EQ where if you don't dedicate your entire life for precious pixels you suck at this game.

Pride/Ego is a helluva drug

The most remarkable thing is that it has been enshrined by the server staff as glorious competition, and if you don't like it you are casual R scum.

[texwilly]

Everyone wants a blood orchid from druu for one toon or another, half of PDs table is fantastic, still have rogues needing RSS from xygoz, still a few monks who'd like bo staff from nex (and it sells well too if you're selling loot rights), my own goddamn warrior needs a shissar and god knows how many people want the boots, and my shaman still needs a PE hammer. Still some select drops that are very good out of these places.

VS legs are still in super high demand as are wizard staves, faydedar shields are hnngg, vox drops prayers, nagafen drops bladestoppers (and cofs are nice :3 ), gore drops prayers, tal isn't a super big deal but it's a long pull and we have OT hammers, sev green scales are always needed, trak has teeth / donals, ct has strings / aon / soul leech / gloves, inny has mage staffs (and eyes, lol), draco has bcg, and maestro has hand but that hasn't really been a priority in a long time given it's a fairly common drop and green scales are less so.

Am I missing anything?

The problem is, we are gearing alt armies. We don't need these things. We are competing for alt armies.

[Nirgon]

Not having this problem on red

Bring a group over

[HeallunRumblebelly]

The problem is, we are gearing alt armies. We don't need these things. We are competing for alt armies.

I raid on every toon that I've put raid gear on. The same for everyone else. It's about versatility and preparedness.

[texwilly]

I raid on every toon that I've put raid gear on. The same for everyone else. It's about versatility and preparedness.

Want vs. need. When i raided live, 1 out of 10 people had a second main capable of raiding with the guild; at the time, i would have described them as the neckbeards of the group. There simply wasn't enough time in the progression to waste leveling an alt. On top of that, we all actually played our mains (this is also the result of AA, but let's not go there).

[Laugher]

So I was going to say tryred.gif but Nirgon beat me to it

so try plug.dj/project1999 .gif

can do it while sockquesting too

[Raev]

The problem is, we are gearing alt armies. We don't need these things. We are competing for alt armies.

The problem is that alts are necessary with the whole variance thing, because by far the fastest way to get somewhere is to camp out with buffs.

At one point I proposed that people should be able to sacrifice toons for fungi staffs/guises/etc.

In the end it all boils down to lack of progression. If we were in PoP like we should have been, none of this would be a problem.

[Doors]

This has been and always will be blues problem. You literally need 60s camped out, buffed, at as many raid mobs as possible waiting for the phone to go off.

That is why blue sucks ass. End game anyway.

People are so disillusioned and butt hurt by what they read or have experienced on red99 but the server is so much better than this one. Raid mobs are static, you know when they spawn, you mobilize and engage them. No socking, no variance.

I know people flame anyone promoting the other server and to be honest I don't give a shit if you roll there or not but you're kidding yourself if you think blue is better. The only people that actually believe that are the clueless scrubs that never actually hit end game on either server or the constant alt rerollers that can't break level 46.

[Rararboker]

I think I am going to give red99 another try. Last time I tried the population was less than 50.

[Uuruk]

They are struggling to maintain the shit show that is blue now and with rampant rmt on red and blue there is nowhere to go but down. Play on red if you are tired of the raid scene on blue.... It's simple.

[Buriedpast]

Autistic valorians were never competitive. There was no rotation. And you were not superhotshit(tm) if you were in AV not HF/RA/FE, TW. You played eq 12 months later than the competitive guilds did.

Regards, fellow scrub.

[Buriedpast]

When velious launches, make project 2000. Have an enforced rotation from day dot with 24hr unimpeded access to mobs on each guilds slot for multiple attempts. Real time classic progression applying patches as the day goes on. Aka 2014 Vazaelle timeline.

[Scoresby]

Want vs. need. When i raided live, 1 out of 10 people had a second main capable of raiding with the guild; at the time, i would have described them as the neckbeards of the group. There simply wasn't enough time in the progression to waste leveling an alt. On top of that, we all actually played our mains (this is also the result of AA, but let's not go there).

Emphasis in bold. This is one of the major contributors to the problem we have with our raid scene. Because of variance, the way to win is with numbers (both raw players and max level characters). I never recall top tier guilds fielding anywhere near the number of players guilds do on this server.

It's been beaten to death. We basically have 2-3 servers worth of raid guilds with enough characters in them to support 5+ servers. It's never going to match anyone's classic experience because of this.

It's like buying a pizza for a party only to find out 50 people are coming over rather than 10 and half of them think it's actually an audition for Man vs. Food.

[Brocode]

The fun of raids is the challenge, which here is 0, competitions adds to it, but here theres only competition.

Scale the difficulty to a harder level on raid scene, and you might see the changes on the pop socking. Might require coding, which staff avoid at all costs, but an idea.

Want an example? Sleeper in the Zek Server, mob was so strong that a Red Server guilds cooperated to kill the mob overachieving the impossible. (if you missed that http://news.mmosite.com/content/2008-12-23/20081223084659416,3.shtml)

[HeallunRumblebelly]

When velious launches, make project 2000. Have an enforced rotation from day dot with 24hr unimpeded access to mobs on each guilds slot for multiple attempts. Real time classic progression applying patches as the day goes on. Aka 2014 Vazaelle timeline.

The shit...motec? You back playing?

[Faiding]

The fun of raids is the challenge, which here is 0, competitions adds to it, but here theres only competition.

Scale the difficulty to a harder level on raid scene, and you might see the changes on the pop socking. Might require coding, which staff avoid at all costs, but an idea.

Want an example? Sleeper in the Zek Server, mob was so strong that a Red Server guilds cooperated to kill the mob overachieving the impossible. (if you missed that http://news.mmosite.com/content/2008-12-23/20081223084659416,3.shtml)

Artificially adjusting raid mob difficulty raises issues of gear scalability and balance, that I imagine would be well out of the scope of anything P99 devs would want to deal with.

Velious will smooth things out a bit. But it's really up to the CSR staff to enact rules/rotations that compensate for the prolonged gap between expansions and lack of servers.

Or simply add more servers, but that's quite pricey when you're not making any money.

[Brocode]

Artificially adjusting raid mob difficulty raises issues of gear scalability and balance, that I imagine would be well out of the scope of anything P99 devs would want to deal with.

Velious will smooth things out a bit. But it's really up to the CSR staff to enact rules/rotations that compensate for the prolonged gap between expansions and lack of servers.

Or simply add more servers, but that's quite pricey when you're not making any money.

The amount of players over a 32k HP dragon = instant over kill. Maybe should take a different perspective , thats why i said scaling (as gear will affect depend how would you implement that balance), what does raid term means? 6 players? 12? 18? 24? 72 was the number when EQ raid window arrived. There will never be a perfect system, but there are better ones than others.

[Raev]

Or simply add more servers, but that's quite pricey when you're not making any money.

I guarantee a $20,000 kickstarter for Project 2000 would be funded within 24 hours.

[Laugher]

Artificially adjusting raid mob difficulty raises issues of gear scalability and balance, that I imagine would be well out of the scope of anything P99 devs would want to deal with.

Velious will smooth things out a bit. But it's really up to the CSR staff to enact rules/rotations that compensate for the prolonged gap between expansions and lack of servers.

Or simply add more servers, but that's quite pricey when you're not making any money.

The calculations for hit/miss have been a conversation at least in Velious testing as I assume it has been throughout the release of content on 99; they have been considered in conjunction with old logs and the logs of testers to assure what could be considered as close to live as it can be without the exact coding of live's encounters. I agree; it would seem a bit laborious and subversive of the months/years of testing and modifying things to get the server to this point just to change things in the name of modifying targets that alt armies will continue to kill.

Ofc it doesn't change the fact that alt armies would still be contesting either; only a fresh start would be able to give people a chance at the brief possibility of not wrestling an alt army for gear (think about it: server restarts hardcores get capped first raiding crew(s) on server would be alting again by the time the non-24/7ish crowd was breaking cap and into raid content)

I guarantee a $20,000 kickstarter for Project 2000 would be funded within 24 hours.

I agree with this too :) Project 2019 for the 20 yr anniversary

[Doil_Boil]

I guarantee a $20,000 kickstarter for Project 2000 would be funded within 24 hours.

Unfortunately I doubt the staff are likely to do that until Velious has been released, considering that needs to be their main focus atm.

I think we need to show support and solidarity towards the beta server becoming a new p99 continual refresh server and the current blue becoming a "Legacy" server that it dumps into after a certain amount of time.

[Laugher]

Unfortunately I doubt the staff are likely to do that until Velious has been released, considering that needs to be their main focus atm.

I think we need to show support and solidarity towards the beta server becoming a new p99 continual refresh server and the current blue becoming a "Legacy" server that it dumps into after a certain amount of time.

Suggested this for Red a couple months back referring to the way Diablo II did annual ladders and dumped the ladder chars into the pool of non-ladder online chars

did not fly over there at least but I also like this idea. It is probably one of the few possibilities imo to keep a fresh community from stagnating as EQ (of this era) does not appear to be well designed for a top-heavy community

[derpcake]

Velious will smooth things out a bit. But it's really up to the CSR staff to enact rules/rotations that compensate for the prolonged gap between expansions and lack of servers.

Velious is going to ensure the hardcore neckbeards quickly gain a massive gear advantage, allowing their alts to sock in superior ways.

Ntov geared alts a ton stronger then BIS kunark mains.

With as many people as blue has, there is no way everyone is getting a piece of the pie.

[Nirgon]

You could reward all the people working on Velious beta by making it the new blue server and keep all their loots/chars

Or not

[texwilly]

Autistic valorians were never competitive. There was no rotation. And you were not superhotshit(tm) if you were in AV not HF/RA/FE, TW. You played eq 12 months later than the competitive guilds did.

Regards, fellow scrub.

Thanks for the personal attack Motec, I actually know you better than you think. I never claimed to be "superhotshit", I was providing my background so people could decide my credibility or not. Beyond the insults though, my experiences in AV (not FE mind you) were of similar timelines as where we sit now. This "uber-guild" mentality is retarded because we are not trying to make this major push for new content. That fucking ended about 2 years ago. We are all farming shit now, not figuring new content out.

Server staff wants competition. Realistic solution is to eliminate it and play nice in the sand box. Class R already figured it out, class C neckbeards are too stubborn, resulting in all kinds of weird bullshit rules and lawyering. This problem is unsolvable without more content or a new server, as you eluded to "Project 2000" which I support as well, but I called it the "green" server.

No need to flame me back, as I know will be your first reaction.

[Buhbuh]

bros, just play red.

[Culkasi]

I guarantee a $20,000 kickstarter for Project 2000 would be funded within 24 hours.

Also, this

[Tasslehofp99]

Just make every raid mob have a completely random spawn time. This way guilds have no fucking clue when shit is going to spawn, so they have to choose wisely which mobs they park out for/track. A single guild could not possibly cover everything, if everything is always in window.

As it is, whether variance is 16 hours or 2205 hours, if a guild knows a mob is due to spawn between a certain amount of time they are going to sock it. If every single mob in the game could spawn at any time, it forces guilds to choose their targets and focus their forces at those locations.

[Smilkers]

Just make every raid mob have a completely random spawn time. This way guilds have no fucking clue when shit is going to spawn, so they have to choose wisely which mobs they park out for/track. A single guild could not possibly cover everything, if everything is always in window.

As it is, whether variance is 16 hours or 2205 hours, if a guild knows a mob is due to spawn between a certain amount of time they are going to sock it. If every single mob in the game could spawn at any time, it forces guilds to choose their targets and focus their forces at those locations.

Would love if this could happen. Sounds ideal.
I've fallen out of raiding for quite a while now due to boredom. Unexpected pops at any time would definitely bring me back. Giddy over here just thinking about it. :D

[Faiding]

I guarantee a $20,000 kickstarter for Project 2000 would be funded within 24 hours.

A kickstarter campaign would probably raise some intellectual property copyright issues with Sony. I'd happily support one, though.

[Buriedpast]

Thanks for the personal attack Motec, I actually know you better than you think. I never claimed to be "superhotshit", I was providing my background so people could decide my credibility or not. Beyond the insults though, my experiences in AV (not FE mind you) were of similar timelines as where we sit now. This "uber-guild" mentality is retarded because we are not trying to make this major push for new content. That fucking ended about 2 years ago. We are all farming shit now, not figuring new content out.

Server staff wants competition. Realistic solution is to eliminate it and play nice in the sand box. Class R already figured it out, class C neckbeards are too stubborn, resulting in all kinds of weird bullshit rules and lawyering. This problem is unsolvable without more content or a new server, as you eluded to "Project 2000" which I support as well, but I called it the "green" server.

No need to flame me back, as I know will be your first reaction.

If you knew a single thing about me you would know a bloody hate the server rules, and have been asking for a project 2000 Vazaelle timeline when velious launches for years. Not now. Not a month before, not a month after. When it launches.

And above is right, it would gain 4 years of server funding almost immediately on kickstarter or a forum donation push. I'd happily monetarily support it well beyond what most would.

Idea for me would be similar to vaz. No manastones, bind lockets etc.

No flames either, as you obviously don't know me well. I'm a pacifist bluebie. All we would need is some server rules somewhat similar to current class R. Just let us out of the shitfight that is current blue that won't abate.

[Buriedpast]

A kickstarter campaign would probably raise some intellectual property copyright issues with Sony. I'd happily support one, though.

We can already donate as is.

I've paid for p99, and even for the sleeper setup that moron did for a while. I'm happy to support the server running costs for the time I play so we can enjoy such an awesome service. I doubt a p2000 server with civilized PNP ruleset would cause much if any grief.

[Buriedpast]

Just make every raid mob have a completely random spawn time. This way guilds have no fucking clue when shit is going to spawn, so they have to choose wisely which mobs they park out for/track. A single guild could not possibly cover everything, if everything is always in window.

As it is, whether variance is 16 hours or 2205 hours, if a guild knows a mob is due to spawn between a certain amount of time they are going to sock it. If every single mob in the game could spawn at any time, it forces guilds to choose their targets and focus their forces at those locations.

I think you underestimate the desire to win by people you and I know.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I think you underestimate the desire to win by people you and I know.

As far as the R guilds go, this would simply discourage them to the point of not even trying. It'd just be the tmo / ib show like before :P Things need to get easier from an organizational level if racing competition is to ever really be a thing.

Red99 has no variance, why do we have it? First 15 isn't an issue and now we have FTE shouts... One is clearly classic and one isn't :P

[Niedar]

Red99 has no variance, why do we have it? First 15 isn't an issue and now we have FTE shouts... One is clearly classic and one isn't :P

If you want no variance you could just play red instead of constantly petitioning something thats never going to happen on blue.

[Clasick]

It is my opinion that the current GMs have ties with and favor the Red server which is why they allow and even promote and condone all the shitty behavior by the class C guilds to shit on the raid scene on blue in an elaborate plan to push more people toward Red.

So why are you still here shitting up the place.
Go to red already, they have an affinity for psychopaths !
<3