VP closed to Class R guilds?

[Doil_Boil]

Just wondering why this is the story? It would be nice to be able to experience some of the true Kunark endgame without spending 16+ hours in Norrath on a daily basis.

[Oleris]

kill in VP = you are class C

[Doil_Boil]

kill in VP = you are class C

Great explanation, thanks. ;)

[Estu]

The idea is to give a strong incentive for guilds to move from Class R to Class C. It's the attitude of the staff that the best pixels should go to the guilds that are willing to put the most effort into the game. If you wanna be a casual raider but you also want VP loots, you gotta wait for Velious.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

The idea is to give a strong incentive for guilds to move from Class R to Class C. It's the attitude of the staff that the best pixels should go to the guilds that are willing to put the most effort into the game. If you wanna be a casual raider but you also want VP loots, you gotta wait for Velious.

Both guilds sell rots too iirc. Or used to. But yeah, getting a crown of rile is going to take some effort.

[quido]

Do it in Velious.

[Daldaen]

Both guilds sell rots too iirc. Or used to. But yeah, getting a crown of rile is going to take some effort.

I offer you 5k for the Silverwing Druid staff that is likely gag inducing when you see it drop and rots for the 5758th time.

Let me know.

[Erati]

6k ^

[zanderklocke]

50K for Silverwing Lute and 100K for Katana of Flowing Water. Send me a PM if you need my cell to text me log online.

[Nirgon]

how many of you scummers actually have vp keys

[Clark]

I offer you 5k for the Silverwing Druid staff that is likely gag inducing when you see it drop and rots for the 5758th time.

Let me know.

100k

[Daldaen]

100k

I counter with 6k.

[Clark]

I counter as well for you to stop posting page long responses of what you think raid rules should be. :)

[Man0warr]

Why do you think you should dictate what the rules should be? The staff asked for everyone to come together to decide - not 150ish people in 2 guilds.

[Daldaen]

I counter as well for you to stop posting page long responses of what you think raid rules should be. :)

Heaven forbid people compromise!

What I think the best scenario is, and what I'm proposing are two separate things. I made concessions just as Lazie did in our back and forth. And I do grasp that Lazie not I are guild leaders nor do we speak for our respective guilds. But if we can come to an agreement there is a hope that the leaders can as well.

It's just a matter of whether all the guilds can agree to a middle ground.

[Doil_Boil]

So, which content will be forever unavailable to non-poopsock guilds in Velious?

[Nirgon]

Pat these class R scum down for VP keys bet they don't even have em done

[Daldaen]

Pat these class R scum down for VP keys bet they don't even have em done

You doubt my status as a Classic player who does every Quest possible?!?!

[Raev]

Pat these class R scum down for VP keys bet they don't even have em done

3 VP keys NP

[Nirgon]

I like da A Team

Argh is a bawse

Rest are magits

In other news class R guilds welcome in VP on red

[Nietche]

So, which content will be forever unavailable to non-poopsock guilds in Velious?

Without the current raid scene, none of you would kill anything.

[Gimp]

The thread with class R vouching for two uncontested VP mobs every repop was pretty funny. Can't fault em for trying I guess.

[Byrjun]

I heard Sirken say that everything in Velious will be FFA with no class r or class c at launch and will adjust if necessary.

Also, that Dragon Spine Staff seems pretty rare. We've gotten like 2 in the past year?

Edit: After looking up what it does, that's probably a good thing.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I heard Sirken say that everything in Velious will be FFA with no class r or class c at launch and will adjust if necessary.

Also, that Dragon Spine Staff seems pretty rare. We've gotten like 2 in the past year?

Edit: After looking up what it does, that's probably a good thing.

You guys getting robes of the spring btw? I swear I think I saw maybe two in like 9 months of kills.

[Gimp]

Hell no.

I want one though. Convinced that and the Druushk chanter staff don't exist

[Daldaen]

I heard Sirken say that everything in Velious will be FFA with no class r or class c at launch and will adjust if necessary.

Also, that Dragon Spine Staff seems pretty rare. We've gotten like 2 in the past year?

Edit: After looking up what it does, that's probably a good thing.

Don't hate, that 200 point DD that is outdoor only is totally worth 5k and a bag slot...

[Brut]

Don't hate, that 200 point DD that is outdoor only is totally worth 5k and a bag slot...

It gets better, it has only 50 cast range so you basically need to be in melee range to cast it.

[Silent]

Jeez I didn't realize it was so bad on blue like that. VP loot was going to level 1s/alts and rotting for a year at one point, Everything except for prime loots like PD crown robe earring, and sow sword. Gagging at the sight of seeing a mage/necro/druid staff drop for sure, 95% of the loot in there is yuck.

As for Robe of the Spring, I think they are just super super rare. I have seen 2 drop in a 1 year period(on red we get sim repops, so I would say it probably averaged out to 2-3 PD a week if you take time + total sim repop/server crash respawns)

[Sularys]

All the more reason to never level beyond 40 and attempt end game on this server. Too many selfish people here hording the end game content. Should be open to everyone all the time.

[Thulack]

I like da blue server

Argh is a bawse

Red are magits

In other news class R guilds should be welcome in endzone of a 15 year old emulated game

FTFY

[Thulack]

Without the current raid scene, none of you would kill anything.

Proud of that statement? I feel sorry for you.

[Nietche]

Proud of that statement? I feel sorry for you.

I wasn't trolling as you obviously are. The point is that the current raid scene gave so-called class R guilds a chance to see end game, and rather than appreciation, many class R's are screaming for the proverbial "more, more, more" without having to work for it.

[Doil_Boil]

I wasn't trolling as you obviously are. The point is that the current raid scene gave so-called class R guilds a chance to see end game, and rather than appreciation, many class R's are screaming for the proverbial "more, more, more" without having to work for it.

"Work" meaning trade RL obligations for pixelquest?

[Sirken]

Just wondering why this is the story? It would be nice to be able to experience some of the true Kunark endgame without spending 16+ hours in Norrath on a daily basis.

This system was created and implemented with the expectation that most of the FFA mobs would go to Class C. The idea was never to "take away" from Class C so much as it was to try and allow more non Class C players to experience raid content, as well as a stepping stone to join Class C when ready. Thus making Class C more tempting to newer, up and coming guilds, as Class C will still have a larger piece of the pixel pie, will not suffer from lockouts, will have exclusive rights to VP and the best loots in Kunark era, and is given more room by staff to work out their own disputes (as it is the non restricted class).

not everyone may agree with this, but this is the position of the staff.

[Skew]

Theres 2 ways to kill VP mobs.
1)Have your guild move to class C.
2) apply to a class C guild.

TMO are currently seeming motivated players who want to raid.
Especially enchanters <3

There is nothing stopping anyone experiencing end game Kunark.

[Fael]

All the more reason to never level beyond 40 and attempt end game on this server. Too many selfish people here hording the end game content. Should be open to everyone all the time.

It is open to everyone all the time.

Go study economics sometime. Very basic concepts like scarcity, opportunity cost, and supply and demand would improve your world view greatly.

Do society a favor and get a clue please.

Dolic

[Daldaen]

This system was created and implemented with the expectation that most of the FFA mobs would go to Class C. The idea was never to "take away" from Class C so much as it was to try and allow more non Class C players to experience raid content, as well as a stepping stone to join Class C when ready. Thus making Class C more tempting to newer, up and coming guilds, as Class C will still have a larger piece of the pixel pie, will not suffer from lockouts, will have exclusive rights to VP and the best loots in Kunark era, and is given more room by staff to work out their own disputes (as it is the non restricted class).

not everyone may agree with this, but this is the position of the staff.

The current situation doesn't really allow that.

With 96-hour variance you saw basically no kills going to casual guilds because they didn't want to track for 96 hours.

Now with 16-hour variance you see again, almost no kills going to casual guilds because they don't want to track for 16 hours. Taken does on maybe 1 FFA mob a weekend. Usually one that has a favorable window. Other than that the only time other casual guilds compete on FFA mobs is very late in window and sim Repops.

Casual players don't think the reward of experiencing content and getting the best pixels is worth forcing people to stare at a wall for 16 hours until something spawns. This is why I've been trying to champion ideas that rid us of that, allowing more guilds to participate. Because nerding out and 16-hour wall staring while doing nothing else in game (see not actually PLAYING the game) shouldn't be required to experience the competitive side. Competitive is not synonymous with monotonous and tedious.

To address your latest post in raid discussions. The reason people don't stop socking is because people will walk as close to the line as possible and barely step over it enough to warrant a warning and not a ban. That's what this server does.

If you want to stop poopsocking, clear rules must be put in place. (IE - No more than 2 players in zone when raid mob spawns or DQ'd). Otherwise, people will get in that grey area as much as possible. And those who don't are destined to lose the mob. So if you aren't in the grey area of poopsocking you basically have no chance at the mob. Most evident on indoor dragons/raid mobs.

ALL of this goes away if you go to no respawn windows and just full repops. People don't have windows to sock, instead just respawns. That will foster the most competitive environment on FFA spawns that doesn't reward neckbearding and staring at a wall for 16 hours.

[Fanguru]

This system was created and implemented with the expectation that most of the FFA mobs would go to Class C. The idea was never to "take away" from Class C so much as it was to try and allow more non Class C players to experience raid content, as well as a stepping stone to join Class C when ready. Thus making Class C more tempting to newer, up and coming guilds, as Class C will still have a larger piece of the pixel pie, will not suffer from lockouts, will have exclusive rights to VP and the best loots in Kunark era, and is given more room by staff to work out their own disputes (as it is the non restricted class).

not everyone may agree with this, but this is the position of the staff.

This position implies Class C is better than Class R.
Class C and R are a different mindset:
in R, we do not want to

* spend each weekend taking shifts and being on call for 48 hours
* have an arms race with trains and guildmages to see who can FTE first
* play lawyerquest

We are very greatful for this opportunity to experience EQ again on this free server, but at this point, everyone would be much happier with a competitive server and a rotation server.

You are trying to force a playstyle on people with a life outside EQ, and any attempt by class R to level up the playing field and compete on a very select and very few mobs is met with complaints.

As a GM, you are championning class C playstyle, which is a small part of the server.
Do you have actual numbers on active class C numbers vs class R? I understand server staff has a vision, but shouldn't this vision also reflect your global playerbase wishes?

[Hitpoint]

This position implies Class C is better than Class R.
Class C and R are a different mindset:
in R, we do not want to

* spend each weekend taking shifts and being on call for 48 hours
* have an arms race with trains and guildmages to see who can FTE first
* play lawyerquest

We are very greatful for this opportunity to experience EQ again on this free server, but at this point, everyone would be much happier with a competitive server and a rotation server.

You are trying to force a playstyle on people with a life outside EQ, and any attempt by class R to level up the playing field and compete on a very select and very few mobs is met with complaints.

As a GM, you are championning class C playstyle, which is a small part of the server.
Do you have actual numbers on active class C numbers vs class R? I understand server staff has a vision, but shouldn't this vision also reflect your global playerbase wishes?

I got news for you. Class C doesn't want to do that shit either. They do it because they have to if they want to kill mobs and be in a top guild. That's why they are rewarded, and that's why class C is better. They've just earned more. I think all of this goes without saying though. Anyone posting otherwise is being deliberately dense.

[Fanguru]

This is hardly news. Agreeing to a horrible playstyle with a narrow-minded, pixel-obsessed attitude is not earning more.

Yet again, this shows the difference in mindsets: class C agrees to see EQ as a weekend of chores, while class R tries to play in a relaxed, cooperative environment promoting healthy competition with FFA on repops.

[Hitpoint]

This is hardly news. Agreeing to a horrible playstyle with a narrow-minded, pixel-obsessed attitude is not earning more.


You're right, that isn't earning more.

However, this is:


* spend each weekend taking shifts and being on call for 48 hours
* have an arms race with trains and guildmages to see who can FTE first
* play lawyerquest

[Korben]

The current situation doesn't really allow that.

With 96-hour variance you saw basically no kills going to casual guilds because they didn't want to track for 96 hours.

Now with 16-hour variance you see again, almost no kills going to casual guilds because they don't want to track for 16 hours. Taken does on maybe 1 FFA mob a weekend. Usually one that has a favorable window. Other than that the only time other casual guilds compete on FFA mobs is very late in window and sim Repops.

Casual players don't think the reward of experiencing content and getting the best pixels is worth forcing people to stare at a wall for 16 hours until something spawns. This is why I've been trying to champion ideas that rid us of that, allowing more guilds to participate. Because nerding out and 16-hour wall staring while doing nothing else in game (see not actually PLAYING the game) shouldn't be required to experience the competitive side. Competitive is not synonymous with monotonous and tedious.

To address your latest post in raid discussions. The reason people don't stop socking is because people will walk as close to the line as possible and barely step over it enough to warrant a warning and not a ban. That's what this server does.

If you want to stop poopsocking, clear rules must be put in place. (IE - No more than 2 players in zone when raid mob spawns or DQ'd). Otherwise, people will get in that grey area as much as possible. And those who don't are destined to lose the mob. So if you aren't in the grey area of poopsocking you basically have no chance at the mob. Most evident on indoor dragons/raid mobs.

ALL of this goes away if you go to no respawn windows and just full repops. People don't have windows to sock, instead just respawns. That will foster the most competitive environment on FFA spawns that doesn't reward neckbearding and staring at a wall for 16 hours.

Well look at that, someone actually making sense

[Fael]

raid scene def sucks right now and is more onerous than ever.

I will give you all that.

[heartbrand]

Holocaust recruiting on Red99, VP and all mobs on lockdown, as will be Velious. Come experience raid content without being cock blocked by a rule book longer than the Affordable Health Care Act.

[mattkwi]

Casual players don't think the reward of experiencing content and getting the best pixels is worth forcing people to stare at a wall for 16 hours until something spawns.

yet we still religiously see class R guild members camping RS, PS, and other super rare VP key pieces (that take hours and hours in most cases) and sitting in cash/item camps for hours for items.


It is the same concept. Just waiting for a 32k hp dragon instead of random_loot_dropping_mob01. Bad argument.

also this is how EQ has always been. Imagine if they did fableds on this server..

[Daldaen]

Unless you make rules black and white, they are nothing more than polite suggestions on this server. And polite suggestions don't do anything in this raid scene. I wish they did but they don't.

Going back to 96-hour variance would do nothing but reward the very people who perpetrate the majority (bolded for emphasis that they are not the sole perpetrators) of this behavior, by removing any remote possibility that casual guilds will compete and contemplate jumping up to Class C. None of them presently have the desire to track multiple targets for 16 hours. Going up to 96 will just make it a hell no.

Sirken, if your goal is competition with no poopsocking you have some realistic options:

1. You make rules about poopsocking. Currently those are limited to you cannot bind or camp on spawns, cannot have people in planar zones clearing when mob spawns, cannot have people "near" spawn other than 2 trackers in all other zones.

These rules must remove the grey area of "near" and "poopsock". With clearly defined language. Something like: you may not have more than 4 people present in zone when it spawns. Otherwise you are DQ'd. If you have more than 4, and get FTE and kill that mob, you are raid suspended for 2 week.

It needs to be real punishment that deters people from doing it. In the words of Louis CK "The reason murder isn't common is because it REALLY sucks getting caught murdering". Make it REALLY suck violating poopsock rules.

With new, and black and white rules, reduce variance. You will begin to see casual guilds appearing for FFA mobs if variance is reduced down a lot. 4 hours you may see one or two guilds. 60-30 min you may see 2 Class C and 3-4 Class R guilds competing for mobs.

2. You remove the ability of people to poopsock by changing the spawning mechanic (Respawns that are unannounced, have 6~ a month, and try to make it proportional to player activity. 3 during prime time US, 1 during late night US time, 1 during euro prime time, 1 during early morning/asian time roughly)

#2 clearly removes the necessity for most rules and will reduce the number of petitions from raids. I don't see why this isn't a favorable options from the GMs standpoint, especially if respawns are something you can automate. Currently I thought it was a manual trigger Rogean had to pull but I dunno if that's still the case.

[Daldaen]

yet we still religiously see class R guild members camping RS, PS, and other super rare VP key pieces (that take hours and hours in most cases) and sitting in cash/item camps for hours for items.


It is the same concept. Just waiting for a 32k hp dragon instead of random_loot_dropping_mob01. Bad argument.

also this is how EQ has always been. Imagine if they did fableds on this server..
Cash/Item camps you are clearing a PHer every 20 min or clearing several mobs plus a PHer. That's playing the game. Although it is extremely boring to kill one mob every X minutes... It is still requiring you do something in game to get that mob to spawn and get those pixels.

Raid mobs have no PH. They require no input from the players to spawn. They are just timed spawns. Staring at a wall for 16 hours, literally having to cast no spells, and do nothing to your character other than stare... Is not playing the game and not comparable to PS or RS at all.

Killing the dragon for sure requires you play the game. And class R has shown they are willing to kill dragons and play the game. They are not willing to stare at the wall for 16 hours waiting for it to spawn to then hope they get FTE.

[Raev]

and sitting in cash/item camps for hours for items.

Nah, you are probably just assuming everyone AFK camps stuff like TMO. I was in a full group camping the spore king on his spawn point last weekend and it was really fun - constant action. HS South is also great fun in a mid size group. You cannot seriously be comparing that to coh ducking or jav spamming or even just sitting there at the VP pad.

not everyone may agree with this, but this is the position of the staff.

So you have created a bunch of artificial, non-classic timesinks, and the people who are willing to jump through those hoops are better players? I mean if variance was classic I would agree with you 100%, but it isn't. I really wish the staff would focus on making competition fun instead of making sure Class C gets sufficient pixels. There are so many things to try (huge variance but mobs shout to the zone/server when they spawn, minirepops, more repops with half the loot table on each mob, whatever). None of those are any less classic than what we have here.

Also, IIRC the new raid agreement included 3 repops per month or more? We have only been getting like 2. Thats a fairly substantial difference and everyone agrees the repops are the best part of raiding currently.

[Erati]

They would prefer the players 'behave' rather than have them be told black and white guidelines what to do

It makes EQ a little more EQ having some free will, but at this point, with Velious still not out....some more heavy handed direction may be in order especially if the Devs/Staff are interested in opening up the FFA raid scene into a more competitive and less inclusive atmosphere for all

It does seem odd that the pixel count for Class C is the top priority for any change implemented, its an emulated server who cares if they miss out on 10% of potential pixel intake, especially when 'the best' pixels remain intact

[quido]

Maybe it's the fact that carebearing a bunch of lazy crybabies isn't one of their priorities.

[Aadill]

VP is open to all guilds. Whatwithall the potential change in how you can move from Class C to Class R being hashed out, the only requirement for getting mobs in VP is to footrace for them, regardless of class.

[Fanguru]

Is that an actual requirement or an agreement between TMO and IB? If a guild comes to VP and disregards this policy, will a GM suspend them?

[Erati]

Is that an actual requirement or an agreement between TMO and IB? If a guild comes to VP and disregards this policy, will a GM suspend them?

just IB and TMO's agreement with how they handle VP

not the servers rules

[Aadill]

Is that an actual requirement or an agreement between TMO and IB? If a guild comes to VP and disregards this policy, will a GM suspend them?

Exactly what part of the policy of "have a good old fashioned footrace" would you disregard?

CoTH ducking?

[Erati]

Exactly what part of the policy of "have a good old fashioned footrace" would you disregard?

CoTH ducking?

well for starters they dont allow bards I believe so technically a third guild could show up with their bard and just zoom by for the FTE

it prob wont get you a kill tho but would be funny as shit

[Daldaen]

Maybe it's the fact that carebearing a bunch of lazy crybabies isn't one of their priorities.

Wow the rustle is strong in this one. It's like someone took your Larrikan's Mask again...

Lazy - Yep, I'm too lazy to want to stare at a wall for 16 hours waiting on VS to spawn, sorry.
Crybabies - yea, I think the GMs, if their real goal is a competitive atmosphere that encourages progressing from R to C, then they should implement changes to facilitate that progression.

Rules that are clear to prevent poopsocking and reduce variance so that tracking is something a reasonable man would consider. Or just full respawns so it's all moot and people have the most fair of races.

[Aadill]

well for starters they dont allow bards I believe so technically a third guild could show up with their bard and just zoom by for the FTE

it prob wont get you a kill tho but would be funny as shit

That's what I'd expect, which is the only real main Class C rule over all of the other rules in FFA.

[Raev]

Maybe it's the fact that carebearing a bunch of lazy crybabies isn't one of their priorities.

If that was true, they never would have enabled variance

[mattkwi]

Nah, you are probably just assuming everyone AFK camps stuff like TMO. I was in a full group camping the spore king on his spawn point last weekend and it was really fun - constant action. HS South is also great fun in a mid size group. You cannot seriously be comparing that to coh ducking or jav spamming or even just sitting there at the VP pad.



So you have created a bunch of artificial, non-classic timesinks, and the people who are willing to jump through those hoops are better players? I mean if variance was classic I would agree with you 100%, but it isn't. I really wish the staff would focus on making competition fun instead of making sure Class C gets sufficient pixels. There are so many things to try (huge variance but mobs shout to the zone/server when they spawn, minirepops, more repops with half the loot table on each mob, whatever). None of those are any less classic than what we have here.

Also, IIRC the new raid agreement included 3 repops per month or more? We have only been getting like 2. Thats a fairly substantial difference and everyone agrees the repops are the best part of raiding currently.

Except class C has never COTh ducked unless in response to a class r guild first, class c doesn't jav spam either. And yes I would say sitting at ps killing a ph every 6.5 mins is just as boring as sitting their doing nothing. And when that dragon spawns you bet that race is a fun adrenaline Rush.

I wasnt comparing every single camp. Just pointing out people already will camp for pixels till their brain goes numb regardless of class.

[Joyelle]

well for starters they dont allow bards I believe so technically a third guild could show up with their bard and just zoom by for the FTE

it prob wont get you a kill tho but would be funny as shit

/evilgrin

[Daldaen]

Except class C has never COTh ducked unless in response to a class r guild first, class c doesn't jav spam either. And yes I would say sitting at ps killing a ph every 6.5 mins is just as boring as sitting their doing nothing. And when that dragon spawns you bet that race is a fun adrenaline Rush.

I wasnt comparing every single camp. Just pointing out people already will camp for pixels till their brain goes numb regardless of class.

Class C certainly Jav spammed back when it was allowed. Probably with autofire though...

But thats what I find funny about the disdain for CotH ducking, when Mages asking that others stop CotH ducking... That sort of request would've been laughed at heartily by a Class R member who showed up at a spawn point and asked someone to stop jav spamming and to agree to only hit that Hotkey once they see the mob. Lolololol that would've been ignored immediately.

I don't disagree with you that long camps of single mobs are boring. But that is an aspect of the game we play. Mobs have placeholders and they respawn in a specific timeframe. At which point you kill them again.

Raid mobs however aren't classic, and don't have placeholders. Their spawn time has a window which makes it not something you can AFK at and come back in 20min to check if it spawned. Any given second in a 16 hour window it can spawn. And on this server if you aren't there for all 57600 seconds, you can and will miss the spawn and FTE to another guild. You can't set a timer and be back at 8:00PM and be sure that it will respawn. Nor do they require you set up a camp and clear trash to stake your claim to that mob.

Respawns like today's are what should happen. 4 normal respawns like what we have. And 2-3 full FFA with no bag limit respawns. Do it monthly and we rejoice.

[Gimp]

Dald, I like you, but please stop trying to argue the legitimacy of CoTH ducking. That shit was awful, and anyone from Taken that started doing it at spawns should feel bad.

Wasn't here for jav spamming, but the sound of that sucked too, unless you had autofire like a certain someone that got caught doing it.

[Fael]

well for starters they dont allow bards I believe so technically a third guild could show up with their bard and just zoom by for the FTE

it prob wont get you a kill tho but would be funny as shit

This bard is for hire for such a service.

The bard restrictions are beyond stupid. But both guilds leadership don't give a fuck, what can you do.

Dolic

[Daldaen]

Dald, I like you, but please stop trying to argue the legitimacy of CoTH ducking. That shit was awful, and anyone from Taken that started doing it at spawns should feel bad.

Wasn't here for jav spamming, but the sound of that sucked too, unless you had autofire like a certain someone that got caught doing it.

What? I don't like CotH ducking. I just see the irony in the fact that those who Jav spammed hate CotH ducking.

Infact, every suggestion ive made would get rid of CotH ducking. Full respawns, required foot racing with reduced variance, partial respawns etc.

[Joyelle]

Dald, I like you, but please stop trying to argue the legitimacy of CoTH ducking. That shit was awful, and anyone from Taken that started doing it at spawns should feel bad.

Wasn't here for jav spamming, but the sound of that sucked too, unless you had autofire like a certain someone that got caught doing it.

Daldaen is one of many (including myself) in Taken that abhor coth-ducking and think it's fucking dumb. He was trying to illustrate how ironic it is. Since you weren't around for the jav-spamming you probably don't have as much appreciation for that irony though.

And i'm pretty sure there were more people (in all guilds) than that "certain someone" who used autofire when jav spamming was prevalent, they just never got recorded talking about it by a spy in TeamSpeak.

[xexbis0]

And i'm pretty sure there were more people (in all guilds) than that "certain someone" who used autofire when jav spamming was prevalent, they just never got recorded talking about it by a spy in TeamSpeak.

Class C = Republicans
Class R = Democrats

[Nietche]

Class C = Republicans
Class R = Democrats

Rofl! It just got real.

[kaev]

Class C = Republicans
Class R = Democrats

nah, RL politics is far sleazier than p99 politics

[Tasslehofp99]

Just app to a class C guild, or convince one of these class R guilds (who are fully capable of competing in class C) to move up. Probably will have better luck with the former, though. Also to anyone who wants to buy rots in VP, why don't you just convince your guild to move to class C? Taken and The A-team both would be fully capable of taking down any mob in VP, imo. Shame on any guild leadership holding their members back from experiencing the content p99 has to offer as well as limiting their member's progression.

For anyone who is worried about the time required to play in class C, its not really very different from class R at all. I go to school full time and work 6 days a week and somehow manage to find enough time to maintain a top 20 DKP position/top 5 tracking hour position.


Class C = Republicans
Class R = Democrats

lol, do people really think there is any real difference between republicans and democrats?


This bard is for hire for such a service.

The bard restrictions are beyond stupid. But both guilds leadership don't give a fuck, what can you do.

Dolic

I honestly agree. Excluding any class from performing their duties as a raider to help their guild win is absolutely fucking stupid and about as non-classic as you can get in terms of rules/agreements.

[Boti]

Join Class R heros

[Joyelle]

Shame on any guild leadership holding their members back from experiencing the content p99 has to offer as well as limiting their member's progression.


Nice try but what's truly holding us back from trying VP is *gasp* lack of VP keys, not the leadership.

[Piercesyu]

buy rots in VP

Endgame content!

But you are true, there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats, in fact

Class C : Republicans and democrats.
Class R : The people

[Getsmurfed]

Just drop VP even the thought of a single mob EVER being put on Class R. Not even a year ago 90% of the server was lucky to be in the same zone as a raid mob, and now that you're literally being handed these mobs you couldn't compete for you want even more. Hell, at a pop that would have gone FFA yesterday (Sev) guilds showed up without bards and therefore it wasn't "fair" for FTE to be on or with a bard. Get a grip of what playing a non-instanced game is. The rotation has done well for this server, but only in moderation is anything good. Earn your keep.

“The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them.” - Louis CK

In the end, this post doesn't mean shit because the vast majority of the people in this thread are completely insane one way or another. If you take anything from this both Classes are wrong. There's a balance and we had it for a while before people got greedy. Do the right thing and stop being douchenozzles, honestly. This is a great server, and a great opportunity to play a retired game in the way it was in it's hay day. I came here from more modern MMOs like WoW and such that I grew up playing as a kid. Don't ruin this shit for other people, honestly.

[Doil_Boil]

I think I was more wondering why Class R guilds can't compete for the FFA repops in VP and still only be entitled to their regular rotation pops outside of it? If TMO and IB have it locked down so hard, I would imagine Class R guilds aren't going to get much anyway.

Just seems odd that a zone is essentially off limits to certain players.

[quido]

It's not off limits. Go Class C and shut up.

[Doil_Boil]

It's not off limits. Go Class C and shut up.

Meh

[Gimp]

He's right. If you want to have a chance at killing mobs in VP, whether it being during a repop or not, join Class C. If you don't want to be class C, quit trying to lawyer up some VP kills, because it's not happening.

[Doil_Boil]

He's right. If you want to have a chance at killing mobs in VP, whether it being during a repop or not, join Class C. If you don't want to be class C, quit trying to lawyer up some VP kills, because it's not happening.

Not trying to lawyer. Just curious as to why a certain content isn't available for anybody who doesn't want to devote their lives to pixel conquest..

[Joyelle]

because your real life and your soul are the price of admission to VP and access to dem pixels.

[-TK-]

Not trying to lawyer. Just curious as to why a certain content isn't available for anybody who doesn't want to devote their lives to pixel conquest..

The GM's have already said multiple times that VP is the end-game of Kunark and unless you're willing to put in the work and effort to compete in class C, it won't be available to you until Velious. So, you can't go there because the people that run the box say you can't unless you meet their terms. And their terms say you must be class C. Now you know.

[Juhstin]

Go Red99 and shut up.



Fixed

[Doil_Boil]

The GM's have already said multiple times that VP is the end-game of Kunark and unless you're willing to put in the work and effort to compete in class C, it won't be available to you until Velious. So, you can't go there because the people that run the box say you can't unless you meet their terms. And their terms say you must be class C. Now you know.

It just seems to me that this promotes unhealthy habits when it comes to this server. It is, however, their server I suppose.

[Gimp]

deleted

[Doil_Boil]

Shit's classic. Everyone didn't see the end game raids of every expansion because the top guilds were in there every week on repop. It was multiple expansions later before guilds got to see a lot of this stuff because the other farm guilds had moved on.

Why you think it should be different here, I'll never know.

I could argue that there are quite a few differences between this server and classic in a cultural sense. The purpose of this server was to recreate p99 gameplay. There's no real reason we should recreate the negative cultural aspects of the original.

Also, if I recall correctly, Prexus had a very successful raiding schedule at this point in the game, with every guild participating.

[Gimp]

deleted

[Daldaen]

So because one server out of the 20-30 had care bear raid rotation rules, we should follow suit?

I recall being on Mith Marr and Afterlife had everything on farm at least two expansions ahead. We didn't even get to touch Velious until they were in SSRA/VT.

No server had Venril Sathir being tagged <5 seconds after spawn and killed <2minutes after spawn.

None. Anywhere. At all.

That's the stupidity. 16 hour variance with CotHing and multiple trackers the whole time. So dumb.

Reduce to 30-60 min variance, put in place foot racing rules for outdoor dragons, and clearing rules for Vox/Naggy/VS/Trakanon, and Planar mobs just remain "zone in after they spawn".

VP you can keep your favorite rules with 16 hour wall staring and whatnot. He'll give VP mobs 96 hour variance if you want I dun care. That's up to Class C.

[Fanguru]

It wasn't one server. Karana had a rotation, Terris-Thule had decency.

However, there is nothing classic about p99 raid situation, and there is no reason to copy horrible classic situations.

[Gimp]

deleted

[Daldaen]

I'm all for reducing variance. I'd say a window of ~4 hours would be fair to all parties, but it's just not gonna happen. If anything, the reduced variance will cause more people to toe the line of the ruleset and cause more socking.

And those people should be relentlessly suspended and eventually banned if they don't stop socking.

It's really simple. Make a rule that says you can only have 3 players in zone when it spawns. Otherwise you are DQ'd. If people are socking on the other side of a zone line, suspend them too. (Allow for a few outside to be camping or buffing then camping but entire groups waiting over zone lines should earn suspensions).

[Raev]

Shit's classic. Everyone didn't see the end game raids of every expansion because the top guilds were in there every week on repop.

No, it isn't. This position is taken by nearly every one in the C guilds and it is simply ridiculous. Nilbog has made it very clear that P1999 is here to replicate classic mechanics over classic feel. This is why we have epic mage/donals bp cleric teams tearing stuff up, massive mallet/bladestopper exploits, hybrids unable to get a group, etc.

On live, the top guilds were limited simply because there were not all that many L60 toons: with Kunark lasting 8 months, figuring out game mechanics and quests, more lag etc it was just much harder. It is different here.

[Fountree]

.

[Raev]

No server had Venril Sathir being tagged <5 seconds after spawn and killed <2minutes after spawn.

None. Anywhere. At all.

Exactly. This is my problem with the current raid rules: if we are going to deviate from classic, we should pick something fun, not something that replicates a tier system via people who are willing to stare at the wall.

FWIW, I suspect Afterlife and Fires of Heaven would be facepalming hard when they watch what passes for competition here (they'd probably do it anyway, though!)

[-TK-]

VP will never be a "Class R" thing. The "best" content is always going to be something that will go to the guilds who put the most time/effort into getting there.

I still don't understand what is not clear about this. It states a ruling and gives the reasoning.

Whether anyone likes it or not, this is the mentality of those running the show. Step-up or gtfo. And I don't know how you say you're not trying to lawyer your way into VP after reading the last few posts.

[Erati]

I still don't understand what is not clear about this. It states a ruling and gives the reasoning.

Whether anyone likes it or not, this is the mentality of those running the show. Step-up or gtfo. And I don't know how you say you're not trying to lawyer your way into VP after reading the last few posts.

No one is really disagreeing with the ruling, we simply dont understand the logic.

If the best and the brightest need all these added layers of protection from the 'casual scum' then it makes you wonder why there is so much pandering to one group of people

and lets remember what even 'separates' them from the others....the willingness to go full neckbeard when approached with these time sink problems

Raev makes an excellent point each time he posts and I will re-iterate it....

Why adopt more timesinks rather than accepting that things here are never going to be all that 'classic feeling' and work on integrating changes that add 'fun' but keep in the spirit of classic EQ.

inb4 Clark's Custom99 quips, I dont think anyone here wants carnival type attractions in terms of their dragon encounters, but there are so many great ideas out there that would add a little bit of fun and classic flavor up in this piece that its crazy the main focus ( besides Velious ) seems to be keeping pixels flowing to the top 5%ers.

[-TK-]

So if 'willingness to go full neckbeard' = 'more time/effort', then I'm confused as to where the disconnect is based on the Deru's post. It's a rose by another name.

I guarantee that TMO and IB continually put more neckbeard (time/effort) into preparing for the endgame than other guilds. Everyone pokes fun at their 5/6/7th alt, but that is time and effort. They are prepared to camp out a character at each mob and their reward for the time invested is the top level endgame content. They are also willing to log-in in force at all hours of the day to kill mobs and do so consistently. You shouldn't hate someone because they have more time to play than you whether you think they are lame for it or not. They put in a LOT of time/effort to be setup for raiding. It's their primary goal when they log in. Any guild could do the same if they are so motivated. Everquest has always been a game that rewards time and effort. I see no difference in this instance.

The way I've seen it over the past year, as have many others, is that this started with TMO and IB locking down pretty much all the raid mobs and the other guilds complained. The GMs intervened and forced IB and TMO to give up numerous spawns but in the process made VP exclusive to them to counter what they were giving up. So here we are almost a year later and now class R wants TMO and IB to give up VP without giving anything up themselves. It doesn't make sense. Class R has the option to kill mobs in VP, but first they must be willing to risk the allotted spawns they were given last year. I don't see how that is not fair. I suspected this might happen as class R became more bloated and guilds began waiting longer and longer for spawns but that is irrelevant.

This is just my own opinion, of course. The logic doesn't seem too awry to me, but I also don't spend as much time worrying about it as some people do.

[Man0warr]

Nah just this guy who posted the thread wants Class C to give up VP.

Most of Class R wants to remove FFA cycle to minimize the amount of time having to interact with Class C and also to eliminate poopsocking. But they don't care if Class C keeps VP exclusivity in the deal - that is their bonus for their time spent.

[Buhbuh]

On Red 99, VP is for whichever guild can take it forcefully. Don't wait in line anymore, bros.

I know this shit aggravates you. PM me, we'll get you setup. Bring your pals, group exp is fast. Come make gains and learn to PvP.

[-TK-]

Nah just this guy who posted the thread wants Class C to give up VP.

Most of Class R wants to remove FFA cycle to minimize the amount of time having to interact with Class C and also to eliminate poopsocking. But they don't care if Class C keeps VP exclusivity in the deal - that is their bonus for their time spent.

That seems a lot more logical than what I was taking away from this. I can't claim to know the full stance of the class R guilds but can only infer it from in-game conversations and forum posts. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Raev]

So if 'willingness to go full neckbeard' = 'more time/effort', then I'm confused as to where the disconnect is based on the Deru's post. It's a rose by another name.

No one is disputing that FITEMOBS (this acronym was so much cooler when FE was still around) puts in more time.

What we are questioning is why, if the staff decided to go to a nonclassic raid system, was it one that rewarded people for staring at a wall (variance) and not for skill (repops).

[skipdog]

So if 'willingness to go full neckbeard' = 'more time/effort', then I'm confused as to where the disconnect is based on the Deru's post. It's a rose by another name.

I guarantee that TMO and IB continually put more neckbeard (time/effort) into preparing for the endgame than other guilds. Everyone pokes fun at their 5/6/7th alt, but that is time and effort. They are prepared to camp out a character at each mob and their reward for the time invested is the top level endgame content. They are also willing to log-in in force at all hours of the day to kill mobs and do so consistently. You shouldn't hate someone because they have more time to play than you whether you think they are lame for it or not. They put in a LOT of time/effort to be setup for raiding. It's their primary goal when they log in. Any guild could do the same if they are so motivated. Everquest has always been a game that rewards time and effort. I see no difference in this instance.

The way I've seen it over the past year, as have many others, is that this started with TMO and IB locking down pretty much all the raid mobs and the other guilds complained. The GMs intervened and forced IB and TMO to give up numerous spawns but in the process made VP exclusive to them to counter what they were giving up. So here we are almost a year later and now class R wants TMO and IB to give up VP without giving anything up themselves. It doesn't make sense. Class R has the option to kill mobs in VP, but first they must be willing to risk the allotted spawns they were given last year. I don't see how that is not fair. I suspected this might happen as class R became more bloated and guilds began waiting longer and longer for spawns but that is irrelevant.

This is just my own opinion, of course. The logic doesn't seem too awry to me, but I also don't spend as much time worrying about it as some people do.

great post. sad that so many can't grasp or agree with this logic...

[-TK-]

No one is disputing that FITEMOBS (this acronym was so much cooler when FE was still around) puts in more time.

What we are questioning is why, if the staff decided to go to a nonclassic raid system, was it one that rewarded people for staring at a wall (variance) and not for skill (repops).

I would say that from my experience in life in general, those that put more time and effort into something come out with the biggest rewards and usually skill is a bi-product of that time and effort. That seems logical to me as well.

[Erati]

great post. sad that so many can't grasp or agree with this logic...

wat?

No one is debating that TMO/IB don't 'earn' their VP pixels....they certainly put in more time than everyone else.

Myself, Raev and others just openly question why the Staff is so gunhoe to 'rewarding' that form of dedication over simply focusing on the mechanics of the raid scene and how it functions with the entire playerbase....not just the top 5% of the neckbeards.

I mean I am pretty damn neckbeardy myself, been here since 2009....I have 3 lvl 60s, and 2 lvl 50ies all raided out n shit yet I cant hold a candle to some of the top percenters.

I am sure there are plenty very similar to myself and its just an interesting platform to take.

Class R does not want VP handed to them at all. But if the cream is suppose to rise to the top then its just peculiar that there are so many fail safe filters ced cream has to pass tru to get there rather than just letting it happen.

[Man0warr]

I'd rather work (raid) smarter - poopsocking for 16 hours is akin to working a double shift at McDonalds and KFC. Sure it's effort, but it doesn't mean you really used skill to accomplish anything.

[-TK-]

Class R does not want VP handed to them at all. But if the cream is suppose to rise to the top then its just peculiar that there are so many fail safe filters ced cream has to pass tru to get there rather than just letting it happen.

Perhaps my understanding of the raiding structure is unclear, as I'm just a minion. I thought that in order to be able to compete in class C you just have to kill a class C designated mob? What are these class C fail safes? If anything, it seems to me that class R wants the fail safes in case they can't cut-it in class C after trying.

I'd rather work (raid) smarter - poopsocking for 16 hours is akin to working a double shift at McDonalds and KFC. Sure it's effort, but it doesn't mean you really used skill to accomplish anything.

I understand that completely, but I don't think that it will ever go away unless you pre-determine which guild gets which mob during each spawn. I don't see that happening. As long as there is one guild going against another for a mob, someone will always try to have the edge. Is this in the end why class R wants to do away with FFA? So class C can poopsock to their hearts desire while class R designates spawns?

Thanks for the dialogue. I'm developing a better understanding of what people really are looking for.

[Raev]

I would say that from my experience in life in general, those that put more time and effort into something come out with the biggest rewards and usually skill is a bi-product of that time and effort. That seems logical to me as well.

Please replace "time and effort" in your paragraph with "staring at a wall for 16 hours" and see if it still makes sense to you.

There are quite a few people on this server who would like to see a full rotation on everything. I think that would be rather boring. If this server had 8 repops a month and was full FFA, your paragraph would actually make sense. The people that geared/leveled/improved coordination would do well, and those that did not would suck.

Also, there is no question in my mind that IB and TMO are in general better at that coordination than the R guilds. I was in IB for a while and its a well maintained ship with some nice people. I just didn't like the timesinks - it was jav spamming at the time.

[Ele]

Let's nuke the server and lock everyone into one account with limited password changes/resets.

[Ella`Ella]

Wipe it clean

[Erati]

I thought that in order to be able to compete in class C you just have to kill a class C designated mob? What are these class C fail safes? If anything, it seems to me that class R wants the fail safes in case they can't cut-it in class C after trying.



Yes, to become class C you have to kill any Class C designated mob OR kill a dragon in VP which are all Class C 100% of the time

the failsafes I am referring to are the facts that there are even protected Class C spawns outside of VP. Since it was determined that over 90% of the FFA mobs would go to Class C guilds ( hardest working thus obtain more FTE pixels ) then a more realistic representative cycle for such a play style would be are simply FFA, with no protected C mobs outside of VP.

Since most casual scum guilds dont want to put the effort required to bag those mobs, these would not even be that heavily contested anyway but the fact remains right now there are a whole slew of mobs which are protected and can only be competed for by 2 guilds.

I get it, Class R guilds were getting 0% and the 30% we are getting now is seen as a 'gift', but from a mechanic standpoint it makes sense that Class C guilds are so advanced and they derive all their fun from beating others than they should be eager for that type of challenge ( no more Class C spawns outside of VP, only FFA )

Since this idea will be laughed at or seen as absurd, the next logical idea from a mechanic standpoint has been the other popular cut the FFA out of the cycle and have FFA only active on earthquakes but again Class C does not see any potential for this type of game play. They prefer having protected spawns.

Obviously Class R also prefers having protected spawns, who wouldnt, but R is the restricted class that needs as much help as it can get. The protected spawns are also more limited and as Sirken said last night before Stream got wonky " you are not suppose to retire your guild to Class R and live there".

I am kinda rambling now hmm lunch

[Bazia]

you guys would have so much more fun endgame on red if you would spend the 3 weeks to level to it

not trolling at all or insulting blue, its just so much more dynamic and less dramatic

[Uteunayr]

Wipe it and split it. A rotation server for those that come from servers with a history of rotation, and a FFA server for those that come from servers with a history of FFA.

[Fanguru]

Wipe it and split it. A rotation server for those that come from servers with a history of rotation, and a FFA server for those that come from servers with a history of FFA.

I would love that. I'm pretty sure the FFA server would have 200 players at peak time though :p
It would also probably lose its population fast when players lose interest because there is no casual scum to envy their shinies.

[Loke]

The reason for the layer of protection in VP is to counter the layer of protection afforded to class R guilds when the class system was created. To make implementation of he class system equitable for all parties, there was give and take on both sides. Class C gave up mobs outside VP (because prior to the system all mobs were essentially class C) and in return they got the caveat that top tier content remained class C. I personally haven't heard class C people trying to alter the deal that was made, yet it seems every week there is a new post by someone in class R trying to have their cake and eat it too.

If you want to raid end game content, you have to leave the loving protection class R affords you, it is really as simple as that. It isn't about whether class C could handle the competition, more that they negotiated this agreement in good faith, and expect it to be honored, just as you expect them to honor your classes rotation. If you want to remove protections afforded to guilds, I'm sure class C would be happy to go back to the way it was, with no class system or bag limits, but to continually try to alter the agreement in your favor when class C has continued to honor their's indicates to me that class C isn't the real problem.

Oh how quickly class R forgets what raiding was like before the class system.

***disclaimer: I haven't raided in over 6 months, so my knowledge of recent events is not perfect or complete. This is just my observation as someone who has been around for awhile and still lurks on the forums****

[-TK-]

Please replace "time and effort" in your paragraph with "staring at a wall for 16 hours" and see if it still makes sense to you.

I understand what you are saying there, and I don't think anyone would say that it requires anything but time to track. The time and effort I see goes into the guild coordination of leveling specific characters specifically for tracking and real people taking turns so no one gets burnt out. I surely don't mind tracking while I'm watching a movie or working at my desk for a few hours or helping to PL a tracking character. I pity anyone that literally sits there staring at a wall, but more power to them if they want to. If other guilds can't coordinate to do something similar, then that guild collectively doesn't want those pixels as bad. TMO and IB have people that are willing to put in that time and effort for the benefit of the guild as well as themselves. You may think it's ridiculous to put in that effort, but that is where the separation lies between C and R.

Yes, to become class C you have to...

A lot of that makes sense as well, but if class R is supposed to be a stepping stone, by removing FFA mobs you are removing opportunities for guilds to practice against class C guilds outside of repops. (1 per month?) I would imagine the FFAs would equal more opportunities to practice and hone your skills against class C guilds without sacrificing the class R designated spawns, enabling guilds to move up faster.

And I believe the designated class C protected spawns (outside of VP) were designated that way because they did give up a lot of spawns with the new system. If you look at it this way, no spawns are are off limits to class R (VP included if you're willing to make the jump), but there are numerous spawns absolutely off limits to class C that are punishable if engaged. A protected non-vp spawn here and there doesn't seem that outlandish when they practically could be wiping the continents clean. And if the system is intended for people to be moving up to class C, then those protected spawns make perfect sense as class C grows. At the end of the day I think this all comes back to time and effort as discussed in previous post. It doesn't seem fair that the guilds putting in more time, effort, and prep work get the lion's share of spawns? Does it bother you that class C is getting more loot? Then take a risk and step up to contest for it and you'll have a few protected spawns to compete against as well outside of VP. Nothing risked, nothing gained.

I'm just a talking head, and everything I typed may not have come out the way I intended, but where things don't seem ideal for everyone around here, they reflect the truths of life. Thanks for taking the time to expand my understanding of the current situation.

[Man0warr]

If you want to raid end game content, you have to leave the loving protection class R affords you, it is really as simple as that. It isn't about whether class C could handle the competition, more that they negotiated this agreement in good faith, and expect it to be honored, just as you expect them to honor your classes rotation. If you want to remove protections afforded to guilds, I'm sure class C would be happy to go back to the way it was, with no class system or bag limits, but to continually try to alter the agreement in your favor when class C has continued to honor their's indicates to me that class C isn't the real problem.

Class C didn't negotiate anything in good faith - no one did in fact.

What we have is what Rogean gave to us, with much kicking and screaming from Class C.

A lot of that makes sense as well, but if class R is supposed to be a stepping stone, by removing FFA mobs you are removing opportunities for guilds to practice against class C guilds outside of repops. (1 per month?) I would imagine the FFAs would equal more opportunities to practice and hone your skills against class C guilds without sacrificing the class R designated spawns, enabling guilds to move up faster.

Except that is only the GMs perception - no one in Class R views FFA cycle as a stepping stone, because no one in Class R would ever dream of moving up to Class C. It's a different play style - the majority of players Class R guilds have recruited wouldn't take the change well and any Class R guild going to Class C would quickly destroy itself. Anyone who wanted to play like a Class C guild are already a part of one.

The whole point is to separate the two play styles completely.

[quido]

I'm really shocked that none of you weaklings have made the plunge to Class C. What do you really have to lose? One rotation mob a week?

[Man0warr]

I'm really shocked that none of you weaklings have made the plunge to Class C. What do you really have to lose? One rotation mob a week?

Their guild breaking apart.

[quido]

If 0.8 rotation mobs a week are what's holding your guild together, maybe you owe it yourself to just disband.

[Man0warr]

It has nothing to do with the mobs.

[Ella`Ella]

It has everything to do with the pixels.

[-TK-]

Class C didn't negotiate anything in good faith - no one did in fact.

What we have is what Rogean gave to us, with much kicking and screaming from Class C.



Except that is only the GMs perception - no one in Class R views FFA cycle as a stepping stone, because no one in Class R would ever dream of moving up to Class C. It's a different play style - the majority of players Class R guilds have recruited wouldn't take the change well and any Class R guild going to Class C would quickly destroy itself. Anyone who wanted to play like a Class C guild are already a part of one.

The whole point is to separate the two play styles completely.

The GM's devised the system with a certain end in mind and if that is their end then people need to respect that and move on as they run the show. While I'm not going to search for the quote, I do remember the GM's stating that they prefer a competitive server over a rotation which is why class R's had to be player made. Class R has the hand that was dealt to them by the staff and now they need to decide whether to ante up and play the hand (class R), go all-in (class C), or fold. Stop asking for an extra card. The likely hood of any big changes before Velious is slim.

[wwoneo]

The reason for the layer of protection in VP is to counter the layer of protection afforded to class R guilds when the class system was created. To make implementation of he class system equitable for all parties, there was give and take on both sides. Class C gave up mobs outside VP (because prior to the system all mobs were essentially class C) and in return they got the caveat that top tier content remained class C. I personally haven't heard class C people trying to alter the deal that was made, yet it seems every week there is a new post by someone in class R trying to have their cake and eat it too.

This is why I suggested making raid boss spawns a Scheduled Earthquake (in other words all bosses will ONLY spawn on an earthquake <all at the same time> and everyone knows when the earthquake will occur allowing proper preparation.

This will also provide the opportunity to advance and still keep the spirit of competition because you can contest whatever spawns you want and there will still be a race.

Note: some additional small rules can be added to make things run more smoothly such as no guilds can be INSIDE (or camped inside) the zone with the raid boss when the earthquake occurs, and you can only attempt 1 boss at a time as a guild, etc...

If you want to raid end game content, you have to leave the loving protection class R affords you, it is really as simple as that. It isn't about whether class C could handle the competition, more that they negotiated this agreement in good faith, and expect it to be honored, just as you expect them to honor your classes rotation. If you want to remove protections afforded to guilds, I'm sure class C would be happy to go back to the way it was, with no class system or bag limits, but to continually try to alter the agreement in your favor when class C has continued to honor their's indicates to me that class C isn't the real problem.

My suggestion (noted above) will also remove the necessity of having a rotation and any "protection" that is currently provided to C and R class guilds. Having scheduled simulated repops would also prevent any one guild from receiving more than their fair share of mobs as one guild cannot be everywhere at the same time.

[wwoneo]

I would also like to note that the suggestion in my comment above would eliminate starring at a wall for 16 hours.

Edit:
Also if a GM reads this, my suggestion of placing all raid boss repops on a scheduled earthquake addresses many of your concerns of a competitive raid scene with no rotations.

[Loke]

I'm on my phone, so I'm not going to quote you, but this is a response to man0warr.

You are wrong - both sides negotiated (how much good faith is up for dispute I guess though) and rogean/Sirken acted as an arbiter. Both sides submitted suggestions on what they felt was fair, which were obviously skewed in opposite directions, and the staff created a system that fell some where in the middle. That is how a mediated negotiation works between two hostile parties. That doesn't change the fact that is it bad form to come back with your hands out asking for more and expecting to give nothing in return. If class R really wants to compete in VP they should propose an alteration of the agreement to class C and the GMs, not make weekly posts saying how unfair an agreement is that gave them a far greater number of mobs than they recieved previously.

Class R seems to want to have it both ways - play their way, and also play class C's way, while at the same time demanding class C be excluded from the class R samd box. Why not offer class C a spot in the rotation in exchange for FFA in VP? Because then you wouldnt be getting something for nothing. I have no idea if class C or GMs would go for somethig like that, but atleast that would be an attempt to negotiate instead of begging for more hand outs. Who knows, maybe class C guilds would like some nice relaxed engages every now and again. Ofcourse that would also reduce class R pixels, but only class C cares about pixels, right?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Wipe it clean

As someone with 8 or 9ish 60s, honestly , wiping it clean would bring such life back to this server.

[wwoneo]

As someone with 8 or 9ish 60s, honestly , wiping it clean would bring such life back to this server.

Why bother wiping it clean now? Might as well wait a few years after Velious comes out.

[Daldaen]

Week 1 - Full FFA, no classes, Poopsock to your hearts content, zero variance, mobs spawn exactly 7 or 3 days after death. No bag limits. Just follow FTE and no Training.
Week 2 - Class C, compete to your hearts content, however the hell you wish. Poopsock, foot race, circle jerk, Neckbeard... Whatever it is that gets your jimmies excited. Zero variance. If you kill mobs this week, you are precluded from partaking in next weeks festivities
Week 3 - Class R, rotate all mobs. Zero variance.
Week 4 - Random /roll of above 3 weeks of rules with equal weight. 2/3 times it will be a system that favors Class C.

Respawns are full FFA with 2 bag limit.

Discuss.

[Man0warr]

I'm on my phone, so I'm not going to quote you, but this is a response to man0warr.

You are wrong - both sides negotiated (how much good faith is up for dispute I guess though) and rogean/Sirken acted as an arbiter. Both sides submitted suggestions on what they felt was fair, which were obviously skewed in opposite directions, and the staff created a system that fell some where in the middle. That is how a mediated negotiation works between two hostile parties. That doesn't change the fact that is it bad form to come back with your hands out asking for more and expecting to give nothing in return. If class R really wants to compete in VP they should propose an alteration of the agreement to class C and the GMs, not make weekly posts saying how unfair an agreement is that gave them a far greater number of mobs than they recieved previously.

Class R seems to want to have it both ways - play their way, and also play class C's way, while at the same time demanding class C be excluded from the class R samd box. Why not offer class C a spot in the rotation in exchange for FFA in VP? Because then you wouldnt be getting something for nothing. I have no idea if class C or GMs would go for somethig like that, but atleast that would be an attempt to negotiate instead of begging for more hand outs. Who knows, maybe class C guilds would like some nice relaxed engages every now and again. Ofcourse that would also reduce class R pixels, but only class C cares about pixels, right?

Despite this thread title, no class R leaders are asking Class C to give up VP exclusivity. They just want the FFA cycle removed to decrease intra-class interaction and drama/petitions/poopsocking.

[quido]

Week 1 - Full FFA, no classes, Poopsock to your hearts content, zero variance, mobs spawn exactly 7 or 3 days after death. No bag limits. Just follow FTE and no Training.
Week 2 - Class C, compete to your hearts content, however the hell you wish. Poopsock, foot race, circle jerk, Neckbeard... Whatever it is that gets your jimmies excited. Zero variance. If you kill mobs this week, you are precluded from partaking in next weeks festivities
Week 3 - Class R, rotate all mobs. Zero variance.
Week 4 - Random /roll of above 3 weeks of rules with equal weight. 2/3 times it will be a system that favors Class C.

Respawns are full FFA with 2 bag limit.

Discuss.

Isn't it complicated enough already?

[Halfelfbard]

There are pixel's and sub pixels. Brah.

[Danth]

As someone with 8 or 9ish 60s, honestly , wiping it clean would bring such life back to this server.

As someone with one 60, a server wipe would ensure I'd never log back in here again. I have neither the time nor the inclination to replace that much lost investment.

Danth

[Servellious]

Know what's funnier than Bp class c only, telling a guild they can't kill a mob because it's against the rules

[Clasick]

I don't know why you guys are beating a dead horse when it has been clearly stated by staff FFA is not going away.

Class 'R' will whine and complain to get their hands on more uncontested mobs.

Class 'R' is doing this under the guise that "we don't want more mobs, we just want to remove class 'C' and 'R' interaction.

Simple solution is we make the FFA class 'C' only. This would eliminate any chance at competition between class R/C R/R guilds. Or, you know, you can just stop competing for the FFA mobs right now instead of dictating the play style for all class 'R' guild.

After all guys this is not about trying to get more uncontested mobs in class 'R' right ?
amirite ?

[zanderklocke]

As someone with 8 or 9ish 60s, honestly , wiping it clean would bring such life back to this server.

Good lord. Do you or Unbrella have 8+ level 60 characters?

[Loke]

Good lord. Do you or Unbrella have 8+ level 60 characters?

My guess would be that like myself, he's probably inherited a few characters from friends who quit. I've got 10+ accounts with 6 or 7 of them having L60s and the others with at least a mid 50, but only 4 were originally mine (and one of those I bought at 45 when account trades were still kosher). That isn't even counting my monk and druid I sold (again, back when account trades were okay). I mean, after awhile you get bored and need stuff to do. Some people farm ungodly amounts of plat or PL for $$, others make new characters to level with friends.

It isn't like the raid guilds purposely PL armies of alts either. Hell, I'm pretty sure the utility characters IB made like a year ago still can't do anything useful, and that is even with minor incentives to get members to level them. I've been a member of every major raid guild except Transcendence and TMO, and none of them purposely PL'd members alts or anything that I saw - just bored people leveling new characters.

I'd have been surprised if Heallun didn't have at least a few 60s with how long he's been around.

[Sirken]

Chest and I discussed a lot of the Class R/C stuff, future Class R guilds, VP, and Velious.

Cucumbers was there to keep it sexy :cool:

http://youtu.be/-dWWLDMLwXM

[HeallunRumblebelly]

My guess would be that like myself, he's probably inherited a few characters from friends who quit. I've got 10+ accounts with 6 or 7 of them having L60s and the others with at least a mid 50, but only 4 were originally mine (and one of those I bought at 45 when account trades were still kosher). That isn't even counting my monk and druid I sold (again, back when account trades were okay). I mean, after awhile you get bored and need stuff to do. Some people farm ungodly amounts of plat or PL for $$, others make new characters to level with friends.

It isn't like the raid guilds purposely PL armies of alts either. Hell, I'm pretty sure the utility characters IB made like a year ago still can't do anything useful, and that is even with minor incentives to get members to level them. I've been a member of every major raid guild except Transcendence and TMO, and none of them purposely PL'd members alts or anything that I saw - just bored people leveling new characters.

I'd have been surprised if Heallun didn't have at least a few 60s with how long he's been around.

Heallun has 8 or 9 at this point . I share with roto. He's not sure he coming back for velious. Miss u Loke, even if you filthy mq2 user. We'll always have sol b bby.

Edit: only had like 2 prior to raiding harder. Chardoked like 5 of them over a 3 month period just to park them with mr gear at targets. We picked up shooma from fatty back in the day for a crazy good deal as well. Classic bda scum account sellers.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

As someone with one 60, a server wipe would ensure I'd never log back in here again. I have neither the time nor the inclination to replace that much lost investment.

Danth

But we could farm ghoul bane for 8 hours and get 1 bar of yellow xp! We might even get more danthrotica! You had more fun back then, admit it. You ever get that arthritis or whatever worked out? And is Lara feeling better?

[Loke]

danthrotica

I still can't believe no one has logs of those. I lost all my logs prior to 2012 when I got a new PC and wish I had saved them now. That red shoe wearing, gold tooth having Erudite sure had a thing for Danth and Andain.

/mourn global ooc

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I still can't believe no one has logs of those. I lost all my logs prior to 2012 when I got a new PC and wish I had saved them now. That red shoe wearing, gold tooth having Erudite sure had a thing for Danth and Andain.

/mourn global ooc
They say andain is still Fucking cats and sewing his penis back on to this very day...

[Danth]

But we could farm ghoul bane for 8 hours and get 1 bar of yellow xp! We might even get more danthrotica! You had more fun back then, admit it. You ever get that arthritis or whatever worked out? And is Lara feeling better?

Hah! P1999's better now than it was in 2009, server was a bit rough around the edges when it initially opened. Plus the Shadow Knight/Shaman duo the wife and I switched to a few years ago suits our current needs (read: busy life) much better than our old duo does. That being said, the /ooc spammer was funny stuff. I always wondered where he was cut-and-pasting it from. I can't imagine he wrote all that silliness himself.

The VP situation will be resolved soon as Velious opens. Then I can look forward to reading threads about Sleeper's and possibly Temple Veeshan instead.

Danth

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Hah! P1999's better now than it was in 2009, server was a bit rough around the edges when it initially opened. Plus the Shadow Knight/Shaman duo the wife and I switched to a few years ago suits our current needs (read: busy life) much better than our old duo does. That being said, the /ooc spammer was funny stuff. I always wondered where he was cut-and-pasting it from. I can't imagine he wrote all that silliness himself.

The VP situation will be resolved soon as Velious opens. Then I can look forward to reading threads about Sleeper's and possibly Temple Veeshan instead.

Danth

Mobilization is a real thing in velious. Not fte fuckfrsts we have now . Even the easy mobs on beta make current mobs look like trash . Even zlandi, who should be a god dammed pushover is a monster without walling his aoe in a very strange way.

[Pheer]

I still can't believe no one has logs of those. I lost all my logs prior to 2012 when I got a new PC and wish I had saved them now. That red shoe wearing, gold tooth having Erudite sure had a thing for Danth and Andain.

/mourn global ooc

i had numerous screenshots and logs of the stories about the erudite with gold teeth and red shoes, but lost them all in a harddrive crash years ago

[HeallunRumblebelly]

i had numerous screenshots and logs of the stories about the erudite with gold teeth and red shoes, but lost them all in a harddrive crash years ago

Gold teeth red shoes conspiracy.

Also. Pheer you ever play your mage anymore ? Don't think I ever even saw him for traksocks.

[Stonecrush]

This made 15 f*cking pages?

I've got all your problems solved right here... Take all raid content and make it Instanced.
If I hear one "Not Classic" then please be struck by a stone and look at the current spawn timers for raid content. FFS it's not Classic it's P99 and an attempt at being classic.
Stop crying, stop trying to lawyer your way for a mob, and no I didn't read after page 8 because my BM was more interesting.

So much crying over a free video game.

P.S. I'm not for either side, I just hate seeing Kids fight.

[Niedar]

I have it solved also, play red.

[Pheer]

Gold teeth red shoes conspiracy.

Also. Pheer you ever play your mage anymore ? Don't think I ever even saw him for traksocks.

Hes level 51 and still wearing relatively the same gear hes had since i made my SK back in like early 2010, I only use him to farm random shit occasionally

Also hes still wielding the mighty server first dragoon dirk in his range slot. Stay jelly.

[tradereq]

people join p99 cus wanna experience classic eq. get pissed cus raid scene like classic eq (highly competitive and the guys with most time/knowledge/skill win). lawl.

[Daldaen]

people join p99 cus wanna experience classic eq. get pissed cus raid scene like classic eq (highly competitive and the guys with most time/knowledge/skill win). lawl.

Taken or BDA would easily have been the top guilds on any classic server.

No classic server had footracers taking off the second a mob spawns. No raid mobs died <2minutes after their spawn. No one considered staring into a wall doing literally NOTHING but pressing track or not even that, "skill" on a classic server.

The raid scene here isn't classic. As evidence by variance.

Remove variance entirely and keep the no socking rules in place. The server will be way better off.

[Hitpoint]

Remove variance entirely and keep the no socking rules in place. The server will be way better off.

Yes. Long variance was necessary under the old rules. Since trackers cannot fte anymore, and people can't park past the zone in, it's entirely unnecessary now. Definitely not 16 hours of variance at least.

[skipdog]

people join p99 cus wanna experience classic eq. get pissed cus raid scene like classic eq (highly competitive and the guys with most time/knowledge/skill win). lawl.

pretty much sums it up rofl. they just wanna claim that 'raid scene here isn't classic' even tho its 2 guilds dominating the top end content which is pretty accurate to a classic experience. removing variance would be a poopsock fest and then you have to implement no poopsocking rules which is.... again, not classic. there isn't even a point in trying to argue with them haha. boggles my mind that some class R guilds who are now getting pretty regular kills on everything when they used to get squat, are still whining like crazy for more welfare mobs lol. if you are playing this game just to 'experience killing dragons/gods', go have your guild make 60s on another emu and DO IT!!! There is nothing stopping you.

[falkun]

1-2 guilds dominated each server because that's all the high level players that server had. TMO/IB would be "world 1st" style guilds in comparison to Classic guilds and the BDAs, Takens and Divinitys would be the top of their respective servers. Even Afterlife didn't go around killing dragons <2min after spawn.

[khanable]

Yes. Long variance was necessary under the old rules. Since trackers cannot fte anymore, and people can't park past the zone in, it's entirely unnecessary now. Definitely not 16 hours of variance at least.

++

[Daldaen]

So Cucumbers, Hitpoint and I all agree variance should be removed.

Let's see this happen.

Mob timers will shift because Class R will inevitably take longer to kill their mobs, so you need not fear a Perma 3AM spawn time. Even without patches, they will shift around. So that's a non concern.

[Loadsamoney]

This is why most games after EQ adopted the instance system, so everyone could have a shot at raid bosses and not have to fight other guilds for the right.

[skipdog]

1-2 guilds dominated each server because that's all the high level players that server had. TMO/IB would be "world 1st" style guilds in comparison to Classic guilds and the BDAs, Takens and Divinitys would be the top of their respective servers. Even Afterlife didn't go around killing dragons <2min after spawn.

Do you think I don't understand this? The point is, 'classic' is 1-2 guilds dominating the content. Why come to this server wanting to experience classic everquest, if you don't want a classic raiding experience where there are no instances and only 1-2 guilds get to kill the majority of top content? Again, if class R guilds just want to 'experience the content', they can go make level 60s on a different EMU server and do it. They can kill these monsters on the beta server. The options for these players are endless! Otherwise, put in more work(which is everything from leveling many 60s, to parking buffed toons, to recruiting better than the rest, etc) than the other guilds.

We would all stop caring about killing these monsters if scarcity wasn't an issue and everything was instanced. You guys clearly only care because killing them is such a rare and difficult thing. If we all had 'raid tokens' to spawn mobs or anything like that, people wouldn't stay on this box for long. Imagine how boring this would be if this server was like WoW, and everybody is geared up in BiS gear in a couple months. It wouldn't be everquest and the desire for so many of us to play would vanish very quickly.

[khanable]

So Cucumbers, Hitpoint and I all agree variance should be removed.

Let's see this happen.

Heh just because three of us think something is a relic of the past doesn't necessarily mean it should go away. I for one didn't raid when variance was first introduced, so I can't sit here and say I have an unbiased opinion on it; it's obviously biased since all I've experienced is variance.

Also, I predominately want it to go away simply because it's not classic.

Which is good enough reason to me :D

[Ravager]

If we all had 'raid tokens' to spawn mobs or anything like that, people wouldn't stay on this box for long. Imagine how boring this would be if this server was like WoW, and everybody is geared up in BiS gear in a couple months. It wouldn't be everquest and the desire for so many of us to play would vanish very quickly.

The hardcore crowd would quit, casual population would double. History showed that when the population went from a peak of 500 to a peak of 1000 from one summer to the next after the raid content was opened up. It really wouldn't hurt the server if a few more Zeelot caliber neckbeards got angry and quit.

Also, this game is old hat. Everyone knows everything. There is nothing fresh about this server and we still play here anyway. Making a few high end pixels more accessible to everyone isn't going to drive them to quit a game they already beat a decade and a half ago. If anything, they'll play more because they won't burn themselves out playing against greedy people.

[Loadsamoney]

There's more to this game than loot pixels.

[falkun]

So you agree that world first guilds did not kill mobs <2min after spawn and then claim that P99's raid scene is classic in the same post.

As far as experiencing content, last I checked Beta is Velious only, so there goes that argument.

As Ravager pointed out, the server population increased when the raid changes were implemented, so the silent majority showed through their actions they think the competition level of this server is beyond retarded. So many play because they don't have to deal with the bullshit, that's why server population is up year over year after the changes.

In the same way you incorrectly state R can go to other servers to experience the content, C can go to other servers to get their shadenfreude. But they think competition is "who can weave more elaborate trains in VP to pull the dragon" than "turning their 30-man raid around and attacking the 30-man raid next to them." If you get your joy from beating other players, why do you play on a server where you can't beat on other players?

[skipdog]

As far as experiencing content, last I checked Beta is Velious only, so there goes that argument.

didn't realize that... last time i hopped on i was in oasis, so figured all zones were open.. my bad.

BUT... lol, theres so many emu servers that any guild can play on to kill ANY of the content here..

[Ravager]

didn't realize that... last time i hopped on i was in oasis, so figured all zones were open.. my bad.

BUT... lol, theres so many emu servers that any guild can play on to kill ANY of the content here..

And one specifically with the same content that was made for the competition the top guilds here claim to want...

[falkun]

You must realize there's two servers that have the content anywhere remotely resembling "classic", P99 & R99. So those of us here to "experience the content" play on blue. If we wanted "competition" we'd play on red. Why do you want competition and play on blue? Blue is for "experiencing the content", not "beating another player".

[Man0warr]

BUT... lol, theres so many emu servers that any guild can play on to kill ANY of the content here..

No, there aren't any other EMU servers that as accurately depict classic EQ raiding than Project 1999.

[Oakengroves]

How to fix most raid disputes on Project 1999:

(1) Release Velious [keep up that hard work, gentlemen];

(2) Solicit donations to support another server;

(3) Convert current blue to R-Blue [no variance, enforced rotation];

(4) Make new C-Blue sever [no variance, no rotation, relaxed play nice policy];

(5) Offer a one-time, non-reversible character copy/transfers to C-Blue for those interested in "competition;" and

(6) C-blue will probably close down after a few months due to minimal population [allowing a return to original operating costs].

Some people, for whatever reason, love poopsocking and the thrill of "competition." This is a pretty small minority in the scheme of things. Most people enjoy playing a nostalgic, well-made game and focusing on having fun. This is the vast majority of players.

This is a classic proposal and will help promote classic gameplay. It will ensure that people do not get burned out from poopsocking and non-classic, strange raid mechanics that only exist here, such as 2 minute dragon kills, COTH tracking, COTH ducking, etc.

There were rotation servers on live, and there were competitive servers dominated by one guild. Give players the choice.

/thread

[skipdog]

You must realize there's two servers that have the content anywhere remotely resembling "classic", P99 & R99. So those of us here to "experience the content" play on blue. If we wanted "competition" we'd play on red. Why do you want competition and play on blue? Blue is for "experiencing the content", not "beating another player".

Huh? Do you seriously believe there are not other emu servers where you can kill VP dragons with kunark-era gear/abilities? You can even go on live and easily institute 'kunark-era only class/gear/spells' and kill VP dragons to your heart's content.

[Ravager]

Huh? Do you seriously believe there are not other emu servers where you can kill VP dragons with kunark-era gear/abilities? You can even go on live and easily institute 'kunark-era only class/gear/spells' and kill VP dragons to your heart's content.

When was the last time you were on Live? If this were true, there would be no need for this server.

[falkun]

You can even go on live and easily institute 'kunark-era only class/gear/spells' and kill VP dragons to your heart's content.

Since this is approaching Alarti levels of troll, I'll use his favorite line: Prove it. Make sure you are also easily instituting kunark-era combat tables, because those matter too.

[Raev]

Huh? Do you seriously believe there are not other emu servers where you can kill VP dragons with kunark-era gear/abilities? You can even go on live and easily institute 'kunark-era only class/gear/spells' and kill VP dragons to your heart's content.

http://static3.beanscdn.co.uk/modules/SbPicture/picture/cat-control-1.jpg

(or maybe I will fail at image linking again)

[skipdog]

When was the last time you were on Live? If this were true, there would be no need for this server.

Wow, you are really more dense then I even thought possible. I'm just trying to point out that 'just wanting to experience content' is not why you guys want to kill this stuff. It's a bullshit reason. If these mobs and what these mobs dropped were not scarce, we would not care about killing them. If we had instances, and could kill all these raid mobs as much as we wanted, we'd all be fully geared in a few months and this server would be a ghost town. These aren't 'thrilling, difficult, wow-like raid encounters', they are 'put on resist gear, CH rotation on tank, kill it in 30 seconds' raid mobs. There would be no accomplishment for killing them if it was a normal, weekly, instanced, expected thing. The accomplishment is an accomplishment because the demand is so high and so few get to kill them on a regular basis. BDA gets thrilled when they kill raid targets because 'omg we just killed this dragon that we rarely get to kill!!', not because 'omg we killed this same dragon for the 40th week in a row!' Nobody is thrilled when they kill sky bosses. It's a normal thing that we all do. There is no excitement. Why not keep some targets in high-demand to actually create excitement when they are killed? Like classic everquest?

Sorry, I just have too much fun arguing with BDA members. It's just too hilarious to see you guys and others still whining for more welfare mobs after earthquakes and the class rotations were added, giving all these class R guilds lots of monsters they'd never kill before.

[skipdog]

Since this is approaching Alarti levels of troll, I'll use his favorite line: Prove it. Make sure you are also easily instituting kunark-era combat tables, because those matter too.

Did I say it was a perfect representation? Nope. I'm aware of all the differences. A guild can still gimp their characters intentionally pretty easily to get close to emulating the experience. Just saying, that if you just want to 'see a dragon and experience slaying it', you can do that. There are progression guilds that play on Live that do exactly that. My only point is to show you that, nobody wants to kill a VP dragon on some other server.

[falkun]

You aren't experiencing the content if you have OP combat tables (even if you could shoe-horn yourself into era-appropriate gear, spells, and zones). So if I want to get my epic with era-appropriate gear/spells/NPCs/combat tables, I have to play on blue or red. Since red is about competition, I play on blue. Why do you play on blue if you want competition?

You have blatantly ignored the question and kept spewing the troll about being able to obtain "classic" in other locations than P99.

[kaev]

<personal attack and willfully ignorant welfare analogy deleted>

Is that really the best (worst) you've got? How disappointing.

[Ravager]

Wow, you are really more dense then I even thought possible. I'm just trying to point out that 'just wanting to experience content' is not why you guys want to kill this stuff. It's a bullshit reason. If these mobs and what these mobs dropped were not scarce, we would not care about killing them. If we had instances, and could kill all these raid mobs as much as we wanted, we'd all be fully geared in a few months and this server would be a ghost town. These aren't 'thrilling, difficult, wow-like raid encounters', they are 'put on resist gear, CH rotation on tank, kill it in 30 seconds' raid mobs. There would be no accomplishment for killing them if it was a normal, weekly, instanced, expected thing. The accomplishment is an accomplishment because the demand is so high and so few get to kill them on a regular basis. BDA gets thrilled when they kill raid targets because 'omg we just killed this dragon that we rarely get to kill!!', not because 'omg we killed this same dragon for the 40th week in a row!' Nobody is thrilled when they kill sky bosses. It's a normal thing that we all do. There is no excitement. Why not keep some targets in high-demand to actually create excitement when they are killed? Like classic everquest?

Sorry, I just have too much fun arguing with BDA members. It's just too hilarious to see you guys and others still whining for more welfare mobs after earthquakes and the class rotations were added, giving all these class R guilds lots of monsters they'd never kill before.

They're all welfare mobs on a free server. Some are just better at sharing than others.

[skipdog]

You aren't experiencing the content if you have OP combat tables (even if you could shoe-horn yourself into era-appropriate gear, spells, and zones). So if I want to get my epic with era-appropriate gear/spells/NPCs/combat tables, I have to play on blue or red. Since red is about competition, I play on blue. Why do you play on blue if you want competition?

You have blatantly ignored the question and kept spewing the troll about being able to obtain "classic" in other locations than P99.

I play on blue for a classic everquest pve experience, which involves competing with other characters and guilds to kill monsters. It involves non-instanced content that others guilds have the ability to dominate, like in classic everquest. I play on blue because I expect there to be 1-2 top guilds, who dominate most of the raid content, like it was in the classic era.

You've been spewing that 'Why do you play on blue if you want competition?' line for years and it is pretty hilarious. I play on blue because I don't want to pvp, I want to compete with others players in the killing of AI monsters like I did back in 1999.

[skipdog]

Is that really the best (worst) you've got? How disappointing.

I like how your arguments against mine have involved linking a meme that tells me to stop posting and THIS. Pretty convincing. At least I'm engaging in an actual discussion peppered with some personal jabs to keep things interesting! Who wouldn't be entertained by this last page of posts? It's quality forum reading and I'm contributing that to the community.

[falkun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player
Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants.[1] This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE). The terms are most often used in games where both activities exist,[2] particularly MMORPGs, MUDs, and other role-playing video games.

I play on blue for a classic everquest pve experience, which involves competing with other characters and guilds to kill monsters. It involves non-instanced content that others guilds have the ability to dominate, like in classic everquest. I play on blue because I expect there to be 1-2 top guilds, who dominate most of the raid content, like it was in the classic era.

You've been spewing that 'Why do you play on blue if you want competition?' line for years and it is pretty hilarious. I play on blue because I don't want to pvp, I want to compete with others players in the killing of AI monsters like I did back in 1999.

Killing AI monsters is an interactive conflict, if you get the monster, I don't. Since we are two live participants, it is by definition PVP. Regardless of how much damage each combatant does to one another, if we compete in any fashion, we are PVPing. Think Arathi Basin in WoW...both teams could theoretically never attack one another, but as soon as one side caps their resources, the other side loses. That is a form of PVP without any direct combat between parties. Conflict for resources is PVP if the conflict is between two live participants.

[Erati]

how butthurt is Skipdog that some of these mobs are rotated lol

yes some people wanted to 'just experience the content' well what you are ommitting is that they 'just wanted to experience the content' with their characters they spent months/years building, the friends they have gathered on their journey as well as the guild they grew up in

The server's raid mobs were literally cockblocked for nearly 3 years!!!!!!!

So yes, probably the most dense argument possible is 'you can experience this content many places, so why ruin MY gameplay via raid rules', what you forget is that its not just the content they wanted to experience, its experiencing that content with their P99 characters!!!

[Daldaen]

#RemoveVariance #NotClassic #DownWith16HourWallStaring #MoreCompetition
#KeepNoPoopsockRules #Foot/MageRace #NoCotHDucking

[falkun]

So yes, probably the most dense argument possible is 'you can experience this content many places, so why ruin MY gameplay via raid rules', what you forget is that its not just the content they wanted to experience, its experiencing that content with their P99 characters!!!

Argument's moot, as bizyhap can claim the same thing.

[Raev]

Raev != Kaev

I posted this because you simply don't seem to understand that this is a classic mechanics server, not a classic feel server. With the exception of variance, for which there is no good reason.

Also, posts along the lines "OH GOD THE EXISTENCE OF TMO MAKES MY LIFE COMPLETE" raise nuthugging to a level I would not have thought possible.

[Erati]

Argument's moot, as bizyhap can claim the same thing.

well if he was a part of the initial cockblock he WAS experiencing the content

its just really dumb to look down on people's desire to experience P99's content by telling them

"dewd, those draguns are all over other EMU's n live, go try them there if thats what you want. Dont ruin my box!'

Like I said in my response, its the fact they wanted to experience the content HERE which they have every right to want, and no it should not REQUIRE the insane amount of work that Class C members are forced to put in.

This is why I am very thankful for our raid changes, it really has made this server something for everyone