Spell Caps and Resist on Patch

[Burgerking]

So I tested some spells on beta and these were my findings

Cold and Fire from 10 out of 10 nukes

at 60 Cold/Fire:

8 of the nukes partial-ed for 60 to 80% less of total dmg

1 landed for full

1 was full resisted

At 90 Cold/Fire 5 out of 5 nukes:

All five fully resisted

This was tested using multiple spells all with no resist modifier

Results=/Facepalm

Basically the threshold for full resists is set way too low. You have to take into account that there has been 3 years of kunark not 9 months like on live. And the fact that 90% of the 60 population is loaded with dragon loots.

Then take into account the fact velious introduces blue diamond jewelry and ton of other resist gear.

If you release the patch with 90 being the necessary amount of fire/cold/poison etc for full resists when the average player has 120-140 and then factor in velious gear, then this patch will have essentially nerfed all casters out of pvp. Your lowest threshold for full resists 5 out of 5 should be 120-140 not 90 lol.
When you factor in velious gear lol it should prolly be 150-180.

If you roll this patch out as is, then melee dmg will be the only dmg, and every player will be immune to all spells even with resist debuffs except for lure/lifetap.

Doesn't sound like a lot of fun in pvp when spells are all for pve only.

[Haynar]

Your data sounds like you used a low level nuke.

Your results are lacking.

H

[Haynar]

PS. Resist adjusts are on a per spell basis. Higher level spells are harder to resist. And I am using the pvp resist mods. Not the base resist mod. Thats for pve.

Duration of expansions being out is not a consideration. If your target has really good gear, debuff the crap out of them.

H

[Burgerking]

PS. Resist adjusts are on a per spell basis. Higher level spells are harder to resist. And I am using the pvp resist mods. Not the base resist mod. Thats for pve.

Duration of expansions being out is not a consideration. If your target has really good gear, debuff the crap out of them.

H

Then that's incorrect because the lvl of the spell should not matter when it comes to nukes just the lvl of the player and the lvl of the opposing player being nuked.

On live a Wildfire did not land any better than a Scoriae and if that's the way it's set then you got a big problem on your hands. Spells with - resist mods set on them landed better but a lvl 60 nuke did not land any better in pvp than a 54 nuke.

And that goes for all spells, shock of lightning a lvl 12 nuke landed like a lure on live during velios, same with enc Chaotic feeback and Mage shock of blades a lvl 8 nuke. As well as necro's poison bolt a lvl 4 dot.(this one didnt land as good as the other 3 but it landed a lot better than bane of nife or envenomed bolt that's for sure).

People used these spells for the knockback effect to cause spell interruption. They landed in velious era almost as well as lures and were used on a daily basis. They were an important part of skill based pvp.

You cant have nukes coded on lvl of nuke set for resists, different nukes were used for different things but even low lvl nukes served an important role in pvp.

[Burgerking]

PS. Resist adjusts are on a per spell basis. Higher level spells are harder to resist. And I am using the pvp resist mods. Not the base resist mod. Thats for pve.

Duration of expansions being out is not a consideration. If your target has really good gear, debuff the crap out of them.

H

What do you mean Debuff the crap out of them there's only two resist debuffs, Necro scent line, and Mage/Shaman malo/mala line which don't stack. Scent and malo/mala should stack but if we need a necro and shaman/mage combo just to land spells on people then that's gonna be a huge problem.

You have the average threshold for full resists set so far below the average player's gear that no debuff is gonna help. Malo drops resists by 55 as you have it set a player only needs 100 fire/cold to resist every spell.

I just tested Ice strike highest lvl shaman nuke with malo 5 out of 5 were resisted with 100 cold. The average player in velious gonna be rocking 180 cold with blue diamond gear, day 1.

[Bazia]

sounds classic praise haynar

wearing FR/CR resists in every single fucking slot is not classic

[Haynar]

Dispell any resist buffs. Use your highest debuffs. Debuffs have a hidden bonus to how much they lower resists to make them more useful.

Stock up on pumice.

H

[Burgerking]

sounds classic praise haynar

wearing FR/CR resists in every single fucking slot is not classic

So your saying demetia landing better than chaotic feedback is classic??

Your saying getting full resists on draught 5 out 5 casts with 100 FR is classic?

Were you playing a different game than me?

Here's the rundown on one of the lowest resist gear classes in the game Iksar Monk

Range: 30 FR/CR
Hands: White Satin 30 FR -5 CR
Diamond Rings: 14 ALL
Base Resists: 30 FR 20 CR

That's 4 slots that more monks have than don't at lvl 60 on red, 4 slots making a monk totally immune to every fire spell but a lure. LOL that's classic? Not even counting a single blue diamond piece of gear, Frog crown or buffs diamond mask etc lol. No i actually pvp'd 8 hours a day on live you did not so easily attain fire immunity.

LOL Pumice ain't gonna help you can't dispel gear.

But go ahead roll the patch out like this, retire every caster in the game in pvp and watch pvp bugs FLOOD with more threads then you've ever seen before. You're gonna be swimming in threads in 2 weeks after you drop this patch.

[Potus]

sounds classic praise haynar

wearing FR/CR resists in every single fucking slot is not classic

Haynar good guy, love him. And yeah I didn't wear a ton of FR/CR on live, it was mostly Hitpoints/MR.

[Burgerking]

Haynar good guy, love him. And yeah I didn't wear a ton of FR/CR on live, it was mostly Hitpoints/MR.

The average player is gonna have full blue diamond/diamond if you don't you don't belong in pvp. 300 HP's not gonna help when sunstrikes landing on you for full.

Melee's are gonna become untouchable gods next patch, easily able to max HP's with max resists.

[Burgerking]

Sunstrike 10 out of 10 casts vs 100 Fire

9 fully resisted

1 landed for 275 dmg

Sunstrike has a built in -10 modifer that's means a caster would go oom vs anyone with 90 fire unless they switched to lures.

[Burgerking]

Draught of fire/cold vs 100 fire/cold

10 out of 10 casts

fully resisted 10 times

Both spells have -10 modifier built in so 90 fr/cr which is less than the average of a fully stripped character at lvl 60. That's total FR/CR immunity at 90 vs anything but a lvl 60 spell which will partial once out of ten times for around 25% full dmg.

[Colgate]

what monk have you even seen wear white satin gloves??

r u high?

[Burgerking]

what monk have you even seen wear white satin gloves??

r u high?

I was giving an example of how you can get 90 fr with 4 slots, are you saying that on live 90 Fr gave you full fire immunity?

I know every monk gonna be wearing full blue diamond/diamond and you know it which means they will be full fire immune at 90 FR.

You guys need to stop bullshiting just because it benefits the class you're gonna play. You know on live nobody was running around fully immune to draughts/scoraie at 90 fire cmon!

My shaman in great shape next patch but i'm not gonna lie and say this is anything close to classic just because my class will be good.

And yea i am high but I'm always high and still 100% correct about everything.

[Haynar]

I thought i had sunstrike tuned higher. Will look at it tomorrow and double check.

H

[Burgerking]

I thought i had sunstrike tuned higher. Will look at it tomorrow and double check.

H

You gotta understand I'm trying to shoot you straight here, Kecleon and Colgate my guildmates these are my dawgs. But I gotta call Bullshit because they trying to skew the numbers in favor of the classes they play.

I just tested Enchanter

10 out of 10 Dementia vs 100 MR NO TASH!

only 8 out of 10 partial-ed the rest landed for full.

So you got MR set 100% perfect, but fire and cold you got set way too low. You can't let melee's have fire cold set so low for full immunity. That lets them bone up on HP gear and that makes them pretty much un-killable to casters, they will go OOM before anyone dents they're life.

You can check the boards from Sullon in velious era there would not be so many wizards and druids ranked so high if all there spells were fully resisted so easily. Wizards didn't have to switch to full lures until luclin(of course it wasnt until luclin that most players had endgame velious) and druids were rolling around sorcaie'ing people. A druid would never get a kill if they could only land winged death.

[Colgate]

i've also been a huge advocate of nerfing melee hitrate, nerfing melee damage, buffing AC, nerfing melee hitbox range, etc.

haynar's changes feel classic to me

[Burgerking]

i've also been a huge advocate of nerfing melee hitrate, nerfing melee damage, buffing AC, nerfing melee hitbox range, etc.

haynar's changes feel classic to me

90 for full resists for all fire is far from classic, you know you didn't need only 90 fire to resist every fire spell. Cmon!

HTF were there so many druids ranked in the top 50 on sullon, you think they all winged death'd people to the ground. Even in classic pre kunark people could easily hit 90 fire.

[Potus]

The average player is gonna have full blue diamond/diamond if you don't you don't belong in pvp. 300 HP's not gonna help when sunstrikes landing on you for full.

Melee's are gonna become untouchable gods next patch, easily able to max HP's with max resists.

Wait what? I was talking about on live.

[Burgerking]

Wait what? I was talking about on live.

On live not everyone had bags of blue diamonds waiting for velious release to make them into bracers, and some with earrings already made.

On live Velious released 9 months after kunark, and most weren't done with kunark content when Velious released. You can't compare 3 years of kunark like it's the same as 9 months of kunark.

BECAUSE HERE, everyone will be full blue diamond day one.

[Nirgon]

90 range should give you some partials

130+ should be nigh immunity


item loot is a good thing :)

[Daldaen]

Blue Diamond combines aren't enabled until 1 month into Velious. Just an FYI.

[Burgerking]

90 range should give you some partials

130+ should be nigh immunity


item loot is a good thing :)

Exactly what I've been saying, 130 is right for live, 90 too low for velious era. Personally I think after 3 years of kunark it should be set higher than 130 due to the gear ratio here.

But it's obvious i'm not getting through to anyone with logic.

[Nirgon]

Alright well we agree on that, Haynar is a big boss when it comes to tackling such things and thanks for testing

Try please, thank you and general high priest worship

He comes through just give him some space u kno?

[Burgerking]

Alright well we agree on that, Haynar is a big boss when it comes to tackling such things and thanks for testing

Try please, thank you and general high priest worship

He comes through just give him some space u kno?

None of this is Haynar's fault he got handed a very broken slinky is doing his best to try it get to go down the stairs. I'm just pointing out whats still off.

[Nirgon]

luckily for you as a shaman you can stack diseases like a pimp and "lure of draught of ice" and "lure of wildfire" will be non issues for you when this drops :)

[Haynar]

The curve used for MR, I shifted it up 30 resist for FR and CR. Should give what u are describing.

Coming on Friday prolly. Thats when big patch is going out.

H

[Nirgon]

pls god have hitbox adjustment and no los/z-axis for pvp detrimental casting indoors or outdoors


o pls o pls o pls

[Haynar]

I did not mess with los/z checks.

I did fixes for hitbox size.

H

[Nirgon]

too late to get los check removal in?

thought it got added :/ just some if target is player / else logic? Or making detrimental do the same type of check as a heal? Was hoping it'd be small. I'm probably wrong but excited for patch.

[Colgate]

"big patch" for velious beta or for red/blue or both?

[Bazia]

8 out of 10 dementia's landing on 100 MR for full

This has to be a troll

[Haynar]

"big patch" for velious beta or for red/blue or both?
I dunno.

Log in after patch and see.

H

[Infectious]

Lol enchanters nukes landing on ajything over 120 mr is a joke. Anything over 120 should be a partial/resist. Roots should also do a resist check every couple of secs and not last full duration unless you have 80 mr or less.

Gms should throw a pvp event on beta to test this shit. Atleast 2 groups. Winning side can get something dumb like 1 charge illusion pots, food with stats and such.

[Burgerking]

8 out of 10 dementia's landing on 100 MR for full

This has to be a troll

Test it yourself almost killed myself trying it 8 out of 10 landed for full.

[Burgerking]

Lol enchanters nukes landing on ajything over 120 mr is a joke. Anything over 120 should be a partial/resist. Roots should also do a resist check every couple of secs and not last full duration unless you have 80 mr or less.

Gms should throw a pvp event on beta to test this shit. Atleast 2 groups. Winning side can get something dumb like 1 charge illusion pots, food with stats and such.

Roots didn't get a resist check every few secs they got a resist check with dmg.

[Burgerking]

The curve used for MR, I shifted it up 30 resist for FR and CR. Should give what u are describing.

Coming on Friday prolly. Thats when big patch is going out.

H

Thanks bro good work that's a lot better. The only thing is the nukes though. They shouldn't be landing vs lvl of nuke, but only factor level of player. I'm sure someone can back me up on this one.

[Bazia]

Lol enchanters nukes landing on ajything over 120 mr is a joke. Anything over 120 should be a partial/resist. Roots should also do a resist check every couple of secs and not last full duration unless you have 80 mr or less.

Gms should throw a pvp event on beta to test this shit. Atleast 2 groups. Winning side can get something dumb like 1 charge illusion pots, food with stats and such.

dont worry about enc nukes they get full resist on almost anyone with even decent gear

[Infectious]

Roots didn't get a resist check every few secs they got a resist check with dmg.
So root lasted full duration unless the person/mob was nuked or hit? You just lost credibility.

[Burgerking]

So root lasted full duration unless the person/mob was nuked or hit? You just lost credibility.

So root lasted full duration unless the person/mob was nuked or hit? You just lost credibility.

Ok let's do the root talk, didn't want to get into root but ok. Currently root doesn't land without debuff's against anyone with descent gear, and pvp here has degraded into 90% of the server fighting 2 steps from a zoneline infront of KC. Currently root breaks based off dmg 20% of the dmg dealt is the root check But you want root nerfed to classic lvl's which would mean 20% 40% 60% 80% duration of root checks and dmg checks for root. For something you could pumice off when 99% of the server has 125+ mr and only has 2% chance to be rooted without debuffs.

Personally I think sticking to classic coding timeline when you aren't sticking to classic expansion timeline release is utter lunacy.

But then there is the further question of, do you code root passed on the way verant intended? Which was root and snare stacking. Because that change didn't come into effect until 2001. But it was a bug so they never intended root to work that way.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2001-1.html

Personally I don't think root should be nerfed to the point that everyone breaks out right away, because quite frankily on a red server when everyone rushes to Zoneline at the first hint of pvp root is your last chance of getting a kill. And that chance fails a lot more than it succeeds, 98% more to be exact.

[Nirgon]

Enchanter pbaoe line was landing reliably at 120ish MR... which will be bad. It should be basically resisted every time at 70mr+.. same with fetter its doing the same thing. 120 looks pretty reliable... 159 it cuts off. Both spell lines need to be dialed way back.


159 MR however, I see everything stops landing... so maybe dial stuns/roots back down by -90 and we're good.

I mean think about it in pvp... how strong a potentially 9 second stun or root is (you die in mass pvp)

[slizzy]

Question, all of you reporting that chanter shit is landing. Were you tashed? If so, H reported that the double debuff is server side only and not showing up on the UI.

For nirgon's example, he was as ~120. If you were tashed then your at ~120 examples puts you at ~80ish, which should be in the 'landable' window.

It's all about the double debuff not showing up on the client I think that is skewing your results if you are looking at chanters spells landing.

Post 50 on this thread (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173117&page=5)

[Nirgon]

I'm giving the actual value when the spells landed not tashed

I got tash cured off me from Hamburgler in my testing :)

Rains are hitting all targets in area of effect 3x which is very goog.


Blind/root/stuns need to be dialed way down regardless of how high a level spell it is.

The heart of the resist issue from before was needing like 180 magic to reliably resist root here. 90 mr for any root spell should make it never hit, same with blind, same with stun.

Rest is well on the right track. I think bards are unresistable atm tho.

[Nirgon]

Blind (eye of confusion) and whirl (dyn's draught) very reliable at 100mr... color slant too.

Whirl should be resisted every single time... at ... call it 30 MR lol.

Blind lets call it 50.

If you can't do this before patch day, I'd hold off. Whirl/blind spam very bad. CC spells should be exempt from the level scaling mechanic for players.


Proposed "immunity" cheat sheet:
whirl line : 30 mr immune
blind line: 50 mr immune
root line: 70 mr immune
rains: 90ish resistances immune.... mostly resists from 50-90, pretty reliable 25-50
stuns: 60 mr immune (I had my markar's discord land on 108MR reliably... dis can't happen, same with high level cleric stuns... 8 second stun and 502pvp dmg on markar's heh)

Rest looks fine as far as I can test.


That said a LOT of other things are fixed and thank you!

[Pudge]

my god the whine.

nirgon. not even reading this whole thread, just the last page...... you know stuns don't land for 8 seconds on r99. max stun is capped at ~2 secs other than tstaff. all those resist numbers should be bumped up by at least 30. and now apparently immune means 0% chance whatsoever...

also the era of EQ (which expansion we were at) always affected resist rates. that shit just wasn't published in patch notes (resists got changed around a lot, within eras as well).

[Nirgon]

Take it or leave it

Whirl/stun/blind/root spam ruins pvp

See you in Thurgadin

[Crazycloud]

pudge who you think will win the war with these types of ressist? The zerg or non zerg? Making those spells not land 100 % of the time increases the chances of non zerg winning.

[Colgate]

nirgon. not even reading this whole thread, just the last page...... you know stuns don't land for 8 seconds on r99. max stun is capped at ~2 secs other than tstaff.

alecta capped stuns at 4 seconds i'm pretty sure, with bard stuns getting amplified by epic so they ended up lasting 6-8 seconds usually

you don't actually play here though

so why even comment?

[Haynar]

I was thinking 60/80/100. For immunity to whirl, stun, root.

H

[Haynar]

Maybe 50/70/90.

50 for whirl/stun

70 for blind/mez

90 for root.

H

[slizzy]

This is already meleequest. Everybody has 100+ in almost all resists at high end wth 180-200 MR already so please just delete this entire tread along with all non wizards casters from the game.

P99 red is already all monks, rogues and warriors. Immunity with such low caps and you will force the 5 percent of the population that is non monk/warrior/rogue to either quit or roll the for mentioned classes.

With SoV, everybody will be sporting 150-200 in all resists before buffs with MR capped at 225+. Please tell me how anybody will land anything with such absurdly low immunity caps without lures.

[Colgate]

This is already meleequest. Everybody has 100+ in almost all resists at high end wth 180-200 MR already so please just delete this entire tread along with all non wizards casters from the game.

P99 red is already all monks, rogues and warriors. Immunity with such low caps and you will force the 5 percent of the population that is non monk/warrior/rogue to either quit or roll the for mentioned classes.

With SoV, everybody will be sporting 150-200 in all resists before buffs with MR capped at 225+. Please tell me how anybody will land anything with such absurdly low immunity caps without lures.

classic everquest dawg

[Colgate]

Maybe 50/70/90.

50 for whirl/stun

70 for blind/mez

90 for root.

H

this sounds pretty good

we need to also make sure certain spells like shock of lightning, chaotic feedback, poison bolt, etc. land a majority of the time in the spirit of classic

[slizzy]

There is classic and there is playable. When literally the top 100+ of the server are BIS or close enough to BIS, you have to rework your classic argument. On a 200-300 pop server, that is totally skewed and should be addressed.

Honestly it's the gear inflation that should force the bell curve of resists much higher then 'classic'. Lets just look at the guilds:
AZ - BIS or near BIS
GW - BIS or near BIS
Holo - If you are 60 you are prob BIS or near BIS

That leaves the new 60's and the up and comers which are in the minority. I'm all for classic but right now the game is totally skewed to melee and spell immunity that is so easily reached doesn't help.

Compound the fact that all non lures are pretty much going to be resisted or do such silly low damage, along with the 1/3 damage already take right off the top.

Will tstaff and windstriker also get the same 90mr to be immune? How is it different to 100-0 someone in a tstaff proc any different then snared/rooted/stun from a caster?

[Technique]

Maybe 50/70/90.Assuming the current 2x debuffs, Malosini (-120) + Wind of Tish (-80) still wouldn't put a resist-capped player below the immunity threshold for stuns.

[Haynar]

Assuming the current 2x debuffs, Malosini (-120) + Wind of Tish (-80) still wouldn't put a resist-capped player below the immunity threshold for stuns.
Still not sure I see the value of CC type spells in a PvP environment? Is the purpose to ensure a win, and that they cannot fight back? Or to make raids wipe, due to interrupting with an AE stun/mez?

If we cater to everyone having BiS, then what is the point? That was EQs downfall, that it catered almost entirely to the end game.

[slizzy]

I'm just trying to reverse the meleecraft. I spent all of 2 minutes brainstorming how to help casters and some of the below would go a long ways....

--Make tstaff/wind striker resistable like all other cc's based on resists

--drop the 1/3 spell damage penalty

--give a blanket 10-20 percent chance to allow all spells to hit regardless of resist. How is
this different the playing the odds on a tstaff/windstriker proc?

--get rid of the absurd channeling breaks on all melee hits

--fix spells like chaotic feedback and other commonly used classic spells

shammies and chanters are pretty rare in pvp already and having both in small group pvp just doesn't happen. Sure, having both stack is gonna destroy someone.

I don't want this to be CCquest but having such low resists to negate all cc and partial all damage spells just plays into the already lopsided melee meta.

[alaiwy0503]

Still not sure I see the value of CC type spells in a PvP environment? Is the purpose to ensure a win, and that they cannot fight back? Or to make raids wipe, due to interrupting with an AE stun/mez?

If we cater to everyone having BiS, then what is the point? That was EQs downfall, that it catered almost entirely to the end game.

Cc is the #1 most important line to get right in any game with pvp... Period. Being able to lock a high risk player out of a fight is the #1 priority in any pvp situation. Lock the healer out and burn down the threat. Or lock the threat down and burn down the healer(s).

The thing I'm concerned about is that it sounds like we're guessing a lot. "root immunity should be 90, no wait. 100 should be root immunity." do we really have nothing more concrete than a "I remember it on live like this" and another person saying their perception was different?

Edit: most recent mmos address this by doing diminishing returns where a stun lasts full length on first cast then half the time second and half still after that then is immune for a period after that. Eq has no DR so if things aren't right it completely ruins pvp.

[alaiwy0503]

Another concern with people's perceptions are that they are very dependent on what server they played on. For instance. On rallos zek people will remember that people with some of the better gear weren't 100% immune to root etc but that's because people couldn't wear all their gear. So those people will remember what "good gear" was like differently than those from one of the other non item loot servers. People on rz didn't run round in all their gear and therefore the average person resists were much lower. Perceptions are a terrible way to go about this as they will all be based on a jaded version of the truth.

Now fast forward to 2014 when people's perception of "good gear" is based on p1999 and both of the live perceptions are way off because the average level 60 has way better gear here than the average on live because of how long people have been farming things on this server.

[slizzy]

every other mmo doesn't negate caster damage and cc either just because you have great gear.

I fully understand that casters are powerful early in a game and melee take over the end game. It doesn't mean that melee gets to have 100 percent immunity to all spells due to gear either but that is they way it is going to be when 120-140 fr/cr will negate a druid and force a wizards into 400-600pt lures. Once melee start running around with double/triple their current hp, those lures are going to be nothing more then an annoyance.

Dim returns aren't going to happen but at least give the CC a chance to land and not outright immunity at sub 100Mr, the silliest stat to raise. Even crappy geared people can get decent enough MR without being BIS to immune all CC...

AA's helped balance out the PVP for casters A LOT but those aren't going to ever be implemented. I know pre Kunark, it was casterquest but Kunark turned the game into meleequest and SoV double/triples down on melee's. What two classes get the biggest buffs in SoV...monks/sk's.

Toss the casters a bone.

[alaiwy0503]

every other mmo doesn't negate caster damage and cc either just because you have great gear.

I fully understand that casters are powerful early in a game and melee take over the end game. It doesn't mean that melee gets to have 100 percent immunity to all spells due to gear either but that is they way it is going to be when 120-140 fr/cr will negate a druid and force a wizards into 400-600pt lures. Once melee start running around with double/triple their current hp, those lures are going to be nothing more then an annoyance.

Dim returns aren't going to happen but at least give the CC a chance to land and not outright immunity at sub 100Mr, the silliest stat to raise. Even crappy geared people can get decent enough MR without being BIS to immune all CC...

AA's helped balance out the PVP for casters A LOT but those aren't going to ever be implemented. I know pre Kunark, it was casterquest but Kunark turned the game into meleequest and SoV double/triples down on melee's. What two classes get the biggest buffs in SoV...monks/sk's.

Toss the casters a bone.

They are 100% not going to throw bones that weren't classic. And these resists aren't terribly far off whether you like it or not. All I want is to base it as much off fact and not perception.

Also @Haynar When you say root immunity at 100 I assume you mean high chance to resist?

[Bazia]

lure of ice

[Nirgon]

Still not sure I see the value of CC type spells in a PvP environment? Is the purpose to ensure a win, and that they cannot fight back? Or to make raids wipe, due to interrupting with an AE stun/mez?

If we cater to everyone having BiS, then what is the point? That was EQs downfall, that it catered almost entirely to the end game.

If you get rooted, an assist train instantly kills you




50 for whirl


Low level enchanter pvp will be perma whirling people

[slizzy]

yea lure of ice, tickles SoV melee for 495.

Again as if things like tstaff/windstriker, absurd channel negation from simple melee, 1/3 spell damage penalty was bad enough and now you throw on anything but lures being fully to mostly partial resists on 120-140 cr/fr how are casters supposed to survive? At least now you can get a root/cripple on some once they are stripped and tashed but that won't be possible come SoV.

Corner casting and position only gets you so far. I'm sure the hitbox reduction and ac changes will help but if these resists changes go live, they need to seriously review some of the other things like normal melee having a chance to negate a cast.

Why not look into different resist curves for level ranges? Hell, go live with these changes up to lvl 55 and then a new resist curve kicks in. The amount of resists go through the roofs once you start hitting 60 raid gear and destroy's the resist curve.

MMO's shouldn't be a once size fits all level ranges and frankly should always be curved for the end game. This server has been in end game range for years and years which should force a much higher resist curve. Why cater to the sub 55 crowd when most the server is past that or will pass that in a matter of weeks on red.

[alaiwy0503]

yea lure of ice, tickles SoV melee for 495.
MMO's shouldn't be a once size fits all level ranges and frankly should always be curved for the end game. This server has been in end game range for years and years which should force a much higher resist curve. Why cater to the sub 55 crowd when most the server is past that or will pass that in a matter of weeks on red.

This isn't mmos. It's eq. If you want to get anywhere you'll need to provide more evidence other than "I don't like it". Find patch notes that say resists we're lowered to make casters more viable. You won't find it but that's what it would take.

[slizzy]

the melee code is so far from classic (higher then live hit rate, higher then live max hit damage rate, chance to break cast on any melee hit) to just name a few. Tstaff and windstrikers were almost 'artifact' status on live and not meant to be in every monk/ranger's hands. Hell, tstaff/windstriker already breaks small/large scale pvp.

it was never 'classic' to be near spell immune either but nearly all of the current raid force is now with the current patched resists and will be compounded with SoV.

classic is pretty much thrown out the window as an argument at this point. Make it a playable sandbox for us non rogue/warior/monk and SoV sk's.

[Nirgon]

Gotta port around and buff the melees you know..

Oh and cast through walls helps casters a lot.

[Smedy]

i think in over all pvp gameplay will get more fun with a more classic pvp resist sytem, with that in mind we really need to tone down melee hit rate, and damage output, ESPECIALLY for rogue,monk and warrior and perhaps bard (why the fuck is bard hitting me for high 70s every swing in dual weild while i return hits for 26 with a 2hander as a sk lol)

tldr: having root landing in pvp isn't going to benefit anyone in this game.

[Runya]

This isn't mmos. It's eq. If you want to get anywhere you'll need to provide more evidence other than "I don't like it". Find patch notes that say resists we're lowered to make casters more viable. You won't find it but that's what it would take.

Casters were more viable than they are here patch notes or not......Melee didn't insta-smoke you like they do now....I didn't think it was totally lure of ice time til SoV(bd jewelery) but a lot of well geared played at 60 here vs live.The hitbox needed a tweak woulda been nicer if more people tested it.Im not complaining but a GM to witness some of these duels woulda helped this way you can see first hand what needs to be addressed.What I saw....

(1) Melee hitbox reduced.....gl breaking wizard epic skin on a guy who can dance(classic)

(2) Poison/disease lands all day

(3)Enc stun lands.......mod on color slant plus tash increase lands alot....Blinds landing well too

(4)All direct damage(not lure) nukes did like 100-200 damage

Again this was all tested using beta buff toons so gear is BiS....All of this stuff is better than my current set up so hopefully dds will land better here and there for mage/dru sake.Necros/Sks are tough again......interesting

[Runya]

the melee code is so far from classic (higher then live hit rate, higher then live max hit damage rate, chance to break cast on any melee hit) to just name a few. Tstaff and windstrikers were almost 'artifact' status on live and not meant to be in every monk/ranger's hands. Hell, tstaff/windstriker already breaks small/large scale pvp.

it was never 'classic' to be near spell immune either but nearly all of the current raid force is now with the current patched resists and will be compounded with SoV.

classic is pretty much thrown out the window as an argument at this point. Make it a playable sandbox for us non rogue/warior/monk and SoV sk's.

Hard to argue.....I remember the days a wizard could run in and drop a nuke or two...here you just get one rounded....toughest melee I faced in beta was a sk,rogues had to actually take your skin off to kill ya......pras hitbox....people got better....they were the people who fought in nro it will take adjustment.Gonna test some melee more

[Technique]

If we cater to everyone having BiS, then what is the point? That was EQs downfall, that it catered almost entirely to the end game.It's not catering to anyone; it's being mindful of the boundaries of the system you're tuning.
Low level enchanter pvp will be perma whirling peopleThis is a non-issue. Whirl typically lasts only 2-3 seconds, and never longer than a tick.

[Nirgon]

ok whirl spam non issue when its possible got ya

Some of these changes are really close to perfect (not sure if you just got lucky with your plan or really spent way too much time tuning it) just the cc stuff is nonclassic/not good.

[alaiwy0503]

Hard to argue.....I remember the days a wizard could run in and drop a nuke or two...here you just get one rounded....toughest melee I faced in beta was a sk,rogues had to actually take your skin off to kill ya......pras hitbox....people got better....they were the people who fought in nro it will take adjustment.Gonna test some melee more

This isn't an excuse to purposely change things that they know aren't classic. This is a silly argument and Slizzy isn't bringing anything to the table other than bitching. To say "well these other things that they can't get right b/c they don't have the correct live coding aren't right so we may as well make tstaff resistable and make windstriker too. OH and make it so all spells land 10-20% of the time just because" doesn't make sense. The DEVs are trying to make this game as close to live as possible. Some of it is out of their control.

The titanium client changed things and they don't have access to the ORIGINAL source code in order to make the melee/resists etc EXACTLY like it was during live. So they have to pick their battles. Trying to use arguments like Slizzy is sensationalist at the least and ridiculous at the worst.

[slizzy]

Things I spit balled that would help address the current NON classic game we have:
1) different resist curve for high end play(55/56+). This is not classic but neither is having the gear levels we have now coupled with the countless melee issues that were not classic

2) allow chance for all spells to land regardless of type. Sure 20 percent is high but you have to give some chance. You can't just throw out 7/8 of your spell book when you hit 60.

3) bring tstaff/windstriker procs under the CC rules of resistance. You can't argue that Root/snare/stun is groundbreaking yet grant unresistable CC, all be it random. All CC should be viable in some way shape or form. Tstaff/windstrikers were never meant to be as widely available as they are now. Melee play the odds with their CC via procs, casters should be able to play the odds too.

4) what are non lure casters supposed to cast if you can pretty much be spell immune with 140 fr/cr/mr? On beta right now non lure damage spells are landing for 100-200 tops, that is not viable. Shaman/chanters are rare as fook in smaller scale pvp but yes, are available in large scale.

5) address class spells like poison shock and chaotic feedback

Not related to resist changes but are forced to be brought into the discussion due to the impact of the resist changes on casters:
1) melee hit rate absurdly higher then live(classic)
2) max damage hit rate much higher then live
3) chance to break spell casting on every melee hit (not classic)

It has been said that having a low resist curve would break low level pvp. It is said don't cater to the BIS crowd. I can buy that but addressing my first point of a different curve for 55/56 is where the crux of the argument stands. You can't be classic EQ with the current sandbox the devs have built for us thus the server needs to adapt.

The AC changed and hit boxs are big steps going in the right direction. Near complete spell immunity at high end play, not even considering SoV. When is the last time you ever heard anybody say I want to twink a caster out after my main and the answer is pretty obvious why. That isn't healthy.

I have offered ideas here and not just bitching. Stop throwing the 'but it is classic' because this server currently is so far from classic it's not even funny.

[Nirgon]

Low level spells being easier to resist makes pk twinks even worse imo

I'd remove the custom spell interrupts on hit. From my testing with push based (shock of lightning) spells... push is definitely working correctly and very strong as it is.

The chance to hit is bad now... but wait till there's 18 and 20 delay weapons from Velious. Standard PvE channeling rates should apply to both pve and pvp :).

[Burgerking]

What's up with epic mage pet?

The pushback on this thing from hits is insane, set way too high. You cant even get a 1 second cast off. I'm not even exaggerating alil bit. You can't have this thing hit so hard and shut down a caster completely especially when u can't outrun the thing. You guys should try dueling some mages, because they are currently facerolling the keyboard and winning every duel. Not classic. Currently they are the number 1, 1v1 class.

They always were nasty on live but I never had trouble casting a shadow step vs one.

[Nirgon]

The custom interrupt code is really at fault on that one... it does need to go. PvE push is finally correct far as I can see. You're right that not even be able to channel a 1 second shadowstep is way off, I watched some duels with that going on.

epic pet was surely a beast on live and is here except for (and not to make things worse) it needs very high innate MR... like 1 in 3 roots should land.. and most shouldn't hold very long

Save that for another thread tho :)

[Haynar]

What's up with epic mage pet?

The pushback on this thing from hits is insane, set way too high. You cant even get a 1 second cast off. I'm not even exaggerating alil bit. You can't have this thing hit so hard and shut down a caster completely especially when u can't outrun the thing. You guys should try dueling some mages, because they are currently facerolling the keyboard and winning every duel. Not classic. Currently they are the number 1, 1v1 class.

They always were nasty on live but I never had trouble casting a shadow step vs one.
Fortunately, casting charm on a players pet will poof it now.

H

[Burgerking]

The custom interrupt code is really at fault on that one... it does need to go. PvE push is finally correct far as I can see. You're right that not even be able to channel a 1 second shadowstep is way off, I watched some duels with that going on.



I mean on live you knew epic pet was nasty but I never got interrupted by one like this, this pushback is insane.

[Burgerking]

Fortunately, casting charm on a players pet will poof it now.

H

Yea that's classic and it's cool, but the enchanter will never get to use it the way you got pushback set he'll literally die before he can get a tash off.

[Colgate]

haynar, it seems like the changes you made to crippling blow stuns didn't hit the beta; had someone use mighty strike on me, was stunned every hit for ~2 seconds

[Nirgon]

So the outlook from here...

I imagine time is allocated to tweak based on current testing on the beta.
What does it look like you might have time to tweak before the go live? Personally I'd be fine waiting on another week or more of beta if we have to... its so close and worth waiting! Reason I ask is to settle our expectations to what's fair and deliverable... lots of us are very excited and chomping at the bit.


(We'd also love removal of line of sight checks on pvp targets and removal of zaxis check on spells/melee which applies to both pve & pvp!!!)

[Smedy]

The custom interrupt code is really at fault on that one... it does need to go. PvE push is finally correct far as I can see. You're right that not even be able to channel a 1 second shadowstep is way off, I watched some duels with that going on.

epic pet was surely a beast on live and is here except for (and not to make things worse) it needs very high innate MR... like 1 in 3 roots should land.. and most shouldn't hold very long

Save that for another thread tho :)

Ya, shadowstepping or casting spells wasn't ever a problem vs epic pet on live, however most retards didn't dispell it, and it resisted both root and snare most of the time which made it very lethal, but yeah, if it pushes you so hard you can't channel a 1 sec cast, that shit needs a nerf.

[Burgerking]

Ya, shadowstepping or casting spells wasn't ever a problem vs epic pet on live, however most retards didn't dispell it, and it resisted both root and snare most of the time which made it very lethal, but yeah, if it pushes you so hard you can't channel a 1 sec cast, that shit needs a nerf.

Yea ya wanna get the velocity and burnout off that thing so you can manage it but currently it will kill you before you can do anything.

Took me 15 seconds to get off a shadowstep and i was down to 8% life by then.

[Nirgon]

You think that pet hurts, wait for the big ass Velious weps

You think that pet hits so fast you can't do nuthin, wait for Velious weps

Custom chance to interrupt needs 2 go :)

Hope this is recognized as "we need lots of stuff!" and not any impression of you aren't doing enough





Edit/O shit: Did anyone test necro/druid epic clicks in pvp?

[Burgerking]

You think that pet hurts, wait for the big ass Velious weps

You think that pet hits so fast you can't do nuthin, wait for Velious weps

Custom chance to interrupt needs 2 go :)

Hope this is recognized as "we need lots of stuff!" and not any impression of you aren't doing enough

I'm not even bugging Haynar with the little shit atm I'll leave that for later, I'm only reporting the back breaking things. And that pets interrupt ability from pushback is WACK, and that was with no weps equipped don't even wanna think about with weps.

[Technique]

haynar, it seems like the changes you made to crippling blow stuns didn't hit the beta; had someone use mighty strike on me, was stunned every hit for ~2 secondsChanged or not, don't expect it to differ much from Live:
Did some parses.

Stuns were 2 secs.

[...]

All crippling blows caused stuns.

And that pets interrupt ability from pushback is WACK Mage pet attack speed increased, probably as a result of this:


Haynar: Revamped Attack Speed, Double Attack Chance, Dual Wield Chance, based on Torven's data.


Also:


Haynar: Moved player channeling checks based on distance moved to a linear model. This makes it a little more difficult to channel with small moves.

The r99-specific 5% channeling reduction per hit code isn't on beta, though.

[slizzy]

Changed or not, don't expect it to differ much from Live:


Mage pet attack speed increased, probably as a result of this:
Also:
The r99-specific 5% channeling reduction per hit code isn't on beta, though.

Why is the 5 percent per hit even part of the Red still? I thought we were trying to be classic...

This would be one of the 'bones' I would throw out to the casters.

[Haynar]

Why is the 5 percent per hit even part of the Red still? I thought we were trying to be classic...

This would be one of the 'bones' I would throw out to the casters.
I have no clue. I was guessing it was some classic pvp feature. I did not research why it was added.

H

[Nirgon]

The question is then



Can u kill it

[Haynar]

The question is then



Can u kill it

Of course I can.

I spent 3 hrs last night trying to salvage the gamma adjustments and playing with capping resists for spell lines in pvp. Neither have panned out like I wished.

Often hours are spent working on something and doesn't work.

But I do know how to nuke that 5% per hit, and can take it out in less than 5 min.

H

[Nirgon]

The amount of work you have going into this patch is crazy man. I have a hard time asking for another 5 seconds... but I'll take em :)


Pet faster with sow that you can't even shadowstep to escape that can be fixed in 5 seconds sounds like a good trade

Wish we could help more

Dark night time is pimp

[Bazia]

Why are all bard songs and chants landing, I literally fought Flexin 2 days ago and I have been resisting chant of fire and frost almost 100% of the time 150+ FR/CR.

On Beta right now Dibandicus (Bard) couldn't find a song he couldnt land, including the enormous MR debuff/slows/chants/poison stuns/snare it was INSANE.

[Nirgon]

Bards I heard were unresistable in every case... not sure wutdo on that...

bard perma mez on 255mr?

I'm logging in to test necro/druid snare lines (devouring darkness/epic esp)

[Bazia]

This bard shit is a problem, if you go live with that gonna be massive tears lol

and thanks for all the tweaks I'm not complaining I'm just pointing out something that definitely needs to be tweaked ASAP

[Nirgon]

This bard shit is a problem, if you go live with that gonna be bundyquest

Devouring darkness 100% success rate so far at 126mr, I'd put this one and all the other snares in the "root resist" pile

[slizzy]

Nobody has given red this much hope in a long time Haynar. No matter how much we bitch and moan just remember we love you long time!

[Bazia]

im wondering if some of the stuff on beta are blue pvp code that werent altered by haynar so they arent red code we are used to

[Technique]

I have no clue. I was guessing it was some classic pvp feature. I did not research why it was added.It was a bandaid Null used to address complaints that channeling a spell through melee was too easy.

Whether that was due to push being inadequate or the channeling check being too lenient or a combination of both, who knows. It was never investigated.

[Bazia]

Upon further research I'm about 90% sure that the only resists that are different from broken useless blue server code on the beta are spells and resists Haynar was actively working on.

Too much shit is broken that he never mentioned he was addressing, so everyone needs to calm their jimmies imo.

[Haynar]

Devouring darkness 100% success rate so far at 126mr, I'd put this one and all the other snares in the "root resist" pile

How else will that gimpy sk chase you down and get some YT before you plug?

H

[alaiwy0503]

Didn't we hear that the blue server's /duels use blue code and not the red specific code? so is our testing really even doing anything?

[Haynar]

/duel uses red code mostly now. Might be some pieces i have missed. But the idea was to make blue /duel and arena use same code.

H

[Haynar]

And I still want to do something about plugging.

H

[quido]

plugging is classic

[Haynar]

Didnt say was gonna prevent. Was thinking if you zone less than a certain HP, and its clear someone was gonna get you, send YT that you fled like a cowardly dog from person who did most dmg.

[Nirgon]

How else will that gimpy sk chase you down and get some YT before you plug?

H

It's a necro spell

and it will land every time first cast pvp

and people die to melee train almost instantly after

[Haynar]

Well maybe it needs an adjustment too.

H

[Bazia]

fuck the snare look at bards lol

[Burgerking]

Didnt say was gonna prevent. Was thinking if you zone less than a certain HP, and its clear someone was gonna get you, send YT that you fled like a cowardly dog from person who did most dmg.

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr06/2013/7/31/13/anigif_enhanced-buzz-7524-1375293036-26.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/oNKLBehxbnoqY/giphy.gif

https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/hostedimages/1380419480/831680.gif

[Haynar]

fuck the snare look at bards lol
Bards are still playable? Who in their right mind would roll a Bard?

I thought we broke that off long ago.





Bards just suck to work on. Fix one thing. Break 3 others. Total suckage.

H

[Smedy]

And I still want to do something about plugging.

H

i love you, if you could fix plugging eq pvp would be about 200% as fun for everyone, plugging is the most gay shit ever

really appreciate the work you're making dog, this shit is unreal

[Lasher]

id donate for anti plugging

[Smedy]

id donate for anti plugging