Late game Min/maxing class race list

[Belleraphone]

Hey all, I was wondering what the best race for each class was in terms of very late game raiding. I've already compiled a list from the posts here but it's missing something and i might be wrong on some of these, tell me what you think.

SK: Ogre
Pally: Dwarf
Warrior: Iskar
Bard: Half Elf
Rogue: Barbarian
Monk: Iskar
Shaman: Ogre
Wizard: Erudite
Magician: Erudite
Enchanter: High Elf
Ranger:
Druid:
Necro: Iksar (Forgot to put necro on this list)
Cleric:

[Pint]

Gnome, best race is gnome

[Azlani]

Enchanter = High Elf (more CHA when you are decked out in resist gear)

DE is second best race for racial hide, but that's more group oriented.

Necros = hands down Iksar (HP regen on a necro translates to more mana)

Warrior = Ogre (hands down - it's about the frontal stun resist)

Shaman = Ask around, but I don't think Ogre is correct (lowest wis, yes?). There are tons of barbarians and trolls at the endgame, too. Don't see that many iksar, but I suspect that's more faction than stat related.

[webrunner5]

Enchanter = High Elf (more CHA when you are decked out in resist gear)

DE is second best race for racial hide, but that's more group oriented.

Necros = hands down Iksar (HP regen on a necro translates to more mana)

Warrior = Ogre (hands down - it's about the frontal stun resist)

Shaman = Ask around, but I don't think Ogre is correct (lowest wis, yes?). There are tons of barbarians and trolls at the endgame, too. Don't see that many iksar, but I suspect that's more faction than stat related.

I have a Barb Shaman and I KNOW when Velious comes out I will wish to hell I made it a Ogre, trust me.

[Bboboo]

If it can be Iksar > Optimization


Also you have ranger listed twice.

[Bohab]

Warrior = Ogre (hands down - it's about the frontal stun resist)

Shaman = Ask around, but I don't think Ogre is correct (lowest wis, yes?). There are tons of barbarians and trolls at the endgame, too. Don't see that many iksar, but I suspect that's more faction than stat related.

Think you got these mixed up... frontal stun is hardly a game changer for warrior where as a shaman they can continue casting.

[myriverse]

Sentenza Iksar. So, I care not what anyone else says.

[Belleraphone]

Forgot to add necro to the class list, edited it.
I've heard late game Iksar is slightly better than Ogre because of their natural AC bonus for warriors. is that true

[Belleraphone]

Also added Barbarian for Rogue

[Daldaen]

Druid, any elf of Tunare.

Wood Elf of Half Elf are acceptable.

Come Verrious WIS will get capped easily at high end so it's all about them clickies and them secondary stats/look. Elves have those.

[SamwiseRed]

erudite anything, naw unless it playing basketball.

also frontal stun immunity is def good for war. cant gain agro when stunned. try playing a warrior sometime (non-ogre) and see how many times you are stunned in a fight.

[Thiefboy777]

Being a Barbarian Rogue sucks. I'm big, goofy looking, and have to click on annoying illusion mask every 20 minutes.

I would race change from Barb to pretty much anything else in a heartbeat.

Str isn't that hard to come by, and there are other races that can start with 95+ str.

[SamwiseRed]

barb can throw best weapon in the game. zee boulder, and crit with it too.

[Sirken]

Gnome, best race is gnome

^


SK: Gnome
Pally: Gnome
Warrior: Gnome
Bard: Gnome (get the mask)
Rogue: Gnome
Monk: 100% Gnome (no explanation needed)
Shaman: not needed, but would be Gnome if they gave a damn
Wizard: Gnome
Magician: Gnome
Enchanter: Gnome
Ranger: Entertainment for Gnomes
Druid: Gnomes are too busy tinkering to be druid'ing
Necro: Gnome
Cleric: Gnome

and fixt

[Taminy]

Barb for warrior, solely for stats AND not getting stuck places. Ogres and trolls need shrink a lot and barb almost never does. That and being best stats race that's still pretty.

But in all seriousness for min/maxing definitely Ogre. More stamina is always better and it's not as easy as people make it out to be to max stamina. Plus as an ogre you can skip a lot of stamina items and go for items with more raw hp and also by the time a small race warrior maxes stamina buffed, you can do it unbuffed - ie you can skip getting stamina buff.

Frontal stun immunity is overrated for a warrior. Any problems with aggro are solved with mallets or root net dumps at the start of a fight.

[SamwiseRed]

Barb for warrior, solely for stats AND not getting stuck places. Ogres and trolls need shrink a lot and barb almost never does. That and being best stats race that's still pretty.

But in all seriousness for min/maxing definitely Ogre. More stamina is always better and it's not as easy as people make it out to be to max stamina. Plus as an ogre you can skip a lot of stamina items and go for items with more raw hp and also by the time a small race warrior maxes stamina buffed, you can do it unbuffed - ie you can skip getting stamina buff.

Frontal stun immunity is overrated for a warrior. Any problems with aggro are solved with mallets or root net dumps at the start of a fight.

forgot how much of a click fest blue is. well in that case just carry around a fresh soulfire too. i guess on blue race choice doesnt matter because there is always a clicky you can recharge or quest to make up for it.

[Daldaen]

Clickies make the game much more dynamic, serve to remove platinum from an already bloated economy and make the game more fun overall.

SoulFires though I agree should be Paladin only. The stuff you can vendor recharge, go for it. If you want to burn 2k in recharging costs to solo a mob, feel free.

[SamwiseRed]

you mean make it easier? soulfire being usable by everyone is a joke and so is recharging. glad that shit isnt on red.

[Briq]

Having first played a half elf warrior to level 60 and raiding and then playing an ogre warrior to level 60 and raiding, I will tell you that the no frontal stun is a game changer for warriors. Clickies aside, if you only have your weapons and taunt, those 2 seconds you are stunned you can lose aggro and could be the difference between it popping around or staying on you.

Lakwandarius - 17 Iksar Necro
Briqi - 34 High Elf Enchanter

[SamwiseRed]

ye anyone who says warrior stun immunity doesnt matter on warriors has never played a warrior period. that being said i dont min/max so my warriors arent ogre :)

[Taminy]

ye anyone who says warrior stun immunity doesnt matter on warriors has never played a warrior period. that being said i dont min/max so my warriors arent ogre :)

While xp grouping frontal stun immunity is important. On bosses it isn't.

[Jimjam]

SK: nope
Pally: maybe later
Warrior: halfling
Bard: nope
Rogue: halfling
Monk: nope
Shaman: barb female
Wizard: nope
Magician: nope
Enchanter: nope
Ranger: maybe later
Druid: halfling
Necro: nope
Cleric: halfling

[Forsale]

imho:

SK: Ogre
Pally: Dwarf as tank / High Elf as group healer
Warrior: Ogre
Bard: Human (only bard race able to wear robes (http://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky))
Rogue: Human (best rogue race able to wear robes (http://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky))
Monk: Iksar
Shaman: Ogre solo / Iksar in group/raid (regen + only bard race able to wear robes (http://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky))
Wizard: Erudite
Magician: Erudite
Enchanter: High Elf (High base CHA)
Ranger: Human (only ranger race able to wear robes (http://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky))
Druid: Human (only druid race able to wear robes (http://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky))
Necro: Iksar
Cleric: High Elf (high base CHA/WIS + robes (Sal`Varae`s Robe of Darkness)!)

[Orruar]

Shaman: Troll

The same 2-3 people are always here talking up ogre stun immunity for shaman, but they don't know what they're doing. They are the kind of shaman that probably still uses JBB click spam at level 60.

[Bohab]

ye anyone who says warrior stun immunity doesnt matter on warriors has never played a warrior period. that being said i dont min/max so my warriors arent ogre :)

What an ignorant statement... I've played a MT warrior on this server for almost 2 years now. I've tanked EVERYTHING (excluding VP). I have no trouble what so ever with aggro, positioning, and moving with the push while not having frontal stun immunity. Even just clearing trash or xp groups it makes zero difference. Stop spreading false information.

[khanable]

also frontal stun immunity is def good for war. cant gain agro when stunned. try playing a warrior sometime (non-ogre) and see how many times you are stunned in a fight.

It's only something like 5-10% less threat generation. Definitely big for red (no rechargeable clickies), not a huge game breaker in the least over on blue. Mallet, strings, sit back and lol. Dump a net every few seconds if you really want. Don't even need to turn on auto attack.

People will claim ogre is necessary for positioning, but I think it's horseshit. 1/2 the time you won't have sufficient hate to drag the thing around at your leisure because your raid force is bad, and even if you did, you're still getting summoned and all that bullshit and have to deal with that mostly retarded raid force that is afk watching youporn and just pushing the mob into retarded places.

With that said, Ogre's have by far the easiest time maxing stamina out for dem hp's. Slam is cool too sometimes. Backhandin bitches all day.

For red I'd definitely say Ogre. For blue - doesn't matter. In the Kunark era I'd say probably anything that allows you to easily max stamina (ogre, troll, etc). Certainly not iksar, but the easy road is the lame road and you can certainly make it work.

Whoever mentioned shaman: Ogre 100%. Stun immunity can be huge when trying to get off a spell with several mobs on you. If you're the kind of person to root rot a mob at a time regen may be more useful, if you're a a swat team motherfucker and kicking down doors and shit Ogre all the way.

[Forsale]

What an ignorant statement... I've played a MT warrior on this server for almost 2 years now. I've tanked EVERYTHING (excluding VP). I have no trouble what so ever with aggro not having frontal stun immunity. Even just clearing trash or xp groups it makes zero difference. Stop spreading false information.

Nobody said it isn't possible with a non-ogre.
But stun immunity means more dps, more procs, more aggro... Question is, do you NEED it? No most of the time you don't, but if you wanna min/max, an Ogre is at the very least gonna be dealing a little more damage.
It's not rocket science.

[Bohab]

Nobody said it isn't possible with a non-ogre.
But stun immunity means more dps, more procs, more aggro... Question is, do you NEED it? No most of the time you don't, but if you wanna min/max, an Ogre is at the very least gonna be dealing a little more damage.
It's not rocket science.

But it really doesn't? You act as if the tank is stunned 40% of the fight and that just isn't true. It's hardly more of anything! They deal more damage? Christ I'll be sure to match the parse and see how much more dps the ogre is dishing out. This game is RNG, you're not going to see an average % of more dmg from an ogre vs another race. I just say frontal stun for a tank is horse shit. Now if we're talking stats then sure the ogre has an easy time maxing sta and slipping in raw hp gear before other races.

[SamwiseRed]

What an ignorant statement... I've played a MT warrior on this server for almost 2 years now. I've tanked EVERYTHING (excluding VP). I have no trouble what so ever with aggro/positioning/moving with the push while not having frontal stun immunity. Even just clearing trash or xp groups it makes zero difference. Stop spreading false information.

damn you are a moron. read the OP. hell read the thread title. this is about min/maxing. nowhere did i say other races cant tank. while stunned you are not generating agro. even if its only 5-10% threat generation lost, its still threat lost. so again to answer OP, ogre warrior is the best race if you are a min/maxer. please stop being an idiot.

[khanable]

But it really doesn't? You act as if the tank is stunned 40% of the fight and that just isn't true.

By definition min/maxing is squeezing every bit of performance out - Ogre's will certainly have a slight edge on DPS/hate generation.

edit: Also, when considering min/max on a warrior I really only consider min/maxing for tanking end game bosses. It's really the only worthwhile reason to be a warrior. If you really want to min/max as a tank for groups then be an SK or paladin.

[Whirled]

Whoever mentioned shaman: Ogre 100%. Stun immunity can be huge when trying to get off a spell with several mobs on you. If you're the kind of person to root rot a mob at a time regen may be more useful, if you're a a swat team motherfucker and kicking down doors and shit Ogre all the way.

I duo'ed a Wizard with an Ogre Shaman & if we ever had too much agro, he'd back into a corner, take agro & we'd gate. The legends are true about those big corridor blockers.

[Bohab]

this is about min/maxing.

I get that but I'm just saying when it comes to warrior it's not that big of a deal what so ever compared to an ogre shaman getting it. I don't see it as a tank attribute that should force a player to choose ogre. I've duo'd with plenty of shamans of all races and ogre gets those slows/roots off while some tanking mobs easy. eat my ass pal

[Lunababy]

When it comes to Shaman there is no best. They all offer something:

Barbarian - Good faction
Ogre - Stun immunity
Troll - Evil faction + regen
Iksar - Regen + A/C + Solo faction

[SamwiseRed]

When it comes to Shaman there is no best. They all offer something:

Barbarian - Good faction
Ogre - Stun immunity
Troll - Evil faction + regen
Iksar - Regen + A/C + Solo faction

i gotta disagree from a min/maxing pov ogre still wins. Torper grabs innate regen and throws it out the window. faction doesnt help the shaman class in anyway, its just a convenience. ac not as good as everyone says, at least not on here. frontal stun immunity is one of the best racial traits there is. hide/sneak is up there as well. anyways if you had BiS 60 shaman of each race lined up against the wall, id argue the ogre would be king in both pve and pvp.

just to put this out there, i hate min/maxing. im just answering the OP. i have iksar shaman, gnome necros, dark elf warriors, and a bunch of other shit that i just enjoy. play what you like but dont kid yourself when it comes to simple min/maxing question. no need to get defensive about common sense.

[trist4n]

I've always been curious if I should reroll my monk because he is human. The hp regen would be pretty amazing, and the AC bonus goes without saying. I just hated the idea of being KOS everywhere. That just seemed like a game mechanic that I did not want to deal with.

[Ravager]

Druid: Elf Tunare if http://wiki.project1999.com/Warden_Symbol_of_Tunare ever makes its way into the game.

Also, the cultural chainmail is neat.

[fuark]

I've always been curious if I should reroll my monk because he is human. The hp regen would be pretty amazing, and the AC bonus goes without saying. I just hated the idea of being KOS everywhere. That just seemed like a game mechanic that I did not want to deal with.

Iksar monk is better, but does it honestly matter? Play whatever you think is coolest, it's not too big of a deal. As long as you have a fungi, your hp will regen while FDed.

I have a DE necro because I think they are way cooler than Iksars. Are Iksars better? Way better. But did it ever hinder my necro? Not really.

[Ravager]

I've always been curious if I should reroll my monk because he is human. The hp regen would be pretty amazing, and the AC bonus goes without saying. I just hated the idea of being KOS everywhere. That just seemed like a game mechanic that I did not want to deal with.

I played an Iksar to level 50 then changed because Iksars look stupid as hell.

[Nuktari]

Troll Wizard,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Wizard_troll_doll-low_res.jpg

[captain]

best race for each class was in terms of very late game raiding

A lot of people in this thread are forgetting the original question when replying about what is best. He asked for a specific situation and most of the replies have been about how a certain race is better in general and not for end game raiding.

Warrior, Shaman, SK - Ogre. Frontal Stun Immunity and Slam, can't beat those two combined abilities for raids.

Paladin - Dwarf. Higher Stamina(HP's), some extra innate resists and their racial armor is surprisingly amazing even late game Kunark. Erudite's are a worthy mention because of the extra unique gear. I would say it's a toss up come Velious.

Bard - Half Elf. For the extra Dex for when using epic.

Rogue - Barbarian for now since it's easier to cap stats in Kunark, come Velious it probably won't make a big difference.

Monk - Human. This is very situational and I would say that the slight edge human's have is that if everything goes right during a pull and raid mob set up they will add to the raid force as DPS and they beat Iksar in that category.

Wizard, Magician - Erudite. More INT for more PEWPEW simple.

Enchanter - High Elf. Only for the scenario that when fighting a raid mob in resist gear and the off chance that they need to charm/mez mobs they have higher CHA.

Ranger - Half Elf. Higher Dex to help Epic proc and in Velious can worship Tunare for sweet gear.

Druid - Halfling. Sneak hands down OP racial ability, I would like to see any other race get past two drakes without training. Come velious Wood Elf for Tunare armor maybe...

Necro - Iksar. Better regen which helps feed clerics.

Cleric - High Elf for stats Halfling for situational. Sure high elfs cap out stats easily but wisdom is easy to come by and Velious will make it even easier. But once again being able to sneak past two drakes(who knows what else come Velious) to solo CR a failed pull team deep in the dungeon is pretty damn good.

[trist4n]

I played an Iksar to level 50 then changed because Iksars look stupid as hell.

Oh god I know. The Iksar model is brutal. If I was going to play an Iksar Monk, I think I'd have to install Luclin models or my brain would freak out.

[Byrjun]

Warrior, Shaman, SK - Ogre. Frontal Stun Immunity and Slam, can't beat those two combined abilities for raids.

If you can be an Ogre, be an Ogre.

Paladin - Dwarf. Higher Stamina(HP's), some extra innate resists and their racial armor is surprisingly amazing even late game Kunark. Erudite's are a worthy mention because of the extra unique gear. I would say it's a toss up come Velious.

If you're in a Velious raiding guild, Natures Defender probably won't really compare to other things you can get. So I'd agree that Dwarf is the best option for stats. Otherwise if you're more of a casual player and Natures Defender is going to be a BIS for you, you probably want to go Tunare Half Elf.

Bard - Half Elf. For the extra Dex for when using epic.

Never really played a Bard, but is the extra dex better than say extra stamina and strength on a Human? Stamina is traditionally a rarer stat (until Velious kinda) and a lot of Bard gear seems to involve dexterity. As a shaman bards rarely ask me for dexterity, but they always ask me for stamina. Also, Robe of the Azure Sky.

Rogue - Barbarian for now since it's easier to cap stats in Kunark, come Velious it probably won't make a big difference.

Also the only Rogue race that gets Slam, which is situationally useful. But I think the Robe of the Azure Sky might still be a BIS in Velious, so perhaps Human is the correct choice.

Monk - Human. This is very situational and I would say that the slight edge human's have is that if everything goes right during a pull and raid mob set up they will add to the raid force as DPS and they beat Iksar in that category.

The "extra Human DPS" only comes from bare fists if you're not using epic. Since almost every Monk is using weapons or epic, there's really no advantage to being a Human over an Iksar. I think Monk is one class where it's really easy to say one race is better than another. Iksars are also cooler looking than Humans, I don't know what those other people are talking about.

Wizard, Magician - Erudite. More INT for more PEWPEW simple.

Sure. Almost want to make the Human for stamina argument again, but it doesn't do as much for casters (although every bit of HP helps). Intelligence is just so easy to cap, but once it's capped you can focus on other stats.

Enchanter - High Elf. Only for the scenario that when fighting a raid mob in resist gear and the off chance that they need to charm/mez mobs they have higher CHA.

Probably correct. I know a lot of people who say you should go Dark Elf for Hide, but it seems like that could easily be replaceable by a Goblin Gazhugi Ring.

Ranger - Half Elf. Higher Dex to help Epic proc and in Velious can worship Tunare for sweet gear.

I'd argue Tunare Human for higher strength and stamina. Also, Robe of the Azure Sky.

Druid - Halfling. Sneak hands down OP racial ability, I would like to see any other race get past two drakes without training. Come velious Wood Elf for Tunare armor maybe...

I still think Tunare Human should be a consideration for the stamina. Wisdom is very easy to cap. Also, Robe of the Azure Sky. Sneak is definitely useful though.

Necro - Iksar. Better regen which helps feed clerics.

Yup.

Cleric - High Elf for stats Halfling for situational. Sure high elfs cap out stats easily but wisdom is easy to come by and Velious will make it even easier. But once again being able to sneak past two drakes(who knows what else come Velious) to solo CR a failed pull team deep in the dungeon is pretty damn good.

Clerics are kinda weird since you miss out on two of the best items if your race can't equip robes. I don't believe anything comes close to Sal`Varae's Robe of Darkness for cleric's chest slot. So that means High Elf, Dark Elf, Human, Erudite, or Gnome.

[Steel Warrior]

I played an ogre warrior on live and now I have a dwarf on red. The stun makes a difference.

[Ele]

Clerics are kinda weird since you miss out on two of the best items if your race can't equip robes. I don't believe anything comes close to Sal`Varae's Robe of Darkness for cleric's chest slot. So that means High Elf, Dark Elf, Human, Erudite, or Gnome.

It comes down to a choice of utility from 1-60 (CR, exploring, quests) with sneak (and somewhat hide) versus gear progression at the very top end.

Best chest slot for halflings come Velious is Matchless Dragonhide. :o

[Ravager]

Druid - Halfling. Sneak hands down OP racial ability, I would like to see any other race get past two drakes without training. Come velious Wood Elf for Tunare armor maybe...


The clicky root necklace in Velious cannot be discounted and would see far more use than situational sneak imo. Not to mention, 95% of all druids are only druids to make some plat to gear their real mains.

[Loke]

Ive played a non ogre warrior for years, and he has tanked every raid mob outside VP multiple times successfully, so I'm by no means advocating for my chosen race/class when I say that from a min/max pov ogre is without a doubt the best warrior race. I'm pretty sure Loraen did a breakdown of the numbers and came out with something like 6% more dps, which is definitely significant if we're talking min/max.

Does that mean another race warrior can't tank everything in the game? Absolutely not. Will race make up for the player being an idiot? Nope. But holding everything equal in terms of gear and player situational awareness, an ogre will be slightly better than a non-ogre. That is also true of iksar monks, and a variety of other class/race combos. Ultimately IMO while some classes do have a "best race", worrying about that when you could spend time becoming a better and more knowledgable player is silly. Character race will never trump understanding of encounters and game mechanics - so don't stress the little things.

[Byrjun]

Best chest slot for halflings come Velious is Matchless Dragonhide. :o

I think Matchless Dragonhide is best in slot for most classes that can't use Sal`Varae's Robe of Darkness or the Robe of the Azure Sky. This puts a premium on races that can equip robes. The exceptions are Shaman (Vindi BP) and Warrior / SK / Pally (BP of Eradication).

Haven't seen the Matchless Dragonhide drop from Klandicar yet... lots of stuff on his loot list and he doesn't drop much. Good luck. :D

[Kobold]

The "extra Human DPS" only comes from bare fists if you're not using epic. Since almost every Monk is using weapons or epic, there's really no advantage to being a Human over an Iksar. I think Monk is one class where it's really easy to say one race is better than another. Iksars are also cooler looking than Humans, I don't know what those other people are talking about.



Everything you said is true. And when I came back months ago I wanted to pool resources into exploring some classes that I had not played before. One of those was a monk.

I listed to everyone who said make an iksar or you'll regret it. I made an iksar and I regret it. Every time I see a human, I am jealous to be frank.

I thought in many ways, I was a min/max kind of guy, even though I no longer have the time to dedicate as I once did. As it turned out, I found I have to like the toon I'm looking at.

All this is neither here nor there as it pertains to this thread. I'm just high as a kite on nyquil.

[kaev]

Paladin - Half-Elf because any race can sling stuns and swing Fiery Defender and toss a panicky battle-rez at that last downed clicky cleric so he can die again before the wipe finishes, but only a Half-Elf is gonna look good while doing it. The Dwarf "advantages" don't really matter to a veteran raiding Paladin, MR/STR/STA are capped at 255 and Velious raid gear dwarfs dwarven cultural.

Druid - Whatever the fuck you want because none of the racial/diety choices make any damned tiniest bit of difference for a raiding Druid trying to make himself useful. What the hell, be Human/Karana and ignore all the meaningless petty minmaxy baloney (it's okay, you don't have to be jealous of those petty little baubles, you can spend the time you save questing useful gear for your alts), maybe you'll get lucky and get to wear a robe someday.

[Erati]

@Byrjun

I dont think Human druids can be Tunare.....

if they could, I need to speak to my goddess and let her know that filthy humans are worshiping the elven god...

[hammertime7795]

Ogre is the superior War race imo. Cant beat frontal stun immunity. Slam is still superior to kick due to its higher skill cap as well.

[brecon]

[QUOTE=kaev;1696294]Paladin - Half-Elf because any race can sling stuns and swing Fiery Defender and toss a panicky battle-rez at that last downed clicky cleric so he can die again before the wipe finishes, but only a Half-Elf is gonna look good while doing it.

The only thing that matters is Human Velious Dragon Helms. Half Elf paladins, Ogre SKs, Halfling Warriors, will all live their lives in a terrible state of regret.

Seriously though, the only end-game things that matter are racial perks not stats, and the answer will always be ogre, iksar, or unimportant.

[iruinedyourday]

i gotta disagree from a min/maxing pov ogre still wins. Torper grabs innate regen and throws it out the window. faction doesnt help the shaman class in anyway, its just a convenience. ac not as good as everyone says, at least not on here. frontal stun immunity is one of the best racial traits there is. hide/sneak is up there as well. anyways if you had BiS 60 shaman of each race lined up against the wall, id argue the ogre would be king in both pve and pvp.

just to put this out there, i hate min/maxing. im just answering the OP. i have iksar shaman, gnome necros, dark elf warriors, and a bunch of other shit that i just enjoy. play what you like but dont kid yourself when it comes to simple min/maxing question. no need to get defensive about common sense.

as far as shaman goes, as a Barb youll ever so often be like RAAAGE!!!! IF I HAD FRONTAL STUN *SHAKING FIST& CURSING!!* and be at 60% health instead of 90 after some stupid jerk mob does something that is frustrating.

But as ogre youll only be like, 'i kinda wish I had an eyepatch' like pretty much all of the time..

One of those emotions may give you a heart attack IRL, so you can choose which one is more important to you.

[Bill Tetley]

played an ogre war for years on live and now I play a damn woodelf here for the last year and a half. I see no difference what so ever with frontal stun immunity being gone and kick seems to land just as much as slam did... dps? I parse the same as any ogre warrior in similar gear. /shrug 6% difference? doubtful

[Orruar]

Keep on rolling those ogre shaman and thinking you have an advantage of any kind. Those of us getting stunned once every 2 minutes while casting a 1.3s canni laugh at you. I'd much rather have another 160hp from innate regen rather than avoid a mildly annoying bash. And if that interrupt leads to your death or some great problem, you are bad at shaman anyway, so switching to ogre isn't going to change much. Again, I bet most of the people saying to roll ogre still use JBB at 60. The only reason you'd care about stun immunity is if you're constantly spamming a 8s bracer to do subpar dps.

[Orruar]

played an ogre war for years on live and now I play a damn woodelf here for the last year and a half. I see no difference what so ever with frontal stun immunity being gone and kick seems to land just as much as slam did... dps? I parse the same as any ogre warrior in similar gear. /shrug 6% difference? doubtful

6% was probably calculated based on unslowed/unslowable mobs like raid bosses. On anything slowed, the most you'd ever be stunned is like 4% of the time, and that's only if the mob lands 100% of bashes and never decides to kick. So yeah, on random trash that is often missing/kicking/slowed, it's probably like 1%.

[Taminy]

Ogre is the superior War race imo. Cant beat frontal stun immunity. Slam is still superior to kick due to its higher skill cap as well.

Again, I say ogre warrior stats (stamina) are far more relevant than frontal stun. Everyone who thinks you can max stamina without sacrificing raw hp/resists/other important stuff as an elf warrior is off their nut. Unless you're in class C during velious, and even then...

Slam is absolutely much much better than kick though, you're right.

That said - play what you want. I have barb warrior and shaman and a wood elf rogue and going to roll a human monk.

[khanable]

6% was probably calculated based on unslowed/unslowable mobs like raid bosses. On anything slowed, the most you'd ever be stunned is like 4% of the time, and that's only if the mob lands 100% of bashes and never decides to kick. So yeah, on random trash that is often missing/kicking/slowed, it's probably like 1%.

The point is getting those slows and roots off when you have 5-6 mobs on you

Ogre removes an element of randomness (stun) if you're facing the mob.

In terms of min/max, that's huge!

[Orruar]

The point is getting those slows and roots off when you have 5-6 mobs on you

Ogre removes an element of randomness (stun) if you're facing the mob.

In terms of min/max, that's huge!

If you're a min/maxxer, you're unlikely to put yourself in the situation where you have 5-6 mobs on you. And even if you are in that situation, you're likely the type to have plenty of root nets to lock things down. How many shamans solo HS south these days? I did it for a long time and never saw any others except maybe Svenn (another barb). Where are all these amazingly powerful ogre shamans?

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

6% was probably calculated based on unslowed/unslowable mobs like raid bosses. On anything slowed, the most you'd ever be stunned is like 4% of the time, and that's only if the mob lands 100% of bashes and never decides to kick. So yeah, on random trash that is often missing/kicking/slowed, it's probably like 1%.

Pretty sure people aren't worried about whether they're getting interrupted during canni.

It's whether you get interrupted during slow/torpor that counts.

[Tuffpuppy]

Enjoy dying when your 6 second torpor cast gets interrupted.

[khanable]

If you're a min/maxxer, you're unlikely to put yourself in the situation where you have 5-6 mobs on you. And even if you are in that situation, you're likely the type to have plenty of root nets to lock things down. How many shamans solo HS south these days? I did it for a long time and never saw any others except maybe Svenn (another barb). Where are all these amazingly powerful ogre shamans?

Someone already mentioned it in this thread but:

player skill and situational awareness will always trump racial abilities

we're talking pure min/max for a specific classes' function

which now that I think about it, all shamans are good for are sta/dex/talis and sow, ammirite?

iksar/troll all day!

:p

[Raev]

So here is the argument for Iksar warriors over Ogres: if you are tanking something in Velious, are you more likely to a) die or b) lose aggro? My experience on Velious beta says A. CH aggro is almost nothing, Monks FD, Rogues Evade, Wizards cast concussion, etc. Of course, if you are tanking ToV east trash for slow, then yeah it might matter . . . or you could just have a Paladin tank. Also, I don't think the Iksar racial AC bonus is all that amazing. Remember, you'll be using Defensive most of the time which effectively cuts AC effectiveness in half.

The real TL;DR here is that the OP's question is pretty pointless for most class/race combinations. I would say Ogre Shadowknight and Iksar Necromancer have a small advantage over the other SK/necro choices, Ogre Shaman and Iksar Monk have a tiny advantage, and nothing else really matters.

I mean when you combine the BoTB and the Solo Artist challenge, it's pretty clear that player skill >> race/class combinations.

[fiveeauxfour]

Iksar monk is better, but does it honestly matter? Play whatever you think is coolest, it's not too big of a deal. As long as you have a fungi, your hp will regen while FDed.

This. The fungi tunic really diminishes the combat efficacy of the iksar regen. Iksars have 8 more hp/tick standing regen than humans, so in a solo combat situation that wont make much of a difference. That means every minute is going to net the Iksar 80 more hp; with a fungi the numbers are 270 hp/min iksar vs 190 hp/min human. When mobs (like drolvarg capt and guards) hit easily in the 100's and do so multiple times during a single fight, it is going to be difficult to comp that loss of hp...again the 80hp isn't going to be felt. The fungi will tho. Its all about that fungi. Get a fungi. FUNGI!

The increased AC can never be overcome but in endgame situations, for example tanking quadding 200s, that small amount of AC isn't going to save you. A def disc will, but why are you tanking anyways? FD the aggro an use innerflame ffs.

I chose the race that I currently play because I wanna look at human tail rather than iksar tail. giggidy.

[Belleraphone]

Hey guys I appreciate your help but I'm well aware of the fact that player skill is better than racial abilities. I am just interested in min maxing though and want the best race for any new characters I start, that's all.

[iruinedyourday]

hey guys ima let you finish but frontal stun immune is the best racial statistic of all time, OF ALL TIME

[Phantasm]

Iksar for 100 Swimming and 50 Forage, lets be serious here

[GinnasP99]

Dark elf necro for max style ;)

(sorry Sesser)

[Orruar]

Hey guys I appreciate your help but I'm well aware of the fact that player skill is better than racial abilities. I am just interested in min maxing though and want the best race for any new characters I start, that's all.

That's my point. For any moderately aware shaman, troll > ogre. And most min/maxers are interested in maxing their playstyle in addition to maxing the toon they have. So troll is the best min/max race for shaman. Ogre is the best race for poorly played shaman.

[Orruar]

Enjoy dying when your 6 second torpor cast gets interrupted.

If a shaman dies because he had a single interrupt on torpor, they probably shouldn't bother with the CR and instead just reroll as a wizard.

[Daldaen]

Since ogre shamans never get interrupted from push either... And no, 90 degree corners don't make you immune on this server to push interrupts.

Iksar Necromancer is pretty great though. At the highest end, with Ring 10 + Zlandicar's Heart or Ring 10 + two 2 Regen items (Dozekar boots, belt of dwarfslaying, Chardok multislot)... You don't lose HP from Demi Lich at 60 when sitting. Means you never need Holgresh Elder Beads or to Vexing some stalking probes to recover health from Lich. Non-iksars cannot cancel out the Demi Lich drain.

[Orruar]

Since ogre shamans never get interrupted from push either... And no, 90 degree corners don't make you immune on this server to push interrupts.

Exactly. And while on a slowed mob, you can time spell casts between melee attacks, a landed bash can still interrupt on an ogre, meaning that all that wonderful frontal stun immunity didn't do anything useful. In fact, it's even worse since you won't find out that the spell didn't channel until the end of the cast instead of immediately.

[iruinedyourday]

That's my point. For any moderately aware shaman, troll > ogre. And most min/maxers are interested in maxing their playstyle in addition to maxing the toon they have. So troll is the best min/max race for shaman. Ogre is the best race for poorly played shaman.

that's not true, like the hp regen wont 'save your life' it just makes it a little more convenient for you when regening a few smidges of HP here and there, after maybe the last torp fades for example...

the frontal stun may literately save the life of even the best shaman, from a situation where shit got a little out of control (nobody or no skill level can prevent all shit going crazy in eq.. sorry but thats the truth, shit goes crazy all the time).

you mix the fact that it may save your life, with the fact that it's also very convenient to not get frontal stunned when moving around past rooted mobs, or when face tanking.. and sorry, yes regen is nice but frontal stun immunity is both nice AND can save your life.

so put that in your corn cob pipe and smoke it! :)

[Orruar]

All I see is a bunch of opinion from someone who doesn't play a shaman in any difficult scenario, if at all. If anyone plays an ogre shaman and regularly solos HS south, come give your opinion on how vital frontal stun immunity has been for you.

[iruinedyourday]

All I see is a bunch of opinion from someone who doesn't play a shaman in any difficult scenario, if at all. If anyone plays an ogre shaman and regularly solos HS south, come give your opinion on how vital frontal stun immunity has been for you.

http://www.endlick.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/there_is_no_need_to_be_upset.gif

literately bro i said it MAY save your life, regen wont.. it wont!

like when you pass 8 rooted things.. run through them you get stunned. you get another 2-300 damage on you.. as opposed to just avoiding that extra damage all together by not getting stunned.

your regen aint gonna regen faster if you didnt get that damage in the first place.

frontal stun : makes life easier sometimes - may save your life.

troll innate regen : makes life easier sometimes.

[fiveeauxfour]

http://i.imgur.com/tUf1pOh.gif

[iruinedyourday]

Lmao

[Orruar]

your regen aint gonna regen faster if you didnt get that damage in the first place.[/B]

Person who thinks a shaman is ever at full health gives opinion on shaman related topic.

QED

[Daldaen]

All that's worth noting here is gnomes and Halflings are never the best race for anyone to play ever.

Should just remove those races from game.

[Manticmuse]

no one cares what race u are once the mob is slowed. that is not the issue, though defenders of non ogre shamans frequently cite slowed mobs as being no big deal. the hard part is getting the high mr, unrootable mob slowed in the first place. and for that, i dont care how you talk about perfect timing and pen and paper results, there are things that can screw that up, and waiting to time your casts around bash WILL add toward the total amount of melee rounds you take in doing so. if you die because of 6 straight slow resists and the ogre lives on the 7th cast, then guess what, that is a min/max advantage. so just deal with it. no one is saying you made a wrong choice, but for that rare situation that might not be so rare come velious, yes it is better!

[khanable]

All that's worth noting here is gnomes and Halflings are never the best race for anyone to play ever.

Should just remove those races from game.

[Orruar]

no one cares what race u are once the mob is slowed. that is not the issue, though defenders of non ogre shamans frequently cite slowed mobs as being no big deal. the hard part is getting the high mr, unrootable mob slowed in the first place. and for that, i dont care how you talk about perfect timing and pen and paper results, there are things that can screw that up, and waiting to time your casts around bash WILL add toward the total amount of melee rounds you take in doing so. if you die because of 6 straight slow resists and the ogre lives on the 7th cast, then guess what, that is a min/max advantage. so just deal with it. no one is saying you made a wrong choice, but for that rare situation that might not be so rare come velious, yes it is better!

Name a single high MR non-rootable non-kitable mob a shaman will be soloing either now or in Velious. Hint: there are none.

[Stonecrush]

Cleric - Gnome.
Best racial Trade Skill come Velious. Able to wear robes, able to wear Brell armor...
Goggles?
Not a lot of downsides.

Shamans - I like Ogre shamans, played one on Live with my trio.
Honestly any race gets the job done solo.

Necromancers - Iksar. Fear is originated from Cazic Thule, oh and that regen is nice. Unless you're a root rotter.

Magician - Gnome

Warrior - I went Ogre back in 04. He looks mean and Rallos did make the Ogres.

Rogues - insert any race, one size fits all.

Monks - Iksar unless you want to be a human, wait you are one already. Go take some Taekwondo classes.

Druids - Play whatever, it doesn't matter. (if you roll human, try LARPing. They did it in a movie and it looked cool.)

Paladins - Dwarf. Maybe an Erudite to break the trend.

SK - Ogre but remember CazicThule is calling.

Bard - Let someone else swarm the OverThere. Half Elf?

Rangers - Someone has to buff the rogues. Maybe a elf of some kind. (Legolas in some other strange fashion.) Don't be a human, don't be that guy.
Lots of Dirt naps.

That's all for now.

[pharmakos]

there's a strong case to be made for Halfling Warriors. crazy high DEX, the ability to sneak pull, and the ability to hide? why did i go barb again?

[sealer]

Shaman: Troll

The same 2-3 people are always here talking up ogre stun immunity for shaman, but they don't know what they're doing. They are the kind of shaman that probably still uses JBB click spam at level 60.

Am a troll shaman, and shit i still JBB click spam... I solo the spore king once i get that bitch slowed and dmg it down with JBB then dot him up at 30%.. shit is cake

WTS 14 fungi tunics

[radditsu]

SK: Doesn't Matter
Pally: Doesn't Matter
Warrior: Doesn't Matter
Bard: Doesn't Matter
Rogue: Doesn't Matter
Monk: Doesn't Matter
Shaman: Doesn't Matter
Wizard: Doesn't Matter
Magician: Doesn't Matter
Enchanter: Doesn't Matter
Ranger: Doesn't Matter
Druid: Doesn't Matter
Necro: Doesn't Matter
Cleric: Doesn't Matter



your welcome

[Stonecrush]

SK: Doesn't Matter
Pally: Doesn't Matter
Warrior: Doesn't Matter
Bard: Doesn't Matter
Rogue: Doesn't Matter
Monk: Doesn't Matter
Shaman: Doesn't Matter
Wizard: Doesn't Matter
Magician: Doesn't Matter
Enchanter: Doesn't Matter
Ranger: Doesn't Matter
Druid: Doesn't Matter
Necro: Doesn't Matter
Cleric: Doesn't Matter



you're welcome

:rolleyes:

[Raev]

Everyone who thinks you can max stamina without sacrificing raw hp/resists/other important stuff as an elf warrior is off their nut.

I cheat and use STA potions when things get serious. If you look at http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Sakuragi you can see I'm actually skimping on a number of good items (Azure Ring, NoS, SBC) just like an Ogre would because I'm stamina capped with the potion.

All that's worth noting here is gnomes and Halflings are never the best race for anyone to play ever.

Should just remove those races from game.

THOSE ARE FIGHTING WORDS, SCUM

[kaev]

All that's worth noting here is gnomes and Halflings are never the best race for anyone to play ever.

Should just remove those races from game.

THOSE ARE FIGHTING WORDS, SCUM

Sorry man, but truth is truth even when it hurts.

[sox7d]

SK: Doesn't Matter
Pally: Doesn't Matter
Warrior: Doesn't Matter
Bard: Doesn't Matter
Rogue: Doesn't Matter
Monk: Doesn't Matter
Shaman: Doesn't Matter
Wizard: Doesn't Matter
Magician: Doesn't Matter
Enchanter: Doesn't Matter
Ranger: Doesn't Matter
Druid: Doesn't Matter
Necro: Doesn't Matter
Cleric: Doesn't Matter



your welcome

So edgy.

While I believe people should play the race that they think is coolest, this thread is about objective min/maxing.

[webrunner5]

no one cares what race u are once the mob is slowed. that is not the issue, though defenders of non ogre shamans frequently cite slowed mobs as being no big deal. the hard part is getting the high mr, unrootable mob slowed in the first place. and for that, i dont care how you talk about perfect timing and pen and paper results, there are things that can screw that up, and waiting to time your casts around bash WILL add toward the total amount of melee rounds you take in doing so. if you die because of 6 straight slow resists and the ogre lives on the 7th cast, then guess what, that is a min/max advantage. so just deal with it. no one is saying you made a wrong choice, but for that rare situation that might not be so rare come velious, yes it is better!

Hey finally a person that gets it on this thread :D. I guess a LOT of people have forgot what it is like to play Velious. Tons more resists on mobs, lot more unslowable, a lot more mobs summon in Velious etc, etc. Fights last for lots of minutes, not just seconds like now.

So that makes frontal stun immunity a lot bigger of a deal, I don't care what class you are that has the option of being a Ogre, make it one. As a person that plays mostly healer classes that extra no damage adds up in a 3 or 4 hour group. One one will ever exceed the HP that a Complete heal can do even in Velious with BiS items. So it just will make my job a little easier, and hell maybe I can even get up and loot something instead of having to sit on my ass all the time medding with a Gnome as the tank. :eek: YMMV.