SK vs Warrior in Velious?

[VincentVolaju]

Wondering what everyones opinion is on Warrior vs SK when it comes to Velious? Which one is the better tank? What are some of the changes they get, I heard Warrior get really nice Discs? Not too sure what happens with SKs though?

[SamwiseRed]

warrior will always be main tank. no expansion changes this to my knowledge. sks still good level tanks though when agro management is hard.

[Peekae]

Raiding situations warriors will really shine with how hard the mobs hit however SK's will still be amazing utility tanks / group tanks /trainers/ pullers etc

[Gimp]

Warriors will always be the best raid tank, SK's and Paladins do very well in smaller settings.

[Nisei]

What you got against Paladins, bro?

[webrunner5]

What you got against Paladins, bro?

You mean all 11 of them that play on here?? :p I think a Cleric can put out more DPS than a Pally can with their Point blank AE direct damage spells, DD spells on any mob, not just Un Dead and also Un Dead DD spells, Stun spells, Root, Fear, Plus Melee, and with good armor can Tank just about as well also, and can probably pull mobs just as well. Plus a lot more mana efficient heal spells at lot lower levels to get them, and better Rez, and quicker to get them also, and you WANT a Pally in the Group??

The only thing missing is lower caps on Melee skills on the Cleric, but just saying a Cleric is no slouch as a Tank.

[kaev]

Lol, Cleric can't tank near as well as a Paladin vs. content that actually requires a tank, it's not even close. Playing ersatz-Paladin on my Cleric is fun occasionally, for a few minutes, vs. greens and very low blues. Twinked to hell and back in your 20s and 30s sure, a Cleric can tank then, so can a Shaman or a Druid or even a Wizard or an Enchanter. But a Cleric's not a tank, don't post stupid shit here too many misinformed players around already.

If you're gonna tank, play a real tank (or a Ranger if you can gear him well enough.) And stop with the moronic hybrid hate already, it's not the hybrids who look bad when you post stupid shit like that.

[Danth]

On the other hand, a tank isn't strictly required most the time. Rangers, Monks, Bards, even Shamans can and do fill in as needed. My wife used to tank on her Cleric from time to time and did a fairly decent job of it. If the group has decent mana regen the Cleric-pseudo-tank typically works fine. Due to higher damage intake than a proper tank they usually stress a healer more than a real tank, though, if mana's an issue. Oh and forget much self-healing in such a situation, either; with constant pulls and no clarity it's hard enough just to maintain mana for aggro spells. It helps if the Cleric has decent gear for the role and a decent defense skill; many of them don't. Granted, for the great majority of group content all you really need is an Enchanter to go solo everything with charm (see: solo artist challenge). Everything else is pointless to some degree or another. Game would be pretty boring though if we were all Enchanters with a scattering of Wizards, Monks, Warriors, and Clerics for raids that need them.

Comparing damage to a Paladin, a Cleric has better burst, but their main offensive damage spell is both magic-based (hence a lot of resists) and inefficient. As such the Cleric's sustained damage output tends to be lower than the Paladin's, although frankly in this case it's a cripple fight since both classes stink for offense.

Danth

[webrunner5]

Comparing damage to a Paladin, a Cleric has better burst, but their main offensive damage spell is both magic-based (hence a lot of resists) and inefficient. As such the Cleric's sustained damage output tends to be lower than the Paladin's, although frankly in this case it's a cripple fight since both classes stink for offense.

Danth

You made my point very well. Both a Paladin and a Cleric are pretty sucky Tanks. :D

[webrunner5]

If you're gonna tank, play a real tank (or a Ranger if you can gear him well enough.) And stop with the moronic hybrid hate already, it's not the hybrids who look bad when you post stupid shit like that.

If you really think a Cleric is more squishy than a Ranger as a Tank you need to go back to playing WoW. :eek:

[Danth]

You made my point very well. Both a Paladin and a Cleric are pretty sucky Tanks. :D

If I take the joke literally, I don't necessarily disagree. I'll go one farther and say all the tank classes in this game sort of suck. Warriors have good durability but inadequate tools and can't properly do their job without outside help. Paladins and Shadow Knights have the necessary tools but lack a sufficient durability advantage over non-tank classes. Melee classes in this game just aren't balanced very well and this is one area where newer games (even newer versions of EQ) simply did a better job. P1999 is what it is, so I play the classes I like and accept their downsides.

Although I didn't like Planes of Power as a whole, I did very much enjoy watching Warriors scream bloody murder and throw temper tantrums in respect to their inadequacy and near-uselessness during that era. In hindsight it wasn't any more fair to them than the kunark era was to hybrids; I actually consider the EQ Warrior among the worst-designed classes in any online role-playing game ever. P1999 will stop with Velious, which is still better than Kunark for hybrids....Kunark is pretty much the worst period for the hybrid classes and every expansion (at least through Planes) made them a bit better proportionally.

Danth

[pasi]

Outside of pulling, SKs don't really bring anything unique to the PvE table until PoP. You can argue SoL gave them something unique, but near useless in the original voice and torrent line. The class doesn't come into its own until Omens of War.

On raids, Paladins completely outclassed them as knights as paladins were
1) Better raid trash tanks due to having more HP (AotC)
2) Superior Rampage Tanks (DA Hammer)
3) Having a desirable HP buff (DS/Brells)
4) Having passable group heals.

Two of those apply in Velious (group heals and HP buff).

SKs are a very enjoyable class to play, but this is not the ideal era to min/max as one. On the other hand, warriors are never worse than the 3rd strongest class throughout EQ.

[kaev]

If you really think a Cleric is more squishy than a Ranger as a Tank you need to go back to playing WoW. :eek:

Take the insults back to RnF.

Also, you're flat out wrong. Clerics have less base HP and get less protection from AC. My 49 Cleric in cultural plate with maxed defensive skills and self-buffed to a higher displayed AC and several hundred more HP than my 46 Ranger can manage self-buffed will die faster to a melee mob. Take away the buff disparity and my Ranger can easily out-tank a 3-levels higher Cleric in stronger gear. A decently geared 46 Ranger can easily sustain tanking level-appropriate content in a group with a competent Cleric or Shaman for a healer. Rangers are gimped tanks, but they are still tanks. Clerics are not tanks. Gear and buff a Ranger as a tank and he will tank, try the same with a Cleric and you'll learn a new meaning for the word manasponge.

[Aaramis]

Take the insults back to RnF.

Also, you're flat out wrong. Clerics have less base HP and get less protection from AC. My 49 Cleric in cultural plate with maxed defensive skills and self-buffed to a higher displayed AC and several hundred more HP than my 46 Ranger can manage self-buffed will die faster to a melee mob. Take away the buff disparity and my Ranger can easily out-tank a 3-levels higher Cleric in stronger gear. A decently geared 46 Ranger can easily sustain tanking level-appropriate content in a group with a competent Cleric or Shaman for a healer. Rangers are gimped tanks, but they are still tanks. Clerics are not tanks. Gear and buff a Ranger as a tank and he will tank, try the same with a Cleric and you'll learn a new meaning for the word manasponge.

Coming from someone who used to raid Kunark, Velious, and Luclin on live as a Ranger, they are *not* tanks.
The ONLY time I'd step in and tank was if the MT fell, and the mob was ping-ponging throughout the raid. Then I'd spam aggro spells to position the mob, hit Weaponshield, and pray that the next tank in line could peel off me in time, because if not, I'd go splat in about 3 seconds.

Rangers can *maybe* tank some group-oriented stuff, but that's about it. And even then, it's generally painful. They're nowhere in the same category as the real tanks.

[webrunner5]

I play mostly healer classes on here. And I KNOW how much HP and durability different classes have. A Ranger just plain sucks ass as a Tank. If you had to heal the Bastards you would never play one again in a Tanking role. They are a total mana sinkhole healing one.

A Paladin is the least played class on P1999 for a reason, and a Ranger is the next least played. The Rangers will be a lot better in Velious solo wise. They will even suck more ass as a Tank in that expansion because of how hard the mobs will hit.

You live is some sort of dream world if you really think a Ranger is a good tank at any level, let alone high up. They are paper tanks just like Bards are.

[Noselacri]

Paladins are pretty much shit in raids. Their utility doesn't really stack, and 90% of it is rendered obsolete by the presence of a cleric which is guaranteed. They have Brell's and really weak heals, neither of which make a serious difference. An SK can offtank just as well while also taking on the role of FD puller, and do okayish DPS when not tanking, both of which are vastly superior to whatever a paladin can do.

The way to look at it is this: in what situation will any raid ever miss a paladin? When would they ever feel hindered by the absence of a paladin? You might bring one for Brell's, that's it, and that doesn't really make the whole class any good. You could just bring a buff bitch alt if it came to that, the actual presence of the paladin is largely pointless as they do nothing well. However, the SK fills one of the most crucial roles in the game, and the value of having a tank doing the FD pulling is not to be underestimated.

The only situation where I would ever even consider picking a paladin if I had other options is if I was taking a group to a place where CRing is a bitch and the healer is a druid or shaman. The ability to rez people is useful when your group is parked at the bottom of Sebilis. In terms of actual performance, paladin is basically the worst class in the game alongside ranger, one is just slightly more of a tank while the other leans towards DPS. They're like two sides of the same shitty coin, the two worst classes in this era by some distance.

[username17]

The usefulness and effectiveness of Warriors, Paladins, Shadowknights, or Rangers really depends on the setting.

You can generalize but it's going to be depend on if we're talking about Raiding or Grouping.
And to even further dig down you can break Raiding down between Casual and Hardcore.

On Hardcore raiding only (Ogre) Warriors will do. They will almost never take any other tank class.
On Casual raiding it's more based on whoever best fills the role. I can say as a low 50s paladin I have tanked Fear trash, shissar, all of the golems, and many epic kills with no problems at all. The benefit of a hybrid in this setting is the snap aggro and better mob control. Warriors fill the role fine but are often not needed. In my personal experience most of the warriors I raid with fill the role of DPS and not tank.
Also on the casual front most guilds seem to have a 'the more the merrier' attitude as there is no limit on the amount of players you can bring to a raid.

In either raid setting if you have a hybrid class who isn't tanking then it's all about filling a sub role such as DPS, Heals, support, etc. In the DPS role Shadowknights and Rangers will exceed a paladin. No doubt about it. Paladins can assist the enchanters with their 0 damage stuns and offtank mobs when needed. But as a Paladin I know my DPS is abysmal. It's not even something I try to improve. My focus is on HP/AC and Aggro.

On Grouping, this is where Knight shine the brightest.I don't really need to go into to much depth here. The only downside to knights here is the XP Penalty. But that's going away in Velious.

[Colgate]

paladins and shadowknights can tank p much every single raid mob in kunark except for maybe bee boss in sky and overseer of air

warriors will be the only class tanking a majority of raid mobs in velious

the idea of a cleric being as good at tanking as a paladin is just retarded

[webrunner5]

paladins and shadowknights can tank p much every single raid mob in kunark except for maybe bee boss in sky and overseer of air

warriors will be the only class tanking a majority of raid mobs in velious

the idea of a cleric being as good at tanking as a paladin is just retarded

I was just pulling peoples leg on the Cleric being better at DPS than a Pally. But as long as you have enough mana they can with their spells. But that does not last very long. :p But other than weapon skill gimped on them you hardly see much difference DPS wise because a Pally just plain sucks DPS wise. And a Cleric can wear plate just like a Pally and have probably as much AC or More. I am sure they have less damage mitigation as a Pally has, but, that is not saying much.

I do remember using a Pally in our Guild to pull in Kael a lot. They are good at splitting mobs with the lull line of spells, and living to get back while being hit in the ass. And was good at spot healing, some CC and Stuns. They did tank normal mobs in Velious well, but if you had a Warrior in there the Pally was going to be Main Assist to it.

The trouble with them, like has been said in here and other threads, is you are not going to lose much or any sleep if you do not have one in your group.

Now a Ranger I will give credit to IF they do not Tank, but if you have no other tank you will use one, Hell you have to have someone do it, is they are DAMN good pullers in outdoor zones, and damn good at CC in both outdoor and indoor. And they have better DPS than a Pally, and with Weaponshield you want 10 of them on a raid for first engagement. And they are great at standing up on a hill shooting a mob in the ass with arrows. With good dex they crit a lot. And well with their Tracking they are a god send.

But a Warrior is hands down the best Tank when Velious comes out. Meat Puppet for a reason.

[SCB]

Warriors are the second-worst melee for tanking in a leveling group. Their aggro management is terrible and literally nothing you can 1-group requires warrior durability over a knight, and almost nothing requires a knight over a monk/ranger.


In Kunark, 95%+ of the game is 1-grouping. For grouping in Kunark, top 3 group tanks (in order) are:
1: Paladin
2: SK
3: Ranger/Monk tied assuming the monk isnt a fungi/epic twink, in which case monk is 1st

In Velious, 90%+ of the game is 1-grouping. In Velious, top 3 group tanks (in order) are:
1: Monk
2: Paladin
3: SK

If you can't keep up even a moderately geared ranger/monk against some random KC mob, you're a terrible healer.

People bitch and moan about hybrids this and min/max that but it's all a bunch of crap. Just play a class you like. You'll be playing it for 100+ days of your life easily.

[sox7d]

A group with a paladin that has C and a moderate healer will have a bottle neck in mobs way before mana and agro won't be a problem.

A group with a shadowknight that has C and a moderate healer will be more likely to be waiting for priest's mana and agro won't be a problem.

Warriors are better raid tanks, but chances are you won't be a raid tank unless you're particularly ambitious and willing to invest that kind of time.

Anyone that thinks shadowknights are better than paladins probably shops at hot topic, writes deviantart poetry and nicknames themselves "Raven."

Case closed. Period.

[Taminy]

Warriors are the second-worst melee for tanking in a leveling group. Their aggro management is terrible and literally nothing you can 1-group requires warrior durability over a knight, and almost nothing requires a knight over a monk/ranger.


In Kunark, 95%+ of the game is 1-grouping. For grouping in Kunark, top 3 group tanks (in order) are:
1: Paladin
2: SK
3: Ranger/Monk tied assuming the monk isnt a fungi/epic twink, in which case monk is 1st

In Velious, 90%+ of the game is 1-grouping. In Velious, top 3 group tanks (in order) are:
1: Monk
2: Paladin
3: SK

If you can't keep up even a moderately geared ranger/monk against some random KC mob, you're a terrible healer.

People bitch and moan about hybrids this and min/max that but it's all a bunch of crap. Just play a class you like. You'll be playing it for 100+ days of your life easily.

On the other hand warriors make better melee/heal duo partner than any class besides monks.

[DrKvothe]

I don't really understand all the shit-talk against warriors as tanks. There are so few encounters where someone stealing aggro from the tank could cause a wipe. If the shaman gets aggro from slow, it just means the melees have to work a bit harder to reposition. Rogues should manage their aggro better, and monks can handle the attention. Wipes almost universally come from shit involving crowd control, pull snafus, etc. that have nothing to do with who has the attention of the dps target.

Questions about velious hybrid tanking:
1) Does the low defense skill cap for Rangers (200 iirc?) ever get lifted during velious?
2) How will capping AC from gear (350?) affect the ability of Rangers and even Bards to tank in situations that don't require defensive disc?

[Zapatos]

Sk's get a much better fast casting feign in velious and an improved rune, which is amazing if you've got plenty of peridots to use. SK's can regen hp to an extraordinary degree depending on your race/gear, minimizing healing needed on trash. Their ability to pump out insane amounts of snap aggro makes them ideal for anything that's not a boss. You'll understand when you see HoT raids with warriors that can't hold aggro.

Warriors unquestionably superior for boss fights

[Celatus]

I prefer warriors for most applications. Superior dps and mitigation. Paladins and Sk are awesome at what they do though which is why 3 tank classes exist.

[Aaramis]

Some of the disciplines added later on, such as the Warrior provoke, should have been put in at the very beginning :/

And the Luclin AA's, such as Area Taunt, really put Warrior where it should be.

[Cecily]

Wipes almost universally come from shit involving crowd control, pull snafus, etc. that have nothing to do with who has the attention of the dps target.

To be fair, 100% of wipes have everything to do with who has the attention of the mob(s). Also, if you're gonna say that DPS should be managing their aggro better, which I agree with BTW, quit... pulling... aggro... on... slow. You are murdering every melee's enjoyment of the game when you do that. Or maybe, just maybe, change your position so that when you pull aggro the whole group doesn't have to track the mob down and re-position.

[Cecily]

The only thing missing is lower caps on Melee skills on the Cleric, but just saying a Cleric is no slouch as a Tank.

Coming from the person who preaches against ranger tanks every chance he gets, that is hilarious.

[thieros]

Since RnF is dead, this thread delivers a close substitute

[Danth]

BTW, quit... pulling... aggro... on... slow.

Sometimes that's easier said than done!

Last time my wife was on a raid (albeit with warrior tanks who don't have VP gear), she couldn't slow at 90% without pulling hate. So she'd wait till 75%. No go, still pulled hate. So wait till 50%....STILL pulled aggro most every time. So she just stopped slowing at all. Didn't pull hate anymore!

There'll never be full agreement with respect to the tank classes in this game because they're all flawed. No matter which one you pick you have significant limitations you have to deal with. So pick your poison. Newer games have done a better job of implementing their tank classes; with P1999 we just accept the bad with the good. With respect to the thread title, SK (and Paladin) versus Warrior doesn't really change much in Velious. They have the same relative strengths versus each other and are favored in the same aspects of gameplay where they already are.

Danth

[Jontheripper]

To be fair, 100% of wipes have everything to do with who has the attention of the mob(s). Also, if you're gonna say that DPS should be managing their aggro better, which I agree with BTW, quit... pulling... aggro... on... slow. You are murdering every melee's enjoyment of the game when you do that. Or maybe, just maybe, change your position so that when you pull aggro the whole group doesn't have to track the mob down and re-position.

When i accidentally pull aggro, i just run straight towards my tank and stand between his legs (halfli.g) and hope he can peel it off before i die, dont make the tank chase mobs.

[webrunner5]

Coming from the person who preaches against ranger tanks every chance he gets, that is hilarious.

How did you EVER get the idea that a Ranger WAS a Tank??

If you go to the Class Discussions Forum on P1999 there is NO mention of a Ranger in the Tank section. I would think Nibog and friends know a thing or two about that. Nuff said.

They are in the Melee Forum. BIG difference. :o

[kaev]

How did you EVER get the idea that a Ranger WAS a Tank??

If you go to the Class Discussions Forum on P1999 there is NO mention of a Ranger in the Tank section. I would think Nibog and friends know a thing or two about that. Nuff said.

They are in the Melee Forum. BIG difference. :o

LOL, just fucking LOL. Seriously dude do you pay any attention to how this game works? Ranger is a tank. A gimped tank, it's true, but still a tank. Ranger easily fills the tank role in a competent XP group, more easily than a Warrior on p99 where 99% of the players are idiots about agro management. My Cleric and Druid are happy to heal competent Ranger tanks, my Ranger would rather pull & dps but tanks just fine in regular group content. It doesn't matter what textures the model is painted with, it matters what abilities the class has. Rogue gets painted with the same texture as Ranger, but cannot tank worth a damn. Cleric gets painted with the same texture as Warrior/Paladin/SK but cannot tank well at all.

[webrunner5]

LOL, just fucking LOL. Seriously dude do you pay any attention to how this game works? Ranger is a tank. A gimped tank, it's true, but still a tank. Ranger easily fills the tank role in a competent XP group, more easily than a Warrior on p99 where 99% of the players are idiots about agro management. My Cleric and Druid are happy to heal competent Ranger tanks, my Ranger would rather pull & dps but tanks just fine in regular group content. It doesn't matter what textures the model is painted with, it matters what abilities the class has. Rogue gets painted with the same texture as Ranger, but cannot tank worth a damn. Cleric gets painted with the same texture as Warrior/Paladin/SK but cannot tank well at all.

There is no way in hell a Druid, without crack, is going to keep up with heals on a Ranger being the Tank. No way. I play all 3 healer classes and you are full of crap if you believe that. :o

Hell a Cleric is lucky to keep up with the heals on a Ranger. They are a total mana sink healing wise. They are a paper tank. No better than a Bard or a Rogue at doing it getting hit. They are basically a Leather class. And you are going to compare then to a Plate Class. Good luck with that.

They are great pullers in outdoor zones and have as good of DPS as a Warrior not in Zerker Mode, and great at Tracking and CC. But as a Tank well you had better ask a LOT of healers about that. I am in "camp mode" when some jackass suggests we use a Ranger as a tank, as me being the healer. I got better things to do than being OOM all the time trying to save a groups ass healing a gimpy tank Ranger.

[Gotze]

Enchanter + shaman + cleric in same group = any other 3 classes can fill the void imho


On topic though , warrior gets mighty beefy in velious, but holy shit insta aggro in xp groups + mini farms is nice

[thieros]

There is no way in hell a Druid, without crack, is going to keep up with heals on a Ranger being the Tank. No way. I play all 3 healer classes and you are full of crap if you believe that. :o

Hell a Cleric is lucky to keep up with the heals on a Ranger. They are a total mana sink healing wise. They are a paper tank. No better than a Bard or a Rogue at doing it getting hit. They are basically a Leather class. And you are going to compare then to a Plate Class. Good luck with that.

They are great pullers in outdoor zones and have as good of DPS as a Warrior not in Zerker Mode, and great at Tracking and CC. But as a Tank well you had better ask a LOT of healers about that. I am in "camp mode" when some jackass suggests we use a Ranger as a tank, as me being the healer. I got better things to do than being OOM all the time trying to save a groups ass healing a gimpy tank Ranger.

you come off as an unpleasant fellow and i disagree with your opinions. I've concluded you have room for improvement in your playstyle if you cant keep a ranger up with your cleric or shaman. Be effecient and use your tools wisely instead of calling people jackasses for inviting a class that is not a warrior and complaining about your OOM. A properly played ranger is super dank. They pull, CC themselves, self heal during downtime(regen too), agro magnets, track and pull you delicious loot mobs.

credentials: see sig

[indiscriminate_hater]

you come off as an unpleasant fellow and i disagree with your opinions. I've concluded you have room for improvement in your playstyle if you cant keep a ranger up with your cleric or shaman. Be effecient and use your tools wisely instead of calling people jackasses for inviting a class that is not a warrior and complaining about your OOM. A properly played ranger is super dank. They pull, CC themselves, self heal during downtime(regen too), agro magnets, track and pull you delicious loot mobs.

credentials: see sig

fair points, but there is a big difference between tanking in a level 51 group and tanking in a level 60 group

[kaev]

fair points, but there is a big difference between tanking in a level 51 group and tanking in a level 60 group

That's true, in a L60 group the buffs are probably strong enough to let the Bard tank. We're not talking raid mobs here.

[Cecily]

I enjoy 60 epic bards as tanks very much. Ranger or bard is what I want tanking for me in exp groups. It takes a little bit of extra support and competent players to make it work, but wow it makes for fun parties.

[captnamazing]

rangers will obviously take more damage but are totally competent tanks as long as a group knows how to adjust for it. I have known rangers to tank seb king and HS south, and personally known the clerics healing them. No complaints from the healers.

[webrunner5]

That's true, in a L60 group the buffs are probably strong enough to let the Bard tank. We're not talking raid mobs here.

I need to get the Drugs you take.:eek::eek: You are telling me a Bard is going to Tank toe to toe with a 55 plus level mob and we are all going to be happy as hell in the group. Maybe the Bard is??:p Well at least till he dies. :) Bards are worse Tanks than a Ranger is. And that is saying something.

If your idea of a fun group is to have to rez a Bard or Ranger 6 times in 3 hours in a group, and being able to have sex, and probably cook a meal every 10 minutes while the Healer meds up, well have at it. Well maybe the sex part is ok, but every 10 minutes, not sure about that. :eek:

Hell lets have Rogues Tank also. They are in the same class as a Bard and Ranger.

[Cecily]

I've tanked chef camp on my rogue, np. Went well. Thornstinger / Nightfall / 41% haste boots worked out p good.

[Nuktari]

Let the cleric tank, they wear plate!

http://media1.giphy.com/media/xVOaPynULNH4Q/200.gif

Warrior is more valuable I think.

[Danth]

What are these oh so dangerous monsters that are killing people 5 or 6 times a session? This is Project 1999: Kunark we're talking about, right? It's not Planes of Power or something where a generic group experience monster can whack off 20% of a tank's life in a bad round. Normal high-level monsters here hit for what, 180 or 200 or so? The Shaman can tank that if he really wants to....or if he doesn't want to but has a Warrior trying to tank.

The tank classes aren't strictly necessary for typical Kunark group content, even at high levels. Rather, most groups like having someone tank and most the players who enjoy that job pick the tank classes.

Danth

[webrunner5]

What are these oh so dangerous monsters that are killing people 5 or 6 times a session? This is Project 1999: Kunark we're talking about, right? It's not Planes of Power or something where a generic group experience monster can whack off 20% of a tank's life in a bad round. Normal high-level monsters here hit for what, 180 or 200 or so? The Shaman can tank that if he really wants to....or if he doesn't want to but has a Warrior trying to tank.

The tank classes aren't strictly necessary for typical Kunark group content, even at high levels. Rather, most groups like having someone tank and most the players who enjoy that job pick the tank classes.

Danth

I am not saying they die, it is that the Healers are OOM a lot of the time healing them. And it has been my experience that after a few times of having to sit for 5 , 6 minutes at a time to Med there is a higher chance that someone in the group uses it for a legitimate excuse or not to leave the group, and the next thing you know the group is over with..

It just screws up the flow of the group. Kill 3 mobs and sit. Kill 3 mobs and sit. No one wants that stuff in the long run. Hell a Enchanter can Tank, but that does not mean it is desirable. There IS a reason people want a Tank in a group. And having sort of Tanks I guess is better than nothing, but it usually does not work out in the long run is what I am saying.

[kaev]

I am not saying they die, it is that the Healers are OOM a lot of the time healing them. And it has been my experience that after a few times of having to sit for 5 , 6 minutes at a time to Med there is a higher chance that someone in the group uses it for a legitimate excuse or not to leave the group, and the next thing you know the group is over with..

It just screws up the flow of the group. Kill 3 mobs and sit. Kill 3 mobs and sit. No one wants that stuff in the long run. Hell a Enchanter can Tank, but that does not mean it is desirable. There IS a reason people want a Tank in a group. And having sort of Tanks I guess is better than nothing, but it usually does not work out in the long run is what I am saying.

group with better healers?

[maskedmelon]

group with better healers?

I would second this.

[Taminy]

Just root the mob. Grouping with knights is for lazy casters :p