Why do Wizards get so much hate?

[Gregor]

Isn't everyone greatly devaluing the ability to 3 shot mobs in groups? This combined with roots, stuns, AE seem more then reason enough to bring a Wizard.

Almost every group has a chanter for clarity as well so I don't see what the big issue is?

[loramin]

It's very simple: in raids you want as much damage as possible at once, and in groups you want as much sustained damage as possible. It doesn't matter if you can 3 shot a mob in groups because (even with Clarity) you're going to need to med for awhile afterwards. Meanwhile the rogue couldn't 3-shot the mob, but he does roughly a third (to make my math simple) of each mob's life, and keeps doing it mob after mob.

So if you consider the twot over the course of five mobs (assuming it takes you about that long to regen your mana):

Wizard: 100%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0% = 100%
Rogue: 33%, 33%, 33%, 33%, 33% = 165%

Now the exact numbers may vary: maybe you only need four mobs to replenish your mana, or maybe the rogue actually does 37%. But even if you crunch with real numbers you'll find the same thing: certain classes (eg. rogues) offer more damage over time than certain other classes (eg. wizards).

P.S. Just to be clear, I'm not saying Wizards don't have value in groups; I'm only saying that if you focus on sustained damage over time they can't compete with many other classes, just as other classes can't compete with them when it comes to focused "burn" damage.

[Gregor]

I never meant to imply a Wizards damage competes with a rogue but really no class does. What I mean is the ability to burn in groups can be very useful. For instance, burning down casters or killing your current mob because charm broke/mez resisted can be very useful.

Also at least half the groups I've joined cannot just chain pull endlessly, though maybe most groups do? Doesn't seem that way though. If the mobs get some lucky rolls on a tank the rogue isn't going to save him but a stun or ice comet might.

I guess if every pug group was amazing and chain pulling non stop in a zone with no competition, sure sustained is king. But these kind of groups seem few and far between to me, in which case the Wizard would excel having a chance to med. Camping spawns seems even more in favor wizard since mana is no object and he can evac trains. Am I missing something?

[Heavydrop]

For instance, burning down casters or killing your current mob because charm broke/mez resisted can be very useful.


A good point as well as the sustained damage aspect.
What I've seen over my years of playing (not usually as a wizard) is that
some of those who play wizards are not so skilled at mitigating or moderating how much
damage they do to a mob and therefore the aggro they gain. They go for big damage and it gets resisted or does partial damage and then *splat* dead wizard

The stuns and roots are great but create a lot of aggro and with tanks having
the issue of gaining and holding aggro as they do at times people don't want
to make things harder by having someone in the group that gains aggro and wears
a bathrobe.

[Danth]

I think the folks who play Wizards are a big part of the problem with that class. Most of the Wizards I grouped with while leveling would blow their mana bar on one or two monsters then go AFK for upwards of 10 minutes (often with unsolicited mention of how high/stoned they were). Rinse and repeat. Talking to other players suggests that many other folks often have the same experience when they'd invite Wizards to their own groups. Good Wizard players are out there--I can think of at least one myself--but they face an uphill battle for acceptance due to all the dead weight giving the class a bad reputation.

Danth

[Fame]

Play your wizard on red and kill anyone who will not clarity you or group with you, thank me later.

[Jimjam]

I created my wizard for when I wanna play eq but also need to be able to pop AFK at a moments notice. #partoftheproblem

Sometimes I'll do things like time stuns/nukes to interrupt heals or stop a mob beating on the enchanter (who is more important to the group than me) or root the mob on the tank to let him take aggro more easily... but generally I just poop out all my mana and go AFK cos if I wanted to play a more engaging class I would :P.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Play your wizard on red and kill anyone who will not clarity you or group with you, thank me later.

Would clarity this friendly wizard anyday.

[Whirled]

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftobiasmastgrave.files.wordpress.co m%2F2012%2F08%2Fdesktop-wizard.jpg&f=1
Lv55 wiz lfg

[maskedmelon]

Play your wizard on red and kill anyone who will not clarity you or group with you, thank me later.

I like it, a mutually beneficial arrangement straight out of Chicago!

[ko37qtl]

A well played wizard is a boon to a dungeon group, particularly when casters are involved, even with an enchanter. They're less valuable in steady pulling outdoor groups but those verge on dull for me. A poorly played wizard is a hassle for everyone out of proportion with the potential upsides, so it's easy to see why they might not be the most welcome until you know what kind of wizard is in the group and that the group is doing things where a wizard really shines.

[Gregor]

I guess my point/question is the only time Wizard dps isn't good is if the group is chain pulling with no downtime at all and infinite mobs to pull, which seems pretty rare to me.

Even if your group is amazing chances are you'll be sitting a lot waiting for stuff to spawn in places like CoM or waiting for placeholders in seb, etc. On the other hand if you get unlucky with resists your dps gets even worse but even that backstab misses and rolls low often also.

[Bristlebard]

How high level does a mage need to be for his pet to do more sustained DPS than a 60 wizard? Like 44? :D

[ghost182]

When you need a tank CC puller and healer every group... Only leaves 2 spots. Most people want a shaman for one and a rogue for the other

[Tuljin]

I think the folks who play Wizards are a big part of the problem with that class. Most of the Wizards I grouped with while leveling would blow their mana bar on one or two monsters then go AFK for upwards of 10 minutes (often with unsolicited mention of how high/stoned they were). Rinse and repeat.

This is really the chief problem with Wizard players. Most people roll a Wizard with the expressed interest of wanting to AFK, and having a misconception of how to play from the beginning. Comically enough the majority of Clerics have this same mindset and have a very similar playstyle, however CH is OP and they can get away with it, despite how much you'll bitch when the tank doesn't get his heal till he is under 10% health.

Adding to the depth of the Wizard hate dilemma is the Chardok AOE phenomenon. Not only do you have people who roll a class just to AFK, you now have a class that rolls just to AFK and get easy XP in Chardok only. There is a mass proliferation of players who don't see any dungeon time, and when they crank out to 60 they just portbot or park their toon for raids.

Really its just a bunch of hot air being blown around and the P99 hivemind regurgitating buzzhate. Wizard really is only "weak" in dungeons against Kunark mobs. Up to level 50 Wizard actually deals huge damage relative to total mob HP, and the stun/snare/root CC (along with Evac) is very helpful in the notoriously tricky 30s-40s dungeons.

Even in your 50s against mobs which have relatively high HP, you can still do fine contributing to a group by keeping up the chain pull by pulling with Flux Staff, dispelling, chain interrupting key spells from caster mobs (Seb in particular), utility CC (Snare is very important in dungeons) and dispels (who the hell is is gonna do it lol), stunning and getting agro off of people who shouldn't have it (charm breaks esp) and root parking (LOS for casters) and if you pace yourself your DPS really isn't for nothing. Fetter is really the best CC tool for Howling Stones, and if you are 58+, you can contribute to pulling the 3 and 4 split rooms very effectively. There are very few bona fide caster mobs there, reducing the need for mesmerize as CC. Wizard is also excellent for pulling on a Hole dungeon crawl with Flux Staff.

Really the point is Wizard is only as boring as you make it. EQ is a fun game and its the dungeon crawls and mob behavior that make the game exciting. I have a lot of fun playing Wizard and I played one way before it was cool, and got him XP to 60 in dungeons without Chardok AOE and without the help of a tiny guild where everybody was already 60. It requires a serious paradigm shift in your playstyle, however. With stun/snare/root/concussion you really shouldn't have anything to fear when it comes to tagging a mob with Flux staff and parking it somewhere, or tossing a stun out to get some agro off someone who shouldn't have it. Just make sure you have a stack of Jaspers and keep casting Steelskin =)

At level 60 its a different story - not only are you very effective CC and utility in planes/dungeons, your mana bar also becomes a devastating weapon against all the odd level 60+ mobs around Norrath that need muscle to be killed. Last nite I was part of a Paladin/Wiz duo that showed up to save the day on a very serious mob - - the two "shittiest" classes BTW.

TL;DR - If you can pull your own weight on Wiz and you learn how to play the game you can make friends and they will have no problems playing with you

[Gregor]

All that said don't things get much worse for Wizard in Velious where raid mobs go from 50k hp's to 1million? Combined with dungeon mob health going up, making it harder to burn stuff down on a bad pull.

[Fishbait]

This is prefaced by talking about full groups in the 20-40 range:

It's basically a double edged sword. If you are in a situation where a wizard is useful, it means your group is ineffective. The amount of xp your group is earning on average is probably awful compared to the group that is chain pulling and that is what a group should strive to do.

Any CC they can do, can be covered by another class, any dps they can do, another class can do better. Wizards are simply terrible group mates in the 20-40 range, so maybe this stigma carries on into the later content.

[Raev]

IMHO the biggest problem Wizards have is the horrible, miserable, unforgiveably bad itemization of Classic EQ. A L55 wizard is still casting the same spells he would have 2 months after Kunark came out, while the Rogue has upgraded from a Crystalline Spear or maybe a Rapier of Orinn and a RBG or even a FBSS to Ragebringer.

[Tuljin]

All that said don't things get much worse for Wizard in Velious where raid mobs go from 50k hp's to 1million? Combined with dungeon mob health going up, making it harder to burn stuff down on a bad pull.

Wizard gets a better regular elemental nuke that is a little more efficient than Sunkstrike but still the answer to a bad pull for a Wizard is flux tag/stun then fetter park and after turn the heat up if your mana bar can handle it. Its way better to help with CC and catch unwanted agro from other party members on a bad pull as first priority rather than just burn.

As far as high HP raid targets are concerned, it depends on how you look at it. 9 Lure of Ices on a 100k target is about 7% of total damage. You have a 40 man raid - 7% out of 40 people total is really not bad. Now picture 3-4 (or more) wizards. The thing is, Wizards deal this damage quickly, in good chunks at a time with each volley.

Take the uber dragon/uber giant nukes that do 2k damage each but have limited targets. On high HP uber mobs a Wizard can deal a similar percentage of total damage with these spells. Then we get multiple wizards and you see team Wizard again doing a large chunk of total damage.

Lets not forget about Translocate, either - a dramatic upgrade to the current port spells.

[DrKvothe]

Is it correct to assume that wizards need less support than melee dps? They'll need fewer heals and be less likely to die early in the encounter? I suspect a ranger's 60-70 'sustained' dps is more like <10 if he's a corpse for most of the encounter.

[Tuljin]

Belly casters with AOE spells can wreck Wizards pretty badly, so it depends on the mob.

I mean for all the Wizard hate floating around out there, there's a reason there were at the very least 50-60 new level 60 Wizards that were Chardok AOE powerleveled in the past year. There was around 50 on the server before it really became a serious operation around the beginning of 2014, now theres well over 100 - which is a highly disproportionate number relative to the total number of Wizards that have been rolled.

What began initially as a plan for a certain guild to get a bunch of Wizards quick and easy has become a plan for other guilds to get a bunch of 60 Wizards quick and easy. Lets keep scratching our heads thinking about this one, ladies and gentlemen.

[Gregor]

Well when I mention Wizard hate I primarily mean group play. Of course they're amazing in kunark raids but I don't think that holds up in velious.

[Nazareth73]

Hsagra's Wrath and Porlos' Fury.

[Whirled]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Category:Quests

^Looking for Wizard.... ok, W... warrior....uh....



Wizard Epic Quest (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wizard_Epic_Quest)
Wizard Kael Armor Quests (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wizard_Kael_Armor_Quests)
Wizard Plane of Sky Tests (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wizard_Plane_of_Sky_Tests)
Wizard Skyshrine Armor Quests (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wizard_Skyshrine_Armor_Quests)
Wizard Spells (Evil) (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wizard_Spells_%28Evil%29)
Wizard Spells (Good) (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wizard_Spells_%28Good%29)
Wizard Thurgadin Armor Quests (http://wiki.project1999.com/Wizard_Thurgadin_Armor_Quests)

not too much to choose from

[Nirgon]

Stamina aka endurance isn't working here.... yet

That should balance the groups scene a bit

[Teneran]

Hsagra's Wrath and Porlos' Fury.

From my experience on Live, Hsagra's Wrath isn't so great because it seemed to have huge aggro. We'd pull the giant off the MT routinely with that spell. On the other hand, Porlo's Fury was awesome. Because it's not resistable you can stand out of AoE range and chain cast; for some reason the mechanics were such that the aggro seemed very very low.

Wizards are definitely useful in Velious from my Live experience.

[Tuljin]

not too much to choose from

You left out the Growth and Mischief sets which actually have some very nice pieces. There is Blue Diamond resist gear in Velious as well as some good other HP pieces.

All of the uber Velious gear everyone has their tightey whiteys in a bunch about is All/All and drops off the toughest mobs. Wizards will be low on the list for these items, and guilds will want their main tanks and melee DPS with them. A very very small percentage of players will have these, and they are already claimed. Other than that if you look at all the other Velious gear you'll still find some BIS that is from Kunark.

That and people generally have no idea how to gear an INT caster, hence the abundance of Wizards on this server well over softcap and even hardcap.

[Whirled]

Hey thanks for the extra info. (=
Hopefully my uber-casualness wont hinder my chances but obviously, FCFS

[Vellaen]

Stamina aka endurance isn't working here.... yet

That should balance the groups scene a bit

My main on live was a warrior. I still remember asking for "zings" from clerics and enchanters, and preferring the Augmentation line of haste for the bonus to stamina regen (and the AC). Also shaking my head at the folks who used Wurmslayers: "Why would anyone want to use a weapon that heavy?"