Question for GMs: Forward LNS

[Samhain]

An incident occurred last night that requires some lawyerquesting. Holocaust/Fresh were operating a PVP block in Feerrot from a force in Fear. A player on LNS was allowed to loot their corpse and then immediately ninja ran into Fear.

I understand that in the past LNS in Skyfire did not allow you to LNS into VP. I believe it would fall under this statute:
In large scale PvP there is no limit to the number of zones a force can be locked out of. If a fight took place across multiple zones the lockout will apply to all zones a PvP related death occurred in.

Could we please get a clarification on forward progress in force PVP?

[MavstabYoudead]

plane of fear was never contested. when did the fight take place in plane of fear? fresh too scared to zone in and holo wasnt' allowed to. enjoy the bans.

should worry about your own rule breaking. want to post pictures of the "ogre wall"? didn't even work well, but against the rules.

[Sirken]

Bind-point/Corpse Camping and Loot and Scoot (LnS)

Killing someone over and over again while at his or her bind-point or while they are in the process of looting and scooting is illegal and may result in disciplinary action taken against your account.

Conversely, the person recovering their corpse is expected to do so and retreat to safety promptly. In other words, sitting next to your corpse and taunting someone while daring them to attack you so that you can /petition them is bad form, and may result in disciplinary action taken against your account.

A player is 'Looting and Scooting' (LnSing) when he has died to an opponent and opts to call Loot and Scoot. You must make your intentions clear that you are loot and scooting by communicating with the other people in the zone(s) you move through, as well as with the person who killed you, or your LnS claim will not be valid, and you can be killed. You may call Loot and Scoot in any zone after respawning from death so long as you head straight for your corpse. If you need to move across multiple zones in order to Loot and Scoot, you must call LnS as you move through each zone. If a new player enters the zone, you must call Loot and Scoot so they are aware of your intentions. You may not attack or be attacked while Loot and Scooting. After retrieving your corpse, you are allowed a short amount of time to med enough mana to safely get out of the zone (ie, enough for a couple casts of invisibility, FD, or a port spell), memorize those spells, and then must leave the zone immediately for 1 hour. This timer will start after the last person has exited the zone. If multiple players died in PvP and all choose to LnS, they may help each other do so (IE, res each other, drag corpses, port, etc) unless they have already opted out of LnS by fighting after death. After you have left the zone, you are considered to have finished Loot and Scooting, and may again be attacked.

calling LnS from pure PvE deaths is not allowed.

If you are killed and opt to fight instead of calling Loot and Scoot, you forfeit any later opportunities to invoke LnS. If you log out you may return in 1 hour and call Loot and Scoot.

In large scale PvP (7 or more players on both sides), LnS must be called by a force as a whole. Individuals may not invoke Loot and Scoot. LnS may be called by the force at any time, this option may never be forfeited. If a fight took place across multiple zones, the force is considered to have finished LnS'ing once all of their players have left the zones affected. All other LnS rules still apply.

In regular PvP, you can only ever have one zone lockout active per group of players at any time. If a fight occurred across multiple zones, the winning group picks which zone the lockout will apply to.

In large scale PvP there is no limit to the number of zones a force can be locked out of. If a fight took place across multiple zones the lockout will apply to all zones a PvP related death occurred in.

Excessive bind point camping (killing a player over and over at their bind point) is against the rules.

Excessive killing of a player or group after they have finished LnSing may be stopped by a Project 1999 CSR, but is not against the rules.

The P99CSR in attendance will decide what is reasonable in these cases. It is highly recommended that the people involved make equitable arrangements prior to involving the Project 1999 Customer Service Staff.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1430853&postcount=1

[Ragnaros]

Perfectly legal, learn to read pnp rules.

[MavstabYoudead]

So sirken was the holo-fresh alliance correct in trying to dictate which zones could be used to LnS out of feerott, or were they violating the ruleset?

[krazyGlue]

Don't shit up this thread we need a clear understanding of these rules

[heartbrand]

Coffee = Rettiwalk. Seven years of post grad education paying off for me.

[MEGANS LAW]

Coffee = Rettiwalk. Seven years of post grad education paying off for me.

[Samhain]

No, Sirken.

If you read my post you would note the quote came from the block you posted. That means I myself read it and it was/is still unclear. I would appreciate your not being so dismissive of a legitimate question that was pertinent to literally half the server last night.

[MavstabYoudead]

No, Sirken.

If you read my post you would note the quote came from the block you posted. I would appreciate your not being so dismissive of a legitimate question that was pertinent to literally half the server last night.

what large scale pvp took place. at no time did we have 7 or more in feerott against your force:

http://i60.tinypic.com/dc7osi.png

[HippoNipple]

Mav that screenshot has nothing to do with the question. Someone from your raid 2 boxed to get on a level 1 and take a screenshot, grats.

This guy is trying to get clarity on a question and it really is valid. A guild is raiding and running through a zone to final destination. People that die, are they allowed to call LnS and then use the LnS to progress to the next raid zone.

[MavstabYoudead]

Mav that screenshot has nothing to do with the question. Someone from your raid 2 boxed to get on a level 1 and take a screenshot, grats.

This guy is trying to get clarity on a question and it really is valid. A guild is raiding and running through a zone to final destination. People that die, are they allowed to call LnS and then use the LnS to progress to the next raid zone.

or someone that didn't get a character there, but tin foil hat away...

plane of fear was not contested. at no point was it ever contested. hope you learned the spectre caves...

[Widan]

This guy is trying to get clarity on a question and it really is valid. A guild is raiding and running through a zone to final destination. People that die, are they allowed to call LnS and then use the LnS to progress to the next raid zone.

Yes, why wouldn't they be? If you want to block them from Fear you need to kill them again in Fear and force a LNS there.

[Widan]

In case you are too illiterate to get through the entire LNS sticky here is the pertinent part:


In regular PvP, you can only ever have one zone lockout active per group of players at any time. If a fight occurred across multiple zones, the winning group picks which zone the lockout will apply to.


So, unless you fought them in Fear and Feerrott both, you cannot lock them out of Fear.

[Jarlon]

So, unless you fought them in Fear and Feerrott both, you cannot lock them out of Fear.

Yeah but they decided they could lock us out of fear, employ illegal tactics such as level 1 ogre walls, and just blatantly repeat over and over where we are allowed to go. I would really like to see some suspensions out of Holo and Fresh for this. If they are going to continue to cheat and train in PVE it is really not health to the server if the punishments dont continue to get more and more severe.

[lite]

Weird, read Sirken's reply and I read nothing about how you have to let your enemy loot and scoot, unless they are zoning to PoFear.

[Pikrib]

An incident occurred last night that requires some lawyerquesting. Holocaust/Fresh were operating a PVP block in Feerrot from a force in Fear. A player on LNS was allowed to loot their corpse and then immediately ninja ran into Fear.

I understand that in the past LNS in Skyfire did not allow you to LNS into VP. I believe it would fall under this statute:


Could we please get a clarification on forward progress in force PVP?

The guy calling LnS from feerot last night would have to be considered calling Force LnS because the fight involved more than 7 people on both sides the fight happened across multiple zones. He can't call LnS as an individual it has to be his whole "Force".

After the person called LnS (You don't have to say "Force") and loots his corpse + leaves affected zones. Azrael+supporting guilds are locked out of anywhere the fight was taking place CT, Feerot, SK, NK, RM and Lake Rathe for 1 hour.

The guy calling LnS from Feerot can zone into Fear if it was "Force" LnS.

Thats all I got boys. Rules should probably say the word "Force" is required.

[HippoNipple]

In case you are too illiterate to get through the entire LNS sticky here is the pertinent part:



So, unless you fought them in Fear and Feerrott both, you cannot lock them out of Fear.

That sentence doesn't really address the situation, which is why the post was made. Then someone posted a screenshot of people in a zone that added nothing.

When it is guild vs guild and a raid target is in question and someone calls LnS it needs to be more clear on how it would be handled.

If two guilds are going for trak and the big battle goes on in TT and one guild calls LnS they shouldn't be aloud to med up and then go back and attack the other guild while engaging Trak in Seb.

That obviously isn't the intent of LnS rules and it would be a bitch move if a guild used the LnS to do this.

[heartbrand]

Seems like a loophole that should be looked into. This isn't the U.S. Constitution here folks, it was a quickly put together with no community input set of rules. Let's work to close the loop hole. Are people going to be able to LNS into ToV from WW?

[MavstabYoudead]

The guy calling LnS from feerot last night would have to be considered calling Force LnS because the fight involved more than 7 people on both sides the fight happened across multiple zones. He can't call LnS as an individual it has to be his whole "Force".

After the person called LnS (You don't have to say "Force") and loots his corpse + leaves affected zones. Azrael+supporting guilds are locked out of anywhere the fight was taking place CT, Feerot, SK, NK, RM and Lake Rathe for 1 hour.

The guy calling LnS from Feerot can zone into Fear if it was "Force" LnS.

Thats all I got boys. Rules should probably say the word "Force" is required.

false at no time did we have 7 or more players in feerott.

[MavstabYoudead]

That sentence doesn't really address the situation, which is why the post was made. Then someone posted a screenshot of people in a zone that added nothing.

When it is guild vs guild and a raid target is in question and someone calls LnS it needs to be more clear on how it would be handled.

If two guilds are going for trak and the big battle goes on in TT and one guild calls LnS they shouldn't be aloud to med up and then go back and attack the other guild while engaging Trak in Seb.

That obviously isn't the intent of LnS rules and it would be a bitch move if a guild used the LnS to do this.

holocaust couldn't contest fear hence it was not contested.

[HippoNipple]

holocaust couldn't contest fear hence it was not contested.

The point of the post was for the rule to be clearly stated for the future. You keep posting the same irrelevant shit over and over. Take a nap.

[Nirgon]

Don't shit up this thread we need a clear understanding of these rules

[Pikrib]

false at no time did we have 7 or more players in feerott.

In large scale PvP (7 or more players on both sides), LnS must be called by a force as a whole. Individuals may not invoke Loot and Scoot. LnS may be called by the force at any time, this option may never be forfeited. If a fight took place across multiple zones, the force is considered to have finished LnS'ing once all of their players have left the zones affected. All other LnS rules still apply.

If you have 3 players in CT, 3 in Feerot and 1 in RM it is still "Force" LnS.

[Pseudechis]

The LNS rules say loot and "retreat" to safety. Moving forward to an objective is hardly "retreating".

Moving people through on groups of 3 to dodge the Force LNS when clearly each of those 3 was part of a larger force is also trying to dodge following the rules and well dodge the PVP.

Sirken it's a pretty easy one to provide guidance on, is it ok for someone To use LNS to bypass a contested zone for an objective?

[MavstabYoudead]

If you have 3 players in CT, 3 in Feerot and 1 in RM it is still "Force" LnS.

did pvp occur in all those zones? also was holocaust contesting PoF while raid suspended?

seemed pretty "safe" in PoF Nakor.

[Widan]

When it is guild vs guild and a raid target is in question and someone calls LnS it needs to be more clear on how it would be handled.


It cannot be made any clearer than it already is. If you lack reading comprehension that's your issue.


If two guilds are going for trak and the big battle goes on in TT and one guild calls LnS they shouldn't be aloud to med up and then go back and attack the other guild while engaging Trak in Seb.


Why shouldn't they? What if pvp goes on in Erudin then one guild calls LNS and the other one ports up to Sky? Should the guild on LNS not be allowed to port up to Sky and fight them there afterwards?

If you want to lock out a group from a zone through pvp then you need to fight them in that zone, not in a zone nearby.

[Pikrib]

holocaust couldn't contest fear hence it was not contested.

<Fresh> was in zone and they could contest, and probably were considered part of a force+were involved in the force pvp.

Did any Fresh pvp Azrael in Fear before LnS was called? I don't think this was the case so the Azrael force could LnS into fear if they died in Feerot.

[MavstabYoudead]

did they contest? never saw 7 or more of them in fear at any point. think I saw one guy zone in periodically. saw a lot of green text from them though.

[JudgementRed]

So sirken was the holo-fresh alliance correct in trying to dictate which zones could be used to LnS out of feerott, or were they violating the ruleset?


Since you can't even manage to read Sirken's own post in this thread ..... I'll fucking spoon-feed you the exact rule that verifies that Holocaust can dictate the zones that LNS applies.



In large scale PvP (7 or more players on both sides), LnS must be called by a force as a whole. Individuals may not invoke Loot and Scoot. LnS may be called by the force at any time, this option may never be forfeited. If a fight took place across multiple zones, the force is considered to have finished LnS'ing once all of their players have left the zones affected. All other LnS rules still apply.

In regular PvP, you can only ever have one zone lockout active per group of players at any time. If a fight occurred across multiple zones, the winning group picks which zone the lockout will apply to.

In large scale PvP there is no limit to the number of zones a force can be locked out of. If a fight took place across multiple zones the lockout will apply to all zones a PvP related death occurred in.



https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1430853&postcount=1


I keep regular office hours if you need more help with reading comprehension Madstab

[Nirgon]

My concern is a result of basically that you shouldn't even bother trying to prevent people from zoning into fear. They can just take a death and LNS inside.

[Kergan]

To be fair if Holo wasn't locked out of the zone they could just follow them in and kill them (or from WW into ToV, etc). This really is sort of a one-off.

[MavstabYoudead]

My concern is a result of basically that you shouldn't even bother trying to prevent people from zoning into fear. They can just take a death and LNS inside.

but it helped your K:D ratio. you guys were able to get 3-4 kills with 55+ in zone and another 10-12 got into fear over time.

[Widan]

Since you can't even manage to read Sirken's own post in this thread ..... I'll fucking spoon-feed you the exact rule that verifies that Holocaust can dictate the zones that LNS applies.

That's only for 7+ on each side pvp. Furthermore, if none of that pvp happened in Fear then Fear isn't one of the zones you can choose, hth.

[HippoNipple]

It cannot be made any clearer than it already is. If you lack reading comprehension that's your issue.



Why shouldn't they? What if pvp goes on in Erudin then one guild calls LNS and the other one ports up to Sky? Should the guild on LNS not be allowed to port up to Sky and fight them there afterwards?

If you want to lock out a group from a zone through pvp then you need to fight them in that zone, not in a zone nearby.

You say the rules are clear and then use erudin/sky as an example to explain why a TT fight is irrelevant to Seb.

No one in their right mind would agree with you. If LnS wasn't around a guild could simply sit 1-2 groups on top of the corpses in TT and make sure no one looted until the raid was over. LnS allows the guild to loot and leave the situation so they don't have to waste time. LnS isn't in place to be used as a tactical advancement to get to a zone you couldn't through PvP/contesting.

It is not in place so a guild can loot/med under protection and then join the fight for the contested mob again.

[HippoNipple]

That's only for 7+ on each side pvp. Furthermore, if none of that pvp happened in Fear then Fear isn't one of the zones you can choose, hth.

So if 1 player from fresh ran into fear and attacked the 30 people in fear you would have no problem with the raid being shut down since that one guy called LnS in Feerrott?

[MavstabYoudead]

Since you can't even manage to read Sirken's own post in this thread ..... I'll fucking spoon-feed you the exact rule that verifies that Holocaust can dictate the zones that LNS applies.






I keep regular office hours if you need more help with reading comprehension Madstab

when did the fight occur across multiple zones? it happened in feerott. they can enforce LnS out of FEEROTT...

[Pseudechis]

but it helped your K:D ratio. you guys were able to get 3-4 kills with 55+ in zone and another 10-12 got into fear over time.

Are you aware that "retreat" means to go back, not go forward.

[MavstabYoudead]

So if 1 player from fresh ran into fear and attacked the 30 people in fear you would have no problem with the raid being shut down since that one guy called LnS?

No problem with what raid being shut down? If the 1 player from fresh died he could LnS out.

[Edgat]

Seems like a loophole that should be looked into. This isn't the U.S. Constitution here folks, it was a quickly put together with no community input set of rules. Let's work to close the loop hole. Are people going to be able to LNS into ToV from WW?

If the group in WW is too scared to enter ToV and engage the people inside that the few dying outside are trying to join up with then yes.

[MavstabYoudead]

Are you aware that "retreat" means to go back, not go forward.

please copy and paste the rules and highlight that word.

[HippoNipple]

No problem with what raid being shut down? If the 1 player from fresh died he could LnS out.

I'm not talking about the 1 fresh guy calling LnS. I'm saying the Azrael member that called LnS in Feerrott. If 1 fresh guy ran into fear then the fight went across multiple zones and the guy calling LnS from Azrael in Feerrott would shut down the whole raid.

You would be okay with this?

[MavstabYoudead]

I'm not talking about the 1 fresh guy calling LnS. I'm saying the Azrael member that called LnS in Feerrott. If 1 fresh guy ran into fear then the fight went across multiple zones and the guy calling LnS from Azrael in Feerrott would shut down the whole raid.

You would be okay with this?

was not mass pvp at that point, so no.

[MavstabYoudead]

Just going to sit back and wait for sirken to chime in more than he already has. Glad to see you guys breaking multiple rules yet again while already banned from the zone for breaking the rules.

[Pseudechis]

please copy and paste the rules and highlight that word.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148787

"Conversely, the person recovering their corpse is expected to do so and retreat to safety promptly. In other words, sitting next to your corpse and taunting someone while daring them to attack you so that you can /petition them is bad form, and may result in disciplinary action taken against your account."

Moving forward to an objective is not retreating to safety. It is bypassing PvP to achieve the desired outcome and is not the intent of LNS rules.

But hey all I did was read what Sirken posted, you could perhaps do the same before busting out the aspergers.

[Widan]

It is not in place so a guild can loot/med under protection and then join the fight for the contested mob again.

If a guild LNS' from TT then they need to leave the zone in a reasonable time frame. Their options are go into Seb, or go to another zone. As soon as they zone into Seb you can kill them again and force them to call LNS there. Or if they choose to go to another zone then they cannot go back into TT on the way to Seb for 1 hour, otherwise they are in violation of LNS policy.

I don't see what's so complicated about this. If you don't want them to LNS into Seb then kill them in Seb if they zone in, or petition if they don't leave TT within a reasonable time frame.

[HippoNipple]

was not mass pvp at that point, so no.

Got it. So send in 7 Fresh guys naked and punch an Azrael member so the dude who called LnS in Feerrott is valid for both Fear/Feerrott. Sounds like an exciting raiding environment and look forward to seeing this put into action in the future.

[MavstabYoudead]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148787

"Conversely, the person recovering their corpse is expected to do so and retreat to safety promptly. In other words, sitting next to your corpse and taunting someone while daring them to attack you so that you can /petition them is bad form, and may result in disciplinary action taken against your account."

Moving forward to an objective is not retreating to safety. It is bypassing PvP to achieve the desired outcome and is not the intent of LNS rules.

But hey all I did was read what Sirken posted, you could perhaps do the same before busting out the aspergers.

you do realize the first two sentences are on bind camping and then he goes on to talk about LnS rules, right? Didn't think you did....

[Widan]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148787
Moving forward to an objective is not retreating to safety. It is bypassing PvP to achieve the desired outcome and is not the intent of LNS rules.


Seems like zoning into Fear was moving to safety since Holocaust was barred from that zone and no pvp took place there though?

[MavstabYoudead]

Got it. So send in 7 Fresh guys naked and punch an Azrael member so the dude who called LnS in Feerrott is valid for both Fear/Feerrott. Sounds like an exciting raiding environment and look forward to seeing this put into action in the future.

thanks to you guys in VP we have these rules...

[krazyGlue]

The guy calling LnS from feerot last night would have to be considered calling Force LnS because the fight involved more than 7 people on both sides the fight happened across multiple zones. He can't call LnS as an individual it has to be his whole "Force".

After the person called LnS (You don't have to say "Force") and loots his corpse + leaves affected zones. Azrael+supporting guilds are locked out of anywhere the fight was taking place CT, Feerot, SK, NK, RM and Lake Rathe for 1 hour.

The guy calling LnS from Feerot can zone into Fear if it was "Force" LnS.

Thats all I got boys. Rules should probably say the word "Force" is required.

At no point in time did azrael have more then 5 in the Zone/ feerrot

[Nirgon]

We asked Sirken

Not Madstab

Get your eyes checked

[Edgat]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148787

"Conversely, the person recovering their corpse is expected to do so and retreat to safety promptly. In other words, sitting next to your corpse and taunting someone while daring them to attack you so that you can /petition them is bad form, and may result in disciplinary action taken against your account."

Moving forward to an objective is not retreating to safety. It is bypassing PvP to achieve the desired outcome and is not the intent of LNS rules.

But hey all I did was read what Sirken posted, you could perhaps do the same before busting out the aspergers.

Actually it is he is retreating to the safety of his raid force in an adjacent zone

This is not Sun Tzu Art of War shit. Stop trying to over complicate it with theoretical tactical advantage garbage.

You had a force outside that was afraid to zone in and contest and/or not able to zone in due to GM orders.

[Pseudechis]

you do realize the first two sentences are on bind camping and then he goes on to talk about LnS rules, right? Didn't think you did....

This is part of the LNS rules. the person LNSing is expected to retreat to safety, lawyer it up all you want, moving forward into the Plane of Fear which is the objective is not retreating to safety. it is bypassing PvP through a loop hole. It's really simple here.

1. If a group of 3 who are part of a larger force in an adjacent zone die can they individually LNS or does that require force LNS. I would say force LNS is required.
2. Is moving forward to join your "force" retreating to safety as intended by the rules or should that smaller part of the force be required to "retreat" as the rules state.

Lawyer it up all you want. Clarity on the topic will help everyone play nicer together in the future.

[HippoNipple]

If a guild LNS' from TT then they need to leave the zone in a reasonable time frame. Their options are go into Seb, or go to another zone. As soon as they zone into Seb you can kill them again and force them to call LNS there. Or if they choose to go to another zone then they cannot go back into TT on the way to Seb for 1 hour, otherwise they are in violation of LNS policy.

I don't see what's so complicated about this. If you don't want them to LNS into Seb then kill them in Seb if they zone in, or if petition if they don't leave TT within a reasonable time frame.

Assume a guild dies in TT trying to go to Seb and they call LnS. They buff up completely in FoB or EJ. You are okay with them coming in all at once in TT to loot then going directly into Seb after 5 mins?

If you are okay with that it is your opinion, but it is valid for others to argue against that situation and think it is wrong. The point of LnS is to allow you to go do something else, not progress to the end goal of getting the raid target.

[Akalakamelee]

"Retreat to saftey" I guess that might apply to a single under geared lvl 46 going into fear, but a few highey geared 60s could pretty easily clear the entire mobs of fear. So in their case the can retreat to the saftey of fear since it is safe for them. The rules are very clear if you read them. It isn't a loophole, it's following the rules word for word. Sorry holo, your loss on this one pals.

[Widan]

Assume a guild dies in TT trying to go to Seb and they call LnS. They buff up completely in FoB or EJ. You are okay with them coming in all at once in TT to loot then going directly into Seb after 5 mins?

If you are okay with that it is your opinion, but it is valid for others to argue against that situation and think it is wrong. The point of LnS is to allow you to go do something else, not progress to the end goal of getting the raid target.

You are not allowed to spend time buffing up while LNS'ing. Furthermore, if you did that would not be LNS'ing in a reasonable time frame and would be breaking the rules.

No one is going to be fully buffed up and looted within 5 minutes anyways so I don't think this scenario has any merit.

[krazyGlue]

So everyone agrees holocaust was wrong by trying to force us not to zone into fear . Since it wasn't a contested zone ( no fresh or holocaust ) was in there . ...

[Doors]

Azrael pvp = lawyerquest the fuck out of everyone. Great thread.

[krazyGlue]

Nothing to lawyer quest . We didn't get death touched by sirken like holo members did last night . /shrug we are a guild that follows the rules and enforces them on our members

[Pseudechis]

Let's just wait and hear from Sirken, if he agrees that trickling people into fear to avoid Force LNS and then LNSing to progress and bypass PvP to reach a goal or objective is ok well then I guess we can expect to see a lot more of it.

It is really unfortunate that the "premiere PvP guild on Red" chooses to use sly tactics to avoid PvP. Then celebrate their "victory".

[krazyGlue]

if they are banned from entering the zone they obviously cannot kick you out of it

use your brian inbread

Thanks for stating the obvious

[krazyGlue]

Let's just wait and hear from Sirken, if he agrees that trickling people into fear to avoid Force LNS and then LNSing to progress and bypass PvP to reach a goal or objective is ok well then I guess we can expect to see a lot more of it.

It is really unfortunate that the "premiere PvP guild on Red" chooses to use sly tactics to avoid PvP. Then celebrate their "victory".

Break the rules more . And we will use them to greif you

[lite]

e. Are people going to be able to LNS into ToV from WW?

Fight them in ToV ? ohhhh... Holo already expects to be suspended from there? planning ahead, kk

[Kergan]

ToV might get the whole server suspended or wiped.

[Widan]

Let's just wait and hear from Sirken, if he agrees that trickling people into fear to avoid Force LNS and then LNSing to progress and bypass PvP to reach a goal or objective is ok well then I guess we can expect to see a lot more of it.

It is really unfortunate that the "premiere PvP guild on Red" chooses to use sly tactics to avoid PvP. Then celebrate their "victory".

What about trying to avoid a raid zone ban, where does that fall on your sly tactics chart?

[Akalakamelee]

ToV might get the whole server suspended or wiped.

Whole server? Other guild exist besides holo.

[Pseudechis]

Break the rules more . And we will use them to greif you

This is the ongoing issue, as far as I'm concerned we did not break the rules. I'd like to hear Sirken's perspective on the topic. If he says that your interpretation is correct we'll tow the line once again. But really dodging PvP and abusing the LNS system to bypass PvP and gain an objective....

I'd rather it be black and white and be in the black and know better for next time, than live eternally in the grey and constantly lawyerquest and petition.

[MavstabYoudead]

i dont think azrael will survive velious

they will become the FoH of Kunark

Velious PvP is going to be a lack luster PvE expansion only differentiating itself from blue by having no variance or lines. Population doesn't sustain 2 velious-ready raiding guilds.

another person with no velious experience...

[MavstabYoudead]

This is the ongoing issue, as far as I'm concerned we did not break the rules. I'd like to hear Sirken's perspective on the topic. If he says that your interpretation is correct we'll tow the line once again. But really dodging PvP and abusing the LNS system to bypass PvP and gain an objective....

I'd rather it be black and white and be in the black and know better for next time, than live eternally in the grey and constantly lawyerquest and petition.

Sirken Gink Holocaust The Feerrott 0.00 January 22 2015 9:43:39 PM
Sirken Elemtal Holocaust The Feerrott 0.00 January 22 2015 9:43:38 PM


ok?

[vouss]

Hey Sirken I have a question about last night to, can guilds contest raid mobs that they are raid suspended from?

[MavstabYoudead]

Sorry, did you plan to just do the CS water dragon with your usual Naggy/Vox clears?

no was thinking about doing some lodizal as well! that statue of rallos zek is a tough one as well, right. slowable mobs really hard. velketor a real barn burner fight, doubt we can kill him with less than 100 but it's doable. woushi seems like a fun time we like drag0ns.

[krazyGlue]

Also is it allowed to make an ogre wall ? Or is it against the rules ?

[MavstabYoudead]

damn man thats quite the feast of velious raid mobs

how yall going to manage the influx of apps with those kinda promises of wuoshi and lodi

going to be fun times. I expect velious to be released on red by 2018. going to be great!

we might even do some ToV clears just to farm kael armor, not sure just depends on if we have time on the weekends between bed bath and beyond and home depot trips.

[Akalakamelee]

FoH alive and well, doing good

[Gooch]

With all the talk about server population do those participating in these shit throwing festivals think this is going to draw people to play on this server? Just like on live pvp servers players create their own headaches by running to the GMs every time something doesn't go their way. There doesn't even appear to be any concerted effort to block content from another guild which makes 99.9% of this shit petty fucking bellyaching.

Y'all need less chat and more splat.

Now back to your regularly scheduled turd tossing and circle jerking.

(I will give you credit that BS posts and turd fests like this are definitely classic. EQ in the PM, FQ in the AM.)

[Akalakamelee]

Pretty clear holo doesn't care about rules. I got jumped on and personally attacked on the forums because I called them out on an lns violation. Next week they do it again. Obvious toxic guild

[Kergan]

Whole server? Other guild exist besides holo.

You realize Azrael had people suspended for PNP violations the same exact day Holo got zone locked from PoFear right?

Whole server is going to shit with that zone, nobody can control themselves.

[MavstabYoudead]

had 1 person not multiple like holo plus seems like they had more last night.

[Kergan]

Same violation, different punishment. Doesn't really matter it all evens out over time.

ToV is going to be a fuckshow of epic proportions.

[Akalakamelee]

Not my point, my point is your guilds policies. Before anyone says "your not in holo you don't know" acoins speak louder then words. I'm not in az, holo violated my lns (pending gm call on this) this shows a clear history. Oh and I was wrong it happened a few days ago not a week. Which is even worse.

[Pseudechis]

but it helped your K:D ratio. you guys were able to get 3-4 kills with 55+ in zone and another 10-12 got into fear over time.

had 1 person not multiple like holo plus seems like they had more last night.

the leader of azrael was that 1 person. Great example....

[Pikrib]

At no point in time did azrael have more then 5 in the Zone/ feerrot

LnS rules don't say that your force has to be all in the same zone at the same time.

Read it again. Get back to me.

"In large scale PvP (7 or more players on both sides), LnS must be called by a force as a whole. Individuals may not invoke Loot and Scoot. LnS may be called by the force at any time, this option may never be forfeited. If a fight took place across multiple zones, the force is considered to have finished LnS'ing once all of their players have left the zones affected. All other LnS rules still apply."

[Kergan]

Not my point, my point is your guilds policies. Before anyone says "your not in holo you don't know" acoins speak louder then words. I'm not in az, holo violated my lns (pending gm call on this) this shows a clear history. Oh and I was wrong it happened a few days ago not a week. Which is even worse.

Holy shit you got killed on LNS one time?

Best to make a snap judgement on the entire guild.

p.s. Azrael has had people suspended multiple times for violating LNS

p.p.s. so has Holo

p.p.p.s so did Nihilum

Maybe now you'll get my point?

[Nirgon]

Hey Sirken I have a question about last night to, can guilds contest raid mobs that they are raid suspended from?

We asked first if it was OK to be in Feerott

Playin by dem rules u kno?


Now the ogre wall we thought was fine, apparently it isn't and we won't do it again unless we're killing Tunare in the future.

[pingpong]

how are people this obtuse? There are two clear conclusions:

1) the way the rule is currently written, there was no clear violation of LNSing into fear based on current wording.

2) this is obviously a loophole and is against the spirit of the LNS rule and should lead to improving the rule.

god so much biased retardation its pathetic

[Pseudechis]

how are people this obtuse? There are two clear conclusions:

1) the way the rule is currently written, there was no clear violation of LNSing into fear based on current wording.

2) this is obviously a loophole and is against the spirit of the LNS rule and should lead to improving the rule.

god so much biased retardation its pathetic

And 3) just because you have 3 people in a zone if they are part of a larger force in another zone force LNS should apply. If this was enforced the two points above become moot.

[Kergan]

Would there have been an issue if the ogres were in range for pvp?

[krazyGlue]

the fact that ogre walls aren't allowed is so non-classic it makes me SICK

It must be recess

[Nirgon]

Well whatever time it is, we were hoping when we had 23 in Feerott that the pvp guild would have come out and 28v23'd us

8(

also, i can't wait to be doing VP, azrael shows up in skyfire with a gank crew, a straggler is killed, and they're totally free to just LNS to meet up with our raid in VP

8)


Yah gonna come in big time handy when we decide to push that Phara Dar into *GASP* PRIME TIME HOURS

[Akalakamelee]

Holy shit you got killed on LNS one time?

Best to make a snap judgement on the entire guild.

p.s. Azrael has had people suspended multiple times for violating LNS

p.p.s. so has Holo

p.p.p.s so did Nihilum

Maybe now you'll get my point?

It wasn't the lns violation that made me dislike holo so much, it was the childish response that came of it and the barrage of personal attacks that came from the forums, in which you also joined in on it.

Prior to petitioning I did ask if holo officers were on, I would have been ok with settling it between myself and your officer instead of having gm involvement. The reply I got was "HOLOCAUST RECRUITING". Don't bitch about petitionquest, we could have settled.

[Akalakamelee]

the fact that ogre walls aren't allowed is so non-classic it makes me SICK

Doing that is actually a different violation, and was against the rules on live under "zone disruption"

[Akalakamelee]

you don't like childish responses, but you like childish 11 year old cartoon girls?

Isn't colgate holo's leader? Serious question.

Oh and you have an African American guy as your avatar, does that make you racist?

[Pseudechis]

also, i can't wait to be doing VP, azrael shows up in skyfire with a gank crew, a straggler is killed, and they're totally free to just LNS to meet up with our raid in VP

8)

Yeh but if you just say force LNS applies to anyone moving to join a force then all this lawyer questing is moot. Anyone moving to fear or VP can't LNS and thus are free to be killed. I'm ok with this. The irony here is the so called pvp guild is the one not ok with a rule that would promote more pvp.

[Crazycloud]

Doing that is actually a different violation, and was against the rules on live under "zone disruption"

WRONG, I've seen soooo many ogre walls on EQlive and never once have seen a GM come and disrupt it. You can get through ogre walls but it still takes a few more seconds to get through it.

[Pikrib]

Oh and you have an African American guy as your avatar, does that make you racist?

Colgate's avatar isn't a african american...

[Akalakamelee]

Yea your right looked again. My bad

[Akalakamelee]

WRONG, I've seen soooo many ogre walls on EQlive and never once have seen a GM come and disrupt it. You can get through ogre walls but it still takes a few more seconds to get through it.

While that's true, it still was against the rules technically. Just like bind camping, zone camping, etc. Ogre walls are more annoying then a real problem though.

[Glenzig]

Colgate's avatar isn't a african american...

He saw an ugly guy with messed up teeth and assumed African American. Got to be a racist. I mean for reals.

[Sirken]

No, Sirken.

If you read my post you would note the quote came from the block you posted. That means I myself read it and it was/is still unclear. I would appreciate your not being so dismissive of a legitimate question that was pertinent to literally half the server last night.

i thought it was clear. as HC is suspended from fear, they have no grounds to lay claim to that zone, nor do they have grounds to dictate whom may enter that zone.

better?

also, you literally logged out last night as i tried to send you a tell. was very rude.

[heartbrand]

This Akalaka poster is awful. Is it that weird tranny azure dude?

[heartbrand]

i thought it was clear. as HC is suspended from fear, they have no grounds to lay claim to that zone, nor do they have grounds to dictate whom may enter that zone.

better?

also, you literally logged out last night as i tried to send you a tell. was very rude.

That doesn't answer in normal practice whether "Forward" LNS'ing is acceptable or not.

[Akalakamelee]

He saw an ugly guy with messed up teeth and assumed African American. Got to be a racist. I mean for reals.

Nah, I'm not ignorant. Using my phone and the pic was small, upon zooming I saw the mistake. I can admit when I'm wrong, your turn guys.

[Akalakamelee]

This Akalaka poster is awful. Is it that weird tranny azure dude?

Who's azure? I don't keep records of every eq player and constantly dwell on the past of r99 like you do pal.

[Kergan]

It wasn't the lns violation that made me dislike holo so much, it was the childish response that came of it and the barrage of personal attacks that came from the forums, in which you also joined in on it.

Prior to petitioning I did ask if holo officers were on, I would have been ok with settling it between myself and your officer instead of having gm involvement. The reply I got was "HOLOCAUST RECRUITING". Don't bitch about petitionquest, we could have settled.

I haven't even played in 4 months, and haven't been in Holo since it was like 15 people right after Nihilum was disbanded. I know it may be easier for you to generalize everyone that thinks you're a weird pedo and crybaby into one guild though so proceed.

[Sirken]

That doesn't answer in normal practice whether "Forward" LNS'ing is acceptable or not.

In large scale PvP there is no limit to the number of zones a force can be locked out of. If a fight took place across multiple zones the lockout will apply to all zones a PvP related death occurred in.

[Akalakamelee]

I haven't even played in 4 months, and haven't been in Holo since it was like 15 people right after Nihilum was disbanded. I know it may be easier for you to generalize everyone that thinks you're a weird pedo and crybaby into one guild though so proceed.

Seems you frequently swing on their testies. You don't even play, why do you care?

[Kergan]

Because ForumQuest?

[Sirken]

so is it okay to forward LNS into a raid zone that's being blocked off?

Fresh was there and was zoning in periodically with PvP taking place inside Fear

if it was 3 guilds doing 1v1v1 against each other, then Fresh could have forced Azrael out. but as Fresh and Holocaust were clearly working in a 2v1, i considered them as part of the same force. and i simply was not going to let the efforts of a guild that was suspended from Fear dictate anything having to do with control of the zone.

[Pikrib]

In large scale PvP there is no limit to the number of zones a force can be locked out of. If a fight took place across multiple zones the lockout will apply to all zones a PvP related death occurred in.

Sirk can I get a legit question answered about force LnS?

If a guild has 6 people in CT and 6 are in Feerot pvping a force of the same size at the same time in both zones. Is that considered a "Force" and should it fall under the "Force LnS" rules?

[Akalakamelee]

I guess, not sure why you sink so low to accuse me of being a sex offender, you can do better pal. I have faith in you.

[Pseudechis]

In large scale PvP there is no limit to the number of zones a force can be locked out of. If a fight took place across multiple zones the lockout will apply to all zones a PvP related death occurred in.

So then the dribs and drabs moving through feerott were part of the force given the above reference around Force LNS. therefore no individual LNS was valid and no rules were broken by either side either holo killing or by azrael zoning into fear as no force LNS was called.

Thank you for clarifying.

[Kergan]

Hmm, yeah. Can't really have it both ways, either you can use LNS and get locked out of Fear or not use it and you can be chain killed in Feerott?

I understand in spirit what Sirken is saying - basically Holo got suspended from the zone so fuck them in this case, but maybe just add an addendum to the rules stating if any portion of a raid group is locked from entry into the zone they cannot lock players out of the zone even if LNS is called. I mean people gonna lawyerquest nameen?

[Nirgon]

This thread is a perfect example of why we need the VIP Board

[Glenzig]

Behold the future of red99 a one guild server with no pvp, or as I like to call it blue2.

Sorry I'm forced to go call of duty style sniping fools but fighting 5x the numbers ain't that fun nawmean.

Its ok. You'll join to get pixels.

[heartbrand]

Still not clear despite very large text and bolded words whether or not intentionally taking a PVP death in a zone connected to a raid zone allows you to LNS into the raid zone where no pvp death occurred. If so, this seems like a very large loophole.

[Glenzig]

Damn straight thx for the pixels nerd, you mad?

Don't thank me. I'm not in holo. Thank Nirgon and Colgate. Do it. Its bad manners not to say thank you to your superiors for your monthly rations. Don't be rude. I'll totally tell your mom.

[Dacuk]

still don't think the question has been answered sirken, we obviously aren't as smart or intuitive as you. halp us

[Nirgon]

Doesn't hurt to run with what is presented here and sort it out in game if Sirken has to be involved again.

Right now I understand that a player can be killed in Sky Fire or Feerott and then is free to zone into VP or Plane of Fear (after an LNS call!) at the risk of being chased into said zone and killed again.

If you are suspended from said zone, too bad, you can't chase them.

Going with that for now as legal, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Samhain]

i simply was not going to let the efforts of a guild that was suspended from Fear dictate anything having to do with control of the zone.
Thank you for clarifying your ambiguity on the event.

[Gooch]

There should be a GM event every time Forum Quests or Everlawyering like this pop up. The GMs should log in the next night and randomly DT people from the post as well as people in the guilds involved. Or just DT the whole damn guild a few times that night, especially if they are raiding. A GM forum hitsquad...

There should be an in-game cost associated with taking up resources when Forum Questing & Everlawyering.

[Glenzig]

Still not clear despite very large text and bolded words whether or not intentionally taking a PVP death in a zone connected to a raid zone allows you to LNS into the raid zone where no pvp death occurred. If so, this seems like a very large loophole.

From what I gather from Sirken's last post normally this would not stand. However he enacted a caveat since Holo was on fear suspension and could not enter fear regardless of what Azrael did. He decided to view Holo/Fresh as one entity.

[Pseudechis]

In large scale PvP there is no limit to the number of zones a force can be locked out of. If a fight took place across multiple zones the lockout will apply to all zones a PvP related death occurred in.

I interpreted Sirken's post as those dead were part of a force and force LNS would have been required thus no rules broken by either side last night. Just we should have killed then and not let them zone in as they were not under a valid LNS call.

[Nirgon]

Man I ain't even mad, you can't cut off our reinforcements anymore? They are guaranteed entry to a zone with all our holo pals in it as long we aren't suspended from said zone?

gg

I mean I'd be in favor of giving smaller elite crews more of a chance to contest, but... this benefits us so much its not even funny.

[MavstabYoudead]

i thought it was clear. as HC is suspended from fear, they have no grounds to lay claim to that zone, nor do they have grounds to dictate whom may enter that zone.

better?

also, you literally logged out last night as i tried to send you a tell. was very rude.

so what punishment is HC receiving for violating the rules yet again?

[MavstabYoudead]

so is it okay to forward LNS into a raid zone that's being blocked off?

Fresh was there and was zoning in periodically with PvP taking place inside Fear

lol now you are just making shit up. fresh never zoned in more than 1 person to take a count of the zone. get out of here.

[dontbanpls]

if it was 3 guilds doing 1v1v1 against each other, then Fresh could have forced Azrael out. but as Fresh and Holocaust were clearly working in a 2v1, i considered them as part of the same force. and i simply was not going to let the efforts of a guild that was suspended from Fear dictate anything having to do with control of the zone.

This is total bull shit. Do you think I would have given loot to holocaust after my guild killed CT or something? Seems like you decided to give Azrael an extra advantage by disregarding the legitimacy of my guilds interest in cazic thule and have given them a free pass to be shit bags because you're upset at a couple of people who trained in plane of fear last week. Thanks of telling us all that we aren't worthy of being treated as our own organization.

[MavstabYoudead]

seems dumb imo to be able to take intentional death so that you can freely move to wherever you want with no threat of pvp

you guys had no right to say you were contesting fear. he's made it pretty clear, which is what we said last night while you guys were breaking rules.

[MavstabYoudead]

Doesn't hurt to run with what is presented here and sort it out in game if Sirken has to be involved again.

Right now I understand that a player can be killed in Sky Fire or Feerott and then is free to zone into VP or Plane of Fear (after an LNS call!) at the risk of being chased into said zone and killed again.

If you are suspended from said zone, too bad, you can't chase them.

Going with that for now as legal, correct me if I'm wrong.

you're wrong. he's made it very clear. holofresh (sirken considered you guys 1 raiding force as you worked together) had no right to enter PoF or claim it as being contested. The only way your above post is correct is if the guild in question is also suspended from that zone in the future. Got it?

[MavstabYoudead]

This is total bull shit. Do you think I would have given loot to holocaust after my guild killed CT or something? Seems like you decided to give Azrael an extra advantage by disregarding the legitimacy of my guilds interest in cazic thule and have given them a free pass to be shit bags because you're upset at a couple of people who trained in plane of fear last week. Thanks of telling us all that we aren't worthy of being treated as our own organization.

would you guys have shown up to feerott if holo didn't have 30+ there? Why didn't you zone in?

[heartbrand]

you guys fighting about the fear rules and the terribly awful raid suspension b.s., and other awful calls, are missing the important aspect here, which is can someone "forward" LNS in normal circumstances without retarded raid suspensions in zones completely filled with mobs that aggro you instantly upon zoning in

[MavstabYoudead]

for someone who claims how smart and educated he is you are awfully dense.

[dontbanpls]

I think it is really rude and unfair to the new players on the server in <fresh> that they had to be subjected to holocausts raid suspension just because they work together against a guild that works against both of them

[MavstabYoudead]

you could have zoned into fear at any time max. give it a rest. you guys wanted no part of the pvp for fear.

[Pikrib]

and i simply was not going to let the efforts of a guild that was suspended from Fear dictate anything having to do with control of the zone.


Sirken

We were just having a Cyndreela raid. :D

[fred schnarf]

Sirken

We were just having a Cyndreela raid. :D

she was an easy way to farm fire opals on live, here she drops shit

[Nirgon]

Who Posted?
Total Posts: 151
User Name Posts
MavstabYoudead 28
Akalakamelee 14
Pseudechis 11
Kergan 9
krazyGlue 8
Nirgon 8
HippoNipple 8
Widan 8
Pikrib 7
heartbrand 6
Colgate 6
Coffee 6
Sirken 4
Glenzig 4
Samhain 3
Swyft 3
Gooch 2
lite 2
dontbanpls 2
Edgat 2
Ragnaros 1
pingpong 1
Jarlon 1
fred schnarf 1
Dacuk 1
JudgementRed 1
Doors 1
MEGANS LAW 1
vouss 1
Crazycloud 1
Show Thread & Close Window

[MavstabYoudead]

who still doesn't understand the rules even after sirken has been perfectly clear? Seems to be a lot of holo:

Pseudechis 11
Nirgon 8
HippoNipple 8
Pikrib 7
heartbrand 6
Colgate 6
Samhain 3
dontbanpls 2
Dacuk 1
Doors 1
Crazycloud 1

[Akalakamelee]

Jesus 14 (now 15) posts. Guess work really is slow today :/

[Quiet]

Who cares? Grats Azrael on their last CT kill. Use that Piccalo wisely.

[Nirgon]

Need we link the Mendan 1v1 story?

Insanely embarrassing

Need VIP board to get anywhere with discussions, everything gets trolled by the rejects

[Kergan]

Let's definitely turn this into another Syft rage thread, we don't have 50 of those currently active in RNF or anything.

[Buhbuh]

All trolling aside, the PnP needs a serious overhaul if it can spring threads like this.

Several of our players are losing interest in playing simply because of the amount of petitionquest. Sirken told us we shouldn't feel like we're walking on eggshells? We're already there. Holocaust has put everyone in the guild on high alert when doing anything during raids/ with Azrael around/ in zone.

It's way too strict and way too lenient in all the wrong ways.

It's especially bad when that behavior, and the loopholes, are exploited to their farthest stretching point. Lite is posting about server health when he spends hours a day on Sandusky in Howling Stones using a bugged skipping stone to throw shit at the pets of pet classes in opposing guilds until the moment they aren't paying attention for one second and everyone wipes. When he gets into trouble, he drops down to the first level, dying to mobs, boxes in his cleric and rezzes back up to do it all over again.

Yet somehow he's the white knight to server health?

Brainz gets raptured out of range of mob agro in sebilis and when he gets tashed, rooted and, for all intents and purposes, fucked, he uses a ranged weapon to agro mobs, and feign deaths them right where we're standing. But because we're PvPing him at close range in a small zone, he's technically in the right and not training because? I have no idea. Mobs sometimes get involved?

It's really, really tiresome dealing with a guild that looks for any rule to lawyer off to Sirken about in order to get us banned. Ogre walls were/ are classic. I used that shit all the time on live.

You complain about Holocaust not having PvP tactics and yet when one was created you petitioned it? You guys are fucking babies. Don't get me wrong, Sullon-Zek style is completely antithetical to server growth, but being too blue isn't helping either. We shouldn't have rules that pander to any one guild (like a zerg), but right now we have ones that pander to people with crews that can't defeat the legitimately better guild straight up.

We have a spy in your guild. Sometimes, even after a long period of time of being friends, people you most trust start to see you for what you are. Took years. Good luck in the future.

[Sirken]

Ogre walls were/ are classic. I used that shit all the time on live.

8. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

-Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.

- Deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other players cannot get past.

- Refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after having been instructed to do so by a P99CSR.

- Making excessive and inappropriate use of public channels of communications (/shout, /ooc, etc.).

- Intentionally causing excessive zone latency (creating excessive corpses, abusing spell effects, etc.).

- Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.).



theres lots of things that happened on classic that were against the rules. i know ogres that use to block zone lines all the time, and i know a guy that got DTd the first time he blocked the entrance to the gfay banker. i DTd the wall, as i should have. no one was suspended for it.

[vouss]

Buhbuh complaining about petitionquest after his guild wiped themselves to mobs, trained us back, then paged in Sikren to watch for us to train you back?

[Buhbuh]

nobody was talking to you. go get beastagor deleted by your girlfriend again, or just kindly fuck off

8)

needs an overhaul, bros

[Modus]

Solution #1:

LNSing players must leave the zone they were killed in, and all adjacent zones for one hour.

Solution #2:

LNS does not apply to Raidgroup vs Raidgroup contests over raid targets.

[krazyGlue]

All trolling aside, the PnP needs a serious overhaul if it can spring threads like this.

Several of our players are losing interest in playing simply because of the amount of petitionquest. Sirken told us we shouldn't feel like we're walking on eggshells? We're already there. Holocaust has put everyone in the guild on high alert when doing anything during raids/ with Azrael around/ in zone.

It's way too strict and way too lenient in all the wrong ways.

It's especially bad when that behavior, and the loopholes, are exploited to their farthest stretching point. Lite is posting about server health when he spends hours a day on Sandusky in Howling Stones using a bugged skipping stone to throw shit at the pets of pet classes in opposing guilds until the moment they aren't paying attention for one second and everyone wipes. When he gets into trouble, he drops down to the first level, dying to mobs, boxes in his cleric and rezzes back up to do it all over again.

Yet somehow he's the white knight to server health?

Brainz gets raptured out of range of mob agro in sebilis and when he gets tashed, rooted and, for all intents and purposes, fucked, he uses a ranged weapon to agro mobs, and feign deaths them right where we're standing. But because we're PvPing him at close range in a small zone, he's technically in the right and not training because? I have no idea. Mobs sometimes get involved?

It's really, really tiresome dealing with a guild that looks for any rule to lawyer off to Sirken about in order to get us banned. Ogre walls were/ are classic. I used that shit all the time on live.

You complain about Holocaust not having PvP tactics and yet when one was created you petitioned it? You guys are fucking babies. Don't get me wrong, Sullon-Zek style is completely antithetical to server growth, but being too blue isn't helping either. We shouldn't have rules that pander to any one guild (like a zerg), but right now we have ones that pander to people with crews that can't defeat the legitimately better guild straight up.

We have a spy in your guild. Sometimes, even after a long period of time of being friends, people you most trust start to see you for what you are. Took years. Good luck in the future.
Someone is mad

[Buhbuh]

Someone is mad

someone is feeding me intimate details about your raids =)

[krazyGlue]

someone is feeding me intimate details about your raids =)

Don't care I know how much u pals like raiding . Listen along

[Modus]

calling LnS from pure PvE deaths is not allowed.

Also, this is really clumsy.

The intention of LNS is to allow players to loot their body and continue playing EverQuest. But, if a kobald kills you instead of a fungi twink, they can corpse camp you all day long?

Stupid.

[Akalakamelee]

Also, this is really clumsy.

The intention of LNS is to allow players to loot their body and continue playing EverQuest. But, if a kobald kills you instead of a fungi twink, they can corpse camp you all day long?

Stupid.

No, at the point of pvp death you call lns.

[Kergan]

Ogre wall of oor toons isn't really a PVP tactic man. Built out of level 60s that shits legit you feelers?

[Buhbuh]

Don't care I know how much u pals like raiding . Listen along

Didn't sound that way in TS.

Also pulling 1 mob at a time the entire raid?

Front all you want here, but naw. Rustle is real.


One thing the GMs implemented with the hope it would bring more mass PvP was the rule where guilds are able to LnS a raid force from one zone in order to contest at another later in the day.

What ended up happening was - raid forces plug after losing a small amount (where it's apparent they won't win), call LnS, unplug, port and snipe mobs across the world map, completely avoiding any future PvP battle because they know when they're outmatched (which is a logically sound way to operate).

The only problem there is that no one faces consequences for mass PvPing. There's now a loophole for bringing your guild to fight another and losing. You don't have to wait any period of time to LnS or wait until they leave the zone or finish the raid mob. You just pickup your shit and walk away, avoiding PvP and getting what raid loot you can without actually ever engaging anyone again.

Basically, the idea sounded great on paper (yay, more world PvP), but it never ended up that way. No one suffers for losing. I don't like that. We need a little bit of that. A time for reflection after losing a hard fought battle.

I don't think you should sit on corpses for days at a time, but that can be addressed with a timeframe to raid force LnS. After losing en masse, you wait 30 minutes or until the winning raid force leaves the zone to get your shit and hop to the next target. That's a far more reasonable way to look at it. You gotta sit that shit out, and if you zone in to LnS within that 30 minute timeframe, you get annihilated. That doesn't mean we have to lawyerquest it as a LnS violation for doing that, but just that anyone who zones in within that time frame is getting rocked.

While in Nihilum, Azrael would lose at VS and be at PD in VP before we were even finished in KC. It's like they were rewarded for losing.

I don't get that part of the PnP.

[Buhbuh]

Ogre wall of oor toons isn't really a PVP tactic man. Built out of level 60s that shits legit you feelers?

I agree there. In range, sure. But that can be loopholed with "i was 55 and couldn't kill them" argument. They had plenty of those running in last night.

[vouss]

While in Nihilum, Azrael would lose at VS and be at PD in VP before we were even finished in KC. It's like they were rewarded for losing.

That wasn't easy though, and wasn't due to LnS, that required us to have characters at both PD's lair, and in Dreadlands, and to try and have the timers close enough that one could be delayed until they both spawned.

[Nirgon]

Can't wait to push PD timer so everyone in Holo can enjoy the prime time raiding.

Don't deny our flow of replacements throughout the day their LNS into VP. You heard the man.

[Edgat]

The fact that Sirken even has to sit in here and answer these retarded questions is absurd.

Take the time to read the rules then read them again. 90% of the time I see someone say some shit about pvp or lns rules its bullshit they got second hand from someone else that never read the shit either.

Need to make a 20 question test fill players screen next time they log into red until they pass the test.

[Kergan]

Population would plummet to historical lows.

[Dacuk]

who still doesn't understand the rules even after sirken has been perfectly clear? Seems to be a lot of holo:

Pseudechis 11
Nirgon 8
HippoNipple 8
Pikrib 7
heartbrand 6
Colgate 6
Samhain 3
dontbanpls 2
Dacuk 1
Doors 1
Crazycloud 1

http://troll.me/images/jackie-chan-whut/dafuq.jpg

[HippoNipple]

if it was 3 guilds doing 1v1v1 against each other, then Fresh could have forced Azrael out. but as Fresh and Holocaust were clearly working in a 2v1, i considered them as part of the same force. and i simply was not going to let the efforts of a guild that was suspended from Fear dictate anything having to do with control of the zone.

So if you followed the rules (that I think need some tweaking) you would have made Azrael leave last night but under your judgement you decided the rules didn't allow for you to make the correct call.

Admitting this is fine, but sitting there bolding and typing in 24 size font like it is clear as day from the written rules is a joke when you forgot to leave out the part about you assuming Fresh and Holocaust were the same guild. The suspension was so Holo couldn't raid Fear. I don't think anyone assumed this meant they couldn't have influence on who won the fight for the raid zone as long as they didn't zone into fear themselves.

Fresh and Holocaust actually have a lot of differences when you look at the leadership of both. They just both set that aside to police the scum of the server since the community has given up on GMs handling it correctly. It isn't like Holocaust actually benefits from Fresh members getting raid targets.

[Kergan]

The rule laywer in me says if no members of Fresh were locked out of Fear then regular rules should have applied to kills by Fresh.

The non-retarded person in me says...come on guys, really?

[HippoNipple]

After reading your signature I realize there is at least one thing Sirken and the community as a whole can agree on.

[Buhbuh]

So if you followed the rules (that I think need some tweaking) you would have made Azrael leave last night but under your judgement you decided the rules didn't allow for you to make the correct call.

Admitting this is fine, but sitting there bolding and typing in 24 size font like it is clear as day from the written rules is a joke when you forgot to leave out the part about you assuming Fresh and Holocaust were the same guild. The suspension was so Holo couldn't raid Fear. I don't think anyone assumed this meant they couldn't have influence on who won the fight for the raid zone as long as they didn't zone into fear themselves.

Fresh and Holocaust actually have a lot of differences when you look at the leadership of both. They just both set that aside to police the scum of the server since the community has given up on GMs handling it correctly. It isn't like Holocaust actually benefits from Fresh members getting raid targets.

[Kergan]

To be fair Sirken, this is what happens when you create rules for a community without their input. I like the direction you're heading with this guild leader only forum, perhaps this can be the first discussion topic?

[daasgoot]

if it was 3 guilds doing 1v1v1 against each other, then Fresh could have forced Azrael out. but as Fresh and Holocaust were clearly working in a 2v1, i considered them as part of the same force. and i simply was not going to let the efforts of a guild that was suspended from Fear dictate anything having to do with control of the zone.

pras it

[krazyGlue]

Let's Zerg . Then complain about the lns rules

[Crazycloud]

So if you followed the rules (that I think need some tweaking) you would have made Azrael leave last night but under your judgement you decided the rules didn't allow for you to make the correct call.

Admitting this is fine, but sitting there bolding and typing in 24 size font like it is clear as day from the written rules is a joke when you forgot to leave out the part about you assuming Fresh and Holocaust were the same guild. The suspension was so Holo couldn't raid Fear. I don't think anyone assumed this meant they couldn't have influence on who won the fight for the raid zone as long as they didn't zone into fear themselves.

Fresh and Holocaust actually have a lot of differences when you look at the leadership of both. They just both set that aside to police the scum of the server since the community has given up on GMs handling it correctly. It isn't like Holocaust actually benefits from Fresh members getting raid targets.

Sirken too busy on blue then comes on red bringing them blue rules here. This shit is reminding me of classic when gms ruined the server.

Instead of telling people ogre wall is not legit on red99 he goes and abuses his power even tho shit was legit on live.

[dontbanpls]

Still no clear answer to OP after 19 pages these rules obviously written very well

[HippoNipple]

Let's Zerg . Then complain about the lns rules

The point is to make things better going forward. Yes there is finger pointing when discussing last night but the goal is to make it better for everyone instead of guild vs guild pvp deteriorating into loop holes and petitions. Screw last night, no one should be suspended or banned but it did shed light on a problem and no one wants that problem to develop into an ongoing raid strategy.

Holo having a lot of members isn't relevant.

[krazyGlue]

so is it okay to forward LNS into a raid zone that's being blocked off?

Fresh was there and was zoning in periodically with PvP taking place inside Fear

lol

[Awwalike]

Seems like a loophole that should be looked into. This isn't the U.S. Constitution here folks, it was a quickly put together with no community input set of rules. Let's work to close the loop hole. Are people going to be able to LNS into ToV from WW?

why wouldn't they be able to LNS to ToV from WW? if you killed them in WW you should easily be able to wipe their CR'd corpses in ToV.... unless you were banned from entering that zone for a week for breaking rules of course.

[Awwalike]

i dont think azrael will survive velious

they will become the FoH of Kunark

Velious PvP is going to be a lack luster PvE expansion only differentiating itself from blue by having no variance or lines. Population doesn't sustain 2 velious-ready raiding guilds.

you obviously never played velious.

[Humerox]

I think the lesson here is that things become very gray when there are multiple guilds working together for common goals.

Personally I think the ogre wall was wrong but I also feel LnSing into Fear was also wrong.

Azrael DID have the foresight to move a raid force into Fear before anyone else got there. Fresh couldn't zone in for obvious reasons but that was due to pre-planning by Az. Had Fresh had the foresight to move into Fear and get placed Holo could have defended the portal much more easily.

I hope this LnS issue gets cleared up in everyone's head. The victors can lockout any zone they choose and any adjacent zone (that has PvP deaths from the same battle) from which LnS has been called. Period. So had Holo not been banned they could have called the lockout on Fear since it was the objective zone, and Feerott too since it was the PvP zone for Fear.

Sirk's decision had more to do with the multiple guild issue and the fact that Holo was banned from Fear. Fresh or Azrael would have had to fight their way in anyway had there been no ban.


p.s.

grats Fresh on #2 guild status

[MavstabYoudead]

p.s.s.

multiple guilds working together because they are afraid of pvp.

you guys got there about 4 hours before ct spawned and we got plenty of people in even with 50 of you nerds there.

grats holofresh on hosting 80% of the server population and operating as one guild.

[Humerox]

grats holofresh on hosting 80% of the server population and operating as one guild.

80% of the server population hates your guild

time to reflect

[Glenzig]

p.s.s.

multiple guilds working together because they are afraid of pvp.

you guys got there about 4 hours before ct spawned and we got plenty of people in even with 50 of you nerds there.

grats holofresh on hosting 80% of the server population and operating as one guild.

This dude is insane.

[MavstabYoudead]

This dude is insane.

typical response when someone is not intelligent enough to counter any of the points.