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View Full Version : Pros and cons of rotation


harnold
01-30-2015, 04:39 PM
While its on my mind, i decided to list pros and cons of a GM enforced rotation. I was originally going to post this in RNF but i'd thought that hearing some opinions from some normal people would be nice.

Pros:
-no more variance
-no more raid rule lawyering
-no more poopsocking
-no more petitionquest
-no more tracking (aka sit in the same spot for 10+hours staring at a wall)
-raid system does not require constant gm intervention to sustain itself
-much less perceived gm-favoritism toward guilds
-Everybody gets a shot to see bosses they wouldnt otherwise be able to
-much less guild bickering/drama
-raid drops much more coveted due to being harder to get
-much much less low level ultra twinks running around
-competition based on ability to kill boss, not who can load in the fastest at 4:30AM
-no unclassic, rediculous, raid rules/charters/legal documents/raid.php to have to comb through with your legal team
-is CLASSIC (this was done on some servers back in the day, this is a classic server, right?)
-no autofire third programs being abused

Cons:
-Will take significantly longer to get raid drops, meaning it will take longer to get best in slot. (4+ years of kunark so far, velious era will be here for the rest of p99's life once it gets released so this isnt really an issue)


This is just a rough draft. I think i've hit mostly all the pros and I'm having trouble coming up with cons. If anybody can think of another, please add it here.


note: i dont think this will actually change, this was proposed last year by numerous people but was ultimately ignored in favor of what we've got now. I am just fantasizing about a healthy endgame on p99.

Bristlebard
01-30-2015, 04:41 PM
I am just fantasizing about a healthy endgame on p99.

That can't be healthy :)

Oakengroves
01-30-2015, 04:49 PM
A gm-forced rotation is more classic than this strange, bloated raid scene that has developed as a result of: (1) an endgame population that dwarfs classic levels; (2) mass information that was not available in classic; (3) natural selection that has concentrated the cream-of-the-crop neckbeards from every classic server onto this server in disproportionate numbers; (4) elite batphone technology; and (5) years of static content.

Most "uber" guilds in classic would be at the bottom rung of Class-R on this server. Racing has replaced crawls, difficult content, and cooperation. Racing happened on live, but not to the extent and insanity it happens here.

The current rotation is NOT classic.

#forcedequitablerotation

#WIPEITCLEAN2015
#WIPEITCLEAN2015
#WIPEITCLEAN2015

Ezalor
01-30-2015, 04:52 PM
You should have specified "GM-enforced" in the title of the thread.

maskedmelon
01-30-2015, 04:54 PM
I think the number one problem with this is that it is not classic (I do not remember any GM enforced rotations). The bizarre two class system with lockouts that we have now is not classic, which renders that primary counter-argument moot. This would only offend a handful of peeps, who would probably be better off on red. I think this is a win-win, red gets a population boost and us bluebies get some harmony ^^

harnold
01-30-2015, 04:56 PM
I think the number one problem with this is that it is not classic (I do not remember any GM enforced rotations). The bizarre two class system with lockouts that we have now is not classic, which renders that primary counter-argument moot. This would only offend a handful of peeps, who would probably be better off on red. I think this is a win-win, red gets a population boost and us bluebies get some harmony ^^

there were a handful of servers that did indeed have gm enforced rotations, it is classic

maskedmelon
01-30-2015, 04:58 PM
If that is the case the. I do not see any valid arguments against it since what we have is not classic.

Oakengroves
01-30-2015, 05:01 PM
The classic argument in favor of a forced rotation is strong.

Everyone ignores the most intuitive argument, however:

Who in their right mind actually enjoys garbage like extended tracking, poopsocking, batphones, waking up at 4:30 AM to snipe raid bosses, and why do they derive enjoyment from it? Why do so many defend it?

I those who subscribe to such values are a tiny minority. Yet, the values of this minority override common sense, basic notions of pleasure, and the values of most people, who enjoy raiding but hate boredom.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

Bristlebard
01-30-2015, 05:03 PM
(1) an endgame population that dwarfs classic levels

Is this actually true? Anytime I'm playing around with "/ count all" only like 10% of the characters online are level 60.

harnold
01-30-2015, 05:04 PM
The classic argument is the strongest.

Everyone ignores the most intuitive argument, however:

Who in their right mind actually enjoys garbage like extended tracking, batphones, waking up at 4:30 AM to snipe raid bosses and why do they derive enjoyment from it?

I those who subscribe to such values are a tiny minority. Yet, the values of this minority override common sense and the values of most people, who enjoy raiding but hate boredom.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

Very well said

harnold
01-30-2015, 05:04 PM
Is this actually true? Anytime I'm playing around with "/ count all" only like 10% of the characters online are level 60.

95% of level 60s, and 100% of level 60 raiders play with /role on so you wont be able to see them there.

Oakengroves
01-30-2015, 05:09 PM
Is this actually true? Anytime I'm playing around with "/ count all" only like 10% of the characters online are level 60.

I remember this strange thing back in classic that does not happen with regularity here:

having one main character (and one or two lower-level alts, at most) and staying logged-into that character for extended periods of time. Sometimes people ran around zones for the sake of running around zones. Sometimes people drank beer in taverns. Sometimes people helped friends with epic quests back when epic quests could not be purchased or substantially skipped. Sometimes people ran around buffing newbies and hitting on woodelf females.

Sometimes people played the game as intended in its native, classic-form.

It's pretty safe to assume that a large number of 60's here are camped out at certain strategic locations.

Man0warr
01-30-2015, 05:11 PM
Yeah I almost never play my raid character - always camped out at WC or KC.

Swish
01-30-2015, 05:11 PM
posting in an Lron thread

Sampten
01-30-2015, 05:16 PM
I remember this strange thing back in classic that does not happen with regularity here:

having one main character (and one or two lower-level alts, at most) and staying logged-into that character for extended periods of time.

It's pretty safe to assume that a large number of 60's here are camped out at certain strategic locations.

The server is broken for various reasons.

First off is the timeline has been stuck on the same thing for years. There's a reason why they made expansions....

Secondly, the game literally ends at level 60. What else do you do? You roll another character. Shorty of maybe doing a camp for a specific piece of gear (or raid), the game is over. People hate Luclin because of cats on the moon but in reality Luclin brought with it AAs, which essentially ended the "end of the game". You now had a purpose to continue to XP, so that you could obtain AAs, which improved your character.

Thirdly, and this is somewhat sad, but Velious doesn't fix any of this. The level cap is still 60. There are no AAs. Nothing changes, other than a few more raid mobs, still not enough to withstand all the guilds/players that are already maxed leveled.

Ezalor
01-30-2015, 05:16 PM
Here, here. The common man favors a GM-enforced rotation.

Bristlebard
01-30-2015, 05:19 PM
95% of level 60s, and 100% of level 60 raiders play with /role on so you wont be able to see them there.

/ all troll = 20 players online
/ count all troll = 28 players online

You can't hide from the count command on p99.

Man0warr
01-30-2015, 05:42 PM
Thirdly, and this is somewhat sad, but Velious doesn't fix any of this. The level cap is still 60. There are no AAs. Nothing changes, other than a few more raid mobs, still not enough to withstand all the guilds/players that are already maxed leveled.

It's a lot more mobs, but if the population goes up proportionately (and I wouldn't be surprised if we were hitting 3k players nightly at the start) then yeah it won't help much.

squarez
01-30-2015, 05:53 PM
Cons:
-Will take significantly longer to get raid drops, meaning it will take longer to get best in slot. (4+ years of kunark so far, velious era will be here for the rest of p99's life once it gets released so this isnt really an issue)


Keep in mind to be part of a rotation, the guild has to actually be able to clear the content successfully. Maybe put a time limit on the time to clear the desired rotation so that people who struggle cannot just attempt to clear over the course of a week. Can't imagine people unable to handle Kunark content, but Velious will definitely be challenging. That in mind, I don't think the rotation pool will be that large if it incorporates those people.

All for rotations of certain content, although I think there does need to be some designation of FFA targets. The FFA competition is still an interesting part of the game and classic (as were rotations on some servers), should not get rid of either completely.

harnold
01-30-2015, 05:57 PM
Keep in mind to be part of a rotation, the guild has to actually be able to clear the content successfully. Maybe put a time limit on the time to clear the desired rotation so that people who struggle cannot just attempt to clear over the course of a week. Can't imagine people unable to handle Kunark content, but Velious will definitely be challenging. That in mind, I don't think the rotation pool will be that large if it incorporates those people.

All for rotations of certain content, although I think there does need to be some designation of FFA targets. The FFA competition is still an interesting part of the game and classic (as were rotations on some servers), should not get rid of either completely.

yes in the case of a wipe, maybe then the mob goes FFA would work

harnold
02-06-2015, 10:33 AM
Still waiting for a single con, if anyone can come up with one

Stormfists
02-06-2015, 10:34 AM
-is CLASSIC (this was done on some servers back in the day, this is a classic server, right?)




Never seen that on any classic era server. Typically when a guild zoned in, and saw another guild about to pull, they just waited for them to wipe or left them to it. I suppose this is more of an honourable gentlemanly agreement.

However I only truly raided endgame on one server, so possible that Xev was just a cut above all the 'other' servers /smugface.

Whirled
02-06-2015, 10:40 AM
Never seen that on any classic era server. Typically when a guild zoned in, and saw another guild about to pull, they just waited for them to wipe or left them to it. I suppose this is more of an honourable gentlemanly agreement.
......


doh~

I played on Xev at times & concur to seeing a gentleman's agreement type system.

harnold
02-06-2015, 10:41 AM
The majority did not use a rotation. It was only like 2-3 servers. I dont remember which, but I think prexus may have been one of them.

But make no mistake about it, the over the top rediculous system we have here is the furthest from anything on any of the classic servers

Stormfists
02-06-2015, 10:47 AM
Xev wasn't rotation OR poopsock, more so:

- Whoever positioned/readied for pull first got first attempt.
- If they wiped, whoever zoned in second got a try.
- If they wiped also, back to first guild or third guild in waiting.

The only problem with a system like this on P99 is the absence of adult / gentlemanly behavior.

When poopsock/rotations is all you know, poopsock/rotations is all you do.

Pras.

Whirled
02-06-2015, 10:51 AM
Xev wasn't rotation OR poopsock, more so:

- Whoever positioned/readied for pull first got first attempt.
- If they wiped, whoever zoned in second got a try.
- If they wiped also, back to first guild or third guild in waiting.

The only problem with a system like this on P99 is the absence of adult / gentlemanly behavior.

When poopsock/rotations is all you know, poopsock/rotations is all you do.

Pras.

well how dare you? (j-k)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3WEMPZJD8

Joyelle
02-06-2015, 11:39 AM
The majority did not use a rotation. It was only like 2-3 servers. I dont remember which, but I think prexus may have been one of them.

But make no mistake about it, the over the top rediculous system we have here is the furthest from anything on any of the classic servers

I know Karana (my server) and The Rathe had rotations. They were completely player-made and player-enforced. The GMs were completely hands-off.

Now I didn't start playing on live until the very end of Kunark and did not really get into raiding until Velious, but I am pretty sure these 2 servers did not have rotations pre-Velious. Also, when they did adopt the rotations they were only for Classic and Kunark content. No current-expansion content was rotated.

The rotations were divided into tiers with a "gatekeeper" (not Gorenaire though, that's just really silly). We even had hate/fear/sky zones on the rotation. The difference was that the upper guilds dropped off the lower tiers because they really didn't need drops from them anymore, and concentrated on the "better" mobs.

When the high end guilds showed up at the same FFA content, this happened:

- Whoever positioned/readied for pull first got first attempt.
- If they wiped, whoever zoned in second got a try.
- If they wiped also, back to first guild or third guild in waiting.


I don't remember training / FTE / KSing / stalling with a warrior and BP cleric / heckling / getting someone else's tracker killed or banished on purpose, etc. We treated each other with respect and that made the lower guilds look up to us and aspire to join, instead of ganking stuff out from under them and being complete assholes. We could have done that if we wanted to, in a heartbeat, but we felt that taking the high road was far better than pixels for a 7th alt.


The only problem with a system like this on P99 is the absence of adult / gentlemanly behavior.


This is exactly correct.

Man0warr
02-06-2015, 12:06 PM
Servers didn't really need a rotation for post Velious content - there was so much content that the raid guilds naturally formed themselves into tiers based on their gear progression. But people were also pretty adult towards each other too.

The only reason Kunark/Classic content was rotated on The Rathe for a long long time is almost all because of epic quests. Also because stuff like CT/Inny/VP got revamped with better rewards.

Difference here is there are way more raid guilds, and TMO decided to use their alts to control all content on the server for over 2 years instead of being grown ups and sharing. Which caused the raid scene to be so hateful and toxic that revenge guilds like IB/FE came into existence and eventually the petitionquest forced Rogean to make changes.

Stormfists
02-06-2015, 12:11 PM
Lets face the music...

If Rogean & Co wanted the current raiding scene fixed to be fairer for all rather than top heavy, they would have put something into place long ago or created trustworthy impartial and objective 'raid guide' programme to manage equality in their absence. In fact there are a million and one ways it could be better than it is now but the thurth is that management see nothing wrong, so aren't planning on changing it. And theres absolutely nothing wrong with their stance, after all its their server - we are merely guests.

...But hey, it's a song I like to dance to; got my poopsock aimed and ready!