A Question about the end of Class R Rotation

[eqnewb]

So there recently was a thread under raid discussion about the end of the rotation within Class R, due to certain guidelines not being met and/or it being made fair for all parties. Since threads there are limited to guild leaders only, I was just wanting to ask a few question myself to further understand what is going on. I am new to the server but I am looking to join a guild in the next few weeks and have yet to decide on a home, so I'd like to understand how class R works before I jump in the middle of what sounds like a cluster of political parties bickering for their own sides.

1. How did the original rotation system work, and why was it deemed inadequate to some parties to be ended?

2. Where as the recent "proposal" has been largely seen unfit by the majority of class R, what was different here from that of the original, and why are changes being made?

3. Why was a rotation setup in the first place? Isn't classic EQ about a healthy race for targets? (I can sort of answer that myself just by looking at my socks and what horrible things would happen).

4. If the new tier of guilds are having difficult breaking into class R, would a third class, simply made for low guilds, say class Newb, and be limited to low lvl targets. I'm not the person to ask for specfics, just offering the idea.

Again, I am new to server and unfamiliar with politics, but I think it is an interesting discussion to say the least.

[MaksimMazor]

Read this: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179670

[Joyelle]

Read this: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179670

Yea, because just like the rest of the internet, everything you read in RnF is 100% true and should be consulted when you need truthful information. :rolleyes:

[Dokt]

On p99 there were a few guilds killing most of the raid mobs.

A system was set up to separate the fastest mobilizing guilds from the rest, so that the newer or slower mobilizers could get loot too.

Then the slower mobilizing guilds had a cream rise to the top and they wanted further segregation. Then the rotation agreement of the players stopped.

also add the word toxic in here somewhere.

[ClownGuild]

Yea, because just like the rest of the internet, everything you read in RnF is 100% true and should be consulted when you need truthful information. :rolleyes:

Looks pretty truthful to me. I imagine some guilds would want those facts hidden though.

[Swish]

Dokt pretty much nailed it.

The rules are written by guilds who know they won't get caught out on them but simultaneously designed to catch out others that they don't want there anymore.

Tags: toxic, greedy, mom's basement nerds.

[Troubled]

gr8 b8

[Argh]

In short:

The old ruleset governing the rotation allowed for guilds to cooperate freely with one another without penalty. Large R guilds who rarely cooperated with other guilds thought small guilds were taking advantage of the system.

The only leverage the large R guilds have ever had to get rules changed (they are 3 of 10 R guilds) was by threatening to leave the rotation. They've used this strategy in the past to successfully drive three series of rule changes.

The main difference between all of those times and this most recent proposal is that the three previous threats were followed by a willingness to negotiate terms to address the issues the larger guilds had, whereas this most recent proposal was presented as a take it or leave it option and the other 7 of 10 guilds said no, thereby prompting the three larger guilds to officially leave the rotation.

Creation of Class R/Class C and the rotation:

The two class system was created by the server staff mostly due to the fact that one guild (TMO) had all of the raid content on lock down with one other cooperative raid force seeing very sporadic success (FE/IB) and the rest of the guilds seeing little to no content.

Once the two class system was officially created, all of the R guilds that were involved in the negotiations that birthed the system went to work on crafting the rotation agreement.

The rotation lasted for about a year, and for 99% of the people who were in Class-R, it was probably seen as a very healthy, cooperative, and successful time as they now got a chance to raid content that they had previously been blocked from. For the 1% of the people in class R who had to participate in FAP (the class-r officer/leader forums where the policy was crafted and disagreements were adjudicated) it was sheer hell and nobody in their right mind would want to participate in that again.

[Pheer]

It went down sort of like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT7TxMaZ4eM

[Daldaen]

1. Rotation allowed any guild to apply for a slot in a rotation. Each guild had a 3 hour window from time of spawn til they kill it before the mob became "FFA within Class R". The primary reason behind this was to prevent the mobs from going the full 6 hours at which point they become fully FFA and the Class C guilds who already get 75% of the raid content can snipe that mob.

There were several iterations of the rules here. In the first, a guild could determine a black-out period (hours in which they weren't responsible for the mob and the rotation would drop down to whomever was next on rotation and not in blackout). This resulted in the 24-hour guilds (the big 3 if you will), rarely reaching the top of the rotation but having to kill every mob at a shitty hour. After coming to the table, showing that these guilds were infact not getting more kills (which I believe was the original justification), black-out periods were removed. All guilds became responsible for their entire window when they were atop the rotation.

The second rule change came when guilds were consistently allying to kill mobs. IE a mob spawns in their old black-out period, where they don't typically have many members online, what would happen instead is they would call upon another guild in the rotation to help them kill this mob. There was also some dumb rule where if you were locked out, the rotation would skip you, if you assisted in the above case. What ended up happening was all guilds were allowed to choose a 12-hour window of time where they are allowed to ally with a guild (encouraging them to be able to take on solo any mob spawning the other half of the day).

The current fight is about a few things. One is just Chest wanting to screw over Omni. The other is the 12-hour allying rule. Guilds are occupying slots in the rotation and quite often not killing them themselves. Also due to the current rules, a guild assisting in a kill keeps its rotation slot and does not drop down. Even though they participated in the kill and split the loot. The goal (atleast from my point of view) of the most recent talks should've been saying no allying, you should share a rotation slot if you often ally for a mob OR keep the 12-hour allying but any time you assist in killing a mob - or kill a mob outside of your rotation slot (like after 3 hour window) you drop to the bottom of the rotation. (But the guild whose at the top of the rotation for this mob should always be dropped to the very bottom). The last is the reduction of a 3hour window where the rotation target is yours, down to 1 hour. This is just done to screw with the little guilds. I don't think its a good idea.

2. Changes are being made because the big 3 see the rotation moving too slow for their liking, leading to less pixels (let's be honest pixels are the motivation for every party involved here, big guild or small guild; they will continue to be until all mains have epics, etc. - IE Always). The reason for this - in their opinion - is too many guilds. Specifically, too many guilds who are occupying slots but can rarely kill mobs on their own with no assistance.

3. Class R was set up to give the majority of the Raiders on the server access to content that they previously were unable to access without vastly changing their play style (requiring full poopsocks, 96-hour tracking, Autofire jav-spam, etc.). The reason the rotation was set up, was to allow for a fair environment for everyone to share equally. Also there were some who wanted to do a rotation to prove the server could behave in a decent way, not rofltraining each other in a race for pixels. At this point, some feel it is not fair for their guild. Possibly that is an indication they should move to Class C. Or possibly it is an indication some rule changes are warranted - you may be the judge.

4. Possibly? I'm of the personal opinion that Maestro and Draco shouldn't be rotated. I'd tend to say Nagafen and Vox also, but they are a core part of claasic and people attempting to relive a classic experience should have access to them without 16-hours of socking.

I'm a member of one of the big three guilds. I don't participate in socking, tracking, CotH ducking, jav spamming or any of that shit beyond about 30minutes (Noble, or late in window sort of shit). I camp out my character and if Im around when my phone buzzes, and I'm not asleep... I will get on.

I think the push for a 1-hour engage window is pretty weak and I think those trying to claim altruism in saying this helps guilds in Velious are laughibly transparent. You're doing that to stick it to more casual guilds, nothing more.

Really the crux of the issue in my eyes is guilds allying frequently when they are unable to kill the mob. More over the guilds assisting don't get dropped down from their slot in the rotation. I think most people outside of the system believe it is logical that when two entities (let's say 1st slot and 3rd slot) kill a mob, both should drop down after participating. They had their chance to participate and get loot off the mob, you killed it, now you drop to the bottom. OR remove allying completely and if your guild is frequently requiring an ally to kill certain mobs or at certain times, come together and decide to occupy a single slot in the rotation as two different guilds.

ALL OF THAT BEING SAID.

The largest issue here is a non-classic feature the developers put in the prevent poopsocking. Variance.

If you remove Variance, put in place some common sense rules on poopsocking (You cannot have more than 3 players in zone when the mob spawns, and those tracking or even in zone - get rid of Mages - may not FTE)... So many issues go away. The problem for many casual guilds is the fact that they have to be available 16-hours of the day to kill a mob. For especially small guilds with few people from different time zones, this is very difficult. If you however do know the exact time of spawn and when your 3-hour window ends small guilds can much more easily plan ahead to down these mobs.

Variance has failed time and time again to prevent poopsocking. For fucks sake, there are Class C people sitting on the pad in VP when mobs aren't in window just incase of a sim repop. They poopsock fucking repops... Shits ridiculous. They poopsocked entire 96-hour windows too. It has been a colossal failure that rewards people for wasting their life staring at a wall NOT EVEN PLAYING THE GAME. It's SOOO dumb.

GMs need to approve rules that limit numbers of players in zone when a mob spawns. If your guild cares to contest the mob, be underneath that number of players. If they don't, exp away. A simple hardcap on the number of guildmates in zone would be easy to /time, /who, /screenshot spawned boss /time again.

Then the devs just have to remove variance or drop it down to a reasonable 30min or less. So that the game is far more classic.

PS - I apologize if the post has areas of scatterbrainedness. I picked it up and kept writing 3-4 different times inbetween working on stuff.

[arsenalpow]

The population of this server can't be trusted in a no variance environment. Just look at the noble cycle or the raid scene before variance was implemented. I wouldn't hate reduced variance but some variance is necessary to keep people honest.

[Daldaen]

The population of this server can't be trusted in a no variance environment. Just look at the noble cycle or the raid scene before variance was implemented. I wouldn't hate reduced variance but some variance is necessary to keep people honest.

This is already handled by the no FTE with trackers situation. Noble and the raid scene before did not have that rule in place. Keep it a mage battle or if that's a problem change it to no FTE with someone in zone when mob spawns. Don't really care which.

I'm fine with 15-30min variance for a little element of randomness but would prefer the classic 0 variance.

And yes slow day. I was under the impression I was going to be heading 5 hours south to do some field reviews but apparently that has been postponed and no one told me.

[Alpacalips]

Honest question, When the new C/R system was put in place one of the main reasons was so that smaller guilds could gear up, and gain raiding experience so they would eventually be able to compete with the larger guilds.

Has any Class R guild realistically worked to improve themselves in a chance to compete with Class C?

As an outsider it appears to me that none of the guilds in Class R are working to improve, and simply want to abuse the system put in place by the GM's, to maximize their pixel intake without actually having to put any significant effort in to do so.

[Argh]

Really the crux of the issue in my eyes is guilds allying frequently when they are unable to kill the mob. More over the guilds assisting don't get dropped down from their slot in the rotation. I think most people outside of the system believe it is logical that when two entities (let's say 1st slot and 3rd slot) kill a mob, both should drop down after participating. They had their chance to participate and get loot off the mob, you killed it, now you drop to the bottom. OR remove allying completely and if your guild is frequently requiring an ally to kill certain mobs or at certain times, come together and decide to occupy a single slot in the rotation as two different guilds.

A proposal centered around getting rid of alliances completely probably would have passed had they not tried to tie it to a tier system that demanded guilds solo kill Gore to be allowed to solo kill vs, ct, and trak. Under that proposal if a guild sharing a rotation slot with another guild on Gore (for instance Omni/Indignation/A-Team share a Gore slot) they would be tied to those guilds on VS CT and Trak as well, even though those three mobs are considerably easier than Gore (I don't think there has ever been an instance of a guild not solo killing VS, and I doubt there's ever been more than two instances for CT).

In the Teir system they proposed months ago when GT and MC were attempting to enter the rotation Gore was the last mob to get access for and there was mostly a consensus on the structure of that system.

[Culkasi]

@Daldaen

Very good objective post - thank you

[Argh]

The population of this server can't be trusted in a no variance environment. Just look at the noble cycle or the raid scene before variance was implemented. I wouldn't hate reduced variance but some variance is necessary to keep people honest.

Every mob wouldn't turn into the noble cycle because there are still rules governing Trackers for actual raid mobs.

[arsenalpow]

Every mob wouldn't turn into the noble cycle because there are still rules governing Trackers for actual raid mobs.

Moving the sock from on the spawn point to the zoneline or one zone away doesn't mean it's suddenly a healthy raid environment. People will still sock. They're doing so right now with 16 hours of variance. Removing variance entirely just makes socking more convenient. How is that possibly a fix??

[Daldaen]

A proposal centered around getting rid of alliances completely probably would have passed had they not tried to tie it to a tier system that demanded guilds solo kill Gore to be allowed to solo kill vs, ct, and trak. Under that proposal if a guild sharing a rotation slot with another guild on Gore (for instance Omni/Indignation/A-Team share a Gore slot) they would be tied to those guilds on VS CT and Trak as well, even though those three mobs are considerably easier than Gore (I don't think there has ever been an instance of a guild not solo killing VS, and I doubt there's ever been more than two instances for CT).

In the Teir system they proposed months ago when GT and MC were attempting to enter the rotation Gore was the last mob to get access for and there was mostly a consensus on that point.

I won't defend the tiering system. It's dumb and clearly a grab attempt at getting more pixels. Requiring VS be rotated with the same rotation as Gore is dumb.

But I do thing that there is a shread of truth to the reason that there are two rotation slots on Gore with three guilds is because his loot is so terrible. If Gore dropped better gear (or epic pieces beyond a bard scale / pally book) you would see more 2-guild rotation slots or maybe some single slots. Cause I'm sure some of those guilds can solo kill an R Gore, or atleast two of them can handily. But they have no qualms sharing a rotation slot because splitting two McVaxius Horns isn't a big deal. If Trakanon's loot was worse you'd see more guilds sharing rotation slots on him. For example. But because he has several BIS BPs (including Donals) and Trak Guts, as well as Trak Teeth you can sell the MQs to and fund months of port stones/recharges -- guilds will occupy single rotation slots even though during a solid chunk of the day there is no way they can kill him by themselves.

So the pixel lust does go both ways IMO.

[arsenalpow]

I won't defend the tiering system. It's dumb and clearly a grab attempt at getting more pixels. Requiring VS be rotated with the same rotation as Gore is dumb.

But I do thing that there is a shread of truth to the reason that there are two rotation slots on Gore with three guilds is because his loot is so terrible. If Gore dropped better gear (or epic pieces beyond a bard scale / pally book) you would see more 2-guild rotation slots or maybe some single slots. Cause I'm sure some of those guilds can solo kill an R Gore, or atleast two of them can handily. But they have no qualms sharing a rotation slot because splitting two McVaxius Horns isn't a big deal. If Trakanon's loot was worse you'd see more guilds sharing rotation slots on him. For example. But because he has several BIS BPs (including Donals) and Trak Guts, as well as Trak Teeth you can sell the MQs to and fund months of port stones/recharges -- guilds will occupy single rotation slots even though during a solid chunk of the day there is no way they can kill him by themselves.

So the pixel lust does go both ways IMO.

For the record the tier system was Sirken's addition.

[Daldaen]

Moving the sock from on the spawn point to the zoneline or one zone away doesn't mean it's suddenly a healthy raid environment. People will still sock. They're doing so right now with 16 hours of variance. Removing variance entirely just makes socking more convenient. How is that possibly a fix??

Because it means guilds that want to compete on mobs can do so in the timespan of a Simpsons episode and then go on about their day. Allowing people with lives to partake if they know when the spawn is due.

Also it allows smaller (or any guilds but it specifically helps them) guilds to put out a notice that at time X the mob will spawn, be buffed and camped out beforehand. Players with only a single character can plan to arrive before and not lock their main character in limbo for 16-hours just so that they may have a shot at participating in a kill.

Chest - Please don't go full retard and claim Variance is a good idea. Or that it's removal wouldn't net some benefits, and those benefits outweigh the costs.

[Daldaen]

For the record the tier system was Sirken's addition.

No. It was yours. Your first version of the proposal, as posted in the Raid Discussion forum, includes a tiering system with Talendor and Gorenaire as gatekeepers. Sirken got in Vent with you guys after that post. Unless he was guiding you before that post occured.

Sirken's addition was changing the gatekeeper to Tier 2/3 I believe.

[arsenalpow]

Because it means guilds that want to compete on mobs can do so in the timespan of a Simpsons episode and then go on about their day. Allowing people with lives to partake if they know when the spawn is due.

Also it allows smaller (or any guilds but it specifically helps them) guilds to put out a notice that at time X the mob will spawn, be buffed and camped out beforehand. Players with only a single character can plan to arrive before and not lock their main character in limbo for 16-hours just so that they may have a shot at participating in a kill.

Chest - Please don't go full retard and claim Variance is a good idea. Or that it's removal wouldn't net some benefits, and those benefits outweigh the costs.

I don't like variance, but what I like even less is the current raidscene. Variance sucks, but I think it's the lesser evil compared to scheduled socking at an exact time.

[arsenalpow]

No. It was yours.

Sirken's addition was changing the gatekeeper to Tier 2/3 I believe.

Listen moron. You aren't an officer of your guild, you have 2nd and 3rd hand knowledge of the situation. I sat for hours hammering out these stupid fucking proposals so we could try and repair the gaps in the class R rotation. We never had a tier system planned out but once Sirken caught wind of the disharmony is class R he had a meeting with one of my officers and strongly recommended a tier system. Now believe whatever the fuck you want but I'm pretty much tired of all the rhetoric and hearsay. I'm telling you that a tiered system wasn't in our initial plan, but when the senior server GM strongly recommends something you fucking do it.

[Daldaen]

I don't like variance, but what I like even less is the current raidscene. Variance sucks, but I think it's the lesser evil compared to scheduled socking at an exact time.

Then I'm going to have to disagree with your opinion.

How is 6 guilds competing for a mob, with a maximum of 3 players in zone when the mob is due to spawn and none of those players allowed to FTE, all spending a maximum of 30 tracking/socking, a worse situation than:

3 guilds staring at a wall for 16-hours with 2+ full groups formed in zone, and the only way you can compete is to match their poopsocking.

The current system rewards neckbeardism. PLAYING the game should yield rewards. STARING AT A WALL should not.

Can you atleast agree with that statement? If you can you should find that variance is not the lesser evil.

[Daldaen]

Listen moron. You aren't an officer of your guild, you have 2nd and 3rd hand knowledge of the situation. I sat for hours hammering out these stupid fucking proposals so we could try and repair the gaps in the class R rotation. We never had a tier system planned out but once Sirken caught wind of the disharmony is class R he had a meeting with one of my officers and strongly recommended a tier system. Now believe whatever the fuck you want but I'm pretty much tired of all the rhetoric and hearsay. I'm telling you that a tiered system wasn't in our initial plan, but when the senior server GM strongly recommends something you fucking do it.

Sirken has recommended BDA go to Class C several times... Just saying Chest. And Taken for that matter. But still. The Towelie of GMs isn't infallible.

See my edit anyways.

[khanable]

Sirken has recommended BDA go to Class C several times... Just saying Chest. And Taken for that matter. But still.

See my edit anyways.

http://i.imgur.com/uxtkt.jpg

[Argh]

Listen moron. You aren't an officer of your guild, you have 2nd and 3rd hand knowledge of the situation. I sat for hours hammering out these stupid fucking proposals so we could try and repair the gaps in the class R rotation. We never had a tier system planned out but once Sirken caught wind of the disharmony is class R he had a meeting with one of my officers and strongly recommended a tier system. Now believe whatever the fuck you want but I'm pretty much tired of all the rhetoric and hearsay. I'm telling you that a tiered system wasn't in our initial plan, but when the senior server GM strongly recommends something you fucking do it.

You guys proposed a tiered system 6 months ago when GT/MC wanted to enter the rotation.

[Argh]

Sirken has recommended BDA go to Class C several times... Just saying.

http://i.imgur.com/uxtkt.jpg

[arsenalpow]

Sirken strongly recommending something for class R policy is wildly different than Sirken believing that you'd get a better pixel share as a guild in class C with repops or whatever terrible math he was using.

[Whirled]

OPs question is good. In before RnF tho

[Kaera]

Basically, after benefiting from the rotation and getting what they want which is limiting TMO, they kill it off to suit themselves.

[Daldaen]

Sirken strongly recommending something for class R policy is wildly different than Sirken believing that you'd get a better pixel share as a guild in class C with repops or whatever terrible math he was using.

Eh, perhaps. Was just saying, electing to listen to him on a player-maintained and agreed upon rotation when he and others from the staff refuse to make an official rotation, seems nonsensical. If he doesn't feel strongly enough for the staff to take a position, why should his opinion on player rotations matter?

But regardless of whose idea the tiering system was. It was and is a dumb idea.

Remove Variance and add poopsocking limits.
Rotation gets one change: Guilds can no longer ally, but instead must choose to share a slot in a rotations for mobs which are too difficult for them to handle whenever it spawns.

For reference here is what I'm talking about. Between November and December these were the guilds who allied on mobs which they didn't share a rotation slot on:

Date Mob Rotation Cleared
11/02 Inny Omni Omni/AG
11/03 CT AZ Omni/AZ
12/10 Tal AG AG/Omni
12/12 Trak AG AG/AT
12/17 Inny Euro Omni/Europa
12/31 Trak Euro Omni/Europa

(I'm sure this isn't going to format well)

It's basically only occurring on Trak, Inny, CT and Talendor. These guilds would probably be better suited agreeing to share a rotation slot and be able to cover them whenever they spawn. For all the other mobs there wouldn't really be an impact.


Or we can change that any time you ally or are part of a kill, you are dropped to the bottom of the rotation list. Whatever you want to hash out.

[Tiggles]

Basically, after benefiting from the rotation and getting what they want which is limiting TMO, they kill it off to suit themselves.

The guild responsible for this is BDA and Taken.

They will drive away server population worse than IB and TMO ever could because they work together to deny lower level guilds mobs whilst IB and TMO fought against each other.

If the staff does not bring BDA and Taken upto class C and prevent them from reforming using a loophole back to Class R. No other guild will ever see any content that is not shared between BDA and Taken.

If this continues you will see guilds fold and players quit in droves. The staff has to intervene.

That or abolish this silly Tier system all together. TMO AND IB will sit down and discuss ways for lower tier guilds to still see content.

[Erati]

not enough "listen brother"'s in Chest's responses to Dald

2/10

[Juntsie]

Juntsie tink dis entire dispute ridiculous joke and raider dat oppose equitable distrobution of merbs need to put down poopsock and learn to live.

Juntsie stand by long-time policy of GM-enforced equitable rotation for all guild wit ability to bash mob and no variance (wit plenty of time after pop for engage, so no stupid tracking or poopsock silliness).

Neckbeard psuedo-legal documents and backroom dealings NOT CLASSIC.

Fix server by: (1) impose equitable GM-enforced rotation between all raid guilds [fun from bashing mob should be more important dan stupid 15 year old pixels]; (2) make new blue server dat have no rotation requirement and bare minimum PnP to give true neckbeard option [no one will play on dis server, and it will die quickly, cuz no one truly enjoy stupid tings like poopsock and tracking]; (3) kill da variance, it only cause poopsock to become full; (4) release Velious; (5) wipe blue servers clean; (6) grant Juntsie honorary GM status and authorize him to solve raid dispute with swift, off-the-cuff, in game justice; (7) pay Juntsie reasoanble hourly rate for his dispute resolution GM services; and (8) write special rule that confirm no conflict of interest when GM Juntsie engages in intimate swampy encounters wit HOT FEMALES in various raid guilds dat he baby-sits.

DO THIS AND ALL WILL PROFIT. FAIL TO DO DIS AND ALL WILL BE LOST.

[Hastley]

30 year old men with no real lives debating 16 year old elf simulator. How do you virgins continue to have this many issues. This is everquest, not debate quest, kill the fucking mobs when they spawn or dont, if you cannot kill them , go play another game. Most of all though, get another hobby, spending 10 hours a day on this forum writing policies that dont matter and wont be enforced and dont matter cannot possibly of be a productive use of any of your times.

TLDR: GROW THE FUCK UP

[eqnewb]

I would really rather this not become a new RnF post. Please keep conversation civil, educated, and objective

[eqnewb]

First of all, thanks to Argh and Daldaen especially for their objective input.
Secondly, Rants and Flames post is just that, everyone pointing fingers and lobbying for their side, or someone poking fun at those who are getting so emotionally attached to the issue (I'm not judging, I've been in a similar situation in the past!).

So now, to just make some observations from somewhat who, as I like to repeat, has not participated in the raid/guild scene on this server and is only now starting to figure out where I want to go. I do not make any harsh judgments, because everyone has their own style by which they want to play the game, and everyone, no matter how hardcore or casual, wants to be able to get level 60, do their epic, kill dragons, and above all else, have fun. Isn't that the whole point of us playing this 15 year old game? To relive the great memories of being chased down by polar bears and camping elite gnolls, to fighting giants and frogloks and vampires, to gathering an army to take down a dragon!
Observation 1: There is clearly a gap between guilds in class R. There seems to be the "big 3" as many people have mentioned, a middle tier of guilds who are quite capable in their own right but perhaps are not as powerful in their own right, the "middle tier" we can call them, and then the bottom tier, which seems to be the more casual guilds and/or the new guilds trying to break into class R. This of course completely ignores the fact that class C is an entire tier above all of these, as they are the "competitive" raiders as the GMs/servers like to call it.
Comments: I know from my experiences in raiding that this type of divide is always going to happen naturally. You are going to have your high end hardcores that the majority of the server hates and claims they have no life and just poop sock for days and ruin the fun for everybody. You have the 2nd tier hardcores who in all reality are just as devoted to the game as the 1st tier hardcores if but only they had more time to play, but real life takes up more of their time. Then you have the "casual" hardcores, people who call themselves casuals but in reality, they spend too much time in Norrath to be a simple casual player. And you could continue breaking these tiers further and further down to each individual player, as everyone has their own ideal way to play the game, whether that be to be the best player on the server, have the best gear, compete with other guilds, or simply relive old dungeons, kill a dragon, and socialize with other people who share an interest in Norrath!
Observation 2: Ending the rotation seems to be a very unpopular decision. The top 3 guilds claim that they are tired of sharing rotation slots with the lower tier (in all honesty, I would say it's just the bottom tier of class R, the middle class R guilds I doubt they have a problem with) of class R and would rather just FFA the loots, as they have the advantage when it comes to class R mobs (naturally, they are the more powerful guilds). The middle tier seems to be very accusing and pointing fingers at those 3, with trying to cite different situations when they could not compromise or whatever else. Finger pointing back and forth ensues, and thus you have our 75 page long rants and flames post (of which I'm only on page 20something, but you can only listen to politicians in the making rant for so long). The bottom tier of class R clearly is unhappy with this decision because it effectively prevents them from getting a shot at a lot of targets they would have otherwise got to attempt under the old system.
Comments: What are the pros/cons with this situation? If class R mobs go to FFA, I would think it would make for a healthier type of competition on mobs. First, because every guild would have a shot at every mobs. Also, because of the class R restrictions on mobs, the "big 3" would still be restricted from claiming every mob all the time. And I do not believe the middle tier would be unable to compete; quite the opposite really. If we think about the outcomes, say the "big 3" win 60% of the loot and the rest of class R win 40%, the "big 3" are naturally larger guilds, and thus have to split the gear amongst a larger player base, while some of the middle tier guilds tend to be smaller, with a lower player base to split gear amongst. (perhaps not entirely accurate, but generally speaking I would expect this to be true). Continuing along this line of thinking, if middle to bottom tier guilds are having trouble competing for mobs, they could team up to contest larger dragons and/or compete with the "big 3" on things. From what I have gathered, this was already occuring under the old system, only it was on their rotation slot, rather than in a FFA situation.
Obviously, FFA comes with its own drawbacks. First and foremost, the bottom tier guilds, even if they tried to form alliances, would have significant problems competing with the larger and more experienced guilds. Secondly, as we have seen with class C, lines are quickly drawn in the sand and people who once worked together would quickly become blood enemies, which quickly leaks into the general population of guilds and hatred ensues. I have already experienced guilds showing their unappreciation towards others guilds in situations where perhaps someone was accidentally trained, or they pulled a mob from someone's camp. Rather than react in a civil manner, people tend to assume the worst in these situations. This kind of divide is already starting as we have seen in RnF, guild leaders/officers are already voicing their disapproval of one another.
Observation 3: The dissolving of the rotation is a loot, or pixel as many people tend to term it around these parts, driven move. No matter how the "big 3" guilds want to sugar coat it, they are unhappy about losing loots to lower tier guilds, and believe a FFA situation would allow the situation to normalize in their favor.
Comments: What is wrong with this? Why are they so against admitting to such desires? I have a theory: They are trying to not become what they claim to despise, the hardcores, the class Cs! Making a political move to benefit themselves and bring more loots to their guild is indeed a selfish move, but what is wrong with an officer core pushing to bring the best for their own members? Is that not what they are supposed to do? If they are acting in what they believe is in the best interest of their respective guilds, then by all means, more power to them. Obviously it is an unpopular decision, but is that not how the world typically works? Tier levels of raiders at work here, I say.
In rebuttal, the mid tier R guilds can still compete. They can still fight, and with much more motivation, I would imagine, as they are trying to prove they can still compete with the "big 3". I would imagine this could develop into some healthy competition amongst guilds, if handled appropriately. Of course, it could always go horribly wrong and end with guilds training one another and suspensions being levied to everyone.
Observation 4: The "big 3" are afraid of Class C. Perhaps not without good reason. Their officers understand they cannot realistically compete with TMO/IB on a regular basis to earn enough loots for their respective guilds. Again, they are operating to achieve the highest possible loot numbers for their members, as that is what it always boils down to in this and most every PVE MMO: loots. What other tangible currency is there in EQ? Earning loot is the only way to achieve both wealth as a guild, and to reward its players for loyalty. I feel like I am talking about medieval Europe, when the lords would give loyalty to their kings in return for land and riches.
Comments: I do not have a realistic solution to this situation. I'm not sure there is one. It is the curse of the 2nd tier raiders. They will continue to bully class R, or they will move to Class C and go from the bullies to the little kids being picked on. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that is the situation and the line they are trying to stay so close to but not cross.

What is there as a reasonable conclusion to all of this? Ending the R rotation may not be all bad, though it could have some long-term side effects unforseen atm. There definitely is a disparity between guilds in class R, but perhaps an even larger one between those and that of class C. Perhaps FFA would cause a shift in power, and perhaps not. I find it a very interesting topic to learn more about, as the politics in MMOs have always interested me. Everyone has their own side, and what they want is right and what someone else wants is wrong. Cooperation can be difficult in those situations, and I do not have an answer. I am not sure anyone does, and so perhaps FFA is inevitable.
I want to reiterate that I do not know anyone here personally and I do not know the situations 100% completely. There are 2 sides to every story and then the truth. If I misspoke about a situation, please continue to fill me in, as again I find the political intricacies quite fascinating. If some grammar/spelling is messed up, I apologize for that, but I'm not an English major =P

[eqnewb]

P.S. I love Juntsie's sig

[Man0warr]

If the staff does not bring BDA and Taken upto class C and prevent them from reforming using a loophole back to Class R. No other guild will ever see any content that is not shared between BDA and Taken.

It's impossible in Class R for 2 guilds to take every mob - the lockouts prevent it.

That or abolish this silly Tier system all together. TMO AND IB will sit down and discuss ways for lower tier guilds to still see content.

No you won't, you had that chance already for years and forced Rogean to get involved.

[Nadril]

30 year old men with no real lives debating 16 year old elf simulator. How do you virgins continue to have this many issues. This is everquest, not debate quest, kill the fucking mobs when they spawn or dont, if you cannot kill them , go play another game. Most of all though, get another hobby, spending 10 hours a day on this forum writing policies that dont matter and wont be enforced and dont matter cannot possibly of be a productive use of any of your times.

TLDR: GROW THE FUCK UP

[Whirled]

Juntsie tink dis entire dispute ridiculous joke and raider dat oppose equitable distrobution of merbs need to put down poopsock and learn to live.

Juntsie stand by long-time policy of GM-enforced equitable rotation for all guild wit ability to bash mob and no variance (wit plenty of time after pop for engage, so no stupid tracking or poopsock silliness).

Neckbeard psuedo-legal documents and backroom dealings NOT CLASSIC.

Fix server by: (1) impose equitable GM-enforced rotation between all raid guilds [fun from bashing mob should be more important dan stupid 15 year old pixels]; (2) make new blue server dat have no rotation requirement and bare minimum PnP to give true neckbeard option [no one will play on dis server, and it will die quickly, cuz no one truly enjoy stupid tings like poopsock and tracking]; (3) kill da variance, it only cause poopsock to become full; (4) release Velious; (5) wipe blue servers clean; (6) grant Juntsie honorary GM status and authorize him to solve raid dispute with swift, off-the-cuff, in game justice; (7) pay Juntsie reasoanble hourly rate for his dispute resolution GM services; and (8) write special rule that confirm no conflict of interest when GM Juntsie engages in intimate swampy encounters wit HOT FEMALES in various raid guilds dat he baby-sits.

DO THIS AND ALL WILL PROFIT. FAIL TO DO DIS AND ALL WILL BE LOST.

+1
Some good things in here^

[kaev]

30 year old men with no real lives debating 16 year old elf simulator. How do you virgins continue to have this many issues. This is everquest, not debate quest, kill the fucking mobs when they spawn or dont, if you cannot kill them , go play another game. Most of all though, get another hobby, spending 10 hours a day on this forum writing policies that dont matter and wont be enforced and dont matter cannot possibly of be a productive use of any of your times.

TLDR: GROW THE FUCK UP

You trying to kill off p99 bro? This community owes its life to the vigorous denial of adulthood. If everybody here were to suddenly "grow the fuck up" you'd be left with maybe 50 people dinking around with an academic exercise, and their friends would be laughing at them for puttering about with child's toys. Now, if you could somehow compel RL political hacks to grow the fuck up, that would be grand.

[Swish]

This is everquest, not debate quest

Gotta stop debating on a forum guys, you heard the man!

[maskedmelon]

Date Mob Rotation Cleared
11/02 Inny Omni Omni/AG
11/03 CT AZ Omni/AZ
12/10 Tal AG AG/Omni
12/12 Trak AG AG/AT
12/17 Inny Euro Omni/Europa
12/31 Trak Euro Omni/Europa



That looks like so e recruiting material for Omni ^^ I am not sure that I like the idea of discouraging cooperation, which is what our game is really built upon. However, a system that allows for allowances in this fashion is of course open to exploitation. Any guild that becomes large enough could easily multiply its raid slots by splitting into several smaller entities.

I am not sure what the solution to that would be, but barring any form of official/perma alliances would likely be a necessary place to start :/

[Man0warr]

That looks like so e recruiting material for Omni ^^ I am not sure that I like the idea of discouraging cooperation, which is what our game is really built upon. However, a system that allows for allowances in this fashion is of course open to exploitation. Any guild that becomes large enough could easily multiply its raid slots by splitting into several smaller entities.

I am not sure what the solution to that would be, but barring any form of official/perma alliances would likely be a necessary place to start :/

Yes, well those guilds involved wanted no part in disallowing of alliances or forcing them into one entity.

They would rather the exploitation continue.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

30 year old men with no real lives debating 16 year old elf simulator. How do you virgins continue to have this many issues. This is everquest, not debate quest, kill the fucking mobs when they spawn or dont, if you cannot kill them , go play another game. Most of all though, get another hobby, spending 10 hours a day on this forum writing policies that dont matter and wont be enforced and dont matter cannot possibly of be a productive use of any of your times.

TLDR: GROW THE FUCK UP

It's the age we live in. This kind of stuff is happening everywhere, not just on p99.

Thanks Obama.

[Uteunayr]

You trying to kill off p99 bro? This community owes its life to the vigorous denial of adulthood. If everybody here were to suddenly "grow the fuck up" you'd be left with maybe 50 people dinking around with an academic exercise, and their friends would be laughing at them for puttering about with child's toys. Now, if you could somehow compel RL political hacks to grow the fuck up, that would be grand.

Somehow Kaev always has the best way for summarizing up points in a neat, concise paragraph.

[Man0warr]

would you shut the fuck up already? you talk out your ass and don't have a clue what is going on but you think you can educate people based on shit you heard, which ends up being translated incorrectly.

Not trying to educate anyone, this is a forum for a video game where we are discussing stupid shit that doesn't matter.

[kaev]

Not trying to educate anyone, this is a forum for a video game where we are discussing stupid shit that doesn't matter.

Thanks! Needed a new sig and Yendor's been letting me down, trying to pawn off his old stuff on me when I clearly needed a fresh quote relevant to the foolishness du jour.

[eqnewb]

First of all, thanks to Argh and Daldaen especially for their objective input.
Secondly, Rants and Flames post is just that, everyone pointing fingers and lobbying for their side, or someone poking fun at those who are getting so emotionally attached to the issue (I'm not judging, I've been in a similar situation in the past!).

So now, to just make some observations from somewhat who, as I like to repeat, has not participated in the raid/guild scene on this server and is only now starting to figure out where I want to go. I do not make any harsh judgments, because everyone has their own style by which they want to play the game, and everyone, no matter how hardcore or casual, wants to be able to get level 60, do their epic, kill dragons, and above all else, have fun. Isn't that the whole point of us playing this 15 year old game? To relive the great memories of being chased down by polar bears and camping elite gnolls, to fighting giants and frogloks and vampires, to gathering an army to take down a dragon!

Observation 1: There is clearly a gap between guilds in class R. There seems to be the "big 3" as many people have mentioned, a middle tier of guilds who are quite capable in their own right but perhaps are not as powerful in their own right, the "middle tier" we can call them, and then the bottom tier, which seems to be the more casual guilds and/or the new guilds trying to break into class R. This of course completely ignores the fact that class C is an entire tier above all of these, as they are the "competitive" raiders as the GMs/servers like to call it.

Comments: I know from my experiences in raiding that this type of divide is always going to happen naturally. You are going to have your high end hardcores that the majority of the server hates and claims they have no life and just poop sock for days and ruin the fun for everybody. You have the 2nd tier hardcores who in all reality are just as devoted to the game as the 1st tier hardcores if but only they had more time to play, but real life takes up more of their time. Then you have the "casual" hardcores, people who call themselves casuals but in reality, they spend too much time in Norrath to be a simple casual player. And you could continue breaking these tiers further and further down to each individual player, as everyone has their own ideal way to play the game, whether that be to be the best player on the server, have the best gear, compete with other guilds, or simply relive old dungeons, kill a dragon, and socialize with other people who share an interest in Norrath!

Observation 2: Ending the rotation seems to be a very unpopular decision. The top 3 guilds claim that they are tired of sharing rotation slots with the lower tier (in all honesty, I would say it's just the bottom tier of class R, the middle class R guilds I doubt they have a problem with) of class R and would rather just FFA the loots, as they have the advantage when it comes to class R mobs (naturally, they are the more powerful guilds). The middle tier seems to be very accusing and pointing fingers at those 3, with trying to cite different situations when they could not compromise or whatever else. Finger pointing back and forth ensues, and thus you have our 75 page long rants and flames post (of which I'm only on page 20something, but you can only listen to politicians in the making rant for so long). The bottom tier of class R clearly is unhappy with this decision because it effectively prevents them from getting a shot at a lot of targets they would have otherwise got to attempt under the old system.

Comments: What are the pros/cons with this situation? If class R mobs go to FFA, I would think it would make for a healthier type of competition on mobs. First, because every guild would have a shot at every mobs. Also, because of the class R restrictions on mobs, the "big 3" would still be restricted from claiming every mob all the time. And I do not believe the middle tier would be unable to compete; quite the opposite really. If we think about the outcomes, say the "big 3" win 60% of the loot and the rest of class R win 40%, the "big 3" are naturally larger guilds, and thus have to split the gear amongst a larger player base, while some of the middle tier guilds tend to be smaller, with a lower player base to split gear amongst. (perhaps not entirely accurate, but generally speaking I would expect this to be true). Continuing along this line of thinking, if middle to bottom tier guilds are having trouble competing for mobs, they could team up to contest larger dragons and/or compete with the "big 3" on things. From what I have gathered, this was already occuring under the old system, only it was on their rotation slot, rather than in a FFA situation.

Obviously, FFA comes with its own drawbacks. First and foremost, the bottom tier guilds, even if they tried to form alliances, would have significant problems competing with the larger and more experienced guilds. Secondly, as we have seen with class C, lines are quickly drawn in the sand and people who once worked together would quickly become blood enemies, which quickly leaks into the general population of guilds and hatred ensues. I have already experienced guilds showing their unappreciation towards others guilds in situations where perhaps someone was accidentally trained, or they pulled a mob from someone's camp. Rather than react in a civil manner, people tend to assume the worst in these situations. This kind of divide is already starting as we have seen in RnF, guild leaders/officers are already voicing their disapproval of one another.

Observation 3: The dissolving of the rotation is a loot, or pixel as many people tend to term it around these parts, driven move. No matter how the "big 3" guilds want to sugar coat it, they are unhappy about losing loots to lower tier guilds, and believe a FFA situation would allow the situation to normalize in their favor.

Comments: What is wrong with this? Why are they so against admitting to such desires? I have a theory: They are trying to not become what they claim to despise, the hardcores, the class Cs! Making a political move to benefit themselves and bring more loots to their guild is indeed a selfish move, but what is wrong with an officer core pushing to bring the best for their own members? Is that not what they are supposed to do? If they are acting in what they believe is in the best interest of their respective guilds, then by all means, more power to them. Obviously it is an unpopular decision, but is that not how the world typically works? Tier levels of raiders at work here, I say.
In rebuttal, the mid tier R guilds can still compete. They can still fight, and with much more motivation, I would imagine, as they are trying to prove they can still compete with the "big 3". I would imagine this could develop into some healthy competition amongst guilds, if handled appropriately. Of course, it could always go horribly wrong and end with guilds training one another and suspensions being levied to everyone.

Observation 4: The "big 3" are afraid of Class C. Perhaps not without good reason. Their officers understand they cannot realistically compete with TMO/IB on a regular basis to earn enough loots for their respective guilds. Again, they are operating to achieve the highest possible loot numbers for their members, as that is what it always boils down to in this and most every PVE MMO: loots. What other tangible currency is there in EQ? Earning loot is the only way to achieve both wealth as a guild, and to reward its players for loyalty. I feel like I am talking about medieval Europe, when the lords would give loyalty to their kings in return for land and riches.

Comments: I do not have a realistic solution to this situation. I'm not sure there is one. It is the curse of the 2nd tier raiders. They will continue to bully class R, or they will move to Class C and go from the bullies to the little kids being picked on. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that is the situation and the line they are trying to stay so close to but not cross.

What is there as a reasonable conclusion to all of this? Ending the R rotation may not be all bad, though it could have some long-term side effects unforseen atm. There definitely is a disparity between guilds in class R, but perhaps an even larger one between those and that of class C. Perhaps FFA would cause a shift in power, and perhaps not. I find it a very interesting topic to learn more about, as the politics in MMOs have always interested me. Everyone has their own side, and what they want is right and what someone else wants is wrong. Cooperation can be difficult in those situations, and I do not have an answer. I am not sure anyone does, and so perhaps FFA is inevitable.

I want to reiterate that I do not know anyone here personally and I do not know the situations 100% completely. There are 2 sides to every story and then the truth. If I misspoke about a situation, please continue to fill me in, as again I find the political intricacies quite fascinating. If some grammar/spelling is messed up, I apologize for that, but I'm not an English major =P

[Rararboker]

"First, because every guild would have a shot at every mobs."

ONLY if your willing to wake up to batphone calls at 3:30AM and kill a mob within ten minutes.


Aside from that line which caught my eye.....Wow that was a wall of text. Can we get a summary?

[Kekephee]

whoaaaaaa daaaaaaaamn

[kaev]

First of all, thanks to Argh and Daldaen especially for their objective input.
[wall o'text]

The appearance of "objective input" is easy. The reality might be just a tad harder to achieve when the posters in question have long histories in the context and their own dogs in the hunt. just sayin...

[YendorLootmonkey]

would you shut the fuck up already? you talk out your ass and don't have a clue what is going on but you think you can educate people based on shit you heard, which ends up being translated incorrectly.

Ouch, that's your guildmate, bro. You'll have to excuse Metallikus, he's still sore over falling for the ol' "Sure, go ahead and loot our VP dragon... it's rotting anyway... oh, wait, did you just ninjaloot our kill? Sending a petition now..." gag.

For the TMO peanut gallery who would love nothing more than to have a Class R guild moved to Class C purely out of spite, knowing it would utterly destroy its membership because they have no interest in the petition-quest/FRAPs-quest/train-quest/rules-lawyer quest shitshow that the Class C neckbeard guilds specialize in, we see what you're trying to do -- and I'm sure the GMs do as well.

Class C guilds have long chastised Class R as the beneficiary of "welfare loot". When action was taken to finally hold smaller guilds accountable for gaming the system with their convenient alliances, and to hold Class R accountable for killing their raid targets in a more timely fashion -- you know, actually making us work (track/mobilize) for our pixels instead of standing in line to get our Obamaloot handouts -- we still get grief from Class C, which is fairly hypocritical. After all, they should be pleased that we're working within our class to put a little more effort into earning those pixels, amirite?

And of course the brunt of the grief is all directed at Chest/BDA, who Class C still holds responsible for sticking up for the Class R guilds over a year ago and holding the Class C guilds' noses to the table until this Class C/R/FFA system was set up, restricting the Class C intake of pixels. They will never let that go, and would love to see nothing more than Chest and his guild crushed. They know the easiest way to do that is to pressure the GMs into forcing BDA into Class C. Nevermind the fact that Taken/Divinity have been trying to leave the rotation for 8 months, with BDA remaining neutral:

Taken and Divinity have been pushing to leave the rotation for at least the last eight months. Until now, BDA has mediated and remained a neutral party to keep the rotation alive. This turned into a shit-on-BDA fest because they're the only people posting in this thread.

Funny how the court of public opinion tries to pin this all on BDA, mostly because Chest paints a huge target on himself all the time.

None of the recently rejected proposal sounds "more like Class C, so you should be in Class C", unless Class C is offering 60-minutes of uncontested attempts at rotated raid targets within Class C that we don't know about. Last I checked, you weren't. If you are offering to establish a similar agreement with any guild that finds itself in Class C, I'm sure a few Class R guilds might look at that. Yeah, didn't think so. So clearly, this has nothing to do with "treating the smaller guilds the same way we cried that Class C guilds treated us."

This isn't about sticking it to the smaller guilds, or trying to lord over Class R. This is about addressing continued disparity and ending being taken advantage of by those who are gaming the rotation system:

In the first, a guild could determine a black-out period (hours in which they weren't responsible for the mob and the rotation would drop down to whomever was next on rotation and not in blackout). This resulted in the 24-hour guilds (the big 3 if you will), rarely reaching the top of the rotation but having to kill every mob at a shitty hour.

Guilds are occupying slots in the rotation and quite often not killing them themselves. Also due to the current rules, a guild assisting in a kill keeps its rotation slot and does not drop down. Even though they participated in the kill and split the loot.

The reason for this - in their opinion - is too many guilds. Specifically, too many guilds who are occupying slots but can rarely kill mobs on their own with no assistance.

[quido]

BDA getting rotation mobs is like someone earning $100,000 getting food stamps.

[Blaza]

BDA getting rotation mobs is like someone earning $100,000 getting food stamps.

THANKS OBAMA

[Cecily]

Class C guilds have long chastised Class R as the beneficiary of "welfare loot". When action was taken to finally hold smaller guilds accountable for gaming the system with their convenient alliances, and to hold Class R accountable for killing their raid targets in a more timely fashion -- you know, actually making us work (track/mobilize) for our pixels instead of standing in line to get our Obamaloot handouts -- we still get grief from Class C, which is fairly hypocritical. After all, they should be pleased that we're working within our class to put a little more effort into earning those pixels, amirite?

Consider Class C a disapproving father figure whose love you'll never ever get.

[eqnewb]

"First, because every guild would have a shot at every mobs."

ONLY if your willing to wake up to batphone calls at 3:30AM and kill a mob within ten minutes.


Aside from that line which caught my eye.....Wow that was a wall of text. Can we get a summary?

If you consider that all mobs have a chance to spawn at anytime of the day, on avg, then you end up in a situation where only 1/4 mobs spawn at night (say, 12-8?) these hours can vary a tad from guild to guild and person to person, but the point remains the same. You do not have to go after every mob at every time. Hence why its FFA, and why whichever guild that does claim the mob will go on lockout, lowering the total level of competition for the next attempt at said mob.

I do not think anyone ever wants to wake up at 330 AM for a batphone call. I've done it a few times, and its takes away the fun of competing for the mob (plus the possibility that someone else could beat you on a mob at 330 AM). Someone is naturally going to go after said mob, that does not mean your specific guild has too. Choices can be made.

[eqnewb]

Perhaps a summary when I'm in class tomorrow and bored again... I spaced it out a bit though so its easier to read

[Fanguru]

Consider Class C a disapproving father figure whose love you'll never ever get.

More like a creepy uncle who wants to take you to a cabin in the woods to drink and wrestle :rolleyes:

[nerdbobbo]

Not that I have anything real to contribute to this thread, but as somebody who is slowly working their way up in the eq project 1999 blue world, and has no idea how the rotation thing actually works:

/auc WTB TL;DR (for about 90% of this thread)

Thanks,
Kaezyr

[Smokeyj420]

This thread is an absolute gold mine of hilarity.

[Cecily]

More like a creepy uncle who wants to take you to a cabin in the woods to drink and wrestle :rolleyes:

Lil Column A, lil column B.

[Fame]

Hey Cecily why were you banned the other week? I was too, just wondering haha

[Cecily]

I got banned for giving the mods moderation advice. You?

[bktroost]

Eh, perhaps. Was just saying, electing to listen to him on a player-maintained and agreed upon rotation when he and others from the staff refuse to make an official rotation, seems nonsensical. If he doesn't feel strongly enough for the staff to take a position, why should his opinion on player rotations matter?

But regardless of whose idea the tiering system was. It was and is a dumb idea.

Remove Variance and add poopsocking limits.
Rotation gets one change: Guilds can no longer ally, but instead must choose to share a slot in a rotations for mobs which are too difficult for them to handle whenever it spawns.

For reference here is what I'm talking about. Between November and December these were the guilds who allied on mobs which they didn't share a rotation slot on:

Date Mob Rotation Cleared
11/02 Inny Omni Omni/AG
11/03 CT AZ Omni/AZ
12/10 Tal AG AG/Omni
12/12 Trak AG AG/AT
12/17 Inny Euro Omni/Europa
12/31 Trak Euro Omni/Europa

(I'm sure this isn't going to format well)

It's basically only occurring on Trak, Inny, CT and Talendor. These guilds would probably be better suited agreeing to share a rotation slot and be able to cover them whenever they spawn. For all the other mobs there wouldn't really be an impact.


Or we can change that any time you ally or are part of a kill, you are dropped to the bottom of the rotation list. Whatever you want to hash out.

As AG:
If this suggestion were the case we would likely not collapse our rotational slot, we would just let mobs go to class R FFA. Assuming we went a 2 hour or even 1 hour per engagement route, we'd still try solo. If you removed the negative aspect of missing a mob other than rotating to the bottom we would:

1. never sign up for Gore
2. sign up for mobs but likely miss Trak and CT and maybe some others becuase key classes didn't log on at 4am.
3. sign the agreement and bring the rotation back to life.

[Calibretto]

Listen moron. You aren't an officer of your guild, you have 2nd and 3rd hand knowledge of the situation. I sat for hours hammering out these stupid fucking proposals so we could try and repair the gaps in the class R rotation. We never had a tier system planned out but once Sirken caught wind of the disharmony is class R he had a meeting with one of my officers and strongly recommended a tier system. Now believe whatever the fuck you want but I'm pretty much tired of all the rhetoric and hearsay. I'm telling you that a tiered system wasn't in our initial plan, but when the senior server GM strongly recommends something you fucking do it.

You aren't a white knight. You dont get credit for doing shit no one asked you to do, and that only benefits you. No one likes you and I personally feel bad for you. You are a borderline sociopath and flex all the time when no one has ever been impressed. Do you brag to your friends IRL that you think you are "kind of a big deal" on p99? I'd hope not. But I think id be wrong.

[kaev]

You aren't a white knight. You dont get credit for doing shit no one asked you to do, and that only benefits you. No one likes you and I personally feel bad for you. You are a borderline sociopath and flex all the time when no one has ever been impressed. Do you brag to your friends IRL that you think you are "kind of a big deal" on p99? I'd hope not. But I think id be wrong.

wrong forum pal, RnF is that way ---------------------------->

[Swish]

wrong forum pal, RnF is that way ---------------------------->

Think Chest's post was more RNF than that one... or certainly as loaded. Oh well.

[Droog007]

Consider Class C a disapproving father figure whose love you'll never ever get.

Cecily, it will probably warm your heart to know that I fantasize about stabbing you in the navel with a filet knife at least 5 or 6 times a year.

[Ravager]

Cecily, it will probably warm your heart to know that I fantasize about stabbing you in the navel with a filet knife at least 5 or 6 times a year.

That's not nice.

[Fame]

I got banned for giving the mods moderation advice. You?

Selective punishment, I have been bad recently

[captnamazing]

You dont get credit for doing shit no one asked you to do, and that only benefits you.

these actions have also benefited Divinity, Taken, and the RNF community.

No one likes you If no one in BDA likes chest, at least he has corgis

Do you brag to your friends IRL that you think you are "kind of a big deal" on p99? I'd hope not. But I think id be wrong.

Who on p99 has friends IRL??

[kaev]

Think Chest's post was more RNF than that one... or certainly as loaded. Oh well.

Hmm, yeah it was as loaded. That happens when you let yourself get trolled by a shitpost (I'm hoping Daldaen didn't/doesn't actually believe the shit he posted.)

But Calibretto's post was pure personal attack unadulterated with any bits of annoying truth. That's what RnF is for.

[YendorLootmonkey]

these actions have also benefited Divinity, Taken, and the RNF community.

I LOL'd

[YendorLootmonkey]

Consider Class C a disapproving father figure whose love you'll never ever get.

Come on now, even Darth Vader ended up giving his fatherly love to Luke Skywalker in ROTJ. Surely you can find a way!

[Dokt]

When did teaming up on a god/dragon stop dropping both guilds who teamed up to the bottom of the rotation?

If your guild can't solo a mob it goes FFA, and if another guild helped with the kill both guilds drop to bottom of rotation.

This doesn't seem like a controversial idea. Hell, I thought it was the way it worked. Fuck me running.

[Calibretto]

Next time ill hide what I really want to say amidst a paragraph of self important rants and egocentric expectations.

[kaev]

Next time ill hide what I really want to say amidst a paragraph of self important rants and egocentric expectations.

It's better that way. You'll see.

[Calibretto]

Your signature has never been truer. HI-5

[central scrutinizer]

You aren't a white knight. You dont get credit for doing shit no one asked you to do, and that only benefits you. No one likes you and I personally feel bad for you. You are a borderline sociopath and flex all the time when no one has ever been impressed. Do you brag to your friends IRL that you think you are "kind of a big deal" on p99? I'd hope not. But I think id be wrong.

I dunno, I see him as a white knight type more and more, as somebody with no skin in the raid game and no "side" (I already did all the raid stuff the first time and I can no longer sit at a pc for more then an hour so I just mop up quests I never did for my own characters in classic...plus I am a do-more-with-less type and that does not fly here, so it wouldn't even be fun for me, the zerg here is real). Over the past year or so he's basically become the whipping boy for a narrative he didn't even start and I see a lot of stuff foisted at the guy where it seems to me that the objective is just to fuck with him and belittle him, and the logistics of doing so are incidental. Like what you're doing now.

Although if I've ever met him in game I don't remember it, so he could be a giant flaming dbag. But just from the forums, it's kind of admirable how he doesn't really lose his shit over harassment that would make many people flip right out on day 1.

And if he is some kind of lynchpin of the class system like some people claim, well I've noticed a lot more diversity in who I see gathering up to do stuff, so that's a lot of fun he helped create, if the rhetoric regarding his influence is to be believed. While grouping I've seen a lot of chatter from people excited about raiding stuff under many tags that I never saw talk about raiding before, nobody's going to convince me that's a bad thing, as this is just a game. So he's either what people say he is and is ultimately a net benefit to the server or he's just a victim of a targeted campaign of shit talking.

There's definitely a lot of spin in his direction and even if he actually is spinning too, he's still way outgunned yet he doesn't crumple, so I think the guy's alright.

[w1zard]

oh look, thread #123123 on this issue

srsly guys

guys

srsly

are the pixels really worth all this time and energy?

[SyanideGas]

BDA GO BOOM

[beyondinfin]

"Pixels....Pixel-lust never changes..."

Lol at the end game on p99, it's the same BS it's been since I got to raiding level in 2011. Toxic is too soft a term for it. Thank the gods I've always hated raiding. To see how, presumable, grown men act over pixels in a 15 year old game is distressing as well as baffling. I guess when your species leaves the jungle...and you conquer the issue of food, safety and random barbarian attacks....idle time and technology just leads to this. So many nerdy brats, so little pixels. I dont even understand how killing a dragon in 1 min is even a challenge, or fun. But I guess some are beyond that point of logic.

[quido]

Can I sign up for the rotation but get like a court-appointed raid force to kill the mobs for me and just hand over the loot?

[kaev]

Can I sign up for the rotation but get like a court-appointed raid force to kill the mobs for me and just hand over the loot?

no

[Catashe]

Honestly what can you expect from raiders and sadly its what happens when you got a server trapped in classic with no year or two expansions to give people something else to chew on while the slower guilds can use previous content