Non iksar necro - reroll or fail?

[Arterian]

I'm having a serious dillema.

I was a dark elf necro on live and at the time I was oblivious to the advantages of iksars and their regen.

Even when I started here on P99, iksar regen wasn't something I was thinking about. Now I'm lvl 43 on my dark elf necro. At spectres in Feerrott I'm feeling the pinch of balancing my mana and health due to the fast pace of the camp (trying to kill as many as possible per rotation). I find I have to cast vampiric curse every pull and throw in lifetaps with some regularity to not drop below 40% life.

I can't help but think an iksar would be spending less mana on those inefficient spells. My challenge is:

1.) Am I misguided in thinking an iksar would have a very different experience at 43? It looks like the big regen numbers don't even kick in until the 50's.

2.) Is it night and day? If it's a nice convenience but not life changing, playing 43 levels over is really unappealing.

3.) I'm not a big fan of the iksar model. DE are my swagger.

I realize this is a beaten to death topic but because I can't actually experience the iksar regen at 43 for myself, I was hoping for some clarity, particularly from those who may have played both.

Thanks for any insight!

[Duckwalk]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181748

[Arterian]

I'm did see that. Most make iksar seem like the only option. Even more fervently than the ogre shaman bunch.

Some racials seem convenient. I'm getting the vibe that regen in this case transcends convenience and provides a new and substantially more enjoyable play experience.

[Duckwalk]

I have a necro and wouldn't imagine playing with the regen. It's night and day.

Shm is an entirely different debate as regen vs frontal stun immunity is much closer comparison. Both have their merits and at the end of the day there are no mobs an ogre shm can solo that any other race can't solo as well.

On the other hand very might well be mobs/camps an iksar necro can solo that other races can't becaue of the difference in mana efficiency regen makes couple with lich line.

[Gurbuuk]

play whatever race you like.

If you wana play a DE, do it. neriak is a such beautifull city :)

[Duckwalk]

play whatever race you like.

If you wana play a DE, do it. neriak is a such beautifull city :)

Obviously, play what you like. Just be aware that there will be a noticable difference between the two.

Could roll one on blue and one on red and play them both at the same time. Or roll 2 on red, they will both be 30 within a week or two and you can make an informed decision.

[Nycon43]

About the model complaint: To me every race ends up looking the same in caster robes anyways, and as a necro you spend alot of time in skeleton illusion. May as well go the min/max race imo!

[Duckwalk]

Non iksar will be toggling it off and on much more.

[Uteunayr]

Just gotta decide for yourself if regen is more important to you than re-leveling. There are a lot of levels to get re-done, but by the same token, the longest levels are still ahead of you. So, the question is, how much does it matter to you? It is definitely a day night difference. You don't even notice Lich damage until you're 34+. Anyone who has tried both knows how much of a day/night difference it is. In this case, this is a racial that benefits the central mechanic of Necromancer. There's still room to argue on Shaman, between Frontal Stun vs Regen (it is not my point here to take a stand), but necromancers are all about the regeneration.

If you like being your classic race, playing a Dark Elf... Stick with it. Enjoy it. But if you do care for regeneration, if you look at it and say "Huh, that's cool... I really want to have that.", I say reroll. The big thing is to make sure you're not sticking with Dark Elf because you want to justify it in some other way. Don't give into sunk costs, it so often leads people awry.

When I was a Dark Elf, I realized at 49 just how big a deal regeneration really was, and how much I was missing it. So I decided I would try to justify sticking as a Dark Elf. I tried to convince myself I wasn't missing much... And so I pushed through to 60. It was so much worse. I wish I had switched before doing the 50s and saved myself months of leveling.

You already have a necromancer at higher levels, so you can camp your Iksar jboots, get a CoS, and most of the stuff that makes it difficult at the start. You've been to a number of camps, go to different ones this time around.

So, that's my take on it. If you like dark elf, and don't care for regen, don't reroll. If you do see the appeal of regeneration, don't give into sunk costs, reroll, and utilize your current necromancer to leverage yourself some gear.

[Arterian]

Thanks for the info Sesserdrix. Always super informative. I'm rolling again - in the grand scheme 43 is not that far, a few weeks of consistent play and I'll reap the benefits of regen forever.

I know iksar has some different itemization. Tome of Miragul is out and so are GEBs. Have you ever put together a rough iksar gearing list?

[Uteunayr]

I did. You can find it here: http://wiki.project1999.com/Sesserdrix%27s_All_in_One_Necromancer_Strategy_Gui de#Picking_The_Right_Gear

But that includes a wide range of items, by and large including items that I have used, and have felt would be useful. So some items on that list will be more expensive than others. So, the following is a list of just the cheap, introductory items:

Neck: Glowing Bone Collar, Chipped Bone Collar, Beartooth Necklace
Head: Giant Sized Monocle, Savant's Cap, Runed Circlet, Runed Cowl, and if you have friends: Dark Circlet.
Ears1: Golden Sapphire Earring
Ears2: Golden Sapphire Earring
Face: Turquoise Eyepatch/Sheer Bone Mask
Chest: Tattered Tomb Shroud/Advisor Robe
Arms: Gatorscale Sleeves
Back: Festering Cloak/Hooded Black Cloak
Waist: Lizardscale Belt, Braided Cinch Cord, Giants Reminder String
Shoulders: Embroidered Black Cape
Wrists1: Bracelet of Woven Grass, Golden Jaded Bracelet
Wrists2: Bracelet of Woven Grass, Golden Jaded Bracelet
Legs: Silversilk Leggings, Gatorscale Leggings
Hands: ShadowBound Gloves, Shiny Silk Gloves, Worm-Eaten Gloves,
Fingers1: Platinum Fire Wedding Ring
Fingers2: Platinum Fire Wedding Ring
Feet: ShadowBound Boots
Primary: Jeweled Skull, Stein of Moggok, Gnoll Hide Tome,
Secondary: Jeweled Skull, Stein of Moggok, Rokyl's Channelling Crystal
Ranged: Dagger of Marnek

[iruinedyourday]

hey Sess, how would a DE with a mana robe fair compared to a Iksar efficiency wise?

[ghost182]

hey Sess, how would a DE with a mana robe fair compared to a Iksar efficiency wise?

VS an iksar with a mana robe? ;)

[Uteunayr]

hey Sess, how would a DE with a mana robe fair compared to a Iksar efficiency wise?

This is a fun question. Let me consume the next couple hours of my life...

It would be even worse really. The benefit of an item like Manastone or Manna Robe is the speed, not the efficiency. With how lich is on this server (broken), you get about a 1:1 hp loss to mana gain ratio. So demi lich is -32 hp for +32 mana. Manna Conversion (the clickie of the Manna Robe) and ManaConvert (Manastone) are -60 hp for +20 mana.

So from the get go, you're automatically losing more HP than you gain in mana by a large margin, so you're less efficient with HP over mana. This will make you need to use more lifetaps, and burn more mana. A Touch of Night is 720 HP for 405 mana. That means at -60 hp a click of Manna Robe for 20 mana, you will get 12 clicks of the Robe for 1 Touch of Night. 12 clicks X 60 hp a tick = 720 health. So 12 clicks is 20 mana x 12 = 240 mana. So you gain 240 mana using the Manna Robe when you burn 405 to replenish that health. This is a 165 net mana loss. And that's before including the fact that you're also burning lich ticks at the same time, nor your regeneration. In other words, you can't do what a Cleric can, spam clicking a mana stone and CH to gain efficiency.

Manna Robe is ultimately a loss in efficiency, but you gain more of a burst of speed. Lets look deeper at the subject!

If you are using it for a minute, 10 ticks, you can assume you'd get +21 mana from meditate (1 natural tick, 20 mana), and +31 from Demi Lich so +52 mana a tick, or +520 mana in a tick. You lose 32 hp from Demi Lich naturally, but Iksar lose 14, and Non-Iksar lose 25. So for the +520 mana, a Non-Iksar gets -250 Health, and an Iksar gets -140 Health.

Or quicker, 520 mana divided by 250 health is 2.08 Mana per HP for Non-Iksar, or 520/140 for 3.71 Mana per HP for Iksar. Think of Mana per HP like Miles per Gallon on your car.

Now what happens if we add one use of Manna Robe between each tick? Lets continue to assume 10 ticks, and you click it once (3 second cast) between each meditate tick, so you still gain full HP and mana from each meditate tick, using it like a shaman would canni dance. That's 10 ticks of -60 hp and +20 mana, or -600 hp and +200 mana. This means the new breakdown is +720 Mana (520 + 200) for -850 (-600 + -250) for Non-Iksar, and +720 Mana for -740 (-600 + -140) for Iksar.

In this break down, you have 720/850 for Non-Iksar which is .85 (rounded) Mana per HP, or 720/740 for .97 HP per Mana.

So you're getting substantially less mana per health. A Non-Iksar is losing 59.13% of their efficiency by using a Manna Robe, and an Iksar is losing 73.85% of their efficiency by using the Manna Robe. A cautionary note, however, is that this doesn't mean a Non-Iksar is more capable of absorbing the losses, it means that the loss in efficiency caused by Manna Robe is so great, it significantly weakens the advantage Iksar has. That should make intuitive sense, as the advantage of regeneration is not burst effect, but rather the steady long term benefit. Manna robe is, by its very nature, a burst effect. After the minute of using the Manna Robe, an Iksar will still have a faster "cool down" phase in which they regain their quickly burned Mana, and will be able to do it again quicker. But for that one minute of non-stop Manna Robe clicking, regeneration is devalued and dragged down closer to Non-Iksar levels because of how much of a health sink the Mana Conversion is. Note, the Iksar still has an advantage, but the advantage isn't as extreme as it is in a normal pure demi lich situation.

Now note, that doesn't mean the robe is bad. After all, in the end, in 1 minute, you're gaining 200 more mana in each case. Going from 520 to 720 is a 38.5% increase in the overall mana you gain in a given minute, but at the cost of 529% more HP lost per minute for the Iksar, and 340% more HP lost per minute for a Non-Iksar.

There may be a foreseeable situation in which 200 more mana in a minute will make or break a raid situation. Having mana for just one more twitch... but personally, I'd rather just be prepared with an Infusion and gain 1000 mana instantly, lol. But maybe there is a situation in which you need 1200 mana quickly.

But in general, it is a pretty bad item to use across the board. With the free health from a VP stick, however, it may be more usable...

So for the lulz, lets check how the VP stick works in this.

Lets start with the original values again, and continue with the 10 tick scenario.

Per Tick: +52 mana, Non-Iksar: -25 Health, Iksar: -14 Health.

The VP stick heals for 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99, 110, 120, and then ends. So 10 ticks, total of 71.4 hp per tick. It takes 13.5 seconds to cast again. So it takes just over 2 ticks. So for 2 ticks, we will be standing, and we will be unable to use the Manna Robe. So lets go through this tick by tick to get the best picture:

Non-Iksar:

2-5s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
6s: Tick 1: +52 Mana, -25 health, +22 Health.
8-11s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
12s: Tick 2: +52 Mana, -25 health, +33 Health.
14-17s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
18s: Tick 3: +52 Mana, -25 health, +44 Health.
20-23s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
24s: Tick 4: +52 Mana, -25 health, +55 Health.
26-29s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
30s: Tick 5: +52 Mana, -25 health, +66 Health.
32-35s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
36s: Tick 6: +52 Mana, -25 health, +77 Health.
38-41s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
42s: Tick 7: +52 Mana, -25 health, +88 Health.
44-47s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
47.5s: Re-cast VP Staff so it will resolve at Second 61. Until Second 61, you are standing. Lower regeneration, lower mana, no Mana Robe casts

48s: Tick 8: +32 Mana, -28 health, +99 Health.

54s: Tick 9: +32 Mana, -28 health, +110 Health.

60s: Tick 10: +32 Mana, -28 health, +120 Health.

Following this 10th tick, a new Soul Well will land at 61s, a new Manna Robe click at 62-65s, and a 11th Tick at 66s (all the above +60s).

So what is the total? Lets see... 620

Mana: 7 ticks of full 52 = 364. 3 ticks of standing non-meditate mana of 96. Total natural + demi lich is 460 mana. You also have 8 casts of Manna Robe, for 20 per cast or 160 mana. Ultimately, 620 Mana generated.

Now what about health? That's the real question here, right?

Health: 7 ticks of full -25 = 175 health lost. 3 ticks of -28 is 84 more health lost. Or 259 health lost. There were 8 casts of Manna Robe, for a total of 480 health lost. So a total of 739 health lost after counting regeneration, and standing up. Now the VP stick netted you the gain of 71.4hp a tick, or 714hp gained.

So with the VP stick and Manna Robe, there is a net of 25 health lost for the gain of 620 mana every 1 minute. Or, 24.8 Mana per Health.

Now lets remember something from earlier:

>>520 mana divided by 250 health is 2.08 Mana per HP for Non-Iksar

So for the Non-Iksar, the VP Stick + Manna Robe + assuming absolutely computer timed precision (probably beyond human capability to be honest) + always having a mob to use the Shissar Staff on that always lands + never taking damage, you get 1192% more Mana per HP.

But now how about Iksar?

Instead of going through the entire process, lets realize that the only difference here is the following:

For 7 of 10 ticks, instead of -25 health per tick, it was -14. For The last 3 ticks, instead of -28 Health, it was -20 health per tick. So, that's 7(25-14) + 3(28-20) = 7(11)+3(8) = 77 + 24 = 101 more health retained through the entire process. At the end, we of Non-Iksar, we determined there was 739 health lost. If we retain 101 more of that, that means you have 638 health lost prior to VP stick. When we count the VP stick, we're looking at 76 Health GAINED.

So with the VP stick and Manna Robe, there is a net of 76 Health gained per 1 minute for the gain of 620 mana (or 7.6 health per tick). You don't even have a Mana per Health value any longer, as you're not losing anything anymore. No longer are you using miles per gallon, as your car in this example is creating gas as you drive. Kind of hard to beat that deal.

It is at this point that regeneration loses its value, because now you're more likely to cap 100% health, and not lose a thing. In other words, assuming you take no other damage, to the core class mechanics of a necromancer, regeneration no longer has value. But anyone who has played will know you can always find ways of losing health. Think of all the assumptions we had to make: Having a VP Stick, having a Manna Robe, always having a target to lifetap stick target, never getting resisted (which would soak up another 13.5 seconds), and so on. If any of these assumptions fail (as they will), the effective Mana per Health will drop.

Iksar can take quite a beating to their play style and still be gaining health per tick, and since they gain HP rather than lose it, they don't need to stop the process described here to bounce back after getting punched, having resists, etc. In other words, to keep with the driving comparison, every time you go up a hill, down a hill, change speeds/RPMs, etc. your car's fuel efficiency rises and falls. If your car is producing gasoline as you drive, the more it produces, then the more inefficient you can be due to driving up mountains, quickly accelerating (faster or slower), etc. without dropping down to where your car is losing gasoline as you drive. Sure, you may not be able to store the produced gasoline (your gas tank being fuel, your health being at 100%), but it will quickly replace any inefficiencies (you quickly accelerate, your gas tank drops to 98% capacity, once you balance out, it goes back up to 100%), rather than just drop from that point and need to live with the losses of that momentary inefficiency. Hopefully this car example, however absurd (car creating gasoline), is sort of helping convey the idea.

Ultimately, these are unrealistic assumptions for play style. Think of the amount of repetitive timing that would go into perfectly lining up everything as I described. Think of every time you think you sit in time for the tick, but it says no. Think of every time you need to move and miss a tick. All of this hurts this pure model. But every slip up you make will ultimately hurt your mana per health, and Iksar have a lot of health they gain to lose before they get back into the territory of health per loss. So in this way, regeneration isn't without value, regeneration helps pick up the slack of RNG and human error. On the other hand, Non-Iksar would be losing naturally, so human error and RNG would drive the mana per health down even further, and every mistake would hurt (whereas an Iksar is insulated). Additionally, an Iksar could "spend" that health they gain by delaying a few ticks before re-casting their Shissar Staff. This would allow for more ticks of sitting mana and uses of Manna Robe to gain more mana overall, but this would be even more advanced and tricky. However, most likely this extra health would be lost through getting punched, needing to run around, not having a stick target, etc.

This spending of HP gain is nothing unique to this situation. Every necromancer is spending HP a tick for Mana. On the base line, we lose health to gain mana. But things like the VP stick, Manna Robe, standing too much, missing meditate ticks, etc. All of these are the way a necromancer "spends" their health to achieve their goals. The more HP you have to spend, the more inefficient your play style can be, the more you can use something like Manna Robe. Spending HP is what necromancers do. In this situation above, an Iksar has 76 HP gained per 1 minute while gaining 620 mana. This means they can spend that 76 HP on things like not using the staff again immediately and eating another tick of non-stick healing. They can run around and afford to lose up to 76 HP before they start losing anything. That's why being an Iksar is great, even when you have a VP stick. You have more HP to spend doing whatever the fuck you want rather than staying focused on proper mana generation.

But when we think ahead to Velious, we will gain +17 HP per tick for all Necromancers. At this point, every necromancer would be in the positive range of gaining HP per Mana using this mana generation system. But at this point, everyone could "spend" this extra health by delaying their use of the VP stick to get more efficient mana return rather than standing. Iksar will just have more of it. The more these assumptions are relaxed, the more you'll lose, and the more the Iksar regeneration will provide benefit, insulating you against the consequences of relaxing those assumptions.

[iruinedyourday]

This is a fun question. Let me consume the next couple hours of my life...

It would be even worse really. The benefit of an item like Manastone or Manna Robe is the speed, not the efficiency. With how lich is on this server (broken), you get about a 1:1 hp loss to mana gain ratio. So demi lich is -32 hp for +32 mana. Manna Conversion (the clickie of the Manna Robe) and ManaConvert (Manastone) are -60 hp for +20 mana.

So from the get go, you're automatically losing more HP than you gain in mana by a large margin, so you're less efficient with HP over mana. This will make you need to use more lifetaps, and burn more mana. A Touch of Night is 720 HP for 405 mana. That means at -60 hp a click of Manna Robe for 20 mana, you will get 12 clicks of the Robe for 1 Touch of Night. 12 clicks X 60 hp a tick = 720 health. So 12 clicks is 20 mana x 12 = 240 mana. So you gain 240 mana using the Manna Robe when you burn 405 to replenish that health. This is a 165 net mana loss. And that's before including the fact that you're also burning lich ticks at the same time, nor your regeneration. In other words, you can't do what a Cleric can, spam clicking a mana stone and CH to gain efficiency.

Manna Robe is ultimately a loss in efficiency, but you gain more of a burst of speed. Lets look deeper at the subject!

If you are using it for a minute, 10 ticks, you can assume you'd get +21 mana from meditate (1 natural tick, 20 mana), and +31 from Demi Lich so +52 mana a tick, or +520 mana in a tick. You lose 32 hp from Demi Lich naturally, but Iksar lose 14, and Non-Iksar lose 25. So for the +520 mana, a Non-Iksar gets -250 Health, and an Iksar gets -140 Health.

Or quicker, 520 mana divided by 250 health is 2.08 Mana per HP for Non-Iksar, or 520/140 for 3.71 Mana per HP for Iksar. Think of Mana per HP like Miles per Gallon on your car.

Now what happens if we add one use of Manna Robe between each tick? Lets continue to assume 10 ticks, and you click it once (3 second cast) between each meditate tick, so you still gain full HP and mana from each meditate tick, using it like a shaman would canni dance. That's 10 ticks of -60 hp and +20 mana, or -600 hp and +200 mana. This means the new breakdown is +720 Mana (520 + 200) for -850 (-600 + -250) for Non-Iksar, and +720 Mana for -740 (-600 + -140) for Iksar.

In this break down, you have 720/850 for Non-Iksar which is .85 (rounded) Mana per HP, or 720/740 for .97 HP per Mana.

So you're getting substantially less mana per health. A Non-Iksar is losing 59.13% of their efficiency by using a Manna Robe, and an Iksar is losing 73.85% of their efficiency by using the Manna Robe. A cautionary note, however, is that this doesn't mean a Non-Iksar is more capable of absorbing the losses, it means that the loss in efficiency caused by Manna Robe is so great, it significantly weakens the advantage Iksar has. That should make intuitive sense, as the advantage of regeneration is not burst effect, but rather the steady long term benefit. Manna robe is, by its very nature, a burst effect. After the minute of using the Manna Robe, an Iksar will still have a faster "cool down" phase in which they regain their quickly burned Mana, and will be able to do it again quicker. But for that one minute of non-stop Manna Robe clicking, regeneration is devalued and dragged down closer to Non-Iksar levels because of how much of a health sink the Mana Conversion is. Note, the Iksar still has an advantage, but the advantage isn't as extreme as it is in a normal pure demi lich situation.

Now note, that doesn't mean the robe is bad. After all, in the end, in 1 minute, you're gaining 200 more mana in each case. Going from 520 to 720 is a 38.5% increase in the overall mana you gain in a given minute, but at the cost of 529% more HP lost per minute for the Iksar, and 340% more HP lost per minute for a Non-Iksar.

There may be a foreseeable situation in which 200 more mana in a minute will make or break a raid situation. Having mana for just one more twitch... but personally, I'd rather just be prepared with an Infusion and gain 1000 mana instantly, lol. But maybe there is a situation in which you need 1200 mana quickly.

But in general, it is a pretty bad item to use across the board. With the free health from a VP stick, however, it may be more usable...

So for the lulz, lets check how the VP stick works in this.

Lets start with the original values again, and continue with the 10 tick scenario.

Per Tick: +52 mana, Non-Iksar: -25 Health, Iksar: -14 Health.

The VP stick heals for 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99, 110, 120, and then ends. So 10 ticks, total of 71.4 hp per tick. It takes 13.5 seconds to cast again. So it takes just over 2 ticks. So for 2 ticks, we will be standing, and we will be unable to use the Manna Robe. So lets go through this tick by tick to get the best picture:

Non-Iksar:

2-5s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
6s: Tick 1: +52 Mana, -25 health, +22 Health.
8-11s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
12s: Tick 2: +52 Mana, -25 health, +33 Health.
14-17s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
18s: Tick 3: +52 Mana, -25 health, +44 Health.
20-23s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
24s: Tick 4: +52 Mana, -25 health, +55 Health.
26-29s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
30s: Tick 5: +52 Mana, -25 health, +66 Health.
32-35s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
36s: Tick 6: +52 Mana, -25 health, +77 Health.
38-41s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
42s: Tick 7: +52 Mana, -25 health, +88 Health.
44-47s: Manna Robe: +20 Mana, -60 Health
47.5s: Re-cast VP Staff so it will resolve at Second 61. Until Second 61, you are standing. Lower regeneration, lower mana, no Mana Robe casts

48s: Tick 8: +32 Mana, -28 health, +99 Health.

54s: Tick 9: +32 Mana, -28 health, +110 Health.

60s: Tick 10: +32 Mana, -28 health, +120 Health.

Following this 10th tick, a new Soul Well will land at 61s, a new Manna Robe click at 62-65s, and a 11th Tick at 66s (all the above +60s).

So what is the total? Lets see... 620

Mana: 7 ticks of full 52 = 364. 3 ticks of standing non-meditate mana of 96. Total natural + demi lich is 460 mana. You also have 8 casts of Manna Robe, for 20 per cast or 160 mana. Ultimately, 620 Mana generated.

Now what about health? That's the real question here, right?

Health: 7 ticks of full -25 = 175 health lost. 3 ticks of -28 is 84 more health lost. Or 259 health lost. There were 8 casts of Manna Robe, for a total of 480 health lost. So a total of 739 health lost after counting regeneration, and standing up. Now the VP stick netted you the gain of 71.4hp a tick, or 714hp gained.

So with the VP stick and Manna Robe, there is a net of 25 health lost for the gain of 620 mana every 1 minute. Or, 24.8 Mana per Health.

Now lets remember something from earlier:

>>520 mana divided by 250 health is 2.08 Mana per HP for Non-Iksar

So for the Non-Iksar, the VP Stick + Manna Robe + assuming absolutely computer timed precision (probably beyond human capability to be honest) + always having a mob to use the Shissar Staff on that always lands + never taking damage, you get 1192% more Mana per HP.

But now how about Iksar?

Instead of going through the entire process, lets realize that the only difference here is the following:

For 7 of 10 ticks, instead of -25 health per tick, it was -14. For The last 3 ticks, instead of -28 Health, it was -20 health per tick. So, that's 7(25-14) + 3(28-20) = 7(11)+3(8) = 77 + 24 = 101 more health retained through the entire process. At the end, we of Non-Iksar, we determined there was 739 health lost. If we retain 101 more of that, that means you have 638 health lost prior to VP stick. When we count the VP stick, we're looking at 76 Health GAINED.

So with the VP stick and Manna Robe, there is a net of 76 Health gained per 1 minute for the gain of 620 mana (or 7.6 health per tick). You don't even have a Mana per Health value any longer, as you're not losing anything anymore. No longer are you using miles per gallon, as your car in this example is creating gas as you drive. Kind of hard to beat that deal.

It is at this point that regeneration loses its value, because now you're more likely to cap 100% health, and not lose a thing. In other words, assuming you take no other damage, to the core class mechanics of a necromancer, regeneration no longer has value. But anyone who has played will know you can always find ways of losing health. Think of all the assumptions we had to make: Having a VP Stick, having a Manna Robe, always having a target to lifetap stick target, never getting resisted (which would soak up another 13.5 seconds), and so on. If any of these assumptions fail (as they will), the effective Mana per Health will drop.

Iksar can take quite a beating to their play style and still be gaining health per tick, and since they gain HP rather than lose it, they don't need to stop the process described here to bounce back after getting punched, having resists, etc. In other words, to keep with the driving comparison, every time you go up a hill, down a hill, change speeds/RPMs, etc. your car's fuel efficiency rises and falls. If your car is producing gasoline as you drive, the more it produces, then the more inefficient you can be due to driving up mountains, quickly accelerating (faster or slower), etc. without dropping down to where your car is losing gasoline as you drive. Sure, you may not be able to store the produced gasoline (your gas tank being fuel, your health being at 100%), but it will quickly replace any inefficiencies (you quickly accelerate, your gas tank drops to 98% capacity, once you balance out, it goes back up to 100%), rather than just drop from that point and need to live with the losses of that momentary inefficiency. Hopefully this car example, however absurd (car creating gasoline), is sort of helping convey the idea.

Ultimately, these are unrealistic assumptions for play style. Think of the amount of repetitive timing that would go into perfectly lining up everything as I described. Think of every time you think you sit in time for the tick, but it says no. Think of every time you need to move and miss a tick. All of this hurts this pure model. But every slip up you make will ultimately hurt your mana per health, and Iksar have a lot of health they gain to lose before they get back into the territory of health per loss. So in this way, regeneration isn't without value, regeneration helps pick up the slack of RNG and human error. On the other hand, Non-Iksar would be losing naturally, so human error and RNG would drive the mana per health down even further, and every mistake would hurt (whereas an Iksar is insulated). Additionally, an Iksar could "spend" that health they gain by delaying a few ticks before re-casting their Shissar Staff. This would allow for more ticks of sitting mana and uses of Manna Robe to gain more mana overall, but this would be even more advanced and tricky. However, most likely this extra health would be lost through getting punched, needing to run around, not having a stick target, etc.

This spending of HP gain is nothing unique to this situation. Every necromancer is spending HP a tick for Mana. On the base line, we lose health to gain mana. But things like the VP stick, Manna Robe, standing too much, missing meditate ticks, etc. All of these are the way a necromancer "spends" their health to achieve their goals. The more HP you have to spend, the more inefficient your play style can be, the more you can use something like Manna Robe. Spending HP is what necromancers do. In this situation above, an Iksar has 76 HP gained per 1 minute while gaining 620 mana. This means they can spend that 76 HP on things like not using the staff again immediately and eating another tick of non-stick healing. They can run around and afford to lose up to 76 HP before they start losing anything. That's why being an Iksar is great, even when you have a VP stick. You have more HP to spend doing whatever the fuck you want rather than staying focused on proper mana generation.

But when we think ahead to Velious, we will gain +17 HP per tick for all Necromancers. At this point, every necromancer would be in the positive range of gaining HP per Mana using this mana generation system. But at this point, everyone could "spend" this extra health by delaying their use of the VP stick to get more efficient mana return rather than standing. Iksar will just have more of it. The more these assumptions are relaxed, the more you'll lose, and the more the Iksar regeneration will provide benefit, insulating you against the consequences of relaxing those assumptions.

http://i.imgur.com/zGHNzyG.jpg

you are like the Bradly Cooper in that movie Limitless

Thank you so much!

[Arterian]

You mention this 17 health achievable in Velious. How attainable will this be for the average necro? Or is this just elite raiding me a?

[arsenalpow]

You mention this 17 health achievable in Velious. How attainable will this be for the average necro? Or is this just elite raiding me a?

I'm assuming he's referring to zlandicar's heart.

[Arterian]

I'm sure that is part of it. The other piece was coldain ring? I know the heart is going to be hard to attain item and surely sell for many hundreds of thousands the plat. What about the ring quest?

[arsenalpow]

I'm sure that is part of it. The other piece was coldain ring? I know the heart is going to be hard to attain item and Shirley sulfur many hundreds of thousands the plat. What about the ring quest?

I don't remember the ring quests being too insufferable and people always enjoyed doing the ring war encounter.

[Daldaen]

I don't remember the ring quests being too insufferable and people always enjoyed doing the ring war encounter.

10th Ring will have some annoyances. Most all mobs are on 20min Respawns that matter, except the final war guy I think is a day or two.

There are some absurdly rare drops for parts of the ring war however. The HQ Tundra Kodiak pelts for the first ring being amongst the worst of those - assuming the Iceball patch went in! -

I expect to see several of the camps pretty camped for awhile though. Plus there are some people already setting up to farm MQs for sale. The guys buying up seahorse scales and mt death salt for example. It will be interesting how neckbeardy people get with it.

[Arterian]

Any bets on going rate for a Zlandicar heart?

[Uteunayr]

I am expecting them to be insane at the start price wise, probably 300-400k if not more, because of how many necromancers will want one and people will pay for the convenience of having it faster... But I believe they will stabilize over time at around 50k-100k to be honest... That is, if normal market forces hold up. If the mob is able to be held exclusively by a guild depending, then prices can be artificially inflated. Ultimately they shouldn't be too pricy as they are simply too common, and Zlandicar isn't that high up a raid target. That is assuming how it was in beta holds up.

The 17 HP is as follows:

+2 from Aura of Battle. Necromancers will get this from the Spirit Wracked Cord Quest (http://wiki.project1999.com/Spirit_Wracked_Cord_Quest) which will require us to have good reputation with Chardok. We will have to kill Juggs and Trak, Drusella Sathir, and have the ring. But this item is really worth it.

+5 from Zlandicar's Heart. By and large you'll only be swapping in VP stick, epic, fear stick, VS stick, etc. only on a need to basis, and Zlandicar's Heart will remain for the rest.

+10 from the Coldain Ring. Relatively accessible. We'll have to see.

[Arterian]

Great overview. do you feel this will diminish the value of iksar? If the same question was posed in Velious would your response be so fervently pro iksar or do the other races catch up?

[Duckwalk]

No, other races simply have nothing to offer at the top end.

Potential stats gaps will disappear with Velious gear and faction can be corrected.

Basically the only thing other races will offer will be tinkering (gnome), hide (dark elf) and possibly some race restricted gear (which should be outclassed by Velious anyways).

Regen > All

[Uteunayr]

I would still be adamantly pro-Iksar. This is what I tried to get at toward the end of my mega post. What necromancers do, above anything else, is they trade HP for things. You use Lich to give up some HP to gain mana. Now, you could do this efficiently by sitting, but maybe you need to run? When you stand, you lose regen, so you lose more health per mana tick. You give up HP to gain mobility. You mentally space out and realize you are not sitting, so you lose HP. You give up HP because you screwed up. You get punched, and you give up HP because you didn't root your mob far enough away from you. You decide to cast a spell that takes longer than 5 seconds to cast, so you're going to lose a med and sitting hp tick. You give up HP to use a more powerful spell. And yes, you give up HP to choose another race.

Pretty much anytime you deviate from the smooth and clean situation of 100% sit time with Demi Lich, you're going to be losing some form of efficiency. Your HP gain will be lost. Anyone who has played this game will know just how common this is. You ultimately are going to have to handle making some of these trade offs that you otherwise wouldn't want to do.

The more padding you have, the better off you are. The more HP you gain, the more situations you can adapt to without needing to click off Demi Lich to keep the machine going. Regeneration is devalued, but the value is still rather strong. No matter what, the Non-Iksar races will never have the extra +11/+9/+8. Nothing changes that.

Think of the situation I listed with using Manna Robe + VP Stick to gain insane amounts of efficiency as an Iksar. A Non-Iksar still loses HP (albeit slowly). This means if they get punched, or hit with an AE, or some other really shitty situation arises, they need to stop the machine to let their health come back. The Iksar had around +70 hp a minute, which is pretty damn good to be able to sit on.

Lets go more accessible, and say Demi-Lich. Iksar have +18 and +17 with those 3 items. +35 total. +24 for Non-Iksar. So with Demi Lich, you have +3 for an Iksar while sitting, and -8 for a Non-Iksar while sitting. But then standing, it drops to -3/-11. Lets say your charm breaks at a shitty time, as you're rooting your target. You root the first, and the second punches you for 200 between all swings before you ST + Recharm. You want to keep your mana machine going, and stay in Demi Lich. Now who do you want to be? The guy getting -3 or -11 a tick? I'd rather be the -3 guy. I'd prefer to use more mana efficient finishers rather than Deflux by not needing the HP of Deflux.

So, in the end, I believe regeneration always has value simply because the game isn't as linear as always sitting and getting 100% of your regen and mana. There are situations to adapt to, and the more regen you have, the more easily you can adapt without becoming inefficient.

Basically the only thing other races will offer will be tinkering (gnome), hide (dark elf) and possibly some race restricted gear (which should be outclassed by Velious anyways).

It is worth noting that gnomes not only have Tinker (although tinker is devalued by the presence of Holgresh Elder Beads), but they get to look through walls. Dark Elf hide, however, was nerfed to being just invis. Given we have a Circlet of Shadow, this benefit is completely useless. Dark Elf Hide used to be Invis + Ivu, which was amazing while root rotting... But that was nerfed before I even made Sesserdrix. Gnome, in my eyes, has the top of the non-iksar necromancer title.

[toolshed]

This thread shows again why Uteunayr is the best poster on this forum. Thanks for all the great info, as always

[Duckwalk]

Disregard, forgot we were discussing Necro's not enchanters.

[ctre]

Ute forgot to add 1 more important thing.

The Iksar has a higher AC.

For taking a hit form a mob.
This does factor in, if you have not so good equipment.