What's the beef with boxing?

[kildone]

*Edit Thank you for the thoughtful posts and insightful information. I will add these to the post*

I have seen comments in other threads but wanted to hear opinions in a thread specific to the issue. I honestly don't get it and think the arguments against do not hold water.

It very likely I am just ignorant on the issue. These opinions against are likely based on experience. Did P99 ever try it?

On live EQ I knew a number of folks who two boxed and one guy who would play up to 5. These guys always preferred grouping to boxing. Always glad to drop down to one character to allow folks into a group.

On blue 99 when the server was new I could understand a ban, but when I was leveling 1-35 two years ago the server was so top heavy that I had a real hard time finding anyone to group with. So much that I stopped playing my cleric to play a Druid so I could solo effectively. Part of this is likely due to mostly being able to play during non peak times?

I would suck at boxing myself but at least I could play any character like maybe a warrior if I had a cleric on the side to buff and heal. I don't want to get banned though so...

On red99, 6 months ago and now recently on a new character I can rarely find a group even in CB or Unrest?

Thoughts on boxing MMOs in general? Advice on finding groups on P99 servers < lvl 40?

******* Edit
There are reasons that boxing was rare that I did not think of (certainly discouraged me from trying boxing, I remembered now that it was mentioned:
Internet connection issues and hardware constraints
On live you had to pay for your accounts, which inherently limited boxing. Accounts are free on an Emu server

Bad things that can happen if boxing is allowed:Locking down camps (I guess I can imagine some people would be able to lock down multiple camps and refuse to give any up)
Using tools to enable small groups of people to lock down raid targets

Good things that can happen if boxing is allowed:
Regardless of what some people say, it can often be hard to find groups on an top heavy server, boxing enables one to play a class they like and still be able to do content and travel

Why trying to enforce boxing can be difficult / impossible
Quote from apio - the argument for P99, since there is limited content for way too many people, but there are a lot of people boxing on P99, to hold down separate camps, which makes it hard to identify, so the limitations here really only serve to keep the "good people" in check !
It is easy to have multiple IP's if people in the house have mobile phones

Thanks to all who have posted, I love a good discussion.

[loramin]

If a server allows boxing then it basically forces everyone on that server to box. I boxed on live, and I wouldn't mind boxing occasionally here, but I would never want to feel like I have to box to "keep up with the Jones" (which is what would happen if P99 allowed boxing).

[Laugher]

I like the 1 box limit here because most other emu servers I've played almost always involved at least 2 boxing to get around; having played a lot of Irreverent server before here I boxed almost always for a few years. Its kind of nice to be on a server where you can play the class you actually like playing without having to box x amount of support classes to level or gear the toon you actually like/would want to focus on.

[kildone]

Can you explain just a bit more why everyone would feel the need to box? I never did on live even when I knew some people who did.

[kildone]

I like the 1 box limit here because most other emu servers I've played almost always involved at least 2 boxing to get around; having played a lot of Irreverent server before here I boxed almost always for a few years. Its kind of nice to be on a server where you can play the class you actually like playing without having to box x amount of support classes to level or gear the toon you actually like.

Again I am missing something. I only feel the need to box when I cant get a group. If I could get that support from other members, why would I need to box?

[Swish]

You can box on any other emulated non-P99 server as far as I know.

Remember that the idea of playing online is to interact with other people, right? To be part of a community?

Ever go into "The Hidden Forest" server? Please do, because you'll find people 10-12 boxing and if you say hello in a public channel you'll be met with silence... everyone is in their own little world which just happens to be online. It's as good as Skyrim there in terms of interacting with other "real" people.

If you enjoy having to alt tab every few seconds to cast a spell in other windows, reposition someone, hit backstab...whatever... there's places to enjoy it. Most of us here though don't see how that adds to the game.

LFG? Make a group yourself. Interact with others.
Need a port? /who all dial
Need an item? Sit in EC and watch the fat cats spamming.

Remember mercs on the live servers? Yeaaaahhh... that worked well didn't it? ;p

[Norathorr]

No boxing is one of the things that makes this server great. I remember during this part of the timeline on live hardly any people boxed due to internet connection issues and hardware constraints. I certainly enjoyed EQ before boxing was a generally done thing. I know lots are happy to drop boxes, but others prefer to box and hold down content. Here on P1999 you are forced to make friends which in a MMO setting is the best thing possible for a long lasting community.

[Nuggie]

I boxed on live. At some point I stopped wanting to group and just wanted to see what the highest/hardest mob/encounter was that I could kill while boxing with myself.

It was very lonely. I'm glad people are forced to group here.

[loramin]

Can you explain just a bit more why everyone would feel the need to box? I never did on live even when I knew some people who did.

On live you had to pay for your accounts, which inherently limited boxing. Sure a few people did it, but it wasn't like everyone was doing it.

Here though accounts are free, which means the only limit to boxing would be the server's (if any). It's easy to say "oh that won't affect me" ... until you can't get groups because everyone is 6-boxing (or, if there's a limit, 2- or 3-boxing in 3/2 real person groups). Or until you try to go do a non-solo camp with some friends and find that they've all become locked down like the fungi camp, because it only takes one person to do so. Or when your guild starts yelling at you to stop being lazy and play more accounts during raids.

Like others said, if you go on to servers that do allow boxing you can see the effect it has first-hand.

[kildone]

Found a couple good points here
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184197&page=2
Seemed every point had a counter point. Mostly people just say they hate it without giving a reason or saying there would be no groups which as I stated I have never seen to be the case. Maybe people have seen that happen on other eq emu's?

The only real valid point I seen regarded using tools like mq2 but those are banned here right? And from what I read on the forums it is easy to find folks who use those tools.

[Wharhog]

Eq is an old game, it is a great game. I single boxed from 99-06 and had a great time on very populated servers with plenty of groups. I played p99 and grouped exactly 0 times to 50. Why? Because everyone was already 50. When Kunark was released thankfully there were plenty of groups and I didn't have to solo to 60. Since this server has been in Kunark for 4+ years now....I am assuming you are running into the same problems I did when I leveled up my first time here.

P99 is the pinnacle of emulated servers because their content is the closest to live thus far and people enjoy playing here to relive their experiences on live. This server will never condone boxing or it would lose its core.

I myself enjoy boxing two, I do not get pigeon-holed into playing a class that can solo and I can do more to help move raids along playing two rather than one. Therefore I can get more accomplished in the amount of time that I play. This is my personal preference and I have never used any programs to "cheat" in any way because I enjoy the game for what it is. Learning to play two classes as well as one was like almost learning to play all over again. Learning the synergies between multiple classes is a whole other side of eq.

That being said, if you wish to box I would try one of the other EQemu servers that fits your play style.

[katrik]

Nobody wants it here.

[apio]

Sometimes you guys are hilarious :) Whats next, soloing isn't allowed because it gives people the option to not group with you? I mean, where do you stop? I can see the argument for P99, since there is limited content for way too many people, but there are a lot of people boxing on P99, to hold down separate camps, which makes it hard to identify, so the limitations here really only serve to keep the "good people" in check !

Bottom line is I couldn't care less about boxing. Got no beef with it ! :)

[theaetatus]

On blue 99 when the server was new I could understand a ban, but when I was leveling 1-35 two years ago the server was so top heavy that I had a real hard time finding anyone to group with. So much that I stopped playing my cleric to play a Druid so I could solo effectively. Part of this is likely due to mostly being able to play during non peak times?

I would suck at boxing myself but at least I could play any character like maybe a warrior if I had a cleric on the side to buff and heal. I don't want to get banned though so...

On red99, 6 months ago and now recently on a new character I can rarely find a group even in CB or Unrest?

Thoughts on boxing MMOs in general? Advice on finding groups on P99 servers < lvl 40?

I'm not sure what time you're playing but at peak times the usual levelling zones are packed with groups... Hell, there were even 2 full groups in Infected Paw the other week.

[Laugher]

Found a couple good points here
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184197&page=2
Seemed every point had a counter point. Mostly people just say they hate it without giving a reason or saying there would be no groups which as I stated I have never seen to be the case. Maybe people have seen that happen on other eq emu's?

The only real valid point I seen regarded using tools like mq2 but those are banned here right? And from what I read on the forums it is easy to find folks who use those tools.

My actual reason for not boxing? It feels like guitar hero without MQ to me much like how live WoW plays now; its just too much button mashing to feel rewarding when I know I could be playing here and enjoying playing the game. I mean I have a long list of other emus I've played, and all of them I boxed. Usually at least 2, but often times 3 boxes.

I'm not saying single boxing is the end-all to end-all, but even up to Gates-Omens era on live I hardly knew 3 different boxers, and only one of them boxed more than 2 toons. P99's policy on boxing helps emulate that community since emu players don't worry about the finances behind boxing like they did on live.

Coincidentally P99 has steadily hosted the largest eqemu pop I can remember in the last 8 years minus TGC.

tl;dr I'd probably just play newer MMOs if I had to box EQ again.

[Orruar]

If a server allows boxing then it basically forces everyone on that server to box. I boxed on live, and I wouldn't mind boxing occasionally here, but I would never want to feel like I have to box to "keep up with the Jones" (which is what would happen if P99 allowed boxing).

P99 has been in Kunark for like 200 years and you think you'd need to box to keep up with others?

[Orruar]

I boxed on live. At some point I stopped wanting to group and just wanted to see what the highest/hardest mob/encounter was that I could kill while boxing with myself.

It was very lonely. I'm glad people are forced to group here.

If it was lonely, you could have decided to group with people? The "forced kind community" argument is an interesting one though. Of course, if the boxing rule really did foster a spirit of community, you wouldn't expect to have the most anti-social raid scene ever created.

[Orruar]

Mostly people just say they hate it without giving a reason or saying there would be no groups which as I stated I have never seen to be the case. Maybe people have seen that happen on other eq emu's?

A lot of people have memories of their live EQ server dying around the time boxing became more widespread. They then blame the server death on boxing. In reality, the decline in population necessitated more boxing since there weren't enough people without.

[Daldaen]

Basically people want you to be forced to invite them into your group and be forced to interact with them whether you want to or not. These are the same people who whine when I don't feel like taking their 100 plat for porting them somewhere. Also why boxing was fantastic, you didn't have to bother other people to speed up your travel or recovery.

You wouldn't be forced to box. Especially if there were an IP limit put on that stuck you to 2 or 3 boxed characters. There is so much that requires more than 2 characters especially in Velious. 2 boxing would just be convenience mainly for transfers, ports, rezzes and filling final group spots or filling in a group spot that was vacated where the group wouldve collapsed without it.

[myriverse]

If it was lonely, you could have decided to group with people? The "forced kind community" argument is an interesting one though. Of course, if the boxing rule really did foster a spirit of community, you wouldn't expect to have the most anti-social raid scene ever created.
That antisocial raid scene is generated by the intense spirit of community. It's just tribalism.

Even it would be made tremendously worse with boxing.

[Tiggles]

This is a story which I’ve avoided writing about in this space for some time, and since it has very little to do with American politics in general you are to be excused if you’d like to skip over it and move on. The news headline in question is one which has a certain segment of the sports world in a high state of excitement, being the subject of great speculation for several years. Floyd “Money” Mayweather Jr. and Manny Pacquiao are going to enter the boxing ring and fight. And as Jerry Izenberg of the New Jersey Star Ledger points out in a tragic, sad, yet extremely spot on article, this was a fight that would, in some alternate universe, have been glorious roughly one half decade ago. Now, however, it’s just sad.

Just like Ali and Frazier on that boiling hot day in Manila, the inexorable march of time has chipped away at the marvelous skills of Mayweather and Pacquiao. The minus side of all of this is that neither is the fighter he was. On the plus sign, each has lost just about the same amount of talent, so that while they may not be the same as they were, in terms of the matchup they remain as first among equals.

But there is one more thing to understand before you anoint this match as a kind of rescue point, designed to save the entire sport of boxing from oblivion…

But let’s be clear on one thing. It is not the fight that is going to save boxing from extinction because boxing ain’t going anywhere. It may take long breaks in the public eye, but it will always remain the athlete’s foot of all the contact sports in the universe.
Jerry is an old hand with this sport, and as difficult as it may be to imagine from his depressing analysis, he’s still more of an optimist about boxing than I am. Boxing as a sport in America (and really around the world) has been dying a slow death since before many of the people reading this article were born.

Let me first say that I’m not here to criticize or comment excessively on the Mayweather vs Pacquiao fight. That will take place and it will make some money. It won’t mean much, since it really should have taken place back in 2010 instead of Floyd fighting the hapless Shane Mosely when both fighters were in their prime. But the lackluster nature of their final meeting, long delayed over financial squabbling rather than a desire to prove who was the true champion of the squared circle, is more a symptom of the disease which has nearly killed the Sweet Science than any cure for it.

I was a boxing fan from the time I was a kid. My first outing to see a real, professional fight card took place when my future brother-in-law took me to fight night at the War Memorial in Syracuse, New York, when I was in eighth grade. (It was a great day in my life, even though I actually knew that he was only doing it to score points with my sister because he was trying to sleep with her.) Before that, my dad had taken me to some gym fights closer to home, but mostly we watched the big bouts on network television when they took place. I was in love with the sport… the fire and the fury, the sheer, raw nature of two men entering a ring and fighting as if life or death were on the line with only one victor emerging. Even back in the seventies, boxing was already suffering from decay but I didn’t know or care at the time. There were heroes to be worshiped. Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes… they were gods walking on the Earth.

I was so taken with the fantasy of boxing glory that I attempted to pursue it myself when I first entered the military. I was in the featherweight class (126 pounds) because I wasn’t a big guy. Unfortunately, it turned out that I was terrible at it. While it may come as a surprise to learn, getting punched in the face repeatedly for three minutes is really not as much fun as it may appear on television. I soon hung up the gloves, but didn’t lose my love of the sport as a spectator.

Even through my early adult years there were still legendary bouts, though they frequently took place in the lower weight classes. Hagler and Hearns, mixed in with Spinx and Leonard, kept us all on the edge of our seats. It was rife with rumors of corruption, particularly at the lower levels, but we all tuned in for the big fight nights. It was a glorious time. And later- long after the bloom was off the rose- I even got excited about Mike Tyson in his early career. Iron Mike was just awesome and he woke up the world to the wonder of the sport again.

Sadly, there were a number of cancers, both internal and external, eating away at the Sweet Science. From the outside, likely the largest factor metastasizing the disease was Don King. His entry into the sport of boxing signaled the beginning of the end, and he remains, in this writer’s humble opinion, one of the most corrupt figures to ever walk the land and he ruined a beloved American tradition with his greed and organized-crime-style approach to profiting from the sport at the expense of everyone else, particularly the fighters.

But at the same time, the various organizers of the sport were doing themselves no favors from inside the system. Back when I came up and first started subscribing to Ring Magazine, there were really only three boxing organizations which anyone paid attention to; the WBA, the WBO and the IBF. If we had known better at the time we might have realized that three was already two too many, but it seemed natural. It even added some spice to the sport as two or even three champions would vie for a unified, “undisputed” title, allowing for the possibility of two champions entering the ring at once.

Unfortunately, that was a splintering of both the rules and the organizing agents of the sport. It only became worse over time, until we now have such a convoluted alphabet soup of “ruling authorities” in boxing that any of you could probably obtain a “title” by beating one guy (or girl, today) in a single match in a warehouse. The independent associations each fought for a piece of the pie, seeking to shut out the others and capture more of the prize money. They argued and quibbled over the least of things in a power struggle which robbed most titles of the nobility they once held.

The desire for money led to what was probably the final nail in the coffin of boxing, and that was the move to pay-per-view from network television. The first time this idea of “you must pay extra to see a fight” concept of corporate boxing greed reared its ugly head was, I believe, the Thrilla In Manila. Many of us laid down the cash to witness that historic event and felt it was well worth the cost. We had no idea that we were helping to cement the beginning of the end of boxing. The greed on display by the organizers and the managers was well rewarded with big ticket fights, but the sport also began shedding viewers on that day. Only the most dedicated were willing to lay out extra cash for an event which might end after thirty seconds of the main event, and the sport stopped attracting new, younger viewers who might have tuned in for a big name bout.

Soon boxing became the purview of the old school holdouts. The continuing stories of lawsuits and lost wages to Don King and his cronies, along with others who wanted a piece of the pie, eroded the legitimacy of the sport further. The magazines stopped selling and people simply ceased caring. Boxing was, by the end of Mike Tyson’s run when he faced his ignominious loss to Buster Douglas, a zombie staggering across a ruined landscape. What was once the heir to the proud tradition established by Greek Olympic champions was now a criminal enterprise and a joke unfit for serious sports fans.

I stopped watching fights for the most part in the early 1990s. I have tried to get back into it from time to time, including as recently as last year. But it mostly just makes me feel sad and old. The glory days are gone and those controlling the splintered “industry” of boxing today are doing nothing to heal it. And this fight, for whichever of the many titles Money Mayweather is clinging on to, isn’t going to change anything. Boxing is essentially dead, and that’s a tremendous loss to America and the world.

In closing, I offer you the chance to relive some of the last glory days when the world watched the Sweet Science in breathless anticipation. This remains perhaps the most brutal eight minutes of human endeavor ever recorded in sports. Marvelous Marvin Hagler (a man described as being so fierce that hair feared to grow upon his head) against Tommy Hearns, who showed up with every intention to shake the foundations of the boxing word. The battle took place in April of 1985. This was what fighting was always meant to be and is no longer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VI-M9Yw-28

[toolshed]

Boxing on Live made sense with the Bazaar. I was able to box my merchant and play the market while playing my main.

[Swish]

Basically people want you to be forced to invite them into your group and be forced to interact with them whether you want to or not. These are the same people who whine when I don't feel like taking their 100 plat for porting them somewhere. Also why boxing was fantastic, you didn't have to bother other people to speed up your travel or recovery.

You wouldn't be forced to box. Especially if there were an IP limit put on that stuck you to 2 or 3 boxed characters. There is so much that requires more than 2 characters especially in Velious. 2 boxing would just be convenience mainly for transfers, ports, rezzes and filling final group spots or filling in a group spot that was vacated where the group wouldve collapsed without it.

You could technically solo Ragefire with 2-boxing.

Not surprised you're a fan of boxing Daldaen.

[loramin]

*GIANT WALL OF TEXT*


Man you really went all out just to make a pun on the word "boxing". Not sure whether I should be impressed or feel sorry for you ...

[Swish]

Man you really went all out just to make a pun on the word "boxing". Not sure whether I should be impressed or feel sorry for you ...

Personally...

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140218230735/walkingdead/images/c/c4/Didn%27t_read_lol.png

[skootr]

server owner says no. /tread

[myriverse]

Man you really went all out just to make a pun on the word "boxing". Not sure whether I should be impressed or feel sorry for you ...
If it makes you feel better, most of it was just copy/pasted it from somewhere.

[Glenzig]

Can you explain just a bit more why everyone would feel the need to box? I never did on live even when I knew some people who did.


On blue 99 when the server was new I could understand a ban, but when I was leveling 1-35 two years ago the server was so top heavy that I had a real hard time finding anyone to group with. So much that I stopped playing my cleric to play a Druid so I could solo effectively. Part of this is likely due to mostly being able to play during non peak times?

I would suck at boxing myself but at least I could play any character like maybe a warrior if I had a cleric on the side to buff and heal. I don't want to get banned though

[sox7d]

I have seen comments in other threads but wanted to hear opinions in a thread specific to the issue. I honestly don't get it and think the arguments against do not hold water.

It very likely I am just ignorant on the issue. These opinions against are likely based on experience. Did P99 ever try it?

On live EQ I knew a number of folks who two boxed and one guy who would play up to 5. These guys always preferred grouping to boxing. Always glad to drop down to one character to allow folks into a group.

On blue 99 when the server was new I could understand a ban, but when I was leveling 1-35 two years ago the server was so top heavy that I had a real hard time finding anyone to group with. So much that I stopped playing my cleric to play a Druid so I could solo effectively. Part of this is likely due to mostly being able to play during non peak times?

I would suck at boxing myself but at least I could play any character like maybe a warrior if I had a cleric on the side to buff and heal. I don't want to get banned though so...

On red99, 6 months ago and now recently on a new character I can rarely find a group even in CB or Unrest?

Thoughts on boxing MMOs in general? Advice on finding groups on P99 servers < lvl 40?

8/10, well done.

[kildone]

server owner says no. /tread

My question is not about boxing on P99 specifically, so you post added nothing to the discussion, this is the off topic forum after all.

If you could provide info on why the server owner says no that would be helpful. So please go express you desire to end other people's threads elsewhere.

I find most of this thread very interesting.

[kildone]

Glenzig

You miss the point. I would not feel the need to box just because I could. I might desire to box if there was no other way I could play certain classes when no groups are available.

I might be wrong but I seem to read a lot on the forums about how you don't want to play certain classes because nobody will invite you.

[sox7d]

Whatever, I'll bite.

The "play by yourself, together" trend in MMOs has turned the genre from immersive worlds to putting a hose in your mouth that shoots a stead stream of shallow-gratification down your throat. Everquest, FFXI, UO, SWG had bullshit in them. Sometimes it took the form of long leveling, difficult, scattered quests, class imbalance, darkness, inability to solo, no maps, harsh death penalties or dependent transportation. But each of those things, while inconvenient, added something to the game.

Long leveling gave prestige
Difficult, scattered quests gave accomplishment
Class imbalance gave personality
Darkness gave realism
Inability to solo gave community
No maps gave immersion
Harsh death penalties gave emotion
Dependent transportation gave ecology

Maybe its not for everyone, but memorable games need bullshit. Think of it like a cake. A cake consists of two parts, the somewhat unpalatable, spongy bread ("bullshit") and the sweet frosting (leveling up, gear upgrades, convenience). Everyone can agree that the frosting tastes better than the cake itself, but what recent MMORPGS have done is just throw a tub of frosting at the player and tell them to dig in. They get to max level by themselves after a month, then they quit and never think about Age of Conan, SW:TOR, TERA, Aion, Warhammer, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Wildstar or Final Fantasy XIV ever again.

Throw two-boxing into the mix, players now play with themselves and community turns to shit like every other MMORPG out there.

"But you don't have to two-box"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to find a group now, wait until 1/4 of the server is two-boxing. Then more people will be fed up with the LFG times and start boxing which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

P1999 is the last bastion of bullshit, and I'll be damned if anyone takes any of it away.

[Tann]

"But you don't have to two-box"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to find a group now, wait until 1/4 of the server is two-boxing. Then more people will be fed up with the LFG times and start boxing which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

"But you don't have to play an enchanter or a shaman"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to solo now, wait until 1/4 of the server is enc/shm. Then more people will be fed up with not getting loot camps and start a shaman or enchanter which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

[kildone]

Whatever, I'll bite.

The "play by yourself, together" trend in MMOs has turned the genre from immersive worlds to putting a hose in your mouth that shoots a stead stream of shallow-gratification down your throat. Everquest, FFXI, UO, SWG had bullshit in them. Sometimes it took the form of long leveling, difficult, scattered quests, class imbalance, darkness, inability to solo, no maps, harsh death penalties or dependent transportation. But each of those things, while inconvenient, added something to the game.

Long leveling gave prestige
Difficult, scattered quests gave accomplishment
Class imbalance gave personality
Darkness gave realism
Inability to solo gave community
No maps gave immersion
Harsh death penalties gave emotion
Dependent transportation gave ecology

Maybe its not for everyone, but memorable games need bullshit. Think of it like a cake. A cake consists of two parts, the somewhat unpalatable, spongy bread ("bullshit") and the sweet frosting (leveling up, gear upgrades, convenience). Everyone can agree that the frosting tastes better than the cake itself, but what recent MMORPGS have done is just throw a tub of frosting at the player and tell them to dig in. They get to max level by themselves after a month, then they quit and never think about Age of Conan, SW:TOR, TERA, Aion, Warhammer, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Wildstar or Final Fantasy XIV ever again.

Throw two-boxing into the mix, players now play with themselves and community turns to shit like every other MMORPG out there.

"But you don't have to two-box"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to find a group now, wait until 1/4 of the server is two-boxing. Then more people will be fed up with the LFG times and start boxing which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

P1999 is the last bastion of bullshit, and I'll be damned if anyone takes any of it away.

I am still not convinced that just because boxing is allowed that people will. Many say this but nobody offers examples. Are there specific games or periods in those games that it was demonstrated that huge groups of people will box if allowed to? By no means do I have extensive knowledge or experience on the subject and would appreciate more specifics to back up the generalities.

Especially on a server like P99, where so many including myself enjoy the community spirit of grouping, I do not know that it would be a problem.

On live I played a cleric with a good reputation and could always find a group within minutes of logging in. I knew folks though who would sit for two or more hours practically begging for a group. I knew other folks who would two box while looking for a group instead and stop boxing as soon as a group was available. I have never known anyone who would say they don't want a group and would rather box. Those folks who wanted to play alone would play a class that could solo.

[sox7d]

"But you don't have to play an enchanter or a shaman"
When everyone CAN, everyone will. If you think it's hard to solo now, wait until 1/4 of the server is enc/shm. Then more people will be fed up with not getting loot camps and start a shaman or enchanter which ends up being a vicious circle until everyone is.

Never seen a chanter or shaman monopolize a group-typical exp camp in CB, BB, Unrest, MM, CoM or KC. They're also quite prone to grouping with other people which likely wouldn't be the case if two-boxing was allowed, or best yet, fill a space at a busy camp "because I need my monk to stay the same level as my sham."

[kildone]

...but recent MMORPGS have done is just throw a tub of frosting at the player and tell them to dig in. They get to max level by themselves after a month, then they quit and never think about Age of Conan, SW:TOR, TERA, Aion, Warhammer, Marvel Heroes, Guild Wars 2, Rift, Wildstar or Final Fantasy XIV ever again.



These examples seem more related to game mechanics and design and not about boxing. I don't think progressing on this train of though directly to boxing can be made logically without more evidence.

[kildone]

One last argument on 'if boxing was allowed...' People do box on P99 if they want to. I think it is the players themselves and not the rules or the enforcement that keeps boxing to such a minimum here.

It is more likely that the benefit of the rule is that it is a banner that has drawn like minded players together to one place.

[sox7d]

I am still not convinced that just because boxing is allowed that people will. Many say this but nobody offers examples. Are there specific games or periods in those games that it was demonstrated that huge groups of people will box if allowed to? By no means do I have extensive knowledge or experience on the subject and would appreciate more specifics to back up the generalities.

Especially on a server like P99, where so many including myself enjoy the community spirit of grouping, I do not know that it would be a problem.

On live I played a cleric with a good reputation and could always find a group within minutes of logging in. I knew folks though who would sit for two or more hours practically begging for a group. I knew other folks who would two box while looking for a group instead and stop boxing as soon as a group was available. I have never known anyone who would say they don't want a group and would rather box. Those folks who wanted to play alone would play a class that could solo.

Shards of Dalaya, a classic-inspired server, nearly everyone has a box.

Two-boxing is an outright advantage, and once some people elect to use that advantage, that puts the uninvolved at a disadvantage comparatively on the server.

When PoP was released and PoK was only available if you bought the expansion, everyone did even if they were pre-46, because they didn't want to be at a disadvantage.

The people that want two boxing on this server fall into two groups.
Those that have drank the koolaid of MMORPGs in the past 10 years and just want their frosting bucket and those that have been max level on P99 for too long and can't see any satisfaction in the game short of hording more money or 60 alts.

[sox7d]

These examples seem more related to game mechanics and design and not about boxing. I don't think progressing on this train of though directly to boxing can be made logically without more evidence.

"I hate when I can't find a group, I wish I could box so I can level at any time."

"A massive list of games where any class can get max level by themselves with their eyes closed has nothing to do with boxing."

You're fucking retarded.

[kildone]

"I hate when I can't find a group, I wish I could box so I can level at any time."

"A massive list of games where any class can get max level by themselves with their eyes closed has nothing to do with boxing."

You're fucking retarded.

Some people like to jump to conclusions bridging gaps with theory and speculation. Some people like to theorize and speculate but remain objective and prefer a more scientific approach to passing from hypothesis to fact.

People from the first group often lash out at those in the second group when those in the second group hesitate to make the leap with them.

Thank you for your initial posts they were great starters for a good discussion. The last post does little to advance your argument.

[Glenzig]

Glenzig

You miss the point. I would not feel the need to box just because I could. I might desire to box if there was no other way I could play certain classes when no groups are available.

I might be wrong but I seem to read a lot on the forums about how you don't want to play certain classes because nobody will invite you.

Oh that's why you started a thread about it? Because its something you really don't want to do? Yeah ok. You, me , and everyone else would box if the option were made available. In every mmo I have played where it is allowed I have initially resisted the option to box. But after a while with groups being hard to get due to the prevalence of boxers, I have given in and found myself boxing toons from that point on.
The window for "man I just can't find any groups" reduces enormously for some people when the option to box is present, and completely erases the need or desire to even look for a group for most of the population. If you think that it wouldn't hurt the community, just look at how many people get banned for breaking this rule at present. And on top of that the amount of people that circumvent the rule by obtaining an IP exemption for their "wives", or "sons", or "roommates".
Everyone would do it. If not initially, then eventually. It ruins mmo's. Its against the server rules. And it adds nothing to the EQ experience that cannot already be had by relying on the community. Those seem like pretty good reasons not to allow it to me.

[sox7d]

Oh that's why you started a thread about it? Because its something you really don't want to do? Yeah ok. You, me , and everyone else would box if the option were made available. In every mmo I have played where it is allowed I have initially resisted the option to box. But after a while with groups being hard to get due to the prevalence of boxers, I have given in and found myself boxing toons from that point on.
The window for "man I just can't find any groups" reduces enormously for some people when the option to box is present, and completely erases the need or desire to even look for a group for most of the population. If you think that it wouldn't hurt the community, just look at how many people get banned for breaking this rule at present. And on top of that the amount of people that circumvent the rule by obtaining an IP exemption for their "wives", or "sons", or "roommates".
Everyone would do it. If not initially, then eventually. It ruins mmo's. Its against the server rules. And it adds nothing to the EQ experience that cannot already be had by relying on the community. Those seem like pretty good reasons not to allow it to me.

tfw find myself agreeing with glenzig 100%. this is some russia & US vs germany shit.

[PDX0621]

What Glenzig said. I couldn't agree more!

[kildone]

Oh that's why you started a thread about it? Because its something you really don't want to do? Yeah ok. You, me , and everyone else would box if the option were made available. In every mmo I have played where it is allowed I have initially resisted the option to box. But after a while with groups being hard to get due to the prevalence of boxers, I have given in and found myself boxing toons from that point on.
The window for "man I just can't find any groups" reduces enormously for some people when the option to box is present, and completely erases the need or desire to even look for a group for most of the population. If you think that it wouldn't hurt the community, just look at how many people get banned for breaking this rule at present. And on top of that the amount of people that circumvent the rule by obtaining an IP exemption for their "wives", or "sons", or "roommates".
Everyone would do it. If not initially, then eventually. It ruins mmo's. Its against the server rules. And it adds nothing to the EQ experience that cannot already be had by relying on the community. Those seem like pretty good reasons not to allow it to me.

The distinction I was making is between wanting to box and feeling the need to box. Some folks want to eat pizza and wings. On the other hand some folks feel the need to smoke, likely because it is legal and nicotine is addictive.

I appreciate your deeper explanation on how it can progress from only wanting to box when "needed" to becoming the norm. How it can change the atmosphere of a server / community over time. After considering your arguments as well as others on this thread, I believe it makes sense.

I honestly feel that I would stop playing if I boxed more than an hour without finding a group. I quickly grew tired of boxing (my buddies Enc) on live when the game started to spiral and canceled my account.

As for starting this thread because I want to box on P99 that is not the case. If that was my motivation for making posts I would be posting on the thread in general chat. I genuinely just enjoy a good discussion and wanted to see how many well thought out reasons there were against it rather than the typical one liners.

Again there is a distinction, maybe subtle, between wanting to box sometimes and that being the reason for starting this thread. I understand completly that boxing will always be prohibited here and any posts in attempt to reverse that would be a waste of time.

The discussion here though was definitely not a waste of my time. I thoroughly enjoyed it and feel like I learned some things.

Thanks again to you and the others who posted well thought out responses.
Wish I could buy you all a beer.