Petition: Guild raid suspensions should be progressively longer every time

[toolshed]

GM decisions are their own and you guys have no reason to listen to any of us on this stuff, but....

I just wanted to say that you would have support if you guys decided that raid suspensions should get longer every time a guild was suspended. A guild that has been suspended 6 times should be treated differently than a guild that has never been suspended.

Maybe increase the suspension by one week for every time they have been suspended before? 1 week for first suspension, mandatory 2 week suspension for their second infraction, 3 weeks for their third, etc. Yes, a guild that has been suspended FOUR TIMES should be raid banned for a month - that is taking it lightly.

This would have a couple of effects: 1) guilds that continually shit on the community and break the rules are punished more harshly, 2) make a guild less likely to break the rules since they know they have a limited times to 'mess up', 3) if a new guild does not know the rules and genuinely makes a mistake, they will not be punished as hard as a guild that is continually making the same 'mistakes'

[Flamewraith]

I like this, but maybe add diminishing effects over time? Like if a guild is banned thee times over three months, however for every two months they go clean their next sentence is reduced by a week.

[Ezalor]

+1

[Reeses_007]

+1

[Daldaen]

I agree with you, but more importantly... I'd like to see:

Suspensions for entire respawn cycles. The whole "Next Class X Nagafen" suspension is ridiculous. It doesn't deter the behavior at all. Make them lose an entire week of every single mob spawns.

And help me understand the VP suspension TMO has. They are suspended Monday-Friday from VP. Correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't all Raid mobs spawning Saturday/Sunday except for Vox and Gore? Are there any VP mobs that bleed into Monday?

[Tiggles]

GM decisions are their own and you guys have no reason to listen to any of us on this stuff, but....

I just wanted to say that you would have support if you guys decided that raid suspensions should get longer every time a guild was suspended. A guild that has been suspended 6 times should be treated differently than a guild that has never been suspended.

Maybe increase the suspension by one week for every time they have been suspended before? 1 week for first suspension, mandatory 2 week suspension for their second infraction, 3 weeks for their third, etc. Yes, a guild that has been suspended FOUR TIMES should be raid banned for a month - that is taking it lightly.

This would have a couple of effects: 1) guilds that continually shit on the community and break the rules are punished more harshly, 2) make a guild less likely to break the rules since they know they have a limited times to 'mess up', 3) if a new guild does not know the rules and genuinely makes a mistake, they will not be punished as hard as a guild that is continually making the same 'mistakes'


Nah

[Reeses_007]

I agree with you, but more importantly... I'd like to see:

Suspensions for entire respawn cycles. The whole "Next Class X Nagafen" suspension is ridiculous. It doesn't deter the behavior at all. Make them lose an entire week of every single mob spawns.

And help me understand the VP suspension TMO has. They are suspended Monday-Friday from VP. Correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't all Raid mobs spawning Saturday/Sunday except for Vox and Gore? Are there any VP mobs that bleed into Monday?

That's correct lol. Suspended Monday-Friday! Man what a punishment! They must be so upset to be missing all those spawns!

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/smashbroslawlorigins/images/1/1e/Mickey_mouse_troll_color_by_silgan-d4qyf4f.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131005212005

[azeth]

How about 1 random BIS item deleted off a random guild member per infraction :p

[toolshed]

I agree with you, but more importantly... I'd like to see:

Suspensions for entire respawn cycles. The whole "Next Class X Nagafen" suspension is ridiculous. It doesn't deter the behavior at all. Make them lose an entire week of every single mob spawns.

And help me understand the VP suspension TMO has. They are suspended Monday-Friday from VP. Correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't all Raid mobs spawning Saturday/Sunday except for Vox and Gore? Are there any VP mobs that bleed into Monday?

I agree that the respawn cycles should be built into the rules, but please let us keep this thread about future modifications to the raid rules and not about the semantics about past suspensions.

How about 1 random BIS item deleted off a random guild member per infraction :p

I was thinking about adding a "100k pp fine per infraction" or something to the OP, but I think that would incentivize RMT. Having a monetary (plat) fine would be very similar to how the NFL/NBA does fines, but I think that fine would have to be in addition to any type of raid suspension from raiding.

[moss_snake_shadowknight]

BDA work within the rules, so it would mean more pixels for sure.

Spoon it up.

[Loke]

You guys act like suspensions are the result of players maliciously plotting to break the rules, when in actuality it is usually simple mistakes or single members not understanding some of the ridiculously complicated, ever changing, subjective, and poorly documented rules.

It seems like every few weeks there is some random person chiming in with their own brand of how to fix the raid scene, when 9 times out of 10 they aren't part of the raid scene and have no idea what is actually going on. I have no idea who the OP is, but a system like that makes absolutely no sense for at least the class C guilds (I can't speak to class R since I haven't paid attention to what is going on with them).

Not only that, but this change would result in rule lawyering becoming more important as guilds try to get out of suspensions and get their competition suspended.

[toolshed]

Nah

Could you (or TMO in general) please elaborate on why you think this would be a bad policy going forward?

[Connecticut]

The real question is, why even make a guild to raid?

With voice chat, batphones and forums there are more than enough communication tools available to not be affiliated with a guild tag, but still raid as a unit.

It would also bypass raid classes and restrictions currently in place for guilds.



You think you hate <guild X> now, just wait till they can't be punished as a whole!
I smell big things to come on the p99 underground raiding scene. ;)

[toolshed]

You guys act like suspensions are the result of players maliciously plotting to break the rules, when in actuality it is usually simple mistakes or single members not understanding some of the ridiculously complicated, ever changing, subjective, and poorly documented rules.

I agree that the rules are overly complicated, but transparency in raid suspensions themselves would help in understanding what to do and what not to do.

And I doubt that TMO and IB are having their brand new members pull mobs to their raids. People in these guilds know what they are doing and the ignorance-excuse is pretty appalling considering how old this game is and how long we have been playing it. You kind of made my point though: TMO and IB would be more cautious in regards to pulling/raiding in general if they knew that the stakes were higher.

The top guilds know what the rules are man, lets just be honest. The top guilds helped write the rules.

PS - I have no idea who you are either. The difference between us that I don't care who you are.

[Frieza_Prexus]

The issue is that current punishments are generally ad hoc. Similar punishments have been handed out for drastically different offenses and similar offenses have merited drastically different punishments.

Without a way to differentiate the "misdemeanor" from the "felony," progressive punishments won't really work out. There's no meaningful standard. For example, many puller errors in VP are often punished with the "suspension" of a single dragon which is actually a simple recognition of "your puller messed up, so drop it" yet the language of "suspension" makes you think that the rules were violated with ill intent. Other times, puller error results in out-and-out suspension. The same is also true for intentional violations; the inconsistent standard applies there as well.

Regarding toolshed's proposal, I think the community overall, including Class C, would welcome it if the proper procedures were in place to make the process more consistent, more efficient, easier to understand, fairer, and more public.

Public raid petitions (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172491) would perhaps go hand-in-hand with this type of system.

[Frieza_Prexus]

And I doubt that TMO and IB are having their brand new members pull mobs to their raids.

You'd be surprised. A good amount of these infractions are the result of exactly this.

One interesting fact is that guilds have, several times over the years, been disciplined over inexperienced puller error only for that player to deguild within minutes and join the competition as a "reward" for the error with no punishment following the erring player.

[Orruar]

WTS raid suspensions. For 250k (starting bid), I will infiltrate a guild with an alt and take an action that leads to that guild being raid suspended. PM me with bids.

[Daldaen]

Or maybe... The pulls people do are so ridiculous that there are so many things which could possibly go wrong and result in training the other guild(s) present that *MAYBE* we shouldn't try those tactics. *MAYBE* training the entire zone spawn in Hate, Fear, VP, Naggys Lair, Permafrost... Is something that should have high risk associated with it, not simply shrugged off as "it is the way those encounters are".

Make someone wiping you with their botched train in Hate or Fear or on classic Dragons a 4 week suspension. You will see guilds be a lot more careful or come up with a new strategy real quick.

Would love to see some classic crawls, not herpderp trains.

[Ella`Ella]

Or maybe... The pulls people do are so ridiculous that there are so many things which could possibly go wrong and result in training the other guild(s) present that *MAYBE* we shouldn't try those tactics. *MAYBE* training the entire zone spawn in Hate, Fear, VP, Naggys Lair, Permafrost... Is something that should have high risk associated with it, not simply shrugged off as "it is the way those encounters are".

Make someone wiping you with their botched train in Hate or Fear or on classic Dragons a 4 week suspension. You will see guilds be a lot more careful or come up with a new strategy real quick.

Would love to see some classic crawls, not herpderp trains.

Have you ever led a raid?

[Orruar]

Or maybe... The pulls people do are so ridiculous that there are so many things which could possibly go wrong and result in training the other guild(s) present that *MAYBE* we shouldn't try those tactics. *MAYBE* training the entire zone spawn in Hate, Fear, VP, Naggys Lair, Permafrost... Is something that should have high risk associated with it, not simply shrugged off as "it is the way those encounters are".

Make someone wiping you with their botched train in Hate or Fear or on classic Dragons a 4 week suspension. You will see guilds be a lot more careful or come up with a new strategy real quick.

Would love to see some classic crawls, not herpderp trains.

This right here. Back on live we got along with other guilds because we knew if we had the GMs come in, nobody would be happy. The staff here should have been handing down bans/suspensions like candy years ago and that would have forced people to play nice and learn to get along.

[Orruar]

Have you ever led a raid?

So to you, only raid leaders can have an opinion on this topic? I think only people whose names start with O should be listened to.

[Ella`Ella]

So to you, only raid leaders can have an opinion on this topic? I think only people whose names start with O should be listened to.

Having an opinion on matter means that on some level you have a basic understanding of the subject material in which you base your opinion on. Having led a raid would be a good qualifier. Maybe even zoning into VP a single time would even be a good start before commenting on the manner in which the content is engaged.

[Loke]

Easy there champ, I only said I didn't know who you were since I wasnt sure if you were part of the raid scene, hence wasn't sure if my statement about non-raiders trying to revamp the raid rules. No need to get touchy.

I can assure you, there are large portions of both TMO and IB that likely don't know what all the rules are. I know because I was a member of IB for numerous years and was guilded with a large portion of TMO in FE. New players also pull all the time. Tagging FTE is a race, not something you wait for your most experienced members to log on for. Hell, just look at BDA. Theyre currently on suspension from sev because their puller didn't even know the zone, which is far less complicated than understanding the rules.

Like I said before, this would only result in more work for the GMs as guilds would be punished/rewarded more for being suspended/getting their competition suspended, making rule lawyering much more important to a guilds overall success.

Your intentions are in the right place I guess, it just isn't a good idea and doesn't solve the actual problems in the raid scene.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Or maybe... The pulls people do are so ridiculous that there are so many things which could possibly go wrong and result in training the other guild(s) present that *MAYBE* we shouldn't try those tactics. *MAYBE* training the entire zone spawn in Hate, Fear, VP, Naggys Lair, Permafrost... Is something that should have high risk associated with it, not simply shrugged off as "it is the way those encounters are".

Make someone wiping you with their botched train in Hate or Fear or on classic Dragons a 4 week suspension. You will see guilds be a lot more careful or come up with a new strategy real quick.

Would love to see some classic crawls, not herpderp trains.

For VP, trains are currently the most workable standard with the highest expected payoff. The only other standard that would require less intervention by the staff would be a return to a completely FFA VP which many in Class C would welcome. Forcing some kind of classic standard on VP kills would result in way more headache and non-classic coding.

guilds would be punished/rewarded more for being suspended/getting their competition suspended, making rule lawyering much more important to a guilds overall success.


Excellent point. Any rules suggestions must be constructed to eliminate or reduce the incentive to play lawyerquest.

[Basenji]

WTS raid suspensions. For 250k (starting bid), I will infiltrate a guild with an alt and take an action that leads to that guild being raid suspended. PM me with bids.


This is a positive, right? It ends zerg recruiting. It sounds awesome.

Why yes, I did play EVE. Why do you ask?

[arsenalpow]

Having an opinion on matter means that on some level you have a basic understanding of the subject material in which you base your opinion on. Having led a raid would be a good qualifier. Maybe even zoning into VP a single time would even be a good start before commenting on the manner in which the content is engaged.

You don't have to be a doctor to diagnose a sickness, you know that.

The TMO/IB raid strat is win/win. Either you get the kill or you've created such a shitshow train that it's likely to wipe the competition too so you get a 2nd bite.

[Paleman]

fuck that, i like the 2 strike method.

fuck up once, get a warning. fuck up the same way again and get banned.

[Man0warr]

It's required for killing shit in VP, but only because the trash respawn timers are so short.

Outside of that, everywhere else the train strat shouldn't be a viable tactic - should get you suspended if your train wipes other guilds.

[Ele]

Need more reach during disputes:

http://i.imgur.com/ak7l1Qb.jpg

[toolshed]

The current raid setup is incentivizing lawyerquesting because all disputes are currently handled that way. If Guild A and Guild B were both facing 4 week suspensions, they are more likely to work things out between themselves due to fear of GM intervention; transparency of the length of raid suspensions means a more honest dialogue.

[quido]

Blue is now known as Maggotquest

[Loke]

I can get behind more transparency, I just think increasing the punishment is akin to trying to win the war on drugs by sending people to jail for 25 years for their third possession charge. Hard to make the punishment fit the crime when the crime itself ambiguously defined due to numerous revisions and non-uniform interpretation.

[toolshed]

fuck that, i like the 2 strike method.

fuck up once, get a warning. fuck up the same way again and get banned.

On live, did anyone remember a guild punishment that was as weak as a 5 day ban? Honestly.

One of the big questions that I think is being posed in this thread is, why do we have such a problem with lawyerquesting on P99? I think the answer, and one of the biggest differences between live/retail and P99, is GM involvement. With GMs being involved less, and fines/punishments being more heavy, it made guilds get along rather than go tattle on one another to the GMs as fast as possible.

None of the raiding problems in Everquest and P99 - VP mob positions, guilds engaging without training one another, first to engage mobs - are new. None of them. Why act that way? Nobody is breaking new grounds here. We should enact some of the safeguards that live/retail had and stop using ignorance as an excuse. We, the playerbase, have been around too long for that excuse.

[Jizzebel]

BDA work within the rules, so it would mean more pixels for sure.

Spoon it up.

How about you fix your signature tool

[XnderXcore]

How about you fix your signature toolIs that all?

[Frieza_Prexus]

If Guild A and Guild B were both facing 4 week suspensions, they are more likely to work things out between themselves due to fear of GM intervention; transparency of the length of raid suspensions means a more honest dialogue.

The is certainly true to an extent, though you would see a fair amount of "madman" game theory strategies. We're already seeing that now. However, it would not be good policy to hand out 4 week suspensions for minor accidents. The rules need differentiation and fairness throughout the entire process. Public petitions would really help accomplish what you're looking for.

[winko]

You don't have to be a doctor to diagnose a sickness, you know that.

^^Stupidest comment of this whole thread. Med schools exist for a reason.

[Varren]

^^Stupidest comment of this whole thread. Med schools exist for a reason.

My son has a cold. I once had chickenpox!

[August]

This thread is the reason I looked at the raid scene 2 years ago, and said, nope! I've been a hardcore EQ raider before in my life, but this is not the place for it. I really struggle to even understand the point of the loot treadmill in a stagnant MMO. If you can kill VP mobs you can get gear to... kill VP mobs?

Epic mobs I get - everyone wants their cool pixel-epic. But just, well-statted gear? What for? What do you want to do with it? Raid more VP? You can already raid VP... Sweet items that let you... farm items for alts? Just make an alt!

In actual progression MMOs you raid to be ready for the next tier. There is no new tier here. You're doing it just to do it. How someone can sit down for 4+ years killing the same 32k dragons just.. it's mind-boggling. And the rules and the heartache and the gnashing of teeth, please folks, take a good look at yourself and ask, why am I a pumpkin?

[Paleman]

On live, did anyone remember a guild punishment that was as weak as a 5 day ban? Honestly.

One of the big questions that I think is being posed in this thread is, why do we have such a problem with lawyerquesting on P99? I think the answer, and one of the biggest differences between live/retail and P99, is GM involvement. With GMs being involved less, and fines/punishments being more heavy, it made guilds get along rather than go tattle on one another to the GMs as fast as possible.

None of the raiding problems in Everquest and P99 - VP mob positions, guilds engaging without training one another, first to engage mobs - are new. None of them. Why act that way? Nobody is breaking new grounds here. We should enact some of the safeguards that live/retail had and stop using ignorance as an excuse. We, the playerbase, have been around too long for that excuse.


this is the most obvious problem here. Its almost as if the GMs are afraid to punish people for things that they do( I wouldnt honestly know why, if TMO, or IB were disbanded its not like no top tier guild would be raiding and people wouldn't find a home). We are all over 20 now at the least if we play this game. When we were kids we learned how to bypass or tolerate punishment, when we got used to that we leveraged the punishment against the action that warranted it. Guilds on p99 do the same thing. They know that the punishment is simple and tolerable. I would go as far as saying they probably at times discuss the possibility of punishment and even nominate people specifically to break rules at times.

I really think 2 strikes is the way to go. we all have played this game before, we cant really rationalize camp stealing, and other heinous things here. One mistake and then after that you lose that account. Maybe a guild should get a max of 3 strikes before being forced to disband but thats it. Consequences are supposed to be real, and felt. They are supposed to teach someone not to make the same mistake twice. When people break the rules more than once, they are literally saying " fuck the rules, fuck who made them, and fuck who enforces them"

I think a good reason that live was more punishing about stuff that is allowed here is because they knew that people were addicted, and would come back, probably pay for the expansions again and they would still get money out of that person even if they were banned. Maybe its possible the GMs worry about exiling parts of their community? For what I wouldnt know, unless they get something out of the bad parts of this community.

[Tasslehofp99]

The nature of "competitive" raiding on p99 often breeds error in the heat of the moment, and occasionally someone will do something intentionally shitheaded.


What we really need is public raid petitions instead of them being behind closed doors. Aside from being 100% transparent, this would also help to establish a place that can be referenced for precedent. The GMs from live who were paid CSR reps didn't interfere as much as the volunteers we have here. OR.....

Players need to be able to work shit out on their own; maybe even have a player tribunal made up of all of the guilds. When one guild is proven to have made an infraction, the rest of the guilds vote on their fate. No GM's necessary.

[Kope]

+1

Guilds have left the server before (IB) But they came back. This server does have something special about it that others cannot replicate easily, and people are drawn to that. I've stopped playing multiple times since I started playing here, but I always come back, there's nothing like P99.

Cleaning up the raid scene doesn't mean halting competition or the drive to kill raid mobs, that will all still happen. Heck, look at class R, not everyone liked the rotation but it was easy to manage and the GMs had less to deal with, even with the large amount of guilds in class R (Still applicable today).

What happened to earthquakes? What was the reason they stopped happening so frequently (it was part of the raid discussions that they were to happen to make sure class C got the same amount of mobs while class R had mobs too)? I wasn't here when they stopped happening but I've heard Rogean put a nix on them because of the toxicity that occurred in class C? Would it really be a bad thing to clean all of that up?

I'm not talking about disbanding guilds randomly because I don't like them, I'm talking about repeat offenders being punished adequately and incrementally more dramatically as they continue to break rules, even while others are able to not do so in the name of the health of the entire server.

Take a look at the "Raid Discussion" forum. On the first page of the raid forum, there are 4 suspension posts for TMO alone. That's twice that of the guild with the second most suspensions (IB with 2).

What percentage of the population raids again? How much time do the GMs devote to them?

[Krycek]

This thread is the reason I looked at the raid scene 2 years ago, and said, nope! I've been a hardcore EQ raider before in my life, but this is not the place for it. I really struggle to even understand the point of the loot treadmill in a stagnant MMO. If you can kill VP mobs you can get gear to... kill VP mobs?

Epic mobs I get - everyone wants their cool pixel-epic. But just, well-statted gear? What for? What do you want to do with it? Raid more VP? You can already raid VP... Sweet items that let you... farm items for alts? Just make an alt!

In actual progression MMOs you raid to be ready for the next tier. There is no new tier here. You're doing it just to do it. How someone can sit down for 4+ years killing the same 32k dragons just.. it's mind-boggling. And the rules and the heartache and the gnashing of teeth, please folks, take a good look at yourself and ask, why am I a pumpkin?

This.

[azxten]

+1

Also add a three strikes rule. Get 3 suspensions in a year and your guild is disbanded.

[Daldaen]

Have you ever led a raid?

Yes; In basically every expansion, from classic - VoA. From classic PoFear clears to the most complex raids EQ has to offer.

I understand why it is the prevailing strategy among guilds who contest CT/Inny/VP. If you can't kite, you are going to be forced to clear some amount of trash. And on this server that translates to "Who is going to get occupied with trash so that we can leap frog them". Clear too little trash and train around, you will face your 2 week suspension. Clear too much and the next guild will leapfrog you. Its just going to be a new test of "when can we go, reasonably handle the mobs we have and kill the boss".

You will just want to be more conservative about when you go. Due to this there will be less WTF trains and less petitions because people actually FEAR the punishment. The current punishments though are less than a slap on the wrist. 5 Day suspension when nothing is in window? 1 Week off a SINGLE mob? People scoff at these for a reason.

I just can't fathom how people think that the current punishments for herp-derp trains that wipe other's guilds, or prevent other guilds from making attempts at mobs are acceptable or enough to discourage rulebreaking or sloppy decision making.

[quido]

or maybe you dipshits should abolish the rules and let blue return to a game of moderate skill instead of extreme petitionquest

[Nuggie]

There are ways to go about solving problems. The first step is to clearly identify a problem you see so that everyone is on the same page for the discussion. What specific problem are you trying to solve here?

Generally speaking I prefer less restrictions/rules/laws. Only select groups benefit from complex rules. Those who are willing to spend the time finding ways around them (rules lawyers).

Regarding August's post: we couldn't anticipate velious taking 4 or 5 years to finish. Also, most people have taken breaks during that time to do other things.

[Daldaen]

Problem: Training/Raid Interference Rules don't penalize enough to discourage the behavior.

Solution: Make the penalty actually hurt the guilds. Multi-Week, All mob suspensions. Not the current, 5 days off when nothing is in window or 1 single mob lockout.

[Nuggie]

Problem: Training/Raid Interference Rules don't penalize enough to discourage the behavior.

Not everyone(playerbase-wise) see's this as a problem. So doesn't this then come down to one playerbase trying to dictate to another how to play the game?

[Daldaen]

Not everyone(playerbase-wise) see's this as a problem. So doesn't this then come down to one playerbase trying to dictate to another how to play the game?

So you think that a guild who repeatedly trains around and week after week wipes other guilds, should simply have to sit out one spawn of that mob? And continue their typical ways?

[Nuggie]

You're putting words in my mouth Dald. No, I dont. I think people that want to play here should adhere to the rules of the server.

But as a root problem, I think the tactics being used should looked at first. Not the disciplinary actions.

So, why allow train pulling in the first place?

Do any of you remember when Conquest of Lanys got disbanded and several of their members banned for trying to use the bridges to block aoe's from the warders? The live CSR staff simply let it be known that the encounter wasn't designed for that type of tactic to be used. So don't do it.

If the train pulling is causing the problems then do not allow guilds to use it. Make them clear the mobs.

[Blaza]

Perma Root raid mobs. Trash can be trained around/out but would still require a raid force getting to mob location, which would at least involve the skill of dodging trains.

It is a top-heavy server, with some animosity between players, so shortcuts and "dirty" tactics (whether resulting in a raid suspension or not) are frequent. Also, people make mistakes. Past guild/player history should come into effect in determining a suspension, not a 'one size fits all' punishment.

[arsenalpow]

Perma Root raid mobs. Trash can be trained around/out but would still require a raid force getting to mob location, which would at least involve the skill of dodging trains.

It is a top-heavy server, with some animosity between players, so shortcuts and "dirty" tactics (whether resulting in a raid suspension or not) are frequent. Also, people make mistakes. Past guild/player history should come into effect in determining a suspension, not a 'one size fits all' punishment.

Fuck it, root raid mobs and make it so 96% isn't the summon requirement, they can summon at 100%

[Orruar]

or maybe you dipshits should abolish the rules and let blue return to a game of moderate skill instead of extreme petitionquest

Got any Larrikan's masks for sale?

[HallyVee]

Not only that, but this change would result in rule lawyering becoming more important as guilds try to get out of suspensions and get their competition suspended.

I can't speak to the rest of your argument but this part is like saying we shouldn't criminalize bank robbing because the bank robbers would then have incentive to rob banks to pay for their lawyers, who defend them from bank robbing charges.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Sirken should just host a weekly Judge Judy-esque public trial on Twitch to go over the presented evidence, determine guilt, and dish out the sentence. I would watch that.

[kaev]

I can't speak to the rest of your argument but this part is like saying we shouldn't criminalize bank robbing because the bank robbers would then have incentive to rob banks to pay for their lawyers, who defend them from bank robbing charges.

Congratulations! You have attained a full and complete understanding of the p99 raid scene and the means used to regulate it.

[HallyVee]

This thread is the reason I looked at the raid scene 2 years ago, and said, nope! I've been a hardcore EQ raider before in my life, but this is not the place for it. I really struggle to even understand the point of the loot treadmill in a stagnant MMO. If you can kill VP mobs you can get gear to... kill VP mobs?

Epic mobs I get - everyone wants their cool pixel-epic. But just, well-statted gear? What for? What do you want to do with it? Raid more VP? You can already raid VP... Sweet items that let you... farm items for alts? Just make an alt!

In actual progression MMOs you raid to be ready for the next tier. There is no new tier here. You're doing it just to do it. How someone can sit down for 4+ years killing the same 32k dragons just.. it's mind-boggling. And the rules and the heartache and the gnashing of teeth, please folks, take a good look at yourself and ask, why am I a pumpkin?

Surely this is hyperbole, and you realize some simply raid for fun, literally for the fun of group play? Honestly, I'd raid even if I never got a single item drop, ever. It really is a valid gaming goal, the experience rather than the progress derived.

[Triangle]

double post

[Triangle]

Having an opinion on matter means that on some level you have a basic understanding of the subject material in which you base your opinion on. Having led a raid would be a good qualifier. Maybe even zoning into VP a single time would even be a good start before commenting on the manner in which the content is engaged.

Pretty sure Orruar was the raid leader of Triality way back in Classic EQ...

[wycca]

Pretty sure Orruar was the raid leader of Triality way back in Classic EQ...

Yes and guild leader. Damn good at it, and probably best player I've seen in the game. Different era's though, Triality didn't really form until PoP. He has some experience from our time together in A-Team on P99, including as raid leader, but not really sure of his grasp on the current dynamics behind Class C and the new FFA Class R (and Class R is going to end up worse petition-wise than C in short order).

Orr - if you want to discuss it with me sometime toss me an email or login.


Also, if anyone thinks that the # of bans has anything to do with the # of infractions and rule breaks they're sadly mistaken. All sort of things happen, from negotiations in advance, to some stuff being tossed aside for lack of evidence, stuff being combined, stuff being seperated, etc. One thing P99 is bad at is setting any sort of rule precidents - it's all subject to change. You can govern on a GM side 2 ways - from a judicial approach with precedents and standard punishments, or from an Arbiter perspective, with things changing based on each situation, variables unknown to anyone except maybe petitioning guilds, and various dynamics. Sirken tends to use the latter, not the former. This proposal might work in the former, but does not work in the latter. For better or worse P99 uses an arbiter setup instead of a judicial setup.

[Llodd]

Not everyone(playerbase-wise) see's this as a problem. So doesn't this then come down to one playerbase trying to dictate to another how to play the game?

Which is exactly what is happening now. The top guilds have set the precedent for the current shitshow of training without consideration to get at the pixels as fast as possible. If you don't conform to that mechanic you will get diddly-squat. Saying that; the CT race between Gimpatron and Divinity was more a case of clearing some trash first, which in turn made training one another far less likely. As far as I know neither side did.

Ofcourse the glorious irony in all this is that none of the top guilds can see that because they're stuck so far up their own pixel ass that without the dumb training where guilds do clear somewhat and open themselves up to being leap-frogged it's probable that the loot spoils in the long run end up being distributed the same between the guilds anyway.

[Doil_Boil]

Good to see some appeal to authority logical fallacies going down in this thread.

Carry on!

[Basenji]

Which is exactly what is happening now. The top guilds have set the precedent for the current shitshow of training without consideration to get at the pixels as fast as possible. If you don't conform to that mechanic you will get diddly-squat.

This really should be highlighted more. A relatively small group of people are monopolizing a major portion of the server's content. And they're doing it in a way that actively discourages me from wanting to participate.

I mostly want to raid to re-experience the raiding content, which is the point of this server as I understand it. I'd be happy to tag along without any chance at getting gear. But the current raid scene simply isn't classic. I stumbled on a Sev raid while running to CoM, so I decided to watch. The dragon died in like 15 seconds. There's just nothing to experience there for me. There never was anything new as I've raided all this content before, and in the current state there isn't even anything nostalgic. Plus, it seems like a lot of the people are dicks, given that they allow the training strats. It's just not worth it to run out there and watch a dragon die that fast, even if I were in on the loot. I can't be the only one here who feels like that.

A wipe would solve a lot of problems. The content would become available again. A lot of the dicks that like to monopolize content as a form of PVP would leave, because it wouldn't be easy for them anymore. And the server would a substantially more "classic" experience.

And if you're worried about the problem of an entire server population start over at level 1, don't. I can tell you that I dove in fully on the first EQ progression server. It was a blast. It's like traffic, people find other routes when their familiar one gets over-congested. You start leveling in places like Qeynos sewers, LFay, CT, Kedge, The Hole, etc. Porting becomes a valuable group asset. The most fun you can have in this game is with a dedicated leveling group where gear is statless, mobs are tough, and high level players are rare enough that you can't rely on finding one to bail you out.

[Ravager]

This really should be highlighted more. A relatively small group of people are monopolizing a major portion of the server's content. And they're doing it in a way that actively discourages me from wanting to participate.

I mostly want to raid to re-experience the raiding content, which is the point of this server as I understand it. I'd be happy to tag along without any chance at getting gear. But the current raid scene simply isn't classic. I stumbled on a Sev raid while running to CoM, so I decided to watch. The dragon died in like 15 seconds. There's just nothing to experience there for me. There never was anything new as I've raided all this content before, and in the current state there isn't even anything nostalgic. Plus, it seems like a lot of the people are dicks, given that they allow the training strats. It's just not worth it to run out there and watch a dragon die that fast, even if I were in on the loot. I can't be the only one here who feels like that.

A wipe would solve a lot of problems. The content would become available again. A lot of the dicks that like to monopolize content as a form of PVP would leave, because it wouldn't be easy for them anymore. And the server would a substantially more "classic" experience.

And if you're worried about the problem of an entire server population start over at level 1, don't. I can tell you that I dove in fully on the first EQ progression server. It was a blast. It's like traffic, people find other routes when their familiar one gets over-congested. You start leveling in places like Qeynos sewers, LFay, CT, Kedge, The Hole, etc. Porting becomes a valuable group asset. The most fun you can have in this game is with a dedicated leveling group where gear is statless, mobs are tough, and high level players are rare enough that you can't rely on finding one to bail you out.

Wipe wouldn't solve anything. All the people who monopolize the content would welcome a wipe so they can monopolize it all over again. The problem is limited content and a higher than normal amount of people who have no qualms about playing this game as a full time job.

Not to mention that this is a color by numbers server where it's known on how do get from point A to point C without the bother of stopping at point B. A wipe wouldn't make things any harder on the people who know all the tricks to bypass the grind. It was only a couple of days when the first level 50 showed up after the Red Server launch. This is why server firsts here don't mean much because it comes down to who can take a week off work when new content rolls out and gets lucky with latency in the race to the target.

[Tayy]

How does a guild that brags about downing VP dragons in seconds insist that the only way to do VP is to train trash around until they can get the dragon they want and pull it.

On live my guild killed the trash and moved around killing the dragons in VP. It took longer, it had its hiccups but if you claim you have skill then lets see. TMO can go left, IB can go right and you should both be able to avoid one another.

[Orruar]

How does a guild that brags about downing VP dragons in seconds insist that the only way to do VP is to train trash around until they can get the dragon they want and pull it.

On live my guild killed the trash and moved around killing the dragons in VP. It took longer, it had its hiccups but if you claim you have skill then lets see. TMO can go left, IB can go right and you should both be able to avoid one another.

Have you led at least 300 VP raids? If not, then you aren't sufficiently experienced to have a valid opinion on this topic.

[Daldaen]

The problem with a wipe is the players who are left on the outside now are almost guaranteed to be left on the outside after the wipe too. Primarily because they aren't neckbeardy enough.

Those players currently locking down the raid scene, are the same ones who would sit on Manastone and Guise camps for 18 hours straight and then transfer them off to their guildmate who would sit on the camp for 18 hours straight.

It would leave everyone who thought the wipe would solve all their problems very discouraged. Some people may jump up from their current status of being left on the outside, to being a poopsockerrs themselves but they will need a huge time commitment. And some who are already those who are monopolizing may leave when they don't want to put in the time starting over.

However it will not fix the underlying issue of two factions of playtime. Those who are willing to put in 50+ hours a week Poopsocking and staring at a wall and those who aren't.

[Ravager]

How does a guild that brags about downing VP dragons in seconds insist that the only way to do VP is to train trash around until they can get the dragon they want and pull it.

On live my guild killed the trash and moved around killing the dragons in VP. It took longer, it had its hiccups but if you claim you have skill then lets see. TMO can go left, IB can go right and you should both be able to avoid one another.

Who wants to waste their time playing a game?

[Orruar]

Have you ever led a raid?

Having an opinion on matter means that on some level you have a basic understanding of the subject material in which you base your opinion on. Having led a raid would be a good qualifier. Maybe even zoning into VP a single time would even be a good start before commenting on the manner in which the content is engaged.

Forumquest tip: If you are going to move the goalposts, put at least 3-4 filler replies in between so it's harder to recognize. When you start backpedaling so quickly, it's too obvious.

[Tayy]

Have you led at least 300 VP raids? If not, then you aren't sufficiently experienced to have a valid opinion on this topic.

I have been involved in numerous raids in VP on live yes. Next question?

[Ravager]

I have been involved in numerous raids in VP on live yes. Next question?

I think he was being ironic because of Unbrella's remarks.

[Basenji]

Wipe wouldn't solve anything. All the people who monopolize the content would welcome a wipe so they can monopolize it all over again. The problem is limited content and a higher than normal amount of people who have no qualms about playing this game as a full time job.

Not to mention that this is a color by numbers server where it's known on how do get from point A to point C without the bother of stopping at point B. A wipe wouldn't make things any harder on the people who know all the tricks to bypass the grind. It was only a couple of days when the first level 50 showed up after the Red Server launch. This is why server firsts here don't mean much because it comes down to who can take a week off work when new content rolls out and gets lucky with latency in the race to the target.


Yes, there will always be a group of players who win the race. That's the nature of contested content. But the situation you describe is still orders of magnitude more classic than the current environment.

Really, the server needs to wipe every 2 years. This one, or new one for that purpose, I don't care. The inflation oriented nature of these games makes wiping the server the only want you can create any semblance of balance and consistency.

[Orruar]

Who wants to waste their time playing a game?

Welcome to PoopsockQuest, where it's totally fine to wait around for hours for a dragon to spawn, but we'll be damned if we're going to take 30 minutes to clear some trash before zerging down that dragon. And we're all super skilled, but we're going to use 50 people to kill mobs that don't really need more than 20.

[Orruar]

I have been involved in numerous raids in VP on live yes. Next question?

300 raids in VP on P99 between the hours of 4am and 8am is the qualifier for having a valid opinion on this topic.

[Ravager]

Yes, there will always be a group of players who win the race. That's the nature of contested content. But the situation you describe is still orders of magnitude more classic than the current environment.

Really, the server needs to wipe every 2 years. This one, or new one for that purpose, I don't care. The inflation oriented nature of these games makes wiping the server the only want you can create any semblance of balance and consistency.

It wouldn't be more classic for the casual player who logs on once in a while to group with some friends which makes up a larger player base than the endgame raiders. The majority of players don't even have a level 60 character yet.

[Ella`Ella]

600 raids in VP on P99 between the hours of 4am and 8am is the qualifier for having any opinion on this topic.

Ftfy, casual scum!

[Frieza_Prexus]

I can't speak to the rest of your argument but this part is like saying we shouldn't criminalize bank robbing because the bank robbers would then have incentive to rob banks to pay for their lawyers, who defend them from bank robbing charges.

Not entirely. Increasing the penalties will incentivize further abuse of the process unless it is severely refined.

Class C currently has an ultimatum to "work out minor problems." A good portion of these are indeed worked out internally, but only because the "reward" for petitioning is minor in comparison. As the damage to your competition increases, the incentive to petition, no matter the cause, rises as well.

Currently, a petition risks annoying the GMs. It's often not worth it for minor offenses because it'll maybe result in a mob or two. However, when your competition would be banned for several weeks at a time, it becomes extremely worth it to manufacture and fabricate offenses. It's been done before, and it will most certainly be incentivized under the proposed system unless there are serious changes in the petition process.

[Basenji]

It wouldn't be more classic for the casual player who logs on once in a while to group with some friends which makes up a larger player base than the endgame raiders. The majority of players don't even have a level 60 character yet.

Really? I think it would make the most difference for exactly those players. I remember digging dangerously deep into Blackburrow in the early teens with two friends so I could get a Runed Totem staff. You can't really experience that here, or any proxy of it. There's too much cheap gear that's too good. The server is too inflated. It would actually make less of a difference to the raiders, for exactly the reasons to describe.

[Ravager]

Really? I think it would make the most difference for exactly those players. I remember digging dangerously deep into Blackburrow in the early teens with two friends so I could get a Runed Totem staff. You can't really experience that here, or any proxy of it. There's too much cheap gear that's too good. The server is too inflated. It would actually make less of a difference to the raiders, for exactly the reasons to describe.

If I was a level 40 who's only been playing once a week for the last 2 years I'd probably be pretty pissed to log on one day to find my chars missing and wouldn't come back. Only a minority of players log on to these boards with any kind of regularity too. A wipe would completely blindside the majority of the player base.

[Basenji]

Oh, right. Good point. A second server with an express cyclical wipe schedule is definitely the way to go. And with that, I'm going to bow out of this thread. That's a different discussion than policing the raid scene here, so we're just derailing at this point.

Also, my account is 2 years old. I have a level 43 bard and a level 35 SK on this server (yes, both hybrids). I generally only play in the cold weather months and my playtime is already starting to taper off this season. I'm exactly the player you describe, and I'm fully in favor of a wipe. And frankly, it's because I barely play that I don't care if I lose all my stuff.

[Ravager]

Oh, right. Good point. A second server with an express cyclical wipe schedule is definitely the way to go. And with that, I'm going to bow out of this thread. That's a different discussion than policing the raid scene here, so we're just derailing at this point.

Also, my account is 2 years old. I have a level 43 bard and a level 35 SK on this server (yes, both hybrids). I generally only play in the cold weather months and my playtime is already starting to taper off this season. I'm exactly the player you describe, and I'm fully in favor of a wipe. And frankly, it's because I barely play that I don't care if I lose all my stuff.

I'd be in favor of something like that. As far as derailing this thread, discussions like this never amount to anything. The staff's gonna do what the staff's gonna do. It's in the wrong forum at any rate.

[August]

Surely this is hyperbole, and you realize some simply raid for fun, literally for the fun of group play? Honestly, I'd raid even if I never got a single item drop, ever. It really is a valid gaming goal, the experience rather than the progress derived.

Are you a pumpkin?

[skipdog]

This is silly, because it penalizes a guild more for being around for a long time. That just doesn't make sense to me.

[Ravager]

Disband all guilds. Problem solved.

[SCB]

Permanently ban accounts involved in multiple infractions.

Problem will solve itself.

[Clark]

Dumb idea.

Especially considering over half the suspensions are completely ridiculous and overturned.

[Eliseus]

I don't know much about the raid scene, but from what you guys all say, they have it lucky here. Not only in most MMOs and including classic Everquest, some of the continuing grief in the end game scene and breaking of the rules would result in your accounts being banned by now. Not really relevant to what the OP is requesting, but kind of funny considering the constant rule breaking without real punishment.