Isn't there a better way to distribute raid loot? If not which is most fair?

[Rayzor84]

It currently seems like the raid loot systems in place all favor a small circle of members.

DKP favors those who have the ability to be on all the time, anytime, to accumulate points and repeatedly win gear.

Attendance works pretty much the same way but can also be skewed on the whim of the leader.

Loot council can become a problem if certain members become favored over others, in which case they receive loot while other members raid basically for nothing.

I understand every leader has their own inside crew that gets loot priority as well as epic help priority. The problem is that alot of people can't make all the raids due to life obligations, but we still do make a good amount of them and hope for gear upgrades. As an example, I've received one pair of planar gloves in over a month of raiding in which I made 4/5 raids (before the raid tines were changed to a time I basically almost never am able to make). I've had people with equal attendance of the same class receive multiple items in a row while I was given something that was rotting.

What's the best system to resolve this? As it stands I'm going to end up level 60 with one planar piece, old world gear, and under 10k in the bank easily especially with some high end spell purchases.

[Erati]

www.takenguild.com

our DKP system has been going strong now for 2 years

[Kreylyn]

It currently seems like the raid loot systems in place all favor a small circle of members.

DKP favors those who have the ability to be on all the time, anytime, to accumulate points and repeatedly win gear.

Attendance works pretty much the same way but can also be skewed on the whim of the leader.

Loot council can become a problem if certain members become favored over others, in which case they receive loot while other members raid basically for nothing.

I understand every leader has their own inside crew that gets loot priority as well as epic help priority. The problem is that alot of people can't make all the raids due to life obligations, but we still do make a good amount of them and hope for gear upgrades. As an example, I've received one pair of planar gloves in over a month of raiding in which I made 4/5 raids (before the raid tines were changed to a time I basically almost never am able to make). I've had people with equal attendance of the same class receive multiple items in a row while I was given something that was rotting.

What's the best system to resolve this? As it stands I'm going to end up level 60 with one planar piece, old world gear, and under 10k in the bank easily especially with some high end spell purchases.

Play solo... run pugs, declare your loot policy up front.

That's the only loot distro your gonna see that's "fair" and gets you your desired goal.

Krey

[YendorLootmonkey]

What's the best system to resolve this?

Pretending you're a chick and cybering your guild leader.

[Rayzor84]

Play solo... run pugs, declare your loot policy up front.

That's the only loot distro your gonna see that's "fair" and gets you your desired goal.

Krey

I suppose that's an option, it seems like it'd be hard to run a raid with a pug though...

[Kreylyn]

I suppose that's an option, it seems like it'd be hard to run a raid with a pug though...

Yes, it's hard to run a raid. This is why the loot systems you don't like are used. It's fairest in general for everyone based upon the group's goals.

Unfortunately, your goals do not match that of the groups in the timeline you prefer.

So... make it happen. ;p

Krey

[Valrok]

I have been on many sides of this fence in the years I have been playing mass multiplayer games. Generally it is a good idea to think of the guild as a whole before you think of any individual member and make decisions based on what the guild needs to be successful.
The guild over time accumulates a stockpile of loot and eventually begins gearing alts and non raiding members of the guild. If you are online and playing during the vast majority of these raids then you will by default generally gear your character out simply from no one else being able to use the gear or already having better.

Lets use the gear from plane of hate for instance. You run into Hate once every week or two for a solid year and do nothing but clear trash. Months in you already have most of the members that can obtain usable gear from Hate geared to the tits. You continue to show up and pieces continue to drop so you eventually gear up because no one is there to obtain the loot anyhow with the exception of alts. This is where the member takes priority and gains the drops he needs if he is a casual raider and still has slots to fill.

DKP being passed down from main to their alt and things of this nature can absolutely hinder a casual raiding member of a guild from progressing very fast though. I quit participating in DKP many years ago.

This has just been my experience. I play the game to have a good time and to enjoy the game and people that I play with. The gear is a bi-product of that.

[Thulack]

DKP work the best. You put forth the most time to helping the guild advance you get more chances to buy loot. Seems simple enough to me.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

When Thott made the DKP system, it was to eliminate guild bullshit, and to basically cut off at the root the Heather system which previously was the norm in most guild. I was in <Heathers> back in 99-2000, so I can give you the way that worked.

The Heather system is, Heather runs the guild, and Heather, Heather, and Heather are officers. Heather, Heather, Heather, Heather, and that other shaman, what's her name... or right, Heather, are loot officers. Heather, Heather, Heather, heather, Heather, Heather, Heather, Heather, Heather, and Heather were senior members. These people formed the "Council of Heathers." Using basic common sense, and totally mainly being interested in fairness but also sometimes you have to think about other stuff too, Heathers decided who got what. Usually, loot went to another Heather, duh.

The dkp protocols for this 16 year old elf simulator are well established. DKP eliminates the Heather system. Guilds who tell you they have a "better" system than dkp are trying to fuck a stranger in the ass.

[Cecily]

I know I encouraged you to make this thread and all, but you sound super paranoid about inner circles. Loot distribution in IB (sorry Rampage) and TMO, although loot council, goes to who deserves it and put in time. We both have extensive systems to track contribution and the council uses that to make an informed decision on who deserves it. Yes, it's subjective. Yes, it has it's down sides. Yes, you're being overly worried about not getting pixels and that screams loot whore to me which could turn into an amusingly ironic self fulfilling prophecy.

tl;dr: Guilds that lack fair loot practices will get a bad reputation for doing so and be mercilessly ridiculed for it.

[cbozeman]

DKP doesn't reward skill, and never has, and never will. That's it biggest short-coming.

There's a reason all the best WOW guilds (and FF14 guilds for that matter) use loot council; because the best loot needs to be in the hands of the best players if you expect to advance.

That said... you don't have this problem in Project 1999, since you'll be stuck in an expansion for years at a time - maybe forever! So all the baddies can rely on DKP and know they'll eventually get whatever they want.

Subjective loot councils are garbage by the way. SK Gaming did a YouTube interview back in the World of Warcraft Tier 10 raiding days (Icecrown Citadel), where one of their officers was saying, "Perhaps one person stood in something and got hit with it 2, or maybe 3 times in a fight... that would probably disqualify them from getting the loot."

Everything else was expected:

* Expected to be at each raid.
* Expected to be on time.
* Expected to have all consumables ready to go.
* Expected to be pushing max DPS / healing efficiency / tanking.

If you want a truly fair system, you need an objective loot council that scours through the combat log after every fight / during every fight and qualifies / disqualifies people based on their performance. Attendance, etc. should all be a given.

[Valrok]

It sounds like some greedy inner circles have jaded some folks from ever trusting them in other guilds.

[Erydan Ouragan]

I'm not really concerned about loot itself, i'm more concerned about being taken for a bitch.

The way i see it, leaders and officers of raiding guilds are like the CEOs and boards of companies. They go in with this official tone "our distribution system promotes fair use and fairness of the fair while simultaneously offering the best return to ratio on the investment of the investing parties, according to the regulation of actives and blah blah blah".

The reality is that they don't give a fuck. They're in it for themselves and their little clique. They sit in the officer channels, rolling around in platinum, caressing their epics and crowns of rile while laughing at their members behind their backs.

Their end goal is loot and to obtain it, they need more than just their little group of friends, so that's where the members come in. How many of you have ever grouped with the leaders and/or officers? Raiding guilds are often portrayed as teams, when in reality, it's run like a company. You are the workers, they are the bosses. That's why they never hang out with you, group with you, or even talk to you. You're that worker they see passing by when you arrive to clock in for your shift while they're going out for a round of golf.

They hold nothing but contempt and disgust for you at worst, indifference at best. If they could reach their loot goals without you, be absolutely certain that they would never even acknowledge your existence, for their world is limited to themselves and their close friends.

The rest of you are tools, a means to an end.

[zanderklocke]

DKP tends to sort itself out. Obviously, people who show up the most often will have the most points to spend. However, people that don't have as much time can still bank points and get the occasional item. That's how I got my Cloak of Piety and red dragon scales.

However, the bulk of my items were from farming on my own since I can't always log on for a raid.

[Eldon]

I'm not really concerned about loot itself, i'm more concerned about being taken for a bitch.

The way i see it, leaders and officers of raiding guilds are like the CEOs and boards of companies. They go in with this official tone "our distribution system promotes fair use and fairness of the fair while simultaneously offering the best return to ratio on the investment of the investing parties, according to the regulation of actives and blah blah blah".

The reality is that they don't give a fuck. They're in it for themselves and their little clique. They sit in the officer channels, rolling around in platinum, caressing their epics and crowns of rile while laughing at their members behind their backs.

Their end goal is loot and to obtain it, they need more than just their little group of friends, so that's where the members come in. How many of you have ever grouped with the leaders and/or officers? Raiding guilds are often portrayed as teams, when in reality, it's run like a company. You are the workers, they are the bosses. That's why they never hang out with you, group with you, or even talk to you. You're that worker they see passing by when you arrive to clock in for your shift while they're going out for a round of golf.

They hold nothing but contempt and disgust for you at worst, indifference at best. If they could reach their loot goals without you, be absolutely certain that they would never even acknowledge your existence, for their world is limited to themselves and their close friends.

The rest of you are tools, a means to an end.
http://i.imgur.com/N7OJVxB.jpg

[Rayzor84]

I know I encouraged you to make this thread and all, but you sound super paranoid about inner circles. Loot distribution in IB (sorry Rampage) and TMO, although loot council, goes to who deserves it and put in time. We both have extensive systems to track contribution and the council uses that to make an informed decision on who deserves it. Yes, it's subjective. Yes, it has it's down sides. Yes, you're being overly worried about not getting pixels and that screams loot whore to me which could turn into an amusingly ironic self fulfilling prophecy.

tl;dr: Guilds that lack fair loot practices will get a bad reputation for doing so and be mercilessly ridiculed for it.

I'm not really sure that desiring a piece of gear off hate trash mobs more often than once every 4-6 weeks qualifies as loot whoring.

[Ishbu]

Not to nag, but some of the sentiment in the OP is why all new games are instanced with 100% spawns rates and guarenteed drops for all, because for some reason the idea that investing more time means you get more back isnt fair to a lot of people.

DKP is clearly the best way. If some people cant play as much as others due to other commitments, why on earth should they get equal reward? That doesnt make any sense. If anything, you should be happy that you will have gear goals extending the fun for your character longer than the people who got everything quickly. It is a game you should want to play after all.

[Videri]

As long as all guild members are treated as equals, it is possible to divide loot fairly over time.

You can go "round robin." Suppose a bard item drops. All 4 bards roll and Bard 1 wins the item. Next bard item, the other 3 bards roll and Bard 2 gets an item. Next item, the remaining 2 bards roll; and the 4th item goes to the remaining bard. After that, all 4 /random again, and so on. Or, even better, carry on in the same order. That allows you to continue the even distribution across raids. If Bard 3 doesn't show up to the next raid, he or she gets skipped.

If you show up for more raids, you get to roll more; and over time, you get more loot. If you roll unlucky for long enough, you still eventually get loot, as others will no longer need the items that drop.

Another alternative: the Suicide Kings system (http://www.wowwiki.com/Suicide_Kings).

[Guybrush]

www.takenguild.com

our DKP system has been going strong now for 2 years

Hmmm, I seem to remember a certain half elf warrior who got all the loot in taken.
I guess that prophet has been lost to us however...

[toolshed]

After playing DKP all through EQ, I had an experience with a "loot council" in my first serious WoW raiding guild. It was awful. The corruption and loot distribution was so much drama all the time, and it just sucked putting in all that work and not knowing if you would be able to get your favorite item.

[arsenalpow]

to each their own, we've had loot council in BDA for 4+ years and our members are happy with it

[Cecily]

DKP always felt completely self centered and greedy. It felt that way on live. It absolutely was that way in FE. I don't care for it. I spend too much time plotting and manipulating the system in my favor when I'd rather just play and put in for an item occasionally.

[Llodd]

to each their own, we've had loot council in BDA for 4+ years and our members are happy with it

I doubt that very much. Even when done as best as possible there are always people that are at the vey least indifferent towards it.

DKP always felt completely self centered and greedy. It felt that way on live. It absolutely was that way in FE. I don't care for it. I spend too much time plotting and manipulating the system in my favor when I'd rather just play and put in for an item occasionally.

Which just says more about you rather than the DKP system itself :eek:

[Tanthallas]

DKP always felt completely self centered and greedy. It felt that way on live. It absolutely was that way in FE. I don't care for it. I spend too much time plotting and manipulating the system in my favor when I'd rather just play and put in for an item occasionally.

Then just play and put in for an item occasionally with your DKP....

[Daldaen]

DKP always felt completely self centered and greedy. It felt that way on live. It absolutely was that way in FE. I don't care for it. I spend too much time plotting and manipulating the system in my favor when I'd rather just play and put in for an item occasionally.

DKP was the only way for me to actually plan out my gear and prioritize.

Certain items are vastly more valuable to me than others. And I would save DKP for them and spend it accordingly. With a Loot Council, I can't really explain that other than in the single tell I send the people. If the Druid VP Robe weren't tradeable I would save all my DKP for it and burn it all on that, for example. Would abstain from plenty of other drops just to make sure I am guaranteed that drop if it drops.

DKP Systems are also nice because you have a finite amount you can work with so you can't hoard all the loots. Some (retarded) systems would award the item to the person with the highest DKP total at a fixed price. These players ended up being able to win entire expansions of BIS without being unthroned from their top DKP slot. But the free-bid systems without fixed amounts worked pretty well in my experience.

A little oversight to prevent complete free-market retardation was nice (IE preventing BIS Daggers from going to rangers, and BIS aggro weapons from going to rogues, etc.) and a little bit of a progression focus when expansions released (warrior MTs get priority), and DKP systems work well.

[Juryiel]

I tend to prefer DKP but have been in guilds with all sorts of systems and as long as the people are good, things turn out fair. So don't join crappy guilds. As far as being with someone for a month, at that stage you really don't have a good sense as to who deserves what. Maybe you were with them for a month but the person getting over you was with them for 5 and nothing dropped for him. To me it sounds like you are just being very impatient and seeing only your own limited perspective. By 1 month in a guild i have 0 expectations (though I often get stuff). By 4 months I probably shoudl have gotten a couple of pieces of something, etc, and have begun to develop a sense of who deserves what. By 9 months to a year i basically know if someone is getting things that doesn't deserve them. At 1 month there is no way I can know who contributed what and who deserves what, I barely know the guild.

Also, this server is unique in that progression is super slow (4 years of Kunark) so unless the guilds you're joining are giving planar loot to alts over new full members, you should not be running into this issue. The 'mains' in the lead of these guilds will have gotten planar loot long, long ago, and be mostly raiding to help others.

[arsenalpow]

I doubt that very much. Even when done as best as possible there are always people that are at the vey least indifferent towards it.

Doubt away. We're happy with our system.

[Cecily]

Then just play and put in for an item occasionally with your DKP....

No Sloan. It was always playing ALOT to get the DKP in the first place and then plotting when an item I wanted dropped. I didn't spend 50 dkp on Mrylokar Legs or win the DHB that Shinko really wanted by chance.

The difference is motivation. DKP focuses motivation on self advancement while council motivates players more towards guild advancement. Upgrading the guild as a whole far outweighs allowing individuals free reign to shout, "MINE!"

[kaev]

You hear stories about corrupt leadership fucking up loot distribution regardless of system. But DKP is the only system where I've heard stories of corrupt membership fucking up loot distribution (i.e. all the monks get together and agree on a loot rotation so they avoid competing vs. one another on class loots, thus they all can hoard DKP to bid for all/all gear.)

I'll always prefer loot council. I have no issue with holding leadership accountable, that's gonna be necessary under any system, but if I need to be suspicious of the entire guild membership I'm looking for a new guild.

[Tanthallas]

No Sloan. It was always playing ALOT to get the DKP in the first place and then plotting when an item I wanted dropped. I didn't spend 50 dkp on Mrylokar Legs or win the DHB that Shinko really wanted by chance.

The difference is motivation. DKP focuses motivation on self advancement while council motivates players more towards guild advancement. Upgrading the guild as a whole far outweighs allowing individuals free reign to shout, "MINE!"

Im not sure you are making an argument against DKP seeing as the same may and does apply to loot council. If someone has a MINE attitude, they will have that attitude either way and try to manipulate either system. The primary reason for straight DKP as far as I saw it was that FE was brand new and without a strong base. In order to build trust in the guild and not have any semblance of favoritism in loot it was necessary to have a system that did not rely on anyone's whims or interpretations. You have to remember that I didn't get a piece of loot for about 6 months after FE formed, right?

I always said that a loot council system would be more efficient if all of its requirements were there, but your argument here seems to be more focused on your personality rather than the need for either system.

<3

[Kadron]

In Anonymous (anonymous.guildlaunch.com), we are a casual raid guild. We use a zero DKP system to make sure everyone has a chance at obtaining loot. You collect X amount per raid and per harder target (epic mobs and soon class R mobs). If an item drops, the person with the most DKP gets to receive the item and loses ALL their DKP. Now more casual players get to loot other items that drop. You don't have to make every raid and have huge numbers to get loot.

Now you might say, "What about the more hardcore that show up all the time?" Well, they will get geared faster, so now they can stock pile that DKP and wait for that Cloak of Flames or BCG to drop and spend it then.
There is no perfect DKP system but we try to make sure everyone gets something.

[Rampage]

Pretending you're a chick and cybering your guild leader.

cybering?

MUCH worse has been done on this server, I know that for certain.

[Cecily]

The whole appeal of DKP is having control over when you get your items. That's where I'm going w/ the MINE thing. It's less important than having the right stuff on the right people. Then again we're in Kunark and the gear is all junk. It honestly doesn't matter what you do. You are right though, my argument is completely based off my personality and my opinions about the system. Logically arguing about the merits of one form of elfsim loot distribution being better than another is just burning brain cells. Either works fine. I choose instead the emotional argument that DKP feels greedy to me and makes me cutthroat towards my guildmates. I don't like it.

[Gimp]

I can usually guess with about 90% accuracy who's going to get what loot when it drops. Every member from the leader on down to the low % raiders knows who puts in sufficient work and deserves the item at that time. It's been a really fair process for the time I've been in a guild with a loot council.

[DrKvothe]

I never understood why a straight up /random, conducted either by leadership or actual players, isn't considered fair. Show up to twice as many raids, get twice as many items. Keeps from zerg recruiting when senior members understand they'll be losing items to the new guys, but encourages participation because every raid could be the raid you get your item!

"I've spent more time at this camp so I get first dibs" has never been the way we determine 6-man loot, right?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Yes, you're being overly worried about not getting pixels and that screams loot whore to me which could turn into an amusingly ironic self fulfilling prophecy.


Spoken like a true Heather.

[Tanthallas]

Its not about control over your items. It is not about YOU period. You are turning the DKP system into something it is not, or I should say giving it a reason for being that was not its reason for being.

The reason for our DKP system, and most others I would assume, was not to cater to individual members desire to have control over what they get and when they get it - individuals will always be contending with others who want the same control they will never have because of that very competition. The primary reason is to have a system of loot distribution that, once constructed, moves according to its own logic and does not rely on the decisions of a few to distribute anything. The rules are set in stone, and it goes.

Now if people want to collude amongst their classes and deflate the value of their class items, let them. If every class colludes it would make the deflation that occurs in all class specific values irrelevant.

[khanable]

There is pros and cons to all systems. I greatly prefer loot council systems that use metrics to back up their decisions; metrics such as attendance percentage, DKP, how recently a player has been awarded another item, etc. It allows players that put in the time to get the items they want while also keeping the progression of the guild as a whole in check. That's simply my taste, however. I'm sure other systems work perfectly fine for groups of players.

[Alanus]

On progression server (The Combine), in Realm of Insanity, we used an award system. It worked well because we were only in each expansion for a month or two (since we would unlock the next one pretty quickly), so we needed the most bang for our buck. Never heard complaining about loot, either. I am guessing being in each expansion for a month or two made most people not care too much about the current expansions loot.

On live, we used a DKP system where you could bid up to 2x your points, and if you bid at least half the max bid, you would roll your bid. The item could would be half the max bid. I.e. if Item X drops, and you bid 200 points, and someone else bids 500, you wouldn't roll since 500 / 2 = 250 and then the item cost would be 250. If you bid 300, then you would roll 300 while the person who bid 500 would roll 500. Highest roll won and had the item's cost subtracted from their dkp. It worked well and if you were willing to bid more, you had a better chance at the item. The downside was, our first Aten kill, a ranger who was hoarding DKP won the neck quest piece, and I don't think he was not ready to blow all his DKP on it and he never logged in again after that. But I suppose you have that possibility with any loot system.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I never understood why a straight up /random, conducted either by leadership or actual players, isn't considered fair. Show up to twice as many raids, get twice as many items.

ROLEPLAY SCENARIO

Guild A gets a shot at Trakanon once every few months due to the raid scene on the server. Donal's BP drops, straight up /random happens, the cleric who logs in once a month for raids happens to win the BP over clerics who have been raiding consistently with the guild. In this exercise, you will roleplay a guild leader frantically trying to convince all those other clerics to remain with your guild and devising a new method of distributing high-value/high-rarity loot...

[Pan]

The one thing that I think is missing from this conversation is the question of:

"Fair" in one moment on one item vs. "fair" over time.

Arguably, there are very few single awards that are 100pct spot-on/perfect/accurate/fair...in that there's not a case to be made for that award to go to someone else in that moment.

However, irrespective of the system (DKP vs. loot council in this conversation), the more important question is the system working well (for you and everyone else) over time?

DKP can be buggered with. Loot councils can make bad decisions. That's just how it is. Mitigating the buggering and mistakes is really key to a robust, fair-over-time loot system.

All that said, if you (not the OP, particularly...just the reader) are the type of person who is gonna throw a fit about a single item/award and make it just painful for your guild to want to get and distribute loot, you might want to invest in a mirror and look there for problems before looking elsewhere.

Or, in other words, one of the major problems with most loot systems is the intrinsically, inherently greedy and entitled people. No matter how fair the system is, they'll always be victims. If you find yourself the *only* person constantly being victimized by loot awards, perhaps the problem is with you rather than the system.

[Nietche]

Pretending you're a chick and cybering your guild leader.

[ttime123]

I have been in both types and there are good and bad in both, you need to make up your mind whats the best of both and go in that type of guild. I'am sick and tired of the raiding, i have been doing it for 5 years in another mmo. I have came to 1999 to get away from it all, just realxing and having fun right now. Raiding can make people become nasty, and greedy.

[Scoresby]

DKP 2.0 i.e. EP/GP

http://www.epgpweb.com/help/system (http://www.epgpweb.com/help/system)

The math behind it is crazy elegant.

Basically, having a gigantic DKP pool doesn't mean you win everything, but it does mean you get the lion's share. As soon as lower members get a bone, you're back on top immediately. The more you show up, the less decay affects you (rewarding attendance). While decay also discourages hoarding, if you don't have anything worth spending it on no worries. You will never be passed in priority as long as you have good attendance. Ensuring hardcore raiders can still get what they most desire (just not the next 10 of those things).

[fastboy21]

One solution is to stop caring about loot. Then it won't matter how much you get or don't get. Then you'll have fun without worrying about pixels.

I realize that some folks would rather care about loot and be miserably stressed out over it...my solution isn't for you.

[Slayde]

This is the same argument as Capitalism vs. Communism. Both can be very good, or very bad. It depends on who is in charge. Ultimate power ultimately corrupts, and this server is rampant with it. So if you're looking for fair I would not start here. /2cents

[Tanthallas]

This is the same argument as Capitalism vs. Communism. Both can be very good, or very bad. It depends on who is in charge. Ultimate power ultimately corrupts, and this server is rampant with it. So if you're looking for fair I would not start here. /2cents

This isnt Sociology 101. A 'fair' system isnt the point. The point is constructing a system that has enough legitimacy to its members to be able to weather the storms that come with challenging (and rising to) the dominate power on THIS server. You can have a wonderful system of distributing loot - if you do not get any loot, it is irrelevant.

If you 'just want to have fun and not care about loot', I dont see how or why you feel like contributing to a thread about potential loot systems. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters to people who a loot system really matters to is being on top, i.e. getting enough loot to care.

Or the people who don't get enough loot for their members and devise a system that distributes it amongst their higher echelon.

[quido]

Motec you always have been and always will be a coattail-riding beta.

[Tanthallas]

Jeremy and Motec arguing on forums. I miss this.

[Clark]

http://www.nedhardy.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2013/april/kid_captions/funny_kid_captions_18.jpg

[wycca]

Some problems I've always had with DKP -

- You may have the best geared paladin on the server, but hey, your tank lineup isnt deep enough for AoW
- Little Sally can save up for that dream item she has always wanted, blow all of her dkp...and be running around with no ear slot and cloth armor
- Busy Jimmy who amassed 1k dkp years ago can come back and start taking items from members who helped keep the guild competitive the last 6 months
- Evil Monks can make pacts to bid low so they can win all/all items
- You may have a superstar cleric or two, but your other 5-8 clrs die to AE's and go oom fast

So yes, theoretically all of those problems are fixable. Theres so many ways to counter the negative parts of DKP. In the end, you put bandaid upon bandaid upon the entire system.

In the end, the best thing for guild progression is a data-driven loot council system. Which is why both TMO and IB run one (as well as a host of the top guilds on live did).

[radda]

i didnt read anything but vote zero-sum

[ArumTP]

My personal issues with DKP
-large un-ascend-ablely large DKP pools that can grow.

This is a problem that is more unique to P99 than in live. On live we had more and more new content and items to spend our points on. On here we stagnate, there isn't a new continuous flow of BiS items to go spend it on.

Its pretty easy to go full planar (and even sometimes full sky as well) but the next step VP/dragon/god loots is a point that people get locked out on. It becomes all you can spend it on, and you just never get it, so the dkp just piles up. Other toons in a guild end up in the same spot, and soon all you have is a guild force that needs nothing but that top tier loot, and no means to acquire it.

Pools get so large that DKP has no value, it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 1000 dkp if you got nothing to spend it on.

[fastboy21]

My personal issues with DKP
-large un-ascend-ablely large DKP pools that can grow.

This is a problem that is more unique to P99 than in live. On live we had more and more new content and items to spend our points on. On here we stagnate, there isn't a new continuous flow of BiS items to go spend it on.

Its pretty easy to go full planar (and even sometimes full sky as well) but the next step VP/dragon/god loots is a point that people get locked out on. It becomes all you can spend it on, and you just never get it, so the dkp just piles up. Other toons in a guild end up in the same spot, and soon all you have is a guild force that needs nothing but that top tier loot, and no means to acquire it.

Pools get so large that DKP has no value, it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 1000 dkp if you got nothing to spend it on.

The problem you describing is a function of playing on a static server, not a problem caused by dkp systems. If you cap your dkp hoarding rules, say at 100 dkp, you still have the exact same problem if there is no loot to spend it on anymore.

You'll see some of the hoarders tap into the dkp pools in velious to get some hot items first...but you'll be in the same boat in 3 years...or 5 years...or 7 years.

Its a static server. Loot eventually loses its meaning compared to live. There are a couple of exceptions, but by and large, this is the future if this server survives long enough to get there.

This is why I don't understand why there is so much loot loving on this server. In the end, even the best items in the game are going to be worth far far less than you could ever have imagined them being on live. You'd think this setup would lure the folks who love to play EQ for "non-loot" reasons---when the reality of p99 is that (at least it seems without knowing the data) most of the server is engaged in never ending attempts to acquire more loot.

I mean, to each their own. I'm obviously wrong (or at least in the minority) when it comes to how I play the game here. Its just surprising to me how many folks on p99 are playing so "hard-core" when they know the server isn't going anywhere after velious launch/patches. On live, we played that way because you had to maintain your advantage for the next expansion.

[ArumTP]

The problem you describing is a function of playing on a static server, not a problem caused by dkp systems. If you cap your dkp hoarding rules, say at 100 dkp, you still have the exact same problem if there is no loot to spend it on anymore.

You'll see some of the hoarders tap into the dkp pools in velious to get some hot items first...but you'll be in the same boat in 3 years...or 5 years...or 7 years.

Its a static server. Loot eventually loses its meaning compared to live. There are a couple of exceptions, but by and large, this is the future if this server survives long enough to get there.

This is why I don't understand why there is so much loot loving on this server. In the end, even the best items in the game are going to be worth far far less than you could ever have imagined them being on live. You'd think this setup would lure the folks who love to play EQ for "non-loot" reasons---when the reality of p99 is that (at least it seems without knowing the data) most of the server is engaged in never ending attempts to acquire more loot.

I mean, to each their own. I'm obviously wrong (or at least in the minority) when it comes to how I play the game here. Its just surprising to me how many folks on p99 are playing so "hard-core" when they know the server isn't going anywhere after velious launch/patches. On live, we played that way because you had to maintain your advantage for the next expansion.

True, there is no endgame. Nothing to do when you hit 60 other than raid to get BiS. Get bored cause you are all geared up or can't get geared up, and up rolling another guy to 60, same thing happens. Thats why we always want more and more loot.

[Ishbu]

Im surprised to hear of some of these issues considering I thought they had simple solutions back when I ran a guild.

Our DKP system had a cap, once you hit the cap, you cant earn anymore DKP, so I suggest buying an item if youve been hoarding it. On top of that, attendence was tracked so if you werent making X% of the raids, your dkp was weighted accordingly, so you couldnt just hit the cap and skip all raids but the one for the item you want.

Problems solved.

[Llodd]

Doubt away. We're happy with our system.

Oh I'm sure you and the majority are. Personally I don't have any problems with well run loot councils. . But unless you're all robots then you will never have 100% happiness from all members. Saying otherwise is being blindly ignorant at best, fallacious at worst.

[Danth]

Fairness is what you make of it; if everyone involved goes home satisfied, then the system's fair. Different people like different systems, nothing new there.

My take: You want to pay me a form of currency for showing up when scheduled and following your orders? Sounds like a job if you ask me. If you want an employee, the only currency I'll accept is dollars. Imaginary DKP currency doesn't cut it. I won't join any guild that uses it and will immediately disband from a guild which transitions to it. Rather than turning my video game into a second job, I prefer awarding items to whoever most deserves them, or even straight /random over pseudo currency. Of course I don't much like raiding in the first place, and DKP systems tend to be designed to encourage folks into raiding more often than they otherwise would, leading to my distaste for those types of systems. I've nothing against folks who like DKP systems, but they aren't for me.

Danth

[SCB]

Rather than turning my video game into a second job, I prefer awarding items to whoever most deserves them, or even straight /random over pseudo currency.


DKP awards those who most deserve it in EverQuest, because to "fight" you press Q and stand somewhere for X minutes. The only factor of "skill" in raiding with the huge guilds and 30-second 32k mob fights we have is attendance/batphoning.

That's why non-instanced raiding is so unattractive.

[Danth]

...The only factor of "skill" in raiding with the huge guilds and 30-second 32k mob fights we have is attendance/batphoning.

That's why non-instanced raiding is so unattractive.

You can take out the "non-instanced" part and it's still accurate for me; I dislike raiding as a mode of gameplay, period. I'll do it once in a blue moon but if I go on too many raids I rapidly get sick of it and quit logging in. Heck I haven't been on a raid since I think October. Guilds that use DKP tend to want to raid a lot (don't need a complicated loot system if you raid twice a month) so such guilds don't appeal to me. Of course I speak strictly for myself and I make no claims of there being an ultimate loot system...only what works or doesn't work for me.

Danth

[myriverse]

DKP awards those who most deserve it in EverQuest, because to "fight" you press Q and stand somewhere for X minutes. The only factor of "skill" in raiding with the huge guilds and 30-second 32k mob fights we have is attendance/batphoning.

That's why non-instanced raiding is so unattractive.
"Skill"/attendance is not necessarily what makes people deserving.

[dontbanpls]

Join Red if you want to be a part of the only 100% fair raid reward policy.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171751


<Fresh> is the only guild on either server that has fun as a top priority and it just so happens we are the only guild on either server with a transparent and fair loot system.

[kaev]

[stuff]

Thank you _____dontbanpls______________ for your unique and interesting contribution to this thread on the topic of _____loot distribution______________! We all deeply appreciate your profound and never before seen revelation that Red is the solution to any and all problems past, present, & future on Blue! Please stop at the awards table on your way out for your participation medal! Always remember that everybody's special here at Project1999!

[Teneran]

DKP doesn't reward skill, and never has, and never will. That's it biggest short-coming.

There's a reason all the best WOW guilds (and FF14 guilds for that matter) use loot council; because the best loot needs to be in the hands of the best players if you expect to advance.

That said... you don't have this problem in Project 1999, since you'll be stuck in an expansion for years at a time - maybe forever! So all the baddies can rely on DKP and know they'll eventually get whatever they want.

Subjective loot councils are garbage by the way. SK Gaming did a YouTube interview back in the World of Warcraft Tier 10 raiding days (Icecrown Citadel), where one of their officers was saying, "Perhaps one person stood in something and got hit with it 2, or maybe 3 times in a fight... that would probably disqualify them from getting the loot."

Everything else was expected:

* Expected to be at each raid.
* Expected to be on time.
* Expected to have all consumables ready to go.
* Expected to be pushing max DPS / healing efficiency / tanking.

If you want a truly fair system, you need an objective loot council that scours through the combat log after every fight / during every fight and qualifies / disqualifies people based on their performance. Attendance, etc. should all be a given.

Yea, after all <Afterlife> never really advanced in EQ after they implemented DKP ...

[fastboy21]

! Always remember that everybody's special here at Project1999!

Like snowflakes! :)

[dontbanpls]

Thank you _____dontbanpls______________ for your unique and interesting contribution to this thread on the topic of _____loot distribution______________! We all deeply appreciate your profound and never before seen revelation that Red is the solution to any and all problems past, present, & future on Blue! Please stop at the awards table on your way out for your participation medal! Always remember that everybody's special here at Project1999!

thanks bud i have 15 best in slot characters red is the best

[HalflingWarrior]

Yes, it has it's down sides. Yes, you're being overly worried about not getting pixels and that screams loot whore to me which could turn into an amusingly ironic self fulfilling prophecy.

tl;dr: Guilds that lack fair loot practices will get a bad reputation for doing so and be mercilessly ridiculed for it.


1) Nice victim-blaming here. How could it be a "self-fulfilling prophecy" when other people, the so called "loot council," are completely in charge?

2) A bad reputation? On P99? BAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. Reputation basically means NOTHING here; certainly relative to the importance of player/guild reputation on live.

[Cecily]

1) He's freaking out about (potentially) not getting loot. That's a classic loot whore personality trait. Loot whore pisses off loot council who skips that person over.
Prophecy fulfilled.

2) Reputation is everything. Who wants to be in BDA?

[cbozeman]

Yea, after all <Afterlife> never really advanced in EQ after they implemented DKP ...

I never said you can't have a great guild that will go places with DKP, I just said, look at all the very best guilds on nearly any MMO... its almost always loot council, and a very rigorous objective one at that.

By the way, did you know anyone from <Afterlife>? I'm trying to track down two people... I don't know for sure what their character names were there, but they went by Morden & Frostwave on Turalyon of the World of Warcraft server. They were two of my best officers in the guilds I led there.

[Troubled]

2) Reputation is everything. Who wants to be in BDA?

Everybody here hates everybody else. All guilds have a bad reputation.

[khanable]

Everybody here hates everybody else. All guilds have a bad reputation.

[Pint]

Everybody here hates everybody else. All guilds have a bad reputation.

This isn't in the least bit true, certain guilds have terrible reputations bc they consistently put their wants above others in every scenario they encounter and other guilds just have very shitty ppl running the show for them.

[Crom]

ROLEPLAY SCENARIO

Guild A gets a shot at Trakanon once every few months due to the raid scene on the server. Donal's BP drops, straight up /random happens, the cleric who logs in once a month for raids happens to win the BP over clerics who have been raiding consistently with the guild. In this exercise, you will roleplay a guild leader frantically trying to convince all those other clerics to remain with your guild and devising a new method of distributing high-value/high-rarity loot...

+1

This is what all loot systems try to prevent.

Most people want a system that rewards hard work, "Do the work get the reward".

[Fanguru]

Being part of the loot council sucks. You spend too much time worrying about who is going to complain and how to defuse drama, when you should be focusing on running your guild.

DKP puts everyone in charge of their own loot.

On such a top-heavy server, the benefits of gearing up key people are minor. EQ wasn't meant to be played with people full of BiS items. Everyone has so much gear for Kunark, and even in Velious most of the raid encounters can be done with that Kunark gear.

The only thing that promotes having key players full of BiS here is the cutthroat raid scene where a tiny advantage can help you leapfrog another guild.

[Rayzor84]

1) He's freaking out about (potentially) not getting loot. That's a classic loot whore personality trait. Loot whore pisses off loot council who skips that person over.
Prophecy fulfilled.

2) Reputation is everything. Who wants to be in BDA?

You keep talking about loot whore mentality but you are in a guild that's been raid suspended far too much trying to break raid rules for a little bit of loot.

Notsureifsrs

[drktmplr12]

Has no one suggested epgp?

[Orruar]

Being part of the loot council sucks. You spend too much time worrying about who is going to complain and how to defuse drama, when you should be focusing on running your guild.

I've seen way more complaints and drama in DKP systems than loot council. People constantly complaining about the DKP rules, thinking they should be changed, drama over that class-specific item that just went for 1 DKP (must be collusion!), etc. Now that's probably just that the DKP systems were worse run than the loot council system we had, but the point is that DKP doesn't defuse drama. A well-run system defuses drama.

[Orruar]

Yea, after all <Afterlife> never really advanced in EQ after they implemented DKP ...

How many expansions did AL finish first serverwide?

[Daldaen]

How many expansions did AL finish first serverwide?

Luclin and PoP?

They only even finished PoP because they neutered Quarm though. Rabble rabble.

[Teneran]

I never said you can't have a great guild that will go places with DKP, I just said, look at all the very best guilds on nearly any MMO... its almost always loot council, and a very rigorous objective one at that.

By the way, did you know anyone from <Afterlife>? I'm trying to track down two people... I don't know for sure what their character names were there, but they went by Morden & Frostwave on Turalyon of the World of Warcraft server. They were two of my best officers in the guilds I led there.

Well, you did say a guild can't progress with DKP (read your post). My point is, you can. My raiding guild on Live did DKP and we progressed quite well and there are a lot of other examples I'm sure. You prefer Loot Council, that's great, both can work.

Yes I do actually know someone who was in <Afterlife>. He didn't play with them in WoW though.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Some problems I've always had with DKP -

- You may have the best geared paladin on the server, but hey, your tank lineup isnt deep enough for AoW
- Little Sally can save up for that dream item she has always wanted, blow all of her dkp...and be running around with no ear slot and cloth armor
- Busy Jimmy who amassed 1k dkp years ago can come back and start taking items from members who helped keep the guild competitive the last 6 months
- Evil Monks can make pacts to bid low so they can win all/all items
- You may have a superstar cleric or two, but your other 5-8 clrs die to AE's and go oom fast

So yes, theoretically all of those problems are fixable. Theres so many ways to counter the negative parts of DKP. In the end, you put bandaid upon bandaid upon the entire system.

In the end, the best thing for guild progression is a data-driven loot council system. Which is why both TMO and IB run one (as well as a host of the top guilds on live did).

You sir are trying to fuck a stranger in the ass.

Each of your points are either bullshit, or easily fixable.

Bullshit points: if a guild raids regularly, that means it gets loot. Highly doubt any real world situation in which a paladin gets all the loots and the warriors are all still in crafted. Only way that -- and several of your other scenarios -- happens is if you got piss poor attendance, in which case you are not probably killing anything at all.

As to people taking breaks, or excessive dkp gaps, either you are ignorant of DKP or you are, as I said, trying to fuck a stranger in the ass.

1) It is the *norm* that if someone takes a break, their DKP gets frozen + reduced by a % until they are back in good standing. I have been in several DKP guilds, and never have I seen someone "come back from a break" and be allowed to bid on an item.
2) It is also the *norm* that DKP amounts are periodically adjusted so that new members are not permanently outclassed on bidding. Again, this is the norm, and is not mysterious. Everyone's DKP's get adjusted so that bidding is more competitive. No accumulating 10k DKP: it will just get scaled down during the adjustment, so might as well spend.
3) The problem of people conspiring to not bid against each other is obvious, unless you have a zerg guild with so many members you cannot keep track of the character of your guild members.

They are trying to fuck you in the ass, people. They are tryi8ng to say, they know best, and you can't be trusted to decide when and what you want for YOUR character.


5,4,3,2,1 until Cecily or another Heather guild says, "The fact you are so concerned makes me worry you are a loot whore."

I'm an enchanter. Have been since 99. I could play in cloth and cha/resist gear and be fine. Consider the source people. And consider, DKP is widely used with great success, but the most drama-oriented guilds hate it. Why?

Eliminates the power of the Heathers at the center. Heathers hate to lose power.

[Man0warr]

Biggest problem with DKP is it makes a lot of work for whoever is tasked with it's upkeep, burnout rate on those poor officers is high.

[Orruar]

Re: Sadre
^ You are crazy paranoid and overly obsessed with ass fucking.

The point was that DKP can be just as shady as loot council. No matter what system you use, you need good people running it to be effective. And when you have good people running the system, a metric-based loot council will be far more effective and allow the guild to progress faster, thus leading to more loots. There's a reason the majority of top guilds use some form of loot council. And any well run loot council system will have enough transparency to get over your ass fucking paranoia.

[Orruar]

Biggest problem with DKP is it makes a lot of work for whoever is tasked with it's upkeep, burnout rate on those poor officers is high.

To be fair, a well run loot council needs to keep track of a lot of data as well.

[maskedmelon]

DKP is inherently more "fair" to individuals because it objectively awards based on investment.

Loot Council is more well reasoned for a guild (not its members) because it prioritizes awards based on the needs of the collective entity over those of individual members. Top guilds employ it for this reason, not because they are moral arbiters of the pixel.

[Orruar]

Fairness is not some objective quality you can measure. As it is subjective, everyone has a differing notion of fairness. In that sense, loot council is more fair in the sense that it doesn't try to hide or deny the subjective nature of loot distribution.

[Erati]

one of the big things that turns me off from loot council is the 'Council vs You' mentality members take on when an item drop doesnt get awarded to THEM

It becomes a mind game and a targeted attack about why each member of the Council felt they didnt deserve the item over Person X. This becomes very personal for the wronged party who usually throws an entire laundry list of 'chores' they did to deserve the item. Constant reassurances that the member was 'close' to receiving the item is required, tho all hell to be paid will be present if the next one does not go his/her way.

Even after reassurances, and even after the council actually has plans to award the next drop similar to that wronged member, the member still usually becomes jaded and their interactions with loot council members outside of raiding or loot decisions become negatively charged as they feel 'anything they do is never enough for them'. Soon it becomes a point of contention where the next little thing that goes awry in the wronged parties mind usually means instant /guildremoval and turncoat tendencies.

Loot council really sucks sometimes, but other than what I described it is one of the best ways for a guild to progress so long as its members believe in the council's decisions

[kaev]

This thread desperately wants to be the poster-child for thatsjustyouropinionman.gif

[Velerin]

Funny thing is in Kunark (outside of VP) so much of the good gear people go crazy about are droppables. If I was really interested in one of those items I'd avoid all the drama, raid the hell out of those mobs with guildies, praise guildies that win them, and just farm some pp and buy one for myself in EC.

[Pint]

DKP puts everyone in charge of their own loot.

[maskedmelon]

Fairness is not some objective quality you can measure. As it is subjective, everyone has a differing notion of fairness. In that sense, loot council is more fair in the sense that it doesn't try to hide or deny the subjective nature of loot distribution.

Do you realize that you are arguing a word/concept means the opposite of itself? 'Fair' by definition is free of subjectivity/ bias.

Now that does not mean loot council is a bad system though, just that it is unfair to the individual.

Whether that is good or bad is entirely open for debate since those are subjective evaluations, but just because you feel it is right does not mean you can decide it is fair. It is not ^^

[Orruar]

Do you realize that you are arguing a word/concept means the opposite of itself? 'Fair' by definition is free of subjectivity/ bias.

Actually, from the dictionary:

in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate

So if you want to get technical, I could create a loot system where the winner is the person whose name is closest to "Orruar". As I scoop up all the loot, I say that the system is fair, since my lootwhoring is perfectly in accordance with the rules.

The definition of fair that you are attempting to use is a contradiction. How do you determine what is fair in an objective sense? Create any "fair" system of DKP and I'll point out a dozen ways in which the system is subjective and "unfair" to some members.

[maskedmelon]

Actually, from the dictionary:



So if you want to get technical, I could create a loot system where the winner is the person whose name is closest to "Orruar". As I scoop up all the loot, I say that the system is fair, since my lootwhoring is perfectly in accordance with the rules.

The definition of fair that you are attempting to use is a contradiction. How do you determine what is fair in an objective sense? Create any "fair" system of DKP and I'll point out a dozen ways in which the system is subjective and "unfair" to some members.

*sigh* Has Google become the oracle of mankind :( ? Click the drop down and you will see 'biased' listed as an antonym. If you want more, take a look at dictionary.com, merriam-Webster or even the Cambridge online dictionary.

DKP is fair because it offers every player the same assured opportunity not subject to the whims of another. You do x, you get y. Everyone gets the same outcome for each event within the system.

With loot council, outcomes are different, completely detached from the event. Again, not saying it is bad here, just that it is inherently not fair.

If you want a scenario, let's go with the following:

DKP Wages:
1/hr
1/target
.5 punctuality
1 conclusion

Pixels:
A: 10dkp
B: 5dkp
C: 1dkp


Pick apart! What's not fair? ^^

[Orruar]

Click the drop down and you will see 'biased' listed as an antonym.

Are you suggesting that human beings can only make biased decisions? Much of human organization is based around the notion that they can make fair decisions. Also, if humans are inherently incapable of being fair, then why would you allow them to create a set of rules to follow? Isn't it just as likely that they would set up the rules in such a way as to benefit themselves? I think you're maybe trying to say that DKP is less exploitable by a nefarious person than loot council, but I don't think there was any argument there.

[Orruar]

Something that may be confusing you: Subjectivity and bias are not the same thing. Find me one definition amongst the myriad that says fair means free from subjectivity.


DKP Wages:
1/hr
1/target
.5 punctuality
1 conclusion

Pixels:
A: 10dkp
B: 5dkp
C: 1dkp


That set of rules is subjective as hell. How did you objectively determine the relative values of targets, hours, etc? How did you objectively determine the value of the items?

[maskedmelon]

Are you suggesting that human beings can only make biased decisions? Much of human organization is based around the notion that they can make fair decisions. Also, if humans are inherently incapable of being fair, then why would you allow them to create a set of rules to follow? Isn't it just as likely that they would set up the rules in such a way as to benefit themselves? I think you're maybe trying to say that DKP is less exploitable by a nefarious person than loot council, but I don't think there was any argument there.

No, I was just pointing out that bias/subjectiveness is inherently unfair. You have already asserted that loot council is subjective, so I think we've reached resolution there. As for human capacity to make objective decisions that is a philosophical tangent I'm not interested in devoting my waning mental energy to right now @.@ I do not have an answer to that and I do not expect there is one to be had, though I may find myself pleasantly surprised one day ^^

We do however possess the ability to process information objectively and create systems with objective outcomes. This gift is called logic ^^

[maskedmelon]

Something that may be confusing you: Subjectivity and bias are not the same thing. Find me one definition amongst the myriad that says fair means free from subjectivity.



That set of rules is subjective as hell. How did you objectively determine the relative values of targets, hours, etc? How did you objectively determine the value of the items?

1. Refer to previous sources and a throw in a thesaurus.
2. Please elaborate. Specifically, how is the system biased/subjective? The values are irrelevant. Change them to whatever you like. That is the point.

[Orruar]

2. Please elaborate. Specifically, how is the system biased/subjective? The values are irrelevant. Change them to whatever you like. That is the point.

If your relative values for each of those rewards/pixels is not subjective, they must be objective. Usually it's somewhat difficult to prove a negative. In this case, I'm giving you the easiest test possible. Show how you objectively arrived at those numbers, without subjective value entering into the mix. I have several more ways to show that set of "rules" is subjective, but this is the simplest.

[Samoht]

As an example, I've received one pair of planar gloves in over a month of raiding in which I made 4/5 raids (before the raid tines were changed to a time I basically almost never am able to make). I've had people with equal attendance of the same class receive multiple items in a row while I was given something that was rotting.

name and shame.

[erog84]

Been a member/officer/leader in plenty of guilds on eq and wow with loot council, and it has never been innocent of favoritism in some form or another. Someone can preach that it's fair all they want, but I ain't buying it. DKP seems the closest to a fair system (its not perfect).

[Orruar]

Been a member/officer/leader in plenty of guilds on eq and wow with loot council, and it has never been innocent of favoritism in some form or another. Someone can preach that it's fair all they want, but I ain't buying it. DKP seems the closest to a fair system (its not perfect).

DKP systems have built-in favoritism in one form or another. If you have a rule that says you are ineligible for loot if you haven't raided in X days/weeks/months, you are playing favorites for current raiders. Hell, the whole idea of DKP is to play favorites for those who accrue the most DKP (whoever that happens to be). I've never seen a DKP system that didn't have a ton of small rules and addendums that were meant to prevent unfortunate loot distribution. Each of these is a form of favoritism.

I've always seen the most loot strife in DKP-based guilds. People would constantly bicker over DKP rules and regulations in order to adjust the rules to favor themselves. In contrast, the loot council guilds I've been in have been relatively fair. There will always been questioned loot calls, but as long as the officers can give some reasoning and you have trust in them, it's all good. And if you don't have trust in the leadership of your guild, why the hell are you there in the first place? And certainly the most fucked up loot calls I've seen have taken place in a DKP-based guild.

[maskedmelon]

If your relative values for each of those rewards/pixels is not subjective, they must be objective. Usually it's somewhat difficult to prove a negative. In this case, I'm giving you the easiest test possible. Show how you objectively arrived at those numbers, without subjective value entering into the mix. I have several more ways to show that set of "rules" is subjective, but this is the simplest.

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in what I was asking. As I already stated, the values are irrelevant. They don't matter. You can change them to whatever you like and the outcome will remain unbiased for the individual. Here's how it works:

Every player earns .5dkp for every event they arrive to on time.
Every player earns 1 dkp for every hour spent at every raid.
Every player earns 2 dkp for every mob killed.

No outcomes vary, ever. The outcome will be the same for every person who participates in the same way. There is no special consideration and therefore no bias. If a player has to work late and cannot attend they do not receive special consideration. If a player is unemployed and has all day to play, neither do they receive special consideration. If a player invokes the wrath of another household member and must leave the raid early, neither do they receive special consideration. Does that make sense? I am not sure how else to explain it.

I think it would be more helpful if you tried to explain why you believe it to be biased. What about the system do you feel is biased? If it is just the numbers, that doesn't make sense because they are irrelevant. As I said you can change them to whatever you like. We can explore that though if that is where you are hung up. What about the numbers do you feel is biased?

[Orruar]

You can change them to whatever you like

That's the definition of subjectivity right there. If the rules are subjectively created, then the outcomes determined by those rules are just as subjective. I was trying to make that point to you with my previous rule of "People named Orruar get all the loot". I didn't realize I hadn't been clear enough.

[maskedmelon]

That's the definition of subjectivity right there. If the rules are subjectively created, then the outcomes determined by those rules are just as subjective. I was trying to make that point to you with my previous rule of "People named Orruar get all the loot". I didn't realize I hadn't been clear enough.

Unfortunately that is not correct :/ You are getting hung up on the values when they are irrelevant to the system. The system is what we are discussing Orruar and its structure is simple:

do x, get y

There is nothing biased about it. There is in fact no room for bias. All who do x will always get y, no matter what. There is no consideration for anything, but the single parameter x as a condition for y. Where is the bias? Help me help you lol ^^

[maskedmelon]

I was trying to make that point to you with my previous rule of "People named Orruar get all the loot". I didn't realize I hadn't been clear enough.

No need to be snide ^^ I forgot to address this piece in my last post and I missed it the first time wherever you posted it, so sorry for that. You actually make a good point with this, though it is not what you intended. You illustratethe importance of parameters that are open to all, which supports the notion of dkp fairness. The parameter above is exclusionary. Basic dkp parameters are not (refer to my last post).

[Orruar]

do x, get y

There is nothing biased about it.

You are either inexperienced with DKP or incredibly naive, or both. Any DKP system has dozens, if not hundreds of rules. The rules are set in place in a subjective manner, leading to a subjective system. The rule lawyering that takes place under a DKP system is only eclipsed by patent trolls and P99 raid lawyers.

Even with your simple system of rules, which is orders of magnitude smaller than any working DKP system out there, you have already placed subjective value on being on time and for killing mobs. And if you had to actually run a guild, you would suddenly realize it is preferable to add several dozen more rules ranging from ways in which DKP can be earned (tracking is important) to how it can be spent (alts vs mains, app loots, long vacations, etc.) And each time you add a rule, it's a subjective call to do so. DKP is no more objective than loot council.

Anyway, this seems to all come down to your definition of subjective. If you're still convinced DKP is not subjective, then you must agree that an "Orruar gets all loot" is not subjective. And if that's the case, you're making the argument that DKP is as good as system as "Orruar gets all loot".

[TrendyDru]

run pugs, declare your loot policy up front.

That's the only loot distro your gonna see that's "fair" and gets you your desired goal.

Krey

I tried this and I got flamed into oblivion. I'm sure some ForumQuester has it bookmarked but I'm not going to give the link. For fear of thread derailment.

Inb4 iruined posts it.

[Orruar]

No need to be snide ^^ I forgot to address this piece in my last post and I missed it the first time wherever you posted it, so sorry for that. You actually make a good point with this, though it is not what you intended. You illustratethe importance of parameters that are open to all, which supports the notion of dkp fairness. The parameter above is exclusionary. Basic dkp parameters are not (refer to my last post).

Fine, then how about a loot system where it's alphabetical starting with the name of the item. So if you get Mrylokar's greaves, then someone named Mrzman would probably win. Sounds pretty awesome, ya?

Anyway, here's the crux of the argument, which you aren't understanding. There's already subjective assessment inserted into the equation when you decide that DKP points should be acquired via attendance. What if I think it would be more fair to be a combination of attendance and contribution. That 3rd ranger who just died within 3 seconds of engage because he pulled agro perhaps does not deserve the same as the rogue who did half the mob's hp in damage. What if I think it would be more fair to give people who contribute to the guild outside of raids by helping farm key pieces or soulfires? How about people who put in time tracking mobs?

There are a plethora of subjective assessments to make when coming up with a set of loot rules. The rules then obfuscate this subjectivity and cloak it in a veil of legitimacy. Simpleminded people see a set of rules and think it must mean the system is fair. This makes DKP at a higher risk of abuse. At least with loot council, the members know they need to hold their leadership accountable for loot distribution. With DKP, those with power can set the rules in such a way as to guarantee a lootfest for themselves.

[Cecily]

I tried this and I got flamed into oblivion. I'm sure some ForumQuester has it bookmarked but I'm not going to give the link. For fear of thread derailment.

Inb4 iruined posts it.

Ha that thread was great. Come farm spells with me. I'm calling dibs on Torpor.

[TrendyDru]

Ha that thread was great. Come farm spells with me. I'm calling dibs on Torpor.

Dibs is a legitimate opening line. Which holds up in a court of law.

"Your honor, my client clearly called dibs."

[Raev]

Here's how it works:

Every player earns .5dkp for every event they arrive to on time.
Every player earns 1 dkp for every hour spent at every raid.
Every player earns 2 dkp for every mob killed.?

It's obvious that you have never run a guild before.

Player X just spent 5 hours tracking. Should the contributions of trackers be valued more or less than raid hours?
Tank X has 80% attendance while Tank Y has 20%. Tank X is busy upgrading all of his slots, but Y just wants to look cool in the tunnel with lightsabers. Is it really in the guild's best interests to give green dragon scales to Y?
Rogue X averages 100 dps on Kunark targets, while rogue Y averages 50 (if you ever parse, you'll find its the same players who are at the top of the dps charts every time). Both players get the same DKP. Rogue X is justifiably pissed.

I could go on. The point is that DKP is a measurement of your contribution to the guild, and that measurement contains the bias. Not everything will make it into the DKP metric.

[Llodd]

It's obvious that you have never run a guild before.

Player X just spent 5 hours tracking. Should the contributions of trackers be valued more or less than raid hours?
Tank X has 80% attendance while Tank Y has 20%. Tank X is busy upgrading all of his slots, but Y just wants to look cool in the tunnel with lightsabers. Is it really in the guild's best interests to give green dragon scales to Y?
Rogue X averages 100 dps on Kunark targets, while rogue Y averages 50 (if you ever parse, you'll find its the same players who are at the top of the dps charts every time). Both players get the same DKP. Rogue X is justifiably pissed.

I could go on. The point is that DKP is a measurement of your contribution to the guild, and that measurement contains the bias. Not everything will make it into the DKP metric.

Just the same as a loot council then. SO; in summary, both systems done appropriately are 'fair'.

Sorted.

[maskedmelon]

It's obvious that you have never run a guild before.

Player X just spent 5 hours tracking. Should the contributions of trackers be valued more or less than raid hours?
Tank X has 80% attendance while Tank Y has 20%. Tank X is busy upgrading all of his slots, but Y just wants to look cool in the tunnel with lightsabers. Is it really in the guild's best interests to give green dragon scales to Y?
Rogue X averages 100 dps on Kunark targets, while rogue Y averages 50 (if you ever parse, you'll find its the same players who are at the top of the dps charts every time). Both players get the same DKP. Rogue X is justifiably pissed.

I could go on. The point is that DKP is a measurement of your contribution to the guild, and that measurement contains the bias. Not everything will make it into the DKP metric.

Your missing the point Raev. The point is that every member knows exactly what they can do to earn dkp and is free to do so. The system I posted was simple to illustrate that point. Sure you can add rules for all of the conditions that you listed and as long as you spell it out with a clearly defined rule, the outcome will not be biased. If you are just randomly awarding dkp for those activities though then it is really no different from loot council. There is only bias toward the individual if the rules are not applied uniformly.

[maskedmelon]

Even with your simple system of rules, which is orders of magnitude smaller than any working DKP system out there, you have already placed subjective value on being on time and for killing mobs. And if you had to actually run a guild, you would suddenly realize it is preferable to add several dozen more rules ranging from ways in which DKP can be earned (tracking is important) to how it can be spent (alts vs mains, app loots, long vacations, etc.)



Of course, but the outcome will ALWAYS be the same for EVERY individual the rule is applied to. That is by definition unbiased. What is so difficult here? This is actually starting to amuse me ^^ you can add all the rules you want, change all the values you like and so long as they all follow that format and are applied uniformly, guess what? It is fee of bias.

Your "Orruar gets all loot" rule doesn't work because persons named "Orruar" would realized different outcomes than those with different names and it is not possible to create characters with the same name. If however you revised the rule to:

"Characters named Orruar get all loot" AND If P99/EQ supported multiple characters with the the same name then, the rule is not biased because everyone is able to create a character named Orruar and receive loot. You would of course then have the problem of splitting loot amongst the Orruars who would undoubtedly form a loot council...

I do have to tip my hat to you for shifting the discussion to DKP ;) when were discussing Loot Council. It is entertaining though that you are now arguing DKP is subjective, the very quality that you insisted made loot council fairest of them all... Bravo!

[Pan]

At some point, the responsibility lies on the individual, too. I've known more than several people across various MMOs who would be victimized by any loot system...and, it turns out, by life itself - constantly.

And while both DKP and Loot Council systems have merits and proponents, there are just going to be times when stuff doesn't work out right even to the most unbiased eye. Shit happens. And when it does, it's up to the individual to determine how he/she will behave.

And that, to me, is probably the most important question when it comes to loot distribution. Are you guilded with a bunch of selfish drama vampires, or are you guilded with rational, sentient people who can work stuff out in the long term? Get that question right, and you've per-mitigated about 95pct of the drama that often is associated with loot in MMOs.

[Orruar]

Just the same as a loot council then. SO; in summary, both systems done appropriately are 'fair'.

Sorted.

Pretty much. Such a simple concept to understand, and yet completely lost on some people...

[Orruar]

stuff

I feel like your mind is just going in circles at this point, so there's no real use to continuing the discussion. I'm glad you finally admitted that DKP is no more objective than a system where loot is distributed based on the character's name.

[maskedmelon]

I feel like your mind is just going in circles at this point, so there's no real use to continuing the discussion. I'm glad you finally admitted that DKP is no more objective than a system where loot is distributed based on the character's name.

No worries Orruar ^^ I appreciate your efforts! Logic is a somewhat arcane concept for most and I've yet to find a reliable way to help others grasp it. The best advice I can offer is to avoid overthinking things and question everything ^^

[Nirgon]

Player X just spent 5 hours tracking.

o boy

[Kayd]

ROLEPLAY SCENARIO

Guild A gets a shot at Trakanon once every few months due to the raid scene on the server. Donal's BP drops, straight up /random happens, the cleric who logs in once a month for raids happens to win the BP over clerics who have been raiding consistently with the guild. In this exercise, you will roleplay a guild leader frantically trying to convince all those other clerics to remain with your guild and devising a new method of distributing high-value/high-rarity loot...

That depends on how many people in the guild are more casual players. If it's only a few then you are probably right. However, what we know about human nature says that random reinforcement is more effective at getting people to invest more time and effort, so if you have a high enough percentage of more casual players then you are more likely to get higher participation in events if more casual players have at least a non-zero chance of getting something great.

[Raev]

Sure you can add rules for all of the conditions that you listed and as long as you spell it out with a clearly defined rule, the outcome will not be biased

Not really. Are you going to be the one to tell Rogue Y he only got 1/2 dkp because his DPS was sub par? OH BUT I WAS DRAGGING CORPSES AND ROGUE X WAS NOT, WHAT ABOUT THAT? AND WHAT ABOUT ROGUE Z WHO PLOWED ENRAGE? THAT MISTAKE COST US AT LEAST 30 SECONDS IN DOWNTIME!!! WHY WASN'T HE DOCKED?!!!

You end up with a million DKP rules that everyone will lawyer. Again, once the DKP is in the system everything is fair. But deciding who gets what DKP? That's where the subjectivity and bias come in.

Cloki has the right idea here: guild with smart/chill people and you'll be fine whether its loot council or DKP.

[kaev]

That depends on how many people in the guild are more casual players. If it's only a few then you are probably right. However, what we know about human nature says that random reinforcement is more effective at getting people to invest more time and effort, so if you have a high enough percentage of more casual players then you are more likely to get higher participation in events if more casual players have at least a non-zero chance of getting something great.

And thereafter you have an ever-changing cast of quasi-motivated randoms who have no real interest in learning/improving strategy & tactics and who also have no real commitment to making the guild better. Meanwhile the players who did want to do something requiring more personal investment than queuing up for a dungeon run with other randoms have all left for guilds that reward players who put effort into to making the guild better. Congratulations, you get to /ran armor drops in the planes once in a while when you happen to find them unoccupied and your guild never kills any dragon/god again because the motivated guilds have cleared all targets before you got around to bringing a force to engage.


BTW, and despite the mildly negative tone of my comment, I knew of guilds on live that were happy to play that way. So if it works for you go for it.

[Clark]

Long as you don't join BDA you should be fine. Their loot council is by far the most corrupt.

[DrunkGrunt11b]

DKP + Loot council.

DKP- Why shouldn't people that always show up not be rewarded more over people who only log in for the mob that drops their shit?

Loot council- If two or more members tie on a item a loot council(of 5 or another odd number decides who gets loot) or if one person has more dkp then the other person but said person with less dkp but get far more gains of item the council can award it to them.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Long as you don't join BDA you should be fine. Their loot council is by far the most corrupt.

The loot council in BDA has always explained their rationale if asked, at least as far as I have seen. As mentioned in this thread, loot council decisions have a lot of factors that are considered, and those that feel slighted by a decision are not always fully aware of those factors.

That's the thing with loot councils, though... subjective decisions are tough and there's always going to be people that disagree with them. Guilds that opt for DKP relieve themselves of that subjectivity and source of potential discontent within the ranks, which I totally get because loot can make people do crazy things... but gearing based off of individual preferences and willingness to spend DKP doesn't always gear up the guild in the most efficient way possible (i.e. in Velious, tanks get hooked up first with all the good +HP, +resists shit instead of some bard that had a bunch of DKP to blow.)

[kaev]

Long as you don't join BDA you should be fine. Their loot council is by far the most corrupt.

The really pathetic thing about your shitpost is that you probably believe it to be true.

[erog84]

DKP systems have built-in favoritism in one form or another. If you have a rule that says you are ineligible for loot if you haven't raided in X days/weeks/months, you are playing favorites for current raiders. Hell, the whole idea of DKP is to play favorites for those who accrue the most DKP (whoever that happens to be). I've never seen a DKP system that didn't have a ton of small rules and addendums that were meant to prevent unfortunate loot distribution. Each of these is a form of favoritism.

I've always seen the most loot strife in DKP-based guilds. People would constantly bicker over DKP rules and regulations in order to adjust the rules to favor themselves. In contrast, the loot council guilds I've been in have been relatively fair. There will always been questioned loot calls, but as long as the officers can give some reasoning and you have trust in them, it's all good. And if you don't have trust in the leadership of your guild, why the hell are you there in the first place? And certainly the most fucked up loot calls I've seen have taken place in a DKP-based guild.

Issue # 1 - Blind Trust in your guild leadership. This is the internet, where sadly most people will take advantage if they can. Has happened in too many guilds on p99(and every other game known to man0 to just blindly trust your leadership to make the right call. DKP allows alot more accountability than a loot council where any officer can make up any reason they want.

Issue # 2 - You seem to think that everyone should have equal buying power regardless who raids more. To call it "favorites" for people who invest more time in the guild to get more gear speaks to some type of entitlement mindset.

[Kayd]

BTW, and despite the mildly negative tone of my comment, I knew of guilds on live that were happy to play that way. So if it works for you go for it.
Thanks, I understand better why guilds do it. I was just pointing out it does have consequences. The nature of the game is that loot is random. Therefore, the only way to make sure those who put in the most time have a higher probability of getting something good is to make sure those that have the least time to put in have a lower probability of getting anything good. People go to whatever guild is going to give them the best chance of getting what they want thus you get guilds like the one you mention.

[August]

Zero sum DKP is the only nonbiased, fair way to award loot based on contribution and previous loot distribution.

DKP systems nowadays award inflationary dkp and implement bid systems to balance that massive oversight out.

If I'm in a raid and a piece of loot drops that is worth 100 DKP and there are 25 members at the table, we all get 4, someone spends 100 dkp, and it's done. If those same 25 people continually made every raid and the same scenario played out, all 25 would get 1 piece of loot (for the same amount of contribution) in 25 100 dkp loot drops.

Ran a DKP system for several years both in EQ and WoW with this exact mentality and it worked flawlessly. WoW guild was world top 10 for both years that i ran it - because our members were geared based on how much they showed up and contributed to getting loot (which is another indicator that they do well - we actually down the boss).

[maskedmelon]

Zero sum DKP is the only nonbiased, fair way to award loot based on contribution and previous loot distribution.

DKP systems nowadays award inflationary dkp and implement bid systems to balance that massive oversight out.

If I'm in a raid and a piece of loot drops that is worth 100 DKP and there are 25 members at the table, we all get 4, someone spends 100 dkp, and it's done. If those same 25 people continually made every raid and the same scenario played out, all 25 would get 1 piece of loot (for the same amount of contribution) in 25 100 dkp loot drops.

Ran a DKP system for several years both in EQ and WoW with this exact mentality and it worked flawlessly. WoW guild was world top 10 for both years that i ran it - because our members were geared based on how much they showed up and contributed to getting loot (which is another indicator that they do well - we actually down the boss).

That's an interesting compromise between loot council and dip and seems to function most closely to alpha ^^ since in essence everyone in 100% attendance is taking turns. The guilds's interests are not directly elevated/satisfied as with loot council and it seems to address Ceci's concerns about strategic spending, which certainly must cut down on the frustration of those who would otherwise be outwitted. It would also aid in retention rate for some because one would realize that they will get the items they want for certain if they are patient.

I like it.

[Kayso]

We use DKP. I would also trust our officers 100% to make good loot council decisions if that was our system. And I would trust most of our members would agree with those decisions most of the time.

As was mentioned, being in the right guild with good leadership is the key. Everything else just works out.

[August]

That's an interesting compromise between loot council and dip and seems to function most closely to alpha ^^ since in essence everyone in 100% attendance is taking turns. The guilds's interests are not directly elevated/satisfied as with loot council and it seems to address Ceci's concerns about strategic spending, which certainly must cut down on the frustration of those who would otherwise be outwitted. It would also aid in retention rate for some because one would realize that they will get the items they want for certain if they are patient.

I like it.

The most important part about it is that there is no inflation. More DKP should not enter the system that exits out of it. Inflation is the game-killer, because it allows people with above average attendance to start taking more items than is proportional to their attendance, and the people who are coming to 30% of raids, may only see 10% of drops.

Of course, this means that mobs value varies based on what drops, and how many people are present in your raid. This means that 1 Trakanon raid may be worth 2x another. You can try and skirt this by building a loot table, average raid size, and average DKP value of his drops, and produce a static amount (this is what we did, but it requires that you collect data over the long term). Assuming your trends are correct, average DKP IN == average DKP OUT.

Even then, there are outlier situations that need to be dealt with.

1) You don't down the mob. You'll be really tempted to give your guild attendees points for mobilizing and spending time. Fact of the matter is you weren't successful. Nobody gets a cookie. NO DKP

2) An item (NO DROP) drops and nobody wants it. This is inflation entering into the system. It sucks - if you do it via pure numbers (dkp spent / number of people in raid) just omit the item from the calculation. If you've given static amounts based on statistics, you need to keep track of these items. About once a month you should calculate the amount of inflation compared to total rewarded, and apply a blanket tax equal to the amount across your member base. Something like taking everyone's DKP and reducing it by 10%. This is fair to all active members, and also penalizes 'hoarders' more than those who are actively using and consuming their dkp (for example, if i'm at 0 DKP and i get taxed 10%.. that's 0 dkp lost. I lose 10 DKP if i've saved up 100).

3) An item (DROP) drops and nobody wants it. Create an account for 'the guild' and have 'the guild' be a viable DKP entity. The guild default spends the DKP if it's droppable, and that goes into the guildbank. Thus you are almost guaranteed the guild to be the most negative member, so it never has priority - it's only the dumping ground. This can help with....

4) Tracking. You have to reward your trackers. You can't do it with DKP unless you somehow build that into your system. The guild bank should have plenty of items and you can reward them from this pool. Alternatively

5) Buffer DKP - Decisions in zero sum DKP are based on 'who has the most DKP and wants the item'. You can award trackers, basically (+) modifiers on their DKP when an item is up for consideration, and then wipe out their buffer when they take an item. An easy example is say you have someone tracking Trak, and you decide to award 1 DKP buffer per hour of tracking.

Tracker A - has 20 base DKP, and spends 10 hours tracking, giving them a +10 to roll
Member B - has 25 base DKP

Trak spawns, guild kills him, and he drops AMAZING_ITEM_FOR_TRACKERA_AND_MEMBER_B.

Item price is 20 DKP. Tracker A says he wants it, Member B says he wants it. Tracker A has 20(+10) 30 DKP priority, Member B has 25. Tracker A Wins item:

Tracker A now has 0 DKP (and no buffer)
Member B now has 25 DKP.

This means that trackers get PRIORITY on gear but not more DKP, and once they use their buffer they're back to normal. This incentivizes tracking for high priority items. Alternatively, the tracker can trade in their buffer DKP to the guild bank for items of equivalent DKP value (droppables).


Anyways, i got bored and just wrote out some of the rules we used to enforce. Hope it helps someone.