Interesting Class Changes

[Halius]

Just bored at work and was thinking about how Mages really get the shaft when it comes to CC. Every other caster class (even healers) get some form of CC whether it's root, stun, mez, fear, etc. Mages on the other hand have to rely on their pets for any type of CC which really comes down to the air pet or earth pet. Even then, the pets only proc once every 10 seconds or so which isn't really all that effective at holding down a mob. Additionally you can only have 1 pet out at a time, so if you are soloing with say a water pet or fire pet, you are screwed once a new mob shows up and you either have to pray for the best from your pet, our gate the hell out.

Anyways I wanted to bring up what I think would have been a cool idea for mages. I think it would have been cool to have some sort of CC pet that you can summon ALONG with your regular pet. Here is how I see it would work and make mages have CC but be different then other CC classes.

1. CC pet would be a quick cast maybe, 1-3 seconds.

I would think you would keep this in line with however long normal CC spells take to cast with other classes.

2. CC pet would either root mobs or stun lock them.

The only difference I see here is if you gave mages a CC root pet then they would only be effective at CCing for melee mobs as casters would still be active but rooted. Pet would also not do any damage and is only meant for CC.

3. CC pet would be limited duration by time AND health.

The duration of the pet would only last until that pet was either killed by the mob (being if it was a root pet it would still be getting hit) or a timer where it would despawn, the timer being in line with other classes CC durations. You also wouldn't want this second pet to be permanent as I think it would make it too OP in terms of CC.

Anyways these are just my thoughts on what could have been and I think would have been pretty cool as an alternative of CC for mages, having a second pet. This would make it more interesting to play with a mage in a group setting as well, you would have to be able to control two pets at a time during multi-mob fights. Let me know what you think about it, or even if you have suggestions for other changes to mages or other classes you wish you could have seen. It's always fun to think about what could have been.

[Melissa]

Ib4notclassic

[Daldaen]

I think they gave Mages all of those later on on live...

They had an AA fire elemental pet that would immediately steal aggro from 2-3 mobs tank for 12 seconds then memblur them and die.

They also got a spell line that summoned a gargoyle pet that did huge DPS, stole aggro off your main pet and would die after 30 seconds of being alive - less if he got killed.

The earth pet got a better root and it proced a rune/mitigation buff on itself eventually so you could micro your pet better.

[Halius]

Yeah I quit right after PoP, and I played a Warrior on live so I never actually knew if they implemented any type of change like this.

[Halius]

Ib4notclassic

And yes I realize this ha. I'm not suggestion these changes be made, just thinking out loud for the sake of discussion.

[Daldaen]

Live definitely made playing classes a lot more interesting.

Unfortunately the content you got to play with these new interesting abilities, sucks.

All the Tasks and Achievements being so cookie cutter, very few interesting/unique quests.

[Itap]

There are a few classes that seem unbalanced before AAs came into play. All the hybrid classes, for instance.

[Itap]

Every other Melee class receives double attack, minus bards.

[Halius]

There are a few classes that seem unbalanced before AAs came into play. All the hybrid classes, for instance.

That's true, but even all the Hybrids get some form of CC. Both paladins and rangers get root, and SK gets fear (although not ideal in a social mob setting). Mages only get root if they limit themselves exclusively to the Earth pet. Don't get me wrong I know that mages can still solo much better than the hybrid classes, I'm just pointing out the CC flaw of mages.

[Halius]

Every other Melee class receives double attack, minus bards.

Yeah that does suck. Obviously each class has flaws, that's why I wanted to open a discussion about it. It's always interesting to hear peoples opinions about what changes could have been made.

[Daldaen]

You can look at all the casters and see many flaws.

Mana regen - Necros get Lich, Shamans get Canni, Enchanter get C/ToT, Wizards get Harvest/Manaskin/Epic, Mages get mod rods, Druids get Mask (at level 60)... Clerics get... ???

Eventually this balances out when wizards get familiars and another harvest in Luclin/PoP. Mages get pet canni, druids get mana regen on their HP buff and clerics get mana regen on their self HP buff and Yaulp.

Efficient Healing - Clerics get CH and HoTs (CE/CH), Shamans get Torpor, Druids get... ???

Eventually it balances out in Luclin when Druids get Tunare's Renewal.

Etc etc etc

Tl;dr - Luclin/PoP worked to bring the game to the most balanced state it ever was, with the best content there ever was.

[Grizzled]

When druids and shamans got rez, I became disgusted with live eq. Original eq was designed for class roles, and weaknesses. Players quickly overcame most of the weaknesses. But yet the classes were not for the most part identical like in a famous blizzard game.

[Basenji]

A lot of that was probably intentional, too. I mean, clerics get a 10% bonus to every heal they cast, right? And that's in addition to having more efficient base spells at earlier levels. Clerics don't have a self mana regen spell because they don't need one.

That said I do agree with a lot of the idea. Sometimes I wish I could have classic EQ as the designers wanted before the problems with network, server power, and profit margins forced them to ship what we got. For example, Druids have a track skill cap of 50 on P1999 right now because that's what it was on live. But the reason for that was due to a client limitation that doesn't currently exist on P1999. So which is more classic? The actual server state or the developer's intent?

-- The tracking skill cap for Druids has been raised to 125. It was the intent for druids to be better at tracking than they were, however before the scroll bar, smaller skill numbers were often considered better. With the tracking improvements from the last patch, this increase was appropriate.



I really did like the WoW concept of CC, even if it was never really useful. Almost every class had the ability to CC one or two mobs at most, and they were limited to certain types. Then they put mixed types in dungeons and a good group would have had to work together to contain the pulls - which were agro linked. But after playing with WoW players, I'm very happy that the mobs were so easy that CC wasn't really necessary. It would have been a nightmare.

[Erydan Ouragan]

When druids and shamans got rez, I became disgusted with live eq. Original eq was designed for class roles, and weaknesses. Players quickly overcame most of the weaknesses. But yet the classes were not for the most part identical like in a famous blizzard game.

You mean starcraft 2 right??


Luclin/PoP worked to bring the game to the most balanced state it ever was, with the best content there ever was.

Yes, that era was amazing. Every class was useful and had something to bring. Hell, even wizards were doing fine in regular xp groups, that says something.

The content was the best too, very balanced. I remember grouping in PoEarth with guildies for AAs, even with a tank in raid gear the healer had to pay attention and we had to be on point with CC. Definitely didn't feel too easy. Oh and paladin tanks with slay undead in Crypt of Decay.. damn.

Every class was powerful and had fun abilities and spells without all the bloat on live. You didn't need 5 hotbars full of AAs and macros during PoP.

I know a lot of people bitch about Luclin, but it's one of my favorite expansions. The zones were awesome in a weird and a creepy way, i spent an unhealthy amount of time in akheva ruins, easily my favorite zone in the game. There was so much to do. Grinding AAs, shard groups, man i wish i could go back to 2002-2004 =/

[Itap]

Luclin was a great expansion, it's the new character models that made me cringe

[Basenji]

It was never the models for me. It was the animations that came with them.

The biggest complaint I have about a lot of the balance from those expansions is that they were clearly implemented to fix problems in the older expansions. And instead of fixing them, they added them to the box on Luclin and charged $50 for it. Bard overhaste? That should have been a patch to the Ervaj line from Velious instead of a new line in Luclin. Endless quiver? That should have just been given to rangers at 60.

[Rayzor84]

You can look at all the casters and see many flaws.

Mana regen - Necros get Lich, Shamans get Canni, Enchanter get C/ToT, Wizards get Harvest/Manaskin/Epic, Mages get mod rods, Druids get Mask (at level 60)... Clerics get... ???

Eventually this balances out when wizards get familiars and another harvest in Luclin/PoP. Mages get pet canni, druids get mana regen on their HP buff and clerics get mana regen on their self HP buff and Yaulp.

Efficient Healing - Clerics get CH and HoTs (CE/CH), Shamans get Torpor, Druids get... ???

Eventually it balances out in Luclin when Druids get Tunare's Renewal.

Etc etc etc

Tl;dr - Luclin/PoP worked to bring the game to the most balanced state it ever was, with the best content there ever was.

Except that when every class does everything well, all distinctions are lost. Playing a shaman over a druid becomes negligible, making classes less valuable and unique.

[Daldaen]

Except that when every class does everything well, all distinctions are lost. Playing a shaman over a druid becomes negligible, making classes less valuable and unique.

False.

Clerics retained Rez, CH efficiency, Reverse DS, Symbol
Druids retained ATK debuffs, skin buff, SoE/FoE, 2nd tier nukes and heals
Shamans retained Slow, Malo, Avatar, Canni, Melee stat buffs, Focus

Having a shaman as a group healer and a druid as a group healer in Luclin or PoP was very different. Shamans healed through Slows mitigating damage, Torpor/Quiessence healing over time, and crappy single heals. Druids healed through inefficient CHs, ATK Debuffs reducing DPS (this was never as effective as it should've been IMO for grouping), and solid patch heals. Clerics had CH remaining awesome as well as solid HoTs and patch/fast heals, and reverse DS.

Every guild wanted multiples of each class and every group could fit in each class somewhere, Clerics were almost required in some of the harder camps, which was unfortunate but if you had a solid group otherwise you could make do with a Shaman/Druid combo or an Enchanter/Druid combo.

Clerics were terrible at DPS and preventing damage.
Shamans were terrible solo healers and DPS
Druids were mediocre solo healers (bad without slows) and mediocre DPS.

[Halius]

Yeah I guess I'm kind of arguing both sides now. I mean it would be cool for mages to have CC but I also want class separation. I don't want everyone to be able to do everything, it makes the game more fun relying on others for a balance.

I had no problem with the Luclin/PoP expansions either. I thought AAs we a nice addition that helped you progress without increasing the level cap. I always pop into live every couple months just to see my old warrior and cleric. I see all the fierce heraldic gear I spent so much time trying to get, only to be dwarfed by the damn defiant gear now. I mean the level requirement for Fierce Heraldic was level 45 and now level 10 defiant gear has better stats, that's just dumb.

Anyways back on topic.

[Swish]

Yeah I guess I'm kind of arguing both sides now. I mean it would be cool for mages to have CC but I also want class separation. I don't want everyone to be able to do everything, it makes the game more fun relying on others for a balance.

I had no problem with the Luclin/PoP expansions either. I thought AAs we a nice addition that helped you progress without increasing the level cap. I always pop into live every couple months just to see my old warrior and cleric. I see all the fierce heraldic gear I spent so much time trying to get, only to be dwarfed by the damn defiant gear now. I mean the level requirement for Fierce Heraldic was level 45 and now level 10 defiant gear has better stats, that's just dumb.

Anyways back on topic.


They really screwed up live. With a bunch of staff changes and just snowballing stats for the sake of "its a new expansion"... same thing happened to WoW. Used to shoot arrows for 200-300, now its literally 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever. Numbers don't mean anything if they're continually scaled up like that.

[Halius]

They really screwed up live. With a bunch of staff changes and just snowballing stats for the sake of "its a new expansion"... same thing happened to WoW. Used to shoot arrows for 200-300, now its literally 20,000 or 50,000 or whatever. Numbers don't mean anything if they're continually scaled up like that.

I always hated that, but I mean what else can they do to keep people interested? If you can't see improvement then what is the point of continuing to play? That is why I like the AA system, it was a way to progress your character without increasing the level cap and making it ridiculous.

I remember in WoW:TBC raiding with my 70 mage was awesome because I was spec'd in Fire and could occasionally get 10K+ crits with Pyroblast using talents. Last time I logged into wow (6 months ago?) I was on my warrior and getting 10-20k hits with my regular skills. It's just crazy how things change. I mean can't they make enemies "more difficult" without increases HP pools and damage, and instead adding in new bosses with more difficult mechanics?

[Swish]

I'd move the decimal point, don't know why that hasn't been thought of or used.

24958 becomes 2496 etc

[Erydan Ouragan]

I mean can't they make enemies "more difficult" without increases HP pools and damage, and instead adding in new bosses with more difficult mechanics?

Well if they do that without increasing damage, then players complain the mobs take too long to kill. That's why people whine vex thal was a snorefest.

If they add more difficult mechanics, they will complain too, because the average player just sucks. On WoW, people had a hard time understanding very simple, basic concepts. Like don't stand in the fire and hit the back of the boss to avoid cleave.

Fuck, on p99, despite being a 16 years old game.. Some people struggle with assisting the tank and step back a little bit when a mob is rooted.

[perditionparty]

Fuck, on p99, despite being a 16 years old game.. Some people struggle with assisting the tank and step back a little bit when a mob is rooted.



no way maaaan, like you're just ruining the spirit of the game maaan. Like, these people who know how mechanics of the game work are just like ruining it for everyone else, ya know? like, don't ruin my immersion with your meta-knowledge - just play and have fun, wiping, death and corpse runs are part of the game. Like, why take time to learn about the game when it's just missing the point of this nostalgic love fest that should really be going on. like, class roles like tank, cc and healing is just a concept that came after everquest with games like snore of worldcraft maaan, people are totally missing the point of the classic game maaan. like, just play, have fun and who cares about game mechanics. People who actually learn the game just make me sick and I would never try to group with them.

[fadetree]

Yep, I loved the luclin/PoP era...best game there ever was imo.

You mean starcraft 2 right??

Yes, that era was amazing. Every class was useful and had something to bring. Hell, even wizards were doing fine in regular xp groups, that says something.

The content was the best too, very balanced. I remember grouping in PoEarth with guildies for AAs, even with a tank in raid gear the healer had to pay attention and we had to be on point with CC. Definitely didn't feel too easy. Oh and paladin tanks with slay undead in Crypt of Decay.. damn.

Every class was powerful and had fun abilities and spells without all the bloat on live. You didn't need 5 hotbars full of AAs and macros during PoP.

I know a lot of people bitch about Luclin, but it's one of my favorite expansions. The zones were awesome in a weird and a creepy way, i spent an unhealthy amount of time in akheva ruins, easily my favorite zone in the game. There was so much to do. Grinding AAs, shard groups, man i wish i could go back to 2002-2004 =/

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Any discussion like this needs to keep in mind, lots of classes get shafted in classic-velious. It's part of the game. The limits of all the classes are designed to incentivize social gameplay.

I like daydreaming too, but the weakness of a class is usually there for a reason, "go be social."

The alternative is every major mmo since everquest, which are all deathly afraid of making customers upset, and so make all classes able to more or less do everything. They should not even be called mmorpg's anymore, frankly. They are massively multiplayer online single-player games.

These are not "flaws." They are design decisions that reward social gaming.

I remember at one fan faire, they had a mock session on "Everquest and solo gaming." It was a joke: there were chairs set up, but no speaker, and no attendees.

It's a design intention to have areas of weakness. IMO, p99 actually already nerfs a lot of that -- bards, monk dps, charm, and a super-reliable invis come to mind. Overpowered, all four, because they erode or allow you to avoid the social design of the game.

[shamanredux]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Wooly_Spider_Silk_Net

[Oleris]

wizards: instantly kill any non raid NPC once it reaches below 50% health. Consumes 25% of mana. This spell works on raid mobs under 8%. Can be resisted.

[iruinedyourday]

haha why not have a quick summon pet that has heavy amount of Hitpoints, but does no DPs and only taunts, and you can summon more than one!

basically the RolePlay for this pet is that its a linebacker pet that bearhugs mobs and wont let go untnil they have beaten it to death.

[applesauce25r624]

"get out of the fire" !

i blame:
1. stoners
2. people with shitty attention spans

[fadetree]

Rangers: just give us AM3/EQ of some sort. It's all we need.

[Daldaen]

Rangers: just give us AM3/EQ of some sort. It's all we need.

This is truth. AM3/EQ made the ranger class way more interesting. With a solid weapon set, you could burn Trueshot, and when it ended run in and melee to finish.

[Halius]

Any discussion like this needs to keep in mind, lots of classes get shafted in classic-velious. It's part of the game. The limits of all the classes are designed to incentivize social gameplay.

I like daydreaming too, but the weakness of a class is usually there for a reason, "go be social."

The alternative is every major mmo since everquest, which are all deathly afraid of making customers upset, and so make all classes able to more or less do everything. They should not even be called mmorpg's anymore, frankly. They are massively multiplayer online single-player games.

These are not "flaws." They are design decisions that reward social gaming.

I remember at one fan faire, they had a mock session on "Everquest and solo gaming." It was a joke: there were chairs set up, but no speaker, and no attendees.

It's a design intention to have areas of weakness. IMO, p99 actually already nerfs a lot of that -- bards, monk dps, charm, and a super-reliable invis come to mind. Overpowered, all four, because they erode or allow you to avoid the social design of the game.

Yeah it's funny cause I agree with all of this. I guess I'm just thinking out loud about how I thought it would be cool to have a temporary pet that can do CC. I understand the whole class weakness thing and the need for it so it forces you to be social with others, that is why I was so addicted to EQ when I first played in 2000 and why I still play it today. I guess my choice of the word flaw was wrong, but weakness yes.

[Halius]

haha why not have a quick summon pet that has heavy amount of Hitpoints, but does no DPs and only taunts, and you can summon more than one!

basically the RolePlay for this pet is that its a linebacker pet that bearhugs mobs and wont let go untnil they have beaten it to death.

Yeah that was my intention I just forgot to include that part in my OP. I was thinking that obviously it wouldn't do any damage, it is literally just there to act as a makeshift CC.

[Daldaen]

You seem to equate classes getting more abilities to EQ becoming a single player game.

Just because classes get abilities doesn't mean they no longer need a healer or DPS or CC.

When druids got better heals in Luclin and PoP, clerics didn't just disappear. When Rangers got decent DPS upgrades finally, Rogues didn't just disappear and Rangers weren't out there soloing group content that groups struggled with.

Even in EQ Live right now, many classes have abilities to FD/Fade, they have abilities to heal themselves slightly and go into burn modes. But they all still retain their core role in groups and raids. Group content still requires a healer, a tank, and some DPS. Though you can fill those with NPCs at times. It isn't a single player game unless you want to make it that way through boxing and mercenaries.

Just like this server isn't a single player game unless you want to make it that way by playing a caster or a fungi twinked melee.

MMOs are what you make them. You can choose to be social and always group or you can choose to not socialize all the time and solo. Each person should be able to choose whatever they prefer to enjoy the game their way.

[Erydan Ouragan]

The limits of all the classes are designed to incentivize social gameplay.

I like daydreaming too, but the weakness of a class is usually there for a reason, "go be social."

These are not "flaws." They are design decisions that reward social gaming.

It's a design intention to have areas of weakness. IMO, p99 actually already nerfs a lot of that -- bards, monk dps, charm, and a super-reliable invis come to mind. Overpowered, all four, because they erode or allow you to avoid the social design of the game.

Some what you're saying is true, but i don't believe they are inherent design.

You seem to equate classes getting more abilities to EQ becoming a single player game.

Just because classes get abilities doesn't mean they no longer need a healer or DPS or CC.

When druids got better heals in Luclin and PoP, clerics didn't just disappear. When Rangers got decent DPS upgrades finally, Rogues didn't just disappear and Rangers weren't out there soloing group content that groups struggled with.

Even in EQ Live right now, many classes have abilities to FD/Fade, they have abilities to heal themselves slightly and go into burn modes. But they all still retain their core role in groups and raids. Group content still requires a healer, a tank, and some DPS. Though you can fill those with NPCs at times. It isn't a single player game unless you want to make it that way through boxing and mercenaries.

Just like this server isn't a single player game unless you want to make it that way by playing a caster or a fungi twinked melee.

MMOs are what you make them. You can choose to be social and always group or you can choose to not socialize all the time and solo. Each person should be able to choose whatever they prefer to enjoy the game their way.

Bingo.

The reason why druids got better heals and rangers could actually be "rangers" and not "3/4 of a warrior with shitty druid spells" was to correct inherent flaws. It was the devs finally realizing that some classes were just better designed, with well defined roles in the game, while other were just behind.

Luclin/PoP with the new spells and AAs did not homogenize everything and made everyone equal. Like Daldaen said, it simply made the ones lacking far behind, well, a little bit less far behind, haha.

That, in my opinion, made the game even more social. When every class has something to bring and can perform relatively well, less people are rejected from groups simply because they're playing what's perceived as the "wrong" class. Look right here, on p99, hybrids are passed up on groups because of the xp penalty, people don't want to group with wizards "their dps suck all they do is sit and xp sponge" and "we need a cleric".

Luclin/PoP improvements fixed a lot of that shit.

[Velerin]

yeah, mages always got the shaft on cc. I never knew why every caster class gets some kind besides mages. Would be nice not to have to burn root nets for every add when solo.
Also mage mana regen always sucked. Can't really lump mod rods with C, canni, lich, harvest, etc. Its more along the line of the necro twitch line. It doesn't help mage self regen at all (cost to summon > mana you get) The only benefit for the solo mage is to keep one on hand for emergencies.
Most play times I cast about 3 spells tops and my mage is the only caster I have that can spare a slot for gate all the time.

[Erydan Ouragan]

yeah, mages always got the shaft on cc. I never knew why every caster class gets some kind besides mages. Would be nice not to have to burn root nets for every add when solo.
Also mage mana regen always sucked. Can't really lump mod rods with C, canni, lich, harvest, etc. Its more along the line of the necro twitch line. It doesn't help mage self regen at all (cost to summon > mana you get) The only benefit for the solo mage is to keep one on hand for emergencies.
Most play times I cast about 3 spells tops and my mage is the only caster I have that can spare a slot for gate all the time.

The way i see it, mages are kind of like the rogues of casters. Sustained DPS with the pet, plus good burst. They can solo, but really shine in groups. So no CC.

[fadetree]

The Ranger issues were actually the result of a killer nerf before the game even went live. Originally much stronger...then they brought out the nerf bat and overamped it because they didn't know shit about nerfing yet. WE ARE MARTYRS.
and not "3/4 of a warrior with shitty druid spells"

3/4? I wish. But I don't want to tank, I just want my archery to be worth a crap. That's all we need.

[Itap]

People who have never played a Mage underestimate the power of their pets. I've been in groups where my pet has killed an add before the rest of the group killed their target.

[dafier]

Every other Melee class receives double attack, minus bards.

Hence the reason why High level bards in raiding are for simply singing and scratching a monsters back...every now and then.

[dafier]

People who have never played a Mage underestimate the power of their pets. I've been in groups where my pet has killed an add before the rest of the group killed their target.

The only reason Necros are solo masters is 'feign death' + more.

Mages by far have the best pets in the game. And the Epic pet....especially on < 55 lvl content is crazy awesome.

I absolutely love mages.

[Arteker]

petty post, its a well know issue every class have his strong points and hard points.

AA system adressed the fact eq class where in a dead end and provided a excellent service to make every class more unique depending the work of each user.
in the case of magician in luclin the most ignore by most of them was how good was their pet heal spell wich focus would turn into a 1300 heal .

Ranger in velious was the most changed class overall with their whole set of atk buffs, and later in luclin even more upgraded by aas .

Back then Ranger popularity grew up due mainly to stupid add character Drizz do urden , and several people(even absor) being fans of salvatore.

Mages have no reason to complain in p99 , pre kunark their pets where not the classic magician pets (wich where kinda bad at time) while the necromancers never got their real 49 pet of doom.

[Halius]

petty post, its a well know issue every class have his strong points and hard points.

AA system adressed the fact eq class where in a dead end and provided a excellent service to make every class more unique depending the work of each user.
in the case of magician in luclin the most ignore by most of them was how good was their pet heal spell wich focus would turn into a 1300 heal .

Ranger in velious was the most changed class overall with their whole set of atk buffs, and later in luclin even more upgraded by aas .

Back then Ranger popularity grew up due mainly to stupid add character Drizz do urden , and several people(even absor) being fans of salvatore.

Mages have no reason to complain in p99 , pre kunark their pets where not the classic magician pets (wich where kinda bad at time) while the necromancers never got their real 49 pet of doom.

I love playing my mage, I know that they have great pets and that every class is gimped somewhere. I wasn't complaining, just opening a discussion about what people thought would have been cool changes for classes in Classic EQ.

[Arteker]

note im not bashing but the issue of cc for magician 50+ was aswell deal with the following item

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=10393

classic mages who needed to use root where enough smart to carry a whole backpack of cliky nets from permafrost aswell and recharging them .

my question is , your post is for solo or group, because then it open a can of posibilitys to very critic answers.

im sorry to say this post remember me so much to monk crys about they could not pull nothing in luclin , pop . then they got monk luls, but it just turned monks who actualy could pull mobs by fd split wich would not be afected by them even harder to find.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Hence the reason why High level bards in raiding are for simply singing and scratching a monsters back...every now and then.

Even in groups, bard melee is low priority. You would be surprised how many people asked me to melee when the casters are lom and the puller keeps chain pulling.

CC > haste/buffs/mana regen > melee.

People need to realize that bards have no double attack and a 210 cap on dual wield. This means you have less dual wield checks than paladins/SKs, who have a double attack cap of 235. Mathematically, this means pally/SK melee damage is superior with equal gear/level/buffs, because they will double attack more than you will dual wield.

They look like they can do decent melee damage because they're dual wielding, so people think they must be kind of a rogue/enchanter hybrid who can dps and mez, but the reality is that bard melee damage is laughable. I play one, i see my combat log. Even with Aanya's Quickening (64% haste), fully shaman buffed + my stat songs all stacked, it's simply pathetic when i look at the monk/rogue/warrior/ranger having 8 hits every time i hit twice. And that's when i'm not missing 6 times in a row.

I do more damage with my 3 dot songs (163/tick at the moment) than meleeing and my weapons are decent. Guardians Mace and Harmonic Dagger.

And yet, when the cleric/chanter/wiz are lom because of a bad pull, i'm getting told to melee because "mobs don't die fast enough". The amount of misinformation about bards it's just incredible.

And yet, still today 16 years later, there are still people who go "nah, bard melee isn't that bad." No, it's really fucking bad.

[Arteker]

Even in groups, bard melee is low priority. You would be surprised how many people asked me to melee when the casters are lom and the puller keeps chain pulling.

CC > haste/buffs/mana regen > melee.

People need to realize that bards have no double attack and a 210 cap on dual wield. This means you have less dual wield checks than paladins/SKs, who have a double attack cap of 235. Mathematically, this means pally/SK melee damage is superior with equal gear/level/buffs, because they will double attack more than you will dual wield.

They look like they can do decent melee damage because they're dual wielding, so people think they must be kind of a rogue/enchanter hybrid who can dps and mez, but the reality is that bard melee damage is laughable. I play one, i see my combat log. Even with Aanya's Quickening (64% haste), fully shaman buffed + my stat songs all stacked, it's simply pathetic when i look at the monk/rogue/warrior/ranger having 8 hits every time i hit twice. And that's when i'm not missing 6 times in a row.

I do more damage with my 3 dot songs (163/tick at the moment) than meleeing and my weapons are decent. Guardians Mace and Harmonic Dagger.

And yet, when the cleric/chanter/wiz are lom because of a bad pull, i'm getting told to melee because "mobs don't die fast enough". The amount of misinformation about bards it's just incredible.

And yet, still today 16 years later, there are still people who go "nah, bard melee isn't that bad." No, it's really fucking bad.
unless the bard has epic, his instruments mod on his songs are more valuable than small dmg

[Erydan Ouragan]

unless the bard has epic, his instruments mod on his songs are more valuable than small dmg

I agree, and i'll even add that the real usefulness of bard epic is the singing modifier. It's the only item in the game that improves song based on singing. Every other instruments has a batter modifier than the epic, which is 18.

Since slow/mana regen cannot be improved by any instruments, the only thing bard epic gives is a better snare/debuff with the 51 song and slightly better mana regen with the lvl 32 mana song. It has a nice 55% haste proc with stats though, so if there is no chanter in the group, you can switch chorus of celerity for something else.

Earlier this week i was in a LCY group in KC. warrior/monk/rogue/rogue/shaman and me. Shaman was main healing with greater heal because he was 52. No clarity. How did he do that? Because i wasn't meleeing.

When i wasn't mezzing, i was stacking hymn of resto+niv's melody of preservation/3 pulses of mana song. Iksar regen+fungi+regrowth+hymn+niv's, he was getting close to 100hp regen ticks. That means a lot of cannis and with mana song on top of that, he kept 4 melee hasted and buffed + slow on all mobs + main healing with greater heal. Constant pulls too.

Me not meleeing was the right way to play, in that particular case.

[maskedmelon]

I agree, and i'll even add that the real usefulness of bard epic is the singing modifier. It's the only item in the game that improves song based on singing. Every other instruments has a batter modifier than the epic, which is 18.

Since slow/snare/mana regen cannot be improved by any instruments, the only thing bard epic gives is a better snare/debuff with the 51 song and slightly better mana regen with the lvl 32 mana song. It has a nice 55% haste proc with stats though, so if there is no chanter in the group, you can switch chorus of celerity for something else.

Earlier this week i was in a LCY group in KC. warrior/monk/monk/rogue/rogue/shaman and me. Shaman was main healing with greater heal because he was 52. No clarity. How did he do that? Because i wasn't meleeing.

When i wasn't mezzing, i was stacking hymn of resto+niv's melody of preservation/3 pulses of mana song. Iksar regen+fungi+regrowth+hymn+niv's, he was getting close to 100hp regen ticks. That means a lot of cannis and with mana song on top of that, he kept 4 melee hasted and buffed + slow on all mobs + main healing with greater heal. Constant pulls too.

Me not meleeing was the right way to play, in that particular case.

No it wasn't, admit it. You should have been pulling like a good bard ^^

[Arteker]

I agree, and i'll even add that the real usefulness of bard epic is the singing modifier. It's the only item in the game that improves song based on singing. Every other instruments has a batter modifier than the epic, which is 18.

Since slow/snare/mana regen cannot be improved by any instruments, the only thing bard epic gives is a better snare/debuff with the 51 song and slightly better mana regen with the lvl 32 mana song. It has a nice 55% haste proc with stats though, so if there is no chanter in the group, you can switch chorus of celerity for something else.

Earlier this week i was in a LCY group in KC. warrior/monk/monk/rogue/rogue/shaman and me. Shaman was main healing with greater heal because he was 52. No clarity. How did he do that? Because i wasn't meleeing.

When i wasn't mezzing, i was stacking hymn of resto+niv's melody of preservation/3 pulses of mana song. Iksar regen+fungi+regrowth+hymn+niv's, he was getting close to 100hp regen ticks. That means a lot of cannis and with mana song on top of that, he kept 4 melee hasted and buffed + slow on all mobs + main healing with greater heal. Constant pulls too.

Me not meleeing was the right way to play, in that particular case.
^^ got the right idea about bard, problem with bards is always the same 75% lvled ultra fast thanks pb aoing , once they reach 52, and u ran od easy zones( bw isnt that easy) and try to grp they often fail big time or turn into mana song/haste bots most time.
again thats not a trouble of the class, is a trouble of the player like always has been.

[Itap]

There comes a point in a bards life, much like a shaman, when he/she needs to stop with the melee and stick to casting

[sox7d]

take C/C2 from enchanters
give it to wizards
game is now balance

[sox7d]

take tracking away from bards and druids
give rangers atk buff line 9-60
game is now balance

[sox7d]

disable rogue epic MQ
game is now balance

[sox7d]

let paladin's give group members crits vs undead (shoutout to SoD)
game is now balance

[Alanus]

I don't want to hear anyone whine about their class being underpowered unless they leveled a paladin to 60 pre-velious. Pre-velious paladins were worse tanks than rogues and monks with more HP, stuns and root. Once celestial cleansing and the defensive upgrades came out, paladins were a lot better, but pre-velious, they got the shaft hard.

Planes of Power more than made up for it, though. Slay undead + high damage weapon was insane.