An alternative to variance

[Troubled]

http://i.imgur.com/Rb8KwHi.jpg

Variance = socking. The GMs hate it and laugh at us, but everyone knows there's no way around it. No matter what, you have socking.

My suggestion is removing variance so the socking goes to a minimum. That's really all I can think of.

Any good ideas?

[Susvain2]

http://i.imgur.com/motFhrH.jpg

[Troubled]

Shit looks pathetic as fuck. Is there another way?

[ArumTP]

Not raid~ not sock~ rotate in R~. These are your options.

[Ella`Ella]

Shit looks pathetic as fuck. Is there another way?

Ban Chest and everything else should just fall into place.

[Troubled]

Ban Chest and everything else should just fall into place.

An honest and acceptable answer. Any other ideas before this is officially invoked?

[Sirken]

replace all raid spawns with completely random earthquakes that may or may not ever happen. :D

[arsenalpow]

http://i.imgur.com/9mLLIFN.png

[khanable]

Been a fan of the removal/massive reduction of variance for a long time now.

+/-30 minutes is sufficient, still need a degree of randomness in there

[Ella`Ella]

replace all raid spawns with completely random earthquakes that may or may not ever happen. :D

All FFA

[khanable]

All FFA

[Xekk]

What about reducing spawn times and having lockouts for the guilds?

If guilds aren't fighting over the spawns, socking isn't necessary.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Any good ideas?

Yes. Obviously, the universal answer is to implement Defiant gear.

Defiant gear dropping from regular mobs and outclassing current VP gear will render current gear useless, thus eliminating the need for raiding.

Let's be honest here. People don't raid because they like it. They raid for the loot. Take away the loot, you take away the main reason for raiding.

That way, when Velious is going to be over and p99 will be in Luclin/PoP, everyone will have the best gear in the game, making it easier to play the game as it is meant to be played; groups and friendships instead of everyone calling each other ******s and faggots.

[ArumTP]

1/3 pre-spawn trash talking, 1/3 fte spamming, 1/3 trash talking when you get it. That is what raiding is. Sometimes you actually will get some loot you want.

[Pint]

replace all raid spawns with completely random earthquakes that may or may not ever happen. :D

Asgard signs

[Zoesha]

lol at your tell window -- Tass trying to kill some fools.

[ruidian]

What if the variance window was HUGE? As in, a mob could respawn anywhere from 3-10 days from time of kill. Would people still sock then?

[khanable]

What if the variance window was HUGE? As in, a mob could respawn anywhere from 3-10 days from time of kill. Would people still sock then?

IIRC Tuesday was the glorious patch day. Set Tuesday as the marker for a "new week".


7 day spawns can spawn randomly between that Tuesday and next. 3 day spawns spawn twice within that time period, etc.

Fuck it, lets see how deep these socks can go!

[-Catherin-]

1/3 pre-spawn trash talking, 1/3 fte spamming, 1/3 trash talking when you get it. That is what raiding is. Sometimes you actually will get some loot you want.

You forgot winning lawyerquest after the fact so that you don't have the loot deleted plus suspension

[myriverse]

http://i.imgur.com/9mLLIFN.png
For a second, I read that as Jesus Christ.

[Daldaen]

replace all raid spawns with completely random earthquakes that may or may not ever happen. :D

Remove Variance, and players will know exact spawn timer. Then GMs limit to 2 players from each guild in zone. (Instead of 2 trackers + 592058 Neckbeards at entrance... just say 2 in zone at time of spawn).

You will see more guilds participating in the raid scene if this occurs. You don't have to waste 16 hours tracking a mob. You spend the time buffing camping out, then the 5-15min raid encounter and its done. Less wasted time, more guilds participating, more CLASSIC.

I don't understand any bad aspect to this.

OR your super secret announcement may be just that, only earthquakes happening! That would be fine too. Just randomly deathtouch the guys who sit on VP Pad or bladestoppered warriors sitting at KC entrance who poopsock a sim repop. Those individuals need help.

[Bolix]

we must have the bug bad if we are happy to poopsock like this!

Options:
1. GM enforced rotations
2. double (or triple) the number of boss mobs
3. instanced raid zones (/duck the wave of abuse)
4. hope that velious makes everything better
5. behave like civilized adults and come to an agreement on how we can share


Do we actually enjoy this? Camping out in zones, tracking mobs, batphones, poopsocking to the max, lawyerquest, coh-ducking?

Racing and being competitive is fine, I get it. But 100+ people in KC waiting for a spawn is just silly.

[Freakish]

Add ' raid tokens' to every single lvl 45+ mob in game. Flat drop rate percentages, tweaked in zones where people do AE so they won't just be ae'd for.

Add npcs where every raid mob pops. Every 100 tokens turned in, this npc will spawn that raid mob. Tokens tradeable. NPCs have a reduced respawn, but still respawn faster than normal weekly respawn. You can still race if you want.

Glaring Problem: This fixes kunark which is dumb with velious so close.

[Thulack]

Yes. Obviously, the universal answer is to implement Defiant gear.

Defiant gear dropping from regular mobs and outclassing current VP gear will render current gear useless, thus eliminating the need for raiding.

Let's be honest here. People don't raid because they like it. They raid for the loot. Take away the loot, you take away the main reason for raiding.

That way, when Velious is going to be over and p99 will be in Luclin/PoP, everyone will have the best gear in the game, making it easier to play the game as it is meant to be played; groups and friendships instead of everyone calling each other ******s and faggots.

Nope. People would still need to make their epeen large so they would have to take down those pixeled dragons to make themselves feel better.

[Thulack]

Add ' raid tokens' to every single lvl 45+ mob in game. Flat drop rate percentages, tweaked in zones where people do AE so they won't just be ae'd for.

Add npcs where every raid mob pops. Every 100 tokens turned in, this npc will spawn that raid mob. Tokens tradeable. NPCs have a reduced respawn, but still respawn faster than normal weekly respawn. You can still race if you want.

Glaring Problem: This fixes kunark which is dumb with velious so close.

We going back to Diablo 2 with SoJ handins?

[criddopher]

Just don't go? Set an agreement with other guilds not to do it... im sure they hate it too

[Raev]

Shit looks pathetic as fuck. Is there another way?

BDA blows up rotation. BDA complains about results. Nothing to see here.

[Ella`Ella]

BDA blows up rotation. BDA complains about results. Nothing to see here.

BDA din do nuffin'. It was Chest. All Chest. The rest were "just following orders."

[Ando]

I seem to remember there being a server without Variance, or FTE, or rotations....

Hmm, what could that server have been called?

[Ravager]

replace all raid spawns with completely random earthquakes that may or may not ever happen. :D

Do it. Virtually everyone agrees this is when they have the most fun raiding.

[Troubled]

BDA blows up rotation. BDA complains about results. Nothing to see here.

It was an FFA mob, but thanks for being dumb as always.

[Crom]

replace all raid spawns with completely random earthquakes that may or may not ever happen. :D

/this!

[ArumTP]

It was an FFA mob, but thanks for being dumb as always.

Some guilds would still sock there, but people would not feel obligations to HAVE to because they might be up in the next rotation.

[Man0warr]

People would do both, like usual.

[Bristlebaner]

Remove all raid mobs - install a vending machine in EC tunnel near Shady. Load all loot on that vending machine with varying prices based on rarity.

Also - allow purchases of lvl 60 toons for $799.99.

[Raev]

It was an FFA mob, but thanks for being dumb as always.

You know, BDA is less competent than a lot of guilds on the server, but what really makes you stand out is your inimitable inability to judge that incompetence. A kindergartner could connect the dots here: BDA blows up rotation, R guilds adapt to situation, everyone starts poopsocking more, BDA loses VS to Indignation, BDA tries to get it back with the next FFA mob. And yet not only do you utterly fail to grasp simple cause and effect, but you proudly flaunt your stupidity by calling out people who can.

[Sun Feb 22 08:44:37 2015] Theraflu says out of character, 'the best part about you raev is how bad you are'

Bregan D`Aerth is under raid suspension from the next Class R Severilous

[Man0warr]

You know, BDA is less competent than a lot of guilds on the server, but what really makes you stand out is your inimitable inability to judge that incompetence. A kindergartner could connect the dots here: BDA blows up rotation, R guilds adapt to situation, everyone starts poopsocking more, BDA loses VS to Indignation, BDA tries to get it back with the next FFA mob. And yet not only do you utterly fail to grasp simple cause and effect, but you proudly flaunt your stupidity by calling out people who can.



VS FFA is a coin flip, so really has nothing to do with competence. All you need is 18ish people as long as you get FTE. Didn't see anyone talking about Indig, pretty sure we grats'd all around. We try almost every FFA mob that falls in a good window, had nothing to do with losing VS to Indignation.

That said, Rampage and BDA were the only ones that actually got a FTEr Cothed in time this morning - Kegulas beat our tank by milliseconds. That's all it takes. The other 5-6 raid entities there didn't even have a shot.

I also recall you saying A-team would compete and destroy everyone with small numbers in the new Class R ffa scene - it took you less than a month to merge your dying guild.

[Nirgon]

snortle @ all this

[Juryiel]

Any good ideas?

Best idea: Player rotation.

# of times I poopsocked anything prior to rotation blowing up: 0.

We had 1/3 rd of mobs not require any socking for a year, and the players decided to do away with it. They actively chose to bring back socking to that 1/3 rd of mobs so they can have a shot at getting a few more mobs.

I think now without the rotation many more guilds are actually trying FFA mobs compared to before. E.g. in a small guild, the amount of stuff from the rotation was plenty, and did not really need to do FFA. Now, since Class R is poopsocking, it makes much less difference to poopsock an FFA or an R mob compared to the difference between FFA and R before. The FFA mob just has more possible guilds, so lower odds, but doesn't lock you out of R mobs so it's often worth it.

Basically increased poopsocking in R and at FFA spawns is a direct result of the collapse of the rotation.

[Littlegyno 13.0]

dis thread is sick.

[Clark]

Ban Chest and everything else should just fall into place.

[Daldaen]

Rotation should come back with common sense changes.

You ally on any mob, you all drop to the bottom of rotation list.

OR

No allying is allowed, if you wish to have multiple guilds partake in a kill, those guilds need to share a slot in the rotation.

^ This would be an immense improvement to the current and past situations.

[contemptor]

You know, BDA is less competent than a lot of guilds on the server, but what really makes you stand out is your inimitable inability to judge that incompetence. A kindergartner could connect the dots here: BDA blows up rotation, R guilds adapt to situation, everyone starts poopsocking more, BDA loses VS to Indignation, BDA tries to get it back with the next FFA mob. And yet not only do you utterly fail to grasp simple cause and effect, but you proudly flaunt your stupidity by calling out people who can.

[Sun Feb 22 08:44:37 2015] Theraflu says out of character, 'the best part about you raev is how bad you are'
I love you man, but you are as big of a hypocrit as anyone on these boards. Enjoy your zerg.

[Juryiel]

Rotation should come back with common sense changes.

You ally on any mob, you all drop to the bottom of rotation list.

OR

No allying is allowed, if you wish to have multiple guilds partake in a kill, those guilds need to share a slot in the rotation.

^ This would be an immense improvement to the current and past situations.


What is the worry you are trying to address with some of those changes? That 3 guilds that cannot kill a mob on their own can kill it together and hold 3 slots? That is quite a legitimate thing to address, but I think it's best addressed differently and more palatably for smaller guilds.


On my server we had a system that addressed your concerns much more elegantly. First each mob's rotation is a separate thing. A guild not on the class R rotation for a particular mob should be free to FFA any pop of that class R mob for which they are not locked out, but they must do so solo (or with their alliance with which they will share a rotation spot). Once successful in downing a mob they are added to the rotation for that mob, but on any subsequent kills can bring whoever they want, in or out of their alliance, no questions asked. It makes sense that guilds can ally if they have low numbers on a particular day or at a particular time, rather than losing their 1 shot for months on a mob. Without that, FFA becomes better for them since they have more chances for the mob to spawn when they DO have people on.

Then, to address your concerns in that system, if class R guilds feel that one of them cannot kill the mobs for which it is taking up slots solo (say, due to some change in their membership), you can vote to have them tested, and removed from the rotation if they fail twice. The test would work by requiring the guild to kill a mob solo (the guild can still opt to kill the mob with guests twice, but that would remove them from the rotation after that). But this is a double-edged sword because the guild kicked from the rotation can then FFA any spawn of that mob they choose, until they successfully solo kill it again (at which point they go back on rotation). That means they can try every single spawn starting immediately after the time they got kicked, which would have been immediately after their rotation turn. This way if the guild is actually capable and you were wrong to call them out, they may get an extra mob, they wouldn't have otherwise. If you were right, they are no longer holding a spot on the rotation, and although this allows them to FFA, you don't expect them to be a serious threat until such a time when they become capable and deserve to be let back on to the rotation. This also allows capable guilds to ally with whomever they want in this system without causing issues, since they have already demonstrated they can hold their own spot without guests.

I'm sure there are other similar and sensible solutions that don't require every raid force to be available 24/7 which is the sort of thing that then leads to poopsocking (if you have people 24/7 you need to go after everything to maintain them).

Besides, the reason rotation fell apart was the gatekeeper situation, and the whole 1 hour window after pop (which means you basically have to be ready enough at all times in the day to where poopsocking and FFA become not much different). I think basically everyone I talked to agreed that the worry you bring up does need to be addressed in some way. So I'm not convinced that even addressing your concern would restore the rotation. Basically I think people just got tired of sharing when the sharing list became 10 guilds long.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/60529240.jpg

[arsenalpow]

Basically I think people just got tired of sharing when the sharing list became 10 guilds long.
No, it died because smaller guilds were abusing the system and refused any sort of reform.*





*blame it on BDA

[Pint]

No, it died because smaller guilds were abusing the system and refused any sort of reform.*





*blame it on BDA

lol, chest so full of shit. why dont you open up the fap forum archives and let ppl see how the small guilds vs big guilds played out in reality and stop spewing bullshit.

[arsenalpow]

lol, chest so full of shit. why dont you open up the fap forum archives and let ppl see how the small guilds vs big guilds played out in reality and stop spewing bullshit.

The reality was Taken/Div wanted a much tighter system, the small guilds wanted a very forgiving system, BDA played moderator. For a year the loose system was employed. Once it became clear there were some serious flaws in the system BDA re-evaluated our position and pushed for reform to fix the system and to prepare our guild for velious, those views happened to fall more in line with taken and divs thoughts.

The rotation fell apart because the small guilds would rather fight for loot then agree to the reformed system. The facts don't change just because you dislike how it went down.

[norova]

http://i.imgur.com/9mLLIFN.png

Made that last night during the sock. I've got a call scheduled with a local car graphics place tomorrow to have my '94 Ford Escort vinyl wrapped with it. We need more people on this server who are truly serious about playing the game. This place is starting to fall; do your part to keep it alive.

[Troubled]

There's a whole RNF board dedicated to spreading lies about Chest.

This topic is about brainstorming to stop socking. I don't want all the goddamn mobs in Velious to have bullshit windows.

[Daldaen]

Your idea seems unnecessarily complicated.

Agreeing to drop every guild, who gets a lockout on a mob, to the bottom of the rotation is extremely logical. You ally up to kill a mob, you get a lockout, you drop down.

If you don't have a raid force 24/7, that is part of being in a casual guild. You need to be willing to accept allying on harder mobs like Trakanon or Cazic Thule when they happen to spawn at 3AM. Or you need to be willing to recruit more or merge to foster a large enough attendance 24/7 to kill mobs solo if you wish to occupy a solo slot on each mobs rotation list.

Guilds being allowed to ally, get a kill, enjoy the experience of that raid, get some nice loot/epic pieces, then a month later, having moved from slot 3 to slot 1 in the rotation and getting to kill that same mob, twice in the time many other guilds who kill it by themselves, kill it once.

The gatekeeper situation and the 1 hour to kill were retarded. On at least one occasion BDA didn't meet the 1 hour kill timer on a 7AM Gorenaire (after wiping once with a force of about 25). Taken ended up killing it probably 90min after spawn I think.

[Mon Mar 02 07:29:36 2015] Welcome to EverQuest!
[Mon Mar 02 08:31:32 2015] You have slain Gorenaire!

That being said. FFA and 1 hour to kill are HUGELY different. Having to sit and stare at a wall for 16 hours with a mage + tagger + extras, vs. Checking track every 30min and batphoning to get a force present. VS died within 3 minutes of spawn and was FTE'd within 15 seconds of spawn today when FFA. Having an hour is a vastly different situation. 3 Hours until the rotation is void is more than fair enough (which is what it used to be)

The sharing list wouldn't be 10 guilds if those who allied dropped to the bottom... At least not for mobs people care about. Draco/Maestro/Talendor may be 10 deep.

One thing that would make Class R super cool, is if Class R spawns could have their variance reduced down to 1-2 hours (if it won't make it go away entirely). Make it MUCH more palatable for Class R guilds. Either by having Rogean code the variance to be based on the class the mob will spawn in next. IF Class R -> 1 hour, IF FFA -> 4 hours. IF Class C -> 96 hours. Or have Sirken go and look at the 4-5 Class R mob's tentative spawn times and post a 2 hour window.

Cause Variance is retarded.

[Juryiel]

No, it died because smaller guilds were abusing the system and refused any sort of reform.*





*blame it on BDA

I'm not blaming it on BDA or anyone, I was just proposing agreements that have worked in the past to address the issues BDA and larger R guilds had that were valid, with which many of the smaller guilds in fact agreed, contrary to what you claim. A proposal from which maybe you can build common ground.

As far as whose fault, for whatever reason, people couldn't come to an agreement before. It's on both sides to come to an agreement, not just on BDA, though BDA did make that difficult with the whole ultimatum business. I think blaming it on 'smaller guilds' is also disingenuous given that the proposal that caused it to fail was posted in the public forum for all to see exactly why it failed, and I personally saw a number of revisions as well. But what I DO know is that the many of the specific reasons in the proposal that BDA repeatedly highlighted were concessions that most smaller guilds I talked to were willing to make. The stuff they had problems with was the 1 hour window and the Gorenaire being a gatekeeper type stuff. To put it into perspective, the thing that was proposed as the new rotation rules was so bad to them that they would rather move to class C (Asgard), fold (MC), or merge (A-Team) rather than be part of that. That says a lot. To the smaller guilds, the current state of class R and the raid scene is preferable to the proposal that brought down the rotation, which was issued with an ultimatum rather than discussion. So just putting it off as "Oh smaller guilds wanted more loot, simple as that!" is missing the point by a mile. Whether it's against class C or smaller guilds, I guess your strong suit has never really been to see things from another's perspective without vilifying it.

Anyway not really interested in rehashing that old discussion. The point is, players on both sides can propose self-interested agreements with ultimatums all day, and if they do, we find ourselves pooping in a sock. Want poopsocking to end? At a minimum try to find common ground with those same players who ALSO want poopsocking to end. A good first step to achieving that is to stop seeing them as evil lootwhores with grabby hands. If we can't even do that, then pull out your sock and wait for VS :P

[contemptor]

Your idea seems unnecessarily complicated.

Agreeing to drop every guild, who gets a lockout on a mob, to the bottom of the rotation is extremely logical. You ally up to kill a mob, you get a lockout, you drop down.

If you don't have a raid force 24/7, that is part of being in a casual guild. You need to be willing to accept allying on harder mobs like Trakanon or Cazic Thule when they happen to spawn at 3AM. Or you need to be willing to recruit more or merge to foster a large enough attendance 24/7 to kill mobs solo if you wish to occupy a solo slot on each mobs rotation list.

Guilds being allowed to ally, get a kill, enjoy the experience of that raid, get some nice loot/epic pieces, then a month later, having moved from slot 3 to slot 1 in the rotation and getting to kill that same mob, twice in the time many other guilds who kill it by themselves, kill it once.

The gatekeeper situation and the 1 hour to kill were retarded. On at least one occasion BDA didn't meet the 1 hour kill timer on a 7AM Gorenaire (after wiping once with a force of about 25). Taken ended up killing it probably 90min after spawn I think.

[Mon Mar 02 07:29:36 2015] Welcome to EverQuest!
[Mon Mar 02 08:31:32 2015] You have slain Gorenaire!

That being said. FFA and 1 hour to kill are HUGELY different. Having to sit and stare at a wall for 16 hours with a mage + tagger + extras, vs. Checking track every 30min and batphoning to get a force present. VS died within 3 minutes of spawn and was FTE'd within 15 seconds of spawn today when FFA. Having an hour is a vastly different situation. 3 Hours until the rotation is void is more than fair enough (which is what it used to be)

The sharing list wouldn't be 10 guilds if those who allied dropped to the bottom... At least not for mobs people care about. Draco/Maestro/Talendor may be 10 deep.

One thing that would make Class R super cool, is if Class R spawns could have their variance reduced down to 1-2 hours (if it won't make it go away entirely). Make it MUCH more palatable for Class R guilds. Either by having Rogean code the variance to be based on the class the mob will spawn in next. IF Class R -> 1 hour, IF FFA -> 4 hours. IF Class C -> 96 hours. Or have Sirken go and look at the 4-5 Class R mob's tentative spawn times and post a 2 hour window.

Cause Variance is retarded.
In fairness, variance isn't retarded in itself. If people were reasonable, it wouldn't be so bad. The response to variance is retarded. But that's how it is :dunno:

[Daldaen]

No. Variance by itself is retarded.

Variance = Not Classic

Not Classic = Retarded

[Juryiel]

Your idea seems unnecessarily complicated.

Agreeing to drop every guild, who gets a lockout on a mob, to the bottom of the rotation is extremely logical. You ally up to kill a mob, you get a lockout, you drop down.

If you don't have a raid force 24/7, that is part of being in a casual guild. You need to be willing to accept allying on harder mobs like Trakanon or Cazic Thule when they happen to spawn at 3AM. Or you need to be willing to recruit more or merge to foster a large enough attendance 24/7 to kill mobs solo if you wish to occupy a solo slot on each mobs rotation list.

Guilds being allowed to ally, get a kill, enjoy the experience of that raid, get some nice loot/epic pieces, then a month later, having moved from slot 3 to slot 1 in the rotation and getting to kill that same mob, twice in the time many other guilds who kill it by themselves, kill it once.

The gatekeeper situation and the 1 hour to kill were retarded. On at least one occasion BDA didn't meet the 1 hour kill timer on a 7AM Gorenaire (after wiping once with a force of about 25). Taken ended up killing it probably 90min after spawn I think.

[Mon Mar 02 07:29:36 2015] Welcome to EverQuest!
[Mon Mar 02 08:31:32 2015] You have slain Gorenaire!

That being said. FFA and 1 hour to kill are HUGELY different. Having to sit and stare at a wall for 16 hours with a mage + tagger + extras, vs. Checking track every 30min and batphoning to get a force present. VS died within 3 minutes of spawn and was FTE'd within 15 seconds of spawn today when FFA. Having an hour is a vastly different situation. 3 Hours until the rotation is void is more than fair enough (which is what it used to be)

The sharing list wouldn't be 10 guilds if those who allied dropped to the bottom... At least not for mobs people care about. Draco/Maestro/Talendor may be 10 deep.

One thing that would make Class R super cool, is if Class R spawns could have their variance reduced down to 1-2 hours (if it won't make it go away entirely). Make it MUCH more palatable for Class R guilds. Either by having Rogean code the variance to be based on the class the mob will spawn in next. IF Class R -> 1 hour, IF FFA -> 4 hours. IF Class C -> 96 hours. Or have Sirken go and look at the 4-5 Class R mob's tentative spawn times and post a 2 hour window.

Cause Variance is retarded.

Logical or not, if a smaller guild can't get an ally because a larger guild doesn't want to give up its spot, and misses it rotation slot and has to wait a month, that guild will start wanting to break out of the rotation. Just imagine a guild that has a raid force for maybe 4 hours a day. Unless the rotation slot affords them a 24 hour window in which to kill, without alliances FFA begins to look better than the rotation. Only 17% chance that the mob they want will spawn in their window, and a month's wait if it doesn't. It's not that the smaller guild itself may not want to do it, but other guilds who could serve as allies for a particular kill may not. And again, the goal of a rotation agreement is to make FFA Class R worse for everyone involved. Not allowing people who have ALREADY PROVEN they can take down a mob on their own doesn't accomplish anything other than trying to force them to have a larger guild that spans more time zones. For many guilds, FFA Class R is more appealing than that.


The ruleset we had regarding guilds holding slots was super simple actually. Much simpler to the type of stuff generated by this server anyway and especially those proposals by BDA :P

0. If not on rotatoin for a mob, try to FFA it to your heart's content
1. Kill mob solo (or as a raiding alliance of many guilds), you (entire alliance involved in kill) are now bound by rotation and have earned a single slot. Each player and guild can only be in one slot for each mob.
2. Once on rotation, kill mob however you wish, with whatever guilds you want. You earned it!
3. Fail to kill a mob twice, your slot may be revoked, you're back to FFA status if that happens and may attempt to get back on the rotation at your convenience.

The rules play out nicely because there's incentive for big guilds to WANT to keep small but capable guilds on the rotation (or else these guilds can FFA), but raiding entities that are not capable of solo kill do not get a slot. Essentially, the moment a raiding entity becomes capable of killing a target it becomes bound to rotate that target, and prior to being able to kill said target solo it does not take any loots. If it becomes unable to kill that target it drops out of the rotation again.

[Daldaen]

Well then I disagree with you.

If your guild can only kill a mob between 6PM-10PM, you shouldn't have a slot on a rotation where mobs are spawning in 16 hour windows. And it certainly shouldn't be a solo slot.

You should find a guild that can bolster your numbers for the other 20 hours, so that collectively you can kill mobs for more hours of the window. If you absolutely cannot find a guild/people to cover the graveyard hours of 3-6AM, or euros or aussies... then so be it. You just should have to pass on that mob and drop down to the bottom of the rotation for missing your kill.

The whole argument smaller guilds have made, is that being forced to track entire 16 hour windows requires them to conform to a playstyle which they don't have any interest in. Them losing out on their rotation slot because a mob spawns at 3AM and they don't have a force won't push these guilds to break rotation and go full FFA. Cause the FFA playstyle is one most of them don't wish to partake in. At least not in the state it exists on this server.

That aside - Get rid of Variance entirely or drop it down to something miniscule to remove some autofiring cothing folk, put in place a 2-Player per guild limit in zone when mobs spawn. Let the scene sort itself out over the next few weeks and assess the situation.

Variance wastes so much time for people and rewards people who stare at a wall for 16 hours straight not doing anything but staring, waiting. Playing the game should reward you. Staring at a wall shouldn't.

[Juryiel]

Well then I disagree with you.

If your guild can only kill a mob between 6PM-10PM, you shouldn't have a slot on a rotation where mobs are spawning in 16 hour windows. And it certainly shouldn't be a solo slot.

You should find a guild that can bolster your numbers for the other 20 hours, so that collectively you can kill mobs for more hours of the window.

You assume a large guild is desired. I don't want that, I want to be part of a small but capable guild. I don't want to be part of a guild that has a billion people at all hours of the day. If you are saying that being part of such a guild means I can't go after Trak under reasonable conditions and chances of success in your rotation, I will just choose to FFA.

Which as you can see is what happened :P You aren't really giving me a choice. You are saying make a guild like the one YOU want to be in, or else don't have a reasonable shot at Trak, even though I can kill him if he spawns when I'm on.

I think you see rotations as some sort of reward for being large or capable. Rotations instead should exist to bind people capable of killing a mob from doing it at their own accord. To bind them so that they only get one turn, and that turn is known so everyone knows when to make time for their rotation slots. It's a concession every single guild on the rotation makes so they don't have to do things like poopsocking.

[Daldaen]

You assume a large guild is desired. I don't want that, I want to be part of a small but capable guild. I don't want to be part of a guild that has a billion people at all hours of the day. If you are saying that being part of such a guild means I can't go after Trak under reasonable conditions and chances of success in your rotation, I will just choose to FFA.

Which as you can see is what happened :P You aren't really giving me a choice. You are saying make a guild like the one YOU want to be in, or else don't have a reasonable shot at Trak, even though I can kill him if he spawns when I'm on.

I think you see rotations as some sort of reward for being large or capable. Rotations instead should exist to bind people capable of killing a mob from doing it at their own accord. To bind them so that they only get one turn, and that turn is known so everyone knows when to make time for their rotation slots. It's a concession every single guild on the rotation makes so they don't have to do things like poopsocking.

What I am saying is, no, your guild of 25 players, should not have a single slot on Trakanon if you can only kill him between the hours of 6PM-10PM.

If you want to kill Trakanon, and you want to stay in your guild of 25 players, then enter an alliance and kill it together whenever it spawns (and all the allying guilds drop to the bottom of the rotation on a successful kill) or share a single rotation slot among multiple guilds.

The alpha version of the rotation had what you desire. Guilds who only killed mobs during their desired 6-10PM windows were able to declare "Blackout Hours". Which meant if a mob spawned in an hour not favorable for them, they were able to hold their top spot on the rotation, then the responsibility fell on the 2nd or 3rd guild in the rotation to kill the mob. Some spawns would go 2-3 spawns with it spawning at crappy hours and then they would keep staying at the top of the rotation until it spawned at a good hour for them. That was absolutely fucking retarded and unfair to the other guilds who had to take those shittier hour respawn.

This server will never be favorable for what you want to happen. Never will you be able to just get a mob to spawn at 3AM and wait until 7PM when everyone is home from work to kill it. You can either get bodies to kill it at around 6-9 AM (3-6hour was about the maximum the previous system allowed) or you can not kill it by then but drop to the bottom of the rotation due to missing your kill.

[Juryiel]

What I am saying is, no, your guild of 25 players, should not have a single slot on Trakanon if you can only kill him between the hours of 6PM-10PM.

If you want to kill Trakanon, and you want to stay in your guild of 25 players, then enter an alliance and kill it together whenever it spawns (and all the allying guilds drop to the bottom of the rotation on a successful kill) or share a single rotation slot among multiple guilds.

The alpha version of the rotation had what you desire. Guilds who only killed mobs during their desired 6-10PM windows were able to declare "Blackout Hours". Which meant if a mob spawned in an hour not favorable for them, they were able to hold their top spot on the rotation, then the responsibility fell on the 2nd or 3rd guild in the rotation to kill the mob. Some spawns would go 2-3 spawns with it spawning at crappy hours and then they would keep staying at the top of the rotation until it spawned at a good hour for them. That was absolutely fucking retarded and unfair to the other guilds who had to take those shittier hour respawn.

This server will never be favorable for what you want to happen. Never will you be able to just get a mob to spawn at 3AM and wait until 7PM when everyone is home from work to kill it. You can either get bodies to kill it at around 6-9 AM (3-6hour was about the maximum the previous system allowed) or you can not kill it by then but drop to the bottom of the rotation due to missing your kill.

But again you assume there are alliances to be had indefinitely. If I want to ally with someone but no one else wants to because they are either locked out or don't want to use up their slot, are you saying I shouldn't go after Trak then? If you say that, i understand where you're coming from, and don't begrudge you. And I hope you understand when I decide to FFA Trak the moment it spawns during the time my people are on. Soon enough that leads to a poopsock situation.

Basically I just think a rotation is not sustainable if entities capable of killing a mob exist but are not able to actually get kills because of rotation constraints. So for any ruleset to be sustainable, it'll have to prevent those situations.

Why do you even care about alliances? If Guild A has shown it can solo kill Gore, and guild B has shown it can solo kill gore, why do you care if they help each other just because they can't solo kill gore 24/7?

Also rotation alpha does sound retarded, not at all what I want. I think at the end of the day you are always responsible to find a way to take down your mob during your slot (alliance or otherwise) or rotation moves to the next guild. And failing twice means you lose your slot (as I mentioned). The only exception would be under my ruleset if you allowed a guild not on the rotation to kill the mob instead. The reason being that I like to incentivize allowing new guilds onto the rotation without forcing them to compete (class R through and through :P)

[Daldaen]

You aren't being limited in getting kills due to rotation constraints.

Your own membership's size, and playtime, coupled with stupid 16-hour variance windows are what are inhibiting your guild from killing Trakanon.

The reason I care is because it allowed guilds to get 2 kills in the time others got 1, because getting a kill and lockout wasn't dropping guilds to the bottom of the rotation.

And again, you can suggest these guilds could threaten to go FFA, but they won't. Because they are casual and only have 4-hour windows to work with.

[Juryiel]

You aren't being limited in getting kills due to rotation constraints.

Your own membership's size, and playtime, coupled with stupid 16-hour variance windows are what are inhibiting your guild from killing Trakanon.

The reason I care is because it allowed guilds to get 2 kills in the time others got 1, because getting a kill and lockout wasn't dropping guilds to the bottom of the rotation.

And again, you can suggest these guilds could threaten to go FFA, but they won't. Because they are casual and only have 4-hour windows to work with.

Still makes no sense to me. 2 guilds capable of killing a mob get 2x the kills as 1 guild capable of killing a mob. They get more kills but there's more guilds. Both are assumed to be capable to solo the mob. If you want to participate in more kills you can always ally with guilds too. YOU could be one of the guilds the smaller guild goes to for an alliance friend when they need one, and you can share in the kill and the loot.

As far as FFA, if the class R list is 10 guilds long and a mob spawns once a week, that's 10 weeks. If I get one shot at it every 10 weeks and only have a 17% chance to have it spawn during a time I can kill it (Since I'm barred from an alliance) it is definitely far better for me to try my hand at FFA. If my guild is competitive during those 4 hours we're on, we'll surely get more that way. And even if we don't, we'll at least have the fun of trying. Getting together to go after a dragon etc.

The FFA thing is not a 'threat', again I think you think of it wrong. It's just that there is no incentive to be bound by the rotation if I'm in that situation. Why woudl I give up the freedom to go after a mob whenever it spawns during my window? What do I get in return for doing that? The rotation slot is not a reward to be given. The rotation slot is a sacrifice from any guild who can kill a mob. They are doing YOU (and other rotation guilds) a favor by being in that slot. If they are not in that slot, all other guilds on the rotation suffer to the point where it can lead to rotation collapse. Maybe such a guild can't outcompete the larger class R guilds, but it probably can outcompete the smaller ones, so yes if they FFA and were actually capable, they would screw up the rotation.

[Troubled]

As far as FFA, if the class R list is 10 guilds long and a mob spawns once a week, that's 10 weeks. If I get one shot at it every 10 weeks and only have a 17% chance to have it spawn during a time I can kill it (Since I'm barred from an alliance) it is definitely far better for me to try my hand at FFA.


Not that I understand what you guys are getting at by talking about the rotation in a thread about FFA variance/socking, but just to clarify, you would get a shot at it once every 30 weeks. R slots come along 1/3 of the time.

The rub was that guilds would gimpatron up for mobs like Gore and disperse for shit like VS, creating actual scenarios where you'd see your shot at the mob once every 30 weeks. It would have been acceptable if all those guilds could kill the rest of the mobs solo, but they couldn't and that's why we introduced gatekeepers in a tiered progression system. Keeping the rotation as is was going to create even MORE smaller guilds to clog it up. We weren't looking to make sure every guild survived. Just wanted to keep things moving along.

Since the fall of the rotation, the health of surviving R guilds has improved and the raid scene has become more competitive, which is a great thing for guilds actually looking to survive winter in the wild west environment that it will undoubtedly be. I know my guild has learned a lot and I can tell others have as well, as well as more people showing up ready to raid FFA targets.


Anyway, I still think ending variance is the only way to stop socking, unless they actually coded in random repops as Sirken mentioned.

[Juryiel]

Not that I understand what you guys are getting at by talking about a rotation in a thread about FFA variance/socking, but just to clarify, you would get a shot at it once every 30 weeks. R slots come along 1/3 of the time.

The rub was that guilds would gimpatron up for mobs like Gore and disperse for shit like VS, creating actual scenarios where you'd see your shot at the mob once every 30 weeks. It would have been acceptable if all those guilds could kill the rest of the mobs solo, but they couldn't and that's why we introduced gatekeepers in a tiered progression system.

I thought the thread was about the best solutions to the poopsocking problem (rotation!) :D

And yeah that number was just to be a simple example (1/10) and not based on server circumstances.

I think the issue with the second point is because guilds are just put on the rotation for all mobs by default. Though, every person I spoke with seemed to appreciate that concern and be willing to come to a reasonable solution (that did not involve making Gore a gatekeeper).

[Troubled]

I thought the thread was about the best solutions to the poopsocking problem (rotation!) :D

And yeah that number was just to be a simple example (1/10) and not based on server circumstances.

I think the issue with the second point is because guilds are just put on the rotation for all mobs by default. Though, every person I spoke with seemed to appreciate that concern and be willing to come to a reasonable solution (that did not involve making Gore a gatekeeper).

The socking problem is not just an R problem which is the only place you can invoke the rotation, making it basically futile as a means to stop all socking.

P.S. We made CT the gatekeeper in the last couple iterations of the proposal.

[Juryiel]

I didn't see every iteration of the proposal, only because the whole ultimatum and short time window thing seemed like a bad approach. Why not even have each mob be its own gatekeeper? I would guess not many people would object to that. At least not of the sort of "Well you are gate keeping an easier mob behind a tougher mob".

Also, GMs can do whatever. Maybe they'll surprise us by abolishing C/R/FFA and make everything into a rotation! I guess I'm not sure what the thread is about. Removing variance is the easiest thing to do but by far not the best. It is definitely the one most likely to get done, but then, that doesn't really require a thread does it? GMs know we sock and that we want lower variance.

PLayer rotation would eliminate socking in R and lower it in FFA (less R guilds would compete in FFA), and no GM intervention is required. So I think it's highly related. You want the GMs to do something to eliminate poopsocking? Why don't you try to do something to at least reduce it first to show GMs how important it is to you? :) Personally, as long as things are FFA I support as large variance as possible, so instead of reducing variance I would make the probability density function for a mob spawning to be uniform, so that a mob has an equal chance to spawn at any point in time. Would love to see people poopsock that. There will be no windows :)

[Pint]

The reality was Taken/Div wanted a much tighter system, the small guilds wanted a very forgiving system, BDA played moderator. For a year the loose system was employed. Once it became clear there were some serious flaws in the system BDA re-evaluated our position and pushed for reform to fix the system and to prepare our guild for velious, those views happened to fall more in line with taken and divs thoughts.

The rotation fell apart because the small guilds would rather fight for loot then agree to the reformed system. The facts don't change just because you dislike how it went down.

Again, open up that fap archive, let everyone see just how it went down.. They're just the facts after all right?

[Culkasi]

replace all raid spawns with completely random earthquakes that may or may not ever happen. :D

I understand why some people glorify this option, but reality is, it will just turn into a 24/7 sock. Guilds that want to see mobs will have to ask their members to camp out on certain raid spawns all the time, and the guilds where people have multiple level 60s will be able to 24/7 sock multiple spawns at the same time, whilst guilds where people are still working on leveling/gearing their characters are out of the game.
With a 16 hour window, even the casualest guilds have a chance to plan for a window and attempt the mob - if we have no idea when the mobs spawn, it'll just be even crazier.

Reality is, that kind of poopsocking happens because guilds choose to do it - they clearly have members that are willing to spend their time on it - hats off to them. We used to have a good class system that seperated those that were wiling to do it, and those that wanted to play the game differently - lets focus on fixing that so it once again denotes that difference, and don't try to fix something, that for the poeple who want this playstyle, is not broken.

[Brocode]

Want to end Socking? Random Spawns with no fixed timers, aka, people cant sock what they dont know when it will happen, but tracking would increase.

Want to end tracking? Make FFA spawn on any dungeon of the game.

Want to make it challengeful? Make different classes of Spawn, not only by guild but first hours can be stronger/weaker than normal.


Just food for thoughts, its not about classic anymore, its about making the raid scene better for the server. And there might be a lot of ideas for the raid enviroment, top guilds will always try to exploit the most of it.

[Daldaen]

If they ever went to random spawn timers I hope they do it the way sim repops are done.

Whenever a mob dpawns a yellow text goes out with an earthquake and the yellow text is specific to the mob who spawns.

"An undead dragon roars from his lair" - Trakanon Spawns
"The sound of bones flying together to create a monstrosity rings in your ears" - Draco spawn
"The God of Hate awakens" - Innoruuk dpawns
Etc.

That way you don't get rewarded for shitting in a sock staring at a wall or spamming track. The entire Server knows it spawned and may choose to contest it if it's a good time for them to do so.

Or they could just move to fully sim repops and we could emulate a Euro server that was going down all the time with tons of server Respawns.

[Llodd]

Again, open up that fap archive, let everyone see just how it went down.. They're just the facts after all right?

Yes please. Could we see how this went down? I assume there's nothing to hide in there? Who has the right to this archive anyway?

[-Catherin-]

Being part of the FAP community (hehuehe) and having quit it right before its collapse, I can pretty much tell you that there was no sort of divine enlightenment obtained within. The discussions that went on were pretty much an embarrassment to everyone involved.

[Llodd]

How about you let the scummy unwashed masses be the judge of that. Can't be any worse than what goes for normality around here anyway, right.

[-Catherin-]

How about you let the scummy unwashed masses be the judge of that. Can't be any worse than what goes for normality around here anyway, right.

True :p

[Daldaen]

Sorry for derailing.

Back on topic. Variance is the spawn of the devil.

Get rid of it and allow normal, non-neckbeards to have a shot to participate in the raid scene. Or go full repop.

[maskedmelon]

What about reducing spawn times and having lockouts for the guilds?

If guilds aren't fighting over the spawns, socking isn't necessary.

This would be the most effective solution outside of instancing, which sucks.

100% random would likely take socking to epic levels unless location was random as well in which case it could create massive zone disruption.

Eliminating variance is the sismplest solution with greatest effect. The most bang for hoe buck as they say. If there is no variance, there is no reason to sock decor perhaps to throw off competitors or to find out spawn times. Otherwise, you a imply log on shortly before the scheduled repop, assemble your force and bash the baddy ^^

You have my vote Dalds ^^

[Ella`Ella]

Ban Chest and everything else should just fall into place.

[maskedmelon]

Being part of the FAP community (hehuehe) and having quit it right before its collapse, I can pretty much tell you that there was no sort of divine enlightenment obtained within. The discussions that went on were pretty much an embarrassment to everyone involved.

What is FAP in this context? (I know what it is in the contemporary context, so no gif explanations please).

[Man0warr]

It was the Class R rotation coalition of guilds.

[-Catherin-]

If you mean what it stood for, I believe it was Federation of Allied Players

but yeah it was the forum where the rotation guilds all communicated (poorly)

[Daldaen]

Freedomlovers Against Poopsocking

[Raev]

Your own membership's size, and playtime, coupled with stupid 16-hour variance windows are what are inhibiting your guild from killing Trakanon.
Yes, but the problem is Trakanon ain't that hard. You can kill him with 15-20 if you have the right class composition and are willing to burn a lot of clickies. After a few months of powerleveling some shared Rog/Wiz accounts the result would be the usual 10 guild lines for every mob except Gorenaire, and that would not have given BDA/Taken/Divinity more pixels.

but reality is, it will just turn into a 24/7 sock
The only solution IMO is to force everyone to start from the same spot, i.e. port them to a random firepot location, strip all of their buffs, and reset them to full HP/mana. Even as a new card-carrying member of Class C I think this + velious would be fucking awesome.

Yes please. Could we see how this went down? I assume there's nothing to hide in there? Who has the right to this archive anyway?

The original BDA proposal was 'no alliances at all, every target must be killed in 1 hour, guilds that were signed up for Gorenaire solo start in 1st tier with every good target, other guilds must qualify by killing Gorenaire'. Their second proposal is on the forums in the Raid Discussion section. Sirken made them change the gatekeeper mob to CT, but with the 1 hour time limit its not that much easier. It also included Talendor as the gatekeeper mob to Maestro IIRC (facepalm). We made what we thought was a very fair counter proposal:


1. There is a tier system.
2. There are dark hours, and alliances are allowed during dark hours, but will come with a soft penalty. Alliances of any sort are not allowed during light hours.
3. The following penalties apply equally to light and dark hour kills (note that the notation '+X' indicates that the guild will drop X slots in the rotation):

-- +1 penalty across the tier for alliances during dark hours. That guild is not required to maintain this alliance for any subsequent kills. (Alliances during light hours are of course not allowed).
-- If you fail to kill your target within 60 minutes (90 minutes for CT), +1 penalty on that target only.
-- If you fail to kill your target within 3 hours: +4 penalty across the tier, +2 across other tiers and the target now become FFA within class R.
-- If class C kills your mob: +4 penalty across all tiers


I still think it's a very elegant proposal and I'm not sure why BDA wouldn't accept it.

As Catherin says, there were also a lot of insults and bullying. The average Class R officer is roughly as immersed as the average Class C member.

[Daldaen]

Penalties, tiers. That shits all dumb.

Rotation for mobs. You ally you all drop to end of rotation, with the guild who was #1 being at very bottom. Or you ally in advance (like Gorenaire) and you share a rotation slot. It's really simple. You kill a mob, you drop down.

But this is all moot since the rotation is exploded and Velious is on the horizon.

Give us 0 Variance and limit to 2 Players in zone on spawn please. That'd be sweet.

[Samoht]

Rotation for mobs. You ally you all drop to end of rotation, with the guild who was #1 being at very bottom. Or you ally in advance (like Gorenaire) and you share a rotation slot. It's really simple. You kill a mob, you drop down.

it's really not that simple. at all.

the issue that rose up was that there were a dozen splits for VS because you don't need to be allied to kill him and 4 splits for gore (nobody needs gore). they wanted to set it up so that you weren't on the list for VS unless you could kill gore so that the VS loot was limited to the higher end of the class R guilds.

they tried to make it into an exclusive club.

the smaller guilds actually had no leverage to compromise, though. they liked to pretend they did. they're going to have to face class R FFA with lockouts instead now. that's probably going to end up meaning less loot overall for them.

[Ravager]

Ban Chest and everything else should just fall into place.

Jokes are always funnier the second time.

[Ravager]

As Catherin says, there were also a lot of insults and bullying. The average Class R officer is roughly as immersed as the average Class C member.

After reading half of what you posted in RnF on the issues, it doesn't seem like you did much to stymie it yourself.

[Ravager]

The best solution is completely not classic, but would give classic feels. All raid mobs should be like Quillmane. Kill Juggs, there's a chance of a Trak pop. Raid Hate, there's a chance that one of the mobs triggers Inny. Raid trash in VP, there's a chance that a dragon there pops.

It would force people to actually play the content instead of training the shit out of each other for a 20 second kill. Make it so the mob is invulnerable for 20 minutes to all but the guild that triggered it.

It's a stupid idea, but it's way more classic feeling and immersive than 16/96 hour poopsock sessions.

[Whirled]

The best solution is completely not classic, but would give classic feels. All raid mobs should be like Quillmane. Kill Juggs, there's a chance of a Trak pop. Raid Hate, there's a chance that one of the mobs triggers Inny. Raid trash in VP, there's a chance that a dragon there pops.

It would force people to actually play the content instead of training the shit out of each other for a 20 second kill. Make it so the mob is invulnerable for 20 minutes to all but the guild that triggered it.

It's a stupid idea, but it's way more classic feeling and immersive than 16/96 hour poopsock sessions.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/57/ba/93/57ba93ef9e77e04466b15eb5c3eaff11.jpg

[Detoxx]

The answer is 96 hour windows again. Cant poopsock that.

[-Catherin-]

The answer is 96 hour windows again. Class R Cant poopsock that.

FTFY

[Detoxx]

FTFY

You're absolutely insane if you think us or Rampage would sit on the VP pad or any other spot for 4 days. It was like that before and it never happened. also:

[Sun Apr 05 09:32:44 2015] ---------------------------
/who ramp
[Sun Apr 05 09:32:44 2015] There are 23 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 08:44:43 2015] Players on EverQuest:
/who the mystical
[Sun Apr 05 08:44:43 2015] There are 24 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 09:36:40 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:36:40 2015] ---------------------------
/who bregan
[Sun Apr 05 09:36:41 2015] There are 22 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 09:53:58 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:53:58 2015] ---------------------------
/who taken
[Sun Apr 05 09:53:59 2015] There are 55 players in Karnor's Castle.

You guys are, and always were, the real poopsockers.

[Ravager]

You're absolutely insane if you think us or Rampage would sit on the VP pad or any other spot for 4 days. It was like that before and it never happened. also:

[Sun Apr 05 09:32:44 2015] ---------------------------
/who ramp
[Sun Apr 05 09:32:44 2015] There are 23 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 08:44:43 2015] Players on EverQuest:
/who the mystical
[Sun Apr 05 08:44:43 2015] There are 24 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 09:36:40 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:36:40 2015] ---------------------------
/who bregan
[Sun Apr 05 09:36:41 2015] There are 22 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 09:53:58 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:53:58 2015] ---------------------------
/who taken
[Sun Apr 05 09:53:59 2015] There are 55 players in Karnor's Castle.

You guys are, and always were, the real poopsockers.

I'm reminded of the duct tape exploit and 200 people poopsocking VS well beyond the 96 hour window when Rogean put in extended windows.

[Man0warr]

Most BDA actually went to bed between 2am and about 8am for the VS sock. Was surprised he still had an hour left in window so called for the socks to be put back on.

Kegulas barely beat our guy in the end, but that's VS.

[Seltius]

replace all raid spawns with completely random earthquakes that may or may not ever happen. :D



I like this but throw in a Variance of +/-12 hrs then have everything repop at once.

[Juryiel]

the smaller guilds actually had no leverage to compromise, though. they liked to pretend they did. they're going to have to face class R FFA with lockouts instead now. that's probably going to end up meaning less loot overall for them.

The 2 main reasons for reduced leverage from smaller guilds is 1) because in an interesting turn of events lockouts protect the larger guilds in that situation , and 2) because some of the smaller guilds smartly decided that if they're going to sock, they may as well do it in class C where there is more mobs to be had.

Also this is an odd way to see things. You may be able to get more loot than before, but I'm going to bet the man hours you invest per piece of loot is much larger now with the socking in R and increased FFA competition. So that is the leverage the small guilds have have - you can get more stuff than them sure, but it costs you proportionally much more to get every single piece of loot than it did in the rotation. Clearly this is not what BDA wants given the existence of this thread asking GMs to essentially intervene to further reduce smaller guilds' leverage in class R. You say no leverage yet this thread exists specifically because of that leverage forcing you to poopsock more than you like.

Furthermore, even if some group of players has no leverage you'd probably enjoy EQ more to try to work with them anyway. It's nice to help and be considerate of other people just of your own free will, rather than only considering how much leverage they have to compel you to cooperate.

[Daldaen]

You're absolutely insane if you think us or Rampage would sit on the VP pad or any other spot for 4 days. It was like that before and it never happened. also:

[Sun Apr 05 09:32:44 2015] ---------------------------
/who ramp
[Sun Apr 05 09:32:44 2015] There are 23 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 08:44:43 2015] Players on EverQuest:
/who the mystical
[Sun Apr 05 08:44:43 2015] There are 24 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 09:36:40 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:36:40 2015] ---------------------------
/who bregan
[Sun Apr 05 09:36:41 2015] There are 22 players in Karnor's Castle.



[Sun Apr 05 09:53:58 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:53:58 2015] ---------------------------
/who taken
[Sun Apr 05 09:53:59 2015] There are 55 players in Karnor's Castle.

You guys are, and always were, the real poopsockers.

I'd just like to point out. The log you have of Taken, is 20min left in window, 10min from spawn.

The log of your own guild is taken 1.5 hours left in window. More TMO were certainly online with 20min left in window. I don't doubt it wasn't 55, I'm pretty sure Taken has a larger active raid crew than TMO. But it most definitely wasn't 24.

But this is exactly why. We just say, 0 variance, 2 players allowed in zone when it spawns. Let us sort it out from there.

[Troubled]

The 2 main reasons for reduced leverage from smaller guilds is 1) because in an interesting turn of events lockouts protect the larger guilds in that situation , and 2) because some of the smaller guilds smartly decided that if they're going to sock, they may as well do it in class C where there is more mobs to be had.

Also this is an odd way to see things. You may be able to get more loot than before, but I'm going to bet the man hours you invest per piece of loot is much larger now with the socking in R and increased FFA competition. So that is the leverage the small guilds have have - you can get more stuff than them sure, but it costs you proportionally much more to get every single piece of loot than it did in the rotation. Clearly this is not what BDA wants given the existence of this thread asking GMs to essentially intervene to further reduce smaller guilds' leverage in class R. You say no leverage yet this thread exists specifically because of that leverage forcing you to poopsock more than you like.

Furthermore, even if some group of players has no leverage you'd probably enjoy EQ more to try to work with them anyway. It's nice to help and be considerate of other people just of your own free will, rather than only considering how much leverage they have to compel you to cooperate.

What? I gave no thought to class R when I made the thread. Not sure why you'd claim that. I've always hated variance. Your claim that higher variance would help has also been tried and proven false. Lowered variance would help you more than us anyway. Feels like you're just arguing to argue.

[Juryiel]

The best solution is completely not classic, but would give classic feels. All raid mobs should be like Quillmane. Kill Juggs, there's a chance of a Trak pop. Raid Hate, there's a chance that one of the mobs triggers Inny. Raid trash in VP, there's a chance that a dragon there pops.

It would force people to actually play the content instead of training the shit out of each other for a 20 second kill. Make it so the mob is invulnerable for 20 minutes to all but the guild that triggered it.

It's a stupid idea, but it's way more classic feeling and immersive than 16/96 hour poopsock sessions.

Absolutely love this idea from a fun perspective. Won't ever happen, but most of the good solutions to the problems we have won't either so :)

[FatMice]

Daldean...

I don't really understand why you think..
2 players allowed in zone when it spawns. Let us sort it out from there.

...would solve anything.

I would expect 200 people sitting on the otherside of Zone In in Dreadlands.

Unless I am missing something...

[Ella`Ella]

Simple solution -

1) Ban Chest

2) TMO changes name to Transatlantic and then merges with Rampage

3) Every other guild class-r guild interested in raiding consolidates into one guild.

[maskedmelon]

Daldean...

I don't really understand why you think..


...would solve anything.

I would expect 200 people sitting on the otherside of Zone In in Dreadlands.

Unless I am missing something...

Exactly. We need 0 variance with guild lockouts equal to 2x+1 days, where x = respawn of target mob ^^ would prefer to see this coupled with mob respawn times reduced by half.

[Daldaen]

Daldean...

I don't really understand why you think..


...would solve anything.

I would expect 200 people sitting on the otherside of Zone In in Dreadlands.

Unless I am missing something...

The difference is this:

Those 200 people may choose to sit in DL or camp out at entrance of KC. But they don't have to sit there for 16 hours for a chance to kill VS. They can show up 10 minutes before, snag some buffs, and be ready to race for him.

16 hours discourages many from partaking in the raid scene cause you could put in 14 hours of tracking and not see the mob.

With zero variance, firstly... It's Classic. Secondly it's classic. And thirdly, the people who want to compete for raid mobs don't have to devote two entire working days of tracking just to see the bloody mob spawn. They can devote 20-30min of porting around, buffing, and then racing for it.

[Juryiel]

What? I gave no thought to class R when I made the thread. Not sure why you'd claim that. I've always hated variance. Your claim that higher variance would help has also been tried and proven false. Lowered variance would help you more than us anyway. Feels like you're just arguing to argue.

I don't think higher variance would help stop socking. I think a totally random chance for a mob to pop at any given time would make socking much less meaningful except for that specific mob you are socking though. Sure people would do it still, but if you decide to sock VS, trak may spawn 10 times before VS (totally uniform random, and therefore independent), so the effectiveness of your sock will be reduced. Maybe everyone would just sock trakanon and VS then with porters nearby, who knows. But many mob spawns would not be socked since there would be no windows to tell you when to sock each particular mob. With a trully uniform random spawn chance, unless every guild has like 5 raid forces you won't get the same amount of socking per mob as you do now. There just aren't enough bodies. I think it would make things more fun rather than 0 variance FTE clickfest, which, although would mechanistically eliminate socking, would do so in a way that is super unfun to me. So I don't consider it a good solution even though it would accomplish the no socking thing. Uniform random spawn times are also not the best solution btw, but if modification of variance is all we have I would go with that over 0 variance.

And you may not have given thought to class R, but the increased socking you're doing is a result of it. I'm just pointing out that you have some ability to entirely eliminate socking on 1/2 (class R) of mobs you engage and reduce socking on the other 1/2 (FFA) by working with players rather than asking GMs to step in. Clearly you don't care enough to do this so it weakens the argument that GMs should care enough.

The thread is about an alternative to variance in the title anyway.

[Ravager]

Simple solution -

1) Ban Chest

2) TMO changes name to Transatlantic and then merges with Rampage

3) Every other guild class-r guild interested in raiding consolidates into Transatlantic Rampage.

ftfy

[zanderklocke]

I'd rather have no variance and have a random dice roll determine who gets the mob than have to have a character camped ready for mobs at 16 hours a time. Having someone stare at the screen for up to 16 hours is truly a waste of time and not something I think the original developers of EverQuest would ever imagine.

It would definitely remove the necessity to have multiple level 60 characters camped out across the server. Raid content would be more accessible to all. People could actually play/enjoy the game since mobs would not be "in window" as often.

Who cares if guilds poopsock for 10 minutes on every mob? Guilds might actually choose to not have zerg forces since a reasonable number of people would be ready if they knew when the mobs were going to spawn.

[Detoxx]

I'd just like to point out. The log you have of Taken, is 20min left in window, 10min from spawn.

The log of your own guild is taken 1.5 hours left in window. More TMO were certainly online with 20min left in window. I don't doubt it wasn't 55, I'm pretty sure Taken has a larger active raid crew than TMO. But it most definitely wasn't 24.

But this is exactly why. We just say, 0 variance, 2 players allowed in zone when it spawns. Let us sort it out from there.

Maybe, its the only one I had, I do know that we never had more than 30 socking.

[Daldaen]

I'd rather have no variance and have a random dice roll determine who gets the mob than have to have a character camped ready for mobs at 16 hours a time. Having someone stare at the screen for up to 16 hours is truly a waste of time and not something I think the original developers of EverQuest would ever imagine.

It would definitely remove the necessity to have multiple level 60 characters camped out across the server. Raid content would be more accessible to all. People could actually play/enjoy the game since mobs would not be "in window" as often.

Who cares if guilds poopsock for 10 minutes on every mob? Guilds might actually choose to not have zerg forces since a reasonable number of people would be ready if they knew when the mobs were going to spawn.

This.

And Detoxx that may be... But I'm pretty sure that's false. I'll pull up my logs when I get home and we shall determine whose Sunday Morning 10 min before spawn memory is correct.

[Xekk]

Anyone care to explain why guild lockouts and spawn times of <12 hours wouldn't fix the pooping of socks? Is it simply the thrill of competing with other guilds to get the mob or is it just not classic?

[iruinedyourday]

getting rid of rotation and not getting rid of variance seems like a strange decision, although variance requires code.

but still, getting rid of rotation was stupid

[maskedmelon]

Anyone care to explain why guild lockouts and spawn times of <12 hours wouldn't fix the pooping of socks? Is it simply the thrill of competing with other guilds to get the mob or is it just not classic?

I'm with you... I am not sure why others are reluctant to hop on this sock-free bandwagon ^^

[Ravager]

Maybe, its the only one I had, I do know that we never had more than 30 socking.

I am certain this is a lie.

[skipdog]

How about... who cares?

OH NOES, SOME PEOPLE WAITED FOR A MONSTER TO SPAWN IN EVERQUEST! WE BETTER CHANGE THE RULES!!

[Cranky]

None of the proposed solutions will ever be implemented because P1999 is classic by definition. The only hope of getting this under control is by the players organizing a rotation or other community solution.

The GMs will never create instances, mess with the spawn cycles or anything that is not classic unless they want to take the server in a direction other than classic which they will not.

You want to stop the poops? As a community you need to organize who can use the toilet when and where; stick to it and punish those who break the line.

[Man0warr]

If it's Classic, remove the variance.

[Loke]

For years and years people have been suggesting a 100% variance (e.g. completely random) everytime these threads pop up, yet we keep trying to find patch work solutions like raiding classes, lockouts, or limiting where people can camp out, and other such silly rules. I look forward to what next ridiculous solution we'll try out next while ignoring the fact that even the beardiest of necks wont sit on every spawn 24/7.

[Fael]

There is no answer fellas.

[Daldaen]

Anyone care to explain why guild lockouts and spawn times of <12 hours wouldn't fix the pooping of socks? Is it simply the thrill of competing with other guilds to get the mob or is it just not classic?

Because some people derive their pleasure in the game by feeling unique. By feeling like they earned a rare item and they don't want anyone else to have it. Like a child on a playground with the newest toy, or clothes, or gadget.

If they spawned every 12 hours, they lose that and will be sad.

Plus that's not classic.

0 Variance is though.

[Xekk]

The GMs will never create instances, mess with the spawn cycles or anything that is not classic unless they want to take the server in a direction other than classic which they will not.

Incorrect sir. Variance in itself is not classic. Spending years in Kunark is not classic and that is the reason for all this mess. This server is top heavy(number of raid capable characters) and it will continue toward that trend, and I suspect it will explode after Velious due to the number of retired players coming back.

Drastically reduce spawn times, eliminate variance, and enforce guild lockouts

[Xekk]

Because some people derive their pleasure in the game by feeling unique. By feeling like they earned a rare item and they don't want anyone else to have it. Like a child on a playground with the newest toy, or clothes, or gadget.

If they spawned every 12 hours, they lose that and will be sad.

Plus that's not classic.

0 Variance is though.

So we must pander to the children of the server?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

this message board needs an open raid lawyerin' sub-forum. This really has no place in gen pop.

I would suggest moving it to the the Starting Zone subforum. Give new players a honest glimpse at the reality, that no, the leveling guild they joined is actually not ever going to kill any raid mobs. A lot of newer players do not fully grasp how this server simply does not work that way.

Variance debates = raid guild debates. Take it out of gen pop plz.

[Ravager]

Because some people derive their pleasure in the game by feeling unique. By feeling like they earned a rare item and they don't want anyone else to have it. Like a child on a playground with the newest toy, or clothes, or gadget.

If they spawned every 12 hours, they lose that and will be sad.

Plus that's not classic.

0 Variance is though.

The fact is, it will make 20% of the population sad. This server won't suffer if 20% aren't happy with how the raiding is here. That 20% can and will be replaced.

[Aviann]

So we must pander to the children of the server?

Considering the child earned whatever their said item was, and they are pretty much helping their friends get the same item/other items, wouldn't that mean that you and your friends should just do the same and actually attempt to try, instead of blaming the original kid for earning the said item?

Just throwing it out there, but if you'd just get the raid force, you'd have a chance at these mobs as well as anyone else, especially with how the current guild classes are seperated. It takes effort, but a lot of people realize that the pay off is worth it in the end, and if it isn't in any of your eyes, then why are you complaining about this subject in the first place? Will you all be happy when everyone is equal without having to put out the same effort?

I am in no means trying to be rude here, but the argument is beginning to get a little stale when it becomes "Variance this, variance that", "nobody deserves to have to poopsock", "I can't believe 150 people showed up to kill a dragon even though its only 7% of the server online at a time", and this is coming from someone who was content sitting on their butt in WC for two years talking to his pals because he wanted to.

Turns out there ARE alternatives to variance, and a lot of people are living it now. Whether it be the countless toons logged in decent spots for an Earthquake or regular pop, or the mains of those who have taken their time to level to 46 and actually make an effort to find a guild or even create one that fits their playstyle and timeframe to where they can actually make an attempt at raiding these big targets with other people of their likeness.

Love you guys, but ffs... I do blame the server staying in Kunark for so long making competition a little less enjoyable than what it can be, but how can you even say you're trying to compete when you aren't? You have the time, you have the place, WHY ARE YOU NOT THERE?!

[Juryiel]

Anyone care to explain why guild lockouts and spawn times of <12 hours wouldn't fix the pooping of socks? Is it simply the thrill of competing with other guilds to get the mob or is it just not classic?

It's because guilds with more man-hours to invest inevitably feel like they should be getting more stuff than guilds with less man-hours to invest (and this is not necessarily wrong). You end up getting an arms race of increasing investment of man-hours. But increasing investment of man-hours has poopsocking as the ultimate conclusion.

And guild lockouts are tough to get people to agree specifically because they violate the idea above. Essentially they put a ceiling on invested man-hours. E.g. you may have 100 man-hours to invest, but if any man-hours over 50 make no difference in a lockout, that guild with 100 man-hours won't go along with it. It puts them on equal footing as all those lesser guilds with only 50 to 99 man-hours. They are unable to use some of their advantages to compete. To maximize their personal advantage every guild is compelled to try to set that ceiling at the maximum amount of man-hours they are willing to invest but no higher, so getting players to agree on that is tough. A rotation is essentially a lockout until everyone else has taken a turn, and even so-called casual guilds failed to keep that up.

[Skydash]

This is why the US is a TWO party system with Representatives.

Democracy never works. Especially if there are 13 parties.

FFA, No variance, No rules. Kill steal, ninja loot, Memblur. No GM interference.

Pay the stay at home dads for loot.

Either Anarchy (above), or Communism.

We could have a server log of people in zone at the time of kill, give DKP to everyone in zone.
Have silent DKP bids on items. Everyone gets to participate, everyone gets loot. Server wins.

[captnamazing]

i quit this game and no longer poopsock variant mobs

[Ravager]

This is why the US is a TWO party system with Representatives.

Democracy never works. Especially if there are 13 parties.

FFA, No variance, No rules. Kill steal, ninja loot, Memblur. No GM interference.

Pay the stay at home dads for loot.

Either Anarchy (above), or Communism.

We could have a server log of people in zone at the time of kill, give DKP to everyone in zone.
Have silent DKP bids on items. Everyone gets to participate, everyone gets loot. Server wins.

American politics is a 2 party system because of the P99 raid scene?

[kaev]

i quit this game and no longer poopsock variant mobs

You're still socking the forums tho, big mistake. Forums are like a gateway drug bro, they are the weed of online gaming. Forums will lead you back to p99, and you know what happens then... communism! :gasp:

[Buhbuh]

an alternative to variance is joining Red99 and competing for things.

today was a 2 and a half hour fight over Innoruuk. real shit show. great fun

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

None of the proposed solutions will ever be implemented because P1999 is classic by definition. The only hope of getting this under control is by the players organizing a rotation or other community solution.

The GMs will never create instances, mess with the spawn cycles or anything that is not classic unless they want to take the server in a direction other than classic which they will not.

You want to stop the poops? As a community you need to organize who can use the toilet when and where; stick to it and punish those who break the line.

But.... this *is* the choice of the community. This is not forced on anyone. Given the ruleset, this is what will happen, every time.

It's basically the prisoner's dilemma, for you college types out there.

[Daldaen]

Maybe, its the only one I had, I do know that we never had more than 30 socking.

[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] ---------------------------
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [58 Luminary] Daawa (Troll) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Nukehard <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Snifs <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Arufall <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Fauss (Half Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Warlord] Townsaver (Dwarf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Assassin] Kids (Halfling) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Warlord] Wispy (Halfling) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Jazhara (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Ayah <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Quested <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Omnia <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Grandmaster] Osirous (Iksar) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Briefs <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Corovad <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Coldplay <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Aadill <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Quoth <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Phantasmist] Fakemoon (Elemental) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Kubaton <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Waxed (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Hielo
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] AFK [60 Warlock] Broli (Iksar) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Kbrown <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Nefarion (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Cedarr <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Pockett <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Arch Mage] Onyxheart (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Warlord] Jagganath (Ogre) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Fyion (Wood Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] [60 High Priest] Kaimandroth (Human) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:33:38 2015] There are 31 players in Karnor's Castle.

Daldaen's memory was correct.

The final log I took was 7min before pop, with like 15min left in window:

[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] ---------------------------
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [46 Wizard] Damroth (Dark Elf) <Asgard>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [52 Vicar] Dathlyr (Dwarf) <Europa> LFG
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Woodman <Anonymous>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Sprak <Divinity>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [51 Elementalist] Talimain (High Elf) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Teak
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Stifling <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Juevento <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Jazhara (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Rehpotsirhc <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Hierophant] Ailae (Wolf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [59 Myrmidon] Orremis (Troll) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Selenia <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Tierael <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Assassin] Eiger (Barbarian) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Docvan <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [53 Disciple] Razartiz (Iksar) LFG
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Mazach <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Writhe <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [51 Pathfinder] Scior (Wood Elf) <Asgard>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [56 Master] Ocide (Iksar) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Quested <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [57 Defiler] Hando (Skeleton) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Pallius <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Grandmaster] Elzhi (Human) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Kegluas (Skeleton) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Filimina <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Roon <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Ashintar <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Grave Lord] Guapillo (Troll) <Europa> LFG
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Nikkanu (Dark Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Grandmaster] Chest (Dark Elf) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [56 Myrmidon] Runningbear (Dwarf) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Upskirts (Gnome) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Kaliu <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Hierophant] Ralistin (Wood Elf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Jumala
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Assassin] Enorm (Skeleton) <Rampage> LFG
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [52 Pathfinder] Aildiin (Wood Elf)
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [52 Disciple] Pookieson (Iksar) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Rhovanion <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Dawnryen <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Arch Mage] Year (Dark Elf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] AFK [52 Heretic] Ssaro (Iksar) <Anonymous>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [51 Illusionist] Vulefaz (Erudite) <Anonymous>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Thornymofo <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Shiroe <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Davaryen <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [47 Bard] Dolanci (Dark Elf) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [55 Conjurer] Aido (Gnome) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Oroton <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Zanderr (Half Elf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Raewhen <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Ezekiel <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Oracle] Zalg (Ogre) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Chikitilla <Divinity>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [58 Luminary] Daawa (Troll) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Turdy (Ogre) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Alanus
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Taborvane <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] <LINKDEAD>[ANONYMOUS] Wizardstoner <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [55 Luminary] Phoxereng (Iksar) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [56 Luminary] Parliament (Ogre) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Assassin] Murderdeathkill (High Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Pickard <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Nolos <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Vasec <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [55 Defiler] Webyy (Iksar) <Galactica>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Allishia (Dark Elf) <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Lovegnome
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Papaj <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Xaine <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Readme
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Tobius <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Grave Lord] Tetrad (Iksar) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Oracle] Udabut (Ogre) <Divinity>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Freddi <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Arch Mage] Sampten (Gnome) <Divinity>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Nukehard <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Arch Mage] Monolith (Dark Elf) <Rampage> LFG
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Tessmang
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Armistead (High Elf) <Divinity>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Bisquit <Divinity>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Phantasmist] Grobnik (Dark Elf) <Divinity>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Snifs <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Grandmaster] Gronimo (Iksar) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Joyelle <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Stiza <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlock] Xxamot (Dark Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [58 Blackguard] Safetypin (Iksar) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [48 Magician] Vanvelzen (Gnome) <Europa>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [54 Disciple] Ataka (Iksar) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Arufall <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Gorruk <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Fauss (Skeleton) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [59 Blackguard] Malasombra (Dwarf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [59 Blackguard] Roog (Dark Elf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Dukoph (Wolf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Townsaver (Dwarf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Oracle] Haldailsoon (Iksar) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Ambit <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Sudlarvn (Gnome) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Bellringer (Human) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Goobuk <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] AFK [60 High Priest] Dannyl (Dwarf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Sugarlipz (High Elf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Zanstad (Dark Elf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Argh (Barbarian) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Phantasmist] Kaeinie (Dark Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Assassin] Kids (Halfling) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Wispy (Halfling) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Unicity (Halfling) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Yiska <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlock] Brillayan (Iksar) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [56 Conjurer] Dallor (High Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Qerki <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Franswa (Iksar) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Ayah <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Hierophant] Briscoe (Human) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [59 Luminary] Abstinent (Troll)
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Moodie <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Oracle] Bendain (Ogre) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Jadoken (Barbarian) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Omnia <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Grandmaster] Osirous (Iksar) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Briefs <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Corovad <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Coldplay <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Aadill <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Dianamel <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Crusader] Ragaroth (Human) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warder] Arwyn (Wood Elf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Quoth <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] AFK [60 Phantasmist] Fakemoon (Elemental) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlock] Gaxx (Dark Elf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Kubaton <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Waxed (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Hielo
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Xerra <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlock] Broli (Iksar) <The Mystical Order> LFG
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Draenor <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Braemen <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Sathorann <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Elmarnieh <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Kbrown <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Nefarion (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Cedarr <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Botrainer <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Drakan <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Aata <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Phantasmist] Alert (Elemental) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Cromcruach <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Velmun <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Chrysus <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Hirgon <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Epidermal <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Pockett <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Morby <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Grandmaster] Raffix (Iksar) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warder] Tigerbite (Wolf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Beeacleric <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Poysun <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [59 Blackguard] Faided (Dark Elf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [57 Blackguard] Seedss (Halfling) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Sorcerer] History (Erudite) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Sartok (Iksar) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Dawamesk <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [54 Vicar] Huslie (Halfling) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Marhault (Half Elf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Oracle] Skychi (Iksar) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [55 Conjurer] Cohmplete (Dark Elf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Phantasmist] Pulsate (High Elf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Snozeberry (Gnome) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Arch Mage] Onyxheart (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Hierophant] Laithus (Wood Elf) <Divinity>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Assassin] Sneakss (Dwarf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Oblexsis <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Crusader] Arthon (High Elf) <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Downstairs <Indignation>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Warlord] Jagganath (Ogre) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [54 Pathfinder] Skydash (Wood Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Drudini <Bregan D`Aerth>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Fyion (Wood Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Reiatsu (Dark Elf) <Asgard>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Kaimandroth (Human) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Ciixual <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Dagnabitt <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Atreth <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Theya <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Muffin <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Shoneys <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Glourious <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Facefisted <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Dolphy <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Fawlimire (High Elf) <Rampage>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [54 Illusionist] Vicela (Dark Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Xudoz <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Trookle (Wood Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Tris <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Mamael <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] [60 High Priest] Healier (Dark Elf) <Taken>
[Sun Apr 05 09:54:14 2015] There are 201 players in Karnor's Castle.

Indignation 27, Rampage 27, BDA 32, TMO 32, Taken 55

[Sun Apr 05 10:01:20 2015] Venril Sathir engages Kegluas!

Then I would be pretty certain another 5-10 at a minimum were poopsocking the login screen and popped in when the batphone went off, I unfortunately was busy laughing at the train in the pit and forgot to take another /who.

Again - Remove variance on Kunark mobs, cause not classic. With Velious announced, this shouldn't be such a big deal but will be classic.

[Joyelle]

[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] Players on EverQuest:
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] ---------------------------
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Selenia <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Quested <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Thornymofo <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [58 Luminary] Daawa (Troll) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Nukehard <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Snifs <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Arch Mage] Onyxheart (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Warlord] Jagganath (Ogre) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Fyion (Wood Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 High Priest] Kaimandroth (Human) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Pockett <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Cedarr <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Nefarion (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Kbrown <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Warlock] Broli (Iksar) <The Mystical Order> LFG
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Hielo
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Sorcerer] Waxed (Dark Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Kubaton <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] AFK [60 Phantasmist] Fakemoon (Elemental) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Quoth <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Aadill <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Coldplay <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Corovad <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] AFK [ANONYMOUS] Briefs <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Grandmaster] Osirous (Iksar) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Omnia <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Ayah <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Warlord] Wispy (Halfling) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Assassin] Kids (Halfling) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Warlord] Townsaver (Dwarf) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [60 Virtuoso] Fauss (Skeleton) <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] [ANONYMOUS] Arufall <The Mystical Order>
[Sun Apr 05 09:51:24 2015] There are 32 players in Karnor's Castle.

to confirm Daldaen's count.

also

Ban Chest and everything else should just fall into place.
reminds me of this:
http://media.giphy.com/media/9ZvnSA4hngps4/giphy.gif