Rogue Pickpocket Skill (Looking for definitive ruling)

[fastboy21]

I almost didn't want to post this question because it has the ability to turn into a whole debate (that has been had before, I'm sure) over pickpocket skill for rogues.

Is the use of this ability ever a violation of GM policies? I'm not very interested in whether folks think it is wrong or not. I'm really just looking for a statement from a player who knows the rule from a past GM post (link would be good if you have it) or a statement from a guide.

Example, is it a punishable offense to pickpocket a mob that someone else is killing? is it a punishable offense to pickpocket without group mates consent?

These are obviously not good things to do, but i'm really just interested in the rules side of the action.

[evilkorn]

You can probably make a case for ninja looting if he's not in the group, but there is no proof that anything was picked other than the rogues screen. If he is in the group and didn't tell you he's picking, then he's a dick. If you see a failed message from the mob and tell him to stop then see it again, just boot him from the group.

[webrunner5]

I really doubt it is against "GM Rules", just against common sense lol. Like has been said, looting someone in a group is sort of a no no unless they are Willing to Let You skill up on them. :eek:

It has been nerfed like hell on here, so what is classic or not is anyone's guess. I know it was quite popular on Live in the day but I think hardly anyone uses it like that much on here?? :p

[Cecily]

It's harassment (petitionable) and being a jerk. Stealing from your group is just being a jerk. Not a big issue since Kanras absolutely destroyed the skill and overnerfed the ability. Hill giants can't be pickpocketed now along with all other "monster" type NPCs (non-animal, non-undead, non-summoned). Very broken.

[Swish]

If you're in a seb group and suddenly a beetle says "Stop thief! <Fastboy>" (they talk, right?), you're going to lose people's trust because there's gems that can drop.

I know that you can't pickpocket gems in Sebilis but I also know that not everyone knows that... so in order to keep the peace, keep your pickpocketing key for another day.

Alternatively, tell people you want to skill up your pickpocketing and see if they're cool with it. Best way not to have anyone want to replace you :)

[Tankdan]

If you're in a seb group and suddenly a beetle says "Stop thief! <Fastboy>" (they talk, right?), you're going to lose people's trust because there's gems that can drop.

A good rogue has doability 1, 2, and 3 in their evade macro, one of which is pickpocketing.

[Swish]

A good rogue has doability 1, 2, and 3 in their evade macro, one of which is pickpocketing.

A good rogue doesn't pick from their groups, I'd argue :)

[Cecily]

A good rogue doesn't pick from their groups, I'd argue :)

I'd second that. With the group's consent it's fine though. You need to get your skill to 200, for epic, before KC / Seb, because people will have a problem with it then.

[suppresso]

It's a rogues deity given right to pickpocket everything it can.

That said, you may make yourself less then appealing to p[people for grouping if you do

[fastboy21]

It's harassment (petitionable) and being a jerk. Stealing from your group is just being a jerk. Not a big issue since Kanras absolutely destroyed the skill and overnerfed the ability. Hill giants can't be pickpocketed now along with all other "monster" type NPCs (non-animal, non-undead, non-summoned). Very broken.

This is the closest to an answer to my question I think, that pickpocketing someone else's mobs, possibly even your own groups' mobs if you don't have permission, would fall under harassment.

I agree with the sentiment that most folks are posting regarding whether or not it is against server policy is secondary to the universal policy of "don't be a jerk." However, for reasons which don't belong in a "server chat" thread, I wanted confirmation that such behavior is actually against the rules from folks who know them better than I.

regarding the gems in seb, there seems to be some contradiction in this thread and others on the forums that I found regarding whether or not gems can be pickpocketed from appropriate humanoid-flagged creatures. Can anyone confirm that frogloks are pp'able and that they can drop gems from pp?

thanks.

[Nubben]

A good rogue has doability 1, 2, and 3 in their evade macro, one of which is pickpocketing.

A good rogue doesn't need a macro to evade.

[Samoht]

Using an evade macro lowers your autoattack uptime and ultimately means lower DPS.

[bktroost]

I believe Eunomia ruled on this with a creeping rogue and some ears gnoll ears. You cannot pickpocket another group's mobs.

Official ruling.

[Cecily]

Using an evade macro lowers your autoattack uptime and ultimately means lower DPS.

False. Getting agro ultimately means lower DPS.

[bktroost]

Using an evade macro lowers your autoattack uptime and ultimately means lower DPS.

Also, why add potential hate to your attack? If you are not a VP rogue and you have thornstinger, you should have three weapon slots on your hotbar so you can primary thronstinger, secondary epic and swap in your EoN to secondary and secondary to primary right before backstab becomes available and then out again. Then you hide/evade. You already are adding your extra proc chance with Thornstinger (aggro) which gives you the added attack bonus and low ration-- swings per round. That's a lot of work to go through just to have a macro make you loose some of those attacks and generate even more.

[Cecily]

This is the closest to an answer to my question I think, that pickpocketing someone else's mobs, possibly even your own groups' mobs if you don't have permission, would fall under harassment.

No. In this situation, your group has the ability to do something about it, specfically kicking the scumbag out. If you're having your mobs pickpocketed by an out of party rogue, there's no recourse other than getting a GM involved if the rogue refuses to stop.

[Cecily]

Also, why add potential hate to your attack? If you are not a VP rogue and you have thornstinger, you should have three weapon slots on your hotbar so you can primary thronstinger, secondary epic and swap in your EoN to secondary and secondary to primary right before backstab becomes available and then out again. Then you hide/evade. You already are adding your extra proc chance with Thornstinger (aggro) which gives you the added attack bonus and low ration-- swings per round. That's a lot of work to go through just to have a macro make you loose some of those attacks and generate even more.

GDI no. Weapon swapping has been proven to lower DPS. Evade is enough to manage even a rune proc.

[bktroost]

GDI no. Weapon swapping has been proven to lower DPS.

I read and read and I can't figure out why that's said. I've parsed and had better results with it than epic+EoN.

[Swish]

No. In this situation, your group has the ability to do something about it, specfically kicking the scumbag out. If you're having your mobs pickpocketed by an out of party rogue, there's no recourse other than getting a GM involved if the rogue refuses to stop.

Ever have a rogue come up to your group's mobs and just stand there? If the tank moves it away and if he follows, petition it up... I've only seen it a few times but some people think its acceptable and like you won't notice or something :p

[Cecily]

I read and read and I can't figure out why that's said. I've parsed and had better results with it than epic+EoN.

For the same reason Samoht thinks evade lowers DPS. (Although evading has an insignificant impact on DPS). You restart the weapon's attack timer when you swap. Do this multiple times over a fight, adding in human error and delays in swapping, and you're losing swings over time = lost DPS.

Thorn + Epic is going to be the best weapon combo in Kunark for most people. Swapping to a 15 DMG weapon to backstab will lower your DPS.
If you've had results suggesting otherwise, how big is your sample size? How often are you doing this?

[bktroost]

For the same reason Samoht thinks evade lowers DPS. (Although evading has an insignificant impact on DPS). You restart the weapon's attack timer when you swap. Do this multiple times over a fight, adding in human error and delays in swapping, and you're losing swings over time = lost DPS.

Thorn + Epic is going to be the best weapon combo in Kunark for most people. Swapping to a 15 DMG weapon to backstab will lower your DPS.
If you've had results suggesting otherwise, how big is your sample size? How often are you doing this?

You're saying that outside of VP that Thorn+Epic is best exp even with the reduced backstab?

[Samoht]

False. Getting agro ultimately means lower DPS.

Not false. You can still evade without a macro.

[Cecily]

Alright then you're saying something different. Using a macro vs manual evading is simply preference. There's no dps difference.

[Cecily]

You're saying that outside of VP that Thorn+Epic is best exp even with the reduced backstab?

Best damage? Yes. Backstab is only part of your damage as a rogue (30-40%). Reducing it in favor of more main hand output balances everything out, and at the same time keeping the atk bonus and haste from Ragebringer applied on all strikes. That being said, I REALLY prefer Ragebringer / RSSS on Velious stuff. TS shines in Kunark because it can hit a bunch of times in duelist. I don't care for it on longer fights.

[Ravager]

I petitioned once about this, my friend and I were killing bugs in seb and a rogue snuck up and pp'd the bug while we were killing it. The guide who answered was Amelinda and she ruled in favor of the dirtbag rogue saying it was a class skill. I said it was kinda lame, since he assumes no risk when he pp's someone else's mobs, but she didn't reply to that and closed the matter.

I think it should be against the rules, but that's just me.

[Voland]

I thought that pickpocketing does not affect the loot that mob drops when killed? Or am I thinking about another game?

[Cecily]

That's a very old rumor, but completely untrue. Pickpocketing does in fact remove coin and items from a mob's inventory, excluding items that are magic, no drop, or wielded. There's also a level cap on it. Fungi tunics aren't magic flagged, but they still can't be stolen because of that cap.

Someone stealing from your mobs is directly impacting what you'll see on the corpse.

[Swish]

Eunomia I was roleplaying I swear! Pls don't ban!

[Cecily]

That's the traditional scumbag argument. Stealing involves risk. Either risk getting killed solo from a crit fail or risk getting thrown out of your group. If you steal out of group, there is no risk to you. It's bad sportsmanship. It's being a bad player. It's being a bad rogue.

[bktroost]

I petitioned once about this, my friend and I were killing bugs in seb and a rogue snuck up and pp'd the bug while we were killing it. The guide who answered was Amelinda and she ruled in favor of the dirtbag rogue saying it was a class skill. I said it was kinda lame, since he assumes no risk when he pp's someone else's mobs, but she didn't reply to that and closed the matter.

I think it should be against the rules, but that's just me.

I stopped reading at "Amelinda". No explanation needed.

[Cecily]

I stopped reading at "Amelinda". No explanation needed.

Yeah, I think I know the rogue he's talking about... I have faith that the current staff will handle the matter differently.

[Loxnar]

With my rogue I always ask my group if its cool if I Pick Pocket to skill up, I have only been told no a few times. I didn't even bother asking in groups in high keep (goblin ears,orc skins). Most groups don't care, and I always pass out the words I get to the casters. Now Pick Pocketing from other groups mobs is just a dick move and will earn you a bad rep. But I have never had the urge to go and steal from another group.

[HalflingWarrior]

Rogue mains, like Warriors, need all the help they can get leveling and acquiring gear.

I say let em pickpocket all they want huzzah

[Naprox]

I pickpocket all the time in Seb. I have never once gotten a gem. What I do see is coin, pages and that powder crap. But I always offer the pages to anyone in group who wants them or just discard them on the ground.

[Ravager]

Rogue mains, like Warriors, need all the help they can get leveling and acquiring gear.

I say let em pickpocket all they want huzzah

Rogues need the least help. They hold the keys to the best loot.

[Swish]

You people who somehow, even with the fucked up economics of coin and money in EQ, think it's OK to poach said coin and money from someone else's mobs were clearly not raised with any regard to how society fucking functions.

Please go ask your mother and father for a refresher course on being a human being, you may need it once you unplug from Norrath. Holy shit.

"I'm not really too sure if this is a right or just thing to do, I have this strange feeling of a conscience creeping up in me, and rather than use any common fucking sense I'm going to go post about it and get a bunch of anti-socials to respond in kind!"

Seriously, your brain does not function like it should. This may be P99 and an emulated game from 15 years ago, but your question says more about you than it does this game.

You sound like great fun to play GTA 5 with Ace :p

[Supaskillz]

GTA 5 is about being a criminal, mayhem and fun. Everquest is a player driven community and an absolute shit game without a community of some sort. It's all about context. I loved the original EQ and the community that developed out of it. The P99 community couldn't hold a keychain flashlight compared to the forest fire that was EQ in its heyday.

I have been playing here for a while and I totally disagree. I find on average the community here to be more mature than on live in 1999-2000. I have had tons of great experiences in groups with strangers. Seen tons of players giving out gear and coin to new players and even hosting player run events with prizes.

The number of players competing for the top content in the game is many multiples here of what it was on live and inevitably creates some drama, but there was plenty of drama over far more basic things like Frenzy and lord camps on live.

Perhaps you have had different experience than I, or you base your expectations of what the server is like on the raid disputes you see on the forums, but I do not think this feeling is common among the 1000s players playing here every day.

[Monty405]

I vividly remember on Live. I spent a whole summer pretty much grinding in Sebilis almost daily with my Rogue main.

Not only were diamonds. ruby crowns, ect ect coming in through pick pocketing frogs but I never got a failed message at skill cap.

Are people here getting STOP! THIEF! messages at skill cap?

[Swish]

I vividly remember on Live. I spent a whole summer pretty much grinding in Sebilis almost daily with my Rogue main.

Not only were diamonds. ruby crowns, ect ect coming in through pick pocketing frogs but I never got a failed message at skill cap.

Are people here getting STOP! THIEF! messages at skill cap?

Yep it can happen.

[Daldaen]

I'd second that. With the group's consent it's fine though. You need to get your skill to 200, for epic, before KC / Seb, because people will have a problem with it then.

Don't need anywhere close to 200 to pick for rogue epics. Like 50~ skill is sufficient.

[Cecily]

Don't need anywhere close to 200 to pick for rogue epics. Like 50~ skill is sufficient.

Thanks, master rogue. If you care about not getting your character killed, 200 is smart and easily attainable by the time you'd be working on epics, 40+. Technically, no, you do not need 200 to get epic pieces. That's not what I meant. I meant you NEED to have your skill capped by the time you get to areas that people actually will care if you're stealing from their mobs. Again, the devs broke the skill and whether or not you can actually steal anything decent anymore is questionable.

[Eunomia]

Official ruling:

Pick-pocketing Rogues are classic.

Rogues may pick pocket as they pass through an area, they may not linger or return.

A rogue may pick pocket while grouped... until not grouped.

[paulgiamatti]

Rogues cannot pickpocket the beetles in Sebilis. Beetles do not have pockets. Pickpocket only works on humanoid NPCs; oddly, goo-type NPCs are classified as humanoids. If you don't see the "Stop, thief! <Playername>" message while you're grouping with a rogue, they probably aren't pickpocketing. If a rogue is constantly hammering pickpocket on pickpocketable mobs, you're going to see this message a lot.

Pickpocketing often is a great way to never get invited to groups. It not only draws aggro when the NPC catches you - something rogues generally don't want to do - but it also depletes the NPC's coin and gem supply. I tried it once in a Sebilis group at level 55, got caught red-handed, and never tried it again. If you want to make pickpocketing a lucrative endeavor, go get your parchments from Tani N`Mar and Founy Jestands.

[Cecily]

Yeah how it works here, Paul. It's not implemented correctly. "Pockets" are irrelevant. Snakes can kick. The only restriction should be non-animal, non-undead, and within the player vs. NPC level range for it to function. Hill giants can't be pickpocketed atm. They are the classic target for the skill and are not humanoid.

[OfftuneRZ]

Only on a 15 year old elf sim game forum would nerds argue and complain about a rog pick pocketing virtual currency/items in their group. Pickpocket is a skill, let them use it.

[Samoht]

Snakes can kick.

The implementation is classic, though. Snakes could kick.

oddly, goo-type NPCs are classified as humanoids.

This is also classic. You could assassinate oozes on live. I remember being like WTF.

[Cecily]

My point is EQ doesn't have to make perfect sense. How it is now, the skill isn't functioning correctly.

[Monty405]

If only I could pick pocket forums pixels

[fastboy21]

Official ruling:

Pick-pocketing Rogues are classic.

Rogues may pick pocket as they pass through an area, they may not linger or return.

A rogue may pick pocket while grouped... until not grouped.

Thank you for the response.