Mob run speed?

[Bruster]

Anyone else noticing mob run speed are a lot faster? Logged on and started soloing in OT, mobs are Usain Bolt fast

[jarshale]

It was adjusted a while back yeah.

[Kileras]

this is recent, as in today. mobs are much much faster.

tested this in BW, OT, Loio, Skyfire. Strafe run no longer outruns mobs as of today. It is either that they changed strafe run, or increased mob speed/hitbox size.

[Samoht Farstrider]

bard gear should be cheaper soon?
I could use some lambent!

[Kender]

or more expensive as people will need bard speed to flee

[Kahlid74]

Word on the street is monster speed was increased to prevent non Selo's/Snared Bard kiting. I haven't logged in yet to verify but if it's true it's kind of disappointing. I don't remember anyone ever saying it was an exploit, so not sure why it would be patched then.

Additionally there are other consequences to making this change for everyone else too. Means monster can more easily keep up with ya if you don't have some form a speed burst. So a lot of lower levels going to be feeling a lot more pain when traveling.

[mystang89]

^ yeah that

[Moosetoe]

I came here to look for answers about /who all not working and the inability to send tells for the past few hours (since servers came down a couple times). Then, I stumbled on this post, which definitely caught my attention. I an non-emcumbered with Journeyman's Boots, and these regular ole goblins in Warsliks Woods are punching me in the back the whole time while I'm running around. I even tested running in straight lines and run/strafing in a continuous direction, and the mobs are still thrashing me. I definitely felt like something is off, so I wasn't surprised to see this post.

Why the change?

[Bboboo]

If hitbox change is intentional it seems classic to me. Being able to outrun some mobs without SoW always seemed a bit off to me on this server. Although I probably didn't know about strafe running back then either.

If this sticks seems like the days of Bards keeping the roads clear is over.

[alcoma23]

Has anyone tried quadding recently? I just started playing with my lumi staff and would hate for my new toy to not work.

[Kahlid74]

If hitbox change is intentional it seems classic to me. Being able to outrun some mobs without SoW always seemed a bit off to me on this server. Although I probably didn't know about strafe running back then either.

If this sticks seems like the days of Bards keeping the roads clear is over.

I don't disagree in a way, being that Bard kiting was OP but why change it now? You knew it existed in 99/00 and yet you let it exist on P99 for 6 years? I'm just not on the same page with why now and why no communication? Are we so afraid of the groaning and moaning we'd rather stealth it in? Are we also so concerned about bard kiting that we'd rather screw over non speed boosted classes? Just seems like someone used a jackhammer to secure a single picture nail. There were better ways to address this issue.

[Bboboo]

I don't disagree in a way, being that Bard kiting was OP but why change it now? You knew it existed in 99/00 and yet you let it exist on P99 for 6 years? I'm just not on the same page with why now and why no communication? Are we so afraid of the groaning and moaning we'd rather stealth it in? Are we also so concerned about bard kiting that we'd rather screw over non speed boosted classes? Just seems like someone used a jackhammer to secure a single picture nail. There were better ways to address this issue.

I would place my money on it being a bug because of the recent resets tbh.

Plenty of stuff has been changed years later after the fact. For example the target box mob con color was removed sometime last year. Even though it comes back late in Velious (I think?) they removed it. Why? Because shit is classic.

IF this is an intentional change (which I doubt it is) I just don't see why Bards should complain. You guys had it good for a long time and it was kinda ridiculous being able to kill 100+ mobs by yourself. For everyone else that this affects, (that is not being able to easily run from mobs) just another case of the minority shitting it up for the majority. Not only is that classic but that's just life.

[Tann]

if the classic police found something to be not classic, like this run speed issue, they'd for sure have it fixed. if this just so happened to pimp slap aoe kiting bards in the face then its a win win :)

^ no clue if the run speed issue is a bug or w/e, just sayin

[Lionsfan616]

I feel like since I just started playing and my highest character is level 8 (bard) that im getting screwed big time. Reading all these posts, especially from Red, is very discouraging. I would love to play in PvP but it seems that everyone cheats somehow over there and controls the market so heavily that at level 1 I would never get anywhere. I love the game and I came to P99 to relive the old days but am I a little late to the party?

[MaCtastic]

Confirmed. Ninja bump on mob runspeed. No patchnotes?

[Yoogoplop]

Patch notes say something about fixing the run speed while feared, maybe it was an unintended bug?

[Haynar]

Not intended. Investigating if a bug. Or some db update that didnt get patched before. Not sure at this point. Looking thru old patches.

H

[slowpoke68]

This is how I remember EQ in 1999. If you didn't have SOW, all mobs could outrun you. This and nights being not so dark are the two things I noticed different from back then.

It certainly makes it tougher, no doubt about it. Have to hunt close to guards or zone lines again I guess haha.

[Itap]

Has anyone tried quadding recently? I just started playing with my lumi staff and would hate for my new toy to not work.

Was quading just fine earlier today

[Valtiel]

Haynar you might want to look at sow pots too. Posted about it in bug forum. Was trying to kite some mobs with sow pots, instead of strafing, and I'm pretty sure sow pots are the same speed as selos now, or close.

[MaCtastic]

I was AoE kiting in BW prior to restart. After restart, mobs are just fast enough to catch me.

[Malevz]

this makes playing a low level character without jboots sow pots much harder, with more deaths.I hate to see the server made harder for new people, starting out fresh is hard enough

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

for great justice

[mgellan]

I was quadding dogs in Dreadlands on my wizzie after the patch - the same mobs I was easily able to quad this afternoon kept up with me long enough to eat me with JBoots... ok if you want to nerf bards but this is going a little too far!

EDIT: Seems to be fixed now

Regards,
Mg

[Yoogoplop]

Was just checking the mobs in OT, mobs are noticeably faster. The mobs that I could keep at an exact distance while non-turn strafing last night were catching me almost instantly 5 minutes ago. Cockatrice's were moving faster tonight than Rhino's were yesterday.

[iruinedyourday]

I couldnt out run an elrosi bloodmoon in EJ with Jboots on.. i was lsike WHAT?

also while strafe running... do they get sowed? or was that this?

[Malevz]

everything is too fast right now, Haynar is looking into it. Hopefully it will get fixed for the weekend, otherwise I predict lots of deaths

[theguyy]

Too bad we can't have this only affect Bard's. Then we could see which people are actually playing them because they enjoy the class.

[Lev_Mer]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1933582#post1933582

Not intended. Investigating if a bug. Or some db update that didnt get patched before. Not sure at this point. Looking thru old patches.

H

[jhandor]

Yeah I noticed all night that goblins in sola were WAY faster than they have been in the past. But I had several deaths tonight not due to run speed.

I play once a week as a Bard with a friend, and it seems that bard mezzing is broken as well. I use to be able to AoE mez a group of mobs, and it would last at least until I could twist one song in between mezzes, or it would break slightly before I re-mezzed.

Now mezzing either results in them showing "their head nods" then they keep beating on me, or it works for about half a second then it breaks and they eat me alive.

I even tested it on some newbie mobs in the freeport area after my latest corpse run, with similar results =(.

[Lune]

Mobs are currently warping around and stuttering quite badly for me, especially when I FD and try to split. Ironically, this wasn't happening to me at all before the patch.

Good news is I'm no longer getting that annoying laggy skip that points me in a random direction.

[Daena]

If they were running slightly faster, it wouldn't be as bad as with all this warping. It's horrible :(

[Swish]

Those rods in West Cabilis were a key to stability it seems ;)

[Kileras]

Yeah I noticed all night that goblins in sola were WAY faster than they have been in the past. But I had several deaths tonight not due to run speed.

I play once a week as a Bard with a friend, and it seems that bard mezzing is broken as well. I use to be able to AoE mez a group of mobs, and it would last at least until I could twist one song in between mezzes, or it would break slightly before I re-mezzed.

Now mezzing either results in them showing "their head nods" then they keep beating on me, or it works for about half a second then it breaks and they eat me alive.

I even tested it on some newbie mobs in the freeport area after my latest corpse run, with similar results =(.


as you level BARD AoE mezz becomes more more and inefficient. By 40's or so it does absolutely nothing. BARD AoE mezz i think only semi works until about lvl 25 or so.

[Lady Julae]

You know, instead of speeding up ALL the MoBs and gimping everybody, why not just slow down the bard's normal run speed by 35%? :D

[Coridan]

I am only level 18 or so but my bard mez works awesomely at this level. It's only 1 tick so I can only twist in one other song with it though, but it has saved my life many a time.

I can tell you I am enjoying the Bard because it's a bard. I never swarm kite. The only soloing I do is for questing (just got a Brazen Brass Kilij the other day, gonna start working on Kerra Isle quests this weekend).

[thewrush]

My guess is the mob run speed while feared has something to do with this issue. I was able to quad kite in OT but did notice some succulents randomly catching up to me from time to time while I had SoW. Didn't die but it was frustrating as heck.

[dafier]

I was in DL yesterday for a while. I popped a SoW pot and it seemed like SoW to me....I wasn't paying attention too much, but it didn't seem faster.

[dafier]

BUT! A bard was 'helping me' last night too and I saw an issue and it was obvious.

[Haynar]

Working on it. I know where to look. Hopefully get a fix for speeds done later today.

I got player speeds pinned down. Working on mobs now. Dunno if i have time. But will nerf bards too if i have a chance.

H

[Morlaeth]

But will nerf bards too if i have a chance.

H

Tell me more.

[Pinolian]

Will be nice to see zones not being ruined by a few bards.

Bards are always welcome in my groups. Kiting bards get the /rude.

[Valtiel]

Working on it. I know where to look. Hopefully get a fix for speeds done later today.

I got player speeds pinned down. Working on mobs now. Dunno if i have time. But will nerf bards too if i have a chance.

H

Haynar why must you keep hurting me. If you fix runspeeds without nerfing bards I will build a statue in your honor.

As for people complaining about bards pulling "100 mobs" even with 15 mobs, if you get one... very small lag spike, you're a splatter. It's still a good option to 10 consecutive hours of lfg while people pick up classes that do more dps.

[Haynar]

I dont plan to nerf bards today.

[Pinolian]

booooooooooooooooooooo boo booo boooo

[Valtiel]

I dont plan to nerf bards today.

Your statue will be 40 stores tall. I will tell all the bards of the realm of your heroics!

[jhandor]

as you level BARD AoE mezz becomes more more and inefficient. By 40's or so it does absolutely nothing. BARD AoE mezz i think only semi works until about lvl 25 or so.

Ah I see, thanks for the clarification! I just thought I would mention it since I had never seen it before until the recent changes, but it looks like I just need more experience playing as a bard. Time to start giving the single target mezz a whirl once I level up.

[Wrench]

But will nerf bards too if i have a chance.

lol, can never tell if haynar is serious

classic nerfs only right haynar?

[Voland]

I play once a week as a Bard with a friend, and it seems that bard mezzing is broken as well. I use to be able to AoE mez a group of mobs, and it would last at least until I could twist one song in between mezzes, or it would break slightly before I re-mezzed.


I grouped with a bard yesterday and he said that he had trouble with a single target mez, we are in mid 20s.

[ECDubz]

I grouped with a bard yesterday and he said that he had trouble with a single target mez, we are in mid 20s.

I was also trying to mez yesterday and I could only get the songs to last 1 tick instead of the intended 3 ticks. After one or two seconds the mez would come off every time so i dont think they were resisting out of it.

[dafier]

Your statue will be 40 stores tall. I will tell all the bards of the realm of your heroics!

That's an excellent idea. The devs should produce and in game statue (not classic of course) that represents them and if you click it and you are on the naughty list, you die, but if you are on the good list you get a 4 hour long 9001AC buff.

:D

[Raezzor]

My mezz and lull did absolutely nothing yesterday. Got the messages "Soandso nods." or "Soandso looks sad." but absolutely no effect. Lulled one mob, pulled another a good distance from him, and got both. 4 mobs on me, PBAoE mezzed. All 4 got the sparklies. Backed off immediately and all 4 were on my like white on rice. No DoTs. No time for the mezz to wear off. Lvl 30 bard btw.

[DarthMartigan]

Sad there's a bug, but this is making me feel like i'm not a bard terrible kiter. Kited to level 23, went to OT, now I'm level 22 with 1 orange bub after a day of trying to figure it out. Missed this forum until today.

[Droog007]

If it makes you feel any better, in the classic timeline Bards were broken and subsequently fixed about every other week. Glad to hear we're pulling the nitrous bottles off the drolvargs though.

[Docx]

=(

[Sivaeb]

I was fighting Forager in TT today, got 3 frog adds so I started to run for it and zone into seb. I had SoW and was unencumbered. My pet (mage) died about 5 seconds after I ran and the frogloks were able to catch up to be. Ended up having to gate

[Sivaeb]

also messed around with Drolvargs in DL a bit today. Either their PC hitbox has gotten larger for them or they can simply hit from a mile away

[Xaanka]

Can we expect this to get fixed today?

I have also noticed the DL Drolvargs' hitboxes getting much larger, in addition to the run speed glitch.

[Trollhide]

Haynar why must you keep hurting me. If you fix runspeeds without nerfing bards I will build a statue in your honor.

As for people complaining about bards pulling "100 mobs" even with 15 mobs, if you get one... very small lag spike, you're a splatter. It's still a good option to 10 consecutive hours of lfg while people pick up classes that do more dps.
It's also often the only option due to the hybrid hate rampant on this server. Exp penalty can't be lifted fast enough

[Kixx]

For fucks sake can you please fix this god awful bullshit? The game is unplayable. Do you know how horrendous pulling is? Mobs dont even patrol back correctly, they are warping all over the god damn place. You can't even outrun shit with max level SOW without getting hit from behind the whole time. Raid pulling is atrocious.

[Duff73]

Apparently Haynar has a fix for the mob run speed thing but up to Rogean on when it goes in. As a bard though this last patch really broke quite a few things. At first the mob run speed thing was pretty bad but after trying to go and fear kite or even mez/lull it became apparent that the dot fixes pretty much broke us. I haven't even logged back in since the changes just pisses me off to much.

[fiveeauxfour]

l2play

[Duff73]

l2play

Can always log in my monk and mash 3 buttons I guess :)

[Haynar]

I have coded up fixes for mobs being too fast. Players being too fast. Mobs warping after aggro drop.

I didn't make the dot changes. So I have not looked at how that affected bards.

H

[Rararboker]

Weird since some mobs don't have this behavior while others do. In SK, aviaks and centaurs out run SoW no problem. Elephants on the other hand do not.

[Duff73]

I have coded up fixes for mobs being too fast. Players being too fast. Mobs warping after aggro drop.

I didn't make the dot changes. So I have not looked at how that affected bards.

H

It looks like Kanras did the dot tick changes has he taken a look at some of the comments regarding the ticks? I know it's affecting other classes as well notably enchanters. There's a few threads in the bug section.

[Uuruk]

Can you make it so mobs don't take dmg from bard songs if they are moving while your at it.

[Duff73]

I have coded up fixes for mobs being too fast. Players being too fast. Mobs warping after aggro drop.

I didn't make the dot changes. So I have not looked at how that affected bards.

H

Thanks H

[Valtiel]

Any idea when these changes will go live? Pulling right now is painful, and soloing is worse.

[Xaanka]

I have coded up fixes for mobs being too fast. Players being too fast. Mobs warping after aggro drop.

I didn't make the dot changes. So I have not looked at how that affected bards.

H

Between the dot changes and the mob speed glitch, Bard is 100% unplayable until further notice.

Bard offensive songs are lasting for half the duration they should be, and it is NOT just limited to damage over time's. We can't fear kite because fear and slow are only lasting for 2 ticks right now. We can't charm kite because slow and run speed is broken. We can't contribute what we are expected to a group because our mez and lull lasts for two ticks. There is no way to get EXP as a bard right now.

I know this isn't really your deal, but you're the only dev that has even acknowledged the bard offensive song issue and our class has been broken for several days now. It would be greatly appreciated if you made whoever did this dot change aware, because right now all we can assume is that nothing is being done to address it.

We're not all jerks who swarm kite, promise!

[Aviann]

I took the time to check out the effects on our mez song as well, and it seems like there is a 30% chance, after resists are set aside, that the mez doesn't mez them at all. You will get the "Soandso nods." emote, but they will continue beating the hell out of their target. So not only is it not lasting as long, it seems like it isn't working as intended whatsoever.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

these are sweet days indeed. my wildest wishes have come true. "nerf bards" is no longer the dream of madmen, but has become reality.
http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/dcc/5f8/c43/resized/heaven-s-gate-dude-meme-generator-the-nerfing-is-real-ad4b6b.jpg

[Yoogoplop]

I took the time to check out the effects on our mez song as well, and it seems like there is a 30% chance, after resists are set aside, that the mez doesn't mez them at all. You will get the "Soandso nods." emote, but they will continue beating the hell out of their target. So not only is it not lasting as long, it seems like it isn't working as intended whatsoever.

That 30% probably has to do with the timing of the ticks, meaning the tick is immediately happening and dropping your mez 30% of the time. I grouped on my bard and noticed mez was pretty awful, charm was seeming to last 4 ticks when it went full duration, meaning I could twist 3 other songs and usually time the charm to land again right when it broke. Mez is broken as all hell, the AE mez just breaks every tick, and the target mez that should be lasting 12-16 seconds breaks after 3-6 seconds every time.

People cheering about how bards can't swarm kite are idiots, bard is basically unplayable right now because half of our kit is completely broken, I'll be taking out my rage on people trying to lawyer quest me the rest of the week by charming contested mobs until a GM shows up to make a determination on who's mob it really is.

[Xaanka]

That 30% probably has to do with the timing of the ticks, meaning the tick is immediately happening and dropping your mez 30% of the time. I grouped on my bard and noticed mez was pretty awful, charm was seeming to last 4 ticks when it went full duration, meaning I could twist 3 other songs and usually time the charm to land again right when it broke. Mez is broken as all hell, the AE mez just breaks every tick, and the target mez that should be lasting 12-16 seconds breaks after 3-6 seconds every time.

People cheering about how bards can't swarm kite are idiots, bard is basically unplayable right now because half of our kit is completely broken, I'll be taking out my rage on people trying to lawyer quest me the rest of the week by charming contested mobs until a GM shows up to make a determination on who's mob it really is.

The funny thing is, since the devs have not acknowledged that bards are broken, swarming will be the only thing left we can do once movespeed gets hotfixed. Unless you count fear kiting at the speed of unbuffed auto attack. What do you think every bard on the server is going to do when they hotfix movespeed but all our other methods of killing and ability to group is still broken?

Never understood the hatred for swarming. As a new player to the server, the 10 free levels I got from stumbling upon a swarming bard was a great boon, and later on down the road as a bard I have always invited anyone in zone to leech exp or at the very least left their area alone. Most bards I've met do the same, or will do so if you send them a tell and ask.

I refuse to believe the bards on the PvE server are bigger dicks than the bards on the PvP server.

[Madbad]

Never understood the hatred for swarming. As a new player to the server, the 10 free levels I got from stumbling upon a swarming bard was a great boon, and later on down the road as a bard I have always invited anyone in zone to leech exp or at the very least left their area alone. Most bards I've met do the same, or will do so if you send them a tell and ask.

I refuse to believe the bards on the PvE server are bigger dicks than the bards on the PvP server.

I have asked on blue several times, they usually offer to do it for something outrageous like 1k per pull, lol!

Who cares though, Swarm On brothers.

[RyoGTO]

This needs to be fixed. Fast. Running from mobs right now is impossible. I have a few low level corpses that shouldn't exist right now. GL trying to do a CR without invis. And Pulling without sow? GG

[Xaanka]

I have asked on blue several times, they usually offer to do it for something outrageous like 1k per pull, lol!

Who cares though, Swarm On brothers.

I still don't see the issue, if we're talking about bards swarming to level themselves up. Maybe things are different with the high population density on blue, but don't bards stick to a small handful of zones, most of which are not popular leveling spots in the first place? When's the last time you saw a group exping in Lavastorm mountains? The OT is the only swarm zone I could realistically see a group trying to level in.

And besides, if you're at a camp already when a bard zones in to swarm, he has to leave your camps alone anyway. If they don't, that's more of a petition issue than something which needs to be nerfed.

Now 51+ bards coming to starter zones to swarm-powerlevel new characters, that's something that should be addressed.

Swarming is classic. Classic is good. :eek::eek: Don't nerf swarming, just make a server rule that you can't swarm in starter zones like Field of Bone and the problem's fixed. If you really must nerf swarm kiting, drop the hybrid class penalty for everyone early so at least bards will get invited to groups. Maybe I'm crazy but I see this as more of a policy issue than a balance issue.

[Xaanka]

This needs to be fixed. Fast. Running from mobs right now is impossible. I have a few low level corpses that shouldn't exist right now. GL trying to do a CR without invis. And Pulling without sow? GG

Almost every mob right now outruns strafe with jboots. Most mobs were outrunning my 54 druid with SOW while they were SNARED. The firiona vie goblin shamans can outrun my 50 bard with Selo's drum I'm not even kidding. This glitch is a bigger nerf for non-SOW classes trying to corpse run than bards.

[DeadlyReza]

Cleric with a clicky would be a GREAT class to be playing right now, was in unrest yesterday and I know that place is central station when it comes to trains, but half the trains weren't even making it past the fountain!

There was a clicky cleric nice enough to keep parked there cause he was playing an alt who would log him on every 30 minutes...

This is a classic patch error and I love it, all you neckbeards are making it so nostalgic with your whinging just like when you were all 16

P.s please fix this so I can solo again with my druid :D

[integrable]

Swarming is classic.

Well it is and it isnt. Yes, swarming is classic, but no casual hardware could support 100 mob swarms in 1999. You would lag and get killed before you got more than 20 or 30 mobs following you.

[Xaanka]

Well it is and it isnt. Yes, swarming is classic, but no casual hardware could support 100 mob swarms in 1999. You would lag and get killed before you got more than 20 or 30 mobs following you.

True, the amount of people swarming on live vs now is not classic, however swarming 100 mobs was definitely doable back then. I had no problems swarming most of a zone back then, but I also had pretty high end hardware and played on a non-commercial internet connection or dual 56k.

Same issue as boxing, it was classic but better hardware and no monthly fee opens it up to more players. This is an issue that should be resolved with a policy change rather than a balance change, I hope Haynar takes a moment to consider this perspective before pushing nerfs just because he doesn't like the class. There's no issue with swarming if you boot the swarmers out of starting zones -- realistically, how many new players level in OT/LS/Karanas? Why do you think sony gave bards the best move speed buff in the game with AoE's that do like 6 damage? Why do you think one of the first Kunark spells was an AoE slow? Swarming was clearly intended to be in the game.

Disclaimer: I don't even swarm kite and my bard is already leveled, I just hate seeing very non-classic game balance changes like what Haynar is alluding to when other obtuse-as-fuck game mechanics with significantly further reaching game balance consequences like AoN are intentionally left in only because they're "classic." I have nothing to gain or lose one way or another.

[Rararboker]

Did you really say that the number of people swarming isn't classic? That statement makes no sense, you know that right?

I see statements like this a lot. That is like saying people play monks too often and it isn't classic. Mechanics can or cannot be classic. What people do with those mechanics cannot be classified as classic or not. That is just ridiculous.

[Xaanka]

Did you really say that the number of people swarming isn't classic? That statement makes no sense, you know that right?

I see statements like this a lot. That is like saying people play monks too often and it isn't classic. Mechanics can or cannot be classic. What people do with those mechanics cannot be classified as classic or not. That is just ridiculous.

Oh I wholly agree with you, I was just pointing out that the "bard's couldn't swarm 100 mobs on 1999 hardware" statement is absolutely false but conceding that it is fair to say that more people swarm now. This is the exact same reason why multi boxing was allowed on live, and not on project 1999. Multi boxing was solved through a game policy change, not by nerfing wizard nukes. This should be no different. I personally see no issue with swarming how the game balance and server rules currently stand, and if camp rules aren't being enforced on the server that's a matter of needing more active guides on the server than nerfing a class. People always act like bards just come in the zone and pull everything, but fail to recognize this is already against the server rules if the bard interferes with a player's camp.

I'm with you on that. Anyone who's remotely familiar with the bard's abilities should be able to tell that swarm kiting mobs was a mechanic that Sony intended to be in the game. Without swarm kiting what is the use of the AoE songs? Why did Sony give Bards a swarm kiting song as the second song they get in Kunark (hint: to help them push for 60 by swarm kiting, regardless of if this is what people actually do or not) Why are Horns in the game?

All of these are questions that people can't answer, if they think swarming isn't classic. I'm just posting in hopes Haynar takes a moment to consider the points I'm bringing up before he pushes for Bard nerfs. Just trying to constructively offer what I think to be better solutions to the problem.

[rollin5k]

Im outrunning aviaks in SK with jboots. Gross exaggeration to say they are out running sow. They are faster though for sure

[RyoGTO]

Im outrunning aviaks in SK with jboots. Gross exaggeration to say they are out running sow. They are faster though for sure

definitely depends on the mob as some others pointed out, but all running faster.

[Xaanka]

Im outrunning aviaks in SK with jboots. Gross exaggeration to say they are out running sow. They are faster though for sure

Depends on the mobs. Some shaman mobs with SoW will outrun a Selo's bard right now. Not everything is running at the same speed right now. Aviaks are particularly slow mobs in the first place, it's not like you're talking about raptors or cats.

[integrable]

True, the amount of people swarming on live vs now is not classic, however swarming 100 mobs was definitely doable back then. I had no problems swarming most of a zone back then, but I also had pretty high end hardware and played on a non-commercial internet connection or dual 56k.

Sorry gonna call bullshit. What graphics card were you using that could handle rendering 100 mobs? How much RAM did you have? You would be lucky to get 64MB, 300 Hz card for $1000 circa the year 2000. And a good card back then had a 128 bit bus at best. And really? dual 56k? I ran off a T1 and I would lag. You're running off dual 56k? gtfo of here. I got a geforce4 in 2002 and it lagged so hard in the bazaar i had to look at the floor. Youre full of shit.

[DarthMartigan]

Depends on the mobs. Some shaman mobs with SoW will outrun a Selo's bard right now. Not everything is running at the same speed right now. Aviaks are particularly slow mobs in the first place, it's not like you're talking about raptors or cats.

This is exactly right. I was able to do some bard kiting on birds and cacti in OT, but one cacti was running faster than selos strafing.

[Xaanka]

Sorry gonna call bullshit. What graphics card were you using that could handle rendering 100 mobs? How much RAM did you have? You would be lucky to get 64MB, 300 Hz card for $1000 circa the year 2000. And a good card back then had a 128 bit bus at best. And really? dual 56k? I ran off a T1 and I would lag. You're running off dual 56k? gtfo of here. I got a geforce4 in 2002 and it lagged so hard in the bazaar i had to look at the floor. Youre full of shit.

You would lag off a T1 line? I was mostly swarming off T1 but dual 56k at home and both were doable. Dual 56k is actually pretty low latency and competitive with modern broadband in that regard, and bandwidth/reliability isn't the bottleneck with swarming. I don't remember what hardware I bought a decade and a half ago but ATI and nvidia both offered 128mb cards at a $200-300 price point in 2000. Shit I think even 3DFX did as well. Sounds like you're pulling this out your ass and your box was full of trojans in the 90's. I'll spare you the "let me google this for you" link.

Again, knowledge of the class and game mechanics was the limiting factor for swarm kiting back in classic, you don't need to pull the zone for it to be fast -- even on peasant-tier hardware you could render 20-30 mobs. Plenty of bards on Ayonae Ro and Xegony swarmed, where I played. SoE was well aware of swarming, and never nerfed it - instead, they gave bards an AoE snare to assist in swarming in the game's first expansion.

[integrable]

I don't remember what hardware I bought a decade and a half ago but ATI and nvidia both offered 128mb cards at a $200-300 price point in 2000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nvidia_graphics_processing_units#Pre-GeForce

Honestly I could be off on the price but the first 128 card didn't come out until '99. And they were like 150 Hz cards. Theres no way a card like that could render that many moving models without insane frame rate droppage.

And ya lag spikes still occured on a T1.

[Xaanka]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nvidia_graphics_processing_units#Pre-GeForce

Honestly I could be off on the price but the first 128 card didn't come out until '99. And they were like 150 Hz cards. Theres no way a card like that could render that many moving models without insane frame rate droppage.

And ya lag spikes still occured on a T1.

Lag spikes definitely happened, and bards definitely died a lot, but you could make up for the experience very quickly if you knew about the overthere bind points back then.

Article from 2000 to show you how wrong you are http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/graphics2 video card technology moves fast my man

Sorry but if the dev's didn't intend for swarming they would have set bard's aoe to 4-target like other existing spells in the game. They were left low damage and able to hit unlimited targets for a reason. Just try to argue a purpose for the Horn, Denon's, the aoe snare, etc if swarming weren't intended.

[Swish]

Can't outrun mobs with strafing anymore...they gon getcha.

http://i.imgur.com/LdCm8tR.gif

[integrable]

I never saw a bard swarm kite more two or three dozen mobs in classic. We don't know the devs intended for entire zones to be swarmed because it just didnt happen for them to see and react to it. I don't care about locking it to 4 mobs I just think there is a large discrepancy between bard swarm kiting in p99 and classic swarming.

[Xaanka]

I never saw a bard swarm kite more two or three dozen mobs in classic. We don't know the devs intended for entire zones to be swarmed because it just didnt happen for them to see and react to it. I don't care about locking it to 4 mobs I just think there is a large discrepancy between bard swarm kiting in p99 and classic swarming.

4 mobs is a tad rediculous (bards do significantly less damage per tick than druids and wizards, which can already solo 4) but I could also agree with setting a static cap of something like 10, 20, 30 targets on bard aoe damage abilities. That's more how most people swarmed on classic, a couple dozen mobs at once. Whole zone clears definitely did happen in classic but they were uncommon. Would be a fair second alternative to a policy change while keeping a minimal impact to the balance of the game.

Whole zone clears did become common around the time velious released because low end hardware could handle it and players became aware of its existence. You could swarm a zone on a $150 video card in 2001, and more like a $250-600 card in 1999-2000. Already backed this statement up with proof above.

I have nothing to back this up, but the SoE dev I knew before EQ released essentially described swarm kiting as a selling point to get me to play EQ around the time beta rolled out, so I know it's an intended mechanic. It's just a matter of digging up an old archived forum post or something, because yeah I have no proof. I seem to recall developers mention swarming several times on the forums back in the day, wouldn't be too hard to prove they were aware of it.

That and, as I've mentioned twice already, they buffed swarm kiting in Kunark. Got any explanation for that one?

[Tann]

On live, and anyone who actually played a bard then can attest, "swarm" kiting involved a handful of mobs and charm. Had nothing to do with aoe dots, just saying. Not calling BS on the above, more like wat???

Any of the classic police here will back this up

[fastboy21]

On live, and anyone who actually played a bard then can attest, "swarm" kiting involved a handful of mobs and charm. Had nothing to do with aoe dots, just saying. Not calling BS on the above, more like wat???

Any of the classic police here will back this up

depending on the server you played on different names were used. there are two types of bard kiting: "Swarm" and "AE". Names don't matter exactly, but one refers to the charm kiting (using social aggro to get a "swarm" of mobs to attack your pet then breaking your pets health at 1% and finishing it off yourself for full exp) and the other involves gathering a number of mobs together and using your AE spells to swoop around them in circles singing snares and AE dots, killing them all very slowly together.

[Tann]

depending on the server you played on different names were used.

Yea back on the nameless we called mobs fibblenibs, raids shakakadueces, and bards were actually called cliffburtons

Names don't matter exactly,.

Jokes aside, names do matter. Use the way back machine and find anything on swarm kiting, you'll see charm as the method.

That's what I was originally getting at, talking about something "classic" and using a term people in classic used for something else.

[Xaanka]

Yea back on the nameless we called mobs fibblenibs, raids shakakadueces, and bards were actually called cliffburtons



Jokes aside, names do matter. Use the way back machine and find anything on swarm kiting, you'll see charm as the method.

That's what I was originally getting at, talking about something "classic" and using a term people in classic used for something else.

Everquest was huge, all of the servers were very different. Ever been on a server where Kelethin was the trade hub? Qeynos? Exactly. MMO terminology wasn't really A Thing back then, every server probably had its own name for the strategy. Remember, back then your average player didn't know what LFG meant until someone explained it to them.

On Ayonae Ro and Xegony, AOE swarm kiting as we know it certainly did exist in classic area. Ruins of Kunark added a song to the game explicitly for the use of swarm kiting, so it's safe to say Sony was well aware of the strategy by the time Kunark was being developed.

Charm kiting was also A Thing, and nobody on any server I played on called it charm kiting back then.

So basically, semantics is the reason why searching 201* terms in the way back machine isn't giving you results. Kind of like how searching "Tesla Model S" won't give you any results about cars. I don't even think there was a term for it back then. I always personally just heard it referred to as AoEing or bard AoE. Most people didn't know about it, people who were aware didn't really advertise the strategy a whole lot in my experiences.

Your sarcastic reply to the guy saying "hey we all used different terms back then" pretty much shows you either didn't play back then, never got past level 25, or you have poor memory... EQ was the first mainstream-popular MMORPG -- it created many of the terms we use today, outside of the ones which came from regular RPG's they simply didn't exist.

Got any explanation for why the bard aoe's tick so low and hit unlimited targets when there were other aoe's in the game coded to hit a capped number? Got any explanation for why Horns are in the game when the entire line of items essentially only affects swarm kiting? How about Largo's Absonant Binding's addition at the beginning of the leveling path in Kunark? Your argument is falling apart.

Back then powerleveling hardly existed, and early levels were harder to get. Nobody knew the game and everybody died more while exping slower. Bards were very weak until level 18 and highly penalized on exp, while bringing nothing to a group until later levels. The OT didn't exist, and even when it was added it took years for most players to pick up on how good of a spot it was for bards. I personally remember OT being a pretty well kept secret amongst bards in the know. Getting a bard to the point where it could even begin to swarm was hard enough, back then it wasn't an instant level 50 bard like it is today. Swarming is a perfect example of peoples' knowledge of the game trivializing things which used to be very challenging.

Face it, you just don't like swarm kiting and you don't care about what was in the game back then or not. There's nothing wrong with that, just say it instead of arguing it wasn't in the game. As much as I disagreed with Haynar earlier, I can respect why he wants to nerf swarming because he said it: he just doesn't like it.

ok too many words.

[fastboy21]

Yea back on the nameless we called mobs fibblenibs, raids shakakadueces, and bards were actually called cliffburtons



Jokes aside, names do matter. Use the way back machine and find anything on swarm kiting, you'll see charm as the method.

That's what I was originally getting at, talking about something "classic" and using a term people in classic used for something else.

jokes aside, you missed the point. on some live servers i played on the names were mixed up...and certainly non-bards used the terms interchangeably.

the point is that names don't matter. the problem is either the charm kiting method or the AE circle method. you can call them whatever you want, but the issue has nothing to do with name so long as we all know which one we are talking about.

[Kixx]

Can't outrun mobs with strafing anymore...they gon getcha.

http://i.imgur.com/LdCm8tR.gif

fucking love it swish!

[theguyy]

Pulling is a nightmare atm. Get destroyed running mobs back to camp and if you have to FD the mobs glitch as they turn around. Think i'll wait till this is patched.

[Grimjaw]

dont even bother trying to run from backstabbing mobs at the moment

[Yoogoplop]

The argument people are giving that "the developers didn't intend for bards to swarm entire zones" is silly. If you're in a group with people who know how to use their classes more efficiently than they did in 1999, than you're arguing against yourself. The people I grouped with in classic were terrible, groups were incredibly slow comparatively. This is because people found more efficient ways to play their classes over the last 15 years, go figure.

I just watched a kid speed run a 20 year old video game in 30 minutes, it took me days to beat when I was a kid, not like he's hacking, he just knows the routes, understands the mechanics perfectly, and practiced. Same concept, getting more efficient at a really fucking old game.

[Clark]

Anyone else noticing mob run speed are a lot faster? Logged on and started soloing in OT, mobs are Usain Bolt fast

lol Usain Bolt

[Kender]

i used to AE kite on live and it was lot easier than it is here. the pbae's seemed to hit from a bit further away and the mobs hit box wasn't as big

[Daena]

Can this be fixed please? After about half dozen of deaths I've retired my 40ish wiz competely. This is not bards only issue, kiting now is near impossible when you can barely outrun regular trash with sow.

[RyoGTO]

Can this be fixed please? After about half dozen of deaths I've retired my 40ish wiz competely. This is not bards only issue, kiting now is near impossible when you can barely outrun regular trash with sow.

My level 40+ wiz friend also stopped playing his wiz due to this.

[ECDubz]

I stopped playing my bard altogether until this is resolved not because i can't swarm but i feel i can't contribute to groups at all with decent cc because of all of the songs being super short. Beneficial songs work fine but I like to provide CC when we dont have enchanters and thats not possible with the bugs that are out right now.

Mage'ing it up right now in Oasis & tradeskilling! Hope to see my bard soon!

[dafier]

I had a bard the other day Swarm kite. Wasn't easy, but he did it. Also, I saw an issue on my Mage in DL, but of recent it looks like it is fixed.

I was pulling with SoW on and some of the mobs were RIGHT ON TOP OF ME. That isn't the case as of yesterday.

EDIT:

The issue I saw was when the mob was in range to hit you, they suddenly got Bard Speed, but when they were tagged and not near you they ran normal.

[Lady Julae]

The argument people are giving that "the developers didn't intend for bards to swarm entire zones" is silly. . .

You know? I don't think it's every zone. I was swarm kiting fine in Qeynos Hills and SK the other day. I actually believe the devs sped up the mobs in select zones where they do not want bards swarm kiting , to which I agree is a good thing as it forces bards at higher levels to be group friendly classes by "classic" design.

[dafier]

You know? I don't think it's every zone. I was swarm kiting fine in Qeynos Hills and SK the other day. I actually believe the devs sped up the mobs in select zones where they do not want bards swarm kiting , to which I agree is a good thing as it forces bards at higher levels to be group friendly classes by "classic" design.

I don't know about that. Because, this last weekend I saw bards swarm kiting in FV and DL. Those are two HOT bard kite zones. I didn't check OT.

[Bristlebaner]

Want to buy full set of Lambent. Paying 2pp.

[Monty405]

Want to buy full set of Lambent. Paying 2pp.

At least offer 1pp per AC, have a heart man :(

[Naprox]

Well it is and it isnt. Yes, swarming is classic, but no casual hardware could support 100 mob swarms in 1999. You would lag and get killed before you got more than 20 or 30 mobs following you.

I invite you to pull out your dial up modem and play on that 486 pc that you played EQ on back in 1999 as well then.

[dafier]

I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but AMD K6 series and Intel 200/233 Mhz processors existed in 1999.

486 was several years old by the end of the 90s.

[Yoogoplop]

You know? I don't think it's every zone. I was swarm kiting fine in Qeynos Hills and SK the other day. I actually believe the devs sped up the mobs in select zones where they do not want bards swarm kiting , to which I agree is a good thing as it forces bards at higher levels to be group friendly classes by "classic" design.

You may misunderstand what developers are in my statement. People are stating the developers of actual live everquest in classic didn't have the foresight to see what bard swarm kiting was capable of. I'm stating they didn't have the foresight to see what a lot of the mechanics are capable of doing in the long run, and this is like every other game created in the early days.

And I'm sorry but I've not seen many bards swarm kite mistmoore but they've been running like hell too.

[Dillian]

I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but AMD K6 series and Intel 200/233 Mhz processors existed in 1999.

486 was several years old by the end of the 90s.
Confirmed lol had a 200mhz intel with 64 megs of ram

[dafier]

I had a K6 300MHz with either 64 or 128 MBs

My ex had a Intel 200MHz with the same amount of RAM.

There was a noticeable difference in performance. AMD sucked back then

[Seltius]

*Thumbs up* Bards shouldn't be able to kite whole zones!

[dafier]

*Thumbs up* Bards shouldn't be able to kite whole zones!

Yes...they should. It's classic.

[Valtiel]

I for one enjoyed my "classic" experience barding this weekend. I can't think of anything more classic than spamming LFG/trying to put together groups for 8 hours, then logging off in frustration at wasting 8 hours and accomplishing nothing. Really this is the one thing that classic live EQ had that I'm not used to from p1999, and it does bring back deja vu of live.

Sure I miss logging on for an hour or two, doing a few kites then logging for RL, but where is the "classic" experience of staring hopefully at the screen wishing for a group, and being disappointed.

[assazzin]

I for one enjoyed my "classic" experience barding this weekend. I can't think of anything more classic than spamming LFG/trying to put together groups for 8 hours, then logging off in frustration at wasting 8 hours and accomplishing nothing. Really this is the one thing that classic live EQ had that I'm not used to from p1999, and it does bring back deja vu of live.

Sure I miss logging on for an hour or two, doing a few kites then logging for RL, but where is the "classic" experience of staring hopefully at the screen wishing for a group, and being disappointed.

^^this

[Axlrose]

Hopefully this server does not follow suit on every classic move Verant / Sony did in those early days. I remember a week plus between patches when _all_ bard songs were broken! I forgot the details, but I think it was bards could not move during ~casting~ of their songs. Even during the heat of combat, swinging a weapon meant the bard moved.

Ahhh the days of getting a patch to fix the patch that was suppose to fix the patch to a broken part of the expansion. Add that Bristlebroken server seemed down more than up during those times, looking back, I must have been a masochist...

[Valtiel]

There are a few things I'd like to say to the bard 'haters' on this thread:

1. I'm sorry you're upset that bards can level faster.
2. Please don't expect people to believe you're doing a ton of exping in OT/FV/SK. On red anyway these aren't really places people go to exp. On blue are these places clamoring with people looking to exp?
3. While you dislike bards (see 1.) as several of us have pointed out not every bard is an ass. I've never turned down someone who wanted in on a group, even if all they can do is sit there. I've grouped with guilds I like, and even invited people have previously tried to kill me/root me while swarming.

What this seems to come down to is, people are angry bards exp quicker. If bards couldn't swarm people would complain about druids/wizards quadding.

One thing I'm sure of is there will always be unhappy people complaining about something.

[Adcid]

You know? I don't think it's every zone. I was swarm kiting fine in Qeynos Hills and SK the other day. I actually believe the devs sped up the mobs in select zones where they do not want bards swarm kiting , to which I agree is a good thing as it forces bards at higher levels to be group friendly classes by "classic" design.

In Freeport noobie zones all mobs are running faster. In East Commons, with SoW you cannot out run cats or bears if you run in a straight line.

This is clearly not intended. The question is, how many people have lost xp due to this bug and how long will it take those people to earn that xp back?

[ECDubz]

There are a few things I'd like to say to the bard 'haters' on this thread:

1. I'm sorry you're upset that bards can level faster.
2. Please don't expect people to believe you're doing a ton of exping in OT/FV/SK. On red anyway these aren't really places people go to exp. On blue are these places clamoring with people looking to exp?
3. While you dislike bards (see 1.) as several of us have pointed out not every bard is an ass. I've never turned down someone who wanted in on a group, even if all they can do is sit there. I've grouped with guilds I like, and even invited people have previously tried to kill me/root me while swarming.

What this seems to come down to is, people are angry bards exp quicker. If bards couldn't swarm people would complain about druids/wizards quadding.

One thing I'm sure of is there will always be unhappy people complaining about something.

Thank you for posting this. People have to realize that bard swarming IS in fact classic we can just do it better now because of the upgrade in technology since it's time. I agree with this post entirely.

[gildor]

It is classic. This hurts much more than bards..cannot get a mob in camp without it on your back beating the shit out of you..your chanter charming? well no chance in hell to get a stun off after charm break..mobs on top of you quicker than a fat kid on an cupcake..

This is stupid. haynar has fixed, but roegan has to push to the patch to the servers.

[ECDubz]

It is classic. This hurts much more than bards..cannot get a mob in camp without it on your back beating the shit out of you..your chanter charming? well no chance in hell to get a stun off after charm break..mobs on top of you quicker than a fat kid on an cupcake..

This is stupid. haynar has fixed, but roegan has to push to the patch to the servers.
Thats what i don't understand. Why haven't they rolled the patch out im sure they have most of the bugs stomped by now that the patch made im just curious as to why they havent said anything to an upcoming patch. When, Where, and Why kinda thing

Edit: Not going to pretend like i know what im talking about timing patches im more just curious if there is a special reason why they are waiting.

[kledar]

I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but AMD K6 series and Intel 200/233 Mhz processors existed in 1999.

486 was several years old by the end of the 90s.

K6, brings back memories, that was rig when I played EQ originally, stuck a voodoo 2 on it, zoning took forever until I added more ram.

[Seltius]

I personally love bards. If I ever see one lfg I try and get them invited if we have room. The bards I know are awesome players. I couldn't play one don't have the patience or desire to.

That said when xping and finding every mob I have been pulling or even trying to pull missing and then seeing them go by in mass it is frustrating. It isn't envy at the bards ability to kill it all. It is annoyance at the bard pulling everything whether someone else is there or not. Then the fact that you have the few with the arrogance enough to rub your face in it.

In the end I don't remember ever seeing bards in vanilla-Kunark kiting whole zones or even half of zones. I know the first I remember on wide scale was in I think Legacy of Ykesha I think it was either Port of Gunthrak or Harbor of Dulak that bards started kiting all the mobs.

[ECDubz]

I personally love bards. If I ever see one lfg I try and get them invited if we have room. The bards I know are awesome players. I couldn't play one don't have the patience or desire to.

That said when xping and finding every mob I have been pulling or even trying to pull missing and then seeing them go by in mass it is frustrating. It isn't envy at the bards ability to kill it all. It is annoyance at the bard pulling everything whether someone else is there or not. Then the fact that you have the few with the arrogance enough to rub your face in it.

In the end I don't remember ever seeing bards in vanilla-Kunark kiting whole zones or even half of zones. I know the first I remember on wide scale was in I think Legacy of Ykesha I think it was either Port of Gunthrak or Harbor of Dulak that bards started kiting all the mobs.
As a bard currently leveling I have always tried to provide mobs to areas that i know groups are in and when someone sends me a tell asking me if they can be left mobs i usually note the area and leave it be. But, there are definitely times where i have done that and people still complain even though i leave PLENTY of mobs up for a solo act to kill and have more up by the respawn timer. People in general just hate bards because they are bards and they have a way to pull large amounts of mobs and survive. People will complain no matter what.

[integrable]

I invite you to pull out your dial up modem and play on that 486 pc that you played EQ on back in 1999 as well then.

Played on a pentium IV with 512 MB Ram and a Gforce256 and a T1 connection I would have large fps drops when having to render more than 30 or 40 models. I had to look at the floor in the bazaar in luclin with that setup not even running most of the luclin models. Dont try and tell me a casual setup could support rendering 100 moving models. Gonna call bs on you also.

[Valtiel]

I agree with what is being said here. More staring at the floor during the long hours of LFG would bring back a more classic experience.

[integrable]

You could swarm a zone on a $150 video card in 2001, and more like a $250-600 card in 1999-2000. Already backed this statement up with proof above.

That article is typical computer magazine graphics card hype. It tells you what the card can do when its overclocked perfectly and running off like a fucking linux operating system on a setup with what may as well be an infinite amount of RAM for the cpu. IDC that a graphics card can run Quake 3 Arena at 60fps under those circumstances. A game like Quake is going to have fewer models and textures and smaller zones than EQ, doesn't require nearly as much to be kept in the virtual memory of the card, and is not going to need as high a frequency or bit rate for data transfer. And I cant remember playing Quake with anywhere near 50 models on my screen at once.

And I already admitted to being wrong about the pricing. I couldn't remember the price of card, but inflation hasn't changed much so i thought it might be similar to today. Regardless I ran a Pentium IV with 512MB ram and a 128 MB card and the setup couldn't handle anywhere near 100 models. I still have the computer too. Maybe I'll mail it too you and you can try swarming on your Bard if you are really so confident it can handle it.

[Lady Julae]

Thank you for posting this. People have to realize that bard swarming IS in fact classic we can just do it better now because of the upgrade in technology since it's time. I agree with this post entirely.

Bard kiting IS classic, but I do not think the SOE developers meant for them to kite more than 4 mobs at a time. It was dang near impossible back in 99 due to internet limits. As a poster mentioned before, bards trying to kite like 20 or so mobs would crash.

I play a bard myself, and I do not kite more than 4, just out of courtesy. That said, just because technology allows one to kite 20+ mobs now, doesn't mean that is the classic intent of the original vision of EQ back in 1999. So if the P99 devs intended to speed the mobs up due to excessive bard kiting, I applaud that, however, other classes are suffering and a different solution needs to be implemented, such as maybe bards incur no aggro from mobs if they are causing damage/being aggroed by four mobs at once.

[ECDubz]

Bard kiting IS classic, but I do not think the SOE developers meant for them to kite more than 4 mobs at a time. It was dang near impossible back in 99 due to internet limits. As a poster mentioned before, bards trying to kite like 20 or so mobs would crash.

I play a bard myself, and I do not kite more than 4, just out of courtesy. That said, just because technology allows one to kite 20+ mobs now, doesn't mean that is the classic intent of the original vision of EQ back in 1999. So if the P99 devs intended to speed the mobs up due to excessive bard kiting, I applaud that, however, other classes are suffering and a different solution needs to be implemented, such as maybe bards incur no aggro from mobs if they are causing damage/being aggroed by four mobs at once.

Yes, they need to make it in a way not affect other classes. But, if the community wants the P99 Developers to enforce something like maximum number of mobs a bard can kite then that needs to be stated in the Play Nice Policy or the server rules instead of people getting mad and posting on the forums about how unfair it is. Its causing too much drama and unnecessary hate towards bards as a class and making them hated just because of their class choice shouldn't be part of our community.

[Halius]

I've never had a bad experience with a bard and I also do not play a bard. It just seems to me that trying to nerf them because of advances in computers is just dumb. The fact is the mechanics were there in Classic, our PCs just couldn't handle it. It's the same as someone arguing that you shouldn't be using cable as that makes you play better. It seems to me if they are going to nerf bards for something they COULD do in classic, then they might as well limit all our bandwidths to 56k when we connect to the server, that sounds like a lot of fun.

[Valtiel]

Wasn't actually a nerf, was just an error in the patch which has been corrected and yet to be deployed. People just got all excited because of the bard jealousy.

[Halius]

I've never had a bad experience with a bard and I also do not play a bard. It just seems to me that trying to nerf them because of advances in computers is just dumb. The fact is the mechanics were there in Classic, our PCs just couldn't handle it. It's the same as someone arguing that you shouldn't be using cable as that makes you play better. It seems to me if they are going to nerf bards for something they COULD do in classic, then they might as well limit all our bandwidths to 56k when we connect to the server (assuming that is possible), that sounds like a lot of fun.

Damn edit button, didn't mean to quote just meant to edit my above post.

[Xaanka]

That article is typical computer magazine graphics card hype. It tells you what the card can do when its overclocked perfectly and running off like a fucking linux operating system on a setup with what may as well be an infinite amount of RAM for the cpu. IDC that a graphics card can run Quake 3 Arena at 60fps under those circumstances. A game like Quake is going to have fewer models and textures and smaller zones than EQ, doesn't require nearly as much to be kept in the virtual memory of the card, and is not going to need as high a frequency or bit rate for data transfer. And I cant remember playing Quake with anywhere near 50 models on my screen at once.

And I already admitted to being wrong about the pricing. I couldn't remember the price of card, but inflation hasn't changed much so i thought it might be similar to today. Regardless I ran a Pentium IV with 512MB ram and a 128 MB card and the setup couldn't handle anywhere near 100 models. I still have the computer too. Maybe I'll mail it too you and you can try swarming on your Bard if you are really so confident it can handle it.

I actually play on a laptop I bought in 2002, never had a problem swarming on P99.

[Xaanka]

Bard kiting IS classic, but I do not think the SOE developers meant for them to kite more than 4 mobs at a time. It was dang near impossible back in 99 due to internet limits. As a poster mentioned before, bards trying to kite like 20 or so mobs would crash.

I play a bard myself, and I do not kite more than 4, just out of courtesy. That said, just because technology allows one to kite 20+ mobs now, doesn't mean that is the classic intent of the original vision of EQ back in 1999. So if the P99 devs intended to speed the mobs up due to excessive bard kiting, I applaud that, however, other classes are suffering and a different solution needs to be implemented, such as maybe bards incur no aggro from mobs if they are causing damage/being aggroed by four mobs at once.

Explain why wizard and druid quad kiting abilities are capped at 4 target and bard AoE's are not then. Sony gave two lines of spells to two different classes for the purpose of quad-kiting mobs, meaning they already considered the implications of capping targets on an aoe ability, why would the bard song be coded any differently if it were intended to be used the same way? Why does the bard song tick for like 5 damage and the druid/wiz spells tick for hundreds? Swarming was intended. An SOE dev telling me about swarming before the game released was one of the main selling points that got me to play EQ. Obviously I can't prove a verbal conversation that took place almost two decades ago -- the proof is in the game mechanics, which I have yet to see a legitimate argument against.

That said when xping and finding every mob I have been pulling or even trying to pull missing and then seeing them go by in mass it is frustrating. It isn't envy at the bards ability to kill it all. It is annoyance at the bard pulling everything whether someone else is there or not. Then the fact that you have the few with the arrogance enough to rub your face in it.

Bards aren't magically exempt from the server's camp rules, so this is already covered. They must leave everyone in zone's camps alone or face suspension. Why does everyone seem to think it isn't against the server rules for a bard to pull an occupied zone?

Hopefully this server does not follow suit on every classic move Verant / Sony did in those early days. I remember a week plus between patches when _all_ bard songs were broken! I forgot the details, but I think it was bards could not move during ~casting~ of their songs. Even during the heat of combat, swinging a weapon meant the bard moved.

Ahhh the days of getting a patch to fix the patch that was suppose to fix the patch to a broken part of the expansion. Add that Bristlebroken server seemed down more than up during those times, looking back, I must have been a masochist...

I love how I have a bunch of 50+ characters and they're all borderline unplayable, and I can't even farm to start a new class. Shitty timing to get my account with my banked plat suspended :(

Again, swarming was clearly intended to be in the game. There's nothing wrong with just coming out and saying you don't like swarming, but it's silly seeing people in here pretending like they played classic but somehow never heard of a bard on their server swarming??? I have no issues with the dev's saying "hey guys we don't like swarming, we're taking it out of the game" but pretending it isn't classic and wasn't intended to be in the game is inaccurate and you're all arguing this point simply because you don't like it.

Fair compromises? Cap swarming at 30 targets. Or cap swarming at ~10 and increase the damage of bard aoe to be more in line with ~30% of swarm class dot ticks (there will be no balance implications outside of swarming) Or make a server policy change to ban swarming from starting zones.

You know what gets in the way of levelers more than bard swarming? Druid swarm-thorns powerleveling. Or monk FD powerleveling. You know, things people do in dungeons that new players actually level in. There's a much more legitimate case for indoor powerlevelers interfering with levelers than swarm kiters.

[Xaanka]

I regularly pull the first two floors and entire yard of unrest, the entire crushbone zone, or the entire basement of kurn's tower to powerlevel new players on red and I have never once heard anybody whine about this strategy on the forums. I do this on a druid. Nerf /sit.

[Shweet]

Would really enjoy a fix to go in on this...anyone's experience is getting shit on by mobs outrunning sow+strafing.............

Probably would be nice to throw another double xp fest after a week of this shit. Charm killing is probably the dumbest i've ever seen it before atm.

[everqchris]

i used to have voodoo 2 sli then upgraded to a geforce 2 pro or ultra and i swarmed 20-50 ish mobs on a regular basis during kunark era. i can't remember for sure but i believe i had to have spell effects down or off.

[Valtiel]

Would really enjoy a fix to go in on this...anyone's experience is getting shit on by mobs outrunning sow+strafing.............

Probably would be nice to throw another double xp fest after a week of this shit. Charm killing is probably the dumbest i've ever seen it before atm.

Personally double exp is nothing compared to getting some exp again. Please fix this.

[bandaloop]

Would really enjoy a fix to go in on this...anyone's experience is getting shit on by mobs outrunning sow+strafing.............

Probably would be nice to throw another double xp fest after a week of this shit. Charm killing is probably the dumbest i've ever seen it before atm.

Agreed!

[Sorn]

Ran around in LOIO today and did not notice any change in mob run speed. Outran all mobs with SoW, even if they weren't snared.

There was also a very polite bard doing some kiting in the zone, along with civil conversation about and with said bard, so I may have just been in Bizarro EQ land for the day.

[Yoogoplop]

If you don't send random hate tells to a bard who probably doesn't see you saying they're ruining your experience, most of them aren't ass hats. I've had more assholes send me tells on my bard that I didn't see or wrong in anyway, than seen asshole bards when on other characters. By far~

When you randomly accuse someone of shitting on your day when they didn't know you existed prior to the tell, chances are the interaction will be less pleasant than it could have been if you started the conversation in a neutral or kind manner. People paint bards as assholes for kiting, but chances are most will either leave you mobs, or just concede the area so they don't interrupt the play of a group if you just politely talk to them.

[Champion_Standing]

If you don't send random hate tells to a bard who probably doesn't see you saying they're ruining your experience, most of them aren't ass hats. I've had more assholes send me tells on my bard that I didn't see or wrong in anyway, than seen asshole bards when on other characters. By far~

When you randomly accuse someone of shitting on your day when they didn't know you existed prior to the tell, chances are the interaction will be less pleasant than it could have been if you started the conversation in a neutral or kind manner. People paint bards as assholes for kiting, but chances are most will either leave you mobs, or just concede the area so they don't interrupt the play of a group if you just politely talk to them.

/who helps with that.

[ECDubz]

Probably would be nice to throw another double xp fest after a week of this shit.

Good luck with that.

[WolfsongReborn]

Glad I found this thread. I had noticed this on my baby druid that when fighting and having to run from a bad fight. I could barely outrun stuff with sow. Sometimes I couldn't outrun them at all and died. This was before I was so low on hp I slowed down or was encumbered.

Crap was simply faster than I was with sow on.

[Sorn]

If you don't send random hate tells to a bard who probably doesn't see you saying they're ruining your experience, most of them aren't ass hats. I've had more assholes send me tells on my bard that I didn't see or wrong in anyway, than seen asshole bards when on other characters. By far~

When you randomly accuse someone of shitting on your day when they didn't know you existed prior to the tell, chances are the interaction will be less pleasant than it could have been if you started the conversation in a neutral or kind manner. People paint bards as assholes for kiting, but chances are most will either leave you mobs, or just concede the area so they don't interrupt the play of a group if you just politely talk to them.

Well, yeah, that's obvious. People don't like getting yelled at and called names right off the bat. The public conversation, though, did start out with "Hey bard stop stealing my stuff, damn bard" and would have dissolved into the usual hatefest if the bard hadn't kept their temper and been very accommodating. Same goes for high levels camping something that requires mass destruction of mobs in a zone. I've had several instances where high levels spot me pulling in an area where they're killing everything and specifically ask me (without prompting) what I was xping off of so they could leave some of those up for me.

Anyway, just wanted to note in this thread that I was not seeing a difference in mob run speeds in LOIO.

[everqchris]

I was being outrun by skeletons in LOIO while strafe running and had selos with mm drum at level 18

[Adcid]

seems like most of the run speed issues have been resolved. This morning after the restart I am able to outrun some mobs with strafe. They do still seem a little faster than a week ago, but I'm sure people wont have problems running back to camps with mobs hitting them in the back.

[mystang89]

I might have missed a reply from the staff but have any of them said anything about this other than saying it was being looked at yet?

[Kileras]

seems like most of the run speed issues have been resolved. This morning after the restart I am able to outrun some mobs with strafe. They do still seem a little faster than a week ago, but I'm sure people wont have problems running back to camps with mobs hitting them in the back.


what zone did you do this in? been testing it every day with the exact same results. even with celo's on and NO drum i still get hit while strafe running.

[Kahlid74]

Ran around in LOIO today and did not notice any change in mob run speed. Outran all mobs with SoW, even if they weren't snared.

There was also a very polite bard doing some kiting in the zone, along with civil conversation about and with said bard, so I may have just been in Bizarro EQ land for the day.

That was me. I'm a bit of an odd duck when it comes to swarm kiting. If you follow the guides you are supposed to drain every monster you can for efficiency sakes. For me, I like to stay around 20-30 mobs. It's perhaps not as efficient but I enjoy it and it leaves a healthy supply of mobs still around the area of other people pulling. I also am not super skilled, so when I mess up, the likely hood of surviving 20 mobs is quite different than 60.

I also try to OOC when I am swarm kiting in a zone so if people have an issue they can just tell me and we can talk it out.

What I've noticed is that if you are running with SoW you might not notice it when you run by a mob but if you get in melee range and then try to flee, the monster hits you WAY more than it did before. It's like the mobs top speed might not be that much different but their acceleration speeds is much higher.

[Kahlid74]

I was being outrun by skeletons in LOIO while strafe running and had selos with mm drum at level 18

So here is the rub, Selo's gets faster with every level. I have a hard time believing with a drum you were being caught but it may be possible. Yesterday (Level 29) I was swarm kiting 20 skelies in LoIO with Selos and a horn and was never caught as long as I strafe ran. If I stoped strafing and ran forward they could wack me.

So somewhere maybe in the 34-36 selo's with no drum and strafe running becomes faster than the mobs?

[Sorn]

That was me. I'm a bit of an odd duck when it comes to swarm kiting. If you follow the guides you are supposed to drain every monster you can for efficiency sakes. For me, I like to stay around 20-30 mobs. It's perhaps not as efficient but I enjoy it and it leaves a healthy supply of mobs still around the area of other people pulling. I also am not super skilled, so when I mess up, the likely hood of surviving 20 mobs is quite different than 60.

I also try to OOC when I am swarm kiting in a zone so if people have an issue they can just tell me and we can talk it out.

What I've noticed is that if you are running with SoW you might not notice it when you run by a mob but if you get in melee range and then try to flee, the monster hits you WAY more than it did before. It's like the mobs top speed might not be that much different but their acceleration speeds is much higher.

Well, hey there! I like you.

I don't let myself get into melee range most of the time, so maybe that's it. I was definitely outrunning them (constantly getting out of casting range) otherwise.

[Valtiel]

seems like most of the run speed issues have been resolved. This morning after the restart I am able to outrun some mobs with strafe. They do still seem a little faster than a week ago, but I'm sure people wont have problems running back to camps with mobs hitting them in the back.

Don't tease me. Is this true? Will there be exp after work instead of hours LFG followed by crying in the dark?!

[Haynar]

seems like most of the run speed issues have been resolved. This morning after the restart I am able to outrun some mobs with strafe. They do still seem a little faster than a week ago, but I'm sure people wont have problems running back to camps with mobs hitting them in the back.

There was an issue with mob movement that caused NPCs to have like a stutter step. This caused some of the steps that are at 100 msec intervals to happen 2 or 3 times. This happened on average once every 5-10 secs normally. In other instances more. Fixing the stutter, and some int rounding made the calcs more precise. So other corrections were way over the top. Like +25% to mob speeds. Thats what happened that mobs sucked so bad.

I got everything matched back up. Added better rounding for int conversions. Mob speeds should be maybe 2-5% faster than original. They are much closer to what they should be now. That extra 25% should be gone now too.

H

[Valtiel]

It's fixed? I'm not sure whether to cry that I can exp again without hours of LFG, or buy Haynar a present. Perhaps both. I feel a sick day coming on at work!

[Whirled]

It's fixed? I'm not sure whether to cry that I can exp again without hours of LFG, or buy Haynar a present. Perhaps both. I feel a sick day coming on at work!

If we bought staff beers... would that = RMT?

[Haynar]

Should be fixed. Bard songs being short a tic should be fixed. Mobs warping after losing aggro should be fixed. Warp speed from sow should be fixed.

H

[Kahlid74]

Swarm kiting in FV, Drolvargs, first time for me. They feel like they are gaining on me but strafing definitely is working like it did before.

[Valtiel]

If we bought staff beers... would that = RMT?

I'd be up for buying beers for the staff. Specially Haynar. Playing a bard on red99 is the most fun I've had since live. When I come home from work I'm excited to play, and I appreciate that the staff makes that possible.

[Haynar]

I don't drink. But thanks tho.

I have been considering adding a donate link in my sig. That way i can get me a newer laptop off ebay. I do a lot of my dev work on a 7 year old c2d laptop. Not a priority until something breaks. So not currently a plan to do anything.

H

[Valtiel]

I will donate to Haynar's new laptop. Pras good sir!

Also the only reason not to drink is if your hands don't reach your mouth, that's why straws were invented.

[mystang89]

Thanks for the hard work Haynar and staff!

[Kahlid74]

I don't drink. But thanks tho.

I have been considering adding a donate link in my sig. That way i can get me a newer laptop off ebay. I do a lot of my dev work on a 7 year old c2d laptop. Not a priority until something breaks. So not currently a plan to do anything.

H

Put up a donate sig. I'll donate too. That's a mighty old laptop.

[Adcid]

what zone did you do this in? been testing it every day with the exact same results. even with celo's on and NO drum i still get hit while strafe running.

Tested in OverThere this morning. made my kite turns a little larger to adjust for the speeds of mobs, but at least they aren't whacking me during a strafe run.

[Civenge]

Thank you for fixing the mob run speed bug. I look forward to being able to solo again when I can't find a group.

[Adcid]

Swarm kiting in FV, Drolvargs, first time for me. They feel like they are gaining on me but strafing definitely is working like it did before.

Agreed. They are gaining a little fast, if I put a % on it I would say its the 2-5% Haynar said in a response to me in thread.

[integrable]

I actually play on a laptop I bought in 2002, never had a problem swarming on P99.

100% a lie. lets hear the specs on that laptop at the very least to back up your complete bullshit statement.

[Haynar]

100% a lie. lets hear the specs on that laptop at the very least to back up your complete bullshit statement.

When did they start having dx9 support in laptops?

H

[Halius]

According to the web, dx9 released in December of 2002

[Adcid]

When did they start having dx9 support in laptops?

I quick google search found troubleshooting forums back in 2004 where people with portable computers needed Dx9b drivers for their supported integrated chipset to game.

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/laptop/f/3519/t/6561765

[integrable]

I regularly pull the first two floors and entire yard of unrest, the entire crushbone zone, or the entire basement of kurn's tower to powerlevel new players on red and I have never once heard anybody whine about this strategy on the forums. I do this on a druid. Nerf /sit.

I will agree with this. Having a druid pull all of CB or unrest to powerlevel their friend then insulting you through tells cus you try to take one of his mobs when there are no other spawns up is way more annoying than Bard kiting. I don't think I am the one stealing mobs when you pulled from our groups camp.

[Valtiel]

One of the nice things about the exp bonus on red is, if you invite someone, because of the bonus, you don't get less exp per kill. So if you're ae'ing there's no reason not to toss some solo person an invite, even if they just need some free exp and can't help. <3 Red.

[Christmas]

Just ran through OT.

Mobs were running at un-drummed celos speed.

[Duff73]

Just ran through OT.

Mobs were running at un-drummed celos speed.

You sure that was fixed about 2 weeks ago.

[Dillian]

i used to aoe kite in 2003. The cougars in iceclad were my best friends

[Slave35]

It's still pretty far out of whack. I can tell because the seafuries are using the run animation while Ensnared. There's no way that should be the case.