Creating new character... Shadow Knight or Paladin?

[Beinen]

So, I think the subject line basically sums this topic up. I would like to create a new class, but not sure on what would have the best outcome. I know both classes well. I've played both on live years ago. I am wondering what is needed/desired more in P99 or if someone really has opinion that neither of those classes would be beneficial or have great outcome. Please, give me your opinions!!!

-Korilen(new to server)

[Riotgirl]

Paladin. I would prefer to play SK, due to: Iksar, DE or a Troll for SK, but Paladins are an endangered species on P99 and need some love. Bonus points for choosing Erudite Paladin.

What are your goals for playing either of the Tank classes?

[Sorn]

Paladins are far more righteous than Shadowknights! Go good!

[B4EQWASCOOL]

If you see a sleeping kitten and want to kick it, SK. If it gives you a warm-fuzzy feeling, PAL.

[Beinen]

Do the whole tank/off tank, support thing. I'd really like to group some of the areas I haven't seen/played in years.

[JayN]

sks are rocking right now with un classic upgraded spells and broken fd

[jarshale]

Not a lot of paladins around. I'd go with that.

[Beinen]

Typically if I were one of the required group roles it should be easier for me to lead or join a group in some of these far off lands.

[Tenlaar]

If you're going to play well, be a paladin. If you're going to be a mediocre, bare minimum kind of player, be a shadow knight.

[Brut]

If you want to have a character that you log on to cast Brell's on people and log out to a real class, be a paladin.
If you're going to be having fun, be a shadow knight.

[Beinen]

Paladin it is then! now... the race? 1 vote for erudite already

[Tenlaar]

Dwarf.

[Sorn]

High elf!

Odus is kind of a sucky starting place.

[Swish]

Shadow Knight

You can prebuild next target aggro a lot better on a SK... also your taunt spells don't cause mobs to flee, and you don't need to wait for stun to wear off before it gets to you.

Stay evil, stay SK.

[Beinen]

I like that theory though...

[Swish]

Despite my heavy bias towards SKs, if you're definitely going paladin - consider a high elf/half elf Tunare paladin for "Nature's Defender (http://wiki.project1999.com/Natures_Defender)"

Nothing too game changing but its another weapon to play with come Velious ;)

[Susano]

Paladin it is then! now... the race? 1 vote for erudite already

Save yourself a reroll and be an SK. FD is an incredibly useful tool and should weigh heavy in this decision. Ogre for race if you want to min max, otherwise choose whatever looks best to you in plate.

[Sorn]

Go Tunare. We will protect the light of Norrath in the name of the Mother! With her blessing, cut down the evil that plagues the world and cure the pernicious rot that crawls through our forests and deserts, seeking to destroy all that is good.

[Pint]

paladin, shadowknights are garbage and server scum. except nuktari, that guys the man

[kaev]

half elf, best looking, best choice unless you go velious minmax tunare, then yuck
erudite, second best looking & rarest, second best choice
human, not common, ok choice
high elf, velious minmax choice, yuck
dorf, generic twink, kunark minmax choice, maybe 1 in 10 learns to play the class well, exceptionally poor choice unless you want to be another mindless crowd follower

[Vallanor]

Go erudite either way!

[Ando]

I've had a /lot/ of fun tanking on my paladin. Aggro spells + bash (for spellcasters) makes tanking very interactive, and LOHing the enchanter in your group at 1% after a bad mez resist elicits some pretty awesome responses. You can really lead a dungeon diving group as a paladin. By far the best group tanking class IMO. Sure, SKs do more damage, but tanking is not about damage.

They are both fun, but LOH is a game-changer. If you roll on Red then HT might be something worth rolling SK for.

[Aviann]

paladin, shadowknights are garbage and server scum. except nuktari, that guys the man

Truf.

[fiveeauxfour]

paladins are kickass group tanks. SKs can help with the pull team

[kaev]

paladin, shadowknights are garbage and server scum. except kaev, that guys the man

ftfy ;)

[wormed]

Shadow Knight

You can prebuild next target aggro a lot better on a SK... also your taunt spells don't cause mobs to flee, and you don't need to wait for stun to wear off before it gets to you.

Stay evil, stay SK.

Probably the first person to actually understand the differences between Paladins and SKs.

To clarify, both classes are aggro fiends. Neither is better than the other. However, as a Paladin I usually have to stun -> reset GCD -> flash of light to effectively hold onto a mob after a mez. There are times where I wish I had disease cloud for sure. Not to knock on SK's, but Paladin's in this regard just make you have to be aware of how you work your Flash of Lights. If you're a good Paladin, you will almost never have FoL issues except for the occasional mem blur issue from Enchanters.

[Voland]

sks are rocking right now with un classic upgraded spells and broken fd

How is fd broken?

[Kope]

Paladin can prebuild aggro just fine and paladin aggro isn't based off of actual damage, damage just adds to their aggro :D.

Paladins can also help CC in any group with root.

Paladins can assist healing with...heals or DW helm.

Paladins can lock down pretty much any mob from casting on your pullers or in groups with stuns/bash.

Paladins get a group heal in Velious...even if it is medicore it still helps.

Paladin LoH is group saving if you know how to play it.

If you want to do lots of work but make a difference in your groups be a paladin.

SKs aren't bad, but paladins have a TON of utility for groups and can do a TON if played correctly.

Food for thought, the only thing SKs will do better than Monks in Velious (other than PVP) is snap aggro :D Paladins are unique and there are so few of them, and even fewer people who realize their full potential as a paladin.

[kaev]

When you need FD, Paladin has "/g DON'T HEAL ME" "/g drag & rez after i die please"
When you need Snare, Paladin has "/g CLERIC CAMP NOW" "/g dammit don't nuke when i root a runner you moran"

When you need heals, SK has FD "/g sorry you died mate"
When you need CC, SK has FD "/g sorry you died mate"

It's all about who loses the XP when the group fails. ;)




Both classes are very good group tanks played well. Play well and you've made the right choice.

[Clark]

If you want to have a character that you log on to cast Brell's on people and log out to a real class, be a paladin.
If you're going to be having fun, be a shadow knight.

[username17]

You can prebuild next target aggro a lot better on a SK... also your taunt spells don't cause mobs to flee, and you don't need to wait for stun to wear off before it gets to you.


How do SKs prebuild aggro on next target? Aren't all SK aggro spells damage spells that break mez?
Paladins can use their 0 dmg stun on broken pets or mezzed targets to prebuild aggro as you called it.

I know little about SKs. I am very biased towards Paladins as I have one that is level 57.

[Clark]

They have ac debuff and str debuff. Not that commonly used, but if you're trying to not break mez is a good route.

[rubicaant]

How do SKs prebuild aggro on next target? Aren't all SK aggro spells damage spells that break mez?
Paladins can use their 0 dmg stun on broken pets or mezzed targets to prebuild aggro as you called it.

I know little about SKs. I am very biased towards Paladins as I have one that is level 57.

Shadow Vortex is pretty good agro, and doesn't break mez.

[Hijiri]

Iksar sk so you can feel da power of http://wiki.project1999.com/Greenmist

[Raev]

Food for thought, the only thing SKs will do better than Monks in Velious (other than PVP) is snap aggro :D

Monks have the rep, but the best pullers in Velious will actually be Necromancers (2x DA, 2x FD).

[Swish]

Typically pre shadow vortex on a mob allows you to pull the next mob to you with disease cloud when you break mez... not always the case if the mob has been mezzed a few times but for minimal downtime it knocks 7 shades out of a paladin.

Watch him charge his stun, watch the mob get stunned, watch the mob run to you... engage... ughh :p

[wormed]

Typically pre shadow vortex on a mob allows you to pull the next mob to you with disease cloud when you break mez... not always the case if the mob has been mezzed a few times but for minimal downtime it knocks 7 shades out of a paladin.

Watch him charge his stun, watch the mob get stunned, watch the mob run to you... engage... ughh :p

To be fair, lvl30 gets resisted a helluva lot at the later stages but I get what you're saying. :p

[Kope]

Watch him charge his stun, watch the mob get stunned, watch the mob run to you... engage... ughh :p

If a paladin is paying attention to how much the mob was mez'd you can either stun when you're fighting the first mob then try to stun again, or stun then FoL, or stun then Root. Paladins have a lot of tools to deal with many situations, a good paladin will never let the ench get hit from pre mez'd mobs :D, plus keep mobs from nuking him/others (which sks can't do anywhere close to as well).

[Swish]

I think what irks me is that if you FoL from a distance it's just going to cause the mob to flee. That mechanic really grinds my gears and puts me off them :(

[wormed]

I think what irks me is that if you FoL from a distance it's just going to cause the mob to flee. That mechanic really grinds my gears and puts me off them :(

It's annoying, true, but you just learn to stun before FoL.

[Kope]

I think what irks me is that if you FoL from a distance it's just going to cause the mob to flee. That mechanic really grinds my gears and puts me off them :(

That's kinda the beauty of FoL though, if you're in melee range it's almost another instant aggro mechanic, just need to be careful with it. Learn the tool and it'll make your life easy! Also if FoL just resists it's a ton of aggro in itself.

[Danth]

Either class gives good service for folks who enjoy being a tank for group and lower end raids. If you want to main tank raid bosses, make a Warrior of course. The Paladin is more defensively specialized, while the Shadow Knight provides superior quality of life for traveling around and fighting solo. The Shadow Knight enjoys modestly more popularity on P1999 (the Paladin being probably the least-played class), but still isn't particularly common.

Both the Paladin and the Shadow Knight can build hate on mesmerized monsters (via Stun or Shadow Vortex, respectively). At the same time, most don't bother to do so in practice because most players are lazy. Flash of Light's drawback sucks if you aren't familiar with the class, but once you get used to it (and account for it) you stop noticing. Disease Cloud has its own drawback in terms of putting a damage over time component on the target and hence rendering the target un-mezzable, so pick your poison.

Paladins have a modest advantage over the Shadow Knight as a tank in lower end content, and particularly when the tank's grouped with low-quality players who don't play to their full abilities. Stuns, root, and heals give the Paladin a good level of defensive control; the Shadow Knight largely depends on his group mates to do these jobs. Lull is also a lot faster than feign splitting whenever the former's an option, plus the Paladin can ensure his group has proper buffs when the group happens to have a Shaman or Druid as healer instead of a Cleric. On the other hand, the Shadow Knight pulls ahead of the Paladin in very high-level content. Lulls are virtually useless against high level, highly resistant opponents. Stuns work only poorly against the same and don't work at all against giants, dragons, or anything higher than level 55 (note what there's a lot of in Velious...). Paladin root doesn't hold well at high levels, and most casters have better root spells anyhow. Feign pulling and Snare become much more important at this level.

To address a different point, the Monk *already* out-everythings the Shadow Knight except snap aggro. The power gap actually lowers somewhat after Velious has been out awhile due to the many hybrid improvements which come along, but the Monk always remains the stronger class. Snap aggro and general convenience count for a lot, however. Ultimately the Shadow Knight can do much of what a Monk can, but typically trades off speed for some added safety.

As a first character on P1999, between the two I'd favor the Paladin simply because its gear is extremely cheap and tanks are hard enough to start out as.

Danth

[theaetatus]

If you want to tank just roll a warrior. No xp penalty which will be nice when you start out and all-round better tanking in later levels.

[rotenvok]

If you want to tank just roll a warrior. No xp penalty which will be nice when you start out and all-round better tanking in later levels.

xp penalties dont exist with velious. Am I right?

[Alukardo666]

xp penalties dont exist with velious. Am I right?

Only class penalties will be removed. Racial penalties will still be in effect. If I'm not mistaken.

[Swish]

Yes, and if you're playing an iksar shadow knight on launch night it's time to realize now that the hybrid penalty removal isn't until later in the timeline.

I've got this vision of 400 new/returning/waiting hybrids looking to group before the right patch not knowing.

[Laugher]

Not sure if linked already, but you may want to read this with regards to pallys

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108428

(note: I have not played a paladin or sk past level 10 here)

[Alukardo666]

Not sure if linked already, but you may want to read this with regards to pallys

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108428

(note: I have not played a paladin or sk past level 10 here)

That post... Purr gold hahaha

[Morlaeth]

Tunare Paladin for good sword in Velious

[wormed]

Tunare Paladin for good sword in Velious

Or just get epic and have a better weapon?

[wormed]

If you want to tank just roll a warrior. No xp penalty which will be nice when you start out and all-round better tanking in later levels.

Right and wrong. Eventually, come Velious, Knights will be moved to the same tables as Warriors, which will make them far and away better tanks vs most mobs due to snap aggro ability. Warriors will always be the definitive tanks when it comes to raid mobs due to certain disciplines.

Aside from raid mobs, Knights will be more effective tanks as a whole.

[nyclin]

Or just get epic and have a better weapon?

Except the Tunare sword takes like an hour or two with a single group, versus the entire Paladin epic.

[Samoht]

Paladin it is then! now... the race? 1 vote for erudite already

Only real choices listed below:

Paladin + Half-elf + Tunare = Nature's Defender (http://wiki.project1999.com/Natures_Defender)

Iksar + Shadow Knight = Greenmist (http://wiki.project1999.com/Greenmist)

Everything else is moot.

[Bionic]

Nature's Defender:

http://epicquestadventures.tripod.com/images/natures_defender_worn.jpg

So good...

[Destron]

Isn't the Paladin Epic quite easy?

[Kender]

When you need FD, Paladin has "/g DON'T HEAL ME" "/g drag & rez after i die please"
When you need Snare, Paladin has "/g CLERIC CAMP NOW" "/g dammit don't nuke when i root a runner you moran"

When you need heals, SK has FD "/g sorry you died mate"
When you need CC, SK has FD "/g sorry you died mate"
It's all about who loses the XP when the group fails. ;)




Both classes are very good group tanks played well. Play well and you've made the right choice.

When you need CC, SK has FD "/g sorry you died mate
When you need CC, Pally has Root "/g sorry noone died mate

[Deckk]

Is the halfy the only paladin that can get Nature's Defender?

[Kope]

Is the halfy the only paladin that can get Nature's Defender?

Tunare Paladins.

[Beinen]

So... i'm definitely down with the pally, i'm leaning on Human/Erudite - but idk what natures defender is or the rest of the velious drops?

[theaetatus]

Right and wrong. Eventually, come Velious, Knights will be moved to the same tables as Warriors, which will make them far and away better tanks vs most mobs due to snap aggro ability. Warriors will always be the definitive tanks when it comes to raid mobs due to certain disciplines.

Aside from raid mobs, Knights will be more effective tanks as a whole.

Mobs hit pretty hard in Velious, even the single group content. You're still better off with a warrior in most circumstances... Disciplines also work out of raids. ;)

[Swish]

Is the halfy the only paladin that can get Nature's Defender?

high elves too, just those two races though

[Beinen]

Mobs hit pretty hard in Velious, even the single group content. You're still better off with a warrior in most circumstances... Disciplines also work out of raids. ;)

yeah but I don't want to play a warrior.

[Deckk]

yeah but I don't want to play a warrior.

Warriors are awesome... But they have one role: tank. They don't have the utility that the SK and Paladin have. All three tank classes have their place and no shame in rolling with any of them :)

[Kope]

Warriors are awesome... But they have one role: tank. They don't have the utility that the SK and Paladin have. All three tank classes have their place and no shame in rolling with any of them :)

Actually I'd say warriors have 2 roles - Tank and DPS. A lot of people don't think of warriors as dps but they can really put out some nice numbers when geared well.

[Samoht]

Actually I'd say warriors have 2 roles - Tank and DPS. A lot of people don't think of warriors as dps but they can really put out some nice numbers when geared well.

No.

[wormed]

Isn't the Paladin Epic quite easy?

Overall, yes. There's a few bottlenecks, but it's not difficult.

[Widan]

No.

Warriors do the third best melee dps, behind rogues and monks.

[Danth]

The Paladin epic is readily doable in part because there aren't many Paladins, so there's little competition for the Book of Scale. It's uncommon to see a level 60 Paladin who lacks his epic. This devalues Nature's Defender somewhat.

Danth

[Pyrocat]

Warriors do the third best melee dps, behind rogues and monks.

Necros do the third best CC, but you don't see them responding to /ooc Kedge group needs CC.

[Champion_Standing]

Paladin or SK? Hmmm


Monk

[Widan]

Necros do the third best CC, but you don't see them responding to /ooc Kedge group needs CC.

Warrior dps is barely behind monks until monks get triple attack in Velious, and that's only because of weapon availability. I'm not sure why having a warrior dps is considered bad? People group rangers, mages, necros and wizards in a dps slot and they are all worse dps than warriors.

[Kope]

Warrior dps is barely behind monks until monks get triple attack in Velious, and that's only because of weapon availability. I'm not sure why having a warrior dps is considered bad? People group rangers, mages, necros and wizards in a dps slot and they are all worse dps than warriors.

This is kinda the idea I was attempting to convey. Lots of people don't even consider warriors for a dps slot, but when you actually look at overall dps, they do damn well.

[Beinen]

Paladin or SK? Hmmm


Monk

I already play monk, I was thinking if I start a second character!

[iruinedyourday]

human whatever the choice.. i would prefer a paladin than sk to hang out with for pve

[Wfrench1234]

Warriors do fine dps. That's why this server is stupid top end you need rogue and monk dps to just melt mobs or you're doing it wrong. Plenty of sub optimal group set ups work and GASP some great people play those sub optimal classes. Wouldn't it be more fun grouping with good people than slaying mob after mob in silence

[kaev]

Warriors do fine dps. That's why this server is stupid top end you need rogue and monk dps to just melt mobs or you're doing it wrong. Plenty of sub optimal group set ups work and GASP some great people play those sub optimal classes. Wouldn't it be more fun grouping with good people than slaying mob after mob in silence

Nah, everybody should solo an enchanter or a bard, with a few scattered wizard and cleric alts for ports and rezzes respectively. Why else would you be playing on an emulator of a long-deprecated version of a 16-yo elfsim? :cool:

[Feanoir]

Paladins are also the most active of the three tanks, at least in my opinion. If you aren't pulling you watch out for adds and root them as they come in. After the fight you spam click your hat for a few mana free heals each round. During the fights you have to be aware of any adds to root while keeping aggo, and everyone appreciates if you manage to cure any poison/disease dots without asking if any casts get through. In my opinion its probably the most exhausting of the tank classes in a fast paced group, but also adds quite a lot to what the group can handle.

[Raev]

Warrior dps is barely behind monks until monks get triple attack in Velious, and that's only because of weapon availability. I'm not sure why having a warrior dps is considered bad? People group rangers, mages, necros and wizards in a dps slot and they are all worse dps than warriors.

Whoa, no one groups with Rangers or Wizards. As for Necros/Mages? I think they will beat out warriors without too much trouble. When NPCs got their big upgrade for DA/DW/cooldown pets got a lot stronger. I parsed my L49 necro skeleton on red at 40-45 dps vs CoM trash mobs; I bet a L60 mage with a water pet (55), damage shield (10), and nukes (20) could come very close to outparsing an epic rogue now. Depending on the length of the fights and what kind of CC is going on, a necro will either be a bit worse or a bit better.

I definitely agree though that Warriors do hugely underrated damage. Knights are handicapped by the terrible 2HB damage bonus; once that gets bumped up it in late Velious it will be a lot closer.

[Swish]

I'd take a good ranger over a slacking "don't want to pull" monk anyday. You know those monks, the ones in KC who can't be bothered to get their seb key sorted and alt tab a lot.

Rangers are great pullers, good dps (especially on an older server like this one with plenty of twinking going on) and they know its a good idea to put some work in because if they are as slack as some of the lazier monks they're doomed for future group opportunities... I'd argue.

[theaetatus]

Warrior dps is barely behind monks until monks get triple attack in Velious, and that's only because of weapon availability. I'm not sure why having a warrior dps is considered bad? People group rangers, mages, necros and wizards in a dps slot and they are all worse dps than warriors.

I think you may be underestimating warrior dps even... With dps weapons they're #2 behind rogues thanks to triple attack, zerking and vastly superior disciplines.

[Widan]

I think you may be underestimating warrior dps even... With dps weapons they're #2 behind rogues thanks to triple attack, zerking and vastly superior disciplines.

Yea on raid mobs they are #2 for sure, I was thinking more along the lines of just a steady 6 man exp group chain killing blues or whatever

[Tenlaar]

Paladins are also the most active of the three tanks, at least in my opinion.

There are four plate tanks for group content, and if you think a paladin is active you should try doing it with a bard!

[Deckk]

Honestly, I like monk more than any of the classes being spoken about (SK, Paly, Warrior). No, monks aren't tanks (they can tank low level stuff, sure...) but they are a very playable and fun class. The problem with monks, in my opinion, is how freakin' many of them there are. There's tons.

The fun part about rolling a paly/sk is the group tank viability and the rarity piece... Roll anything non-big for an SK and you're going to be an uncommon class (aside from DE). For paladin, roll anything really... Dwarves are a bit more prevalent.

That's fun to me.

But I'm not really a min/maxer, either.

It's why I've thought and rethought additional characters about 300 times. I really wanted to go monk, but man, the thought of being one of 5000 just isn't fun.

Warriors aren't all that common, either. They're more popular than SKs or Paladins, but outside of ogre there's not a ton of them running around.

[Beinen]

Honestly, I like monk more than any of the classes being spoken about (SK, Paly, Warrior). No, monks aren't tanks (they can tank low level stuff, sure...) but they are a very playable and fun class. The problem with monks, in my opinion, is how freakin' many of them there are. There's tons.

The fun part about rolling a paly/sk is the group tank viability and the rarity piece... Roll anything non-big for an SK and you're going to be an uncommon class (aside from DE). For paladin, roll anything really... Dwarves are a bit more prevalent.

That's fun to me.

But I'm not really a min/maxer, either.

It's why I've thought and rethought additional characters about 300 times. I really wanted to go monk, but man, the thought of being one of 5000 just isn't fun.

Warriors aren't all that common, either. They're more popular than SKs or Paladins, but outside of ogre there's not a ton of them running around.

Right - but I played monk from pre-kunark, and been dying to get back into eq(see my post in guild discussion) I may not make this paladin for some thing but I thought if I were to do something different I was going to do a hybrid. I know there are many monks but I'll be one of the few that is very active and may I even say "professional" with my pulls and other duties of my class. - to comment on your monk ideas

[Sage Truthbearer]

I know there are many monks but I'll be one of the few that is very active and may I even say "professional" with my pulls and other duties of my class.

My advice is to not worry about how rare your class is — the only thing that matters is if you find the class fun. Just look up how many Paladins or Rangers exist in the 60 bracket. Very few of them stick it out for the long haul, and part of the reason is because they put rarity over enjoyment.

[Beinen]

My advice is to not worry about how rare your class is — the only thing that matters is if you find the class fun. Just look up how many Paladins or Rangers exist in the 60 bracket. Very few of them stick it out for the long haul, and part of the reason is because they put rarity over enjoyment.

Exactly why I play monk. I just thought that there may be times getting a group may be difficult or that there may be a need that I could fulfil from time to time. Was looking for input as far as that goes

[Deckk]

My advice is to not worry about how rare your class is — the only thing that matters is if you find the class fun. Just look up how many Paladins or Rangers exist in the 60 bracket. Very few of them stick it out for the long haul, and part of the reason is because they put rarity over enjoyment.

Wait. What?

Some people enjoy rare. Some enjoy min max. Some enjoy fashion. The end of the day your last line is on point. Play what will make you enjoy your time.

[burkemi5]

IMO paladin is the worst class, I'd made a ranger before I made a paladin. Make anything but a pally.

[Clark]

It's annoying, true, but you just learn to stun before FoL.