Hybrid XP penalty removal date?

[Hijiri]

Can a staff member give us a ballpark date when the hybrid xp pen will be removed, Podcast they stated that not all the 'patch timelines' would be followed, Im sure a lot of people are holding off on making a hybrid till its gone. Kinda disappointed it wasn't removed at release.

[Thulghor]

Estimated to be a little over a month if the original patch timeline for Velious is followed.

[TarukShmaruk]

Hope they release it a lil earlier than that. Such a huge QOL thing for everyone.

(people grouping with hybrids as well as the classes themselves)

[Bboboo]

tomorrow

[winter888]

I m also afraid of the way how they removed the penalty.

Just shrink their current exp amount ,keep exp match the lvl after patch?

Or dont adjust the exp that they already gained, and only tune the exp they need to gain for the rest levels to 60ish?

According to the group exp distribution. if the way they do is the 1st one, then Hybrid is still a Hybrid, meaning a bloody exp drinker. nonthing changed a lot ,if you already have a 50lvl+ hybrid before Veilous .

Hope im WRONG.

[Swish]

Word of advice: the day/patch that it gets lifted, you'll be 1 of dozens/hundreds of people who waited to level their hybrid.

If you're playing a SK or paladin you'll be trying to fill maybe 1 of 3-5 slots in most zones, those aren't good odds with the amount of others also likely to be doing the same.

Bards/rangers - does a group need 2?


If you want to level a hybrid, I'd enjoy doing it sooner rather than later :p

[Ravager]

They should go the other way with it and penalize everybody.

[Swish]

They should go the other way with it and penalize everybody.

The line for Chardok AOE isn't long enough, right? My SK is 57 at the moment, so slow to move even in an efficient group...any slower and the bar would be moving backwards :/

[Ravager]

It just means more Everquest. You know you were gonna play it anyway.

[Swish]

yeeahhh :(

[Rararboker]

I m also afraid of the way how they removed the penalty.

Just shrink their current exp amount ,keep exp match the lvl after patch?

Or dont adjust the exp that they already gained, and only tune the exp they need to gain for the rest levels to 60ish?

According to the group exp distribution. if the way they do is the 1st one, then Hybrid is still a Hybrid, meaning a bloody exp drinker. nonthing changed a lot ,if you already have a 50lvl+ hybrid before Veilous .

Hope im WRONG.


They add a bonus to counterbalance the penalty.

[winter888]

They add a bonus to counterbalance the penalty.


a bonus to whom? to groupmates except the hybrid? Could you explain the mechanism or link the resource of this?

[Jimjam]

I think xp was made to split evenly between the group, but hybrids got a bonus applied to their share of xp that counterbalanced the fact that they needed more xp to complete each level.

Wasn't there some implications for hybrid death penalties though?

[winter888]

I think xp was made to split evenly between the group, but hybrids got a bonus applied to their share of xp that counterbalanced the fact that they needed more xp to complete each level.

Wasn't there some implications for hybrid death penalties though?

this is barely be true , i think. there's level difference and race differrence, so the group exp cant be splited evenly. Or it will be unfair to those high lvl chars.

And current exp distrbution system works according to all the summary of race/class/level exp mod things. If you remove class mod(for hybrid), you have to rebalance race and level part or some other way maybe. I m just curious how the CLASSIC eq did this.

[Jimjam]

sorry, I meant split even assuming same lvl and race.

The way I understand it currently works isn't that classes receive penalty to the xp they earn, instead they are penalised in how much xp they need to level. So a monk requires more xp to reach the same level as warrior. In groups eq then just tries to split xp so all members level at the same rate.

I'm suggesting after the fix a full group gets 60xp from a mob, each member is assigned 10xp. After this xp is split the monk will get a bonus of 4xp to his xp to make up for his class penalty. Again assuming same race and level.

Is that the future implementation?

[winter888]

yes, for same lvl and same race that's true.

Guess this will a key point, Hybrid maybe more easier to lvl up,but more harder to getin group. if the modifaction is going wrong way.

[Rararboker]

There is a post somewhere around here that explains how it will work.

[am0n]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

The short of it is that originally, the AMOUNT of experience you HAD determined how much you TOOK. Since a Hybrid needed more to level, an equal level Hybrid HAD more than someone else and hence they TOOK more.

The bandaid patch for removing this was to create free experience when a you killed a creature equal to the Hybrid penalty. They also changed how experience split was calculated to be based on level instead of total experience obtained. This essentially eliminated the Hybrid penalty while at the same time preventing people from suddenly jumping in levels (which is what would have happened if they changed the exp table).

This is why I am a huge advocate for just eliminating the penalty from the start of they create a Re99 server. While it may not be "classic," it would have pretty much no impact on the feel of the classic server while eliminating the need to do goofy gimmicks several expansions later to ultimately remove it anyway.

[Swish]

If there's no hybrid penalty on that new server can we have run speed AAs and LDoN added? They were all in classic zones so it wouldn't take patching expansions.

Thanks... oh and beastlords were fun werent they? We can do it without cats this time? Thanks.

(I think its either classic or a pandora's box of stuff that only a minority want to see)

[maskedmelon]

Currently XP earned by a character for a kill is equal to the percent of their total earned XP relative to the combined total earned XP of all group members. Since hybrids require 40% more XP to level, they receive a larger chunk of the cut, hence the oft misunderstood concept of "shared" penalties. Keep in mind that other classes (all except war, rog and priests) have some sort of penalty and there are racial penalties as well, which are currently "shared" in the same way.

Following the "hybrid" patch, XP distribution revised to calculate based off of character level only. Additional XP is created out of nowhere to offset class penalties (except rot/war which retain their lower requirements) and racial penalties are left in place. Due to the revised distribution calculation though, racial penalties are no longer shared following the patch, so if you play a human and duo with your friend who plays an iksar, you'll pull ahead of her.

[am0n]

If there's no hybrid penalty on that new server can we have run speed AAs and LDoN added? They were all in classic zones so it wouldn't take patching expansions.

Thanks... oh and beastlords were fun werent they? We can do it without cats this time? Thanks.

(I think its either classic or a pandora's box of stuff that only a minority want to see)

Except that what you just sarcastically responded with are real and noticeable differences to the game. The experience penalty is something that very few people knew of prior to SoE coming out and talking about it, and even less understood (and still understand). If the experience penalty was removed from the start it would have no noticeable impact on the feel of the classic game, other than some people up in arms because something (that has no impact on them) is different.

[Swish]

Simply it wouldn't be classic though. Can you pretend to not be aware of the penalty?

[Gilder]

Can you pretend to not be aware of the penalty?

I tried pretending I didn't notice it on my Troll/SK.... didn't work!

[TarukShmaruk]

If there's no hybrid penalty on that new server can we have run speed AAs and LDoN added? They were all in classic zones so it wouldn't take patching expansions.

Thanks... oh and beastlords were fun werent they? We can do it without cats this time? Thanks.

(I think its either classic or a pandora's box of stuff that only a minority want to see)

There's already lots of non-classic stuff. PVP server has this whacked out resist system

Getting QoL changes early wouldn't do anything but improve the game.

[Swish]

I tried pretending I didn't notice it on my Troll/SK.... didn't work!

My SK is 57 (dark elf)... hard to imagine it being any slower :/

[LulzSect]

I tried pretending I didn't notice it on my Troll/SK.... didn't work!

[drktmplr12]

If the experience penalty was removed from the start it would have no noticeable impact on the feel of the classic game, other than some people up in arms because something (that has no impact on them) is different.


forgive me if this comes off as rude, i just don't understand the reasoning.

a programming team already thought this out and implemented it on a live server ~15 years ago. are you suggesting the devs fix it one way for blue and then change the fix on re99, even though it has no noticeable impact?

why would someone be motivated to do such a thing? i'm honestly curious.

[Danth]

If you don't like a hybrid with the penalties, odds are you won't like a hybrid without them. Hybrids aren't for everyone. The penalty stinks so much because it makes things drag out when you're not particularly having fun in the first place. Case in point: You don't see many folks complaining about the Iksar Monk experience penalty, although its combined 44% penalty is greater than the stock 40% penalty assigned to a hybrid.

Danth

[TarukShmaruk]

If you don't like a hybrid with the penalties, odds are you won't like a hybrid without them. Hybrids aren't for everyone. The penalty stinks so much because it makes things drag out when you're not particularly having fun in the first place. Case in point: You don't see many folks complaining about the Iksar Monk experience penalty, although its combined 44% penalty is greater than the stock 40% penalty assigned to a hybrid.

Danth

That's probably because 1) monk is insanely good class 2) iksar regen is absolutely nuts

A half elf ranger or paladin has a 40% penalty for no real reason. There is nothing amazing about the class that warrants the penalty. Rangers actually suck in a lot of ways and are never going to get much better on this server because they don't really get their due until Luclin AAs.

Super early EQ warriors and rogues both sucked and hybrids were basically warriors but way better so the devs put that penalty in + because of D&D influences.

[kaev]

Super early EQ warriors and rogues both sucked and hybrids were basically warriors but way better so the devs put that penalty in + because of D&D influences.

They never really fixed warrior afaik. Shitty one-trick pony class design. All EQ tank classes are a pita to play between the below room temperatue IQ douchenozzles howling about "OMGXPPENALTYNOHYBRIDSINGROUPKTHXBYE" and the numbwits who can't cope with using the available tools for agro control.

It ain't playing the Warrior, Paladin, or Shadowknight that sucks, regardless of agro issues and XP penalty stupidity in the game mechanics. It's playing a group-dependent class when the pool of potential groupmates is way overstocked with morans clinging desperately to unimportant shit that has nothing to do with having a good time in-game.

[winter888]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

The short of it is that originally, the AMOUNT of experience you HAD determined how much you TOOK. Since a Hybrid needed more to level, an equal level Hybrid HAD more than someone else and hence they TOOK more.

The bandaid patch for removing this was to create free experience when a you killed a creature equal to the Hybrid penalty. They also changed how experience split was calculated to be based on level instead of total experience obtained. This essentially eliminated the Hybrid penalty while at the same time preventing people from suddenly jumping in levels (which is what would have happened if they changed the exp table).

This is why I am a huge advocate for just eliminating the penalty from the start of they create a Re99 server. While it may not be "classic," it would have pretty much no impact on the feel of the classic server while eliminating the need to do goofy gimmicks several expansions later to ultimately remove it anyway.


This means that we must address the penalty differently: basically, for every kill, after all grouping bonuses and zone bonuses are applied, the experience will be split up according to level, rather than experience. For those classes that do not have a penalty, they will then be given that share. Those classes that have a penalty will get their share, multiplied by their experience penalty. Essentially we are creating extra experience to give to those with a penalty after everyone else has gotten their share.

Since penalties are always a value over "1", this results in the creation of additional experience. And, since shares are determined by level rather than total experience as before, a character will get just as much experience for a kill based upon the size and level of the group, regardless of the class makeup. Finally, everyone in the group gains experience at a faster rate because we're creating the additional experience for those with penalties out of thin air, rather than taking it from other members of the group. That means that after implementation, those without penalties will get more experience for every kill than they would have if they ever grouped with a class with a penalty.

Now you'll notice that we are dividing up experience based upon the LEVEL makeup of the group. For instance, if a level 20 and a level 21 group together, the level 21 will get more experience per kill. That is however only fair since the level 21 does actually contribute more value to the group.

Summary

The changes that we are making in the next patch should have a profound impact upon the game:


Classes no longer have a true class-based experience penalty, making it easier for people to play the class that they want to play, rather than the class that they feel compelled to play due to faster advancement.

Race based penalties are no longer shared with the group, and in truth are not severe enough to greatly impact the advancement speed of any particular race. Even the race with the worst penalty will level no slower than a human monk does now, and in truth will level faster due to the other changes that went in.

The grouping bonus increase, in addition to the other changes, makes grouping much more efficient, without reducing the current efficiency of soloing for those who prefer that route.

Experience modifiers turned up in the other zones should encourage people to spread out, have more fun, and allow those staying behind in other areas to have more fun themselves since the area is less crowded.

All players, assuming that they have an experience penalty, or ever group with anyone who does, will level faster.

Something good to know, hope this change can be implemented soon.

[Hijiri]

If you don't like a hybrid with the penalties, odds are you won't like a hybrid without them. Hybrids aren't for everyone. The penalty stinks so much because it makes things drag out when you're not particularly having fun in the first place. Case in point: You don't see many folks complaining about the Iksar Monk experience penalty, although its combined 44% penalty is greater than the stock 40% penalty assigned to a hybrid.

Danth

One of the dumbest things I've read on this forum in awhile, thanks! Out of the the SK race choices, two are a push (1.4 vs 1.44) and the other 2 are very high compared to iksar monk ( 1.66,1.68 vs 1.4)

I'm sure a lot of players who had hybrids on live from the start like myself had no desire to go down that road again because it kills the hybrid classes.

[Zuranthium]

Even more important than the removal of exp penalty is the increase in stats that hybrids received in Velious. Are those in the game yet?

[Swish]

One of the dumbest things I've read on this forum in awhile, thanks! Out of the the SK race choices, two are a push (1.4 vs 1.44) and the other 2 are very high compared to iksar monk ( 1.66,1.68 vs 1.4)

I'm sure a lot of players who had hybrids on live from the start like myself had no desire to go down that road again because it kills the hybrid classes.

You won't get a group when they penalties are removed - there'll be too many lazy people jumping on the bandwagon.

[Troxx]

Getting groups certainly will be easier.

[captnamazing]

I think this will be a good thing. I like hybrid tanks :)

[Troxx]

In my opinion the biggest problem with the penalty isn't the extra time it takes to level, it's the impact it has on group behavior. In 1999-2000 the penalty was not known and/or understood. The penalty was there, but in not knowing about it, the community didn't discriminate nearly as much. You saw a similar phenomenon before parsing as well. Before the hardcore number crunching and parsing, Wizards were presumed to be good all around dps (vs now where it is known that outside of burst they have terrible sustained dps in a fast group).

Once the penalty is lifted, getting group invites won't be as much of a hassle for hybrids.

4 rangers a shaman and a cleric? Sure why not!
3 rangers a bard, a shaman, and a paladin? Sure why not?!
2 knights in the same group? Dps might suffer but you're not eating double xp penalty.

[Zeonick]

Did they remove the exp penalty in velious for a specific reason? Or did they finally just realize it was having a severe effect on the classes people would play?

If it was a velious-specific thing, then continue to remove it in a month. If not, it should have been removed years ago. It's a mechanic that is simply bad for the game, and limits class diversity to the point of being completely boring.

[fadetree]

It was not a velious specific thing, it was just finally recognized as generally bad, but this server does not care about what's bad or good, it cares about authenticity. Thus, I expect the penalty to be lifted in accordance with the timeline.

[Zeonick]

It was not a velious specific thing, it was just finally recognized as generally bad, but this server does not care about what's bad or good, it cares about authenticity. Thus, I expect the penalty to be lifted in accordance with the timeline.

I understand what their thought process is on that, but it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. We were in kunark for how long? The timeline isn't authentic. It's strange picking and chosing what to be authentic about when other aspects of the server are clearly not authentic. And in the end im ok with any decision the server staff wants to make, its their server, but it just seems odd to me to try and stick to certain mechanics that are "classic" yet damaging to gameplay when other aspects of the server are clearly not classic at all.

[drktmplr12]

I understand what their thought process is on that, but it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. We were in kunark for how long? The timeline isn't authentic. It's strange picking and chosing what to be authentic about when other aspects of the server are clearly not authentic. And in the end im ok with any decision the server staff wants to make, its their server, but it just seems odd to me to try and stick to certain mechanics that are "classic" yet damaging to gameplay when other aspects of the server are clearly not classic at all.

timeline isnt authentic.

wipe it

[Zeonick]

timeline isnt authentic.

wipe it

Burn this mother effer down! Nah, thats not what im saying. Just that im confused as to why they drag out game-damaging features to keep a classic timeline that isn't classic at all. It took soe 2(?) years to remove the exp penalty, so why didnt they remove it after 2 years here?

[Lagaidh]

It'll be nice having this lifted for my last few levels =)

[Rararboker]

Speaking of wizards, I'm glad mine is finally good sustained dps. Celebrate!

[fadetree]

I understand what their thought process is on that, but it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. We were in kunark for how long? The timeline isn't authentic. It's strange picking and chosing what to be authentic about when other aspects of the server are clearly not authentic. And in the end im ok with any decision the server staff wants to make, its their server, but it just seems odd to me to try and stick to certain mechanics that are "classic" yet damaging to gameplay when other aspects of the server are clearly not classic at all.

Yes, I know. It is what it is, though.

[Fryhole]

Yes, I know. It is what it is, though.

Indeed. If it was my server (famous last words?), I would consider leaving the penalty in 1-50, and removing in Kunark.
*shrug*

It definitely doesn't help grouping, and with all the angst against boxing/plvling, it doesn't seem logical to leave it in. That said, I have no idea how complicated it is to remove, so. :)

[milsorgen]

If there's no hybrid penalty on that new server can we have run speed AAs and LDoN added? They were all in classic zones so it wouldn't take patching expansions.

Thanks... oh and beastlords were fun werent they? We can do it without cats this time? Thanks.

(I think its either classic or a pandora's box of stuff that only a minority want to see)

I really liked how LDoN was integrated into existing zones. Get rid of the instancing and baby you got a expansion going.

[Zuranthium]

Even more important than the removal of exp penalty is the increase in stats that hybrids received in Velious. Are those in the game yet?

WTB info.

[dbouya]

what the heck is this new server people in this thread keep referring to?

I'm not aware of any plans to make a new server?

[Fryhole]

what the heck is this new server people in this thread keep referring to?

I'm not aware of any plans to make a new server?

There was talk that a 'recycle' blue server was going to launch sometime after Velious. Apparently, it would merge back into the original P99 blue server after some point. *shrug*

[Swish]

what the heck is this new server people in this thread keep referring to?

I'm not aware of any plans to make a new server?

Must be talking about pvp teams. It was being developed alongside Velious originally but they put it on the shelf to work on Velious exclusively.

[DeadlyReza]

Must be talking about Recycle 99 (Green99). It was being developed alongside Velious originally and should be out within a year.

[dbouya]

thanks guys, that clues me in, I'll keep an eye out!

[Swish]

.

Not even close to what I typed lol