Lowbie warrior can't hold aggro?

[Veranish]

Hey guys, I'm in a trio and trying to figure out how I can help outfit our warrior.
Our trio is a cleric, rogue, and warrior, and the rogue very much holds aggro almost
the entire time. Warrior spams taunt (When the aggro is not pointed at him, which is always), and gets about 44 damage in crits occasionally, (level 14).

The rogue has a small dragonbone shard, doing 22dmg pretty consistently on normal hits. Does 88 on backstab.
The warrior has a jade broadsword? The crescent can-opener thing, occasionally doing the cap of 22, but mostly staying between 12-18.

I'm trying to figure out how to help the tank hold aggro, I figure he needs to do more consistent damage, what would be the best weapon for me to get him? My total budget is around 1k. Should he use 2H or 1H? Should he dual wield now that he's able?

Or does the rogue just need to calm down, and not stab things for a good 30 seconds after the mob arrives? Cause at this point I'm ready to just make the warrior hand over all the AC rings and such I got him to the rogue, cause it sure isn't helping him and my mana is going to waste.

[Qtip]

Warrior is garbage at holding aggro without clickys. Your best bet is get 2 weapons with procs. You should have rolled sk/pally which both have lom insta aggro spells.

[kaev]

agro/hate from melee does not rely on how much damage you actually do, nor even whether you hit the mob. Melee agro is on a per swing basis and the amount is fixed based on the weapon damage and the attacker's level-based damage bonus (damage bonu does not apply until L28 and above). Melee threat for 1h weapons is [2x base damage + level bonus] per swing, a miss is as much hate as a max damage crit.

Backstab is a big chunk of agro, that's part of your issue.

The rogue needs to use his evade ability to reduce his agro, evade is accomplished by stopping auto-attack & using Hide, so 3 key taps (third is to resume auto-attack.) A successful evade will reduce the rogue's agro from that mob by a small but significant amount.

So if your rogue is using backstab at every opportunity and not using his evade ability, and the rogue and warrior are using weapons with very similar melee hate generation, yeah the rogue is gonna take agro with his first backstab and rarely lose it.

Taunt fails a lot at low level, hell it fails a lot a high level, better to say taunt fails most of the time at low level. Don't expect great things from Taunt, it's important but it fails a lot.

If you root an NPC it will attack the nearest target on its hate list, so if the warrior is on top of a rooted mob and the rogue is at max melee range the warrior will be tanking. Root only works well against mobs several levels lower than the caster as the chance of a resist or an early break is heavily affected by relative level. Root can break early on each server tick (every 6 seconds), and also when a rooted mob is hit by spell direct damage (as from your Furor spell) it gets an extra chance to break the root with a bonus to do so.

hth

[eisley]

get a staff of battle

i can give you 1k to buy one if you need

[SlankyLanky]

i dont know what level you guys are or how much plat you have but grabbing the warrior a pair of http://wiki.project1999.com/Obsidian_Shard would help his aggro alot. they go for about 50pp per.

[Swish]

If there's aggro troubles its probably worth the cleric's time to cast a L5 root, then just make sure you're hugging the mob and the rogue is stood back.

Also worth mentioning to the rogue is he needs to evade!

[Veranish]

Thanks folks, that helps a lot. Rogue IS using evade when he can, sounds like we're doing that right (gives him the message you try to duck from battle and such).

His per swing damage threat is a lot higher than the tanks yeah, with that calculation. Pretty much the moment he starts swinging he gets aggro. I'll look into that staff of battle.

Thanks for the offer Eisley! I do have 1k to spare for my warrior pal. The staff is just so boring haha, I was hoping there might be something else to buy instead that would have similar threat generation.

[maskedmelon]

Root ^^ SoB is probably best upgrade. Could so pick up a pair of skorpicus claw I lakers on the cheap, but those no proc until 30 or so I think.

[webrunner5]

Invite a Ranger for CC. :p

[Naethyn]

I would get a Jarsath Trident (50p) for his primary and use the Green Jade Broadsword in offhand. Make sure the warrior is standing in front of the mob when he taunts, is only taunting when he doesn't have aggro, and is as close a possible to the mob for the entire fight. I also only kick immediately after a taunt. A great deal of aggro responsibility is on the rogue by making an evade hotkey (attack off + hide + attack on) When the warrior doesn't have aggro he should drink 2-3 booze until he does. Cleric roots obviously help a ton.

My last bit of advice is to consider adding a pet class to the group, especially a charm pet. Pets generate massive aggro and do not tank if a PC is in range. Warrior's taunt is helped greatly by taunting that aggro from the pet.

[Naethyn]

Oh and make sure the warrior is working on his archery. Archery is huge for initial aggro.

[Jimjam]

Make sure the cleric does something to get a small amount of aggro on each mob.

I've read doing so will allow the rogue to drop to a lower level of aggro with evade (instead of just dropping a small amount below the warrior)...

I dunno if it's really true or not!

Note aggro from swings is based more on what damage you could have caused, not the damage you actually cause. In other words a miss does as much hate as a max damage crippling blow!

[captnamazing]

Oh and make sure the warrior is working on his archery. Archery is huge for initial aggro.

this is so true. i see a lot of warriors never using archery. but we have really good range, and you can pack a punch with a couple of shots, giving your dps a breath of safety before you get a proc.

[Veranish]

What would be a good bow to get? I probably only have 300 to spare after his weapons.

[Naethyn]

Spectral bow rots often in traks and has dex. I do fleching and made my own bows before then. Runed oak bow is droppable from south karana, but I didn't see it for sale before I got my spectral.

[ctre]

1 question for the rog.

Does the rog use max melee distance when attacking?
If not. try that, ( I expect you will get a much better over-all result).

:)

[Videri]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that spamming Taunt is not the best use of it. What Taunt actually does (when it works) is put you 1 aggro point above the highest person on the aggro list. So, if the mob is attacking the warrior, there is no need to taunt and it is best to save it. Then, when the rogue gets aggro and fails evade, the warrior can hit taunt and hope it works.

Plus, to put it on easy mode, if the cleric merely roots the mob, and the warrior gets close to it, the mob will always attack the warrior (unless the rogue gets even closer). So, the melees should get used to watching for the green blob spell particles of Root, and when you see the message that the mob is rooted, the warrior should get close and the rogue should back up a bit.

[Naethyn]

Warrior spams taunt (When the aggro is not pointed at him, which is always)

[captnamazing]

If you're daring, go get a spectral bow from TT. If you want a hand, I can make you a decent bow.

[Rararboker]

i dont know what level you guys are or how much plat you have but grabbing the warrior a pair of http://wiki.project1999.com/Obsidian_Shard would help his aggro alot. they go for about 50pp per.

Best advice so far. These proc at low lvl and can be all the difference. Get +dex items when you can to increase efficiency.

[Naethyn]

I found obsidian shards to be terrible at low levels due to mobs hp being so low and hardly getting a proc per every other kill at best. I wouldn't consider proc weapons until yaks at 37.

[Legday]

The root suggestion is dead on. As long as the Cleric roots and the rogue and warrior are doing their part in terms of keeping the right distance, it will never touch the rogue.

An alternative that hasn't been mentioned (I don't think), is to let the warrior beat on the mob for 5 seconds or so before the rogue jumps in. The warrior builds hate and the rogue will have a harder time catching up especially since the fights are short at low levels.

Still, Cleric roots and everybody does their job = warrior gets 100% of the agro.

[Rararboker]

I found obsidian shards to be terrible at low levels due to mobs hp being so low and hardly getting a proc per every other kill at best. I wouldn't consider proc weapons until yaks at 37.

Sounds like a low dex problem more than anything. Easy fix, dex items are cheap.

[kaev]

Sounds like a low dex problem more than anything. Easy fix, dex items are cheap.

100 dex will be ~ 1.5 procs/min, 200 dex will be ~ 3 procs/min, both assume dual wield (1/min & 2/min if primary only). At ~ 1.5 procs/min average you are proc'ing less than once per mob on average vs. these poor overmatched low level mobs being crushed by groups with 10/25 and better weapons. Show me the lowbie sporting a 200dex and he won't be the subject of this thread.

My warrior wasn't seeing groups where proc'ing weapons were regularly useful until he was in his mid 40s. Before that going for best damage (Staff of Battle) and rooting liberally was always more effective, even in low-50s best damage + rootmania can be most effective and reliable depending on group makeup. If procs are the answer to lowbie agro control your group is doing something terribly wrong in the way of damage output.

tl;dr
proc's are overrated and smart play is underrated for agro control

[Raev]

I don't think any of the posters here quite realize the mathematical pit you have fallen into. A quick review: every time you swing at mobs, you generate hate. Since there is no damage bonus, your threat per second is purely dependent on your weapon ratios. In this case, the Dragonbone Shard has a ratio of 0.5 (13/26) while the Green Jade Broadsword has a ratio of .44 (11/25). This means that the rogue is generating more threat per second.

So, your warrior goes to taunt. But even if it works, he only moves to the rogue's level of threat + 1. So after 1-2 more seconds of swinging, the rogue is on top again. The only way out is a successful evade, and presumably that isn't happening much as the Rogue's hide skill will be low at L14. All of this is true even without backstabbing which of course only makes things worse.

The long term solution is to level up, which will increase the Rogue's evade chance and give the warrior access to some proccing weapons that don't suck (Frostbringer, Sarnak Warhammer, etc). At high levels Warriors don't have trouble holding threat vs Rogues; its the casters that are trouble.

In the short term, try buying a Fist of Zek and Jagged Long Sword (both 16/30, .53 ratio). As long as the Warrior's weapons have a 0.01% better ratio than the Rogue's, you should be good until L28 when the damage bonus kicks in. And my evil twin Kaev's point about rooting is spot on.

Also, are all your toons dwarves? If so, that's just :cool:

[Naethyn]

Weapon ratio is the deciding factor for aggro before level 37 (yaks) but, aggro is not purely based on weapon ratio. Higher damage hits will also generate more aggro. Damage for a hit is based on your Attack Rating (STR) vs the AC (level differences) of the defender. Higher Attack Rating will lead to higher damage on average and as a result more aggro. When I posted drink booze earlier it was not without reason. Higher levels will also decrease the AC of the target. Distance from the mob also plays a factor. Being closer to the mob will result in being the mob's target more often.

[kaev]

Weapon ratio is the deciding factor for aggro before level 37 (yaks) but, aggro is not purely based on weapon ratio. [FALSE:]]Higher damage hits will also generate more aggro. Damage for a hit is based on your Attack Rating (STR) vs the AC (level differences) of the defender. Higher Attack Rating will lead to higher damage on average and as a result more aggro.[Preceding claims are not true] When I posted drink booze earlier it was not without reason. Higher levels will also decrease the AC of the target. Distance from the mob also plays a factor. Being closer to the mob will result in being the mob's target more often.

NO, melee threat is strictly based on potential damage, not actual damage. I gave threat formula earlier in thread, to repeat:
((weapon base damage) * 2) + (level based damage bonus) = (melee threat per swing).

[Jimjam]

Sounds like a low dex problem more than anything. Easy fix, dex items are cheap.

It's not a dex problem. Even with over 160 dex Obsidian Shards won't be good most of the time. I've tried it. Yes, if you get a proc or two you can hold aggro against a ragebringer, but most fights at 14-30 aren't long enough to even get one proc.

Honestly, most classes tank well enough for the teens, even low twenties, it might be worth switching strategy to having the rogue tank and have him evade BEFORE back stab instead of after, at least you are likely to get in more back stabs that way. Have the warrior berserk DPS?

[Naethyn]

NO, melee threat is strictly based on potential damage, not actual damage. I gave threat formula earlier in thread, to repeat:
((weapon base damage) * 2) + (level based damage bonus) = (melee threat per swing).

A miss does not generate as much aggro as a hit. Attack Rating increases your hit chance as well as average damage. Higher STR increases your Attack Rating. Distance from the mob also plays a factor. It is incorrect to say threat is purely based on weapon ratios.

[Raev]

A miss does not generate as much aggro as a hit.

Melee threat is based on swings, not hit/miss. If you need convincing, you can do the test yourself:

Friend A aggros mob
Friend B casts Stun
Friend C melees with a 2H without a proc

You will find that it takes a constant number of swings for the mob to turn from Friend B to Friend C.

It is incorrect to say threat is purely based on weapon ratios.
This is true, but not at his level. The damage bonus doesn't kick in till L28 (IIRC) and proccing weapons are garbage until 35-45 depending. Which is the whole point of my post: usually warriors can pick faster proccing weapons to generate more threat than rogues, but those options are not available to him, which is why he has fallen into a corner case.

[phacemeltar]

id get a Smoldering Brand. theyre a bit expensive, but im sure you can get a decent deal on them. higher dmg than obsidian shard plus they proc at level one.

dual wield with Iksar Berserker Club

[Jimjam]

Something worth noting is the off hand can't double attack until 150+ skill.

Furthermore, the off hand can proc, even when dual wield fails to produce a swing.

As such at low dw/da skill levels (if you don't want to go the two hander route) I've found it much preferable to have an aggro/utility proc going off at half rate in the offhand than an offhand dps weapon that is struggling to swing a quarter as much as the primary.

I've used a polished granite tomahawk on a few characters and being a rune / str buff helps generate aoe aggro, pads your tanking and improves your primary hand dps. I suppose the obsidian shard could be used offhand for the nuke / ac debuff to generate aggro and help the melee's dps.

[RDawg816]

If your main issue is mana from rogue aggro, I'd suggest a combination of the ideas mentioned.

Pull with a bow
Keep warrior between 30 and 40% health when possible
Have rogue wait a few seconds
Root the mob
Have rogue spam evade always
Save backstab for finishing mobs off

And if you have plat left over, weapons are good...

[Pyrion]

How about letting the warrior fight in berserk mode? You gotta keep him under 40% HP for that. Maybe that helps.

[Veranish]

Thanks for the tips everyone. Warrior uses a bow to pull now, though getting our hands on arrows is becoming a problem.

The rogue waits a few hits, and he uses a goblin skull crusher to proc Stun and an obsidian granite tomahawk to proc beserker strength. This keeps aggro pretty well focused on him, Rogue can get two or three backstabs in before aggro turns to him.

Rogue is doing evade yep. If it's a particularly bad aggro time I'll root it but it's a waste of my very limited mana to do it every time right now at low levels. (Rogue and Warrior buds have taken up all my money, don't have much left for my cleric.)

[kaev]

Look up fletching on wiki, very easy to skill-up to the point where you're making 150 range arrows for cheap (trivial 56).

[Jimjam]

Make sure you are doing something to get onto each mob's hate list early in the fight (maybe a single swing of your club). Doing this means there is a second person for the rogue to evade their aggro down to (if I understand the mechanic right).