Naggy - and conceding MoBs generally

[Pan]

Some fun at Naggy this morning - submitted a bug report which I will paste in full below.

But wanted to get some feedback on two things from this quorum:

1) On an obvious bug, do we expect each other to concede the encounter? I got some pushback that it wasn't our fault - but the bottom line is our FTE trained Asgard and Taken. So I made the call to concede the encounter.

2) After we conceded the encounter, Asgard wiped. It's my understanding that when you concede, you leave the zone. Others argued that after everyone got put back together, even with a concession, we had a shot. "That's how it works." I disagree. I think if you concede, you leave. But if you all see it a different way (i.e. you give the wipees a legit shot without pressure before you engage again), let's discuss.

Bug report here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=213628

Bug report in full here copy/pasta:
This has happened to us 3x so far:

When fighting a FG in the flat spot near 4-spawn, or on the ramp by the drawbridge, they'll warp somewhere and aggro Naggy, Magi, and the 2 near Naggy's door. This happens on Rage and Naggy encounters.

That pulls Naggy or Rage out of the lair back to where the giant was being killed, eventually.

This is troublesome because we were fighting our way to Naggy with a good, balanced kill force, a giant warped which social aggroed Naggy and we got the FTE message, and the ensuing Naggy mess (him and all of the remaining FGs) ran over us, Asgard, and Taken.

We conceded the encounter immediately. But we conceded due to a warping bug.

[Artaenc]

When one of my members trained poop mountain accidentally for Trak we conceded immediately and CRed/left the zone.

I know the bug you are talking about and that is definitely getting annoying. It actually happened to us right after because the Magi stopped at that spot and started casting then warped.

I told AG that you guys should kill the dragon with us but you guys already left after we got semi settled from getting disoriented.

I don't know about other guilds but when BDA trained us in Seb for Trak last time they stayed in zone because they stated that they conceded for an hour. They were right at the entrance to the lair I believe the entire time we were trying to CR and racing Taken for the dragon.

If we caused a train because of that bug we will also concede and leave the zone in the future. I just think it's our screw up for not staying away from that spot in the first place. There was nobody to concede to at that time, we were the only ones left there, Taken was in ToV during that time.

[Erati]

1. Bug or not - it exists in our game world which we share and thusly we share responsibility of the aggro which is caused. Many can be prevented such as the FG warp you experienced, when it has happened to us in the past- we have to charge the lair before everything comes out the door. We will DQ ourselves if our train wipes you out - that one is an easy one to point blame n notice.

If your train/aggro wipes out another guild from getting their attempt then you surely should concede regardless if a server glitch or not

[Detoxx]

Conceding usually meant that you no longer could attempt the mob, no matter if people wiped or not. When Velious launched, and a week or 2 later, a few guilds that were in ToV came together and make some of our own rules together with Sirkens approval. One of the rules we agreed to in ToV only was if you did some sort of training you needed to concede one atttempt / an hour.

This applied to only ToV, but if we all wanted to, i'm sure we could could up with our own rules sets that GMs would enforce.

[Drakakade]

In the past, when Divinity has goofed up a FTE pull or under the old rules when one of our trackers got FTE we conceded the mob and got out of zone. I believe Sirken set precedent when he ruled on a Sev engage long ago as well.

Stuff happens no matter what, and tbh, we have pleased with the (fairly) collegial raid scene in Velious.

[Pint]

Arta and cloki are referring to two different nagafens which is a bit confusing. Concession means you walk away for the night, maybe it doesn't work like this in tov where raiding is a huge process but outside of tov on single target encounters if you train another guild then you should come back next week. That is my understanding although maybe I'm wrong. I will say though that if you tell the opposing guild what you're about to do and they stand on top of you after being warned then that is on them.

[bktroost]

Arta and cloki are referring to two different nagafens which is a bit confusing. Concession means you walk away for the night, maybe it doesn't work like this in tov where raiding is a huge process but outside of tov on single target encounters if you train another guild then you should come back next week. That is my understanding although maybe I'm wrong. I will say though that if you tell the opposing guild what you're about to do and they stand on top of you after being warned then that is on them.

I think the first thing here is being willing to concede a mob regardless of your vested interest and then the other guild being realistic about the situation.

For example, I was on a necro at the front of the charge, leading my people into position to pull giants and was killed by an opposing guild pulling giants behind us. Some would call that a train, but I didn't see it that way as much as us not communicating. Later that same encounter an opposing guild pulled Naggy and giants to the bridge and wiped my little raid of about 12 people after saying "camp now" as the mobs were inc. Now that should have disqualified them under this rule set...

However, none of my 12 were actually tanks and realistically I was not set up to engage the dragon had we not been trained and had there been no other guilds there. So I didn't push for a DQ and I just pulled my people out.

They did not, however, offer to DQ themselves. Realistically, we just need to be communicative and be the first ones to call ourselves out on things, regardless of how much we want these mobs or how many people we have at the spot. If a puller does something bad and leadership calls a DQ on themselves it's only going to provide a strong incentive to make your puller better and your guild stronger. If leadership tries to lawyerquest or ignore then it provides an incentive for your pull team to do that more, not less. Everyone does the right thing and it works out.

[Artaenc]

For example, I was on a necro at the front of the charge, leading my people into position to pull giants and was killed by an opposing guild pulling giants behind us..

That's a good thing to bring up because it needs to be addressed. There is really not a lot of places to go in there while clearing giants, it's basically a small channel to /split/clear giants. If a guild is standing right on the path then they are basically cockblocking the other guilds which will be the case the majority of the time. Someone could be sitting and the pulled giant would most likely snack on a guild that's on the path. Why not make sure you have agro before pulling through another camp you say? Well a pulling monk can only last for so long with 4 giants beating on them to ensure that they will stick on the puller.

It's challenging to wait for the guild in front to kill a giant every 25 minutes because they could only field 2 lvl 60s to clear them. I know I'm talking extremes here but you get the point.

Thoughts?

[Pint]

I was talking to you on your necro Nemce and I remember telling you that we were going to split the lair giants with 2 monks, which meant that either of them stood a very good chance of eating a fear and training down toward tranix. If you stayed in that path after being warned, you cant really blame it on the guild that warned you to back up. Us telling you to camp after those monks in fact did eat fear and end up at bridge was just a courtesy. We sized up your force and came to the conclusion that you guys did not have an engage and were just waiting for more ppl, you just happened to be waiting in a bad place at a bad time.

[Pan]

Two things are going on in this thread:

1. Discussion of Naggy encounter proper.
2. Discussion of what it means to "concede".

Both viable topics, imo. But very different, too.

So my questions remain:

1. If you warp a mob and it wipes another guild (irrespective of where they are), do you man up and concede, or not? (In some cases, naggy chains past the drawbridge and even into FG prep.)

2. What does it mean to concede? Do you leave the zone and leave the MoB up? Or are you advocating any of another bundle of interpretations of the word (i.e. NOT conceding but calling it that anyway)?

[Pint]

If you concede a mob then you should leave until the mob is dead or uncontested. I dont think youre going to get everyone to agree on that though.

Wiping a raid due to bad mechanics is iffy, I wouldnt want to concede a mob if it was out of my control, but I know about the solb bug so that is within my control.

[Ella`Ella]

1. If you warp a mob and it wipes another guild (irrespective of where they are), do you man up and concede, or not? (In some cases, naggy chains past the drawbridge and even into FG prep.)

Yes - as per the rules, if another guild asks you to concede you may do so. If however submitting fraps after the fact exonerates you of any wrong doing, then the guild that asked you to concede will have to concede that mob the next two times.


Q5: What about in cases where the mob dies before anyone is sure whom is at fault?
A: In some situations, it’s possible that the mob will be killed before anyone can be certain who are to blame, and so no guild will concede/forfeit. In these situations, the crime has already been committed and the offending guild will lose the loot, but they will also be forced to concede the next spawn of that mob that is available to them. They can do this by posting in the raid discussion forum, and stating that they will not be competing for the next spawn of that mob available to them, as well as requesting to have the loots removed. As long as the items have not been turned in, this will be accepted by the staff and not warrant a raid suspension. (Note* if the offending guilds actions effect another guild/party, but do not result in the offending guild getting the kill, they will still be expected to follow the above, except for the loot, as they wouldn’t have it)
Note on Conceding / Forfeiting – You should concede a mob whenever your actions negatively impact another guild’s attempt at a mob, regardless of which zone the mob or the infraction take place in. Also, as far as what to concede / forfeit, if you still have a shot at the current mob, you should concede/forfeit that mob, if you do not still have a chance at the current mob, you should concede/forfeit the next one (it’s silly to try and concede a mob after you no longer have a real chance to kill that mob.
Note on Crying Wolf – if you request that another guild concede a mob, you better be 100% certain that they made an error, because if you make another guild concede/forfeit a mob under false pretenses you will be punished harshly.
Note on Lockouts – if you concede a mob, or are suspended from a mob, those mobs will not be the mobs you are locked out from, they will be in addition to the mobs you are locked out from.
Note on Rule Lawyering – I think the spirit of everything we are trying to accomplish here is pretty clear, and anyone that tries to twist the words to support and/or justify nefarious actions that go against the spirit of the rules posted here will not be rewarded. There will be no “technically this could be that”, or “well it doesn’t exactly say this word for word”.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189856

2. What does it mean to concede? Do you leave the zone and leave the MoB up? Or are you advocating any of another bundle of interpretations of the word (i.e. NOT conceding but calling it that anyway)?

You forfeit any further attempts on the mob until it is killed by any competing raid force. If you are jointly raiding with another guild, the allied guild also may not make any further attempts until killed by a non-allied raid force. You must also make your concession very clear.

It's always best to communicate it via /ooc or /shout, however sending a /tell to the contesting guilds raid leader/officer will suffice, just make sure your screen shot it in case they try any funny business. Intent by action is not enough to qualify for a concession/forfeiture. For example, you can't simply port/zone your entire raid force out and not say anything to the opposing guild and consider that a valid concession.

[bktroost]

If you concede a mob then you should leave until the mob is dead or uncontested. I dont think youre going to get everyone to agree on that though.

Wiping a raid due to bad mechanics is iffy, I wouldnt want to concede a mob if it was out of my control, but I know about the solb bug so that is within my control.

I can completely agree to this.