Warriors rejected because of no Obsidian shard

[Ashimar]

"Rogean: Taunt puts you at the top of the aggro list. If you are already at the top, it does nothing. However it does fail a lot, and it doesn't have a visible fail message, so just keep trying until you have aggro, then stop using it until you lose aggro."

So why do warriors use Obsidian Shards for aggro when they can just taunt?
Is it because if taunt does fail, the proc from the weapon serves as a "taunt"?

or do people scowl at warriors to use Obsidian shards because of the 30 DMG
proc helps to lower mob HP strictly?

Whats the deal here people?

[Messianic]

Because Taunt sucks. Aggro by proc doesn't.

[Crone]

Lol taunt fails a lot, and only works on mobs that are lower level than you.

All those white-red con mobs you fight in a "good" exp group? Ya, taunt doesn't work on any of those, but weapon procs do.

[Ashimar]

Ok so the gist of this is that the Taunt ability works on lower lvl mob, but not higher lvl than you are.
And the aggro proc on weapons works on higher lvl mobs.

So would i even need to taunt if i was Duel weilding 2 aggro proccing weapons
against a Mob that is lower lvl?

[Hasbinbad]

Gnoll Hide Lariats FTW

[Ashimar]

Gnoll Hide Lariats FTW

I would use these but when i do people start treating me like i their pet. :p

[Crone]

Sometimes you don't get weapon procs, because they are random. If it's a lower level mob, I use taunt if it is not attacking me to try and bring it to me.

Ok so the gist of this is that the Taunt ability works on lower lvl mob, but not higher lvl than you are.
And the aggro proc on weapons works on higher lvl mobs.

So would i even need to taunt if i was Duel weilding 2 aggro proccing weapons
against a Mob that is lower lvl?

[azeth]

Top of the aggro list example:

Warrior - 0 hate
Rogue - 1000 hate

Warrior hits taunt

Warrior - 1001 hate

Rogue attacks once

Rogue - > 1001 hate.

This is why you need proc aggro. Consider if your mob is The Spiroc Lord... the moment a class other than you takes aggro they are dead.

[Rhambuk]

Warriors rely on agro from DPS and Proc weaps. taunt works but its so rare you cant count on it in a group or every mob would be bouncing everywhere.

Taunt puts you at 1 agro pt higher than the highest person with agro also taunt is only effective on mobs even con and lower so you CANT taunt yellow/reds.

1pt of dmg = 1 pt of agro. So if your war is only using taunt and no proc weapons when they taunt agro off lets say a rog, the next melee round rog is just going to steal it back, since taunt barely works you wouldnt be able to hold agro.

So warriors use agro weapons, stun whips Obsidian shards yaks in particular because these weapon procs cause High agro, stun the ac debuff, and dmg stun.

Without proper agro weaps a war really isnt going to hold agro, its possible but not reliable.

this may not be 100% accurate i just kind of wrote a quicky if anyone wants to correct any mistakes.

Edit, Took me too long to write this theres already 5 responses =p

[azeth]

Just don't forget that while YES taunt will snap aggro back on to you, the time the mob was NOT aggrod on you (the warrior) it likely could have demolished other necessary classes needed to defeat it.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Just don't forget that while YES taunt will snap aggro back on to you, the time the mob was NOT aggrod on you (the warrior) it killed the ranger.

[Darkrainhunter]

Ok so the gist of this is that the Taunt ability works on lower lvl mob, but not higher lvl than you are.
And the aggro proc on weapons works on higher lvl mobs.

So would i even need to taunt if i was Duel weilding 2 aggro proccing weapons
against a Mob that is lower lvl?

If you can convince somebody in your party to root the mob i.e. Druid, Wizard, Cleric, a Lootmonkey with 2 rooty swords, ect. You don't have to worry as much about your weapons, just be the closest to the mob.

before I got my shards, I used 2 lang's. With mob rooted it worked just fine.

[Estu]

If you can convince somebody in your party to root the mob i.e. Druid, Wizard, Cleric, a Lootmonkey with 2 rooty swords, ect. You don't have to worry as much about your weapons, just be the closest to the mob.

before I got my shards, I used 2 lang's. With mob rooted it worked just fine.

Problem with this is if the mob cons red (or yellow), which it often will in large groups, that root's either gonna get insta-resisted or is gonna last for two seconds, and in either case is gonna draw aggro onto whatever squishy class cast it.

[Dantes]

Obsidian Shatter is more than a 30dmg proc, it's also an AC debuff. Mobs hate debuffs. Gnoll hide lariats aren't very effective by comparison, and they don't proc until level 25 vs Obsidian Shards at level 16. That's why shards are popular.

[rainingvodka]

in my experience, taunt does not currently work on even con (white) mobs on p99. I *may* be incorrect on that but if so, the chance of success on such mobs is so remote (like 1-5%) it may as well not work.

some weapon procs generate hate. As Dantes already said, it's the ac debuff that does this. The stun for gnoll hide lariats are also good for hate, but they blow ass clowns for dps. Since dps also generates hater, less dps = bad for the warrior.

There are really only a few weapons in game right now that generate hate. Obsidian shards are the only good ones both tradeable and usable at lower levels.

[Shabaza]

Its a problematic theme.

a) take a PGT 6/26 or an obsidian shard 6/25 with a proc but slow ... not so much damage but aggro when it procs.
b) take a - as example a silverish scimitar 6/22 with more damage but no proc

Damage = aggro so the constant stream of aggro from b) is better.
Proc = aggro so when the proc comes early in fight a) its better.

But these damnd procs happen to go when theire not needed and then 5 in a row .... and when you need them ...

The second part to mention is
a) mobs tend to fight ppl. who are in melee range
b) the nearer youll stand to the mob the more he hates you.

As a caster on max range you can to a degree overnuke (while standing) and have no problems (sitting is another problem).

As a melee youll have to stand on max melee range except when youre the tank then youll have to stand on min melee range ( nearly inside the mob).

Most tanks I see are standing there when the mob starts attacking them and do not close up to the mob.

I tried it in a twink group with a silverish scimitar and a dragoon dirk and min melee range and my aggro generation (mob losing) was not greater than of our other war with an obsidian shard in main ... but my aggro genteration was better in the time he used his pgt ( he did not stand min range ).
In kunark lamentation 9/19 were the warrior weapons (fast / no proc ).

[Hasbinbad]

in my experience, taunt does not currently work on even con (white) mobs on p99. I *may* be incorrect on that but if so, the chance of success on such mobs is so remote (like 1-5%) it may as well not work.

some weapon procs generate hate. As Dantes already said, it's the ac debuff that does this. The stun for gnoll hide lariats are also good for hate, but they blow ass clowns for dps. Since dps also generates hater, less dps = bad for the warrior.

There are really only a few weapons in game right now that generate hate. Obsidian shards are the only good ones both tradeable and usable at lower levels.
lol warrior dps, lol.

[Kavanah]

lol warrior dps, lol.

I dish out pretty decent dps with my warrior right O.o

And I know its Plane of Power, but warriors tanking with Blade of War in raids were always WAY above anyone else in DPS because the riposte damage was stupid. =P

As for Original Poster, PGT + Obsidian shard is 400-500pp and easily obtainable by lvl 20 and you won't get anything better until you can replace that shard with a yak at 37. Get after it!

[Estu]

you won't get anything better until you can replace that shard with a yak at 37. Get after it!

What about Axe of the Slayers at 30?

[azeth]

I dish out pretty decent dps with my warrior right

I think what is perceived as decent dps by non-dps oriented melee classes really amounts to nothing in regard to the Hate you think you're generating. Example my hits look something like (rogue) without backstab:

miss
71
35
1
30
71
miss
miss
40
71
45
30
71
miss
miss over lets say 11 seconds so 42 dps

Now, I'm sure some of you warriors are thinking "That's not much above the damage I'm producing." You're right. However include backstab:

miss
71
35
1
330
30
71
miss
miss
40
71
45
30
71
202
miss
miss over 11 seconds, 90dps

Don't be fooled into thinking your string of hits without misses are anywhere near comparable to an actual DPS class. To be noted: Monks are badass and I do not disclude you all when talking about dps "classes" given yours is often > ours.

Also to be noted: if you're a tank and my statement hurts your butt/feelings, you should have rolled a DPS class. You're also welcome to laugh and acknowledge how terrible rogues are at tanking, it just boils down to facts. Use proccing weapons. end.

[Spewys]

Yeah taunt only works on greens, blues, whites...That is not always a for sure thing either. I do however keep mashing the key anyway.

[knottyb0y]

Warriors can tank effectively on p1999!

Well let me just add to what has been previously stated.

Taunt does not work on anything higher level than you, as these previous posts state it will not work on even con mobs (I am unsure of this result however). This will lead to problems for a warrior.

Warriors can effectively tank, and hold aggro if they are A) geared properly for their level range, b) in a group that understands aggro generation and control.

Something that most exp groups in my level range (30s) do not understand is controlling aggro. Because of this, it is much easier to have a Shadow knight or Paladin tank (even with inferior HP and defenses) because both these classes can generate aggro at will regardless of NPC level by casting simple low level spells (disease cloud, flash of light, stun, etc). Does this mean they are better tanks? Not necessarily just a lot more dummy proof.

A warrior tanking for a group needs to do several things in order to properly hold aggro.

1) Equipment: Your weapon or weapons needs to be as high damage output as possible. Procs that generate aggro are very helpful. As a warrior slacking on gear will dramatically effect your ability to tank. Your gear is what allows you to do what you do.(such as obsidian shards, or obsidian flamberge, SSoY etc).

2) If you can pull as the warrior/tank this helps tremendously. Being the first on the hate list gives you a greater opportunity to build hate. With that said it is not necessary for the warrior to pull to be an effective tank.

3) Let your group understand that they need to control their aggro. If they get aggro as a melee they need to turn off attack for a couple of seconds. Casters need to wait a little bit before dropping big nukes etc. Really the only exception to casting early should be necessary debuffs such as slow etc. This may seem like a weakness to you but really classic eq is about aggro control, we are just spoiled by the current iteration of MMORPG's where aggro control is a minor topic.

4) This is perhaps the most important, once you have done all the previous steps (except maybe pulling). Make sure you you begin each fight as such. You call out the target, and you and only you engage the mob for 5-15 seconds so you can build up that hate, maybe get a proc or two. once you have done a good amount of hate call Engage to the party (i suggest hot keys for both of these "I am engaging target, do not engage or cast until I call" and of course "Engage target now!"). This step is important because it allows you a head start on everyone's aggro, you will take a few lumps but that's why you have hp, and warrior dps currently with a little head start will do the rest vs monks/rogues etc. Make sure the party knows if they steal aggro to hold still and stop attacking you will be able to get aggro back in no time.

5) Mezzed Mobs: This one is very difficult, because mez will generate a large amount of aggro for the enchanter/bard/necro who has been doing crowd control. What you need to do is if the mob is blue con, give it 3 good taunts before breaking mez. If the mob is higher con then you must, if possible, have the creature rooted (if they can mez it they can root it), and give yourself at least 15 seconds of special time after breaking mez. This is the toughest part of controlling aggro because Crowd control is necessary but inherently builds large amounts of aggro.

Once you understand how your abilities work and give your party a little talking on how you have to tank, you will find things running smoothly. You may have to remind the party to control aggro here and there. Keep your gear at top shape, Have multiple weapon sets (aggro, and dps at the least). Realize your limitations and your advantages and a warrior will have no problem tanking.

PS: Things get a lot better as new gear/content opens. Stick it out

[Spewys]

Great post Knotty....Good info for sure.

[Hasbinbad]

given yours is often > ours.
Speak for yourself.
how terrible rogues are at tanking
Speak for yourself.

[Crone]

Because mobs will be all blue, level 40+ Warriors get a lot better. You'll be able to effectively taunt everything that you are fighting for exp, and that makes things a lot easier.

So just keep on, keeping on! You'll get there.

[azeth]

Speak for yourself.

Speak for yourself.

sorry dude not everyone had the chance to get full LR.

edit: lol, wait yes they did, during Halloween

[Messianic]

"Rogean: Taunt puts you at the top of the aggro list. If you are already at the top, it does nothing. However it does fail a lot, and it doesn't have a visible fail message, so just keep trying until you have aggro, then stop using it until you lose aggro."

So why do warriors use Obsidian Shards for aggro when they can just taunt?
Is it because if taunt does fail, the proc from the weapon serves as a "taunt"?

or do people scowl at warriors to use Obsidian shards because of the 30 DMG
proc helps to lower mob HP strictly?

Whats the deal here people?

I'll never forget one of Ashimar's first posts:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18465&

Totally worth resurrecting.

[Aadill]

I'll never forget one of Ashimar's first posts:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18465&

Totally worth resurrecting.

ha

[Spewys]

Thats pretty funny for sure..

[Ashimar]

I'll never forget one of Ashimar's first posts:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18465&

Totally worth resurrecting.

The post was to stir up some flaming. It doesn't really reflect
how i play as a warrior. I have Aggro Proccing weapons, i just
dont prefer to use Shards if the mobs aren't attacking other members.

[Spewys]

I do find it amusing how people can remember a post from months or even years ago and dig it out of the archives...

[ziggyholiday]

I love it when a fellow warriors talks about how he or she does "decent dps"....compared to what, retard? (Not directed at anyone above btw)

In planar gear and dual yaks I generally run around 24 DPS according to people in the raid running meters, where as the acutal DPS classes are doing 50-75.

[knottyb0y]

I love it when a fellow warriors talks about how he or she does "decent dps"....compared to what, retard? (Not directed at anyone above btw)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't warriors the baseline for melee dps? Maybe things aren't balanced as I remember but if a warrior, sk, pal, monk, rogue, ranger and bard were all wielding the same damage/delay weapons(obviously taking in account pal/sk inability to dw and bard/rogue's inability to wield 2 handers) would the results end up something like this?

1. rogue (dual wield/backstab/double attack)
2. monk (dual wield/double attack/flying kick)
3. war (dual wield/double attack/kick or slam)
4. ranger (dual wield/double attack/kick)
5. pal/sk (double attack)
6. bard (dual wield)

I guess this theory does not account for the difference in gear of course. Also it may be possible that monks top rogues for dps in the server's current state (I have done little research to this fact on this server but I remember this from live). Does anyone have any data to confirm/deny this statement?

Also are pal/sk/war defense and offense skills capped at the same level right now? I would like to see where all the melee classes stand in that respect.

[azeth]

Also it may be possible that monks top rogues for dps in the server's current state (I have done little research to this fact on this server but I remember this from live). Does anyone have any data to confirm/deny this statement?

I have a bunch of logs to confirm that monks can often out dps rogues with max strength and equipped with Crystalline Spear or Efreeti War Spear + Bone Razor offhand. (those just happen to be the combos we have available in Dark Ascension currently, no vexthornes, or fss')

Consider though monks have access to dual 14/28 fists, whereas the above two rogue combos are 13/30 & 15/40 + 10/22. I personally use the 15/40 and I actually switch it out for Eyerazzia 10/24 inbetween backstabs.

Most of the time of one the rogues will top the DPS chart, but our damage is extremely burst dependant unless you're using a couple variations on weapon combos where you'd focus on small/fast versus high damage/slow. If we miss more than a few backstabs the DPS chart will likely read 1. Monk 2. Monk 3. Rogue etc, which really just speaks to the riskiness of using higher damage/delay weapons when engaging lvl 52+ targets. We actually have a fella in DA who uses Bone Razor + PSD and he especially demonstrates this combo's effectiveness when we're in PoSky.

[Hasbinbad]

I've been outdps'd (oh, the horror) by loke (arguably the highest dps monk on p99) one time on an FG when i missed like 3 backstabs in a row, and then only by one dps.. other than that i have never been outdps'd by any monk..

[Naerron]

i didn't read anything past the first page, so sorry if this is a repeat but, obsid shard is good agro because it is a lower AC debuff, the 30 dmg is a very small portion of the agro from the proc. Warriors with low dex suck at life!

[Lazortag]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't warriors the baseline for melee dps? Maybe things aren't balanced as I remember but if a warrior, sk, pal, monk, rogue, ranger and bard were all wielding the same damage/delay weapons(obviously taking in account pal/sk inability to dw and bard/rogue's inability to wield 2 handers) would the results end up something like this?

1. rogue (dual wield/backstab/double attack)
2. monk (dual wield/double attack/flying kick)
3. war (dual wield/double attack/kick or slam)
4. ranger (dual wield/double attack/kick)
5. pal/sk (double attack)
6. bard (dual wield)


With DOT's I'm pretty sure Bards would be higher, but if you're just talking about melee, this seems accurate... but are rangers really lower than warriors? What if you account for spells and other shit like that?

[Dantes]

Should be

3. war (dual wield/double attack/kick or slam/crits)

[azeth]

one time on an FG when i missed like 3 backstabs in a row

http://stock1.pho.to/data1/6/0/b/60bfe86d-c80b-69a4-398f-eb372fbcb7bd.png (http://share.pho.to/7mV1b6)

65.4% chance to miss and you're saying you've only missed 3 backstabs in a row once? Also, saying that those 3 backstabs account for such a large amount of your damage that Loke was able to out dps you? The Efreeti War Spear 15/40, I use, only produces 14% of my total. Also that parse is over 5 fights, and I've missed Backstab 9 times.

The fact is, the main hand damage bonus on P99 is great enough to allow dual wielding classes to keep up with rogues, specifically monks. Not only are their weapon selection ratios >, but they just honestly hit harder and faster. Speed is everything on P99 considering the dmg bonus. I have 0 proof or backup regarding Live miss % etc to compare with our server, but often I feel like the amount of damage I'm piercing for, backstabbing for, and missing is just not what I remember.

[Rahnza]

Shit, you mean combat mechanics don't function the same between two servers running completely different code? No way!

[Xadion]

I personally use the 15/40 and I actually switch it out for Eyerazzia 10/24 inbetween backstabs.



Sorry to troll u broz but this is the weapon u use...dont lie.

http://common.allakhazam.com/images/0/d/0de528f48d725eb31d1ccdfb9371c4eb.png

[Magnavox]

Ashimar.. you are a disgrace to warriors. that is all

[Ashimar]

Ashimar.. you are a disgrace to warriors. that is all

Nah. i play my class, and i play it well.

[Magnavox]

then why do you ask so many bad questions?

[Magnavox]

also, why do you cry that warriors are hard to play? all u have to do is get 2 obsidian shards are you're set til 2 yaks

[Daldaen]

I've been outdps'd (oh, the horror) by loke (arguably the highest dps monk on p99) one time on an FG when i missed like 3 backstabs in a row, and then only by one dps.. other than that i have never been outdps'd by any monk..

Lol @ the notion that playing a pure melee on a classic server requires a "good" player to get the most of your DPS. There are so few factors in Classic EQ, hell its harder to be good DPS on some easy game like WoW.

[Yak]

I'll never forget one of Ashimar's first posts:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18465&

Totally worth resurrecting.

Yes, it was!!! I might say the ignorance of Ashimar was highly entertaining and worth the price of admission. Lesson learned from this thread, always inspect a warrior before running off with them. :)

[Ashimar]

Yes, it was!!! I might say the ignorance of Ashimar was highly entertaining and worth the price of admission. Lesson learned from this thread, always inspect a warrior before running off with them. :)

Good thing my name on here isnt the same as in the game, douchebag.

[Ashimar]

also, why do you cry that warriors are hard to play? all u have to do is get 2 obsidian shards are you're set til 2 yaks

No one is crying, you're just making shit up and trolling. I posted
a thread about me soloing mobs as a warrior, and the "warriors"
rejected thread was to get peoples opinion. So stop posting
if your going to be negative.

[Kavanah]

I think what is perceived as decent dps by non-dps oriented melee classes really amounts to nothing in regard to the Hate you think you're generating. Example my hits look something like (rogue) without backstab:

miss
71
35
1
30
71
miss
miss
40
71
45
30
71
miss
miss over lets say 11 seconds so 42 dps

Now, I'm sure some of you warriors are thinking "That's not much above the damage I'm producing." You're right. However include backstab:

miss
71
35
1
330
30
71
miss
miss
40
71
45
30
71
202
miss
miss over 11 seconds, 90dps

Don't be fooled into thinking your string of hits without misses are anywhere near comparable to an actual DPS class. To be noted: Monks are badass and I do not disclude you all when talking about dps "classes" given yours is often > ours.

Also to be noted: if you're a tank and my statement hurts your butt/feelings, you should have rolled a DPS class. You're also welcome to laugh and acknowledge how terrible rogues are at tanking, it just boils down to facts. Use proccing weapons. end.


I'm sorry I forgot to mention I'm lvl 24 right now and was comparing it to other lvl 24 dpsers I've been grouping with.

With that information, I hope you don't think I was posting the previous statement of being decent dps in ignorance, as I've been using Yaulp to log the DPS. Unless Yaulp is completely off, then I am usually only a few dps lower than our rogues or monks when I use 1 yak and 1 shard. Most the time I use 2 shards. Anyways...

[Yak]

Good thing my name on here isnt the same as in the game, douchebag.

LMAO, that's the best can you do. Please learn to use spell check. With your grammar, one would think that you are 10 years old.

[Messianic]

Yes, it was!!! I might say the ignorance of Ashimar was highly entertaining and worth the price of admission. Lesson learned from this thread, always inspect a warrior before running off with them. :)

Well, I don't personally know what kind of warrior he is, or even if he is really ignorant. I just thought his communication style was kind of hilarious.

"WARRIORS WIELD WHAT THEY WANNA"

It's meme potential.

"TROLLS TROLL WHAT THEY WANNA"

You heard it first from me.

[iamjack]

I'm sorry I forgot to mention I'm lvl 24 right now and was comparing it to other lvl 24 dpsers I've been grouping with.

With that information, I hope you don't think I was posting the previous statement of being decent dps in ignorance, as I've been using Yaulp to log the DPS. Unless Yaulp is completely off, then I am usually only a few dps lower than our rogues or monks when I use 1 yak and 1 shard. Most the time I use 2 shards. Anyways...

paser doesn't inculde weapon proc dmg since spell damage doesn't broadcast though the channel...

i don't know the sum of dps inculding weapon proc....
but for pure melee dps only...warrior is hardly getting anywhere close to rogues and monks....
even for warriors with 2 yaks or ashbone hammer and 41% hastes, plus all the extra time they have to build aggo.
monk and rog have no trouble to out dps warrior for plane/sky mobs.

sum of warrior dmg is usually 50-75% of the dps class sum of dmg