Creation Point Discussion

[Hasbinbad]

There have been a few threads on how to spend character creation points in the past, but one thing I have noticed is that they are usually class-based discussions.

One thing that I never hear mentioned anymore, which ties all the classes together, and which I used to hear a lot from the people I played on live with, is the idea that you should spend your creation points based on which (important) stat is hardest to max with end-game gear.

Usually this turns out to be Stamina.

For example, let's look at how rogues and clerics both have good reason to spend their creation points on stamina.

For the common build of a rogue, we all know that STR is the main stat; WIS is the main stat for clerics. That being said, STR for rogues and WIS for clerics is extremely easy to max in an endgame situation. Considering shaman buffs, rogues can easily attain 255 strength (200wis for clerics) without wearing every piece of gear, regardless of how they spent their creation points. Since this is the case, other stats become relatively more important. Since later in the game it becomes hard NOT to max STR or WIS, because rogues get gear with very high str and clerics get gear with heavy wis, this becomes a real issue.

Imagine that as a rogue you spend 25 points in STR, thinking "hey, str is rogue main stat, i want more str." So, velious comes out and now you have 255 +10 str unbuffed. Badass right? Wrong. A lot of your gear is adding useless stats to your build. You can't even get the usefulness of shaman buffs anymore (which may please shamans, but is detrimental to your ability).

Now if you had spent those points in stamina, you would have 240 str unbuffed. You would be able to gain some benefit from buffs, but it wouldn't break you if you didn't have them. You could also get max benefit from a druid or even enchanter str buff at this point. ..but the thing is, now it's like you have a +25 stamina item on a whole new armor slot.

We're not exactly at that point yet. I still try and get my 188 str unbuffed with my armor kit, which is fairly easy and as I have gotten better gear with higher str on a single piece, i have been more able to trade out str above 188 for hp/sta/ac items. Right now, many clerics are getting high wis on a single piece and thus able to trade out chintzy wis items for hp/sta/ac items as well.

People are likely not to max out every stat on this emu, so this system holds some serious water for the foreseeable future. For rogues and clerics, stamina is both extremely useful and hard to max out, so by spending points there, we gain a new level of survivability. It may not be stamina for you! Enchanters have INT and CHA to worry about before they can look at other stats, but definitely do some research into which important stat is hardest for your class to max out with high end items, & spend your creation points there. It may seem like you're gimped at first (even I have struggled with that choice earlier on when i didn't have as high str as some other rogues), but in the long run you'll thank me.

[guineapig]

good post... and true dat.

[Samuel]

Man speaks the truth.

[Hasbinbad]

bump for noobs

[Ektar]

This is true to those that think this way (I surely do - why I staminaized). I live my life by way of thinking what will be best down the road (I'm a jew), and because of this always also think of (never consider) the opposite solution.

Should also keep in mind that top gear will be unavailable for about 2 years. Do you wanna be missing 20 points in your top stat for 2 years til you can finally max it out with velious gear? I do, but does everyone?



Obviously if you intend to join the top guilds you should highly consider the given point distribution. However, there are also those that plan to never get top end gear. They would do well to put points in their main stats.

[Hasbinbad]

While I agree about the difference between a long-term and short-term view, I take issue with your point regarding what people are able to do now. You seem to imply that it is impossible to max main stats now, which is wrong. Int casters are more than able to reach 200 int. In fact, I believe most of the top enchanters right now (with buffs) can hold int at 200 while simultaneously achieving 255 charisma.

I agree that the system I proposed above is more valuable further down the line, but I disagree that it is not valuable now.

[guineapig]

While I agree about the difference between a long-term and short-term view, I take issue with your point regarding what people are able to do now. You seem to imply that it is impossible to max main stats now, which is wrong. Int casters are more than able to reach 200 int. In fact, I believe most of the top enchanters right now (with buffs) can hold int at 200 while simultaneously achieving 255 charisma.

I agree that the system I proposed above is more valuable further down the line, but I disagree that it is not valuable now.

I can vouch for this.

I'm only level 46 and have zero raid gear (aside from crown of King Tormax) and very little in the way of "valuable" gear in general (no efreeti boots for example). With self buffs I can currently get to 207 int when doing tradeskills OR 210 charisma while charming in groups. My point being is that I am nowhere near a top end enchanter on this server at this point but already hit my INT softcap and can get max cap on charisma with a shammy buff and maybe 1 additional item. I have to swap gear to accomplish this but even if I split the 2 stats I can get both into the 170 range which is plenty for most situations if you ask me.

I left my int and charisma at the base minimum during character creation. (high elf)

[Ektar]

well I was only taking myself into account, human paladin with a a maximum starting stat of 105 hehe =p. So yeah as I was only taking myself into account I did not mean to say it is absolutely not valuable now... was just meant in a more... yeah you're right you basically clarified what I was tryin to say heh

[Brut]

Put just about everything to Dex on an ogre SK. Somewhat drunken at the time of creation, but guess it wasn't such a bad idea, then. =p

Shoulda hit 5 points to Agi tho to avoid the ac dip, but guess any gear will manage to add that.

[Yellow]

Great informative post man. kudos

[vageta31]

The other thing to consider is that stats aren't working exactly on this emu as classic. Apparently right now int/wis is still giving more mana past the "soft cap" of 200 than it did in classic. While dex may help increase proc rates, it seems that weapons proc more than I remember in classic already. My widdershins staff procs a lot without any direct dex buffs, usually once per fight even on greenies. I do notice it proc more often when I use rage and dexterity though I wouldn't say it was an astronomical difference. Strength definitely makes a noticeable difference, even past 200. My level 50 Ogre shaman hits for a max of 66 when my STR hits the 255 cap. Only hits for about 55 when it's less than 200. Not sure how AGI contributes to ac exactly but I do notice I get a nice boost with AGI buffs.

Personally I'd say it's hard to go wrong with stats in the long run, though in the short run it could effect you. I put 5 points into AGI at creation to reach the 75 soft cap (if I remember anything less than 75 drops your ac) but I don't really know if that works on this server or not. I spent the rest on WIS since it's harder to reach 200 wis with a shaman than a druid or cleric. That way I could hit 200 with less items and use the rest of my available slots for hp/mana/ac. It seems now however that even if you go over 200 you aren't really wasting points since it doesn't drop to 1 mana per wis/int. I don't even have 200 wis right now anyways, I've already replaced some items with mana/hp and ditched the wis anyways. Plat tiara is far better than any 5 wis helm even under the cap. Black sapphire earrings clearly better than a 3 wis earring even under the cap, etc..

[Danth]

While there's merit to the concept of building your character with high-end Velious in mind, I agree with Ektar. A player should build his character around his own specific needs. I know of at least seven tanks who quit early on because they took the usual advice of putting everything into stamina, then found they had no fun running around constantly encumbered. The 'perfect' stat build, far from doing those players any good, drove them out of even playing! That's seven I do know; how many more are there? Perhaps that's part of the reason I see groups complaining about a lack of tanks.

Also as Ektar notes, stat allocation becomes more important to weaker races. That Ogre Warrior can dump his 25 points into Charisma for all it would matter--he'd have great stats anyway. On the other end of things, an Erudite Paladin will have weak stats in some way or another regardless of what the player chooses.

Point being: Do what works for you. In the long run, equipment can overcome nearly any stat deficiency, so you can't permanently ruin your character. Rather, your race and stat choice may cause some temporary hardship at some point or another, whether it's early on ('man this bronze armor is heavy!') or later down the road ('I'd sure like another 10 or 15 points of stamina!'). For those who actually will reach end-game Velious, starting points--and even race--means very little.

Oh, and let's not forget the final impact of stat allocation: At most, these types of stat changes will affect your character by a few percent in the long run. It's nothing people should fret over too much.

Danth

[Tristin]

/agree with OP. I am playing a wood elf Ranger and I put a lot of points into STA. I have taken a Ranger to 60 and end game gear on a classi and kunark emu before everything was easy to come by and I always wished I had more STA. Thats what I did this time.

[Wikipedia2]

Enchanters can avoid charisma mostly based on the fact that you can get boatloads of charisma gear for so much cheaper than any almost any int gear.

[Hasbinbad]

A lot of new players posting, so bump for great justice.

[Hasbinbad]

Bump for teh nubs again.

[mirko]

Good post. Does this apply to one who can't twink their character. Figure if your gimped until you can start getting high end gear, how good are you throughout the beginning levels with no money to buy the gear with stats you need?

[Hasbinbad]

Good post. Does this apply to one who can't twink their character. Figure if your gimped until you can start getting high end gear, how good are you throughout the beginning levels with no money to buy the gear with stats you need?
If you cannot afford twink gear, you will notice a small drop in DPS based on STR, which doesn't really make a huge difference till later anyway. As you get your regular kit over time, you will thank me.

This is NOT only doable with planar gear, I have had 188 str since level 35/40 or so with gear that I got by grouping in areas where I can kill my own shit.

For a rogue, items like Hero Bracer, Thick Banded Belt, Crested Helm, Dwarven Work Boots, etc., this goal is VERY attainable by anyone who plays a rogue seriously (i.e. not floundering sub level 20 for months). Other classes have similarly obtainable gear pre-planes that will achieve these goals as well.

[Hasbinbad]

bump for noobs again

[Nedala]

hmpf i put almost all my points into wis and only a few in sta....should i reroll now? (i wont)

[Rabkorik]

bump for teh infoz

[Omnimorph]

I considered this tactic on live eq a while back, had me putting all my stats on my rogue into wisdom and cha ;)

[CPTMULLER]

If you cannot afford twink gear, you will notice a small drop in DPS based on STR, which doesn't really make a huge difference till later anyway. As you get your regular kit over time, you will thank me.

This is NOT only doable with planar gear, I have had 188 str since level 35/40 or so with gear that I got by grouping in areas where I can kill my own shit.

For a rogue, items like Hero Bracer, Thick Banded Belt, Crested Helm, Dwarven Work Boots, etc., this goal is VERY attainable by anyone who plays a rogue seriously (i.e. not floundering sub level 20 for months). Other classes have similarly obtainable gear pre-planes that will achieve these goals as well.
below 20 you don't get strength modified hits anyhow

[Skope]

I was always under the impression that charisma was hard to max, but perhaps that might be kunark?

Either way i threw all the points i could into stam when making my necro, never regretted it and nor will i ever :)

Something to keep in mind is that there are classes with exceptions. Shammies, particular soloing dragons for insane lewtz shammies, will never need more than 180 wis at endgame velious. Your cannibalize and torpor will couple for more than enough mana regen, and there's been countless threads discussing this (or at least that i remember reading on the old forums), stating that a point in stamina or +hp gear is more beneficial than a single point in wis.

Though with that said, you may still be better off throwing your points into wis at the start, not because you NEED 200 wis as a shaman in classic, but because you're allowed to focus on actual +hp/stam items rather than getting low AC/wis items in the expansions down the line.

[Weekapaug]

Imagine that as a rogue you spend 25 points in STR, thinking "hey, str is rogue main stat, i want more str." So, velious comes out and now you have 255 +10 str unbuffed. Badass right? Wrong. A lot of your gear is adding useless stats to your build. You can't even get the usefulness of shaman buffs anymore (which may please shamans, but is detrimental to your ability).



Great thread and I totally agree with your thinking as well of that of the other posters who suggest weighing long versus short term, but where rogues are concerned there may be a catch with this way of thinking.

The reason STR is the main stat for rogues is it is the stat that affects ATK. I may be sorely mistaken, but from what I read on a safehouse discussion years ago, "base" strength (as in the strength you have when you are standing naked) is calculated into ATK differently than STR from gear or buffs. According to the thread, a rogue with higher base STR will have higher ATK than another rogue with less naked STR in the same gear, buffed to cap, etc.

I was skeptical at the time, but the discussion seemed to have the nod of the resident experts, as I recall. I distinctly remember it though because I rolled my gnome rogue around PoP/LoY era when the popular consensus was that most classes should get anything important to 75 and then dump the rest into STA, which I did. When I read this thread some years later I happened to be knee deep in trying to eek out every bit of ATK at the time and I was kind of bummed about it considering my freaking STA was within 20-30 points of cap and I think I had only just started raiding.

Has anyone else ever heard of that? Or run into anything similar with another class? Like WIS with clerics, or STA with warriors?

[Weekapaug]

Oh, and in a similar vein to the OP's point...

I remember reading on The Steel Warrior at some point around Luclin/PoP era (give or take?) that dumping all points into CHA was a good idea for warriors because very little warrior raid gear had CHA on it until (I think) PoT or maybe even CoA. Apparently the CHA of the target affects weather Divine Intervention fires or not. This also gives high CHA race warriors like Wood Elves and Half Elves a leg up on the traditional Ogre main tank in some situations, basicly trading off frontal stun immunity for reliable DI, from what they were saying.

As I recall, DI is a kunark spell, so that could directly impact a lot of warriors here, no? I started raiding in Luclin content, so I have no idea, but I'm thinking of ultimately going with a warrior main, so this has been nagging at me a bit.

Anyone heard of this?

[maultar]

Without reading all the bullshit is cap on stats on this server 255?

[ShadowWulf]

Without reading all the bullshit is cap on stats on this server 255?

With that attitude why would you care?

[guineapig]

Without reading all the bullshit is cap on stats on this server 255?

Sort of...

I know that resist cap is like 400 or 500 for some reason, which needs to be addressed. You should probably read the thread though.

[maultar]

With that attitude why would you care?

Thanks Mom, I'll get info in game, thanks

[Forelis]

The reason STR is the main stat for rogues is it is the stat that affects ATK. I may be sorely mistaken, but from what I read on a safehouse discussion years ago, "base" strength (as in the strength you have when you are standing naked) is calculated into ATK differently than STR from gear or buffs. According to the thread, a rogue with higher base STR will have higher ATK than another rogue with less naked STR in the same gear, buffed to cap, etc.

I was skeptical at the time, but the discussion seemed to have the nod of the resident experts, as I recall. I distinctly remember it though because I rolled my gnome rogue around PoP/LoY era when the popular consensus was that most classes should get anything important to 75 and then dump the rest into STA, which I did. When I read this thread some years later I happened to be knee deep in trying to eek out every bit of ATK at the time and I was kind of bummed about it considering my freaking STA was within 20-30 points of cap and I think I had only just started raiding.

Has anyone else ever heard of that? Or run into anything similar with another class? Like WIS with clerics, or STA with warriors?

I'd swear I read that on monklybusiness 6 years ago too.

[girth]

Sort of...

I know that resist cap is like 400 or 500 for some reason, which needs to be addressed. You should probably read the thread though.

Is there a bug post on this anywhere? I searched but could not find anything. Just wondering, this seems like a huge issue to me.

[runlvlzero]

20 points in STA = less then 1 hit at lvl 50' worth of hp...

It just does not scale.

If you have no STR to wear bronze armor into your 30's your gonna suck as a plate glass.

Its a viable route for a rogue, i doubt people parse DPS logs here for xp groups and will shun you if your missing some STR, also rogue gear is a hell of a lot lighter for tanks...

STR is important for a "New Char/first char" because without plat to get any gear your gonna suck, and unless you wasn't to spend more time camping items then xping to get to 50 when you can get decent gear easily then your kinda gonna use whatever you come by which is gonna be almost nothing.

Anyway, go level a war on a pvp server with item loot then tell me what stats you think are important =)

I ended up soloing a troll war to 50 more or less and when he grouped he grouped naked at lvl 40+ unless it was a planar raid. It didn't really matter what my stats would have been if i was a shorty race i woulda picked STR so i could carry more bags and keep my shit from getting looted

[Reiker]

The point is that +str is on tons of gear, especially stuff you're going to use ie. hooded black cloak. +Sta is a lot more rare, and this holds especially true in Kunark and Velious. Str is better short-term, Sta is better long-term.

[guineapig]

Is there a bug post on this anywhere? I searched but could not find anything. Just wondering, this seems like a huge issue to me.

I don't think so... at least I havent heard about it.
However I myself don't have the type of resist gear with which I could test this before posting it.

I guess it could be tested with a bard, druid buffs and somebody with raid level resist gear though...

[Chicka]

I think you really have to consider the road to the end game. Personally I would NOT want to level a cleric having put 20 points in sta and 5 in wis (untwinked). I did 20 wis and 5 sta, and frankly like every classic cleric before me struggled with mana pool for most of the road to 50.

[Hasbinbad]

Bump for teh nubz.

[Trude]

Titanium is installing now. I'll be creating my rogue in less than an hour. I'm glad I read this. Still a little torn between STR and STA though I have to say. Or in other words I'm still a little torn between playing this game hardcore 9 hours a day late into velious or just casually-ish enjoying Norrath again.

At least now I have a strong understanding of what my 2 most lucrative options are, and the advantages/disadvantages to both.

[shuklak]

It seems pretty specific to high enders that you'll easily max most important stats. However, I've always subscribed to the idea that if you max INT (or whatever is most important) then you can switch to gear that is more hp/mana/save friendly.

When it comes down to it, I don't think it ever matters that much. When you're level 35 the extra mana could save you. I see that as the best case scenario, but at the same time maybe some more stamina would save you in a different scenario.

[Edzilla]

Quick noob question - is the soft-wis/int cap still 200 @ 60?

[maegi]

Str is the most important stat for a rogue? Never tried one in EQ, but isn't Dex usually the most important rogue stat in most games? Does dex only matter for procs in EQ then?

[Nagash]

Str is the most important stat for a rogue? Never tried one in EQ, but isn't Dex usually the most important rogue stat in most games? Does dex only matter for procs in EQ then?

I couldn't provide any figure but remember that EQ is the grand-pa of the MMO so doesn't work on quite the same basic ideas as the new ones. From my understanding:
- Strength increases you ATK, therefore your chance to hit and the average damage you do
- Dexterity increases your proc chance

So, unless you have a proccing weapon, Strength is the way to go; and even if you do have proccing weapons, I don't think the return on investment is as good as investing in strength (unless you have 74- in dexterity which shouldn't really happen for a rogue).
I'm not used to melee characters though so feel free to correct me.

Nagash/Petitpas

[username17]

I'm a 26 rogue.
Put all my points into STA that I could, last 5 in STR.

I'm @ 180str now. I'm quite glad I spent my points in STA.

[Sharkeye]

I'm a 32 rogue.
Put all my points into STR that I could, last bit in STA.

I'm @ 150str now. I'm quite glad I spent my points in STR.
((It all depends on if you have plat to spend twinking))

[Edzilla]

Quick noob question - is the soft-wis/int cap still 200 @ 60?

Bump for justice

[Polixenes]

The OP is writing this from an endgame point of view so anyone reading this has to bear in mind at character creation, is *this* character going to be raiding the end game?

The only time on live I ever was in the endgame was prior to Kunark's release. After that I kept buying the expansions but kept falling further and further behind the curve. The only reason I ever hit 255 on a stat was because I could solo equipment in the bazaar.

So bear in mind, if you are just making an alt to mess about with, dumping points into STR so you can carry loot might be a reasonable option even for a caster.

[baalzy]

Stat caps are 255.

[Edzilla]

Stat caps are 255.

I said soft cap. Pre-kunark, it was 200 for int/wis casters. Once you hit 200 int or wis, it was more beneficial to invest in pure mana items, instead of further increasing your int / wis. Is that cap still 200? or has it risen?

[baalzy]

Soft cap is 200 for caster stats.

[Edzilla]

Soft cap is 200 for caster stats.

So it doesn't change at level 60? Thanks - all I wanted to know.

[nalkin]

Any type of melee or any hybrid should put all points into stam regardless of how "hardcore" they plan on being. Pretty much the only classes that shouldn't put all points into stamina are mage, wizard, druid, and maybe enchanter. Mage it doesn't matter at all where you put you points.

[Bassracerx]

when i made my rouge i was thinking "this is classic eq wich is really hard and theres no uber buffs so hitpoints are a great thing to have" *dumps 20 points into stamina*

at lower levels with the damage caps there really is no use for strength you can get an uber str buff and see a very negligable dps increase if you have a decent weapon. and then in the mid levels 15 str is not that much of a dps increase either and it will soon be maxed with buffs anyways at the high levels like you said.

[Bassracerx]

monks should put all into str becasue they are so squishy anyways 100hp at lvl 60 most likely wont save them much.

they could go agility/dex tho to get more blocks/riptose/parrys/dodge

ranges should go all stamina tho those bastards allways die .. second thought dont make a ranger

[Bassracerx]

also dont see the point of even bothering with int most of the time. on my darkelf mage i put 25 into int but im allways below 50percent mana and my mana regens as fast as evryone else who is my level so what is the point of having the other 50% other then its good to have when you do have it but usually you dont

[Quasimojo]

also dont see the point of even bothering with int most of the time. on my darkelf mage i put 25 into int but im allways below 50percent mana and my mana regens as fast as evryone else who is my level so what is the point of having the other 50% other then its good to have when you do have it but usually you dont

Exactly. That extra mana only benefits you on the first fight after medding to full. Extra HP is always there for when the mobs go squishy hunting.

[nalkin]

Exactly. That extra mana only benefits you on the first fight after medding to full. Extra HP is always there for when the mobs go squishy hunting.

Except that the sta->hp return for int casters is horrible and constitutes like 1/8th of a hit from a mob at 50. I also agree that the extra mana is almost useless as well (since regen is not dependent on amount) which is why for a mage it makes no difference where you put your points.

For a fighter or hybrid though, definitely go stamina.

[Messianic]

Except that the sta->hp return for int casters is horrible and constitutes like 1/8th of a hit from a mob at 50. I also agree that the extra mana is almost useless as well (since regen is not dependent on amount) which is why for a mage it makes no difference where you put your points.

For a fighter or hybrid though, definitely go stamina.

Side note - Erudites are below the 75 agi bottom level by default, so it's worth it to put 5 points into that, then pump the rest into int.

Casters are in a different situation, since you can replace int gear with mana gear quite readily - as much int as possible is a good thing.

Although, as has already been mentioned, it only increases the size of your fuel tank, not the speed at which you replenish it. Regardless, i've found having a bigger fuel tank (and extra + hp gear for survivability, esp at lower levels before quadding comes into play) invaluable as a wizard, since it's all you've got...

[porigromus]

Shaman, Wis or Stam starting stats? You get more for your money with every Wis point. Also I was thinking if you put your points in Wis, you would have more opportunity to get AC/HP/+Mana items instead of Wis items.

Any thoughts?

[Mardur]

If you have to question it you might not want to go shaman.

But the answer is stamina. Mana pool becomes irrelevant at the high end.

[porigromus]

If you have to question it you might not want to go shaman.

But the answer is stamina. Mana pool becomes irrelevant at the high end.

I understand that canni uses hp to regain mana and I am not trying to be smart. Do you believe that this class in particular is more difficult than others? Is this why you suggest if I ask this question I may should go for a different class?

[pickled_heretic]

dex as a warrior, stam as a pal/sk

dex helps aggro, aggro is vital for any tank, pal/sk don't really have aggro issues that warrior does so they can afford to pump stam.

i would be surprised to see warriors running around consistently with over 200 dex atm (hardcap and softcap are the same for dex according to a dev post).

[Mardur]

I understand that canni uses hp to regain mana and I am not trying to be smart. Do you believe that this class in particular is more difficult than others? Is this why you suggest if I ask this question I may should go for a different class?

Because focusing on wisdom/mana will seriously gimp a shaman. At the lower end it doesn't matter much. Wisdom may even be the 'best" stat although the truth is that no stats really matter a whole lot for shaman at the low end. As you approach the high end the only stats that matter significantly are HP and Stamina. Secondary would be Regen, AC, and resists (to prevent losing your primary stat - HP). At 60 with Torpor you can effectively ignore the fact that the Wisdom stat even exists.

On live I had barely over 130ish wis for years until Elemental/Time gear, and that was just because this was when gear became "put all stats on everything." I had nearly 8000 HP, though.

Here's something interesting: in Time / early GoD gear I had +381 wisdom and +260 stamina from gear. This was with ignoring wisdom and putting a preference on HP gear.

[Snaggles]

Stamina isn't the best stat pick for everyone but is one of the harder stats to max, especially raid-buffed.

My halfling rogue put all his points in agil/dex and with some Ntov loot had base 185 str and 150ish stamina. I was gearing for HP gear at that point.

In grind groups you don't always have terrific stat buffs (chanter/cleric and no sham, etc). In a perfect scenario you are losing high-end capacity by not itemizing for your uncapped stats.

[pickled_heretic]

Stamina isn't the best stat pick for everyone but is one of the harder stats to max, especially raid-buffed.

My halfling rogue put all his points in agil/dex and with some Ntov loot had base 185 str and 150ish stamina. I was gearing for HP gear at that point.

In grind groups you don't always have terrific stat buffs (chanter/cleric and no sham, etc). In a perfect scenario you are losing high-end capacity by not itemizing for your uncapped stats.

i'm not really sure of the point of dex and agi for a rogue though..

[Snaggles]

i'm not really sure of the point of dex and agi for a rogue though..

Oh I completely agree. That was 20 year old logic in 1999. :rolleyes:

Main point is, "If I was that stupid you can't go wrong!"

Edited: change to "that wrong".

[Softcore PK]

As a gnome cleric, my main will be putting as many points into wisdom as she can; I'm not going to play a cleric with 77 base wis! I'm torn on whether to put the remaining 5 points into strength or stamina, though..

[Balamar]

So you are saying a shaman should place 25 points into stamina and 5 points into wisdom? That would net me 75 points in the higher levels correct? If I would have placed in 25 into wisdom, that would net me 250 mana?

So wouldn't it make sense to get 250 mana over the life of the character and throw on an earring that gives you 55 hit points or so?

[Mardur]

No such thing as too much hp.

Such a thing as too much mana.

[Balamar]

So from a shaman's standpoint, since I can buff every stat besides INT/WIS, wouldn't it be best to still go with WIS? I think a full set of Rune Etched armor gives 28 WIS. So if I have 85 at creation since I dumped most into STA, I would have 113 WIS.

Also, what if you want to try and do all of the tradeskills on a guy? Should STA still take precedence? Thank you.

[Werlop]

So from a shaman's standpoint, since I can buff every stat besides INT/WIS, wouldn't it be best to still go with WIS? I think a full set of Rune Etched armor gives 28 WIS. So if I have 85 at creation since I dumped most into STA, I would have 113 WIS.

Also, what if you want to try and do all of the tradeskills on a guy? Should STA still take precedence? Thank you.

You don't really need the WIS. The mana is unimportant, which is why STA is better even though you get more mana per WIS than hp per STA.
For tradeskills, just invest in some WIS gear. All it's doing is saving time/cost in learning the tradeskill.

[Cyrano]

I disagree on going full STA for a rogue. While I get that it helps with min-maxing, not many players have the gear you do Hasbin. At 59 I have 4k raid HP buffed, 25 STA is 2.5% of that total HP pool.

I split my points between STR and STA knowing that putting more in STR would give me tons of options when gearing. I get roughly 200 STA raid buffed (can make this go up quite a bit by switching items) but I like wearing resist gear most of the time.

While the 100HP you get at 60 from that STA is nice, it really only matters for the highest end players. For everyone else I would advise going with strength and sta split, especially if you aren't a Barb or Dwarf. Dex is negligible because I don't use proccing weapons but if I did I would still have the ability to get higher dex simply because it's that much easier to max out my STR.

[Galanteer]

Oh, and in a similar vein to the OP's point...

I remember reading on The Steel Warrior at some point around Luclin/PoP era (give or take?) that dumping all points into CHA was a good idea for warriors because very little warrior raid gear had CHA on it until (I think) PoT or maybe even CoA. Apparently the CHA of the target affects weather Divine Intervention fires or not. This also gives high CHA race warriors like Wood Elves and Half Elves a leg up on the traditional Ogre main tank in some situations, basicly trading off frontal stun immunity for reliable DI, from what they were saying.

As I recall, DI is a kunark spell, so that could directly impact a lot of warriors here, no? I started raiding in Luclin content, so I have no idea, but I'm thinking of ultimately going with a warrior main, so this has been nagging at me a bit.

Anyone heard of this?

Yea in PoP (and later) my guild had a wood elf warrior who put his points into charisma -worked quite well.

[usedtobejubaloftorv]

There's another benefit to maxing STA on character creation - you die significantly less often because you have more HP to last until after the opponent is dead.

I made a halfling (for the extra STA) druid with all points put into STA, so starting STA 110 and starting WIS 95(!)

The druid is now level 40 and already has 179 WIS. Should I end up taking this druid to the endgame it will be significantly more durable - most importantly for raids - than any other druid around, excepting only those who did the same thing. Later on when much of raiding requires surviving AOE damage, this toon will still be alive to heal and nuke when others of the same class, who chose the WIS route instead on creation, will already have fallen.

I played a high elf cleric for years that I'd started off as max WIS, and for most of my raiding experience I definitely did regret the lack of stamina, it made survival and success more difficult than it needed to be.

Depending on your class there are other benefits to max STA as well. For example, my druid's DS is that much more effective since I can absorb more hits. Regen can do more healing on average, with more HP to heal. When I get heal aggro, I'm much less likely to go down before someone can taunt off.

I am 100% convinced that in terms of the time investment I have saved already a great deal of time by going STA instead of WIS. Mana, after all, will always regen at the same rate with any given set of buffs, whether your WIS is 100 or 200, and until it come time to raid the size of your mana pool doesn't really matter a whole lot.

[pickled_heretic]

The druid is now level 40 and already has 179 WIS. Should I end up taking this druid to the endgame it will be significantly more durable

no it won't. it'll have maybe 100 more hp. and when raid targets are quadding for 800 (lookin at you OoA) if you are getting attacked you're already dead, doesn't matter how many hp you have as a druid.

[Flash]

I went STA simply because it seems to be the hardest stat to max without sacrificing other key stats.

[Diggles]

On which one of your characters? (badumtish)

[Flash]

On which one of your characters? (badumtish)

Keep it up, I'm *this* close to reporting you for harrassment.

[mitic]

depends what class u are playin...

as a mele with procbuffs or procweaps in game i tend to go full dex with starting stats

[Diggles]

Keep it up, I'm *this* close to reporting you for harrassment.

oh no, i'm scared please don't lets be friends

[pickled_heretic]

depends what class u are playin...

as a mele with procbuffs or procweaps in game i tend to go full dex with starting stats

[Flash]

Dex is an easy one to raise through equipment though. And you can always hit up a Shaman for a Dex buff.

[usedtobejubaloftorv]

no it won't. it'll have maybe 100 more hp. and when raid targets are quadding for 800 (lookin at you OoA) if you are getting attacked you're already dead, doesn't matter how many hp you have as a druid.

It's not to tank with. Believe it or not HP helps in lots of raids for anyone - more than anything else you can get with those starting points, anyway, regardless of class.

[Motec]

Better to be alive doing 60 dps than dead after doing 62.

[Aenor]

FINAL RULING PLS:

I rolled an Ogre war on red and put everything in Dex... do I need to reroll w/ sta?

[fischsemmel]

bump for noobs

Your post is all well and good for any player who intends to HEAVILY twink their character and for any player who intends to do a fair amount of raiding (or more) at high levels.

But for the average "noob" who comes to the server, putting points in stamina is more likely to get them frustrated with their character as they die to a moss snake than it is to help them in the long run.

[webrunner5]

All this discussion is well and good about Sta and Dex. But I have played every class on here, several times on some lol, and unless you are hell bent on raiding end game the best stat is Strength for most classes.

Because if you solo or group not being able to wear all your Plate gear as a Melee type or being able as a Necro to carry crap weapons for your pet, and not being able to loot even crap gear to sell for copper sucks totally

Looting is the only way you can make plat in this game and not being able to carry 3 Bear hides and a few Fine Steel weapons around for a bit until you find a vender blows. Imagine going to City of Mist with all the great gear there as a Enchanter with 75 Strength and looting for hours on end to buy new spells with the loot. Good luck with that happing with putiing all your stats in Sta and Int.

There is not too much good Strength geat for Casters in this game. And unless you choose a Large race for Melee classes most suck at base strength also.

I always put some stats in Sta also but most in strength and some in wis and int for casters. Being emcumbered just totaly sucks. And the average person on here is never going to be able to afford 4 100% Weight Reduction bags. Ain't happining.

[falkun]

FINAL RULING PLS:

I rolled an Ogre war on red and put everything in Dex... do I need to reroll w/ sta?

Depends on what you want to do. Dex will noticeably increase the amount of procs you get with weapons, allowing you to tank (PVE, maybe PVP depending on the proc) more effectively. As an ogre, you already have a very high starting STA, so it is easy to cap out with gear and buffs, while DEX is much more difficult to max with buffs. Now, if you plan on being unbuffed during PVP, the additional STA may help you more than one or two extra procs (if you even have a proccing weapon).

Basically:
DEX if you want to tank (PVE warrior role), and use proc weapons.
STA if you plan on being unbuffed for much of your time playing (PVP?) or you do not plan on raid tanking (PVE).

[Grozmok]

This is actually really sound advice. Looking back, I should have spent my points differently.

[Daldaen]

Glad I spent all mine into Wis on my druid. Dirty half-elves.

[Autotune]

Erudite necro, i put all my points into wisdom. I am the #1 necro on the server.


Starting stats mean jack, l2p.

[Motec]

why give a shit about start points? Means sweet f*ck all.

Endgame tank? Max cha. Otherwise nothing matters on any class or race.

[falkun]

Endgame tank? Max cha.

And the only ones who will disagree with you don't understand the mechanics of why they are wrong.

[Bruman]

Yeah, you're not going to gimp your toon. When you're at raid level, the difference will be so small, it won't matter.

And why does everything have to be all dumped into one stat? Quit trying to overly min/max the game. You won't be successful. Spread it out for what you'll find useful until you start getting good droppable/raid gear.

[Nirgon]

Smart people make an "ez" char first, then twink something more item dependent later. How's that for "starting stats".

Starting stats for me would be -> roll high elf cleric with max wis then sta -> twink an Iksar monk or Ogre warrior.

[Grozmok]

If starting stats aren't important then delete this thread and let's move on with or lives.

:rolleyes: