Yes another swarm kite post

[Boilon]

So... today I witnessed a bard (54) swarm kiting in City of Mist with mobs that included the upper levels and likely everything from moat and in between. He would swarm kite around the arena when there was another few people fighting the goo's in the side houses and possibly the inside arena mobs. Not only this but he had a black reaver in his kite (which I guess didn't get damaged by the Magic dot so it didn't cause him to summon, although honestly would be a bit funny to see this happen).

Over the past 2 hours he has died once or twice, and then this just causes a dispersion of mobs all over the place. Also after a finished kite the black reaver was left and then was left to zone and agro on to others. So at what point is this considered a zone disruption in terms of PnP and or otherwise unscrupulous behaviour?

Looking for an honest answer about this sort of stuff. I honestly have generally 0 problem with this in an outdoor zone or less used areas, but city of mist at around this time, i have NEVER seen this before in City of Mist but maybe I do not spend enough time here. At what point is it allowed to take mobs off his train because he is monopolizing a lot of the mobs for people 50+ .

I heard that there was a GM comment or something relating to bard trains and that it was okay to take mobs off their trains to kill despite them having the 'FTE'. Any possible serious replies to what can/should be done in this situation would be great! As much as I want to call the bard out by name, I don't know if that would devolve this in to an RnF , but I ended up logging my monk because i was like fuck it im not dealing with this.

[Expediency]

People who swarm or duo very common PUG spots are jerks. There are a limited amount of zones where nonsoloing classes can log on and expect to find pick up groups (ex MM, CoM, KC) and I have no sympathy for anyone who monopolizes camps solo or duo in these zones when there are dozens of other places they could be doing that.

[Swish]

It's one of those rules that changed over time. Amelinda used to stop people sweeping the zone clean for kiting purposes but I don't think it's quite the same now.

I'd have the petition ready in a macro for the moment he dies/trains people...and fraps footage is always a bonus.

[Boilon]

Well I was looking more for a solution of what to do in the case of this happening in a relatively hot spot area in a somewhat peak time (this was about an hour or so ago). I seem to recall a case where a bard was swarm kiting in Unrest like a year or two ago and a CSR saying that it was OKAY to take mobs off their kite. So I am wondering is it then okay to take mobs off of their CoM kite...

There was very limited mobs left up on the upper walls in CoM and it got to the point where I just logged because between me and my duo partner there just wasn't enough to kill at all (when normally I am able to share this with multiple other solo or duoers).

[applesauce25r624]

sounds pretty classic to me

[Swish]

Probably is, particularly as the timeline went on... they cut back more and more on staff hours.

I'd petition it if he's disrupting the zone, particularly if it involves zoning black reavers who are going to path to some difficult place involving treading on arena or moat groups.

[Boilon]

Probably is, particularly as the timeline went on...

Probably is what sorry? That it's okay to take mobs off a bard kite?

[Pokesan]

You are always responsible for your pulls. So if his pull gets anyone killed, they can petition and he'll have to level another bard to 54 during his 1 week suspension.

[iruinedyourday]

Consider RED... or:

http://i.imgur.com/jGrA8cJ.gif

[Swish]

Probably is what sorry? That it's okay to take mobs off a bard kite?

Probably is classic with Verant/SOEs customer service the way it was... or more likely, classic on some servers, and not classic on others :p

Typically people on dial up didn't do what bards did in 2000ish though, surely?

[iruinedyourday]

Probably is classic with Verant/SOEs customer service the way it was... or more likely, classic on some servers, and not classic on others :p

Typically people on dial up didn't do what bards did in 2000ish though, surely?

back then people weren't even smart or good enough to charm with enchanter hehe so i doubt it was done often back then, not necessarily becuse of dial up internet though.

[MiRo2]

So at what point is this considered a zone disruption in terms of PnP and or otherwise unscrupulous behaviour?

Not to mention that many people were having odd lag spikes (no change in latency or %s, but crippling lag) that were going on the entire time he was there. They were also very cyclic(~30 minutes), almost as if they were coinciding with his kills/pulls/kites; and stopped completely when he stopped doing it after you and another shamed him publicly for this behavior.

[quido]

Kill the mobs if you don't like where they are.

[Boilon]

Kill the mobs if you don't like where they are.

Okay and my question is am I going to get reprimanded for doing this in the future? In this situation.

[Jauna]

If I remember right, bard song damage was nerfed mid kunark to where it does zero damage if the target is moving. It is still like that on live even now.

But I am too lazy to look up proof because my main is a bard and it might not even be true

[Jauna]

Looking up on ZAM, seems all the PBAoE songs do no damage if the target is moving.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=730

And all the single target DoT songs do damage to targets when they are moving, but at the reduced moving penalty or whatever its called:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=707

Now if I only had the willpower or reason to look up when the changes took place. But until then back to Burned Woods making people feel awkward as I cherry pick all the good mobs and invite the people who ask and not get all mad at me

[Champion_Standing]

I'd have the petition ready in a macro for the moment he dies/trains people...and fraps footage is always a bonus.

Swish ur still a pro

[Lunababy]

You are always responsible for your pulls. So if his pull gets anyone killed, they can petition and he'll have to level another bard to 54 during his 1 week suspension.

dat underlying reference to bard leveling speed, tho

[MiRo2]

Now if I only had the willpower or reason to look up when the changes took place. But until then back to Burned Woods making people feel awkward as I cherry pick all the good mobs and invite the people who ask and not get all mad at me

I did, and it wasn't until 2008:

2008-07-09 02:52 Changed Slot 1 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 22 (L80) per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 22 (L80) per tick if target is not moving"

[Pokesan]

that's a description not a mechanics change

my good chum

[Psionide]

This is nonsense. What bards make it past 52?

[MiRo2]

that's a description not a mechanics change

my good chum

I pulled it directly from the change log. Here are some more of the lines:

Changed Slot 1 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 17 (L60) per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 18 (L65) per tick"

Changed Slot 1 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 18 (L65) per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 19 (L70) per tick"

Changed Slot 1 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 19 (L70) per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 20 (L75) per tick"

Changed Slot 1 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 20 (L75) per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 2 (L2) to 22 (L80) per tick"

[Pokesan]

yes, those are some more descriptions. well done!

[MiRo2]

yes, those are some more descriptions. well done!

touche

2004 it is then:

Bard PBAoE spells will no longer damage targets that are moving, however any other spell effects from the PBAoE spell will still be applied to the targets as usual.

[Jauna]

Swarm kiting confirmed classic, haters are not able to hate.

[jcr4990]

So... today I witnessed a bard (54) swarm kiting in City of Mist with mobs that included the upper levels and likely everything from moat and in between. He would swarm kite around the arena when there was another few people fighting the goo's in the side houses and possibly the inside arena mobs. Not only this but he had a black reaver in his kite (which I guess didn't get damaged by the Magic dot so it didn't cause him to summon, although honestly would be a bit funny to see this happen).

Over the past 2 hours he has died once or twice, and then this just causes a dispersion of mobs all over the place. Also after a finished kite the black reaver was left and then was left to zone and agro on to others. So at what point is this considered a zone disruption in terms of PnP and or otherwise unscrupulous behaviour?

Looking for an honest answer about this sort of stuff. I honestly have generally 0 problem with this in an outdoor zone or less used areas, but city of mist at around this time, i have NEVER seen this before in City of Mist but maybe I do not spend enough time here. At what point is it allowed to take mobs off his train because he is monopolizing a lot of the mobs for people 50+ .

I heard that there was a GM comment or something relating to bard trains and that it was okay to take mobs off their trains to kill despite them having the 'FTE'. Any possible serious replies to what can/should be done in this situation would be great! As much as I want to call the bard out by name, I don't know if that would devolve this in to an RnF , but I ended up logging my monk because i was like fuck it im not dealing with this.Dunno if it was mentioned but pretty sure Sirken ruled that if somebody is kiting more than 4 mobs at a time in a contested area like that you can pull *singles* off their kite. It does sound like that qualifies for zone disruption and is reportable but you might not get a GM response quickly enough for it to matter. I'd just pull mobs off him.

[Aalderon Crystafire]

Yes! The GM/Guide policy here is that you cannot do more than a quad-kite and 'hold claim' to those mobs - anything more than 4 mobs opens them up to fair game.

[ebilsoldier]

Be careful of pulling singles from a bard pull, you will social agro most of their train if they were to die or zone out. At least this has been my experience.

[Troxx]

Swarm kiting dotting was nerfed sometime after legacy of ykesha. I remember my college roommate doing it in Nadox while grinding aa.

Few people did it back then. I did it before Luclin, but never more than 7-8 mobs due to lag and wimpy graphics cards.

Petition the bard the next time his reckless behavior results in any sort of train, whether by him dying and his wandering mobs path back or him having to zone off a Reaver (should it aggro anyone while patching back).

[elwing]

I remember that awful change:
Originally Posted by http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20040914.html
Bard PBAoE spells will no longer damage targets that are moving, however any other spell effects from the PBAoE spell will still be applied to the targets as usual.

I wasn't kiting then due to too bad connection... but this affected me, at 54 I was not able to kill spiderling in the newbie zone using my AE song due to this change... that was quite insulting and horrible. the mobs would get hit once, then run and be immune to the ae...

I was ok with the need to fix kiting, but I was shocked by the solution... some other AE have a limited number of target and diminishing returns after, why not something similar for bards?

[Nixtar]

And bards wonder why so many people hate them.

PRO TIP: When you act like a colossal douche to an entire zone, guess what? People will have an issue with you. If you want to level up on being a complete asshole, do like this bard, and go to a zone which often have lots of groups of people competing for mobs and ruin their day. Works every time, people will despise you in no-time!

Same thing applies to those friendly PLing bards(or PLers in general) picking popular zones
as their playground.

Or you can simply try not be a jerk but apparently that's asking too much from certain people.

[Menden]

What I like to do is if player A has more than 4 mobs on them, and Player B pulls a single off. I would rule in the favor of player B. If I see a bard swarm kiting and I notice lag in the zone, I ask them to knock their numbers down. I'll check back and if they are still kiting larger numbers, I tell them to leave the zone.

You are responsible for your kite, if your kite kills someone, then we have a problem. It's reckless behavior and disrupts people's fun. You're lucky, I wanted to cause people to go LD, and let them die after a warning, but Senior Guides told me no. :( :( :(

Swarm kite all you want, just don't do anything to disrupt other players, it's simple as that. I don't want to see any swarms coming remotely close to another player's camp(looking at you DL wall). You are all over the place, it is your responsibility to have control of your mobs. I'm tired of the "well they shouldn't have gotten in the way".

It all falls under fair play and frankly, just don't be a douche. In the example of City of Mist, I would have told the bard to leave the zone.

[iruinedyourday]

What I like to do is if player A has more than 4 mobs on them, and Player B pulls a single off. I would rule in the favor of player B. If I see a bard swarm kiting and I notice lag in the zone, I ask them to knock their numbers down. I'll check back and if they are still kiting larger numbers, I tell them to leave the zone.

You are responsible for your kite, if your kite kills someone, then we have a problem. It's reckless behavior and disrupts people's fun. You're lucky, I wanted to cause people to go LD, and let them die after a warning, but Senior Guides told me no. :( :( :(

Swarm kite all you want, just don't do anything to disrupt other players, it's simple as that. I don't want to see any swarms coming remotely close to another player's camp(looking at you DL wall). You are all over the place, it is your responsibility to have control of your mobs. I'm tired of the "well they shouldn't have gotten in the way".

It all falls under fair play and frankly, just don't be a douche. In the example of City of Mist, I would have told the bard to leave the zone.

This post brought to you by.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daG-0KkirDI&feature=youtu.be&t=25)

[NarcolepticLTD]

man-sized protection in just a few strokes

[Dolalin]

Well, just to add some authenticity to this post, versus the unsubstantiated rant fest that has been going on, I met the bard in question last night while grouped at arena, and he invited our entire group for his PBAoE pull. All of us, 40ish, got a yellow in our prospective levels, and the bard was a really nice guy. He trained no one. I think this thread has been blown pretty far out of proportion. Most bards aren't arseholes. Let's keep it real.

[MiRo2]

I met the bard in question last night while grouped at arena, and he invited our entire group for his PBAoE pull. All of us, 40ish, got a yellow in our prospective levels, and the bard was a really nice guy. He trained no one. I think this thread has been blown pretty far out of proportion. Most bards aren't arseholes. Let's keep it real.

Intent versus impact. He was doing the same the other night, inviting lower people in for a pull and letting shamans loot pages off his mobs, while simultaneously taking mobs from the higher level groups, and creating crippling lag for half the people in the zone. Its still zone disruption, I'm sure there were more than 6 people in the zone when he did this for your group.

[Swish]

Well, just to add some authenticity to this post, versus the unsubstantiated rant fest that has been going on, I met the bard in question last night while grouped at arena, and he invited our entire group for his PBAoE pull. All of us, 40ish, got a yellow in our prospective levels, and the bard was a really nice guy. He trained no one. I think this thread has been blown pretty far out of proportion. Most bards aren't arseholes. Let's keep it real.

Have you seen the PL'ing ones in OT? Well...

[iruinedyourday]

letting shamans loot pages off his mobs.

Lmao. "I'm gonna loot everyone of these corpses and delete the thousands of lbs of copper & silver and while I'm doing that I'll delete all the pages, JUST SO YOU CANT HAVE EM!"

Lmao lets be real you don't let shamans loot bard kites, they just do /shrug

[Bionic]

Some Bard was swarming orcs in Oasis the other day while there was a grp at Orc hwy and I was soloing orcs off to the side on an alt. He was starving both of us out. So I kindly reminded everyone in /ooc that it was perfectly legal to pull singles off of a kite of more than 4 mobs.

Bard wasn't happy with me but it made me laugh and who doesn't like seeing scummy Bards get their parades rained on? He left after 2 more pull attempts and everyone rejoiced.

First time you did that to me I would have just zoned and let you have ALL of the mobs. You're lucky he was willing to be respectable, even though you weren't.

Don't get me wrong here, if there are groups present the bard should really limit his kite to allow there to be enough mobs for the others to exp off of, but if you look for opportunities come in and take mobs that any bard has rightfully pulled and AoE'd down, simply because he has more than 4, you're a scumbag.

[Pokesan]

First time you did that to me I would have just zoned and let you have ALL of the mobs. You're lucky he was willing to be respectable, even though you weren't.

Don't get me wrong here, if there are groups present the bard should really limit his kite to allow there to be enough mobs for the others to exp off of, but if you look for opportunities come in and take mobs that any bard has rightfully pulled and AoE'd down, simply because he has more than 4, you're a scumbag.

This would get you suspended, tough guy.

[Spenny121]

Dont see how he would get suspended. He could have had to zone for different reasons (RL shit coming up) and the mobs would social aggro back to the groups who decided to take mobs off him. It's their own fault at that point for trusting the bard to not die or have something come up.

Granted the bard is also a douche for doing it, but you know, you could have also just talked to him and asked him to not do it there instead of trying to start a war between the zone and him. Normally you'll get better results... then again, this is elf sim, the land of the socially awkward neckbeards with no experience talking to people.

[Pokesan]

Has to be, otherwise bards can legally train anyone who pulls off them.

[Bionic]

Has to be, otherwise bards can legally train anyone who pulls off them.

:)

Good luck proving that there was any nefarious intent that you could positively ascribe to one's act of zoning. There are plenty of reasons that one might need to zone at any given moment. I've seen bards zone when they got a caster mob in their kite.

In the end, if you are going to pull mobs from bards, you had better realize that you could have agro from the entire train and that one lag spike could mean they are now coming for you.

You going to /petition because a bard died?

[Pokesan]

:)



QED

[Pokesan]

If you wish to prove this in elf court, I advise you to eat the death rather than zoning out, as the latter could suggest malice. You're a bard and will get the exp back much faster than the person who 'stole' your mob(s).

[Bionic]

Burden of proof in any court is on the plaintiff, ie: the petitioner.

The petitioner would have to persuade the GM that the bard:

* knew they had taken some of the kite mobs
* were upset about it
* and knew by dying / zoning it would cause an exp death on the petitioning party.

Only thing the Bard would have to do is be calm and courteous while the GM dealt with you raging on the other end of the petition.

How do you think that'd go? Yup...

[MiRo2]

The petitioner would have to persuade the GM that the bard:

* was disrupting the zone for other people
* was disrupting the zone for other people
* was disrupting the zone for other people


Fixed to match up with PNP.

[Pokesan]

Burden of proof in any court is on the plaintiff, ie: the petitioner.

The petitioner would have to persuade the GM that the bard:

* knew they had taken some of the kite mobs
* were upset about it
* and knew by dying / zoning it would cause an exp death on the petitioning party.

Only thing the Bard would have to do is be calm and courteous while the GM dealt with you raging on the other end of the petition.

How do you think that'd go? Yup...

We are in agreement. You have arrived where I was leading you. :)

PSA to all bards - if someone steals mobs off your pull, you are under no obligation to save them from the train they chose to gain social agro on. Die or zone to remind them whos boss.

God bless you all.

[Boilon]

I wasn't expecting my thread to still continue. But, I am glad to hear a response from some CSR over this, that is helpful. I haven't been online lately but my monk is still camped in CoM lol. If I see this again I will gladly pull a mob off, and I guess once I get it back to my camp I can easily flop off any remaining social agro.

[Troxx]

Burden of proof in any court is on the plaintiff, ie: the petitioner.

The petitioner would have to persuade the GM that the bard:

* knew they had taken some of the kite mobs
* were upset about it
* and knew by dying / zoning it would cause an exp death on the petitioning party.

Only thing the Bard would have to do is be calm and courteous while the GM dealt with you raging on the other end of the petition.

How do you think that'd go? Yup...

No.

People are responsible for the mobs they pull. For bards, this means they are responsible for what mobs do after the bard no longer has aggro (either via zoning or death). If they pull a swarm of mobs and die/zone, they are responsible for the havoc the mobs they pulled wreck on anyone/everyone who gets killed due to their irresponsible pulling practices. Even if you legitimately die due to messing up your kite, you're responsible for what the mobs you failed to kill did after you die. This is especially true in zones/places where lots of other people hunt like CoM.

If you plead the case that it was an accident and it's only happened once, you might get off with a warning. Keep it up and you'll be suspended. If the GM/guide suspects you did it intentionally, don't be surprised when you get banned.

[Bionic]

Fixed to match up with PNP.

People like you make me sick.