a few unofficial rules for ip exemption

[rioisk]

I thought I would start a thread after what I experienced today so that anybody playing with an IP exemption could know the unofficial rules governing GM decision-making on this server so that nobody unwitting falls into the same situation as we did today. I realize this will be met with ridicule but nonetheless I think it's important for people to know the scoop so the tragedy doesn't happen to any other groups of people.

Official Rules regarding boxing:

Multi-boxing is not allowed. Players are only allowed to play one client per RL person. We will be enforcing this rule and we ask for everyone’s co-operation to just abide by our wishes. Breaking this rule will result in a ban.

My experience

My bro and I have an IP exemption. He doesn't have much time to level up so I say to him "Hey, I'll level you up" so he logs in and goes afk grouped with me while I kill shit in at the docks in butcherblock. While doing so I get ported out into the ocean, was weird, but chugged it up to a bug. Ten minutes later I am disconnected, try to log back in only to find myself banned. I petition, Uthgaard had this to say:

The song is "Same old song and dance". Because that's what this is. I've seen these setups around before. You knew you were operating something shady, and thought that you were riding some sort of gray area.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that because you could park it out of view, that you're somehow entitled to a greater advantage than if you were running both around actively 2boxing the account. You know you were 2boxing, and coming here telling the same old story we've all heard before, is really just insulting to our intelligence.

Everyone else can already see the thread. If one of them feels like responding to you, they can.

Here are the facts:
1) The rules as stated is 1 person per client. This rule was satisfied as I was only playing my character. Nobody was playing his. He logged in, left to go do other shit.

2) We were banned without any tells indicating suspicion. Had he ported us to some zone and asked us to perform crazy synchronized actions then we'd pass with flying colors.

Conclusion
So I thought I'd start a thread to let others know that if you have an IP exemption that there is an unofficial set of rules. Most specifically is if you have an IP exemption that nobody can go afk, ever. If you do it's immediate indication of guilt and will result in a ban without question.


As a side note, I found this humorous to read after this experience:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23121&page=2
Talk about Nazi..
Gives me a good idea of what their GM behavior will be like.



Arguments presented by replies:

How was your setup functionally different from 2-boxing?
How is a friend from halfway across the world going afk while you get him experience functionally different from 2-boxing? Answer: You aren't him.

Answer here: I'm not my bro.

Had we been tested this would have been apparent. Instead, a ban was issued without question.

Perhaps I should present a broader scenario here. Two people aren't on the same connection in a similar configuration - a guy could just as easily rig a computer at work or a friends house and set the character afk. Would he be instantly banned for boxing? No, he doesn't even have an IP exemption. He's just some dude and "another dude afk". So is going afk while another person gets you experience against the rules? For this to be consistent it must be.

How long was your brother AFK for?
Does it matter? One person, one client. That being said, he was doing other shit on his computer/watching tv/taking a shower/etc.

In the senario you have discribed, you where 2 boxing. One person was playing for the benefit of 2 chars using one IP. This is forbidden.

A higher duty of care exisits for those who have been granted an exemption.

So in your analysis illegal boxing is defined as "one person playing for the benefit of 2 chars using one IP".

So it's not illegal if it's different IPs? That doesn't prevent people from just running a char afk on their neighbors computer since that would be different IPs.

No matter what scenario you present there are ways around it. Even the one-client IP rule is able to be circumvented if you know how it works. That being said, we followed the rules, one client per person. Had this been investigated more thoroughly that would have become obvious.

I really feel for you, but what are the GM's to do? To them, it looks like you are 2boxing. I'm sure that every person they confront about the issue will make up a story about how they aren't 2boxing. Also, if I were power-leveling a character on another computer, and a GM makes me operate both characters as a test, couldn't I just just have a random person in the room run the character around? It is a very rare act of kindness for a person to level up another persons character for them while they are afk, on the same ip address. You might just be a really nice brother, but you are a really nice brother who looks like he is 2boxing.

So guilt is assumed based on circumstantial evidence? Not everybody plays this game out solely to better only themselves. Bro can't find group, needed a few levels, why not help him out? The situation would look a lot different if people focused on the whole situation instead of stuff that "appears" incriminating. For example, bible-lovers often misquote Darwin because "some" of his words support their view, while others totally oppose it. If you choose to see the situation as such and ignore all other facts then obvious it will be whatever you want it to be. See http://www.aquaticape.org/darwin.html

[thefloydian]

tragedy

:D

[Dr4z3r]

How was your setup functionally different from 2-boxing?

[SlankyLanky]

yea...that there is 2 boxin'

[rioisk]

How was your setup functionally different from 2-boxing?

How is a friend from halfway across the world going afk while you get him experience functionally different from 2-boxing? Answer: You aren't him.

Answer here: I'm not my bro.

Had we been tested this would have been apparent. Instead, a ban was issued without question.


Perhaps I should present a broader scenario here. Two people aren't on the same connection in a similar configuration - a guy could just as easily rig a computer at work or a friends house and set the character afk. Would he be instantly banned for boxing? No, he doesn't even have an IP exemption. He's just some dude and "another dude afk". So is going afk while another person gets you experience against the rules? For this to be consistent it must be.

[baxle]

Not to land on one side or the other of this because I have no reason to believe this dude's story, but I think that if there is no problem with it from two different houses, there's no problem with it from one. It does sound like you are actually limited in some respects while under an ip exemption, which I suppose is for the better.

[rioisk]

Not to land on one side or the other of this because I have no reason to believe this dude's story, but I think that if there is no problem with it from two different houses, there's no problem with it from one. It does sound like you are actually limited in some respects while under an ip exemption, which I suppose is for the better.

exactly my point as I indicated above in my scenario. If it's not illegal for two different houses, but is for one, this information should be apart of the rules if you have an ip exemption.

On a further note, I've noticed people here are very quickly to jump to conclusions when it comes to the issue of boxing. Please remember there are many legitimate people here who play together under IP exemptions. With a degree in CS, if I was going to box I could bypass the 1 IP rule. Instead my bro and I followed the proper channels and waited for an exemption. This was many months ago and we have been playing together fine for this time.

When people who follow legitimate channels are treated like criminals before any sort of investigation you know the system has problems.

[Mojorisin]

I really feel for you, but what are the GM's to do? To them, it looks like you are 2boxing. I'm sure that every person they confront about the issue will make up a story about how they aren't 2boxing. Also, if I were power-leveling a character on another computer, and a GM makes me operate both characters as a test, couldn't I just just have a random person in the room run the character around? It is a very rare act of kindness for a person to level up another persons character for them while they are afk, on the same ip address. You might just be a really nice brother, but you are a really nice brother who looks like he is 2boxing.

[DOPE]

What you were doing is 2boxing.. Simple.
Why break the rules if you're not willing to accept the consequences?
& why should the rules be amended? Because you were caught?
Fuckkk offffff!

[Fromage]

How long was your brother AFK for?

[xshayla701]

The story is likely to have been heard by the GMs multiple time when they go for that #ban hotkey, but IF this is really what happened...I have to agree that this is a confusing situation. You weren't playing the other character or had any idea it was considered two-boxing. Maybe a warning would have been a better(kinder?) move by the GM but regardless it's their rules and their judgment, and this might just make matters worse. "One client per RL person", in my opinion you would be OK. But if you weren't operating the character, since it was on another computer on the other side of the room/house, is it considered two-boxing? In some opinions it is essentially the same as someone next door to you putting the char AFK.

To play devil's advocate (or this GM's side), if you had two clients up on one box (one computer) and were only "operating" one character, that IS, without question, boxing. Is this the same? Where is the line/what do they mean by "operating"?

If your characters are important to you, maybe from here on err on the safe side. Two chars under the same IP not being actively played by two RL people is pretty sketchy anyway. Good luck to you.

[Kassel]

In the senario you have discribed, you where 2 boxing. One person was playing for the benefit of 2 chars using one IP. This is forbidden.

A higher duty of care exisits for those who have been granted an exemption.

[rioisk]

In the senario you have discribed, you where 2 boxing. One person was playing for the benefit of 2 chars using one IP. This is forbidden.

A higher duty of care exisits for those who have been granted an exemption.

So in your analysis illegal boxing is defined as "one person playing for the benefit of 2 chars using one IP".

So it's not illegal if it's different IPs? That doesn't prevent people from just running a char afk on their neighbors computer since that would be different IPs.

No matter what scenario you present there are ways around it. Even the one-client IP rule is able to be circumvented if you know how it works. That being said, we followed the rules, one client per person. Had this been investigated more thoroughly that would have become obvious.

[YendorLootmonkey]

It's all about perception.

Multi-boxing is not allowed on the server. However, understanding that there exist situations where people who live together want to play EQ from the same IP, the devs/GMs have allowed exemptions. Of these exemptions, you were given one. You don't have to prove anything to get one other than request one and be patient with your request.

Having said that, there exists a certain subset of people who have illicitly requested IP exemptions for the purpose of multi-boxing. Devs/GMs have said very clearly that those who are found doing this will be banned.

So, it would stand to reason that if you have requested an IP exemption, you need to make damn well sure you do not appear IN ANY WAY to be multi-boxing. You never answered how long your brother was AFK for. I would assume a few minutes for a bio break is fine. But where do you draw the line? AFK for 5 mins? 30 mins? 4 hours? A week?

How is this situation any different than someone who is multi-boxing and logging in their character on two computers from the same IP, leaving one AFK to leech XP? It appears the same to the devs/GMs who are out looking for that sort of stuff. They query the database for multiple player IDs logged in from the same IP. They can probably tell that one player ID has been idle for X minutes, where X > some standard time amount that warrants an investigation. They come check it out. They see that you're grouped up, and one guy isn't moving, the other guy is. Surprise, what does that look like?

Bottom line: if you have an IP exemption, don't do shit that could be perceived as multi-boxing. Because you won't be able to prove otherwise, and your story is going to inevitably sound like the story of any person that has been caught multi-boxing.

[rioisk]

It's all about perception.

Multi-boxing is not allowed on the server. However, understanding that there exist situations where people who live together want to play EQ from the same IP, the devs/GMs have allowed exemptions. Of these exemptions, you were given one. You don't have to prove anything to get one other than request one and be patient with your request.

Having said that, there exists a certain subset of people who have illicitly requested IP exemptions for the purpose of multi-boxing. Devs/GMs have said very clearly that those who are found doing this will be banned.

So, it would stand to reason that if you have requested an IP exemption, you need to make damn well sure you do not appear IN ANY WAY to be multi-boxing. You never answered how long your brother was AFK for. I would assume a few minutes for a bio break is fine. But where do you draw the line? AFK for 5 mins? 30 mins? 4 hours? A week?

How is this situation any different than someone who is multi-boxing and logging in their character on two computers from the same IP, leaving one AFK to leech XP? It appears the same to the devs/GMs who are out looking for that sort of stuff. They query the database for multiple player IDs logged in from the same IP. They can probably tell that one player ID has been idle for X minutes, where X > some standard time amount that warrants an investigation. They come check it out. They see that you're grouped up, and one guy isn't moving, the other guy is. Surprise, what does that look like?

Bottom line: if you have an IP exemption, don't do shit that could be perceived as multi-boxing. Because you won't be able to prove otherwise, and your story is going to inevitably sound like the story of any person that has been caught multi-boxing.

Here-in lies the reason for my post. People should know more than just the obvious "one client per person" rule if they get an exemption. They should get a list of things that they aren't allowed to do without risk of being flagged as 2 boxing. For instance, while autofollowing for normal people isn't thought twice about, if you autofollow with an IP exemption you could get flagged. Repeat again, these sort of things are not obvious. Why should I suspect that because we have an IP exemption that /autofollow would flag us, even if used for legitimate purposes. I feel like only paranoid people who are trying to break the boxing rule would consider all these things.

While the GMs try to make it out to be a black and white issue at their judgment, it's not for players, since only one of these actions could result in an immediate ban. This is a heavy price, so players should know the specifics. Thus, I am proposing people receive IP exemption receive a list of things that they aren't allowed to do together to rule out some possibilities of boxing.



Actually YendorLootMonkey, you do. I posted pictures of my bro and I, our computers, etc.

[baxle]

I think kassel has it right. I was thinking about it some more and it seems that the implicit rule is that if it's possible for you to do it by yourself, you probably shouldn't.

[TJHooker]

Only Bob can multibox.

[mitic]

2) We were banned without any tells indicating suspicion. Had he ported us to some zone and asked us to perform crazy synchronized actions then....

this

[Tisroc]

My wife and I both play and I tend to be paranoid about not wanting to be accused of multi boxing. I won't let my wife put me on follow when we are running somewhere etc, but someone who doesn't have an ip exemption could easily follow another without worry. I think it's just the price you pay for being given the opportunity.

There are times one of us might afk some to deal with children or work on dinner while the other holds down the camp. I think we just have to use discretion. Would the GMs ban you for a 7 min afk during which the other person kept killing? I don't really know

Someone likely reported you so whatever you were doing had to be blatant enough that it was reasonably suspicious.

[Vangorr_WAR]

exactly my point as I indicated above in my scenario. If it's not illegal for two different houses, but is for one, this information should be apart of the rules if you have an ip exemption.

On a further note, I've noticed people here are very quickly to jump to conclusions when it comes to the issue of boxing. Please remember there are many legitimate people here who play together under IP exemptions. With a degree in CS, if I was going to box I could bypass the 1 IP rule. Instead my bro and I followed the proper channels and waited for an exemption. This was many months ago and we have been playing together fine for this time.

When people who follow legitimate channels are treated like criminals before any sort of investigation you know the system has problems.


Then why don't you just bypass the ban then Mr. CS Degree that could just break the rules whenever he wanted , Quite your bitching. I bet you were two boxing No gm just bans you without any sort of evidence. IM sure he observed your stupid ass for 20 + mins. I call bull shit.

[azeth]

If your story is true, this definitely is not against the rules.

[bman8810]

Having never posted here before and thus having an unbiased view, I would just like to say that most of you posting "obviously 2 boxing," or some variation of it, should try actually putting forth facts as to why it IS 2 boxing. Seems pretty clear to me that that is not 2 boxing... However, as my uncle always said, there are three sides to every story. His side, their side and the truth.

[Omnimorph]

Yeah, but unfortunately with this, it becomes a situation where people will 2 box, and when someone calls them on it, they can just get someone else in their house to play the other toon to prove they aren't 2 boxing.

It should be very simple, If you have an exemption, then it's in your interest to make sure it doesn't appear that you're boxing. Because anyone can get an exemption, 2 box until someone reports them, and say "err yeah, my wife was afk feeding the cat to the baby and knitting."

I'd like to think the gm's aren't just random canons running around and seeing 2 people from the same ip grouped with 1 person sitting still and the other killing and saying "2 BOXING!" *ban* and swooping away without observing or asking questions.

The most likely situation is that someone claims their "other player" was afk whilst they were killing, but every once in a while that other person shows up to toss them a heal or a DS or a buff of some sort... in which case, hey, that looks like 2 boxing and they should be banned. Now this could be a case where someone is playing with their wife, and she's doing other things and showing up to heal periodically... thing is... that's suspicious and if you have a legitimate reason for having an exemption you shouldn't be doing that.

[mitic]

However, as my uncle always said, there are three sides to every story. His side, their side and the truth.

this is best quote ive heard in the past year!

[Uthgaard]

Next time someone comes here with a half-told sob story that people buy into, they'll have a prime example of what kind of person is telling it.


Most martyrs die for what they believe in. Case in point:

JFK
Jesus
MLK Jr.

And usually, they are opposed by the masses (in this case a brigade of level 30 Druid forum trolls) even though they are fighting for righteousness.

What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right.


I thought I would start a thread after what I experienced today so that anybody playing with an IP exemption could know the unofficial rules governing GM decision-making on this server so that nobody unwitting falls into the same situation as we did today. I realize this will be met with ridicule but nonetheless I think it's important for people to know the scoop so the tragedy doesn't happen to any other groups of people.


The most amusing part of these rage threads is how they always try to preface it with some pretense that they're doing really doing it to champion some righteous fight against injustice. Because, y'know, they'd never do it just to bawwwww.

The biggest tragedy is that this detail was left out:

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[Cyrius]

With a degree in CS

They give out degrees for Counterstrike now? :eek:

[Teensy Weensy]

I'm glad you got banned. I was at that camp and saw you clearly two boxing. His "brother" was never there at all. He just had the guy sitting under the dock AFK for hours. The guy never moved.

[Tudana]

It should be very simple, If you have an exemption, then it's in your interest to make sure it doesn't appear that you're boxing. We have a winner!

GMS please amend the rules to IP expm to "no AFKing for longer then 10 mins."

This will help those that try to work around the 2boxing with the excuse of "he was afk....for 5 hours, but he was there danget!"

[Jaxon]

OP sounds reasonable, coherent, and argues his position logically and forcefully. Uthgaard can't come up with a good excuse to save his life. Judgment in favor of the accused.

[quellren]

Having never posted here before and thus having an unbiased view, I would just like to say that most of you posting "obviously 2 boxing," or some variation of it, should try actually putting forth facts as to why it IS 2 boxing. Seems pretty clear to me that that is not 2 boxing... However, as my uncle always said, there are three sides to every story. His side, their side and the truth.

It's 2-boxing because 2 characters are logged in from ONE IP, one is actively killing for exp, and the other is sitting reaping the rewards without any contribution.
Were it 2 separate IPs, then it's just a lazy group memeber, or a Powerlevel.
Since it's ONE IP, it appear suspicious.

See here's the thing. Since you're so proud of being unbiased, be unbiased from the admin side:
You come across 2 people, one is sitting doing nothing, one is doing 100% of the work. After many minutes of observation pass, that one player still hasn't moved. A quick check reveals that BOTH CHARACTERS are being played from a single IP.
Looks exactly like boxing to me.

[Yak]

The problem is that it's all about perception. I understand that the GM's have their hands full but there has to be some guidelines or a warning. However, this is part of being responsible as well. Technically they don't have to do anything. However, I feel that ti would be a curious thing to do. They need to define what they consider to be dual boxing. Let's say you are grouping with the wife and a family emergency comes up and one of you has to deal with you child. One goes AFK for 30 mins or whatever. Are you telling me that you would get fucking banned for that. This would not be common but possible. It would be very helpful if the GM's could spend a few minutes and make a sticky section on this and don't just strike the ban hammer with out looking into it. Hey, other then that I am just great full to have this server to play on. However, I am sick of rehashing this same topic over and over again. It seems to be one of those topics that won't die on these forums until something is done about it.

Another easy way to fix it would be to just offer IP exceptions to people who make donations, why not? Problem solved.

[Ihealyou]

Another easy way to fix it would be to just offer IP exceptions to people who make donations, why not? Problem solved.

Besides being a terrible idea, this is a great idea. How would this fix anything?

[Swishahouse]

What I will never understand every time one of those bitch ass posts happen is why people assume these devs HAVE to be FAIR AND CORRECT all the time. Were just leeching off their time and effort 99% of users have never submitted a bug report or done anything to enhance the project even in the smallest of ways. If they want to ban you for any reason you're simply torched! Coming on these Rogean Uthboards and going turbo qq over it is definitely not going to help your cause at all. In fact, you'll get trolled out, butthurt and ZOMGZ still banned!

[Swishahouse]

BTW I know for a fact that when the GMs do check up on people with IP exemptions they do observe for a time before making a decision about whether or not the player was infact boxing.

[Rahnza]

OP sounds reasonable, coherent, and argues his position logically and forcefully. Uthgaard can't come up with a good excuse to save his life. Judgment in favor of the accused.

[Timzilla]

How is a friend from halfway across the world going afk while you get him experience functionally different from 2-boxing? Answer: You aren't him.

Answer here: I'm not my bro.

Had we been tested this would have been apparent. Instead, a ban was issued without question.


Perhaps I should present a broader scenario here. Two people aren't on the same connection in a similar configuration - a guy could just as easily rig a computer at work or a friends house and set the character afk. Would he be instantly banned for boxing? No, he doesn't even have an IP exemption. He's just some dude and "another dude afk". So is going afk while another person gets you experience against the rules? For this to be consistent it must be.

Diabolical plan there...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Duj2oZIC8U

[Timzilla]

The problem is that it's all about perception. I understand that the GM's have their hands full but there has to be some guidelines or a warning. However, this is part of being responsible as well. Technically they don't have to do anything. However, I feel that ti would be a curious thing to do. They need to define what they consider to be dual boxing. Let's say you are grouping with the wife and a family emergency comes up and one of you has to deal with you child. One goes AFK for 30 mins or whatever. Are you telling me that you would get fucking banned for that. This would not be common but possible. It would be very helpful if the GM's could spend a few minutes and make a sticky section on this and don't just strike the ban hammer with out looking into it. Hey, other then that I am just great full to have this server to play on. However, I am sick of rehashing this same topic over and over again. It seems to be one of those topics that won't die on these forums until something is done about it.

Another easy way to fix it would be to just offer IP exceptions to people who make donations, why not? Problem solved.

How is yor scenario confusing in the least bit? Does the wife not know there's a camp/quit button?

[rioisk]

The most amusing part of these rage threads is how they always try to preface it with some pretense that they're doing really doing it to champion some righteous fight against injustice. Because, y'know, they'd never do it just to bawwwww.

The biggest tragedy is that this detail was left out:

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I don't feel I'm raging. Sure it's a messed up situation but I'm trying my best to present myself as clearly as possible. You are the one who seems to be raging with immediate character attacks/mockery.

Beside the point, your reply make me wonder if you lack trust or meaningful relationships in your life. Why do you assume I'm:

...they always try to preface it with some pretense that they're doing really doing it to champion some righteous fight against injustice.

Did you ever stop to think that may be I'm doing it because I realize after this experience that GMs here act like nazis with their decisions? May be if you knew our situation you'd know why I am intent on making sure people are aware of what goes on here. All I should say is, coming from knowing how much husband/wives, best friends, roommates, and so forth enjoy playing this game together, I think it's important for them to know so they don't accidentally arrive in similar situations and unknowingly face a ban.

My bro was unsure if he wanted to play in the first place, but after this event he laughed and asked me "Why would you want to be play on a server with GMs like that?". With all things considered, I can't help but agree.

So before you arrive at all sorts of assumption, perhaps you should take a breather and realize that not everybody here is out to lie, cheat, and steal, and genuinely just want to follow the rules and have a good time.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Let's say you are grouping with the wife and a family emergency comes up and one of you has to deal with you child. One goes AFK for 30 mins or whatever. Are you telling me that you would get fucking banned for that.

"I have to go AFK 30 mins to spank our child."

"Okay, well, camp out here... we do have an IP exemption, you know. It'll look like we're multi-boxing."

"But we're totally not multi-boxing. The GMs should be able to see that."

"Yeah, they can't tell the difference... two people in close proximity, both characters on the same IP address, one not moving... would look pretty fishy to everyone. And I'm sure actual multi-boxers use the "my wife had to go AFK to beat our kids" all the time. So just log out."

"Thanks, honey... I understand now! You saved us from getting banned!"

http://www.martingordon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/the_more_you_know.jpg

[YendorLootmonkey]

Did you ever stop to think that may be I'm doing it because I realize after this experience that GMs here act like nazis with their decisions? May be if you knew our situation you'd know why I am intent on making sure people are aware of what goes on here. All I should say is, coming from knowing how much husband/wives, best friends, roommates, and so forth enjoy playing this game together, I think it's important for them to know so they don't accidentally arrive in similar situations and unknowingly face a ban.

I should think the common sense that comes from:

"Multi-boxing is bannable here, therefore we should not appear to do anything that could be misconstrued as multi-boxing."

should be sufficient.

[Cyrius]

I don't feel I'm raging. Sure it's a messed up situation but I'm trying my best to present myself as clearly as possible. You are the one who seems to be raging with immediate character attacks/mockery.

Beside the point, your reply make me wonder if you lack trust or meaningful relationships in your life. Why do you assume I'm:

...they always try to preface it with some pretense that they're doing really doing it to champion some righteous fight against injustice.

Did you ever stop to think that may be I'm doing it because I realize after this experience that GMs here act like nazis with their decisions? May be if you knew our situation you'd know why I am intent on making sure people are aware of what goes on here. All I should say is, coming from knowing how much husband/wives, best friends, roommates, and so forth enjoy playing this game together, I think it's important for them to know so they don't accidentally arrive in similar situations and unknowingly face a ban.

My bro was unsure if he wanted to play in the first place, but after this event he laughed and asked me "Why would you want to be play on a server with GMs like that?". With all things considered, I can't help but agree.

So before you arrive at all sorts of assumption, perhaps you should take a breather and realize that not everybody here is out to lie, cheat, and steal, and genuinely just want to follow the rules and have a good time.

So you are suggesting we should belive everyone that says "my brother / mother / grandma / dog just went AFK, he brb!!"? Does that mean we should also belive those people that accuse others of two boxing? Why belive one if not the other? Quick! Let me ban half the server, since it has been accused by the other half to box!

Alot of the staff members put in the same amount or even more of their free time into developing or guiding on here, solving petitions, playing babysitter etc. then the hardcore raiders spend on raiding. We have our experiences, and we act accordingly. Give me ONE reason why i should belive you, that you did not actualy two box, but have a brother that just wants to leech exp of you? Do i know you? Are we friends since 20 years? Can i read your mind?

[Yak]

Besides being a terrible idea, this is a great idea. How would this fix anything?

Why is it a terrible idea? The only reason they don't allow dual boxing is because it eats up bandwidth and bandwidth costs money. This is basic math and by donating would cover the cost for bandwidth. It would keep it simple and this issue would not be policed so much.

[Yak]

How is yor scenario confusing in the least bit? Does the wife not know there's a camp/quit button?

It is only confusing to a retard who don't have a family. I was just stating this as an example. I said emergency. In an emergency you don't have that kind of time.

[Cyrius]

Why is it a terrible idea? The only reason they don't allow dual boxing is because it eats up bandwidth and bandwidth costs money. This is basic math and by donating would cover the cost for bandwidth. It would keep it simple and this issue would not be policed so much.

You are wrong, the reason is because Nilbog says so. He wants to foster a community, wich obviously worked. If everyone was allowed to multibox here, do you realy think the population would be as high as it is now? Maybe, but not with real players, but 200 people 4+ boxing. Is has absolutely nothing to do with bandwith or server capacity.

Donations are called donations for a reason. They do not entitle you to anything, they do not make you "special". Donations are used to keep the server up and running, to pay for the monthy hosting fees and the hardware. All in all donations enable you to play here the way you do. It is a priviledge to work on this server, and it is a priviledge to play on this server. It is in no way a "birth right" for everyone.

[Cyrius]

It is only confusing to a retard who don't have a family. I was just stating this as an example. I said emergency. In an emergency you don't have that kind of time.

So you sit so far away from your wifes computer that you can not stop playing for 5 seconds and type /camp or /exit on her computer when an "emergency" comes up that only your wife has to attend?

[Yak]

You are wrong, the reason is because Nilbog says so. He wants to foster a community, wich obviously worked. If everyone was allowed to multibox here, do you realy think the population would be as high as it is now? Maybe, but not with real players, but 200 people 4+ boxing. Is has absolutely nothing to do with bandwith or server capacity.

Donations are called donations for a reason. They do not entitle you to anything, they do not make you "special". Donations are used to keep the server up and running, to pay for the monthy hosting fees and the hardware. All in all donations enable you to play here the way you do. It is a priviledge to work on this server, and it is a priviledge to play on this server. It is in no way a "birth right" for everyone.

I thought it was a bandwidth issue costing more money? It it just the fact to remain true to classic spirit of not having any unfair advantage? I thought that I read on the forums it was a bandwidth issue. Could you please explain then why is multi-boxing not allowed and is it worth all this trouble? I wasn't implying that a donation entitles you to anything. I was simply implying that if multi-boxing it costing the hosting more money, would be away around it is all.

[Crone]

I can see both sides of this arguement, and it's unfortunate that the rules have to be what they are, because there is absolutely no way to prove whether or not this person was 2boxing or not, and with a rule like that you have to side with yes, he was. Ban. Too many have tried to lie and scheme their way out of bans for the server staff to act any differently.

One question I do have though is that I've gone afk following a friend of mine before while he experienced. IP exemptions were not involved, but I went to watch a movie, and he kept playing with me on follow.

Is this allowed? I figured it would be, because 2 different people, but only 1 is doing any work, but there isn't an IP exemption.

Thank you for any clarification.

[Cyrius]

I am sure Nilbog explained his reasons somewhere on this forum already. I am in no way entitled to speak for him or his reasons as to why those rules are here. I am a server guide, and i enforce those rules. Nilbog may have more reasons than i know, but the most important for me was the one i already stated. To encourage a feeling of community, to make people work together (like it was intended for EQ), and to not have a handfull of people box all content alone.

[Yak]

I am sure Nilbog explained his reasons somewhere on this forum already. I am in no way entitled to speak for him or his reasons as to why those rules are here. I am a server guide, and i enforce those rules. Nilbog may have more reasons than i know, but the most important for me was the one i already stated. To encourage a feeling of community, to make people work together (like it was intended for EQ), and to not have a handfull of people box all content alone.

No disrespect but are you honestly telling us that you just enforce the rules but have no idea why? I agree that regardless the owners of the server can do what they want. However, since we are having an open discussion it would be nice to know why or is that asking to much?

[rioisk2]

So you are suggesting we should belive everyone that says "my brother / mother / grandma / dog just went AFK, he brb!!"? Does that mean we should also belive those people that accuse others of two boxing? Why belive one if not the other? Quick! Let me ban half the server, since it has been accused by the other half to box!

Alot of the staff members put in the same amount or even more of their free time into developing or guiding on here, solving petitions, playing babysitter etc. then the hardcore raiders spend on raiding. We have our experiences, and we act accordingly. Give me ONE reason why i should belive you, that you did not actualy two box, but have a brother that just wants to leech exp of you? Do i know you? Are we friends since 20 years? Can i read your mind?

You know Cyrius, you're right. When it all comes down to it, anybody can figure out a way to rig anything. You have no reason to trust me. There is no real objective way to prove anything. People should know this is what they face when they get an exemption though, aside from just being told "One person per client". That rule doesn't mean much. As in the situation described by the husband/wife and the child emergency. Why should people have to consider how they "appear to be". For crying out loud, they're told the rule and they think they follow it, but alas, they "appear" otherwise, so they may face problems. I know how much these people enjoy playing together so I think they should be told/made aware that they can never "appear" to be boxing - ie there are very specific restrictions on your playing experience. My situation, for example, is one of them.

This isn't some benevolent crusade out of my own self interest. As I have stated, my brother said he doesn't want to play anymore after what happened anyways, even though we could rig up an alternative method to be able to play together anyways. Can't help but agree with him about not playing at this point too.

[Cyrius]

Seriously, you need to start reading my whole post. I told you i do not know / remember all reasons why there is no boxing allowed, and i told you the most important one two times now. Do i have to know everything? No. You think every police officer knows the 3248957839475893475 laws they are enforcing and why they were made in the first place?

[rioisk2]

I am sure Nilbog explained his reasons somewhere on this forum already. I am in no way entitled to speak for him or his reasons as to why those rules are here. I am a server guide, and i enforce those rules. Nilbog may have more reasons than i know, but the most important for me was the one i already stated. To encourage a feeling of community, to make people work together (like it was intended for EQ), and to not have a handfull of people box all content alone.

No, he hasn't.

[Crone]

Wrong thread IMO. Soooo many threads about boxing have been made on these forums. You could spend a whole day just reading through them all.

With that said, let me google that for you.

http://tinyurl.com/23cxamq

[Chanus]

You know, this problem wouldn't exist if people weren't irrationally afraid of letting honest players multi-box.

[rioisk2]

You know, this problem wouldn't exist if people weren't irrationally afraid of letting honest players multi-box.

Exactly, dishonest people will find a way around the rules anyways. It's like gun control, it only makes the honest people not have protection against the criminals.

[Yak]

Seriously, you need to start reading my whole post. I told you i do not know / remember all reasons why there is no boxing allowed, and i told you the most important one two times now. Do i have to know everything? No. You think every police officer knows the 3248957839475893475 laws they are enforcing and why they were made in the first place?

No, I don't think anyone can no everything but this is a major rule set on the server. You saying that you are unfamiliar with this rule, is like saying that a police officer doesn't know the burglary laws of his or her state. I realize that I beating a dead horse and will leave it as that.

However, this thread has told me one thing. Don't dual box unless you want to risk the chance of your IP getting banned.

[Cyrius]

LOL @ last 2 posts.

[rioisk2]

So you sit so far away from your wifes computer that you can not stop playing for 5 seconds and type /camp or /exit on her computer when an "emergency" comes up that only your wife has to attend?

Technically this is against the rules per "one client per person".

The rules need to be more specific to reflect these things.

[Cyrius]

No, I don't think anyone can no everything but this is a major rule set on the server. You saying that you are unfamiliar with this rule, is like saying that a police officer doesn't know the burglary laws of his or her state. I realize that I beating a dead horse and will leave it as that.

However, this thread has told me one thing. Don't dual box unless you want to risk the chance of your IP getting banned.

Again, read my posts, i told you TWICE why there is a boxing rule. I am not unfamiliar with the rule, i know what it's intentions are. What more do i need to know? Seriously.

[Cyrius]

Technically this is against the rules per "one client per person".

The rules need to be more specific to reflect these things.

No, people need to learn to apply common sense.

[Yak]

Again, read my posts, i told you TWICE why there is a boxing rule. I am not unfamiliar with the rule, i know what it's intentions are. What more do i need to know? Seriously.

We cool man, you said you don't know. I respect that and will leave it at that. :)

[Chanus]

Again, read my posts, i told you TWICE why there is a boxing rule. I am not unfamiliar with the rule, i know what it's intentions are. What more do i need to know? Seriously.

The "it fosters community" argument is complete bullshit. There is absolutely no evidence that the community is stronger without boxing. There is the same level of bullshit and elitism and anti-social behavior here as there is on any other server.

How many people solo?
How many husband/wife/brother/sister/drunken clown/terrified child combos of people play together and don't engage the community?
How many guilds lock others out of content?
How many people refuse to group with sub-optimal players?

How much of that is due to boxing?

Why is it okay for two or fifty-four people to be insular, but if a single person does it on his or her own it's a grievous injustice that must be stamped out?

[rioisk2]

No, people need to learn to apply common sense.

How is any of this common sense? May be common sense of the offender. I feel like only those who do offend would go to such lengths to prevent them from seeming to be boxing. I feel like normal people would just play without thinking about it because they know they're doing nothing wrong since they're obeying the rule they were told.

[stonez138]

The "it fosters community" argument is complete bullshit. There is absolutely no evidence that the community is stronger without boxing. There is the same level of bullshit and elitism and anti-social behavior here as there is on any other server.

How many people solo?
How many husband/wife/brother/sister/drunken clown/terrified child combos of people play together and don't engage the community?
How many guilds lock others out of content?
How many people refuse to group with sub-optimal players?

How much of that is due to boxing?

Why is it okay for two or fifty-four people to be insular, but if a single person does it on his or her own it's a grievous injustice that must be stamped out?

You ignored the other argument. Do you want to see Efreeti and FG's perma-camped by someone boxing 6 toons 24/7?

[stonez138]

How is any of this common sense?

Let's see...2 toons + 1 player = boxing. Seems pretty basic to me.

[Chanus]

You ignored the other argument. Do you want to see Efreeti and FG's perma-camped by someone boxing 6 toons 24/7?

Can one person legitimately 6-box any camp 24/7?

(The correct answer is 'no').

[stonez138]

Quote:
Originally Posted by stonez138 View Post
You ignored the other argument. Do you want to see Efreeti and FG's perma-camped by someone boxing 6 toons 24/7?
Can one person legitimately 6-box any camp 24/7?

(The correct answer is 'no').

Ever heard of hyperbole or exaggeration?
(The correct answer is 'no')

In reality though I'm sure some folks in the same guild would share account information and find a way to keep the aforementioned camps locked down about 90-99% of the time.

[xshayla701]

Seriously

Cyriusly*

[Yinaltin]

but but

[Chanus]

Ever heard of hyperbole or exaggeration?
(The correct answer is 'no')

In reality though I'm sure some folks in the same guild would share account information and find a way to keep the aforementioned camps locked down about 90-99% of the time.

It's always a good idea to base your argument in hyperbole.


So, even if it is the case that camps are locked down, why not make that against the rules instead of boxing?

If that's the problem you want to alleviate, why attack something else?

Some people drive drunk and hurt other people, so we should outlaw driving!

[Chanus]

Is it the case that boxing is the only means by which people could lock down camps?

Are camps available to everyone currently because we don't allow boxing?

[Crone]

Places like Lguk and SolB are already crowded. If boxing were allowed it'd be even more difficult to try and get a group anywhere.

[Chanus]

Places like Lguk and SolB are already crowded. If boxing were allowed it'd be even more difficult to try and get a group anywhere.

How do you figure that's anything other than conjecture?

[YendorLootmonkey]

Less grouping opportunities for 1-boxers if the multi-boxers can just log in another character to tank, heal, buff, slow, wtfever. THAT is what would ruin the community.

The issue is that grouping opportunities are meaningless for level 50s right now, so it's either a) "how useful would it be to the raid to be able to multi-box a mage alt in addition to my mage main to double the number of malachites I burn through?", b) "how useful would it be to lock down a loot camp with 2 or 3 characters so I can monopolize the rare drop or at least have a better shot at winning the /random on said rare drop?", or c) "how useful would it be to just have my main here to PL my alt instead of actually grouping up with other people?"

Having said that, there's tons of threads arguing for/against multi-boxing... this one is more about "Why is it not obvious that if there is a rule against multi-boxing, then you should do your best to make sure that you don't do anything that could be perceived as multi-boxing, because you will not be able to prove you weren't if someone confronts you about it."

[stonez138]

How do you figure that's anything other than conjecture?

It's called logic.

[Omnimorph]

Boxing is allowed on other servers because they lack actual population. P99 gets upwards of 1k at peak time. Now if you had people boxing multiple toons you could easily double that number. The boxing debate has been played to death already. It's not going to be approved.

[Maurk]

Hey quick question: Say you have an IP Exemption with a buddy.
But They happen to be playing from a different IP (yet you still have the IP exemption)
Will it show you are both playing from the same IP?

For example, in the case Rioisk, had his bro been playing from a different IP,
(yet they still have the IP exemption) would It still appear like they are boxxing?
Or can you tell If it's on a different IP? Or does it just show they are both exempt, therefore possibly boxxing?

[stonez138]

It's not going to be approved.

And I, for one, am glad!

[Loke]

While it does sound kind of shady, I've done something similar. I had a friend on P99 (who lives multiple states away from me mind you) log in my alt to group up with a higher level character while I kited and PL'd. I mean, the only difference between what he was doing and what I was doing was the distance the two computers were away from each other (few feet vs. hundreds of miles).

I certainly don't believe what I was doing in anyway violated the rules. Guess this is a good reason to not have an IP exemption on any of my accounts!

[Cyrius]

Hey quick question: Say you have an IP Exemption with a buddy.
But They happen to be playing from a different IP (yet you still have the IP exemption)
Will it show you are both playing from the same IP?

For example, in the case Rioisk, had his bro been playing from a different IP,
(yet they still have the IP exemption) would It still appear like they are boxxing?
Or can you tell If it's on a different IP? Or does it just show they are both exempt, therefore possibly boxxing?

We can see the IP.

[quellren]

The "it fosters community" argument is complete bullshit. There is absolutely no evidence that the community is stronger without boxing. There is the same level of bullshit and elitism and anti-social behavior here as there is on any other server.
You've clearly never played on a server that allowed boxing. Go check out ANY of the other Emu servers and you'll realize that if I can (and I have) 6-box on PEQ, why the hell do I need to interact with anyone else? I have my own optimally configured party, and so does everyone else. Or at least they have the option to, no one is out there LFG.


How many people solo?
How many husband/wife/brother/sister/drunken clown/terrified child combos of people play together and don't engage the community?
How many guilds lock others out of content?
How many people refuse to group with sub-optimal players?

How much of that is due to boxing?

Why is it okay for two or fifty-four people to be insular, but if a single person does it on his or her own it's a grievous injustice that must be stamped out?

If it's even a little bit of a problem now, imagine how much worse it'll be when
1) those solos are now trios or quads
2) half a dozen poopsockers can now mobilize an ENTIRE Vox raid by logging in the whole force on 6 computers. 1/6 the moving parts (people) to coordinate means much faster engagement.

I cannot fathom how people don't see that boxing is bad in every respect every time.

[quellren]

Premature Submission:

OP, I'm sorry you got ban-hammered. It sucks, you were just trying to help your brother along, I get it. It wasn't malicious or intent to cheat.
But at the same time, you have to realize that per the HMFIC (head motherfucker in charge), you were boxing, and boxing isn't dealt with lightly.
In a post a few pages back, look at it from an admin PoV:
One of you is actively killing and the other is sitting doing nothing, and you both are logged in on the same IP.
Looks awful suspect man.

[Uthgaard]

You all are free to come to whatever conclusions you like, from what little information has been provided to you by the party who got wtfb&. Rants and Flames isn't a Tribunal. We have more logs and investigative tools than eqlive ever thought of having, Rogean has done a pretty amazing job of coding in logging systems that are so thorough, that there's really not much of anything that we CANT see.

I will say this, however. The 2boxing, and cheating, and RMT is becoming a rampant problem. And some people might think they're getting away with it. But you can never escape the logs. It doesnt matter if you bought some plat back in July. Sure, the person selling it might cash in, leave the server, and 'get away with it'. But whoever bought it, is fucking torched.

It doesn't matter if you don't like the resolution. We're here to maintain the integrity of a server, for what seems like no other reason than for you forum ingrates to bitch about it every step of the way.

So get ready for a whole lot more of these rage threads telling half-truths. If you've been involved in RMT, get ready for a ban. If you've 2boxed, get ready for a ban. If you've cheated, get ready for a ban. Trading it off onto other accounts won't save you. Deleting the characters used, won't save you. Dropping it on the ground wont save you. Nothing you can do, will save you.