Not sure which class to pick -- Looking for guidance

[Shortstack]

As a background, I never played Classic EQ until PoP and left soon after for WoW. I played a cleric on p99 a while ago with a group of friends but did not enjoy it very much, and likewise my Paladin friend did not enjoy tanking, so we are trying again but switching roles this time with new characters.

I have narrowed my choices down to three: warriors, shadow knights, and monks. I'm having trouble, however, narrowing it further.

Warriors seem to be the standardized tank that deals good damage (a bonus in our group that will likely comprise of me, a cleric/shaman, and an enchanter/monk) and takes the most hits, but seems to struggle with aggro unlike pal/sk. None of us are rich in game so it seems unlikely that I would be able to gear him up heavily.

Shadowknight seems like a viable alternative since they still do reasonable damage, generate good aggro, can pull, tank groups really well (this is all I'll do likely) and have a lot of cool utility. Also I can be an ogre which is a BIG plus since I love the way they look and I love sorta dumb characters. Also seems to be less gear dependent than warrior?

Monk seems like the quirky alternative that doesn't seem to be gear dependent but I'm not sure how viable they are for tanking.

Any input is appreciated, I'm completely torn between them. Any advice from expert and tanks is welcome!

[gildor]

If you plan on just enjoying the game the way up, and are not end-game oriented..any hybrid (paladin, SK, Bard, Ranger), warrior, or monk can tank all content on the way. Something to consider.

[Sage Truthbearer]

Warriors can dish out very respectable DPS, have a significant role in raiding later on, have dual wield, crit/crippling hits, and some awesome class disciplines. The downside is that you might struggle more with getting/maintaining aggro in groups than an SK would. Also, some people might not find it too interesting being a pure tank melee class with no utility spells.

SKs can get and maintain aggro effortlessly, make excellent group tanks, and bring a bunch of different tools to a soloing or grouping like invisibility, fd, snares, dots, lifetaps, a pet, and fear. The downside is that you have poor dps, no dual wield, crappy disciplines, and will not have a significant role on raids later on.

Pick the class that fits more with how prefer to enjoy EQ.

[Jimjam]

In much of classic velious a well geared monk could tank better than a warrior; They could reach the AC hard cap, but had bonus defence from being a monk in addition to having much improved avoidance abilities.

I'm not sure if it's exactly the same here (probably no AC hardcap for starters), but I suggest you won't be making too big a sacrifice having a monk as tank. Monks can generate a lot of hate through melee, as long as they don't FD it off, and warriors are in many ways reliant on having a caster root the mob for you, which leaves the monk no worse off.

[RDawg816]

Being a warrior is fun. Just being able to take so much damage and get those crits/crips are a bonus.
Feign Death is super fun as well.

I would suggest these combos...
1. Shaman, monk, warrior
2. Cleric, monk, sk
3. Shaman, enchanter, monk
4. Cleric, enchanter, monk

Scenario 1, monk can pull and do dps - shaman can (de)buff, heal and cc - you can tank either with root/fd or taunt, when it works. Once you have aggro, the shaman will be medding anyways.
Scenario 2, monk pulls and dps - cleric heals - you help pull and get snap aggro.
Scenario 3, enchanter can cc, buff and dps - shaman can (de)buff (especially pet) and heal - you can pull and dps.
Scenario 4, cleric can heal and buff (especially the enchanter) - enchanter can (de)buff, cc and do dps - you would pull and dps.

[Danth]

If you really like an Ogre, make an Ogre. Enjoyment is the single most important aspect of a character.

Warriors struggle for aggro as you noticed. They're gear dependent, but mid-range gear is affordable and adequate to allow the class to perform its role. Warriors work well with classes that generate low aggro themselves, or can shed aggro at will, such as Monks and Clerics.

Shadow Knights don't struggle for aggro and bring feign pulling if your group doesn't have it. Shadow Knights are at their best tanking for classes that generate large amounts of aggro such as Shamans and Enchanters. Shadow Knights have modest solo capability.

Monks can tank if they have to but they're not great at it. They have similarly poor aggro as Warriors, no Taunt, and much lower hit points. The Shadow Knight and Monk classes have a lot of overlap in the jobs they do, with the Monk heavily favoring offense (it has far superior damage output) and the Shadow Knight being more defensive-focused.

Danth

[iruinedyourday]

I think monk is more fun.. they are pretty gear dependant when you start getting into the game, but so is warrior.

If you prefer any sense of self worth and ability to do interesting soloing tactics and tricks, go monk.

If you want to be a group ONLY tank, go warrior... if you want to be a roleplayer go SK.

A monk decently geared from the EC tunnel, or from leveling on Red, will group tank fine until you find a better tank, at which point you'll switch to DPS... if you were SK you'd switch to less helpful secondary tank.. as warrior you'll just feel like a 3rd wheel if you get another better geared warrior.

As a monk, you'll likely get more invites to duo/trio the great cash camps than you would as a war and definitely would as an SK.

Raid gearing a monk is hard, cus a lot of people have them as alts, cus they are just such great classes... so be prepared for that... a warrior is almost as difficult, but a little less & a SK is pretty easy to gear in a raid.. but if you're raiding with an SK better gear is like, whats the point? All I do is farm Green mob cash camps with this guy anyway and RP ;)

Personally I would go monk.. but if you LOVE armor graphics and swords and shit, go warrior. Or sk.. jesus IDK

[Colgate]

monks solo, tank, pull, and dps better than all of those classes

the only time a warrior is a better tank than a monk is on mobs that necessitate defensive discipline (only like 5 exist in the entire game)

[iruinedyourday]

yea but what if u like armor and swords and shit hehe

[Lojik]

Monk is really easy to gear for cheap. Wus staff is like 100p and you'll out dps wars who have multiple k invested in weapons. Tons of armor options for cheap too.

Is it 3 of you guys? Would recommend necro, shm, monk all iksar. Monk can tank almost anything, requires little gear, syncs well with shm, and necro also syncs well with shm and requires little gearing investment. Shm spells can get expensive but not really until lvl 60. Lvling shm are great in duos/trios.

All 3 of those classes benefit from racial regen as well, and they are all pretty fun classes.

[Shortstack]

I didn't expect so many informative replies so quickly :eek: Thanks guys!

You've all given me quite a lot to think over, and I appreciate the depth of each answer. I'm not super concerned with end-game raid tanking, and I'm sure there will be times when I want to solo if the other guys aren't online. So from that I take it warrior might not be the best idea.

SK seems to be a red-haired step child of the group (maybe not so much as paladin though) and that is a bit of a bummer.

A lot of pros for Monk and it doesn't seem to have many cons (except not being beautiful majestic ogres) so that might be the most logical choice. I will probably at least try out monk and either war/sk to get a feel for which I would rather play.

Thanks again for all of the knowledgeable input fellas!

[Sage Truthbearer]

A lot of pros for Monk and it doesn't seem to have many cons (except not being beautiful majestic ogres) so that might be the most logical choice. I will probably at least try out monk and either war/sk to get a feel for which I would rather play.

Yeah, Monks are very powerful class in this era of EQ and have always been a fun class to play, but do you enjoy the role of pulling? That will be the expectation of you in nearly every group you join unless they already have a designated puller, so consider that into your decision.

If you dig the way Ogres look then I would make one. You're going to invest a lot of time into your character, and I wouldn't want to waste time on a character that I didn't think looked cool. Also, SKs along with Paladins, are by far the best tanks for pick-up/experience groups which is what it sounds like you are primarily going to be doing. Not Monks.

[thufir]

SK seems to be a red-haired step child of the group (maybe not so much as paladin though) and that is a bit of a bummer.
Shadowknights are excellent for group content. They have better aggro and snap aggro than either monk or warrior. They also have a good toolkit with a bunch of useful magics. Can even solo in a pinch. I greatly prefer my shadowknight to my warrior, for what that's worth.

They don't have much of a role in endgame raids, but they are very good for anything south of that. You'll have a lot to do.

[vouss]

Sk's are absolutely useless to play on anything other then a PvP server, but if your playing on blue it doesn't really matter what you play as at all.

[thufir]

Sk's are absolutely useless to play on anything other then a PvP server, but if your playing on blue it doesn't really matter what you play as at all.

yeah, don't agree with that and haven't met many people who do, but I have noticed that there is a small contingent of raiders with multiple 60s who share this opinion.

if you have an unlimited amount of time to play the game and really like a raiding environment, you're probably right. if you're more casual, sk has a lot to offer.

[Damn]

yeah, don't agree with that and haven't met many people who do, but I have noticed that there is a small contingent of raiders with multiple 60s who share this opinion.

if you have an unlimited amount of time to play the game and really like a raiding environment, you're probably right. if you're more casual, sk has a lot to offer.

Shadowknights are pretty useless in most pve scenarios unless you're doing a fear/hate clear or training mobs in vp and taking charms/dts

They simply getb outshines by every other class in pve however they're gods in pvp probably the most versatile and best solo pvp class endgame

[Troxx]

Whoever said monks don't tank well is flat out wrong. They take less damage than warriors (outside of defensive disc) and knights (pretty much all the time). They have fewer hit points than the plate tanks. Much like warriors they depend in melee aggro and procs for threat. They have fewer aggro weapon choices than warriors but generate more raw melee threat.

The point is ... Outside of defensive discipline monks are flat out overpowered in the tanking spectrum. They generate more than enough threat to hold aggro and they take less overall damage than the plate tanks. Once you factor in their superior damage output, feign death and mend it quickly becomes obvious why there are so many monks on this server.

Monks fill the roles of puller, dps, and tank very well - and in some cases all 3 roles at once flawlessly. That's why you see so many power duos/trios with monks in them.


To the OP, I know it sounds cliche but play what makes you happy. All 3 classes are fun for different reasons.

[thufir]

Shadowknights are pretty useless in most pve scenarios unless you're doing a fear/hate clear or training mobs in vp and taking charms/dts

They simply getb outshines by every other class in pve however they're gods in pvp probably the most versatile and best solo pvp class endgame

thanks for demonstrating the thinking of high end raiders.

again, if you're a casual sk has a lot to offer. but yes, if you are going to have a top end raiding endgame a lot of classes, including the sk, have no real role.

[RDawg816]

thanks for demonstrating the thinking of high end raiders.
Exactly. Opinionated min-maxers and rules-lawyers are overwhelmingly abundant. If you emo the game by being the best possible, that's fine....but if someone wants to make a gnome enchanter, an erudite necro, a ranger, etc. keep your opinion to yourself. It's one thing to politely suggest something (hey, you know a Necro really could benefit from that regen), but it's another thing to force your min-maxing on others.

[thufir]

Exactly. Opinionated min-maxers and rules-lawyers are overwhelmingly abundant. If you emo the game by being the best possible, that's fine....but if someone wants to make a gnome enchanter, an erudite necro, a ranger, etc. keep your opinion to yourself. It's one thing to politely suggest something (hey, you know a Necro really could benefit from that regen), but it's another thing to force your min-maxing on others.
I don't know, I think it's fine to offer your opinion, but it's obviously not true that a SK is "useless". If you're just getting into the game and don't have twink options an SK is the best tank you could play besides paladin. It's easy aggro control that doesn't require a bunch of starting cash to power up, and groups will form around you. You also get a lot of tricks that are incredibly useful to have (like snare pulling).

Like I've said, I get that if you have multiple 60s, can easily afford twink gear, and your idea of playing the game is training in Veeshan's Peak, you might think an SK is no good. (Rangers get similar levels of hate, despite being useful in small group utility/dps/offtank roles.) But the lower level pug game and journey to 60 is a way different story. People who make the "SK is useless" plug generally have multiple 60s and a large amount of plat for twinks, in which case sure, roll a monk and PL your way to the Temple of Veeshan.

[RDawg816]

I don't know, I think it's fine to offer your opinion
That's my point. When someone clearly wants to play a barbarian and is debating warrior or shaman they don't need people saying to reroll an ogre. That's not helpful.
Every race/class combo is fun and viable to someone....

[Nixtar]

Don't expect to tank well unless you're twinked as a monk. You will be struggling to hold aggro in groups. Warriors do at least have taunt. SK/PAL got that snap aggro which is why in almost every group on the road to 60 you will see a knight tanking.

In 90% of the cases you will be the puller as a monk, 10% you'll tank waiting for a knight/warrior. Which is fun. You get to learn how a zone works, how it looks, which will make most other characters you roll more fun.

You won't be this super-class some prop up monks to be. If I had a choice between an equally twinked monk or knight, I'd choose the knight every time. Monks are great DPS and Pullers and CAN tank if you can't find a proper tank. Be sure to ask for someone to root if you're going to tank as a monk because otherwise the mobs WILL ping-pong and the healer will have to keep 5 people alive rather than one(which drains mana fast).

Mini-rant here... I HATE HERO MONKS WHO THINK THEY'RE THE TANK. Seriously, stop it. You're wasting my mana, you have FD, you can manage your aggro. Stop waving your T-staff shaped E-peen in the face of everyone, just stop it.

If you duo with a shaman you can't go wrong with either warrior/sk/monk, where the monk edges out the other two due to the combination of DPS/Pulling(splitting mobs)/good-enough-tank.

[Danth]

I want to see those "Shadow Knights are useless" folks provide a full list of places a Monk/Shaman can duo where a SK/Shaman cannot. I'd like some actual perspective rather than vague claims.

Danth

[Nixtar]

I want to see those "Shadow Knights are useless" folks provide a full list of places a Monk/Shaman can duo where a SK/Shaman cannot. I'd like some actual perspective rather than vague claims.

Danth

min-max mindset; If X class can do something 0.1% more efficient than Y class, Y class is useless and anyone rolling Y class should be berated and humiliated. Bonus points if they mention why a particular race is also 0.05% more effective and you are "retarded and/or an idiot" for not choosing it.

For instance, there were no effective monks or necromancers before Kunark. They were completely useless and the sole demographic rolling those were retards/idiots.

[Troxx]

Don't expect to tank well unless you're twinked as a monk. You will be struggling to hold aggro in groups. Warriors do at least have taunt. SK/PAL got that snap aggro which is why in almost every group on the road to 60 you will see a knight tanking.

In 90% of the cases you will be the puller as a monk, 10% you'll tank waiting for a knight/warrior. Which is fun. You get to learn how a zone works, how it looks, which will make most other characters you roll more fun.

You won't be this super-class some prop up monks to be. If I had a choice between an equally twinked monk or knight, I'd choose the knight every time. Monks are great DPS and Pullers and CAN tank if you can't find a proper tank. Be sure to ask for someone to root if you're going to tank as a monk because otherwise the mobs WILL ping-pong and the healer will have to keep 5 people alive rather than one(which drains mana fast).

Mini-rant here... I HATE HERO MONKS WHO THINK THEY'RE THE TANK. Seriously, stop it. You're wasting my mana, you have FD, you can manage your aggro. Stop waving your T-staff shaped E-peen in the face of everyone, just stop it.

If you duo with a shaman you can't go wrong with either warrior/sk/monk, where the monk edges out the other two due to the combination of DPS/Pulling(splitting mobs)/good-enough-tank.


You'd be surprised just how well monks do tank if you bothered to parse it. It's actually pretty sad; but it's classic. Comparing equivalently geared characters, they take less damage than either knight class or even warriors outside of defensive discipline.

What they don't have is reliable aggro ... But warriors don't really have that either. Their hit point pools are somewhat low, but that's not really important unless you've got a cleric that is using complete heal.

Monks are just one of those overpowered classes in this era of EQ.

Knights are great and a blast to play.
Warriors do their job well.

But yeah monks really do take the lowest damage outside of discipline.

[Lojik]

You'd be surprised just how well monks do tank if you bothered to parse it. It's actually pretty sad; but it's classic. Comparing equivalently geared characters, they take less damage than either knight class or even warriors outside of defensive discipline.

What they don't have is reliable aggro ... But warriors don't really have that either. Their hit point pools are somewhat low, but that's not really important unless you've got a cleric that is using complete heal.

Monks are just one of those overpowered classes in this era of EQ.

Knights are great and a blast to play.
Warriors do their job well.

But yeah monks really do take the lowest damage outside of discipline.

Gearing options for monks are great in kunark era and ridiculous in velious era. You can get some great +ac pieces that are pretty lightweight for sub 100p. If you have 1k to spend on a char, the monk can actually be pretty well equipped, while knights and wars will struggle. Knights and wars are fine, as the content of this game isn't that hard, and you'll do great in most situations with them.

A negative I would have for the knight classes is that they can't regen mana well while fighting, so you will have added downtime between fights that you wouldn't if you were monk/war, unless you are grouped with enc/bard. I think, ultimately, that's the biggest enemy to newer players (downtime,) and it's probably a reason you guys quit before.

[Nixtar]

You'd be surprised just how well monks do tank if you bothered to parse it. It's actually pretty sad; but it's classic. Comparing equivalently geared characters, they take less damage than either knight class or even warriors outside of defensive discipline.

What they don't have is reliable aggro ... But warriors don't really have that either. Their hit point pools are somewhat low, but that's not really important unless you've got a cleric that is using complete heal.

Monks are just one of those overpowered classes in this era of EQ.

Knights are great and a blast to play.
Warriors do their job well.

But yeah monks really do take the lowest damage outside of discipline.

Didn't dispute that but in terms overall effectiveness in tanking(as in the role of the tank) monks fall short.

Doesnt matter if you take less damage when the mob in question is attack your chanter/healer. As a Paladin I have FoL/Stun/heal/root and are able to swiftly regain control of the fight + every other class can comfortably heal/DPS without the fear of getting attacked. SKs have a similar yet different set of tools to do the same.

That's my entire point. While the mitigation numbers favour monks there's more to tanking than simply taking a little bit less damage.

[Lojik]

Didn't dispute that but in terms overall effectiveness in tanking(as in the role of the tank) monks fall short.

Doesnt matter if you take less damage when the mob in question is attack your chanter/healer. As a Paladin I have FoL/Stun/heal/root and are able to swiftly regain control of the fight + every other class can comfortably heal/DPS without the fear of getting attacked. SKs have a similar yet different set of tools to do the same.

That's my entire point. While the mitigation numbers favour monks there's more to tanking than simply taking a little bit less damage.

If you're fulfilling a tank role, then chances are you have at least 1 support class with you that can root so the monk can root tank. It's great that paladins/rangers/SK's have all these tools, but if you use them a lot you're gonna have to sit and med (without an enc.) It's better to have support classes use all those tools since they can regen mana during the fight, but a lot of healers get in the "just sit there and wait to heal" mentality instead of taking a larger role in xp groups. On a similar note, had a cleric buying stun command off me, and he didnt wanna offer very much because he said that spell was "useless to him." lol.

[Jimjam]

Sometimes warriors and monks that need a way to emergency aggro on a mob. If, for example a silky or lower level group member is being beaten up on.

Taunt can achieve this, but it is far from reliable. As such, a more serious pseudo solution (and available to both classes) is root nets.

[RDawg816]

I regularly group with a monk. He pulls, tanks, and does dps well. In terms of healing, he doesn't need much. Mend helps a lot, as does his iksar regen. He holds aggro well enough, and if not, root isn't much mana.
Sometimes we'll get a tank to join us. There is a distinct difference. While the tank does require more healing, his aggro allows me to med more. I usually have plenty of mana either way.

Now, when the monk pulls a wizard, that's another story. He has pretty poor resists. Usually the tank can stun and their gear has more resists. That's the kicker. If you're fighting casters, the monk usually isn't as good an option.

This is in smaller groups (2-4). In a full group I don't think that would matter as much. The monk holds aggro over the wizards when we invite them. Heck, the rogue can keep aggro over the wizard.
If you're not fighting raid mobs, the difference is negligible. It's all about knowing your group and their potential. Paying attention helps exponentially. :)

[Nixtar]

If you're fulfilling a tank role, then chances are you have at least 1 support class with you that can root so the monk can root tank. It's great that paladins/rangers/SK's have all these tools, but if you use them a lot you're gonna have to sit and med (without an enc.) It's better to have support classes use all those tools since they can regen mana during the fight, but a lot of healers get in the "just sit there and wait to heal" mentality instead of taking a larger role in xp groups. On a similar note, had a cleric buying stun command off me, and he didnt wanna offer very much because he said that spell was "useless to him." lol.

In a decent group I won't have to expend much mana. Disease cloud/FoL are very cheap spells and they do not break randomly, on DD, costs less. In those cases I do it is due to shutting down a caster/healer mob, things have gone wrong, in which case if your tank is a monk you're screwed.

People love dat snap aggro for a reason. Makes things run smoothly.

[Sage Truthbearer]

It's great that paladins/rangers/SK's have all these tools, but if you use them a lot you're gonna have to sit and med (without an enc.)

Flash of Light costs 12 mana. I think Disease Cloud costs 10?

You'd be surprised just how well monks do tank if you bothered to parse it... What they don't have is reliable aggro

So, what they don't have is one of the primary jobs of a tank?

I regularly group with a monk. He pulls, tanks, and does dps well. In terms of healing, he doesn't need much. Mend helps a lot, as does his iksar regen. He holds aggro well enough, and if not, root isn't much mana.

Most people on P99 are not playing this game in a static duo or group like the one you are describing. Most people are joining pick-up groups filled with random strangers of varying abilities who come and go every 30 minutes - 1 hour, who may or may not know how to manage their aggro correctly. Snap aggro is very useful for letting these groups run and continue to run efficiently.

[RDawg816]

Most people on P99 are not playing this game in a static duo or group like the one you are describing. Most people are joining pick-up groups filled with random strangers of varying abilities who come and go every 30 minutes - 1 hour, who may or may not know how to manage their aggro correctly. Snap aggro is very useful for letting these groups run and continue to run efficiently.
That's very true. I've grouped with many types in PuGs. Some are great, some are horrible. I'm not recommending monks tank in every PuG. I'm not suggesting every rogue can pull/tank effectively. I'm merely stating the differences I've noticed with competent players of different classes in the same role.

[Colgate]

In a decent group I won't have to expend much mana. Disease cloud/FoL are very cheap spells and they do not break randomly, on DD, costs less. In those cases I do it is due to shutting down a caster/healer mob, things have gone wrong, in which case if your tank is a monk you're screwed.

People love dat snap aggro for a reason. Makes things run smoothly.

yeah paladins and SKs are great for people who suck at the game and can't figure out why they shouldn't tash or slow a mob at 98% hp

[Lojik]

Flash of Light costs 12 mana. I think Disease Cloud costs 10?

From a casters perspective that's nothing, but if you're fighting it will take you over a minute to regain mana from 1 of those casts. Not a problem if you have an enc, but if you don't you'll have to sit at some point. Mana regen during combat is why shaman is so op on blue in this era.

I don't think knights are useless classes, it's just monks are very overpowered during this era.

[Nixtar]

yeah paladins and SKs are great for people who suck at the game and can't figure out why they shouldn't tash or slow a mob at 98% hp

So why pick a class, monk in this case, which forces you to hold DPS/heals/slow/debuffs when you can have a knight which allows everyone to instantly engage a mob? Are you trying to make the case for knights? If not, what's your point?

[Colgate]

there is literally no situation in which i would want a paladin or a shadow knight in a group versus a monk

unless i feel like being lazy/stupid, which is incredibly common among people on this game, so it's a fair point

[Nixtar]

Yes, because being effective is so stupid. Much better to waste mana healing a monk so he can pretend he's a real tank.

[thufir]

keep in mind who you're arguing with here guys. colgate is BiS in multiple slots and has been raiding tov since velious came out. it would be difficult to find someone else who better exemplified the "fully immersed hardcore raider" viewpoint. he's in way too deep to identify with normal everquest players.

[Nixtar]

keep in mind who you're arguing with here guys. colgate is BiS in multiple slots and has been raiding tov since velious came out. it would be difficult to find someone else who better exemplified the "fully immersed hardcore raider" viewpoint. he's in way too deep to identify with normal everquest players.

Which is kinda weird given the OP is fresh out of the gate trying to figure out what to start playing. I mean, if we're going to use BiS NToV gear as a benchmark it really doesn't matter which of the afformentioned cases you use. You are going to be able to tank and able to dish out some pain, no matter what. Indeed, not everyone will be able to join a guild who has zero competition for high end mobs.

It is simply unrealistic for the OP(if he chooses a monk) to go into the game expecting to be the tank when in reality he's going to be the puller 90% of the time. Which is the basis of my posts.

[thufir]

Which is kinda weird given the OP is fresh out of the gate trying to figure out what to start playing. I mean, if we're going to use BiS NToV gear as a benchmark it really doesn't matter which of the afformentioned cases you use. You are going to be able to tank and able to dish out some pain, no matter what. Indeed, not everyone will be able to join a guild who has zero competition for high end mobs.

It is simply unrealistic for the OP(if he chooses a monk) to go into the game expecting to be the tank when in reality he's going to be the puller 90% of the time. Which is the basis of my posts.

Oh I completely agree. You have to be really, really into this game to be playing it for 5+ years and constantly raiding that whole time. Chances are, you (global you) aren't one of those people.

This won't stop them from coming into threads like this and making ex cathedra pronouncements as if every level 60 monk could solo Zordakalicus Ragefire, though (or for that matter, if every freshly created monk will be able to tank right out of the gate without twinking). Just trying to make sure that everyone sees their perspective when they make those statements.

[Sage Truthbearer]

there is literally no situation in which i would want a paladin or a shadow knight in a group versus a monk

unless i feel like being lazy/stupid, which is incredibly common among people on this game, so it's a fair point

Right, because everyone who likes to have fun playing EQ differently than the way you do are "lazy/stupid."

How dare they have fun on an 17-year-old Elf simulator casually!

[Colgate]

why can't you pull and tank at the same time

gear has virtually no difference on your avoidance, which is what makes monks good tanks

you truly have no idea how mana efficient it is healing a monk vs a hybrid; 10% longer of the fight without slow does not outweigh how much better monks are at tanking damage

they are truly very overpowered while hybrids are very underpowered

[Colgate]

Right, because everyone who likes to have fun playing EQ differently than the way you do are "lazy/stupid."

How dare they have fun on an 17-year-old Elf simulator casually!

that comment refers to the people who don't understand aggro mechanics and get mad when they get aggro after backstabbing or trying to tash/slow right off the bat

[Jimjam]

why can't you pull and tank at the same time

gear has virtually no difference on your avoidance, which is what makes monks good tanks

you truly have no idea how mana efficient it is healing a monk vs a hybrid; 10% longer of the fight without slow does not outweigh how much better monks are at tanking damage

they are truly very overpowered while hybrids are very underpowered

In fairness often it is good for the puller to be leaving camp looking for fresh meat before the mob(s) in camp are dead, which is not so easy when puller and tank are the same character.

Low levels monks will get plenty of AC from cloth/mesh armour to tank (so if you go with monk, OP hit upper guk for a while to get mesh armour).

By the time such armour looses its potency you should have saved up some cash to buy the next level of equipment (all/all items with decent AC tend to be low weight, so good for monks, think Azure Sleeves and so on). Fortunately upper guk as well as having nice armour for monks also drops a tonne of gems, which are high value, stackable and low weight. If you are playing a fixed group it might even be worth having one player being the designated aster looter so you can maximise the money you all make off of vendor trash.

It's only really in the 50s where there is a gap in what is affordable, and what is effective.

[Troxx]

The point is monks, while tanks, make exceptionally good tanks. To say they are bad tanks is a lie. When I play my shaman I spend less mana healing a monk than I do a warrior or knight. This should not be discounted. I slow mobs on incoming and tank a few round until the monk has agro. Monks rarely need more than my regrowth buff ... knights/warriors need more heals. In a fast paced group, knights are nice for agro lock.

What they can't be is Ogre which the OP wants to be.

All of the 4 classes in question are fun to play. Monks allow for the greatest flexibility, but they are not the endall beall.

OP should play what is fun to play, not what is best.

My monk is a human. Clearly not the ideal monk race ... but I wanted a human so I made a human monk.

[Danth]

To say they are bad tanks is a lie.

I disagree. None of the tank classes in this game are exceptional; they're all missing something. Warriors have great hit point pools, /disc defensive, and tolerable damage reduction otherwise, but low hate generation. Hybrid tanks have great hate generation with good overall toolsets and decent hit points, but ho-hum damage reduction. Monks have great damage reduction, but lousy hit point pools and no snap aggro at all, not even taunt. As a total package they're clearly the 4th place within the tank role among the four classes being discussed.

Does that make the Monk a bad class? Heck no. As a class I rate it as the strongest melee class in the game, certainly stronger than the plate tanks. The tank role, generally, is a rather weak role in this game. Much like healing, you can't tank a monster to death. Most content doesn't strictly require a tank at all (a Shaman can tank all standard leveling content), but all of the dedicated tank classes give up a great deal of power in return for their typically-not-mandatory tank characteristics. On top of that, experience rates depend largely on damage done, further favoring offense. Monks are powerful not because they're great tanks--they aren't--but because they can fill in and get the job done while being powerful damage dealers and ideal pullers, too. It's a great class that can act as an okay tank.

If a player regards the tank job as simply part of the process of making a monster dead, and especially if he's perfectly happy even if he never acts as tank, he should make a Monk. It'll serve well enough when he needs to tank while being a stronger class otherwise. The only players I recommend dedicated tank classes for on P1999 are players who enjoy the tank job as an end to itself. Such players appreciate the plate tanks for being better packages for that job and are okay with the power trade that comes with that choice.

Danth

[Colgate]

lol @ monks aren't great tanks

alright bud, you got a good laugh out of me

[Vexenu]

Monks may make the best tanks in certain ideal situations (i.e. skilled/competent groupmates, non-casting mobs, non-chain pulling groups) but the other tanking classes are superior in a wider range of situations. The hybrids especially. It's very easy for hardcore raiders who play with the same dedicated group to forget that the game is much different for casual and leveling players. Groups are rarely if ever ideal for the casual player, and skilled, attentive groupmates cannot be counted on (honestly, is this really a revelation? I swear I'm not exaggerating when I say that something approaching 50% of the people on the server regularly play under the influence). In those type of situations a skilled player on a Paladin can do a lot more to carry a group than a skilled player on a Monk as far as tanking is concerned. The SK carries well to a lesser extent, and even the Warrior offers more flexibility when SHTF with defensive. Also note that Colgate's Monk is geared in the top .0001% of Monks that ever played EQ. Hardly typical or representative of a new player who wants to level a character up and tank.

[Beastagoog]

as a former main Paladin on red99, and been thru 95% of velly content I can safely say unless you want survivability in PvP there is 0 point to playing a Paladin over: SK/War/Monk.

I'd suggest either a Monk or SK as both have a higher utility and can explore/dps better than a Paladin.

Don't get me wrong a Paladin has his place at the table but it's not as exciting as the others.


Edit: however if you asked me what tank I'd want in a group situation I'd say a Paladin over the rest for sure.

[Shortstack]

After taking all of this into consideration, we've decided to try out the following combos:

1) Iksar monk, shaman, DE enchanter (thanks RDawg)

We like this combo (two of us started together which is cool, and the other loves Dark Elves) and I'm enjoying field of bone and cabillis.

2) Ogre Shadowknight/Warrior, Troll Shaman, DE Cleric/Enchanter

This lets all of us play our favorite races :D We haven't started these characters yet but plan to start this weekend and get a feel for which combo of characters we prefer.

I doubt we'll ever raid, but just playing the game and cracking jokes is what makes it for us. Thanks again for all of the replies guys, you've all been crazy helpful to us!!

[Jimjam]

Innoruuk makes a good religion for a troll shaman, as it gives access to a short duration snare/damage over time clicky. The Dark Elf cleric can also access this quest.

[jolanar]

Innoruuk makes a good religion for a troll shaman, as it gives access to a short duration snare/damage over time clicky. The Dark Elf cleric can also access this quest.

Lies and slander. Cazic Thule is better. Fear animal and panic undead clickies available. Especially if the cleric is already innoruuk. And even more especially if they go the SK route.