Aftermath eating a full 10 days raid suspension

[Cochonou]

Word on the street is that Aftermath is going to eat a full 10 days raid suspension for clearly stalling King Tormax during yesterday's earthquake.

Discuss

#Banhammer #Rulelawyering #Stalling #TimeToGoOutside

[Samoht]

It makes sense. They thought that they would ruleslawyer the FTE rule, but completely forgot about the stalling rule. Detoxx so dumb.

[ismael]

Would love to see this happen after they not only had FTE people camped under the spawns before the mobs even popped, but also stalled both Statue and KT.

The fact that the CSR staff even thought the rule was a good idea and didn't think about a repop situation and how it would be abused is maybe the bigger crime.

It's great that Aftermath pretends to be the white knights that want to make it fair for lesser guilds to get mobs but then undermines the integrity of the rules to do the opposite.

[Pokesan]

what made them think they could get away with it?

[bktroost]

I'm not upset about statue because they made it right by assisting us in the kill and forfeiting all loot priory to its death. But KT was a mess and a half.

Sometimes things break and need to break before they can be made perfect.

[ismael]

Nemce, mind giving some more details as to why KT was a mess and a half for the masses that do not know?

[Fire Beetle]

All Sirken has to do is a little more detailed information to his rules. It's really that simple.

[arsenalpow]

The earthquake happened, aftermath secured FTE (meaning they got 1 attempt guaranteed) then dipped for other targets keeping KT on ice.

CSG shows up, sees no one in zone, sees KT, batphones, mobilizes, and suddenly they are told "sorry guys, Aftermath already got that FTE, they get an attempt, go kick rocks"

[Batso]

You were warned that the rules needed to be very specific and that it would be difficult to foresee every possible angle.

[Gimp]

Would love to see this happen after they not only had FTE people camped under the spawns before the mobs even popped, but also stalled both Statue and KT.

The fact that the CSR staff even thought the rule was a good idea and didn't think about a repop situation and how it would be abused is maybe the bigger crime.

It's great that Aftermath pretends to be the white knights that want to make it fair for lesser guilds to get mobs but then undermines the integrity of the rules to do the opposite.

I ran up from the start line and got FTE. Have video of it.

Nice try though.

Race better

[Pokesan]

The earthquake happened, aftermath secured FTE (meaning they got 1 attempt guaranteed) then dipped for other targets keeping KT on ice.

CSG shows up, sees no one in zone, sees KT, batphones, mobilizes, and suddenly they are told "sorry guys, Aftermath already got that FTE, they get an attempt, go kick rocks"

Staff said that?

[arsenalpow]

Staff said that?

Well staff said "I'm sorry CSG, this FTE has already been secured by Aftermath and according to our new Kael rules they are guaranteed one attempt" which is the equivalent of go kick rocks.

[Gimp]

CSG got a BP off statue, not sure why they're mad..Detoxx could have told em to kick rocks

[arsenalpow]

CSG got a BP off statue, not sure why they're mad..Detoxx could have told em to kick rocks

You don't have their mindset, you wouldn't understand. That's not a slight, it's just entirely different perspective. They aren't operating with a loot bottomline in mind.

[Pokesan]

which idiot GM ruled FTE persists without a force present

[bktroost]

Staff said that?

Yes. The zone was empty, identifying a lose of engagement and absolutely no way for us to know that as the zone was empty when we brought 80 people as cleared for 45 minutes and then were told by sirken that we had to find other mobs because this one was claimed.

They wiped a lot of people in ToV for a while and we killed vindi clearing to statue since we couldn't do KT. They killed KT and told us we couldn't do statue because of fte. The word stalling was used a lot and so they offered to team up on statue and give us the loot.

Half my guild left for the night after the crazy KT ruling and before vindi. So it was a huge mess.

[bktroost]

which idiot GM ruled FTE persists without a force present

Sirken's mouth directly to our officer.

[Ciroco]

CSG got a BP off statue, not sure why they're mad..Detoxx could have told em to kick rocks

There was no BP, but that's not important. The issue isn't with Detoxx, it's with the ridiculousness that is this rule when applied to earthquakes.

[bktroost]

The big problem here is that there is no way to know someone got an fte on a repop. Since people are arriving at all different times. We are discussing changes in raid channel though to try to fix things.

Frustrating, growing pains. I'm hopeful.

[Pokesan]

that's insane

[Nibblewitz]

that's p99

[arsenalpow]

which idiot GM ruled FTE persists without a force present

It's the rule though. It's vague. This has always happened when you have vague rules and people willing to push things to the extreme.

[Gimp]

Like I told some random CSG guy raging at my monk last night, I think the rule is too vague and pretty dumb overall, but we can only play within the parameters set before us.

[Cochonou]

It's coming dudes !

[Gimp]

Ran when my screen started shaking, just like everyone's done for years in VP.

[Man0warr]

Like I told some random CSG guy raging at my monk last night, I think the rule is too vague and pretty dumb overall, but we can only play within the parameters set before us.

OR you could realize what you did was against the "spirit of the rule" which Sirken so heavily implied and killed Tormax/Statue after getting FTE as soon as possible instead of being greedy dicks and running off to ToV.

[Fire Beetle]

So you are fine with pissing all over the spirit of the rules if you get loot from it ?

AG, must be great having a leader that can be bought with a few silvers..who claims every chance he gets, I am not in it for the loot I'm in it for the chance to experience the feel of classic casual EQ..
Who keeps claming that it's the other guilds players that are the worst on the server due to their loot hungy ways, they do anything for loot and break any rules..

He just showed everyone what his price to piss on any rule was..a BP and help killing the mob that drops it.

Hypocrite much ?

This is not fair man. You have a guild that gave up loot because of the trivial non-sense of the current rule and to keep good relations between guilds. The same guild who passed their loot also requested not to have vague rule sets. The more explanation the better.

[falkun]

Basically, Sirken is Aftermath's bitch. Aftermath didn't have anyone there to enforce the rule, Sirken did it for them. This loophole was pointed out a week ago by Aftermath (Pint), in Sirken's own thread announcing the rule:
3/29:
20 minutes to engage kt imo
3/31:
How long are we assuming the winning guild has to engage statue or kt? Is it unlimited?
Then they turned around and abused it. Hopefully Stalling comes into play, but I doubt it, because Aftermath zoned out and Sirken still enforced their claim (underlined emphasis is mine).
Q10: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited, stalled, or occupied?
A: It is against server policy to indefinitely kite, stall, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of killing it. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stalling of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild/party, is against the rules. Ignorance is not an excuse to break this rule, if you are pulling raid targets, we expect you to know what you’re doing.

[Sodors Finest Poster]

FINALLY.

RNF might be great again boys and girls.

[Pokesan]

raid suspend sirken instead imo

[TMBLOW]

Ran when my screen started shaking, just like everyone's done for years in VP.

so you ran before any raid boss actually spawned and parked yourself rdy to snipe FTE 3 min later so your guild could casually kill some ToV targets and come back later

Sounds like not only your guild bent the spirit of the Kael foot race rule but you yourself were off the starting line before the mob even popped

While we are comparing to VP pad:

When a dragon in VP spawns, anyone past the VP entrance Blue Pad may not assist their guild in any way.

[Troxx]

raid scene on this server is so stupid

One solution? Put in place a 30 day ban on ALL raid targets for any obvious shenanigans. Permanently ban any offender who violates rules or engages a raid target during that 30 day ban.

What do you want to bet guilds would suddenly learn to play by the rules? If not, permanent ban is eaten which frees up content for everyone else.

[bktroost]

So you are fine with pissing all over the spirit of the rules if you get loot from it ?

AG, must be great having a leader that can be bought with a few silvers..who claims every chance he gets, I am not in it for the loot I'm in it for the chance to experience the feel of classic casual EQ..
Who keeps claming that it's the other guilds players that are the worst on the server due to their loot hungy ways, they do anything for loot and break any rules..

He just showed everyone what his price to piss on any rule was..a BP and help killing the mob that drops it.

Hypocrite much ?

No BP was gained. I've never submitted a petition as a guild because guild's can always play nice and gentlemanly. Also, I get +1 for your vitriolic comment. O think in up to +4 this week.

[arsenalpow]

so you ran before any raid boss actually spawned and parked yourself rdy to snipe FTE 3 min later so your guild could casually kill some ToV targets and come back later

Sounds like not only your guild bent the spirit of the Kael foot race rule but you yourself were off the starting line before the mob even popped

While we are comparing to VP pad:

When a dragon in VP spawns, anyone past the VP entrance Blue Pad may not assist their guild in any way.

Statue was in window last night so nerds were lined up to race prior.

[Gimp]

so you ran before any raid boss actually spawned and parked yourself rdy to snipe FTE 3 min later so your guild could casually kill some ToV targets and come back later

Sounds like not only your guild bent the spirit of the Kael foot race rule but you yourself were off the starting line before the mob even popped

While we are comparing to VP pad:

When a dragon in VP spawns, anyone past the VP entrance Blue Pad may not assist their guild in any way.

In this argument, every repop PD for the past 2-3 years is a violation.

Gold star for trying though

[TMBLOW]

Statue was in window last night so nerds were lined up to race prior.

correct - there was a delay between the ground shake and the raid mobs actually spawning

Since he ran when the ground shook, he was past the starting line when the mob actually spawned aka tracker FTE. Many other racers were patiently waiting at the line for the mobs to actually spawn.

Do we need even more rules for these retarded footraces that when ground shakes go ham

[ismael]

so you ran before any raid boss actually spawned and parked yourself rdy to snipe FTE 3 min later so your guild could casually kill some ToV targets and come back later

Sounds like not only your guild bent the spirit of the Kael foot race rule but you yourself were off the starting line before the mob even popped

While we are comparing to VP pad:

When a dragon in VP spawns, anyone past the VP entrance Blue Pad may not assist their guild in any way.

Look, the person who got FTE admitted that he started the race when the groundshook and not when the mob was actually up. That's against the rule that I read on the forum.

Like the other guys said, sirken is Aftermath's bitch. He not only enforces a rule that only they wanted at the summit but also has no problem with them starting the race before the mob even spawns and even lets people know, hey guys, this mob is reserved for Aftermath!

Favoritism is obvious.

[khanable]

Wasn't there some rule somewhere that said a guild can only have active fte on a single target? Did that get removed after the great nerd meeting of 2016?

I'm not up to date on this crap anymore :/

[Ravager]

Remove raid mobs from Blue, give Blue raiders the option to /move to Red, everyone wins.

[Ella`Ella]

Wasn't there some rule somewhere that said a guild can only have active fte on a single target? Did that get removed after the great nerd meeting of 2016?

I'm not up to date on this crap anymore :/

Server rule is you can have as many targets FTE'd at once as you want, they just all have to come directly into your camp or you can let your opponent tag whichever mob they want off your train/whatever. Which means, you'd have to kill the first one quickly before the second (or third, fourth, etc...) go to your camp. Later on, there became a player made rule between Hoku and Detoxx that restricted FTE to a single target at once, but Awakened didn't want to honor any player made rules after they formed.

[khanable]

Server rule is you can have as many targets FTE'd at once as you want, they just all have to come directly into your camp or you can let your opponent tag whichever mob they want off your train/whatever. Which means, you'd have to kill the first one quickly before the second (or third, fourth, etc...) go to your camp. Later on, there became a player made rule between Hoku and Detoxx that restricted FTE to a single target at once, but Awakened didn't want to honor any player made rules after they formed.

Ah, that's what I was thinking of, then.

Hard to keep track of all this shit anymore.

[Morgander]

raid scene on this server is so stupid

One solution? Put in place a 30 day ban on ALL raid targets for any obvious shenanigans. Permanently ban any offender who violates rules or engages a raid target during that 30 day ban.

What do you want to bet guilds would suddenly learn to play by the rules? If not, permanent ban is eaten which frees up content for everyone else.

This statement makes me think you are unfamiliar with the top-end raid scene on P1999. What constitutes "obvious shenanigans"? You're a leader in a top-tier raid guild. You just communicated the respawn of a target to some 200 or so people, 70 of which just dropped everything they were doing to log in to help your team out with this target. You have direct competition of which has done the exact same thing. You all have a vested--and serious interest in this endeavor.

You try to abide 100% by every single rule--a series of rules of which are NOT clear-cut, and of which the only "evidence" is a video recording of events transpiring. Now one of your very experienced guild monks is trying--to legitimately get FTE and by utilizing all rulings, obtain FTE and bring said target to your force. Mobs warp; pathing is hokey; people outside your guild interfere, and all the while you're attempting all this with a train of targets at your back, any one of which can kill you faster than you can FD. On top of that, you have additional individuals doing train up, prepping to train away any straggling mobs who come with the target, among a slew of other things that happen during these events.

Now one of your competitor guilds is calling foul. They "claim" you did something that broke a rule. What do you do? Do you immediately concede the mob because ONE person sent a tell to their applicable raid officer and told them that from THEIR perspective, this player/guild broke some rule in some form? Do you just tell all 70 of your raid force that you're so sorry for waking them up, and or pulling them from whatever they were doing, but we're going to just completely withdraw our attempt because ONE PERSON THINKS THEIR VIEWPOINT SHOWCASES 100% OF THE SITUATION?

Please.

If you understand the rules and like Aftermath (of which I can speak for), attempt to abide by them 100% of the time, you realize that MOST accusations are without merit. We do NOT make blatant attempts to abuse rules. IF it ever does happen, it is by complete accident. It's not like any single entity has only one or two people involved in the training around, FTEing, and pulling of these targets in zones such as Kael and ToV. These kinds of things are incredibly complicated, and a prime reason why there are only two guilds competing in ToV (with all respect provided to all other guilds out there).

I grow so utterly tired of the nonsensical requests that the raid scene have these insane rulings or penalties. Can you imagine having your entire raid guild suspended for a MONTH because ONE person made an accusation that from all accounts, did NOT actually happen? That kind of rule would make it so that the second any guild ever called foul, you would be--as an officer--immediately inclined to simply drop the pull completely, and concede out of sheer fear that maybe one person got a FRAPS of something that conclusively proves that one error was made by one person who didn't know said error happened.

Hell, the FRAPS may not have even shown said target having bad pathing. Maybe the recorder was initiated at just the right time to not show that part, so it looks like a kite.

You just can't do this sort of crap. The entire situation here is a lot more broad, and a lot more complicated than most even begin to realize.

[Eponymous Anonymous]

Later on, there became a player made rule between Hoku and Detoxx that restricted FTE to a single target at once, but Awakened didn't want to honor any player made rules after they formed.

Actually it was Detoxx that refused to honor that agreement because "Rampage doesn't exist anymore".

[Oleris]

At work right now, but I asked sirken about this 5 mins after we got fte and he said it was ours. I asked him 30 minutes later when csg was moving up in Kael and he said it was still ours. He knew CSG would be mad, but they weren'the even trying to footage.

[Lojik]

Can you imagine having your entire raid guild suspended for a MONTH

I'd literally die. I see your point

[bktroost]

At work right now, but I asked sirken about this 5 mins after we got fte and he said it was ours. I asked him 30 minutes later when csg was moving up in Kael and he said it was still ours. He knew CSG would be mad, but they weren'the even trying to footage.

I'm not mad. Sometimes you need to let things break before you can fix em. I understand what he was doing. I'm not upset by progress. Progress is a bumpy road.

[bktroost]

I'd literally die. I see your point

lol you're such a troll.

[ismael]

At work right now, but I asked sirken about this 5 mins after we got fte and he said it was ours. I asked him 30 minutes later when csg was moving up in Kael and he said it was still ours. He knew CSG would be mad, but they weren'the even trying to footage.

So Sirken is ok with Aftermath securing an illegal FTE via the rules he set forth.

Seems legit.

#BraknarHeadGm2016 please.

[Gimp]

Oleris doin God's work

[Samoht]

You try to abide 100% by every single rule

Next time, try abiding by the you only have FTE until you zone out rule, and the pullers cannot be past the starting line when the mob spawns rule.

[Lojik]

lol you're such a troll.

Who's trolling? Everquest without raid mobs is like Festivus without the feats of strength...it's un-American

[Oleris]

No more earthquakes. Problem solved.

[Herp]

This "FTE gets first attempt" rule may be the single most retarded thing ive ever seen.

[Gimp]

Yeah, if they wouldn't have shit the bed so hard on the repop yesterday, these anon accounts wouldn't be out here berging their face off.

Play better chaps

[Morgander]

Next time, try abiding by the you only have FTE until you zone out rule, and the pullers cannot be past the starting line when the mob spawns rule.

Aftermath makes every single attempt to abide by 100% of the rules. Period.

[Samoht]

Aftermath makes every single attempt to abide by 100% of the rules. Period.

I listed two that they deliberately broke on this earthquake. Now what?

[Cochonou]

Breaking news, word on the street is that Uthgard is actually looking at this issue.

[khanable]

Aftermath makes every single attempt to abide by 100% of the rules. Period.

I'm sure the guilds that follow the rules are glad to know you attempt to follow the rules

[Cecily]

This "FTE gets first attempt" rule may be the single most retarded thing ive ever seen.

I think it's a good thing. Having a reserved FTE should mean you have to go for it immediately or forfeit, however, or it's the worst raid stall maneuver this server has dealt with. The hardcore raid guilds are VERY good at finding loopholes in rules, and honestly I'm thankful this one has been abused so quickly and can be fixed before it's use becomes common place. This will be fixed. Right?

You don't have their mindset, you wouldn't understand. That's not a slight, it's just entirely different perspective. They aren't operating with a loot bottomline in mind.

Exactly. For a casual guild, the kill itself is the reward. It's just not the same after you kill a dragon the 30th time.

[Vallanor]

This is almost enough to make me want to TRY RED.


But only almost.

[Lojik]

Exactly. For a casual guild, the kill itself is the reward. It's just not the same after you kill a dragon the 30th time.

But Tormax isn't a dragon? So it's still super rewarding

[Cecily]

God damn loop holes.

[Spyder73]

.

[Morgander]

I'm sure the guilds that follow the rules are glad to know you attempt to follow the rules

Aftermath makes every single attempt to abide by 100% of the rules. Period.

[Pokesan]

let the forum eat you

[Lojik]

Aftermath makes every single attempt to abide by 100% of the rules. Period.

If you say it a third time does Sirken appear?

[derpcake]

This is almost enough to make me want to TRY RED.


But only almost.

This wouldn't happen on red.

Really it wouldn't, pvp would happen or people would get trained the fuck over.

I prefer both scenarios to the events on blue, and can't imagine how much time was wasted collectively.

[Cecily]

http://i.imgur.com/EiwrofO.jpg?2

[Spyder73]

If you say it a third time does Sirken appear?

[Swish]

That's why we don't get earthquakes... now the staff gotta spend the next week playing lawyerquest.

[Lojik]

That's why we don't get earthquakes... now the staff gotta spend the next week playing lawyerquest.

Heard it's easiest to pass the bar in Grobb...can anyone confirm?

[Swish]

get some tail kicker ale if you're going that way.

[Herp]

Best part is, these rules started because Aftermath brought Vyemm to zone in on top of 2-3 guilds, causing 3 GMs to come. Such punishment.

[Sodors Finest Poster]

Just wait until Velious is released. That'll fix the raid scene.

[FatMice]

Cecily I thought we were friends. What happen?

Also I like using /e command with Nally!

[Llandris]

Feel free to bitch about the raid scene as much as you want, this in RnF afterall. But bashing staff members or thinking we play favorites here will result in a forum vacation. Good day

[FatMice]

How many deep breathes does Swish need before he posts as Llandris?

[quido]

TattleQuest 2016

[Ravager]

I miss PacketQuest 2012.

[quido]

Seriously, I bet most of you would rather lose the mob and get someone else suspended than just win the mob. You're a bunch of filthy maggots.

TattleQuest 2016

[Mistle]

What will happen first, Aftermath gets the ban they deserve or Pint actually reaches puberty?

[Sodors Finest Poster]

http://i.imgur.com/lTf4bHG.gif

[Ciroco]

I like the part where Pint implies that a 10 day raid suspension would devastate casual guilds

[Legday]

What will happen first, Aftermath gets the ban they deserve or Pint actually reaches puberty?

Neither, actually.

[Cecily]

Cecily I thought we were friends. What happen?

Also I like using /e command with Nally!

A rōnin (浪人?) was a samurai with no lord or master during the feudal period (1185–2016) of Forumquest. A samurai became masterless from the death or fall of his master, or after the loss of his master's favor or privilege.

[Skew]

Whoda thunk it?
More rules = more bitching.

[Cecily]

TattleQuest 2016

No, it's petition / fraps quest. Essentially the same thing. And it's been going on ALOT longer than 2016. It truly is the rotten core of all raiding here. Raid guilds, does it feel good to get your rivals suspended? Sure. But they are going to be back. This time with a chip on their shoulder just waiting for you to mess up yourself, and you will. Everytime this happens it reinforces the cycle of getting even. No sportsmanship.

[Fire Beetle]

No, it's petition / fraps quest. Essentially the same thing. And it's been going on ALOT longer than 2016. It truly is the rotten core of all raiding here. Raid guilds, does it feel good to get your rivals suspended? Sure. But they are going to be back. This time with a chip on their shoulder just waiting for you to mess up yourself, and you will. Everytime this happens it reinforces the cycle of getting even. No sportsmanship.

http://i.imgur.com/8OSAPZd.gif

[ridiculousmoose]

Unlikely they'd eat a suspension when the lead gm was the one that helped them do it...

[Vorkon]

Guilds should be recruiting 4-5 players in their guilds not for players with good personalities or specific classes, they need to be people who will spend 100% of their time dealing with raid issues, reviewing fraps, and breaking down the rules to their basic form to know what is an actual infraction.

I would assume that the higher tier guilds will be employing guys (high plat cost on retainer) who probably never log in, but work out of their parents garages, have expensive furniture, binders of p99 petition infractions from the TMO glory days (for case study/president) , and would put on suits to just cruise the forums and file/deal with petitions for their guilds. The Mid to Lower Tier guilds would be getting random ambulance chasing petition lawyers who could be hired on a case by case basis for basic things like stalls and trains.

I feel there is a market for this sort of thing and would happily stream this on twitch if we could get Sirken on a Judge Judy style show where one hour a weekly he would publicly deal with raid petitions. The entertainment factor would be legit awesome.

Seriously though, after 6 years of Petition/Lawyer Questing there shouldn't be any surprises that situations like this would occur. Its been this way forever, and will likely be this way forever.

[Cecily]

I would assume that the higher tier guilds will be employing guys (high plat cost on retainer) who probably never log in, but work out of their parents garages, have expensive furniture, binders of p99 petition infractions from the TMO glory days (for case study/president) , and would put on suits to just cruise the forums and file/deal with petitions for their guilds.

More or less what Unbrella did in TMO. And he was damned good at it.

[arsenalpow]

More or less what Unbrella did in TMO. And he was damned good at it.

Anichek is our guy for that in BDA. Staff and Guild Liaison.

[Spyder73]

Anichek is our guy for that in BDA. Staff and Guild Liaison.

he said the "higher tier guilds" fatbody. No one cares about BD-GAY

[arsenalpow]

Clever stuff

[quido]

Maybe if you people actually played SPORTS you might have some SPORTSMANSHIP!

[Teako]

Simple answer - perm ban any cuck who deliberately tries to manipulate rules for a personal advantage. Play by the rules, and play fair or don't play at all.

Velious should dropped without raid mobs.

[Kushie]

Maybe if you people actually played SPORTS you might have some SPORTSMANSHIP!

Wanna play tummy sticks?

[Gimp]

This thread had such potential

[ArumTP]

5 star thread

[Colgate]

not sure what's funnier

the issue that this thread was created upon

or the fact that you guys are willingly participating in this dumb shit

[Goliathan]

Word of the Law vs Spirit of the Law.

Imo it seems insane that any guild would retain rights to a target they have actively left in the zone with no force present. Would one not presume it means they had given up their attempt to go attempt something else?

Seems pretty...simple.

[Relbaic]

Word of the Law vs Spirit of the Law.

Imo it seems insane that any guild would retain rights to a target they have actively left in the zone with no force present. Would one not presume it means they had given up their attempt to go attempt something else?

Seems pretty...simple.

Seems simple until Siren comes in and rules thay FTE is king and other guilds need to gtfo.

[Relbaic]

*Sirken. Stupid phone

[falkun]

I like Siren better. Its loud, whiny, and when driving down the road gets what it wants. It seems to fit that sentence just fine, Relb.

[falkun]

And if you are talking the mythical creature, it lures men out into the ocean to die promising a better future, which still fits. You picked well.

[Goliathan]

Seems simple until Siren comes in and rules thay FTE is king and other guilds need to gtfo.

I know absolutely nothing about the raid politics interaction with GMs. I don't know the details beyond what I've read here. I raided in pop and luclin. Was never really interested prior.

Whatever the reason was for Sirken making the call id guess it made sense at the time because that was the word of the law. There was no clause. It would have been a "moral" decision for lack of a better word to tell them no you forfeit due to the fact you're killing other targets in other zones with none on KT.

It would make sense for this rule to be amended to not allow this situation. The raid meeting happened and in less than 48 hours we have loopholing. Which is good because it exposes the exploitable flaws but to defend the loophole is lol.

I'm sure Sirken knows what he's doing and hindsight is 20/20

[falkun]

Sirken doesn't have a clue. The loophole was pointed out by the same guild that exploited it last night a full week ago, yet it was not handled until it became an issue.
3/29:
20 minutes to engage kt imo
3/31:
How long are we assuming the winning guild has to engage statue or kt? Is it unlimited?
Why do we have to utilize hindsight when forethought caught this?

[Euth]

All these comments about the "spirit of the rule" are truly adorable. Please continue not realizing that spirit of the rule doesn't matter on this server and never will. You either followed the rule as it's written or you didn't. Aftermath did, tears ensue.

[falkun]

@Euth: Then why do the GM's keep proselytizing the "spirit of the rule"?
The most important thing here is the statement about the spirit of this rule stated above.
Note on Rule Lawyering – I think the spirit of everything we are trying to accomplish here is pretty clear, and anyone that tries to twist the words to support and/or justify nefarious actions that go against the spirit of the rules posted here will not be rewarded.
3) you can try to rule lawyer, but ill enforce the spirit of the rule regardless of how you try to twist/lawyer the words.
Here's a fantastic one specifically regarding stalling:
and when people submit frivolous petitions based on rule lawyering or split hairs, im not even going to deal with them unless i feel the spirit of the rule was broken, and that a guild actually engaged to prevent another guild from engaging.
And another that's in line with using Skype/Twitch to allow everyone to track:
Doing this, figuratively takes a big old dump on the entire purpose for the Staff telling the players we don’t want them poopsocking the raid spawn locations. We also do not want KoS trackers to be able to get afk FTE’s, as we feel this is more in line with using autofire, than it is in the spirit of the rules set forth, rules that, I will remind you, were all agreed on by the players.

Sirken wants the spirit of the rule enforced, then he actually asserts Aftermath's claim on KT and Statue while Aftermath had ZERO characters in zone? Sirken's going GreenGrocer on this server, but he still has power.

[Goliathan]

All these comments about the "spirit of the rule" are truly adorable. Please continue not realizing that spirit of the rule doesn't matter on this server and never will. You either followed the rule as it's written or you didn't. Aftermath did, tears ensue.

Your neckbeard must be majestic. Or maybe you just wish it was and cannot grow past the neck peach fuzz stage. Who knows! However attitudes like you're are why threads like this occur.

[Euth]

And Sirken's thoughts on this spirit rule in question?

[Swish]

Definitely a case for making more rules about the rules.

[Goliathan]

Definitely a case for making more rules about the rules.


I'd say more a case about better defining the given rule and not writing more. Less rules with very concrete wording would always be more preferable to tons of literature with tons of bullet points.

[Goliathan]

And Sirken's thoughts on this spirit rule in question?

Apparently it was fine. To me it seems silly but it doesn't impact me in the least. It may in the future. We will see if it gets any further clarification. To me zero in zone should = no claim on target in zone. It just seems like basic common sense.

[Ciroco]

And Sirken's thoughts on this spirit rule in question?

Based on last night, I think it's safe to say he has changed his mind.

[Spyder73]

It was all those songs I wrote for Sirken (can find in my sig) - he is an <Aftermath> shill now

[Jay F Kay]

http://i.imgur.com/1Xrk1WA.jpg

[Jay F Kay]

That was my reaction to your nerd arguments over elf sim pixels.

[ArumTP]

So I guess that's why you used to constantly switch characters in sky in Asgard

Elaborate?

[AnonymousFQ_099]

I know this is not at all an original thought but,
I cant help but picture this guy when I hear Detoxx talking, like in the raid summit recordings...

http://fashionablygeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/wow-guy-2.jpg

[Fifield]

I know this is not at all an original thought but,
I cant help but picture this guy when I hear Detoxx talking, like in the raid summit recordings...

http://fashionablygeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/wow-guy-2.jpg

How'd you find the picture of me!!

[manguard]

they're MY pixels and I need them NOW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY_ZP6gQiQ&feature=youtu.be&t=10s

[JboxCSU]

Lol fucking nerds.

Go outside.

[waffel]

Reading these threads as a functioning adult with a job and responsibilities is hilarious. Grown men fighting and arguing over pixsls.

[Tuljin]

not sure what's funnier

the issue that this thread was created upon

or the fact that you guys are willingly participating in this dumb shit

Right?

[VANVEM]

Just because Sirken stuck by the rule during repop, Doesn't mean they won't get hammered afterward. Regardless of if they stuck to the rule for obtaining the FTE, they broke the stalling rule, they can't twist it. they can try, but every single person that reads it knows its smells like shit!

[Cochonou]

Just because Sirken stuck by the rule during repop, Doesn't mean they won't get hammered afterward. Regardless of if they stuck to the rule for obtaining the FTE, they broke the stalling rule, they can't twist it. they can try, but every single person that reads it knows its smells like shit!

[Pezy]

Would love to see this happen after they not only had FTE people camped under the spawns before the mobs even popped, but also stalled both Statue and KT.

The fact that the CSR staff even thought the rule was a good idea and didn't think about a repop situation and how it would be abused is maybe the bigger crime.

It's great that Aftermath pretends to be the white knights that want to make it fair for lesser guilds to get mobs but then undermines the integrity of the rules to do the opposite.

https://gfycat.com/BabyishConsciousGannet

[Gimp]

Just because Sirken stuck by the rule during repop, Doesn't mean they won't get hammered afterward. Regardless of if they stuck to the rule for obtaining the FTE, they broke the stalling rule, they can't twist it. they can try, but every single person that reads it knows its smells like shit!

Instead of reaching so laughably hard, maybe you retards should just realize that you played lauaghbly bad on the repop and just play better next time?

[FatMice]

https://gfycat.com/BabyishConsciousGannet

Pezy was that a Parge Lenis?!?!

[VANVEM]

Instead of reaching so laughably hard, maybe you retards should just realize that you played lauaghbly bad on the repop and just play better next time?

A. Nobody is reaching:

Q12: What exactly does the Staff consider a stall?
A: As far as engage stalls, the Staff will grant you one DA, or about that much time on an engage before considering it a stall. So it’s important that guilds do not engage a mob until they are ready to kill it. The spirit of the rule (and what we are looking to do here) is to prevent guilds from locking up a target before they are ready to kill it, just to prevent other guilds that are ready to kill it first/faster. If you stall, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Any number of players can be considered to be stalling a mob, what we look for is the engage of the kill force. I know some of you want an exact number of seconds, or players, or DPS done, but the fact is that’s just not realistic with guilds being so vastly different in numbers and strength while also competing for the same content. The most important thing here is the statement about the spirit of this rule stated above.

This was from Sirken's latest update, even a 1st grader like yourself should be able to understand this. I can hear you arguing already that the "Kael rules don't state that, the Kael Rules were about FTE and 1 attempt, which may have taken some guilds longer than others, but it did not allow for stalling.

AND B. The only People laughing is Aftermath, because they got one over on the server. But did they? we'll see by the staff's response. but here is a quote to prove the Deliberate intent of this gesture.

Aftermath will be assuming that Spirit of Scale is the max speed and that intentionally leaving the mob up for an inordinate amount of time is unacceptable. If we get FTE, I think an hour is reasonable. If you are leaving the mob up longer than that, its safe to assume youre doing it just to break the spirit of the rule.

Considering you need 30 to kill statue, there is no reason to leave him up more than an hour. Also, whoever kills Statue, the 20 minute rule should still be in effect for AoW.

funny I notice Detoxx edited that particular quate but failed to indicate that that assumption was no longer valid, wonder why?

[Cochonou]

Instead of reaching so laughably hard, maybe you retards should just realize that you played lauaghbly bad on the repop and just play better next time?

[maskedmelon]

We don't need anymore rules. Staff just needs to start deleting characters for lack of common sense.

If you engage a target and do not attempt to start disposing of it immediately, your character should be deleted. Having one or more people weather an assault for an hot does not count as attempting to eliminate the target.

[Gimp]

I can't tell if you're legitimately retarded or just acting like it since you're too much of a pussy to post on your actual account.

I've seen 4-5 repops happen while I was on the pad waiting to race for xxx mob. Every Single time the screen starting shaking, the race to PD was on. Therefore, there is a set precedent on how races and repops are treated. To implement a penalty for this one would be saying every repop PD FTE was illegitimate.

[Sodors Finest Poster]

If Rogean woke up this morning and pulled the plug on this project how many cases of MaceQuest would I see in the news?

[VANVEM]

I can't tell if you're legitimately retarded or just acting like it since you're too much of a pussy to post on your actual account.

I've seen 4-5 repops happen while I was on the pad waiting to race for xxx mob. Every Single time the screen starting shaking, the race to PD was on. Therefore, there is a set precedent on how races and repops are treated. To implement a penalty for this one would be saying every repop PD FTE was illegitimate.

You failed reading comprehension, please quote and show me where i was talking about that? the issue i am addressing is the FTE and then leaving said mob up and not allowing others to kill said mob is a stall, I even said the FTE might have been legit, might not have been i wasnt there to see it.

and THIS is my real account.....you should try talking from an educated positon, it would make you seem more..... not dumb

[Freakish]

Y'all need Jesus. Raid rules are dumb but nothing was broken. Make better raid rules when this comes up again in 8 months.

[Gimp]

Yesterday it was omgerd you FTEd while past the zone

Today it's ermagerd what a stall, even though sirken was there watching ermagerdddd

How desperate you guys at this point?

[VANVEM]

nice deflection......


Didn't work

[Cochonou]

Yesterday it was omgerd you FTEd while past the zone

Today it's ermagerd what a stall, even though sirken was there watching ermagerdddd

How desperate you guys at this point?

Can't wait for tomorrow

[Gimp]

What exactly are you waiting for tomorrow?

[VANVEM]

Yesterday it was omgerd you FTEd while past the zone

Today it's ermagerd what a stall, even though sirken was there watching ermagerdddd

How desperate you guys at this point?

Just because Sirken was present for this, doesn't mean it was not in direct violation of the Server rules. And Even if he rules in Aftermath's favor, it is not unprecedented for Rogean to step in and tell him to issue a suspension.

[VANVEM]

What exactly are you waiting for tomorrow?

we are waiting for Aftermath to explain how this was not a stall and that this isnt against the server rules

they will, and they will be wrong

[TMBLOW]

I can't tell if you're legitimately retarded or just acting like it since you're too much of a pussy to post on your actual account.

I've seen 4-5 repops happen while I was on the pad waiting to race for xxx mob. Every Single time the screen starting shaking, the race to PD was on. Therefore, there is a set precedent on how races and repops are treated. To implement a penalty for this one would be saying every repop PD FTE was illegitimate.

What a dumb fucking red neck.

First off - no one cares about your 'good ol boy circle jerk player made ruleset from VP'. The server rules are very clear in terms of tracker FTE and Sirken has already said that quakes or sim repops follow the server's rules.

Q15: Are either of my two trackers allowed to get FTE?
A: Absolutely not. If one of your trackers gains FTE, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob.

Q16: Are we allowed to bind at raid mobs? And/or camp out toons at raid mobs?
A: Absolutely not.

Gimpster - Were you not Bind Sight into KT or Statue room during the screen shake? You have no excuse as to why you ran towards the spawn points without them actually even being up and available to contest.

Now I know its very exciting when you are wasted on bud light and your screen shakes but what I find odd is you feel that it is 'ok' to position yourself to aggro raid mobs that were not even spawned before anyone else who legitimately was competing. Seems legit right? Why couldnt the face trackers who were already in the room simply FTE under your logic? Just because they didnt race from the snow? Seems you are picking and choosing when to apply rules and which rules apply to you.

Another question for you- When you entered King Tormax's throne area was he even up? Was the throne occupied?

Do you have your fraps?

A petition is already being reviewed regarding your tracker FTE. It does not matter what you did years ago in VP when the ground shook, the fact remains that you left the starting line to 'race' for raid mobs that did not exist- you essentially were making yourself an additional face tracker watching the spawn.

Grats on not only stalling the shit out of these raid mobs so no other guilds could enjoy the repop and obtaining the rights to them illegitimately- truely a class act.

Dont worry though, I bet he will keep talking about VP precedent that set the gold standard for raiding here.

lol

[Samoht]

Today it's ermagerd what a stall

Second post in the thread:

They thought that they would ruleslawyer the FTE rule, but completely forgot about the stalling rule. Detoxx so dumb.

Gimp so dumb, too.

[Cochonou]

What exactly are you waiting for tomorrow?

So that you can rule lawyer my expectations?

[Gimp]

VP rules weren't player made, they've been GM enforced for a year or so.

Again, if what I did wasn't legit, he's saying every repop PD was against his tracker FTE rules. So he's either going to rule the way he always has in terms of repop races (no rules broken) or he's going to completely go against his established precedent and rule against it. We'll find out Friday. I have a feeling precedent will win out, as it should.

As far as a "stall", maybe you jerks should have addressed that in the 6 hours of whatever the fuck y'all talked about. I was told it was brought up and nobody would agree on anything, so this kinda stuff will inevitably happen.

Feel free to continue berging, it's keeping me busy at work at least.

PS, I drink Miller. Fuck Bud.

[VANVEM]

VP rules weren't player made, they've been GM enforced for a year or so.

As far as a "stall", maybe you jerks should have addressed that in the 6 hours of whatever the fuck y'all talked about. I was told it was brought up and nobody would agree on anything, so this kinda stuff will inevitably happen.



So if it wasn't brought up, existing rules apply, pretty simple

If Pint and Detox really wanted to make things better they would not have pulled this Bullshit stunt to try and strong arm the rest of the server. If that was truly their intention they should have brought this up and it would have prompted a discussion about it, instead they were vague and tried to be cute. You guys broke the rules, period.

[Gimp]

This is what happens when rulesets are too vague. I tried to tell y'all this kinda shit would happen.

[FatMice]

So if it wasn't brought up, existing rules apply, pretty simple

If Pint and Detox really wanted to make things better they would not have pulled this Bullshit stunt to try and strong arm the rest of the server. If that was truly their intention they should have brought this up and it would have prompted a discussion about it, instead they were vague and tried to be cute. You guys broke the rules, period.

Dude drop the bullshit and read Pints post. He, us, we want to work on making this server better; all while pushing the edge of content and approach. This week's earthquake was done with vague FTE rules on Statue and KT. All we are saying it make the rules direct, to the point, and clear. Until then, with everything in this world when shit is left open to interpretation there will be strong opinions from different perspectives.

[TMO so immersed]

Now I know its very exciting when you are wasted on bud light and your screen shakes but what I find odd is you feel that it is 'ok' to position yourself to aggro raid mobs that were not even spawned before anyone else who legitimately was competing

[VANVEM]

Dude drop the bullshit and read Pints post. He, us, we want to work on making this server better; all while pushing the edge of content and approach. This week's earthquake was done with vague FTE rules on Statue and KT. All we are saying it make the rules direct, to the point, and clear. Until then, with everything in this world when shit is left open to interpretation there will be strong opinions from different perspectives.

Dude, I have read his post, and to a certain extent i believe he has intentions that benefit everybody, differently, but still everybody. Cool! Kudos!!!

That Does not change the fact the the server rules were broke, intentionally!

Do I really think you guys should get a 10 day suspension, probably not, but you should be suspended and not just from one mob, Deliberately breaking the rules for spite, breaking the spirit of the rule? lets say Pint gets what he wants and we all live to a happy ending, well then consider yourself martyrs, who cares you deserved to be punished

[Cochonou]

This is what happens when rulesets are too vague. I tried to tell y'all this kinda shit would happen.

Prove it

[Gimp]

Prove it

Been telling all my old Ramppals that I talk to that this was gonna be a mess after the "summit", feel free to ask em.

[FatMice]

That Does not change the fact the the server rules were broke, intentionally!

As I am sure you are aware, but clearly are purposefully forgetting, Sirken was made aware of what happen by many officers in real time, from Aftermath, CSG, and hell I bet Awakened even asked what happen in regard to Kael on the earthquake.

Sirken, our head GM, made a ruling.

http://i.imgur.com/aoQkW.gif

[Gimp]

A batphone for anon accounts must have gone out. Phil's been MIA for a hot minute

[Nibblewitz]

10 days to be exact.

[FatMice]

Here's the thing about this and I might have to break it down so you can understand. You can find a loophole in every single raid rule that is ever placed forth.The fact that you openly called out the loophole, said you would not be using it, used it, then went back and said you are using it to point it out and make the raid scene better; makes you the asshole. You're making it worse by finding something in every rule you can take advantage of. You are this issue, if you abuse or find a loophole in every raid rule that is set, you might as well make it no rules.

Yes, Detoxx and Pint illuminated the holes in the current rule set and subsequently told you how we will operate under the current rules. While you're not surprised, you are pissed off because we acted without what we believe the rules state. Until a GM changes the rules, and makes it so we can't do it, we will continue to do so, as every high-end raiding guild does in any game.

Also in regard to Detoxx said we would give 1 hour.... I think you're in Awakened... so as stated by your guild rep....

If it's a temporary fix that's fine. But no one guild should be determining what is an inordinate amount of time to engage these raid mobs. Each guild will need varying amounts of clear, and prep time. Plus this is a rather unique opportunity for several guilds who haven't stepped too much into the Velious raid scene, I don't think allowing them to wait out an engage on Statue for a more prime time slot to have their best attendance on AoW is the end of the world.

Directly disagreeing with the time limit.

Detoxx directly after:

Well at this rate, every guild is going to do whatever they want since no one can come to simple agreements here. Cant wait for this meeting on Sunday....

If you can't read everything I'll reiterate; this what people do to try to get an edge over the competition. It happens in real life as it does in video games.

More importantly Nemce is correct, and I hope that this earthquake can show the flaws in the current rules.

[VANVEM]

[QUOTE=FatMice;2234509]As I am sure you are aware, but clearly are purposefully forgetting, Sirken was made aware of what happen by many officers in real time, from Aftermath, CSG, and hell I bet Awakened even asked what happen in regard to Kael on the earthquake.

Sirken, our head GM, made a ruling.

Really? So Sirken has never been wishy washy or reversed a decision?
So Rogean has never stepped in and issued a Suspension or had one issued?

So if all of the other guild leaders got together and followed server rules and sent PM's to rogean that a clear and concise server rule was broken here in a blatently and spiteful way it wouldn't make a difference?

What aftermath did with this one little trick is, they spat in the face of the server and staff, and that should not go unpunished, regardless of their motivations.

[Cochonou]

As I am sure you are aware, but clearly are purposefully forgetting, Sirken was made aware of what happen by many officers in real time, from Aftermath, CSG, and hell I bet Awakened even asked what happen in regard to Kael on the earthquake.

Sirken, our head GM, made a ruling.

Really? So Sirken has never been wishy washy or reversed a decision?
So Rogean has never stepped in and issued a Suspension or had one issued?

So if all of the other guild leaders got together and followed server rules and sent PM's to rogean that a clear and concise server rule was broken here in a blatently and spiteful way it wouldn't make a difference?

What aftermath did with this one little trick is, they spat in the face of the server and staff, and that should not go unpunished, regardless of their motivations.

[Swish]

10 days? That's enough to get at least 2 more alts to 60, I'm sure they'll keep busy.

[Relbaic]

[Wed Apr 06 03:50:01 2016] Moosejaw says out of character, 'Aftermath concedes Hoshkar'
[Wed Apr 06 03:50:14 2016] You say out of character, 'see you next week then'
[Wed Apr 06 03:52:24 2016] Moosejaw tells you, 'Any interest in joining forces right now?'

Gotta get dem pixels any way possible.

[FatMice]

[QUOTE=FatMice;2234509]As I am sure you are aware, but clearly are purposefully forgetting, Sirken was made aware of what happen by many officers in real time, from Aftermath, CSG, and hell I bet Awakened even asked what happen in regard to Kael on the earthquake.

Sirken, our head GM, made a ruling.

Really? So Sirken has never been wishy washy or reversed a decision?
So Rogean has never stepped in and issued a Suspension or had one issued?

So if all of the other guild leaders got together and followed server rules and sent PM's to rogean that a clear and concise server rule was broken here in a blatently and spiteful way it wouldn't make a difference?

What aftermath did with this one little trick is, they spat in the face of the server and staff, and that should not go unpunished, regardless of their motivations.

Dude you are delusional. We are telling you we want to work with the rest of the server to make it fair for all; to at least make a clear underling rule set. Otherwise we will continue to operate under server precedence.

I think I need to start writing some sort of disclaimer that these are my beliefs based on my discussions with my guildmates and leadership and that I am in way representing the officer core of Aftermath.

[FatMice]

Damn it. It looks like I am talking to my self and calling myself delusional. Lawl.

[Cochonou]

Dude you are delusional. We are telling you we want to work with the rest of the server to make it fair for all; to at least make a clear underling rule set. Otherwise we will continue to operate under server precedence.

I think I need to start writing some sort of disclaimer that these are my beliefs based on my discussions with my guildmates and leadership and that I am in way representing the officer core of Aftermath.

[Samoht]

We are telling you we want to work with the rest of the server to make it fair for all; to at least make a clear underling rule set. Otherwise we will continue to operate under server precedence.

I hope you realize the disparity between what you say and what you do.

[FatMice]

in no way*

[FatMice]

I hope you realize the disparity between what you say and what you do.

I think it is very clear. We operate as we believe is allowed under the rule-set of the server.

[TMBLOW]

It takes quite alot of spin to explain how Aftermath didnt break any rules on a racing ruleset the Aftermath Guild Leader came up with. If these instances the entire server witnessed were not such blatant stalling / spirit of rules / illegitimate FTE issues - do you think the community would care at all?

We already had two statue races prior and none of this was an issue - Aftermath already knew how these races were 'suppose' to operate and chose to rulelawyer THEIR interpretation of rule for the repop spawns namely for this round only choosing to focus on the direct written black and white words and not the intention for why the rule was there.

Detoxx proved once again he is the slimiest Guild leader on the box who will stop at nothing to lawyer, bully, and re-interpret any and all rules so his guild can be happy with their bottom line and update thread.

[Cochonou]

I think it is very clear. We operate as we believe is allowed under the rule-set of the server.

[Vorkon]

When Dain spawns after a failed ring war, the instant you see the 'Zone Repopping' message you get like 20 people halfway through the castle by the time he actually respawns.

I've seen a number of guilds do this. It hasn't been a petitioned or an issue before. Rumble is probably the same type thing. Add in the fact you had a bunch of bro's already socking for Statue.

Gimp's a good dude who I would pop my collar with at a bar and hit on divorced women with.

Throughout the annuals of the P99 lexicon the raid scene has always been about 'Rules and Intent' the grey area's that exist will always be there, if you raid and something isn't spelled out to the letter, there is only so much Sirken can do with enforcement. While reactionary, the only thing you can really do is address things as they come up and try to change the rules for the next spawn.

[VANVEM]

[QUOTE=VANVEM;2234530]

Dude you are delusional. We are telling you we want to work with the rest of the server to make it fair for all; to at least make a clear underling rule set. Otherwise we will continue to operate under server precedence.

I think I need to start writing some sort of disclaimer that these are my beliefs based on my discussions with my guildmates and leadership and that I am in way representing the officer core of Aftermath.

Dude! Read what I am typing and understand it, I have (for the sake of this discussion) conceded the fact that Detoxx, Pint, and the rest of aftermath are all sincere in what they are saying. and that they may VERY WELL have the best intentions here,but......

BUT YOU BROKE THE MOTHER FUCKING RULES! that fact hasn't changed, and in the most disrespectful way possible, if in fact you wanted to change things what they SHOULD have done is brought this very scenario up in the summit, they had the chance and if you go back and listen to it now, after the fact. it is blatantly obvious that they already had this planned. IF they had it would have been addressed, everyone of the GL's would have made damn sure they had. But by doing it this way, Pint is saying "see, I warned you"

Yep thats a great way to get people to trust in your motives, if Aftermath wants to Prove to the entire server that they mean what they are saying the Detoxx should approach the other GL's and offer a concession for stalling before a ruling comes down and ask that they all come back to the table to work out some real rules

[Samoht]

I think it is very clear. We operate as we believe is allowed under the rule-set of the server.

And the rest of us believe that you (your guild) wrote yourselves a loophole in the rule that you knew you were going to intentionally break on the next repop. Which goes entirely against what you're saying.

[TMBLOW]

When Dain spawns after a failed ring war, the instant you see the 'Zone Repopping' message you get like 20 people halfway through the castle by the time he actually respawns.

I've seen a number of guilds do this. It hasn't been a petitioned or an issue before. Rumble is probably the same type thing. Add in the fact you had a bunch of bro's already socking for Statue.


This is 100% false. No guild that is contesting Dain has more than 2 people past the zone line before the message. When the message appears the zone is instantly repopped ( unlike a repop which clearly any face tracker can inform the raiding parties when the mobs spawn just like every other time mobs spawn...)

But its 'ok' guys - Gimpster is a good dude that is fun to hang out at a bar with - he can break / make up his own rules and when they apply to him.

[Cochonou]

And the rest of us believe that you (your guild) wrote yourselves a loophole in the rule that you knew you were going to intentionally break on the next repop. Which goes entirely against what you're saying.

[Swish]

www.imgur.com <3

[Nibblewitz]

The $50,000 question is: "Who prompted Sirken to go into Kael and deliver the news to CSG?"

Did Sirken collude with Aftermath? Or did Aftermath notice CSG in Kael, then trick Sirken into handing down this ruling?

[FatMice]

[QUOTE=FatMice;2234542]

Dude! Read what I am typing and understand it, I have (for the sake of this discussion) conceded the fact that Detoxx, Pint, and the rest of aftermath are all sincere in what they are saying. and that they may VERY WELL have the best intentions here,but......

BUT YOU BROKE THE MOTHER FUCKING RULES! that fact hasn't changed, and in the most disrespectful way possible, if in fact you wanted to change things what they SHOULD have done is brought this very scenario up in the summit, they had the chance and if you go back and listen to it now, after the fact. it is blatantly obvious that they already had this planned. IF they had it would have been addressed, everyone of the GL's would have made damn sure they had. But by doing it this way, Pint is saying "see, I warned you"

Yep thats a great way to get people to trust in your motives, if Aftermath wants to Prove to the entire server that they mean what they are saying the Detoxx should approach the other GL's and offer a concession for stalling before a ruling comes down and ask that they all come back to the table to work out some real rules

Detoxx approached CSG on giving Statue loot to them. But I guess you didn't read those posts or care. We probably would have conceded State if it wasn't a repop; you know where for 4 hours we are racing to get to every mob we can. So with that mindset we needed Statue down to get to AoW.

And the rest of us believe that you (your guild) wrote yourselves a loophole in the rule that you knew you were going to intentionally break on the next repop. Which goes entirely against what you're saying.

What? Now you think we are whispering in Sirkens ear not tomake the rules clearer while publicly advocating for stricter rules?

[Gimp]

When Dain spawns after a failed ring war, the instant you see the 'Zone Repopping' message you get like 20 people halfway through the castle by the time he actually respawns.

I've seen a number of guilds do this. It hasn't been a petitioned or an issue before. Rumble is probably the same type thing. Add in the fact you had a bunch of bro's already socking for Statue.

Gimp's a good dude who I would pop my collar with at a bar and hit on divorced women with.

Throughout the annuals of the P99 lexicon the raid scene has always been about 'Rules and Intent' the grey area's that exist will always be there, if you raid and something isn't spelled out to the letter, there is only so much Sirken can do with enforcement. While reactionary, the only thing you can really do is address things as they come up and try to change the rules for the next spawn.

I dunno who this is, but I'll bro out with you bro

[quido]

break out the duck tape and suffocate yourselves

[Vorkon]

This is 100% false.

No not false. Having been there for multiple failed Dain ring war spawns, of which any number of us are running fraps for, has been happening for a while (less so now that people are actually completing the the war).

Regular 16 hour window Dain you get the 2 trackers, you are kidding yourself if you think this happens on the ring war Dain. Where you'll have your 2 trackers already set up, and a whole slew of people taking off through the castle at the respawn message regardless that he spawns shortly thereafter.

[Bones]

Just wait until Velious is released. That'll fix the raid scene.

[VANVEM]

[QUOTE=VANVEM;2234563]

Detoxx approached CSG on giving Statue loot to them. But I guess you didn't read those posts or care. We probably would have conceded State if it wasn't a repop; you know where for 4 hours we are racing to get to every mob we can. So with that mindset we needed Statue down to get to AoW.



What? Now you think we are whispering in Sirkens ear not tomake the rules clearer while publicly advocating for stricter rules?

ok Truth time, i will admit that the gesture to CSG was a good one, and its why i said i didnt think a 10 day ban was in order, but the spiritin which this little lesson was concieved, and executed is not in the spirit of what was trying to be accomplished

so again, if you mean what you say, do a concession, and ask everybody back to the table. Then negotiate in good faith to make the server a better place for all (including yourselves) then you can call yourselves the saviors of the server, but if you don't nobody will believe a damn thing you say

[Samoht]

Okay, you two idiots need to learn how to properly quote already.

[Cecily]

Spirit of the rules. We summon thee. Was what Aftermath did illegal?

http://i.imgur.com/cA4fXN8.jpg

[TMBLOW]

No not false. Having been there for multiple failed Dain ring war spawns, of which any number of us are running fraps for, has been happening for a while (less so now that people are actually completing the the war).

Regular 16 hour window Dain you get the 2 trackers, you are kidding yourself if you think this happens on the ring war Dain. Where you'll have your 2 trackers already set up, and a whole slew of people taking off through the castle at the respawn message regardless that he spawns shortly thereafter.

Because when the message in Icewell/Thurg hits - the zone instantly repops which is directly the opposite of what happens when a simulated repop or earthquake hits. The earthquake message 'warns' people that mobs are about to appear and advises people to seek safety. Icewell simply says "Zone Respawn" aka the normal system message for a zone repop. The mobs are avail for contesting when the system message appears.

There are people poopsocking Dain for Ring turn ins who are affiliated with various guilds but you will notice they are untagged as per the accepted server behavior for quest turn ins. These players should not be confused for players going for FTE - however I can tell these distinctions might be difficult for you.

Show us the fraps that prove your stance, until then you are 100% wrong and obviously hilariously uninformed. Enjoy your beers with Gimp tho ;)

[Vorkon]

Guess people CotHing early because they were off a few seconds on the fail timers doesn't happen or raids moving to the Ice Bridge early before FTE occurs doesn't happen either?

You are fooling yourself if you don't think 'Letter of the Rule' violations occur on just about every failed ring war Dain repop. Or sitting there spam hailing Dain while you set the aggro/banish/summon table, seeing him run back into the castle then back to the raid followed by the 'stall' tells and ooc pissing contests.

We see this stuff all the time.

[Samoht]

Guess people CotHing early because they were off a few seconds on the fail timers doesn't happen or raids moving to the Ice Bridge early before FTE occurs doesn't happen either?

You're not going to be able to excuse this infraction by listing previous infractions.

[Vorkon]

You're not going to be able to excuse this infraction by listing previous infractions.

I'm not. I think most guilds should probably be sitting on 2-3 infractions every time a Raid spawn happens, I don't think Hokushin and Detoxx were pal's by any means, but they seemed to work things out 90% of the time between each other.

A simple rule adjustment of only being to engage FTE'd 1 mob at a time or setting a 20 minute kill timer after FTE would alleviate some of this stuff.

There's basically 3 issues going on in this.

1) Aftermath getting FTE, bailing, then coming back while the timer was still running where no one else could engage the mob. Sirken still gave the mob to Aftermath and enforced the rules as stated. Simple rules tweaks mentioned above would fix.

2) How/when Gimpster got FTE. The outcome was Sirken enforcing the FTE and letting Aftermath have the mob.

3) Pint/Detoxx bringing up the raid rules about timers and how long guilds have to kill things before the raid summit, not having them addressed in any meaningful way, then going ahead and doing things how the rules are currently written.

My point is you see people doing all sorts of infractions of raids that never seem to amount to anything. I'm sure those ripping on Aftermath have already got petitions going and their supporting evidence posted, but we won't find out for a while what punishment gets dolled out.

[Samoht]

I'm not.

Right. So you are:

My point is you see people doing all sorts of infractions of raids that never seem to amount to anything.

[TMBLOW]

Guess people CotHing early because they were off a few seconds on the fail timers doesn't happen or raids moving to the Ice Bridge early before FTE occurs doesn't happen either?

You are fooling yourself if you don't think 'Letter of the Rule' violations occur on just about every failed ring war Dain repop. Or sitting there spam hailing Dain while you set the aggro/banish/summon table, seeing him run back into the castle then back to the raid followed by the 'stall' tells and ooc pissing contests.

We see this stuff all the time.

Lol so the story changes

First off - theres no rule that you have to wait for 'FTE' before you can move beyond the zones when raid mobs are up. You DO have to however wait for the mobs to actually spawn before you can set forth to contest the FTE. This is what Gimpster failed to do properly.

You are also currently failing at your comprehension of what the rules are. COTHing 'early' so that the FTEer lands at Dain's feet when hes up is not illegal. You can start a COTH spell whenever you like so long that when the FTEer is not summoned before Dain pops. If hes summoned before the raid mob had appeared it would fall under 'tracker FTE' much like what Gimpster did on the repop spawns.

If you have evidence of guilds breaking a rule as you describe please post it.

[Vorkon]

Right. So you are:

I guarantee you next week they'll be a bunch of petitions going out against all raiding guilds again. So I don't see how I am excusing anyone's behavior. I addressed the Gimp thing, I addressed the Aftermath leaving thing, I addressed what a shit show raiding is.

I merely posted because you can read through this thread and see that people expected the latest guild summit thing and rule changes to fix things. My first post in this thread was about how given the nature of p99 raiding its the same stuff over and over again.

I happen to be cool with Gimp so I think that bugs our local RnF dwellers. I'm not raiding and havent been for about 3 weeks, so if Aftermath eats a 10day suspension over this I would expect every infraction that guilds accrue to start eating suspensions as well. Things in the past that guild leaders would work out between themselves aren't going to be talked about and its right to petition quest as there is no reason to work things out as its easier to just get your competition suspended.

[Gimp]

You can play the tracker FTE bullshit angle all you want, but you've yet to tell me how what I did is any different than winning a PD FTE race on a repop. Until you do that, you're just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks.

[TMBLOW]

Its cool P99 community, anything that applied and governed VP Phara Dar repop races of years past are now the gold standard for our current server rules and should be never questioned since only the most privildeged even raced for stupid PD years ago.

Am I rite?

[Gimp]

Exactly the pussified passive aggressive response I was expecting.

[Legday]

If you want to call out Gimp on racing when the ground shook as opposed to waiting until Tormax actually appeared, then you sir, are the Lord of rule lawyering.

Everybody knows there is a slight delay on the mobs actually popping. Nobody knows exactly what it is. With PD it was never an issue because the run up to PD takes awhile so he had already popped when the racers arrived. Nobody has done that since Velious dropped because if you're on the pad in VP when there is an earthquake you say fuck PD and get to Velious. It doesn't mean it isn't the rule still in effect.

Lots of nerd rage in this thread. Sirken OK'd exactly what we did in Kael. Get over what happened and start thinking of ways to work with us on fixing it going forward, as many of us have said in the last 2 days.

[TMBLOW]

who is rule lawyering? You guys are the ones citing PD race tactics during the old ass VP class system as a basis for Gimpster to ignore posted server rules today

I am just pointing out how he did not follow clearly listed infractions - you guys are digging up court cases ...Guyz PD Repop Race precedent set precedent!!!!

Class act.

[Batso]

Additionally, petitioning a guild (that in this case was following the rules) with the intent to get them suspended is likely to backfire and get your own team suspended. You're welcome.

[Sodors Finest Poster]

You have to wait behind the gate. For example, this was taken a split second before the rumble at the Balahoo zone line for a Thomas fte'r.

http://i.imgur.com/jKux8Na.jpg

[Samoht]

Additionally, petitioning a guild (that in this case was following the rules) with the intent to get them suspended is likely to backfire and get your own team suspended. You're welcome.

We've got two infractions against Aftermath, though. 1) leaving the start too early (before KT popped) and 2) stalling (not allowed to leave the zone after you FTE). Even though they clearly broke two different rules on the same engage, I would settle to punish them as one infraction together. Agree to sit out next two KTs or eat 10 day ban and have loot deleted.

[TMBLOW]

Lots of nerd rage in this thread. Sirken OK'd exactly what we did in Kael. Get over what happened and start thinking of ways to work with us on fixing it going forward, as many of us have said in the last 2 days.

Spin spin spin! This is also false. Sirken "OKd" the Aftermath first attempts on the basis on his encounter logs showing your guild with FTE.

He was not aware Gimpster violated the race rules by starting early before any mobs were spawned nor is he aware that Gimpster waited near the spawn point to FTE in a similar fashion as any face tracker being near a spawn and acquiring an engage.

Yes Sirken OKd the attempts but he was not given a clear full picture what happened. Not only did Aftermath cheat to acquire FTE but they abused the spirit of the new rules stalling the encounter keeping their FTE claim while not in zone.

Seems legit to me - Sirken is now being made aware of the situation to what lead to the FTEs and it would behoove you guys to consider sitting out some Kael mobs if you feel sharing and equal chance at mobs are important aspects to your raiding community

[FatMice]

Spin spin spin! This is also false. Sirken "OKd" the Aftermath first attempts on the basis on his encounter logs showing your guild with FTE.

He was not aware Gimpster violated the race rules by starting early before any mobs were spawned nor is he aware that Gimpster waited near the spawn point to FTE in a similar fashion as any face tracker being near a spawn and acquiring an engage.

Yes Sirken OKd the attempts but he was not given a clear full picture what happened. Not only did Aftermath cheat to acquire FTE but they abused the spirit of the new rules stalling the encounter keeping their FTE claim while not in zone.

Seems legit to me - Sirken is now being made aware of the situation to what lead to the FTEs and it would behoove you guys to consider sitting out some Kael mobs if you feel sharing and equal chance at mobs are important aspects to your raiding community

Tell me exactly how you know this as fact. I really want to know. Otherwise you have absolutely no merit.

[TMBLOW]

I have no merit to my claim that Sirken made an uninformed ruling?

are you stupid?

[Samoht]

are you stupid?

That's self-evident at this point. Or are you asking rhetorically?

[FatMice]

I am of the mindset that Sirken only rules on yellow text and his rule set. A vague rule set means inconsistent rulings. I think everyone can agree this has and continues to happen. Everything outside of that, as you mentioned ie. not having the full picture is here-say because he never has the full picture and frankly he probably doesn't want to have to hear every angle to even get the full picture. There are too many opinions. That the fucking glorious point of making a stronger, tighter rule set.

[Troxx]

We don't need anymore rules. Staff just needs to start deleting characters for lack of common sense.

If you engage a target and do not attempt to start disposing of it immediately, your character should be deleted. Having one or more people weather an assault for an hot does not count as attempting to eliminate the target.

QFT

Like I said ... if you want to stop the drama on this server, simplify the rules and start laying down the law hardcore.

Make CoTH/ducking illegal for FTE purposes.

Any FTE that doesn't result in a direct engage by a capable and ready raid force illegal.


Guild breaks a rule? 30 day ban off ALL raid targets.

No more pansy 5-7 or 10 day slaps on the wrist. Break a major rule and you're out for a fucking month.

Violation involving raid targets while banned from raid targets? Permanently ban the accounts of any character involved.


What do you want to bet that if those rules were put in place all the shenaningans would stop immediately?

The quest for pixels via dubious means would result in loss of all pixels ... all neckbeards would stop playing pussyfoot with the rules.

I'd wager 1 guild would eat the banhammer and everyone would magically learn to get along. If they didn't get along, they'd be banned.

Content would open up, and the game would thrive for the rest of the server.

Too much bullshit goes on at the high end. Raid scene on blue is incredibly toxic.

[FatMice]

Raid scene on blue is incredibly toxic.

I think it is better than ever.

[Kileras]

I think it is better than ever.

i think about 6 of 8 remotely invested raiding guilds are about done with it at this point. I am well aware that it is hard for anyone else to understand where the big A's are coming from when they discuss desires/intent/the scene they want... but if 3/4 of the people participating think things are pretty horrendous I don't think the notion of "play it our way or find a different box" really hold up.

[falkun]

Sirken OK'd exactly what we did in Kael. Get over what happened and start thinking of ways to work with us on fixing it going forward, as many of us have said in the last 2 days.
Your guild leader, Detoxx, stating how long the FTE should be available:
If we get FTE, I think an hour is reasonable. If you are leaving the mob up longer than that, its safe to assume youre doing it just to break the spirit of the rule.

Considering you need 30 to kill statue, there is no reason to leave him up more than an hour.
How long was Statue and KT up after Aftermath's FTE's?

Also, Sirken defines a stall:
Q12: What exactly does the Staff consider a stall?
A: As far as engage stalls, the Staff will grant you one DA, or about that much time on an engage before considering it a stall. So it’s important that guilds do not engage a mob until they are ready to kill it. The spirit of the rule (and what we are looking to do here) is to prevent guilds from locking up a target before they are ready to kill it, just to prevent other guilds that are ready to kill it first/faster. If you stall, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Any number of players can be considered to be stalling a mob, what we look for is the engage of the kill force. I know some of you want an exact number of seconds, or players, or DPS done, but the fact is that’s just not realistic with guilds being so vastly different in numbers and strength while also competing for the same content. The most important thing here is the statement about the spirit of this rule stated above.
And Sirken defines how you drop a valid FTE:
Q10: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited, stalled, or occupied?
A: It is against server policy to indefinitely kite, stall, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of killing it. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stalling of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild/party, is against the rules. Ignorance is not an excuse to break this rule, if you are pulling raid targets, we expect you to know what you’re doing.

According to Sirken's own raid rules, Aftermath lost their FTE when they zoned out per rule 10, and Aftermath commited a raid infraction punishable by 10 day full suspension for stalling per the updated rule 12 by engaging a mob before they were ready to kill it.

Sirken is a moron for the way he enforced the FTE, it goes against the "spirit of the rules" he claims are so important to the rules he's laid out. He has ruined any credit for his own rules with the way he enforced it in Kael.

[Sodors Finest Poster]

You'll be more content when some time from now members/leaders of the top two guilds lose their employment and their families over the Velious pixel sickness.

[Vallanor]

Too much bullshit goes on at the high end. Raid scene on blue is incredibly toxic.

Aside from inflation issues, this server is absolutely fantastic pre-60. Groups are plentiful, dungeon crawling is fun and classic as hell, and people are generally helpful and pleasant to be around.

In contrast, the high-end raid scene is a weird blend of non-classic mechanics, overpopulation, complicated rules, and a win-at-all-costs mentality. Toxic doesn't begin to describe it. I really cannot believe people actually enjoy high end Velious "competition."

[Sodors Finest Poster]

Nerf Clicky Recharging.

[Cecily]

Nerf Clicky Recharging.

[arsenalpow]

Here's the bottom line, and everyone knows I hate Detoxx, but Aftermath didn't do anything illegal this time. It may have been grimy to ice Tormax after getting FTE but it was within the rules because the rule was shitty. It's perfectly normal to take off the second the ground shakes. I've seen multiple VP footraces under those exact same circumstances.

I don't like the ruling, I don't like Detoxx and his short bus crew, but they are legally in the clear on this one. They just suck as human beings, but I guess being pixel rich is worth it?

[TMBLOW]

This thread has become laughable. I can assure you Aftermath will not be conceding anything based off a ridiculous RNF thread. Feel free to have your leadership come to the table to try to iron out the FTE rule and for what it's worth, Awakened also ran as soon as the ground rumbled. Maybe you can start a separate thread to try to get them suspended to in RNF!

Except your team got illegal FTE and those runners who started early from Awakened did not.

Pretty big difference there but continue to stick your head in the sand when it comes to following basic server rules.

Looking forward to the future Kael concessions since you guys


Aftermath (of which I can speak for), attempt to abide by them 100% of the time

[Gimp]

Here's the bottom line, and everyone knows I hate Detoxx, but Aftermath didn't do anything illegal this time. It may have been grimy to ice Tormax after getting FTE but it was within the rules because the rule was shitty. It's perfectly normal to take off the second the ground shakes. I've seen multiple VP footraces under those exact same circumstances.

Agreeing with you makes me feel grimy

[arsenalpow]

Agreeing with you makes me feel grimy

You may not like my politics but I'm not going to just blatantly frame y'all if there's no basis for it. Y'all do plenty of grimy and/or illegal shit so I won't have to wait long for an actual reason to bitch.

[TMBLOW]

I'm sure you'll try to spin it regardless to attempt to get yourself free mobs.

Who is spinning? Most people here are just asking for Aftermath to man up and admit they fucked up.

We all make mistakes - are these dirty pixels ( which your guild acquires plenty of ) worth not simply doing whats right and accepting you messed up?

[Kodim]

It's like everyone here forgets that Sirken is a big boy and can make his own rulings, for the rule he created.

What the fuck.

[Gimp]

Sirken already made his ruling as this was happening, this is just a thread full of salty ass Awakened vaginas attempting anything and everything they can to find some minute raid infraction. Its pretty pathetic honestly, but this last hour of work might go by faster if they keep posting this lulzy shit

[FatMice]

You may not like my politics but I'm not going to just blatantly frame y'all if there's no basis for it. Y'all do plenty of grimy and/or illegal shit so I won't have to wait long for an actual reason to bitch.

Right now I love your politics. Also with this said; Detoxx does have the House of Cards ring tone on his phone for texts.

[arsenalpow]

Sirken already made his ruling as this was happening, this is just a thread full of salty ass Awakened vaginas attempting anything and everything they can to find some minute raid infraction. Its pretty pathetic honestly, but this last hour of work might go by faster if they keep posting this lulzy shit

I doubt it's awakened people, it's likely the little guys aftermath dunked on.

[Gimp]

I doubt it's awakened people, it's likely the little guys aftermath dunked on.

Most of these anon accounts belong to old Rampage peeps. Been seeing em for a while. Pretty sure I know who they are as well.

[arsenalpow]

Right now I love your politics. Also with this said; Detoxx does have the House of Cards ring tone on his phone for texts.

I figured it would be "It's time to slay the dragon!" (http://youtu.be/F-CHG_To7Ag)

[TMBLOW]

its cool guys Sirken snapped ruled in our favor without full story, we are absolved of any wrong doing - thats what woulda happened in VP !

[Gimp]

its cool guys Sirken snapped ruled in our favor without full story, we are absolved of any wrong doing - thats what woulda happened in VP !

Ahhhhh, I definitely know who this one is now.

[Ciroco]

I bicker with my competition on RnF so much that I can tell who owns each alt account based on what topics they like to whine about

[Gimp]

I bicker with my competition on RnF so much that I can tell who owns each alt account based on what topics they like to whine about

Or I was builder with most of em for a year or more

Either works

[Gimp]

Guilded with*

Fuckin autocorrect

[Legday]

Here's the bottom line, and everyone knows I hate Detoxx, but Aftermath didn't do anything illegal this time. It may have been grimy to ice Tormax after getting FTE but it was within the rules because the rule was shitty. It's perfectly normal to take off the second the ground shakes. I've seen multiple VP footraces under those exact same circumstances.

I don't like the ruling, I don't like Detoxx and his short bus crew, but they are legally in the clear on this one. They just suck as human beings, but I guess being pixel rich is worth it?

Yikes. You anonymous forum accounts are doing such a bad job that you inadvertantly caused Chest to come on here and take Aftermath's side. Take a lap.

[Gimp]

Yikes indeed

[TMBLOW]

Chest gave us the 'OK' sign and unwritten precedent occurred in VP - we're in the clear boys! Thanks for adopting our leader's rule-set Sirken!

- Aftermath

[Batso]

Everyone ran off the line in KC when the earthquake happened after the velious release date was announced.

[VANVEM]

Here's the bottom line, and everyone knows I hate Detoxx, but Aftermath didn't do anything illegal this time. It may have been grimy to ice Tormax after getting FTE but it was within the rules because the rule was shitty. It's perfectly normal to take off the second the ground shakes. I've seen multiple VP footraces under those exact same circumstances.

I don't like the ruling, I don't like Detoxx and his short bus crew, but they are legally in the clear on this one. They just suck as human beings, but I guess being pixel rich is worth it?

I'll take your word on the FTE, but you or anyone of the people here from aftermath please show me where in the "new" kael rules it changes:

Q12: What exactly does the Staff consider a stall?
A: As far as engage stalls, the Staff will grant you one DA, or about that much time on an engage before considering it a stall. So it’s important that guilds do not engage a mob until they are ready to kill it. The spirit of the rule (and what we are looking to do here) is to prevent guilds from locking up a target before they are ready to kill it, just to prevent other guilds that are ready to kill it first/faster. If you stall, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Any number of players can be considered to be stalling a mob, what we look for is the engage of the kill force. I know some of you want an exact number of seconds, or players, or DPS done, but the fact is that’s just not realistic with guilds being so vastly different in numbers and strength while also competing for the same content. The most important thing here is the statement about the spirit of this rule stated above.

Please do not respond with They didn't answer or they said unlimited time, neither of those addresses the fact that FTE was gained with no intent to engage. Which according to Sirken's raid rule is The spirit of the rule

so with that said, what they did was NOT entirely legal. Again I don't think it warrants a 10 day suspenson, but allowing someone to "teach the server a lesson" by Blatantly breaking the Spirit of the Rule. has to be the Absofuckinglutley worst thing we could do to try and make the server a better place.

[sheepshop]

If you listened at all you would know that the kael race and die idea was adopted to prevent training around mobs that one shot you in a super populated zone.

[Kodim]

I think we need to continue arguing about vague rules, to the guy who created and approved the rules himself.

Might get somewhere.

[Loke]

Never thought I'd say this, but gotta respect Chest for not trying to take advantage of this situation. People trying to turn everything they don't like into a raid suspension are just as bad as people looking for every way possible to bend the rules - both sides contribute to the ridiculous lawyer questing that has developed on this server. This situation was clearly not how the rule was intended to be interpreted, but it also didn't break any rules and could have easily been avoided.

People need to stop acting like children. Instead of looking for solutions half the people in here are just cranky and out for their pound of flesh. I havent been involved with raid disputes for years, but back when I handled GM stuff for DA we never had problems working stuff out because I was dealing with people like Xz, Cyrano and Ektar, who were able to be objective even when they felt they were wronged. When we accidentally trained them, they'd often take us at our word and we'd return the favor when they did it to us. If all youre concerned with is how you can use the present situation to your own benefit, you're never going to be able to work shit out with your competition. Instead of bitching, maybe try working with people - especially when they're openly asking for help clarifying the rule in question.

Or just keep lawyer questing and make things worse. I don't speak for Aftermath in any capacity, but any time a guild I was in got hit with a BS suspension, it just motivated everyone to double down on lawyer questing in an attempt to get their competition suspended for similar BS.

[arsenalpow]

This servers high end raid scene is built with the bricks of shitting on rules, both the actual rules and spirit of the rules. What happened the other day is just par for the course man. Why argue about it?

[Ella`Ella]

This servers high end raid scene is built with the bricks of shitting on rules, both the actual rules and spirit of the rules. What happened the other day is just par for the course man. Why argue about it?

Because there aren't supposed to be these rules beyond the basics of KSing/Training/Ninja Looting. The game wasn't engineered to have all this player and staff intervention. You're creating an artificial raid environment to try and float more guilds at the top than the game is meant to support.

[ArumTP]

http://i.imgur.com/y9I8672.gif

[arsenalpow]

Because there aren't supposed to be these rules beyond the basics of KSing/Training/Ninja Looting. The game wasn't engineered to have all this player and staff intervention. You're creating an artificial raid environment to try and float more guilds at the top than the game is meant to support.

Emulated non-classic server seeking to replicate a classic experience. Gotta tweak some shit. Stop being dense.

[Loke]

Because there aren't supposed to be these rules beyond the basics of KSing/Training/Ninja Looting. The game wasn't engineered to have all this player and staff intervention. You're creating an artificial raid environment to try and float more guilds at the top than the game is meant to support.

I blame Unbrella for the current state of lawyer quest. Back in my day everquest law was a noble practice pursued by only the most respected gentlemen. Now we've got all these big guild lawyers running around with their diploma mill law degrees... its just plain uncivilized.

[dafier]

People need to stop acting like children.

This.

[PureLo]

So when is the new server coming out to split the population of play styles since a class system obviously doesn't seem feasible?

No discord, may as well open a second current state server with /movelog for accounts. That seems to be the only way anything progressive will get done considering 2010-2011 raiding will never seem to happen again as even Sirken himself stated would like to see happen where respect and decency were at the forefront and not this current level of ridiculousness that somehow continues to elevate.

[Samoht]

Because there aren't supposed to be these rules beyond the basics of KSing/Training/Ninja Looting.

So after everything, you're saying that what Awakened did was worse than what Aftermath? Typical deflection!

[Ella`Ella]

Emulated non-classic server seeking to replicate a classic experience. Gotta tweak some shit. Stop being dense.

It's not being dense, it's being realistic. I'm not advocating for either of the top guilds - I don't care about either of them. But you can't tell me that every time I/we/they/us/whoever tries to 'tweak' something, it doesn't come with a laundry list of unintended consequences. And, those unintended consequences are a result of us trying to support this artificial raid scene.

Throughout my time here I've come to figure there are only two real solutions;

A) Eliminate most of the rules and let the two largest guilds of knit-wits battle each other into attrition and winner takes all/the server goes back into a dark age where a single guild controls all content, or

B) Rotations (with very high barriers to entry)

And though I haven't actually played blue in well over a year now, I'm not sure which of the two options I would prefer anymore.

[dafier]

I blame Unbrella for the current state of lawyer quest. Back in my day everquest law was a noble practice pursued by only the most respected gentlemen. Now we've got all these big guild lawyers running around with their diploma mill law degrees... its just plain uncivilized.

University of Phoenix

Western Governors

and more ....

All a fine way to get a piece of paper that means something to few industry companies. :D

[Ella`Ella]

So after everything, you're saying that what Awakened did was worse than what Aftermath? Typical deflection!

No, clown. I was responding to Chest's post in a vacuum. And, you can't come at me in RnF - we're listed as friends on the forums.

[nicemace]

I'll take your word on the FTE, but you or anyone of the people here from aftermath please show me where in the "new" kael rules it changes:

Q12: What exactly does the Staff consider a stall?
A: As far as engage stalls, the Staff will grant you one DA, or about that much time on an engage before considering it a stall. So it’s important that guilds do not engage a mob until they are ready to kill it. The spirit of the rule (and what we are looking to do here) is to prevent guilds from locking up a target before they are ready to kill it, just to prevent other guilds that are ready to kill it first/faster. If you stall, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Any number of players can be considered to be stalling a mob, what we look for is the engage of the kill force. I know some of you want an exact number of seconds, or players, or DPS done, but the fact is that’s just not realistic with guilds being so vastly different in numbers and strength while also competing for the same content. The most important thing here is the statement about the spirit of this rule stated above.

Please do not respond with They didn't answer or they said unlimited time, neither of those addresses the fact that FTE was gained with no intent to engage. Which according to Sirken's raid rule is The spirit of the rule

so with that said, what they did was NOT entirely legal. Again I don't think it warrants a 10 day suspenson, but allowing someone to "teach the server a lesson" by Blatantly breaking the Spirit of the Rule. has to be the Absofuckinglutley worst thing we could do to try and make the server a better place.



they didn't break shit. the rules of kael is foot race > get FTE > take a casual amount of time to setup and kill the mob you won the rights to have first attempt. its not a stall. it doesn't even come close to that rule.

the rules are retarded. they were just playing by the rules. no rules are going to fix this server. the raid scene needs a change in dynamic away from classic... but the staff wont do that so enjoy.

ps im not in aftermath

[dafier]

B) Rotations (with very high barriers to entry)


I just want to point this out. Velious....and up to end game PoP, the Povar server had a sorta rotation set up by the top guilds. The top guild being Triton.

I remember they said they would rotate NTOV to a guild that can down Sontalak. And, they kept to their word. Over all, rotations worked for the most part on that live server. I remember, I was there.

I also believe that almost all the top raiding guild's leaders would agree to this. Except for a select 1 or 2. Especially after listening to the round table and Sirken talk for 5 hours.