Cucumbers v Detoxx: An Epic Wiki Battle

[Raev]

http://wiki.project1999.com/index.php?title=Sceptre_of_Destruction

[Herpa Derp]

Detoxx vs an actual cucumber. I would pay to see that.

[Freakish]

Theres a few wiki wars. I remember the war of server first, that was fun. Constantly changing who got credit for AoW, adding redundant item loot server firsts, removing them, etc. It's probably still going on.

[zanderklocke]

I deleted a bunch of the server first page stuff for the reason of it being nonsense.

[Freakish]

Personally I would delete every Vulak server first drop because nobody gives a shit and it just crowds up the page.

[Zekayy]

Personally I would delete every Vulak server first drop because nobody gives a shit and it just crowds up the page.


That Gharns Rock from vulak

[quido]

SoD overrated and your tanks aren't even aware enough to realize it. Epic MH is better aggro. This server is broken.

[Raev]

I'm afraid I don't hold your opinion on anything involving randomness and probability in very high regard Jeremy.

P.S. Where's my 1M pp

[Freakish]

That Gharns Rock from vulak

I don't care. Maybe members of your guild do because you believe it drove Rampage into a rage and we woke the sleeper because of it? I don't know. I wasn't there. It's the same level of pettiness that i'm talking about. Changing AoW from rampage server first to rampage/taken/asgard back and forth. Adding a SEPERATE AoW kill from 100% to 0%. Deleting certain items, like Lendrita's Talisman from server first, adding in random NToV loot, deleting loot.

Yes there's BiS items all throughout NToV but there's only a few notable items. I would say Gharn's ranks up there as one of them but I think i'm biased. I love monk armor in velious. It all looks so good. If I made my own list of "notable server first items" I would have stuck like 5 monk items over anything else.

[quido]

I'm afraid I don't hold your opinion on anything involving randomness and probability in very high regard Jeremy.

P.S. Where's my 1M pp

I'm very good at math and sports.

[Cecily]

I don't care. Maybe members of your guild do because you believe it drove Rampage into a rage and we woke the sleeper because of it? I don't know. I wasn't there. It's the same level of pettiness that i'm talking about. Changing AoW from rampage server first to rampage/taken/asgard back and forth. Adding a SEPERATE AoW kill from 100% to 0%. Deleting certain items, like Lendrita's Talisman from server first, adding in random NToV loot, deleting loot.

Yes there's BiS items all throughout NToV but there's only a few notable items. I would say Gharn's ranks up there as one of them but I think i'm biased. I love monk armor in velious. It all looks so good. If I made my own list of "notable server first items" I would have stuck like 5 monk items over anything else.

If you happen to recall the number of server firsts I achieved personally in TMO, I wouldn't put much stock in them either.
Just yesterday I got the server first haze panther skin, twice in a row.

[khanable]

Teasing detoxx is more fun than teasing chest. Detoxx and I have a very healthy elf sim relationship these days.

I've said it before: sod isn't the holy grail of threat weapons, but it's pretty dang close. Epic mh being better is crazy talk Jeremy - none of my parses show that to be true at all. And the broken aspects of this server are really poison and slow procs - way too high. The max damage and melee threat generation calculations seem to be little off too..

Also #makeepicprocclassic2016

And raev, you're a nerd

[Raev]

half nerd, half monk, all amazing

[quido]

I believe in a situation where the proc actually lands, the epic MH does better. I wasn't able to fully discern when this is in Velious, but there were a number of times I pulled aggro from SoD-wielding tanks while trying to build aggro after only a proc or two using epic MH. Quite a few, in fact - it was problematic.

[Detoxx]

Teasing detoxx is more fun than teasing chest. Detoxx and I have a very healthy elf sim relationship these days.

I've said it before: sod isn't the holy grail of threat weapons, but it's pretty dang close. Epic mh being better is crazy talk Jeremy - none of my parses show that to be true at all. And the broken aspects of this server are really poison and slow procs - way too high. The max damage and melee threat generation calculations seem to be little off too..

Also #makeepicprocclassic2016

And raev, you're a nerd

Epic main hand - 500 Raw hate, better stats, 100hate from damage
SoD - 288 hate, better ratio, weaker stats, Koi Spear comparable

Id love a SoD but at the end, it aint making or breaking shit.

That Shroud though, poor monks.

[khanable]

Sod is stun + 288dd - and ny parses rather consistently put it right around 700 per proc

In the age of mallets it means fuck all, so I'll agree (I guess you can say I concede heuhuehuehue) that it ain't making or breaking shit

[Colgate]

one time i went to the wiki server first list and spent like 2 minutes jokingly filling them in with empire kills since technically we did most of it first

within like 10 minutes some autist reverted my changes, was pretty surprised

[Detoxx]

It certainly aint helping me tank AoW without a disc since I dont have a SoD!

[Tankdan]

SoD - 288 hate


wat

[khanable]

wat

I, for one, blame the common core system

[Detoxx]

wat

Well 288 hate from just the damage, obv doesnt include the stun

[zanderklocke]

I think the guild tags should be removed from the Server First wiki page. It just looks dumb since none of the pre-Velious stuff has that.

[Kagey]

I deleted a bunch of the server first page stuff for the reason of it being nonsense.

Do you just stick around wiki and these forums to be a complete asshole? You dont even play any more. Stop

There should be server firsts for all sets of ss/kael/thurg, lodi kill, shawl quest, scout tools, vaniki, willsapper.
Velious is a much bigger deal then oldworld peggy cloak server firsts.

[Bruno]

SoD overrated and your tanks aren't even aware enough to realize it. Epic MH is better aggro. This server is broken.

I definitely don't agree it's overrated. It might be on project 1999. When I main tanked on both live and EQmac I tested the shit out of agro with SoD, Blade of Carnage, and epic. It wasn't even close. Dual SoDs beat out all other combinations for maintaining agro on every type of mob. As far as stats well that's a different story.

[Detoxx]

I definitely don't agree it's overrated. It might be on project 1999. When I main tanked on both live and EQmac I tested the shit out of agro with SoD, Blade of Carnage, and epic. It wasn't even close. Dual SoDs beat out all other combinations for maintaining agro on every type of mob. As far as stats well that's a different story.

No way a SoD touches a real BoC. BoC is a better proc with 700 raw hate which is unresistable.

[Bruno]

No way a SoD touches a real BoC. BoC is a better proc with 700 raw hate which is unresistable.

You're going by what you believe, I'm going by experience.

[quido]

That's what I'm saying though - I don't have that live bias. I'm speaking from my own experience - not even owning a SoD myself, but seeing how its aggro held up to mine with red blade. It held up abysmally a good number of times, to such a degree that I stopped pre-aggroing on the tank swap stuff.

I suspect it's bugged. Maybe it's just bad RNG.

[Thordoff]

No way a SoD touches a real BoC. BoC is a better proc with 700 raw hate which is unresistable.

Resists should be the same amount of aggro as if the spell landed. Therefore a raw hate proc offers no inherent advantage.

[quido]

It offers a quantitative advantage.

[Bruno]

I would be genuinely interested in hearing from other people's experience testing those three weapons. I look forward to testing it again on Phinny once Velious is released in a few weeks. As Thordoff said, the resist proc still generates agro, making it highly effective even on resistant mobs.

[quido]

Different server?

[Bruno]

Different server?

Phinigel the live progression server. I'm curious to see if the results are the same. I was highly disappointed to get the results I did, specifically with the BoC. BoC has superior stats, awesome graphic, and the proc looks cool.

[khanable]

That's what I'm saying though - I don't have that live bias. I'm speaking from my own experience - not even owning a SoD myself, but seeing how its aggro held up to mine with red blade. It held up abysmally a good number of times, to such a degree that I stopped pre-aggroing on the tank swap stuff.

I suspect it's bugged. Maybe it's just bad RNG.

I suspect bad RNG. You probably caught up to your tank in raw melee threat while they were torpor'd or something.

Resists should be the same amount of aggro as if the spell landed. Therefore a raw hate proc offers no inherent advantage.

Yeah this is what I recall it to be, idk if it's working this way on p99 for all procs though (as I haven't tested them all :3)

It offers a quantitative advantage.

Hah!

Well 288 hate from just the damage, obv doesnt include the stun

Detoxx just learned the sod has a stun component lol

I think the guild tags should be removed from the Server First wiki page. It just looks dumb since none of the pre-Velious stuff has that.

Who cares? Let nerds have their little slice of internet history. You're not the wiki gatekeeper..:(

[Juevento]

I suspect bad RNG. You probably caught up to your tank in raw melee threat while they were torpor'd or something.(

Oh look, another piece of evidence that torporing tanks is in fact a bad idea.

[Legday]

Briefs/Cucu/Kegluas - sell me an SoD on the cheap so I can hang it over Detoxx's head. You will not regret it.

Also - procs don't need to land to generate the exact same amount of threat as they would have if they did land. Dump a mallet in to a dragon and it will never land a single click, but it rips and keeps agro all the same.

[Lanuven]

Phinigel the live progression server. I'm curious to see if the results are the same. I was highly disappointed to get the results I did, specifically with the BoC. BoC has superior stats, awesome graphic, and the proc looks cool.

Our BoC will never have the proc. This is irrelevant. Also looks like a Lamentation = not awesome graphic.

[zanderklocke]

Do you just stick around wiki and these forums to be a complete asshole? You dont even play any more. Stop

There should be server firsts for all sets of ss/kael/thurg, lodi kill, shawl quest, scout tools, vaniki, willsapper.
Velious is a much bigger deal then oldworld peggy cloak server firsts.

I didn't delete that stuff.

I deleted stuff that said things like first guild to get suspended after class changes...

[Bruno]

Our BoC will never have the proc. This is irrelevant. Also looks like a Lamentation = not awesome graphic.

Thanks for the education. Might be better suited for the starting zone posts. It's really not irrelevant if you were following the entire conversation. It's merely a comparison of weapons, especially since p99 is as you pointed out limited on weapons to compare SoD to. I'm sure a lot of people here played on live so they're tracking. Plus, I think we can have a conversation about live here if we want, no?

[Daldaen]

Our BoC will never have the proc. This is irrelevant. Also looks like a Lamentation = not awesome graphic.

Perhaps...

I think a strong case can be made once we reach the Luclin launch date in our timeline the Devs may consider adding in Velious content that was changed in Luclin:

8th Shawl
Iksar epic quests (whistling fists, Necro skull, shaman cudgel, etc.)
Raid Gear Upgrades
Focus Effect Revamp
Essence Quests
Sleeper Resleeping (custom content quest)

Etc.

At this point, every mob in game can be killed with 80 players. Tunare and AoW included. Most every other target can be downed by 60. Increasing gear power isn't going to shift raid difficulty much at all, it would just make things a bit more interesting.

[khanable]

Addition of the boc proc would be hilarious

So many bards and rangers with big dick threat

[Freakish]

Briefs/Cucu/Kegluas - sell me an SoD on the cheap so I can hang it over Detoxx's head. You will not regret it.

Also - procs don't need to land to generate the exact same amount of threat as they would have if they did land. Dump a mallet in to a dragon and it will never land a single click, but it rips and keeps agro all the same.

I believe the argument is whether 5 mallet clicks resisted would generate the same amount as if they landed. Let's say it's 500 aggro (made up number here) for each resisted mallet click. Would it be more if the spell landed? 550, 600?
I don't think it would. Taking logic from the wizard spell line, a resisted sunstrike is as much aggro as one that lands for full. The difference would be when it lands if there is a dot component or some kind of ticking debuffs.

[Raev]

I definitely don't agree it's overrated. It might be on project 1999. When I main tanked on both live and EQmac I tested the shit out of agro with SoD, Blade of Carnage, and epic. It wasn't even close. Dual SoDs beat out all other combinations for maintaining agro on every type of mob. As far as stats well that's a different story.

The Blade of Carnage (700 hate proc, 1.3 hate ratio) should be slightly superior to the SOD (688 hate proc, 1.28 hate ratio) in the mainhand.

I don't think any sort of direct experiment, i.e. 'hey I used BOC today and SODs yesterday' will be sufficiently accurate. You just have to measure the hate per swing, measure the hate per proc, and do the math.

Jeremy's inability to do this is why I take his claims that he is good at math with a large boulder of salt.

I deleted stuff that said things like first guild to get suspended after class changes...

You deleted BDA's only server first?

[Daldaen]

I believe the argument is whether 5 mallet clicks resisted would generate the same amount as if they landed. Let's say it's 500 aggro (made up number here) for each resisted mallet click. Would it be more if the spell landed? 550, 600?
I don't think it would. Taking logic from the wizard spell line, a resisted sunstrike is as much aggro as one that lands for full. The difference would be when it lands if there is a dot component or some kind of ticking debuffs.

Aggro is entirely front loaded. It is calculated before the the success of the action is calculated.

This extends for both melee and spells. This is the reason misses generate aggro and resists do as well.

The perfect example of this is the Jolt and Concussion lines of spells. Even though their only spell data line is "reduce hate by XXX", it's totally irrelevant whether they land or not. They will reduce that amount of hate every cast without fail. This is classic.

[zanderklocke]

You deleted BDA's only server first?

I guess I did because I'm an asshole according to Kagey?

[Freakish]

Right, that was my assumption. DoTs definitely give aggro as they tick though.

[Legday]

Interesting notes on spells landing and such.

More importantly:

Briefs/Cucu/Kegluas - sell me an SoD on the cheap so I can hang it over Detoxx's head. You will not regret it.

[khanable]

2k and a stack of muffins, legday

[Samoht]

Well 288 hate from just the damage, obv doesnt include the stun

What do you mean "obv doesnt include the stun"

Why wouldn't you include the stun? An extra 400 hate seems relevant to the conversation.

[Daldaen]

Right, that was my assumption. DoTs definitely give aggro as they tick though.

Indeed, they do here.

I know at some point DoTs were front loaded as well. Which lead to Necros FDing every 2nd or 3rd DoT in their DPS rotation to clear aggro. This was way later on in EQ so I'm not sure if it was a later change or something that had been there all along. It would basically be impossible to prove though so meh. I think our aggro code here is pretty solid. Though if they ever did add lazy aggro code holy lord Jesus would the raid scene change.

[Freakish]

Legday probably has better weapons than SoD anyway. 100% serious.

[Samoht]

Also:

Warriors without Sceptres: Detoxx<br>

ROFL. Zander, you're now officially an asshole for constantly training noobs and zone monopolization and also removing this.

[Daldaen]

Let's be honest. The real best warrior weapon is a set of Puppet Strings.

[khanable]

Also:



ROFL. Zander, you're now officially an asshole for constantly training noobs and zone monopolization and also removing this.

Seems like the information he tried to put in wasn't even correct anyway

If you're going to undo someone else's stuff at least make sure the information is correct, Zanderr :/

[Detoxx]

Trident of the Deep Sea / Blade of Strategy best combo forever. Thanks Trampage!

[Raev]

think our aggro code here is pretty solid.

The problem right now is that debuffs and poisons give about 2x as much hate as they should. Not only does this skew the weapon selection (Willsapper actually generates more hate/s total than the SOD I believe) but correcting this would actually be a huge buff to warriors as Shamans/Enchanters could fire much earlier. It would also make mallets less important.

One of the things that continually boggles my mind is how this server has special bytecode to remove the compass but has hugely non-classic implementations for AC (softcap v hardcap) and threat, two of the most important mechanics for just about everything.

[Daldaen]

Evidence for your assertion is where?

Early slows and Tashans killed many enchanters and shamans on raids. Because of how aggro heavy those spells are. Suggesting their aggro potential should be half is a very strong claim.

[Lune]

Mallets should have been patched out years ago. Yea, maybe the mechanic is classic, but it wasn't as widely abused on live as it is here. That's all P99 needed was for content to be even more trivial than it already is. Just like with Ivandyr's Hoops in early VP

[khanable]

Evidence for your assertion is where?

Early slows and Tashans killed many enchanters and shamans on raids. Because of how aggro heavy those spells are. Suggesting their aggro potential should be half is a very strong claim.

They died because debuff aggro was a function of the mobs hp. This was ok in kunark and totally fucked in velious for obvious reasons. They added a cap to debuff threat because of this.

This also allowed furor to tank indefinitely with double tash sticks.

Also probably the reason why the warrior epic proc was changed.

There are patch notes about it - and a lengthy thread in the bugs forum somewhere, but no one can really dig up exact numbers so yeah

[Raev]

C'mon Daldaen, I'm not some red scrub who posts things because I remember classic mechanics just like I remember my zip code when I was playing.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120110 has the relevant link although sadly it seems the Steel Warrior finally gave up the ghost.

[wildstar]

Oh.. so it's not about detoxing with cucumbers

[quido]

Do stuns on mobs that are immune to stuns generate hate?

[zanderklocke]

Also:

ROFL. Zander, you're now officially an asshole for constantly training noobs and zone monopolization and also removing this.

I never tried to monopolize a zone so others couldn't play, but I'm sure I bugged people probably a few times.

I've never intentionally trained anyone. Let's be real though, every player has accidentally trained someone before on this server.

[zanderklocke]

Seems like the information he tried to put in wasn't even correct anyway

If you're going to undo someone else's stuff at least make sure the information is correct, Zanderr :/

Alright, I just edited it and basically made it like it originally was with most objective information. I'm done.

However, I probably will delete trolling on the Wiki in the future if I see it. I think being objective, a rational person world agree Detoxx does not need to be on that page, and BDA suspension does not need to be on the server first page.

[Erati]

BDA server first GL suspended in Velious was a landmark achievement tho

Chest set the bar so high and fast, bards will sing of his feat forever

[khanable]

BDA server first GL suspended in Velious was a landmark achievement tho

Chest set the bar so high and fast, bards will sing of his feat forever

Yes

This

Zanderr hates fun

:(

[khanable]

Do stuns on mobs that are immune to stuns generate hate?

I want to say yes (anecdotal/experience)

But I'm not 100% on that (no real tests)

What's a lower-ish level stun immune mob that this can be tested on?

[arsenalpow]

BDA server first GL suspended in Velious was a landmark achievement tho

Chest set the bar so high and fast, bards will sing of his feat forever
[Sun Aug 02 19:32:29 2015] King Tormax engages Kiixx!
[Sun Aug 02 19:39:22 2015] King Tormax engages Beruthiel!
[Sun Aug 02 19:39:39 2015] King Tormax engages Whitewing!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:39:43 2015] King Tormax engages Sage!
[Sun Aug 02 19:39:44 2015] King Tormax engages Canna!
[Sun Aug 02 19:39:47 2015] King Tormax engages Drakakade!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:40:42 2015] King Tormax engages Snozeberry!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:42:18 2015] King Tormax engages Spudsly!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:42:27 2015] King Tormax engages Ninik!
[Sun Aug 02 19:42:33 2015] King Tormax engages Taminy!
[Sun Aug 02 19:42:42 2015] King Tormax engages Whitewing!
[Sun Aug 02 19:42:43 2015] King Tormax engages Necrious!
[Sun Aug 02 19:42:46 2015] King Tormax engages Nissmo!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:42:52 2015] King Tormax engages Laphi!
[Sun Aug 02 19:42:53 2015] King Tormax engages Leshroc!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:43:45 2015] King Tormax engages Chest!
[Sun Aug 02 19:43:54 2015] King Tormax engages Syzzurp!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:44:19 2015] King Tormax engages Chest!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:44:30 2015] King Tormax engages Carnifaux!
[Sun Aug 02 19:44:32 2015] King Tormax engages Heil!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:44:38 2015] King Tormax engages Aerendel!
[Sun Aug 02 19:44:40 2015] King Tormax engages Fingon!
[Sun Aug 02 19:44:41 2015] King Tormax engages Slowdown!
[Sun Aug 02 19:44:43 2015] King Tormax engages Ongen!
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[Sun Aug 02 19:44:47 2015] King Tormax engages Downstairs!
[Sun Aug 02 19:44:50 2015] King Tormax engages Snozeberry!

Well deserved suspension or something.

[Legday]

I want to say yes (anecdotal/experience)

But I'm not 100% on that (no real tests)

What's a lower-ish level stun immune mob that this can be tested on?

FG's.

[Freakish]

FG's.

Any velious giant.

[Raev]

BDA server first GL suspended in Velious was a landmark achievement tho

Chest set the bar so high and fast, bards will sing of his feat forever

[FatMice]

Please note that the following list is not comprehensive; it is a snapshot of well-known milestones recalled from classic-live gameplay in regards to achievements which were hailed as "Game-Changers." When editing this list, please remain respectful to the p99 population as a whole. This is public record and should be upheld to the highest standards, regardless of competition and/or personal opinion.

Lol. It's like people take this serious or something.

[Freakish]

THE WIKI WAR CONTINUES.