Basic Income

[JurisDictum]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/universal-basic-income/

The idea is to replace all welfare with check every single person gets in the mail every month. No strings attached. The ideal in America would be somewhere around 25,000 a year. However, there would be no food stamps, unemployment, and disability.

The first thing most people say against this is that people will stop working...if this is what you were thinking than congratulations on being successfully brain washed by living in hard right capitalist country your whole life. We have known for years that people don't just stop working the second they don't have to (sociology, political science, psychology all have studies demonstrating this). If you get a free $25,000 a year, why not make another 25-30K? Why not pursue your real interests like art or music?

Unfortunately I'm talking to gamers, the one group I'm concerned might actually just sit on their ass collecting the 25k. But at least more money will go to the gaming industry and create better games.

This idea was way more popular than I thought. Even among right-leaning people. The main reason seems to be the big tech companies support it and are even funding experiments. I'm guessing they know something we don't about potential profit margins if everyone was given basic income.

[AzzarTheGod]

Its inevitable, but will take a political revolution to pass.

I think we will see it in our lifetime, perhaps 30-40 more years.

[Thulack]

Lol i work like 20 hours a week and would gladly give that up if given the chance :) 25k is more then i make already so would be a nice little pay raise :P

[Blitzers]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/universal-basic-income/

The idea is to replace all welfare with check every single person gets in the mail every month. No strings attached. The ideal in America would be somewhere around 25,000 a year. However, there would be no food stamps, unemployment, and disability.

The first thing most people say against this is that people will stop working...if this is what you were thinking than congratulations on being successfully brain washed by living in hard right capitalist country your whole life. We have known for years that people don't just stop working the second they don't have to (sociology, political science, psychology all have studies demonstrating this). If you get a free $25,000 a year, why not make another 25-30K? Why not pursue your real interests like art or music?

Unfortunately I'm talking to gamers, the one group I'm concerned might actually just sit on their ass collecting the 25k. But at least more money will go to the gaming industry and create better games.

This idea was way more popular than I thought. Even among right-leaning people. The main reason seems to be the big tech companies support it and are even funding experiments. I'm guessing they know something we don't about potential profit margins if everyone was given basic income.

I would never support abortion, but in your case I'd make an exception.

[Blitzers]

Do any of you realize the effect of unearned income vs earned income and currency valuation? Really this isn't advanced economics here. Seriously stick to video games and stop trying to "fix" your own laziness with ignorant ideas like this.

[Knuckle]

On my income(65-70k) I would absolutely quit my job and find a part time job, the reduction in work hours would be used to focus more on my health: plenty of sleep, exercise, music practice, and more hobby time. Sounds brilliant.

[JurisDictum]

Do any of you realize the effect of unearned income vs earned income and currency valuation? Really this isn't advanced economics here. Seriously stick to video games and stop trying to "fix" your own laziness with ignorant ideas like this.

Until you actually show you understand a god damn thing about the economy or why this is a bad idea, I'm going to to go ahead and assume you're a lazy troll that probably should stick to gaming.

I don't respond to one-liners as a general principal. This is a borderline case because you took 2 posts and 3 sentences to say one thing:

"ur dumb and lazy and don know what ur talkin abut!"

[Rararboker]

Definitely dumb and lazy. You don't know what your talking about.

[Cecily]

Well clearly it's coming from your tax dollars. Will spend my 25k on birth control pills and elective surgery. God bless america and thank you, Blitzers.

[Daywolf]

It's not coming from my taxes, it's coming from the taxes of the next generation and beyond... while they are left with nothing. Amounts to the same thing just different method. Greece, Venezuela, Cuba, just one big happy family we'll be. You don't fix a problem by digging yourself deeper into the same problem.

[AzzarTheGod]

Do any of you realize the effect of unearned income vs earned income and currency valuation? Really this isn't advanced economics here. Seriously stick to video games and stop trying to "fix" your own laziness with ignorant ideas like this.

I'm a Historian that tracks political precedent (both ancient and post-modern) politics and trends.

I believe we will see something like this implemented at the end of the millennial generation. Many of us will live to see this before we die, but we will not "benefit" from it.

Its inevitable.

[Swish]

It's not coming from my taxes, it's coming from the taxes of the next generation and beyond... while they are left with nothing. Amounts to the same thing just different method. Greece, Venezuela, Cuba, just one big happy family we'll be. You don't fix a problem by digging yourself deeper into the same problem.

The debt ceiling will continue to be raised, sorry to say. Makes news headlines for a few days then everyone forgets about it.

[R Flair]

Inflation would render that 25k of little value. Even if it didnt, its pretty ignorant to think most people would keep working if they had what was necessary to cover their basic needs and then some.

[AzzarTheGod]

Inflation would render that 25k of little value. Even if it didnt, its pretty ignorant to think most people would keep working if they had what was necessary to cover their basic needs and then some.

Fixed price on necessary goods (food, rent, etc) will take care of any inflation concerns and stem market greed.

[Daywolf]

Fixed price on necessary goods (food, rent, etc) will take care of any inflation concerns and stem market greed.
So the solution would be even bigger controlling government and it's heavy reliance on corporatism? Dude, look at 0bama, the guy that claimed he was no shill of special interest lobbyists when he was trying to get elected. Then becoming the president with the most amount of banking lobbyists in his administration.

This has nothing at all to do with "market greed", but big government and their indulgence of corporatism (understand I'm not speaking of all corporations, but actual corporatism by mega corps in with the government). It's going to magically go away? eh no. It's not the little guy that buys a house and rents it out as being the problem. And once the next thing fails, and it will, it'll become a double down yet again, oh and you better believe while corporatism thrives even more.

[AzzarTheGod]

So the solution would be even bigger controlling government and it's heavy reliance on corporatism? Dude, look at 0bama, the guy that claimed he was no shill of special interest lobbyists when he was trying to get elected. Then becoming the president with the most amount of banking lobbyists in his administration.

This has nothing at all to do with "market greed", but big government and their indulgence of corporatism (understand I'm not speaking of all corporations, but actual corporatism by mega corps in with the government). It's going to magically go away? eh no. It's not the little guy that buys a house and rents it out. And once the next thing fails, and it will, it'll become a double down yet again, oh and you better believe while corporatism thrives even more.

You make a good point. Corporatism is the bigger issue right now.

[Daywolf]

You make a good point. Corporatism is the bigger issue right now.
Yep, I do believe it really is. I mean before anything at all can work, that is the central issue that needs to be dealt with.

And dealing with it doesn't mean like what happened in Britain when the occupy movement arrived there. I remember watching the riots (via videos) as they burnt down their neighborhoods. These two girls in their early 20's standing outside a small family owned furniture shop being burnt down as the girls screamed "down with the 1% !!!" *face palm*

It seems like whenever we step out to do something good, some how ideology over-rides our initial observations of the central problem we set out to eliminate. We just default to what we think how things should be after that elimination, yet while not yet eliminated. Then it all just breaks down and we are still where we started.

[jcr4990]

Automation is coming and its coming FAST. Unemployment is going to skyrocket. Basic income may or may not be a solution but SOMETHING is gonna have to give. Just think about how many jobs are going to disappear from self driving cars (and more importantly big trucks) alone? The fast food industry is well on its way to full automation too. At some point the very core of our society is going to have to radically change. Somehow I'm guessing things will have to get drastically worse and blood will have to be shed before things change significantly though. Human nature and all that.

[JurisDictum]

The reason right-leaning people support this more often then you would think at a glance, is because they view it as a way of getting rid of bureaucracy and simplifying government into straight redistribution.
And it is simply a fact that there is going to be a problem eventually when humans are no longer needed for labor jobs (and even a lot of technical jobs).

[Daywolf]

Automation is coming and its coming FAST. Unemployment is going to skyrocket. Basic income may or may not be a solution but SOMETHING is gonna have to give. Just think about how many jobs are going to disappear from self driving cars (and more importantly big trucks) alone? The fast food industry is well on its way to full automation too. At some point the very core of our society is going to have to radically change. Somehow I'm guessing things will have to get drastically worse and blood will have to be shed before things change significantly though. Human nature and all that.
Aaaaaaaand.... the robot cars are going to force you to go into the robot fast food joint?

This may sound odd to some, but I have been doing this thang for a lot of years now. If I don't like how a company operates, I go someplace else O.o

I know... I know... :o silly. I almost sound like... I don't know... an anti-corporatist? or anti-establishment? idk...
I still do business with some (e.g. M$ though I hate them), but largely I exercise choice when purchasing goods and services and from whom. I even try to make an effort to buy things other than Monsanto GMO concoctions... my attempts to support the organic farmers which are being crippled by this corporatism. Though in that case, good luck here in the US totally avoiding Monsanto :mad:


The reason right-leaning people support this more often then you would think at a glance, is because they view it as a way of getting rid of bureaucracy and simplifying government into straight redistribution.
And it is simply a fact that there is going to be a problem eventually when humans are no longer needed for labor jobs (and even a lot of technical jobs). ^ see and this is my example to my previous post as to why it could never be fixed (or the problem conquered), to why the attempt fails every time. They have us brain-fart propagandized to ignore them while they turn us on each other. And this is tue intentional propaganda they wash us thru and thru by using the mass media. They mold our opinions, and set us loose to fight eachother while they keep going on with what they are doing and we can do nothing to stop it.

[maskedmelon]

This is fine if we institute parent licensing. Mandatory sterilization at birth and then competency tests to procreate.

[R Flair]

But then you wouldn't have been here to make that stupid post.

[Cecily]

This forum would be pretty much gone w/o autism spectrum.

[AzzarTheGod]

This forum would be pretty much gone w/o autism spectrum.

Didn't they declassify Asperger's as a disorder/mental illness?

99% of posters (trolls, debaters, and arguers) fall under Asperger's.

So you are wrong I think since they recently removed Asperger's from the situation, trying to sell it as some kind of genetic difference (lol. imo its just another form of brain damage without proof that can demonstrate that this condition existed in the pre-industrial age)

Most neurodevelopmental disorders are brain damage as a result of industrialization. If you get full blown autism you either got a bad quality control vaccination with the wrong virus dna in it, or you have really bad genetics and/or your mother was too burdened from volatile organic chemicals (result of industrialization) and heavy metals.

Sidebar: Asperger's individuals are incredibly difficult to deal with when they make conscious antisocial choices. Give me 5 Tiggles trolling the piss out of me over this 1 person I have to deal with on a near regular basis at this point in my life.

[Cecily]

Late at night I forget I've been telling myself to stop playing armchair psychologist or otherwise joking about Asperger's. It's mean on a level I'd rather not go to. That's interesting but I'm gonna not talk about it and go to bed instead I think...

[Farzo]

Lol 25k a year.

[AzzarTheGod]

Late at night I forget I've been telling myself to stop playing armchair psychologist or otherwise joking about Asperger's. It's mean on a level I'd rather not go to. That's interesting but I'm gonna not talk about it and go to bed instead I think...

Good call. Little bit of tangential thinking and late night ranting on my part, with no plans to support anything I said the next day. <3

Cutting the fat out of that post, all I wanted to say was Asperger's is no longer classified as an autism spectrum disorder. According to some panel of big wigs.

[Millburn]

Automation is coming and its coming FAST. Unemployment is going to skyrocket. Basic income may or may not be a solution but SOMETHING is gonna have to give. Just think about how many jobs are going to disappear from self driving cars (and more importantly big trucks) alone? The fast food industry is well on its way to full automation too. At some point the very core of our society is going to have to radically change. Somehow I'm guessing things will have to get drastically worse and blood will have to be shed before things change significantly though. Human nature and all that.

18 wheeler's aren't getting automated anytime soon. I mean, I know it's coming but I wouldn't be worried as a driver. Shit goes wrong out on the road all the time and at least with what I haul (reefer) if something breaks down you need someone out there immediately or it begins to melt. Automation will happen but at least in the case of a lot of freight (probably not all) you will still have a rider who stays with the truck to maintain it.

[Blitzers]

Fixed price on necessary goods (food, rent, etc) will take care of any inflation concerns and stem market greed.

Price fixing, what are u thinking. You're being bad stop.

[JurisDictum]

There this kind of "mild" Asperger's that isn't even considered a disorder in most of Europe. It just a personality type that has narrow interests they know everything about and is not so smooth socially. Mostly they talk too much about their interest not enough about other peoples' during conversation.

There's has to be a ton of that on p99

Then there are the guys that scream if a girl touches their shoulder or clearly don't pick up on basic social ques...a lot more rare and obviously a real hindrance.

I really don't see what Tiggles has to do with either of these. He struck me as a typical fat guy, no accomplishments, low self-esteem, compensates by lording over people in MMOs. I've met literally hundreds. I was one until I got a job education and lost some weight.

I don't know the guy though. I was just playing around when TMO ran shit originally and read some of his posts.

[Trollhide]

Most neurodevelopmental disorders are brain damage as a result of industrialization. If you get full blown autism you either got a bad quality control vaccination with the wrong virus dna in it, or you have really bad genetics and/or your mother was too burdened from volatile organic chemicals (result of industrialization) and heavy metals.

But what are your thoughts on chemtrails? GMOs? (I have a suspicion I already know ;))

https://thelogicofscience.com/2016/04/28/vaccines-and-autism-a-thorough-review-of-the-evidence/

[AzzarTheGod]

But what are your thoughts on chemtrails? GMOs? (I have a suspicion I already know ;))

https://thelogicofscience.com/2016/04/28/vaccines-and-autism-a-thorough-review-of-the-evidence/

chemtrails don't care.

GMOs are bad considering we don't understand the organism itself yet. Unsafe experiment.

Vaccines also ongoing experiment. Nice try on the link. Already scientifically proven to cause unsafe levels of brain inflammation and damage when given to babies and small children in many cases.

[iruinedyourday]

Mankind is the sea that the true image of god will emerge, what we would inappropriately name: AI

Lets hope they treat the ocean they evolve from better than we do ours, or we're fucked.

[Daywolf]

chemtrails don't care.You should.
GMOs are bad considering we don't understand the organism itself yet. Unsafe experiment.Agreed in general. There is terrible damage being done though, especially to crops, possibly irreversible. The modification of animals and bugs is a new thing compared to crop manipulation, so a large impact is yet to come in this case. But considering what has been done with crops, it's a given.
Vaccines also ongoing experiment. Nice try on the link. Already scientifically proven to cause unsafe levels of brain inflammation and damage when given to babies and small children in many cases.True. I go further though as you know. But in itself a true statement that we agree on :)

[Jimjam]

And dealing with it doesn't mean like what happened in Britain when the occupy movement arrived there. I remember watching the riots (via videos) as they burnt down their neighborhoods. These two girls in their early 20's standing outside a small family owned furniture shop being burnt down as the girls screamed "down with the 1% !!!" *face palm*.

Did the England Riots really get reported as the Occupy Movement coming to Britain?

That's not really representative of what happened.

The riots actually began in London as a protest against the police shooting of a local man. The violence turned to looting and got so out of hand that the police couldn't do much about it. Slowly, as news got out, copycat riots began to spring up everywhere with every piece of trash deciding they wanted in on the chaos/action.

There were "down with the 1%" demonstrations in the UK, but these were peaceful sit ins, by enlarge. Just because a minority were parroting slogans from the Occupy Movement during the riots, doesn't mean the riots were Occupy Movement riots.

It was a bunch of bored youths that resented authority deciding to have a mischief night and vent their frustration.

[JurisDictum]

See in America. We don't hit the cops. This is because if we do they shoot us until we don't move. That's what they are trained to do. Sometimes if they don't feel threatened, they will just throw you down and put their foot on your neck or something. If for a second they think you might start actually challenging them however, your dead.

It always baffles me to see Europeans sparing with the cops. Not that ours is the better system necessarily.

[AzzarTheGod]

See in America. We don't hit the cops. This is because if we do they shoot us until we don't move. That's what they are trained to do. Sometimes if they don't feel threatened, they will just throw you down and put their foot on your neck or something. If for a second they think you might start actually challenging them however, your dead.

It always baffles me to see Europeans sparing with the cops. Not that ours is the better system necessarily.

Yeah lol, watching videos of London police getting punched on youtube lately. They fight hand-to-hand.

Not sure which system is better for keeping order...I understand the benefits of both systems.

I don't think Europeans know that you cannot punch or attempt to punch a US police officer, Its actually a death sentence.

[Swish]

Yeah lol, watching videos of London police getting punched on youtube lately. They fight hand-to-hand.

Not sure which system is better for keeping order...I understand the benefits of both systems.

I don't think Europeans know that you cannot punch or attempt to punch a US police officer, Its actually a death sentence.

The American hoodlum is certainly "shoot on sight" worthy moreso than his European counterpart...mostly. You guys are next level cray cray.

[Daywolf]

Did the England Riots really get reported as the Occupy Movement coming to Britain? Not the totality of it, no. The wave moved over there (and it should), and yeah there were peaceful protests, but also idiots running around the streets as stuff burnt while shouting 'down with the 1%'. Not all of them doing that, for sure, but it was still present. Just as much as we had idiot rioters here, which imo is more the reason it all got killed off, but not the only reason.

As for being "reported", as with everything, things are changed to fit the desires of the media. I followed independent news back then, as I still do today. You know where certain "protests" are actually called "riots" like they are. Of course some independents spin their own misinformation, like RT reporting that no protesters/rioters physically attacked cops in Oakland, yet admitted bottles and rocks were thrown and cops were reported as injured. Duh? Must re redefine what a physical attack is to support an agenda?

As far as I see, it's only gotten worse over all. So we take it to the voting booth. And among those with some awareness, division remains. I don't hate Bernie, but I don't agree with his endgame, his supporters can (https://youtu.be/e3mxVjB4aqI) tick me off, but at least he has some idea of the underline threat and has managed some resistance to it. Doesn't matter if I say I'd vote for him or not, the dems are so corrupt he never had a chance, which is much the way the reps are headed; dems are typically just a step or two ahead.

Clinton is the very thing that should be hated, as much as her boss, 0bama, a hero of the central banks. Then they all hate the Donald, confusingly so. I don't agree with everything from him, but like Bernie he has his aim on resisting the bankers and the big corps and their TPP/TTIP etc. I'm sick of "change", and Bernie offers more of it, which imo dilutes the current problems with whacked out entities driving us down. There is only so much one can do in four or eight years, and all this stuff runs so deep, it could take decades to really turn it all around. Some of this shit has been progressing over 100 years. No instant fix as people like to dream. Enough with dreamers, last chance to start with results, even if little victories.

The American hoodlum is certainly "shoot on sight" worthy moreso than his European counterpart...mostly. You guys are next level cray cray.
nah


tl;dr: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

[derpcake]

I really don't see what Tiggles has to do with either of these. He struck me as a typical fat guy, no accomplishments, low self-esteem, compensates by lording over people in MMOs. I've met literally hundreds. I was one until I got a job education and lost some weight.

I don't know the guy though. I was just playing around when TMO ran shit originally and read some of his posts.

yea, guy that tried to hit on the heroine hooker from a rerolled.org poster is def normal

regular fat guy for sure

[derpcake]

Yeah lol, watching videos of London police getting punched on youtube lately. They fight hand-to-hand.

Not sure which system is better for keeping order...I understand the benefits of both systems.

I don't think Europeans know that you cannot punch or attempt to punch a US police officer, Its actually a death sentence.

one of the issues here is that when either party starts using harsher violence, so does the other

in the US guns are common and people aren't shy to use them, so cops shoot on sight

in EU guns are rare and a lot of criminal groups prefer a good bashing or perhaps a stabbing

problem is recently we see "new" europeans from other regions of the world that come here swinging AK47s and explosives

our law enforcement isn't experienced or prepared to deal with that kind of stuff, yet

for example when Belgian special forces assaulted some terrorists in Verviers, they had to borrow equipment from the French

[Daywolf]

one of the issues here is that when either party starts using harsher violence, so does the other

in the US guns are common and people aren't shy to use them, so cops shoot on sight

in EU guns are rare and a lot of criminal groups prefer a good bashing or perhaps a stabbing

problem is recently we see "new" europeans from other regions of the world that come here swinging AK47s and explosives

our law enforcement isn't experienced or prepared to deal with that kind of stuff, yet

for example when Belgian special forces assaulted some terrorists in Verviers, they had to borrow equipment from the French
Well what they are sayin, martial law is coming to Europe this year. Say that in previous years and I'd say BS. But I don't see this as far fetched any longer (I really hope not this year). They are saying riots here this summer, I doubt they will be able to do the martial law here over that, but if worse things happen I would not be surprised.

[JurisDictum]

They have us brain-fart propagandized to ignore them while they turn us on each other. And this is tue intentional propaganda they wash us thru and thru by using the mass media. They mold our opinions, and set us loose to fight eachother while they keep going on with what they are doing and we can do nothing to stop it.

I see what your saying to an extent daywolf. Political parties exist to herd thoughts and ideas. In the US however, there is a debate whether these parties really exist like they do in parliamentary systems. Often wealthy people work with politicians from both parties and politicians have to worth with the other party to do anything as well.

What political party you are as a politician in America mostly has to do with "high visability" issues that fall on party lines. So a democrat is much more likely to vote to repeal the Bush tax cuts for example. This is because once the media actually does its job and tells us something important going on, you can't get away with just doing whatever the hell you want like on "low visability" issues (where the media doesn't report). A democrat against letting the Bush Tax cuts expire has to answer to a lot of democrat voters. Otherwise, he just has to answer to the party leadership. The party leadership will often give a lot of leeway. So you can support new spending as a republican or program cuts as a democrat.

Basically what this system lets politicans do, is do things like raise the debt for a stupid program that no one scrutinizes, so that some other guy can get his stupid program that no one scrutinizes. Because the media isn't going to talk about it.

Only when the media talks about things do we see the real divides that exist. And those real divides are often exploited by special interest. They get you to vote for a package with stuff in you don't like, and neither do the vast majority of Americans. Maybe you don't like big tax cuts for the "job creators," but you sure are fucking sick of abortion and gays getting married...just an example off the top of my head...

But make no mistake. These divides do exit. There are really people that just hate the idea that someone might get foodstamps if they don't absolutely need them to live. Likewise, there are people that believe wealth entrenchment is morally repugnant.