What if you combined the Wizard and Mage?

[Vexenu]

Note: This is not a proposal for P1999, just a though experiment.

What would happen if you hypothetically combined the Wizard and Magician classes? Normally you'd assume that combining two entire classes into one would make them massively overpowered, but I think that the resulting class (I will call it the "Wizard Mage" for simplicity's sake) would not be overpowered when compared to the other WIS and INT casters. In fact, it would still be on the weaker end of the spectrum. Consider that the Wizard and Magician classes are both incredibly one-dimensional in their classic state. In the main, the Wizard nukes and ports, while the Mage has a pet and DS. Then you have the lesser abilities, with the Wizard offering some CC through roots, snare and stuns, while the Mage can summon items and CoTH. So if you combined the two, you'd basically have a Mage that could nuke harder, root/snare and port.

Suddenly instead of having two niche classes with glaring weaknesses (Wiz with pathetic sustained DPS, Mage with no CC) you'd have a single strong class. And even with all the abilities of both classes, the Wizard Mage would still be significantly less powerful than the Enchanter, and roughly on par with the Necromancer. In fact, in terms of solo potential, a Wizard Mage wouldn't be much different from a normal Magician using Root nets. Meanwhile the Enchanter can utilize massively overpowered charm and slow, and the Necro still has a huge toolbox of tricks. And Shamans with slow + Torpor are obviously much more powerful. The Wizard Mage, despite having two classes worth of spells in one, is still weaker in comparison from a solo perspective.

The only issue of imbalance I see is that on raid mobs, a 60/Epic Mage pet + bane/lure nukes would make the Wizard Mage #1 DPS by a considerable margin on most fights. To combat this you could simply increase the cast time or reuse time on those nukes by a degree that would place the Wizard Mage at roughly Monk-level DPS.

Thoughts on the hypothetical Wizard Mage? Relatively balanced with the other classes or overpowered?

[maskedmelon]

Would Magizards receive some kind of fireblast ability?

[Doctor Jeff]

They are already balanced this way. The epic pet easily does Monk DPS without any nukes.

You would have to make the pets on par with a Necromancer's. Then, what's the point of having one at all?

[Lojik]

netflix for days

[Cecily]

You cannot combine these items in this container type!

[bktroost]

It has been tried. The experiment went horribly wrong and resulted in a rogue.

[NegaStoat]

I already pondered this and it has some issues. The first thing to keep in mind is that when you go to mash the two classes together, you'd need to look at the two rival classes of Druid and Necromancer that are also have a primary of teleports and pets, respectively. In an effort to not stomp on the Druid's toes, the wiz-mage couldn't have a nuke stronger than theirs. Period. In relation to the Necromancer, the wiz-mage's pets would now have to be reduced in base damage scales and health totals to measure against an equal level skelly pet. This means the fire pet's health would be really low in comparison. The wiz-mage would still have access to the Sol Ro temple focus item quests because Shaman and other classes would scream if they were taken out.

Initially the wiz-mage would have no access to snare or root of any sort (excluding earth pet). The variety of nukes would now include fire, frost, magic (still conjured), and a somewhat better variety of AoE's (standard ranged + Rains which suck). The end result would be a magician with weaker pets but a better variety of spell damage types and forms, with teleports, but no crowd control or lures & wizard crowning nukes. The Malisement line would remain in their possession, as would all conjure spells.

I'd say, start the testing from there and after a few weeks of feedback and results make a decision to see if more would need to be added. It's better to start low and gradually ramp it up, only if there's a need, rather than go big and try to nerf things down.

Edit - The phantom leather line of spells could restore mana in addition to health IF a pet is not currently summoned. Also, several nukes might gain the Lure effect IF a pet is not summoned as well. The idea of the class having something to contribute when a pet is not feasible could be considered with the absence of a pet going on, much like a Necromancer can achieve with their limited CC, Twitches and Health pacts. Also, if not having access to even the standard single target root that every other pure caster and priest is able to have remains a big issue, give it to them but change the Earth pet's proc to something else possibly.

[Ravager]

They still wouldn't be able to get a group.

[Zaejii]

You cannot combine these items in this container type!

^

[Lojik]

IMO Wizard would be great if just dragonbane worked on all dragons and giantbane on all giants

Edit: In Velious

[fadetree]

I think we should combine Rangers and Cleric.



For obvious reasons.....

[Vexenu]

I already pondered this and it has some issues. The first thing to keep in mind is that when you go to mash the two classes together, you'd need to look at the two rival classes of Druid and Necromancer that are also have a primary of teleports and pets, respectively. In an effort to not stomp on the Druid's toes, the wiz-mage couldn't have a nuke stronger than theirs. Period. In relation to the Necromancer, the wiz-mage's pets would now have to be reduced in base damage scales and health totals to measure against an equal level skelly pet. This means the fire pet's health would be really low in comparison.

I thought about this as well. It isn't quite apples to apples though, simply comparing port vs. port and pet vs. pet. That's ignoring the other significant abilities of the Druid and the Necro. The Druid also has the ability to charm animals, heal, buff and DoT. And the Necro can charm undead, FD, lifetap, ghetto mez and heal, DoT, fear, etc... So the Druid is much more than just ports and nukes, and the Necro is more than the pet. Conversely, the Wiz is basically all and ports and nukes, and the Mage is entirely the pet. If you moderately buffed the Druid's healing/buffing capabilities (as we saw was done in post-classic expansions) and gave the Necro some minor buffs (maybe an undead slow and a slightly beefier pet) I think there would be more than enough to differentiate the classes and make them appealing in ways the Wizard Mage is not. Even possessing two classes worth of spells, the Wiz Mage would have a fairly narrow spell range, being basically a pure DPS class that can port and perform minor CC. The utility offered by the Druid and Necro, in contrast, is much greater.

[Guttzs]

I'm intrigued thoroughly with this idea and I'd like to see what the best class in the game get mixed together similar to this mage wizard combo class. Imagine the power of a warrior with the strength of another warrior. Would he have 4 arms? Would dual wielding 2 handed weapons be possible with this WarWarrior? The list is so pointed with mixing any other classes but with a warrior/warrior mix would be nearly impossible to theory craft every explanation. Would the WarWarrior get to sextuplet attack at lvl 60 and double kick or double bash, a shield slam with a backhand shieldslam? I am just getting super moist imagining the WarWarrior in action with its barbaric efficiency in wielding 4 shield and sliding riposte discipline in the mix with defensive disc at the same time and having the shield essentially turtle shell spin while the WarWarrior expertly shoots arrows between the shield and throws axes over the top like mortar shots, obvious with a fungi tunic in case enemies use rain spells because the shield's wouldn't be above him so he could use 20 8 SV all rings and Rallos Ask would just hoedown so much. Yes. Amen. Good.

[maskedmelon]

Not many paragraphs here. Here
































Feel free to use these line breaks liberally in subsequent posts.

[Baler]

netflix for days

LOL nice one. :D

[Ivory]

We already established bard / ranger would be the ultimate archer :3

[Zuranthium]

More interesting is thinking about the ways to further differentiate and balance the 2 classes:

If you look at Wizards and Mages at Level 12, that should serve as the basic template for what their power level should be throughout the whole game. Wizards at that level get a relatively quick-casting high-damage spell that can kill some monsters close to their level in just 3 casts, whereas at Level 12 Mages are still using the considerably less punchy direct damage spells they got at Level 8, but are still the best sustained DPS class in the game at that time because of their pet.

Wizards at Level 12, if not twinked, can cast their big damage spell 6 times before they are out of mana, and then it takes them about 5 minutes to meditate from zero mana to full. This is a fitting level of power for the class, but it's not how it remains in the current game; as they get higher and higher in level, they become slower and less efficient at burning down monsters, and it takes them longer to regen their mana on top of it.

That offensive level of power and specificity needs to be maintained throughout the game. Make the caster classes squishier in comparison to the monsters as you go up and up in level, that balances out the extra utility abilities they continue to get, but you have to keep the offensive power high and make sure to differentiate methods of offense in the way the game is designed. Not just nothing but standing around fighting things with massive HP.

There's much more to be said about different mechanics and specifics that would make the gameplay deeper and more interesting, but that would be biggest first step in differentiating and balancing two offensive caster classes.

[Pokesan]

this is just one humble man's opinion but you'd end up with a wizard with a pet

just IMO

[Daywolf]

We already established bard / ranger would be the ultimate archer :3
ranger/~mage = arcane archer
A bow isn't a musical instrument ;)


Yep, wizard/mage = netflix harry potter addict :p

[Tecmos Deception]

In fact, it would still be on the weaker end of the spectrum.

Mixing the two classes would almost fully cancel out the weaknesses of each class while also compounding strengths.

Solo: mages already solo quite well, but now you've got a mage with snares, stuns, roots, better nukes, and port convenience. Even just adding "root" to a mage makes them a LOT better, let alone adding all of a wizard's spellbook.

Group: yikes. You're talking about the class with great sustained DPS while also being able to pull out the absolute highest burst DPS in the game? While also providing snare, stun, root, port, COTH, resist debuffs, and a quasi-tank of the pet? Yikes. It'd be almost as good as an enchanter ;)

Raid: COTH and port utility with wizard nukes. Pet DPS for situations where it is actually wanted and worthwhile is just icing on the cake.

[Zuranthium]

To be honest, if we're talking about combining the classes without any other game changes, you could give Wizards all of the non-pet Mage spells and the class wouldn't be overpowered at all.

...and then give Druids all of the classic-era Mage pets (starting at Level 9, with the Level 4 pets)...and that class would still be relatively weak at the higher levels.

[JurisDictum]

7514

It would be pretty cool. But it still wouldn't be nearly as godly as the Shaman/Monk/Mage class (Beastlord).

Edit: I think what your post illuminates, is how underpowered Magicians always were; and how underpowered Wizards are until Luclin.

[Crawdad]

I think we should combine Rangers and Cleric.



For obvious reasons.....

Ranger/Cleric in Baulder's Gate is a sight to behold and the quickest I've felt unstoppable in any RPG... great sthuff.

[applesauce25r624]

netflix for days

a bit less netflix i think since you would have to manage pet