The Shadow Archer (And Holy Archer)?

[Ivory]

So, after getting to 55 with a ranger and archery....I've decided to up things and try out my theorized shadow archer.

The idea is by using the pet + agro + a bow ....the shadow archer would be a kiting king! Even outdamaging and out-pacing a ranger in the soloing category!

It's a pretty obvious advantage when an SK is taking reds at 20 easily (or a sand giant at level 10).

The real question is how it maintains this advantage as it ages. Bow cap is 75 for each of them (ouch) ....but at least SK get a couple things that make up for it a little bit (AC drain and STR drain). I theorize it will be a strong soloer till mid 50's (but since they have fear, perhaps even after 50 against summoning mobs?).

Basically, with a decent bow and large enough mana pool...it seems viable.

...........

The next issue is the holy archer....a paladin archer.

Now, this one I have a harder time with. Against undead, sure their nukes would help supplement damage (and they can root, which makes shooting and medding much more possible).

BUT, without the pet or dots or other DD spells....they just don't seem to match a shadow archers potential.

Perhaps if they were to focus very heavily on mana pool and act as a stronger supplemental healer in groups? They suffer from the same lack low skill as a shadow archer....so trying to rely solely on the bow seems more troublesome (especially into 30s-40s...unless they get a skydarkener, then they can hold out till 50's).

But, overall, it just doesn't seem like they have enough damage potential to really be that strong. The healing is nice....but is it enough to make up for the damage issues?

Anyhow....would be curious if anyone else has been focusing on archery as a knight? Shadow archer or holy archer? So far (20) my experience with a shadow archer with a decent bow is they are the strongest soloers in the game as long as they have room to move.....which is pretty interesting.

[Muggens]

So far (20) my experience with a shadow archer with a decent bow is they are the strongest soloers in the game as long as they have room to move.....which is pretty interesting.

? A shadow knight using bow is the strongest soloing class in the game ?
The ranger stuff is pretty cool but not sure if you're serious now.

[syztem]

I don't think this is diablo 2 where you can make up random class builds that dont work.

[Ivory]

? A shadow knight using bow is the strongest soloing class in the game ?
The ranger stuff is pretty cool but not sure if you're serious now.

Till 20 it is. I was mowing through reds in oasis non stop with just a sow and my bow. No other class or twink can do that....not even a fungi tunic warrior or monk would be able to do that.

[Jimjam]

Bows can be very powerful at low level, but I'm surprised they carried you so far on a shadowknight to be honest.

[Ivory]

Bows can be very powerful at low level, but I'm surprised they carried you so far on a shadowknight to be honest.

With pet + dots....I think the bow could carry me to mid 40's at least with just a decent velium bow (sure there is also fear kiting with melee, but I think a bow outshines it in terms of efficiency ....since you are using far less mana and not really sacrificing a ton of damage). Beyond that, if I want to specialize in a bow, I'll probably need an upgrade (and there aren't too many of SKs / Paladins).

[Tecmos Deception]

Till 20 it is. I was mowing through reds in oasis non stop with just a sow and my bow. No other class or twink can do that....not even a fungi tunic warrior or monk would be able to do that.

I'm a bit unclear as to how one class that can use a bow and bum a sow is able to solo reds in oasis, but the other classes that can use bows and bum sows are not able to solo reds in oasis.

What about twinking a barbarian rogue with a bunch of tink bags and throwing boulders and sow pots? THE BOULDER ROGUE!

[Ivory]

I'm a bit unclear as to how one class that can use a bow and bum a sow is able to solo reds in oasis, but the other classes that can use bows and bum sows are not able to solo reds in oasis.

What about twinking a barbarian rogue with a bunch of tink bags and throwing boulders and sow pots? THE BOULDER ROGUE!

They can....but the damage will be a little less and they get into trouble without sow.

It isn't just about till level 20 viability....it is about viability beyond that. Till 50 or even 60!

[Vandil]

Whenever I roll a SK, I usually do a little fletching and have him pull mobs with a bow an arrow until lv9. Then the bow goes in the bank because pulling with spells is more fun.

Fear kiting with a 2-hander is pretty darn effective over anything an SK could do with a bow.

[Danth]

You'll run into two and a half problems. First, your accuracy isn't exactly going to be great as you level due to the low Archery skill cap. Second, the mid-level Shadow Knight pets are garbage. The level 30 and especially the level 39 pets are terrible. The half problem is that Shadow Knights can't use the Summon Arrow bracer, so as the miss rate piles up keeping sufficient arrows on you starts to gobble up excessive amounts of bag space.

Long story short, Archery is mainly used to carry the class to 22 when the Shadow Knight gets Engulfing Darkness and fear-kiting becomes truly useful. Using archery past then serves little point except to say you did or possibly to whittle down that rare outdoor named. You can solo most any non-summoning and non-casting creature via that type of method just like most any kiting class can, but it's slow and uses a great many arrows. Ordinary fear-kiting will typically grant you faster experience per hour unless by some odd happenstance you wind up with a godly bow while using some awful melee weapon.

Get Blood Ember gauntlets; they click a snare at level 45. It's a big help when you're kiting something for a long time and don't have time to meditate much. Shadow Knight snare doesn't last terribly long, so even if you happen to wind up with a Skydarkener, trying to quad would mean constantly running from full-speed packs. It's possible, hypothetically, but doesn't strike me as a fun time.

You REAAALLY want to stick with this? Get to 60 then try to solo Ice Burrowers in West Wastes. They're yellow /con to 60 and have a lot of hit points, but they move slow, can be snared, and don't summon or cast--their AE effect is a melee proc. I've duo'd those before with a Monk and it might be possible to solo them (not sure if you'd out-damage their regen or not) but I don't have the patience.

Danth

[xKoopa]

I don't think this is diablo 2 where you can make up random class builds that dont work.

You must be that guy who doesnt believe in the zeal sorc

[Trungep99]

Paladins have flash of light and root to help keep the mobs away.

SK pets are useless until you get your level 49 one.

Knights lack a high level archery skill. So don't be surprised if they start missing once it stops going up. The dots take a bunch of mana too, so the downtime would suck unless you used the manaless snare gloves at level 45 .

[teai]

anything is possible with enough platinum ;3

[koros]

So, after getting to 55 with a ranger and archery....I've decided to up things and try out my theorized shadow archer.

The idea is by using the pet + agro + a bow ....the shadow archer would be a kiting king! Even outdamaging and out-pacing a ranger in the soloing category!

It's a pretty obvious advantage when an SK is taking reds at 20 easily (or a sand giant at level 10).

The real question is how it maintains this advantage as it ages. Bow cap is 75 for each of them (ouch) ....but at least SK get a couple things that make up for it a little bit (AC drain and STR drain). I theorize it will be a strong soloer till mid 50's (but since they have fear, perhaps even after 50 against summoning mobs?).

Basically, with a decent bow and large enough mana pool...it seems viable.

...........

The next issue is the holy archer....a paladin archer.

Now, this one I have a harder time with. Against undead, sure their nukes would help supplement damage (and they can root, which makes shooting and medding much more possible).

BUT, without the pet or dots or other DD spells....they just don't seem to match a shadow archers potential.

Perhaps if they were to focus very heavily on mana pool and act as a stronger supplemental healer in groups? They suffer from the same lack low skill as a shadow archer....so trying to rely solely on the bow seems more troublesome (especially into 30s-40s...unless they get a skydarkener, then they can hold out till 50's).

But, overall, it just doesn't seem like they have enough damage potential to really be that strong. The healing is nice....but is it enough to make up for the damage issues?

Anyhow....would be curious if anyone else has been focusing on archery as a knight? Shadow archer or holy archer? So far (20) my experience with a shadow archer with a decent bow is they are the strongest soloers in the game as long as they have room to move.....which is pretty interesting.

What exactly are you high on with all these garbage posts?

[koros]

Till 20 it is. I was mowing through reds in oasis non stop with just a sow and my bow. No other class or twink can do that....not even a fungi tunic warrior or monk would be able to do that.

If you're going to aggro kite, which isn't fast xp mind you, a level 20 mage or necro pet will "mow" through reds a lot faster than a level 8 necro pet + bow.

[Ivory]

If you're going to aggro kite, which isn't fast xp mind you, a level 20 mage or necro pet will "mow" through reds a lot faster than a level 8 necro pet + bow.

For a necro or mage to outdamage / outtaunt their pets....they need to do a LOT of casting. Necros have an easier time, but as the pets damage goes up....they still struggle a lot with keeping the agro.

[Videri]

For a necro or mage to outdamage / outtaunt their pets....they need to do a LOT of casting. Necros have an easier time, but as the pets damage goes up....they still struggle a lot with keeping the agro.

...And that leads us to our next class build, the Necbowmancer!

[Ivory]

...And that leads us to our next class build, the Necbowmancer!

I woulda if they could use bows!!!

Instead I did a necbrawlmancer a while ago!! Velium brawl stick + focusing on AC and dex = a necromancer that can out-tank its pet easily while dishing out decent melee damage :o

Necromancers vampiric embrace is WAY stronger than the SK version...and necromancers get a low level self damage shield.....so it really is pretty effective for non stop fighting.

Took it to level 50 and then it started to drop off as things began hitting too hard to tank as efficiently solo. Was one of the fastest characters to level to 50....could just plow through so much stuff non stop. I was holding the entire are above the window room in sol b from 40's up (it is like 13 or 14 spawns :P)

[maskedmelon]

...And that leads us to our next class build, the Necbowmancer!

Lol

[Trungep99]

I woulda if they could use bows!!!

Instead I did a necbrawlmancer a while ago!! Velium brawl stick + focusing on AC and dex = a necromancer that can out-tank its pet easily while dishing out decent melee damage :o

Necromancers vampiric embrace is WAY stronger than the SK version...and necromancers get a low level self damage shield.....so it really is pretty effective for non stop fighting.

Took it to level 50 and then it started to drop off as things began hitting too hard to tank as efficiently solo. Was one of the fastest characters to level to 50....could just plow through so much stuff non stop. I was holding the entire are above the window room in sol b from 40's up (it is like 13 or 14 spawns :P)

Nah Sk vamp embrace is same spell and sk's get an upgrade to it at lvl 55

[Ivory]

Nah Sk vamp embrace is same spell and sk's get an upgrade to it at lvl 55

Same spell, different effect for the different classes :P

[nothsa]

might do a kite video of an iceburrow on my paladin with my bow , would be intrestring

[Subidoo]

Aha, seen you kiting those DW crocs in oasis in my shaman, Shamanana. I was so confused at first, lol.

[Trungep99]

might do a kite video of an iceburrow on my paladin with my bow , would be intrestring

Do they summon?

[RDawg816]

Do they summon?
Nope.

[port9001]

In my mind the failure of this plan hinges on low skill caps for Archery. 75 is terrible and will make for a lot of misses in the 30's and beyond. It's a real shame cause I really enjoy these off the wall class strategies. Unfortunately the game is not very supportive of this one. Of the 2 non-Ranger classes that have a decent cap (Warrior & Rogue), both are straight melee classes that don't really bring anything interesting to the table.

[Jimjam]

Warrior's could bring something interesting to the table for bow soloing;

They could use a blind spell (http://wiki.project1999.com/Blazing_Breastplate_of_Fennin_Ro , http://wiki.project1999.com/Bioluminescent_Orb) to keep from tanking.

They could then dps with bow. To supplement DPS they could spam nuke clicky between bow shots http://wiki.project1999.com/Blazing_Bracer_of_Fennin_Ro

[Cecily]

Warriors can get some impressive crips with bows too. Rogues can snare poison.

[Ivory]

Warrior's could bring something interesting to the table for bow soloing;

They could use a blind spell (http://wiki.project1999.com/Blazing_Breastplate_of_Fennin_Ro , http://wiki.project1999.com/Bioluminescent_Orb) to keep from tanking.

They could then dps with bow. To supplement DPS they could spam nuke clicky between bow shots http://wiki.project1999.com/Blazing_Bracer_of_Fennin_Ro

Yea that would work pre-50...kind of. But it would require HUGE amount of twinking to make happen. And the damage is still under shadow archer or ranger.

After 50 it drops off in its ability to keep up with rangers bow damage.

Shadow archers cap at 75 skill pre 50 (After 50 they catch up in bow skill though)....BUT it can be made up with a bit with their spells.

Siphon Strength, grim aura, shadow vortex, shroud of hate....these are all spells that help boost bows attack rating a bit (or lower the mobs ac you are fighting) to try and keep up with the skill difference.

If you are really good at keeping up with STR , you will also give your bow a lot better attack rating to keep up some to make up for loss of attack rating ups from just skills.

So, it isn't quite as good as ranger...but it still seems like it is serviceable. And the pet blasts ahead in terms of damage.

Then, if you can get a skydarkener at some point....the damage would boost a ton. The proc on it is really really nice if you focus on dex (and works on misses too). So, getting that would make up for everything.

[port9001]

What's skill cap after 50? I think the wiki needs updating cause it says 75 always

http://wiki.project1999.com/Archery

Ivory, with all your archery experience you should update this page.

[William_Munny15]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Gloomwater_Bow is this item in the game? looks like it might be post revamp, but could make for alot of fun for a warrior doing some bow keeling!

[Ivory]

What's skill cap after 50? I think the wiki needs updating cause it says 75 always

http://wiki.project1999.com/Archery

Ivory, with all your archery experience you should update this page.

But the SK page says 175 after 50? http://wiki.project1999.com/Shadow_Knight

Yea, that archery page is way out of date....it is even showing DEX as the main attribute for bow damage instead of STR as it is on this server.

[Izmael]

Till 20 it is. I was mowing through reds in oasis non stop with just a sow and my bow. No other class or twink can do that....not even a fungi tunic warrior or monk would be able to do that.

A lvl 20 bard can pull 100 lvl 25ish reds and win by killing every last one of them a few minutes later. :)

[georgie]

I just read the op. But seriously came up with Bow kiting instead of fear kiting? Sounds like serious xp loss

[phacemeltar]

inb4 enchanter rune/stun tank

[jolanar]

I can't even.

[Ivory]

Update report - It is very strong :3 Level 24 I been soloin stuff in Overthere near the skyfire mountains (level 30-35 monsters). My spells can't even hit them....but doesn't matter since I got a skeleton pet, sow, and a bow :D

I was also soloing in Lake of Ill omen near a higher level necromancer....killing yellows (stuff he was fighting)....I could kill them faster over a period, since I didn't have downtime.

Shadow Archery is, as I expected, stronger than a ranger in soloing because of the pet. So far the lower skill in archery hasn't been a serious problem (and being able to reliably hit things so much higher level than me already means I know I will be able to keep it up until at least 40-45....and of course my pet will be getting a lot stronger along the way).

[demokatt]

How does the pet help? SK pets usually die in a few hits from a red mob? All classes can get a sow and use bow, I dont get why SK is better?

[isoka]

As long as SK builds more agro than the pet, pet won't take hits. So its damage adds up to the bow damage.

That being said, am not very appealed by the archery strategy.

[Ivory]

How does the pet help? SK pets usually die in a few hits from a red mob? All classes can get a sow and use bow, I dont get why SK is better?

SK pet is more like a nice constant DOT on the mob as you run around archering.

Well, not all classes can use a bow.

Ranger (very good archer, root + dot + archery is very valid and they get access to high end bows. They also get double damage at 51 in groups, and get trueshot....the strongest pure archer in the game)

Warrior .....no spells means lower utility. They get decent skill with archery (2nd only to rangers) and can critical hit like rangers. The no spells mean they ONLY rely on archery though. And they do not get access to the skydarkener (which is one of the best bows in the game, especially 40-60 for exping). BUT, they do get the bow of the huntsman, which is a fairly decent DPS bow with a proc (war/rng only).....just their lack of spells and ONLY relying on bow damage wouldn't be fun. They also can't team up as well, since they don't have a ranged taunt ....so keeping agro and hate-kiting for a group won't work.

Rogue - Like the warrior, high bow skill, only they get access to poisons (but lose the ability to critical hit). Poison archery is theoretically possible to supplement archery damage ....BUT it is SOOOO expensive. Trying to use snare poisons or DD poisons or anything like that constantly while hunting would bankrupt anyone. They get a nice rogue only bow though, but it doesn't match bow of the huntsman or the skydarkener.

Paladin - Theoretically I could see this working....especially when fighting undead and using nukes to supplement damage (and root + meditating to let them cast more). Their damage output isn't so great though...since their skills with a bow are pretty bad (along with SK). And since they rely mostly on straight bow damage.....it wouldn't be the most ideal. They get access to some hate-kite spells (and blind kiting), so would maybe be ok when grouping up with a magician or something....but no snare.....which makes it harder.

Shadow Knight - Uniquely very suited to archery....which is why I theorized they would even out-perform a ranger given their skillsets (at least to 50, but I'm starting to think they could match a ranger even to 60). Pets + dots give a HUGE boost to damage. They are also able to hate-kite as well as a ranger (disease cloud or shadow vortex are HUGE agro draws, and they have snare spells, making them able to out-taunt most other players or pets). If they get in trouble, FD let's them reset a lot easier (handy for plane of mischief hunting starting at 46~!). Since they get access to the skydarkener, they are able to compete on the high end bows front (and AE kite, like ranger and paladins).

Really it would be a crime to underestimate pets .....sure they miss more often, but later on the pets start to get a lot stronger. Relying on bow damage alone (even for a ranger) isn't the best strategy. You NEED spells or something else to supplement your damage (even AE kiting, a rangers low level AE spell is welcome). But the pets give SKs an edge in mana-free sustained damage on top of their bow. Only place pets break down is on raids with dragons that AE (pets would die too fast)...so rangers win there in terms of raid DPS (trueshot + double damage, and even using BFG if they get lazy).

The only BIG downside with SK is that they don't get the tolans bracer (being able to summon arrows is nice).....and since there are few arrow vendors around, their bad faction makes restocking a little bit more annoying. Still, with some faction work, you can fix that and just carry around a LOT of bags and be mindful of where arrow vendors are. Not really the biggest problem (just becomes more of one on long hunting trips into dungeons or something like that).

So......yea....rangers and SKs....either one is very valid for a primary archer.

[thewrush]

Don't let these naysayers sway your strategy. Keep on Shadow Archering(sp?) Question though. Is it much slower than fear kiting?

[Ivory]

I find it faster than fear kiting so far....since

1) You don't get hit when fear breaks and need to re-cast it while being hit

2) You don't use much mana, so no need to med much.

So, while per kill is maybe a little slower, you can kill more over a 30 minute period (and more mindless, since you don't need to pay much attention to make sure you are still hitting it....I usually watch stuff in the other window while kiting).

[demokatt]

Do you have someone summon arrow for you or do you fletch them?

[Ivory]

Do you have someone summon arrow for you or do you fletch them?

Neither :P ((Though if a mage passes by and wants to toss me a couple hundred arrows....I don't complain)).

http://wiki.project1999.com/Arrow

As a dark elf SK it took me a little bit to fix my commonlands arrow vendor faction....but wasn't too bad.

Archers gotta know their arrow oasis spots :D So they can plan ahead where to hunt and do detours to restock between hunting (commonlands is one of the best since it is an easy teleport hub. Overthere is also really handy and can take you from 20-40+ if you want).

[demokatt]

Ahh yeah the difference between 1 and 3 damage arrows is perhaps negligable?

[Ivory]

Yea, 2 extra damage on a bow is the same as 1 extra damage on a melee weapon....it's nice, but not really going to make a huge difference. Especially as a shadow archer where your damage is spread over more sources.

[thewrush]

Snare, disease cloud, send pet, plink arrows, profit?

[Trungep99]

So did you stack up on dex gear ? I suppose the rest of the stats are useless other than mana related ones.

[Vandil]

My 30 DESK is sitting on a rock somewhere in the Rathe Mountains for the past two months. I think I might log him in and grab his bow from the bank, just to test your theory.

[Ivory]

So did you stack up on dex gear ? I suppose the rest of the stats are useless other than mana related ones.

STR is the primary stat for bows on this server.... so max STR first.

Dex is VERY important though if you ever get a skydarkener (which paladin / sk can use). It is THE BEST bow for an sk / paladin to use if they primary archery. That is the big secret I would count on for later game to keep up with archery (50+).

And yea, more mana is nice....but really mana just increases your max pool, which is useless for efficiency hunting (it is more about mana regeneration at that point).

But there are some nice archery items. Like the 36% haste sword, a good fleeting quiver (20% haste), and other things like that (using a shield with high STR for example).

[Trungep99]

STR is the primary stat for bows on this server.... so max STR first.


i believe wiki says dex gives archery its primary attack damage (not visible in stats window), not str.

I am not a dev, so I can't confirm if this is true on p99

[Ivory]

Yup...should be dex...but it's STR here....

[Trungep99]

Yup...should be dex...but it's STR here....

How can we confirm wiki is wrong?

[maskedmelon]

How can we confirm wiki is wrong?

By shooting arrows at at thing while you have high Dex and then Doing it again with high str instead ^^

[xKoopa]

By shooting arrows at at thing while you have high Dex and then Doing it again with high str instead ^^

Yup rosen has already done this and archery dmg is str based here

[demokatt]

Pulling the string hard requires high strength :D

[skarlorn]

You are one of my favorite players/posters Ivory

[Farzo]

Good fun thread lol.

Reminds me of the old times before min-maxers

[GreldorEQ]

I have yet to be successful to raise archery past 75. I am currently lvl 53, anyone else know of a Knight over skill 75 in Archery?

EDIT: Went to trainer, cannot yet train above 75 at level 53.

[Lorian]

What about twinking a barbarian rogue with a bunch of tink bags and throwing boulders and sow pots? THE BOULDER ROGUE!

Replace the boulders with pouches of mistletoe powder THE BEAST ROGUE

[Farzo]

I have yet to be successful to raise archery past 75. I am currently lvl 53, anyone else know of a Knight over skill 75 in Archery?

EDIT: Went to trainer, cannot yet train above 75 at level 53.

And you never will -- that's as high as hybrids can get.

[demokatt]

In that case you must have an almost bizarre fetish for using bows if you find it useful on an SK with max skill 75. I have 215 on my Ranger and I think I miss too much :-)

[RDawg816]

In that case you must have an almost bizarre fetish for using bows if you find it useful on an SK
I'm sure a lot of people would agree with you. I'm not even sure Ivory would deny it.... if everyone was a min-maxer, though, you wouldn't admit to having a ranger.... :p

[demokatt]

Nice comeback! :-)

[seanidor]

Hehe, a holy archer. I remember when I solo'ed a hill giant in the karana's at level 20. I think it took me over 30 minutes and around 8 stacks of arrows before the thing finally died. It was worth it though, it had over 30 plat! :p

[vouss]

Xpd like this 4 years ago during classic. It's not that great but it's ok if you have no friends or want to master ate while you xp

[Lhancelot]

So what happened? I am curious if the skill cap goes above 75, and if not, if that makes using the bow as bas as people claim it will if the skill does not cap?

Also, what bow are you using, Ivory?

Ivory, I love the fact you think outside the box and try to apply unorthodox strategies in the game regardless what some discouraging elitists try to tell you.

Kudos to you!

P.S. Oh, I was thinking wouldn't it have made more sense to go with an ogre shadow archer seeing how much more strength they start with? Nevermind, that's the min/max in me thinking too hard here. :)